 First of all, a warm welcome to our guests and audience. We at the Rosenberg Foundation buses are very proud to be co-organizers of this very important webinar series. The last year, Helmut, who is repertory in the European Parliament on the Trade Agreement between the EU and Africa, mentioned the title EU in listening mode. For the first time in a preparatory meeting, it was clear to us that we wanted to talk a bit. An event that takes into consideration the concerns, the criticism, but also the visions of our colleagues from the so-called Global Solve is exactly what we as a foundation have set as an important goal. This is a good opportunity to talk about fair and equitable trade in terms of discipline, and hopefully also to pour it into a legislative text. The two previous events were a success from our point of view, and I'm sure the success will be repeated today and also next week. Therefore, I would like to thank Helmut for the good cooperation, and I would also like to hand over to him, who will be the moderator of this event. Thank you, Helmut, the floor is yours. Thank you, Arif, and thank you for the Rosenberg Foundation for co-hosting this webinar. And you said already that this is a part of a series we are dedicating to the different regional developments at the African continent, dealing with challenges and with tasks for rethinking how the trade, commercial, investment relationship between the European Union and Africa must be shaped in the 21st century. So we have to overcome, of course, still it's one or the other corner to be found post-colonial approach that we should overcome this thinking. And I guess everybody is agreeing, including in the European Union, that our continents are so much linked in view of the challenges of the next 20, 30, 40 years. So the 21st century needs different answers to shaping the economies, to shape the governance structures, to enable citizens to participate in the decision-making. And so the report I'm working on on behalf of the International Trade Committee for the European Parliament concerning the trade and investment relations is linked to this task. So a young generation at the African continent expects, of course, new answers from both from your governments in the different regions from the states of the African Union, but of course also for the trading partner, being the European Union, the 27th member states, other European countries, being the United States, China, Russia... So are we all using the voice? Whoever, do you hear me? I hope so, yeah. So maybe you can unmute who is not speaking would be helpful. And so this is the question. And therefore I really... Helmut, just one second, we can't hear you. I'm not sure what the technical issue now is, but we are trying to fix it. Do you hear me now? Now we can hear you, yeah. We didn't get your last minute speech. Okay. So sorry, I said that I really looking forward to the interesting exchange of view with all the panelists, which I will introduce one after the other in our panel debate. But let me make one specific aspect to raise the head being the dignity revolution in your countries in the northern part of Africa, belonging also to the Mediterranean Union. Almost nobody is today speaking about the Mediterranean Union in the European Union. So this project is somehow signed, it disappeared from the public attendance, but of course all the problems or the task for the Mediterranean Union for accompanying a partnership relationship between the European Union and the African countries is of course on the stake. So what is your analysis of the outcome of the dignity revolution where we are today? What does it mean for shaping the future relationship between the European Union and the North African countries and therefore I would give the floor immediately to Dr. Saka El-Nua, he is visiting post-doctorate fellow from the Global Scholarly Dialogue Program of the Luxembourg Foundation. He is also from the Otosua Institute of Political Science at the Frey University in Berlin. And I have asked him in particular to speak on the nexus of EU Africa and intra-African trade relations and the need for agricultural policy transformation as well as to cover possibilities of a just transition in the agriculture sectors in Algeria, Egypt, Morocco and Tunisia in particular. Dr. Saka El-Nua, the floor is yours. Thank you very much. Try to keep 10 minutes because our experience is always the time, the pressure at the end of the day. We also have the chance also to listen and to discuss. So the floor is yours. Okay, thank you. I just start by sharing my screen. Put it in this way. So you see my presentation now? As we see a presentation and I have also to make a mark that there is a French translation available in the chat room. Okay. As I said, thank you for the invitation. In this presentation, I discussed the relationship between trade agreement and the possibility of building a local build just transition for North African agriculture. I would like to share some general idea and raise question and generate a discussion. So I try to make it short to have more discussion. The presentation is organized in three main parties. First, I will give a small idea about just transition from a global South Pacific perspective. Then I talk about the evolution of agriculture policy dynamics in North Africa and the European trade agreements impact on North African food system. And finally, I elaborate some suggestion to build a just transition for North African agriculture. Just transition referred to a set of prancy process and practice that create shift away from an extractive economy toward a global equal low carbon economy. And in the last decade, there is more debate about the just transition increasingly moved through wide sector and circle to build a global just transition and rethinking the slogan of no one will be left behind in a more exclusive and radical way. In this context, I described the challenge and opportunities of a just transition of agriculture in North Africa to propose a kind of peoples based just transition in agriculture. The agriculture policy in North Africa went through three main states. The post-colonial period was characterized by an increase in the state rules in supporting the agriculture sector. And then in 70s and 80s, North African countries were reducing the rule of the state supporting the transformation, the transition to agribusiness and export agriculture. And these go with a marginalization of small farmers and rural population. It's clear that during this period where we live now, it's within a new liberal agriculture policy, the promise of market-based food security in the region is not a 10. And the actual food agriculture and ecological system are in crisis. Now we talk about how the trade agreement with Europe have evolved since 2004 and after 2011, the European Union proposed deep and comprehensive free trade agreement to support improving the agriculture export, capacity in North African countries, reaching Europe standards and facilitating the access of southern product to the European market. Europe policy also focused on supporting development through trade. And just as an example, when we look at the Egyptian case, the vegetable and the fruits have been the main agriculture exports to Europe. However, grain and sugar are imported from Europe to Egypt. The structure is presented here. And to understand very well who are the winners and losers of trade, we need to look at all food system elements in both sides, not only focus on macroeconomical statistics, but look at all elements of a food system. So we can see that the agriculture export from the region to Europe are high nutrition, nutritional value and the interest of the food transformation of Europe. The exported fruits and vegetable are labor and resource intensive product and the trade organization increased the competition among North African countries to access the European market. On the contrary, European weight and sugar product do not support the food transformation of the region. Just I give another example from Egypt. Although Egypt is considered as a success story in the export, the rate of malnutrition among children raised to a level similar to a country emerged from civil war. It's about 31% of children. And this number is according to FB report out in 2019. So the trade agreement integrated regional agriculture in the European plan and agenda. The agenda was set by Europe and the region country have to adopt with this agenda. While the policy in Europe support European farmers and the transformation of the Europe food system, for example, the cap represent 31% of the actual European budget. The agreement doesn't help transform the transformation of region food system into a sustainable system that realized the farm to for concept adopted by Europe for its citizens. The allocating water, land, energy and labor power in order to produce vegetable and fruits for Europe keep these countries health and ecological crisis generated. So despite the crisis and the impact of trade on the actual situation of the food system in the region, there is an accelerating growth in the restoration of local food system and the building of agroecological and regenerative agriculture practice. Like there is many organization in multi-level working in different aspects of agroecology. I give some example like North African food network, food sovereignty networks, organic organization association and so on. We assume here that the building of a just transition depend on the ability of these actors and practice to develop network and the possibility of obtaining support. A regional just transition in agriculture requires delinked from European trade policy and agenda set by powerful actors developing food sovereignty networks and ending the marginalization of small and medium farmers. To conclude, agriculture just transition is embedded into the desire and work of many people that need to be visible and to develop. This will not be going to done without supporting local food, local small farmer rebuild the food system in local basis to relate to the local demand and needs and problems. And finally, engaged in an exclusive global people, new green deal and global just transition that not leave really anyone behind. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Anur for this remarks. I hope we are see each other again. I want to welcome in our webinar also the MEPC Arkeem Schuster and Daniel Buder, who are following the debate. I also want to welcome the former chair of the International Trade Committee in the department Helmut Markov. And a lot of other representatives from civil society organizations here in Brussels, are complying with these, what is their shaping of the bilateral relationship EU Africa, for example, Mark Maes and Jane Nalunga from Seattle, New Uganda. So it is okay that we have such a wide range of followers and visitors to our webinar because there is of course a key challenge to all of us coming from the decision of the African Union to set up the African continent, the free trade area. And the CFTA has of course, to play a significant role in the future shape or in the shaping of the future relationship between the European Union and African countries, including the North African region. And therefore I would like to invite engineer Mansoor Ahmed, chairman of the Pan African Manufacturers Association, the Parma to come in with his contribution to our debate on trade and Africa's industrialization agenda. What role for the EU, what role for the AF50A UC? Thank you very much, thank you very much Helmut. I hope we can all hear me, thank you. Well, I think first of all, the Pan African Manufacturers Association as its name implies is a platform which is supported by the African Union Commission and other African institutions aimed at working with the AFCFTA, the African Continental Free Trade Area Agreement in order to promote one of the key pillars of economic success, which is the growth of the African manufacturing sector. I believe that it does not require any extensive research to define, to determine that today in today's economy value addition or value creation through transformation of materials into products is indeed the basis of wealth creation and therefore the creation of prosperity for people. And trade in fact cannot be said to be fair and equitable unless the trading partners enjoy increasing value creation in their territories as a result of the trade and economic relations. To that extent, I think if we now look back on the relationship between Europe and Africa in terms of economic relations and trade, it is very clear that the Africa, European trading relationship and indeed general economic relationship cannot be said to be a fit for purpose in the sense that clearly the parties involved in the relationship have not gained, have not been able to develop increase in value addition in order to grow their economies, to grow wealth and therefore to develop that, to create human development for the people. And I think that is the major objective of the African continental pre-trade area agreement to do two things. First of all, to ensure that within Africa, as we all know, the different 54, 55 different countries in Africa have acted in almost independent and often conflicting relationship in terms of the economic activities. And we don't want to go into the history of that, but it is clear that given the resources available to the various countries, given the dynamics of today's economic activity, it is only through a more collaborative and cooperative relationship within Africa that the value creation in the various territories and countries of Africa can be significantly enhanced and therefore the economies of these territories can be significantly enhanced. And in addition to that, of course, the economic position or the position of Africa in the global economic setup, and particularly in global trade, clearly has simply not been commensurate with the potential of Africa's contribution to global wealth creation and certainly to the needs of its people. Now, I think we all know now today that given the today's dynamics, especially with regards to the with regards to the distribution of the global community, with regards to, I'm trying to catch the word, with regards to growth of population, it is clear that Africa presents both a huge challenge but also a huge opportunity, not just for Africa but for the world as a whole, because given the growing population and the demographics, the global demographics today, if Africa continues to lag behind, it means the increasingly more productive young population of Africa will be unable to make the contribution to the growth of global wealth and global prosperity. Indeed, we'll remain a burden to the global population. Now, such burden of course, especially in the light of the fact that other regions, especially in Europe, the demographic is heading in the different direction. What will create a more positive trajectory is an arrangement which enables the older, the ageing population to work more closely with the younger population of Africa in order to boost the productivity of the global population or of the population of the two regions. So I believe that if we start with this assumption that trade and economic relations over the past, perhaps century between Europe and Africa, if they continue on the basis of the present trend, the present trajectory, we see that value will continue to be increased and created in Europe, for instance, whereas the pace of development of capacity to create value in Africa will continue to decline. And yet this is the region that will have the demographics to increase the capacity of both regions. So the African Manufacturers Association is set to promote the rebalancing of this trading agreement. That means continuing relationship between Europe and Africa must target increasing value creation in Africa and today value creation is mostly through increasing manufacturing and industrialization. So to that, if in Europe's interest to work with Africa to grow the capacity of Africa to increase overall productivity and production. So value chain, if you like harmonization or what some people say value integration which enables more value to be created in Africa in the context of the current overall relationship of the development value chain between Africa and Europe must be re-targeted and re-engineered to create more value in Africa. And I think this simply means we must look at how we invest across the two continents. We must look at what capacities and what will be the dynamics of this joint investment. I believe there had been discussions on reviewing the investment code in Africa and this is part of the AFCFTA goals in a way that enables Europe and Africa to continue to invest, especially to continue to grow investment in Africa in a way that moves us in the direction of greater value creation in Africa therefore improving the manufacturing capacity both in terms of its technology level as well as in terms of its scale. Because clearly trade happens between countries when perhaps the scale of output of both countries in the items in which they trade in the exchange are to a large extent more equitable. To that extent, what we see as very necessary in the coming decades is that an ecosystem or to create a framework for relationships that enhances the contribution of African nations and African people to the overall productivity of the two regions. And I think it is in this context that I see the need for significant re-engineering and reconstruction of the EU-Africa relations, economic relations, as well as trade relations. Now, there are many ways in which this can be done, of course, first and play by African countries looking at relationships that will engender increase in value creation in respect of where the investment is coming from. I think this is why perhaps many people are now looking at the China-African relationship as a model. I personally don't think it's a good model but I think in the circumstances where more investment, for instance, coming from that region is going into value creating activities will probably be more productive, more positive to Africa. Then in the current relationship which has for many, many decades created a situation where the manufacturing capacities, capacity in Africa is based on a model that today we see as fill and finish. And I think the current concern with the COVID vaccine has clearly created this issue that if we want an increase in prosperity for both Europe and Africa, we must move from fill and finish as a model of manufacturing and industrialization to a new model where we actually exchange value at different points of the value chain. Let me give a quick example just to highlight what I'm trying to say. Kopa. Kopa is produced in say the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Nigeria has one of the largest Kopa wire or Kopa cable production capacities in Africa. Now, what is happening today is that Nigeria is not able to get maximum value from its capacity because it is now relying on import of say Kopa rods or even the earlier product that goes to produce Kopa rods called Kopa custard. And ultimately the value in Kopa cable is significantly less than it can gain if it is also producing Kopa rods and perhaps custard. Now, Congo Republic, the Democratic Republic of the Congo is one of the major producers of Kopa ore in the world. Yet it's Kopa ore is being shipped out to other regions at just the ore level. And this is 20% of the value of the Kopa industry. Now, if for instance, we can create an investment code that allows more investment in Congo Republic. For instance, in producing the Kopa custard or the produce the Kopa cable, Congo and the value created in able to produce Kopa cables that indeed will compete globally and able to bring the price of Kopa cable down. And we know today that the demand for Kopa cables is particularly if we look at the way modern transport technology is going with the electric cars and so on and so forth. So to that extent, there is two tremendous advantages for Europe if this value chain restructure is done in a way that So I think we have lost you. Can you repeat? At the front to Kopa Kopa Movalu and the next Kopa rod to Kopa lower cost and lower price. The gains from this value chain that going forward and in Africa really would need to work together to direct policies and regulatory practices in such a way that this kind of new value chain integration is enabled. And I believe this is where in my view, trade and relationships, economic relationships between Europe and Africa will be the most beneficial for both parties. Indeed, I think one can go beyond Africa will be on Europe and Africa. I believe that a more equitable trade and a more equitable value chain integration across the globe will in fact be perhaps one of the most sensible developments in the global economy. Because by doing that, we're going to create an increasing capacity not only in terms of value, increasing capacity to create employment and more meaningful employment. And this will be an advantage for all parties. If we do that, even if we take one issue, that is it will now create of younger African people going into Europe can now stay in Africa. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Unfortunately, we had some problems with the communications. Sometimes we had lost your explanation on how the value chains have to be shaped, but probably we come back to this in the further debate. And I would just now invite Mahabbeen Gadda from the economic program of the Luxembourg Foundation Office in Tunis to give us some, what you said, understanding about how to achieve the economic and monetary sovereignty in the 21st century Africa. And I want to announce already that we have a distinguished guest with us also in this panel, Mrs. Nela Eichhorn from the GG Trade of the EU Commission. She is head of the unit, Southern Neighbors, Middle East, Turkey, Russia and Central Asia. And she has been ready to give us a first short reply how to say the answer to all the three introductory speeches and briefings and so that we can afterwards come into the debate. So, Mahab, the floor is yours. You have to unmute. Thank you very much, Helmut. It's my pleasure to be with you to discuss on this issue. I would like to thank the European Parliament and the Luxembourg Foundation, my colleagues in Brussels for having invited me to this discussion. I'm sorry I will switch to French because I'm more fluent in French, so I will better express myself. So, I will let you just the time to switch the channel. So, I will... I have submitted my presentation. My presentation bears the title Regaining Economic and Monetary Sovereignty in the 21st Century Africa. We need for that to change in the investment and the trade relation between the EU and Africa. And I hope that in the course of the ensuing discussion, we will try and hear more the voice of the population in the civil population in African countries as to bring about a fairer cooperation serving the interests of all, including those African people. I would like to start by saying this. Africa has the capacity to offer decent quality of life to all its inhabitants. We can offer universal public services, healthcare, education, but also guarantee employment to everyone who wants to stay in their home countries and work there and guarantee a social system with decent income to vulnerable people and to those who cannot work for a variety of reasons. But the problem of Africa is dozens of years of colonial post-colonial dismemberment, as was repeated earlier on, which has been exacerbated by economic liberalisation which has plunged African countries into a vicious circle which has been supported by a number of structural problems. All the countries have their own specific situation. Algeria is not Ethiopia, Nigeria is not South Africa. But the most recurrent problems, which are amicably soared on the head of populations and their governments, are the lack of food sovereignty today. As our colleague very correctly indicated, a lack of food sovereignty in all African countries and especially in the countries of Northern Africa, a lack of energy sovereignty and as was indicated a moment ago, manufacturing industries and extractive industries with low value added are part of an international division of labour which is actually based on low wage labour, very often female labour and with intellectual property being kept in the global north to such an extent that there was not an adequate transfer of technology with the impossibility for African countries to catch up. There is also a lack of monetary sovereignty. That's the fourth point. So the development model has been based on extractive industries, on the export of raw materials, on tourism and on foreign direct investments. A number of African countries, including Tunisia, have chosen to use that development route by liberalizing their trade and investment. We use low-value manufacturing industries. We export some agricultural produce, such as olive oil or citrus fruits. But we offer a lot of advantages, conditions to private investors, which reduces the tax income of countries and which puts all our African countries in competition between themselves. They may be at times blacklisted by European countries as being engaged in tax dumping. The condition is very low wages, very poor working conditions. The countries end up having to subsidize commodities in order to try and guarantee a minimum living standard to their low-paid citizens. We also need to borrow in foreign currencies in order to artificially stabilize the national currency. Indatedness is a way to cope with the lack of balance of a trade balance, but caused by the overarching model where products are being exported to the North. And of course, the debt is very much supported by the creditors using a number of terms and conditions which reinforce the structural status quo based on austerity policies. And such austerity policies are cut in subsidies, pressure on wages, privatizing utilities, an unfair taxation which affects populations more than companies. Such policies create economic and social exclusion and increase the poverty rate, the crime rate, and lead those populations to engage in the informal economy to move out and to migrate to European countries in search of a better life. And so those countries need to come up with a security solution and are increasingly involved in police and enforcement work with the support in terms of consulting, but also in terms of equipment from the North. A number of European countries have used of this setup for quite a number of years for France, Italy, Germany, and Spain. It is a very profitable business model, especially after the establishment of the Common Agricultural Policy and the Association Agreement and the establishment of quota systems and the increase in non-tariff barriers. African countries had to specialize in the products which do not meet the need for basic income, which do not meet the requirement for economic development. They will export shrimps, oysters, coffee, olive oil, citrus fruits. Some countries are in a very bad situation in terms of the water management. Drought is a problem. And they need to import feed, but also weed gas fuel industrial components in order to fuel the economy and continue day in, day out to feed their populations. And after 2011, after the revolutions, because the question was asked, where we stand after the Dignity Revolution, well, we hope that things would have changed. The same answer was provided by Europe and especially by the European Commission in terms of the free trade, the deep and comprehensive free trade agreements. Those free trade agreements were very much in favor of Europe, guaranteeing a good protection of IPR for Europe, imposing European standards without assessing the costs and consequences on local producers. And of course, the consequences in terms of food sovereignty. The liberalization of the energy sector, especially, access to the renewable energy market for European companies in order for that energy to be exported to Europe, which of course doesn't serve our own problem in terms of the energy deficit, which we continue to suffer. And of course, borders are increasingly closed. Security-based collaboration between countries is based on the protection of security interests in Europe and not on the needs of populations. And it's true to say that the discussions on new free trade agreements are stopped thanks to the mobilization of civil society because of a change in the power balance. But that logic, which I have just repeated, remains very much present in any cooperation agreement, which is considered today in any sort of macro-financial assistance. Those underlying terms of conditions continue to exist before any bilateral or multilateral agreement is adopted. But officially, what the commission is saying is very much the promotion of new quotas out of quota. Oliver granted to Tunisia recently. Less than 4% of those quotas actually came to benefit Tunisia. The commission is mentioning a number of amounts promised for development aid, but not money which is actually paid to those countries. A lot is being said about the democratic success story, job promotion, and the SDGs. And the need to develop a peace and prosperity area. But the data, their reality for the population on the ground is very far removed from those aspirations. I would just give you a few figures to make my case between 2015 and 2030, 39,000 engineers and 3,300 doctors left Tunisia. The main country of departure was France. 70% said that the conditions of work were inadopted locally. A lot said that there was a lack of security in hospitals. And a third reason given by those leaving the country was poor wages and salaries. So austerity as opposed by all corporation agreements, all loan agreements, or all macro-finance agreements in by the IMF, all of those terms and conditions have actually driven down the country. That austerity has had an impact on the provision of decent public services. In the last 10 years, between 10,000 to 15,000 nurses left Tunisia, going especially to Germany. In June-July 2021, over 20,000 people died due to a lack of money to buy vaccines, a lack of beds, a lack of oxygen, and a lack of staff in public hospitals. It's only after the crisis, after those numbers reached such proportions that African European countries provided help under the COVAX initiative. I can give you other examples. Despite the lockdown which was imposed by the government last year, women working in industrial areas were forced to continue to work in exporting industries, especially in a French curtain factory, simply because it was decided that exporting companies are essential industries for the national economy. And this created a peak in the contamination levels in that city. The female divers collecting clams and oysters continue to work at extremely low wages. They get eight dinars for eight hours a day. This is not enough to buy one liter of olive oil. This is not enough to buy one tin of preserved tomatoes, even though we produce olive oil, we produce tomatoes locally. We cannot actually afford those produced locally, simply because the cost is too high. And despite the ruling of the Italian Council of State on the question of the illegally imported waste from Italy to Tunisia between May and July 2020, and this affected 282 containers, 7,800 tons of prohibited waste, despite that ruling which imposed on Italy to retrieve those waste quantities within two months, nothing has been done ever since. And such waste continues to pollute the country. In terms of brain drain, in addition to brain drain, we also suffer from immigration as a whole. And the way Europe is managing clandestine immigration, 15,000 Tunisian nationals left Italy using a sea route in the first months of 2021, but 20,000 people from sub-Saharan Africa crossed our borders during the same year. And those are only figures to give you an order of magnitude and to tell you to what extent the situation is actually deteriorating in our countries in terms of further pressure on working conditions, in terms of lower wages, in terms of worsening of the environmental crisis. With all attendant consequences, there is an increased brain drain. And of course, the government doesn't know what to do to deal with the situation. The COVID pandemic again highlighted the underlying economic problems of Africa. And I do believe that the post-pandemic recovery can only be sustainable if we look at the structural problems and tackle those structural problems head on. By way of a conclusion, I would say that the responsibility of Africa is of course to stop that sort of economic development model, which is based on levelling down in order to out-compete your neighbor. Regional partnerships within the continent must rest on coordinated investment patterns in order to develop horizontal ties in strategic issues, healthcare, transport, telecoms, renewable energies, research and development, but also education across the continent. The responsibility of Europe is to realize that the extractive, extraction-based economic development model has failed. And a new model needs to be adopted based on the true partnership with technology transfers. One needs to be more selective in terms of foreign direct investments. Tax benefits should not be mainstreamed. Not everything must be liberalized, but there should be a real collaboration stressing the local needs and meeting the local needs of partners. We also need to prioritize ecotourism, the development of the local heritage and safe agricultural practices. We also need to develop the monetary side with the constellation of sovereign debts. It is important to mobilize Africa's resources, and this would be made possible by cancelling the debt. The objective then should be to develop full employment policies, as opposed to austerity policies. We need to come up with public education, sustainable agriculture, renewable energy, infrastructure. And then, in terms of resources, they should be dedicated to the management of natural resources, and we should make sure that we empower, especially the youth and women. And I would like to pay tribute to the E.P. Resolution in March, 2021, on the new EU-Africa strategy and the partnership for sustainable and inclusive development, taking into consideration the objectives of the African Union and the EU. But I would like to caution that any debt cancellation initiative can only be efficient if there is a real coordination between all multilateral creditors and private creditors. And those initiatives cannot simply be conditioned on new austerity measures. The aspirations of local populations must be taken into consideration, including decent public services, decent employment conditions, and decent living conditions for all. This is the message I wanted to stress today, and I would be very happy to engage in a future discussion. Thank you. Thank you very much, and thank you also for the very interesting figures you have provided. So if you agree, Mrs. Aishon, I would invite you to give a first, maybe comment concerning these remarks from the region. So how do you see challenges towards the Commission and the digital trade in particular to answer this question? And probably there is a lot of questions among us or within the chat. I will come back then to this debate opportunity. I would also have some questions already summarized, but first, Mrs. Aishon Flosios. Well, thank you very much and good evening to all. I especially thank you to the speakers before me for their very insightful interventions. So indeed, as Mr. Schultz suggested, I will say then a few words about the state of trade and Western relationship. Just to say besides, of course, the close proximity and historical relations, the countries of North Africa are very important trading partners for the EU with almost 110 billion euros of trading goods going between us in 2020. The five North African countries actually account for almost half of the whole EU trade with the African continent. So that's sizable. It's integrated. Economically, the deployment of value chains between the EU and the EU and that North Africa is supported and facilitated by the network of free trade areas, which form part of the association agreements. These free trade areas, they date back to over two decades. They have opened two-way trade in industrial goods and also in many cases also for agricultural products. So also the participation of North African countries in the pan-euro-med system of accumulation for rules of origin. This has also been very important for the closer integration and this integration has benefited all sides. So as I said, trade in goods with the North African countries with which the EU has these agreements has increased by 30% between 2009 and 2019. So, of course, there is a large untapped potential which then points to the need to modernize the relationship in trade and investment. Just to sort of factually underpin this, the European Commission published staff working documents which took stock of an exposed evaluation. So it was conducted, the exposed evaluation was conducted to look at how the trade chapters of the six Euro Mediterranean association agreements have actually delivered. So it looked also at Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Algeria, for instance. The evaluations stated that these trade areas have overall delivered quite well in terms of achieving their objectives. But the evaluation also showed that there would be more benefits available if the trade arrangements between us would cover non-tariff measures, regulatory aspects, sustainable development, investment and services. So there is scope for modernization. Also on investment side, it showed that there are some success stories of investments in these countries but there is potential for much more coming from the EU. Investments that would then support sustainable green digital transition but also investments in manufacturing. So what has the EU done recently? Last year was a year of strategic framework of funding being put in place. The European Commission has issued two important documents back in February that put the region in a specific focus. So I'm talking here about the EU trade policy review of February, which then was jointly and synergetically developed with joint communication on renew partnership on southern neighbourhood. Both these documents offered to modernize trade and investment relationship with interested partners. Very recently importantly, also a new European global gateway strategy was launched by the EU. So this looks to boost also the sustainable links and connections around the world looking in the areas of transport, digital health, climate and energy but also in education and research. So this strategy is yet to be implemented but it's important. Recently we are also as the commission stepping up implementation and enforcement of our trade agreements. So this enforcement action is important not only to defend the interest but also to ensure that the economic operators find predictable and transparent conditions of trading of investing. So this is also important for new economic cooperation in priority areas such as digital and green transition in health and novel ways of agriculture and production of food and food security. As you know, there is the work on going and intention really to associate the North African countries in new farm to pork strategy. So this links very well here as well. I believe it was referred to already but we have also stepped up the cooperation with North African countries in the context of the regional work in the union for the Mediterranean. This we have created a trade and investment platform at the senior officials level. Basically a format to discuss issues like sustainability trade facilitation and investment climate reforms and so forth. So this more regional discussion and cooperation forum also is revitalized last year. That said, we look forward to continuing close engagement in bilateral and then more regional formats. So thank you. I mean we have one challenge with the whole reporting which we have what is the reason for organizing also the series of webinars is that we have to focus on the trade and investment issues in a certain way. Because we can't write from the international trade committee a report which is covering all the aspects. But of course we have to include all the problems and challenges in our thinking when we are dealing with this challenge of reshaping the economic relationship. And that leads me to one key question to our speakers in particular from the continent with the project of the AS50A there is of course the orientation that you have to strengthen the intra-African that also the intra-regional cooperation, linkages, infrastructure constructing, etc. So if we are looking on that point, so how we can from your experience, from your views what you have just told us about the need for reshaping the value change for having a different orientation of investments for healthcare for education, etc. So how we are organizing the how we are supporting the reorganization of the responsibility of the stakeholders who have to to do this, political ones, economic ones in the region. So of course there could be an addressing that the bilateral relationship between you and Africa is interfering in this ability because there is a traditional trade and commercial cooperation but of course we have to understand how we are redirecting these vertical links to a more horizontal linkage between your countries. So would you think that the approach which has been expressed in the hearing of the trade committee on the same problems with Secretary General of the AFSFDA Mr. Ramkelemena when he said that the form of economic transformation in the African context is a transformation of the system of production from a dominated by primary extractions what you have referred to in your introductory remarks and then the contributions and low value agriculture and services towards a system in which high value is added through the application of technology, innovation and better linkage between the sectors in the wild economy. So the question would be then where is the money coming from? So who is investing, who is contributing to this free orientation? So what use therefore would demand probably from us, from Europeans and other third country responsible political and economic responsible decision makers in addressing this question. Do you need grants? Do you need investments? Because any investor coming to your country being in Tunisia, being in Nigeria, being in Morocco expects of course also environment where he finds conditions worth to invest. So I think this is one of the crucial points we have to discuss very frankly and I'm fully share your demands to us that we have to rethink very deeply how we are shaping this relationship and that we have also to overcome a certain traditional economic thinking so we have to introduce maybe other criteria and I found a very interesting book published economic and monetary sovereignty in the 21st century Africa and I can only recommend everybody to read this book because there are a lot of very interesting figures at first but of course also thoughts and proposals how to answer this question I raised so maybe you can come back to this question how we have to deal with the stakeholders political ones at both continents because they will meet next week in Paris and the huge investment package will be probably adopted or put on the way so what does that mean? Who is deciding on the direction of the investments? Who is in a transparent way participating in the control and the scrutiny about the investments from both sides so I think maybe that is for the beginning crucial questions I would raise for our webinar I don't know exactly who wants to come in Can I Yeah please, Mr. Yes, well I am sure I missed some of the issues but I understand particularly from the last statement in terms of the responsibility for ensuring that the reshaping of economic relations and trade actually it might be with both Africa and Europe and I think this is where policy and regulatory practices can indeed help to reshape trade now you yourself had mentioned and I think this is absolutely essential that the tradition of thinking the IMF well done thinking of investment really it must be re-examined I believe that there is now a clear basis for identifying a new value that will come into the computations of investment and that is the value of global prosperity as a whole and I have said before that any investment that increases inequality and increases poverty in any location actually creates a negative factor in the computation so I believe this is the core in my view thinking that must now be perhaps contributed particularly by our universities and our professors to find how we incorporate additional value into our computations so that investment assessment can actually take account of this very important factor I believe that's from the contribution I can make here thank you Mara you wanted to come in? Yes, thank you it's an important question I think from the money can only be collected when there is value creation money can be spent by any state or public authority if there is going to be an increase in the value added chain but there is a linkage between economic and monetary sovereignty but when the money needs to be borrowed to reimburse the debt or in order to fund the profits which are going to be channeled out of the country then it becomes a constraint for the country and it becomes impossible to properly allocate that money towards beneficial investments as far as the local populations are concerned one talks of the primary deficit but what about the trade balance in the IMF when they make recommendations they say that the primary deficit needs to come down you need to stop spending you need to stop investment budgets you need to cut down on your operating budgets so such austerity policies do not give states the possibility to spend in order to create value to create wealth and to be able to reinvest in strategic investments there was I believe a German proposal of the Compact with Africa and it was all about investments which would be generated by public-private partnerships but as we know very often such public-private partnerships which would incite encourage private investors to chip in and put some money on the ground to develop infrastructure projects for instance we know that such a project are actually a way for private investors to basically collect a number of benefits but the less lucrative part is actually left over to states who will be having to pay the rent as it were for the foreseeable future so legislation is really important because when well I had a number of discussions about macro financial assistance which comes with a number of terms and conditions one needs to liberalise the agri-food sector or changes have to be made to fit the sanitary rules I learned that the European Parliament doesn't necessarily have their say on such memorandums of understanding where the fine print is being negotiated in terms of conditions for African countries to receive the money from the EU and as a representative of the African civil society we are happy to participate we are happy to say what we believe doesn't work but we always end up having to deal with governments that apply to the letter the loan conditionalities that have been negotiated and imposed to them simply because they are under the constraint of having to cut down their primary deficit and having to reimburse the debt so I do believe there is a problem, the balance of power is a real problem today let's take the look of Tunisia a lot of pressure is being brought to bear on UGTT to accept, to agree to a reform plan with the IMF they do know that the only way to push against austerity is by mobilising the working class and the trade unions and so what's happening, there is a lot of pressure being brought to bear on trade unions and trade unionists are being very much encouraged to accept a reform program so that we may get IMF money and this is what we hear in the country unless we get a new agreement with the IMF there will not be any macro financing assistance from the EU, there will be no bilateral agreement, there will be no loans from all partners and in a few months time you will not be able to import wheat, gas or for the raw materials so there is a lot of power play and it's very difficult today to know how we can actually influence decision makers today of course we know where the money may come from but at the same time it is important to understand who the money is going to benefit to it should be money which is going to be very beneficial for Europe, it should also be beneficial for our countries because if we fail to do so we will have more political instability we will have more populism we will have more problems with democracy and we will end up with a new revolution I do believe that the situation is extremely fragile in the country itself this is all I can say about this thank you very much thank you very much Mr Elmour, you want to comment? I would like to add a small element I totally agree with what Ma just said money, but what does this money do in the local economy? actually we are stuck with the macroeconomical analysis and understanding of issues that block our sociological or more social analytical approach to understand what type of investment we need what the investment do in the local level and if we accept a kind of investment that increase the austerity policy and decrease the working class condition and facilitate the money circulation it's not really investment so we have to challenge the world of investment we will not go that yes we are not more investment but we have to ask what type of investment why we need investment and how we can rebuild a new economy and continue all the way as business as usual all the problem that we are stuck in now will be continued so we will search more money to ameliorate our political economy figures to lend more money from World Bank and FME and it's a versus circle actually so investment why and for do what exactly and this is for me more important question we have to pull all European and our own countries thank you I mean I fully agree that of course what in which fields we have to invest what is really the aim of investments for making your countries countries maybe it's also the wrong word and your citizens and their representatives in the different levels of government in the countries able to decide what is the priority task so if I look into a research work by the Peace Research Institute of Frankfurt the Leibniz Institute is asking the consequences of the COVID-19 crisis and its management in the Mahreb is is tight it is a worse yet to come so they are describing similar to that what Maha just explained that the departure of medical persons out of the countries the inability to get vaccines the inability to really to take responsibility for the healthcare in the situation where we are in leads of course by this trust in the political stakeholders to deliver and just increases the potential drivers of radicalization so because these radical actors can benefit from the several social economic crisis emerging from the COVID-19 crisis even for a such near-reached task that is not even speaking about the question of building up the educational system as Mansour has said just to be able to create jobs on an educated and trained basis for the diversification of the industrial production in different goods or what you said about the agricultural challenges so then I think it is really problematic and here we have to take responsibility in shaping the bilateral relations so if the European Union is not picking up this question as one of the burning points where we have to to bring in our support also in a way that we have to understand even if you're investing without direct economic outcome or profit by economic operations in the momentum but in the long term it is beneficial yeah so I mean this is a problem and probably it should be one of the crucial points for my point of view in the forthcoming EU summit and we have tomorrow in the European Parliament a meeting of European parliamentarians sitting in the joint parliamentary committee of European Parliament as a pre-summit we have to discuss such questions there as well so that the parliament is taking scrutiny responsibility in dealing with what is foreseen by the government of the member states of the European Union by the institutions by the African Union and the African member states so I mean we have directly to turn to those who are responsible for decision making on this issue and that is also sorry which is what we said that policy makers in both Europe and Africa have a responsibility for designing policies that shape the new investment regulation and new investment code now you see when perhaps the developed work recognise that environment is a key component of development and that until we do something about for instance the deteriorating climate situation issues like carbon tax is now incorporated in investment decision making now why can't we in the same way incorporate each can you please make investment outside Africa must be hello yeah please repeat I'm saying that in the same way that we have now introduced carbon tax in order to improve overall climate situation incorporated in our decision making for investment it is also in my view makes sense to incorporate poverty tax which means any investment that actually helps to reduce poverty actually should have a credit and that will create a tendency for investors across from wherever to now go for investment that reduce poverty as all computations of making this investment and this this is a policy matter in Europe and can get together and agree on this matter and I think this is how policy and regular by after by sector and public sector thank you that is of course in line with certain suggestions and proposals included in the report on the Africa so I mean we have of course to link the different tools we are we are discussing and we are adopting in the European Parliament trying to show a certain new approach for shaping this bilateral relationship but of course that is of then also linked to the to the readiness of African countries in the African Union to conclude an agreement or to shape at least the bilateral relations in that way that we are introducing obligatory new criteria for the question how we are investing what are the conditions what are the enforceable tools and mechanisms we have to to apply and that I think is a political battle we have we have to do a lot so yes thank you I simply wanted to give you maybe a few ideas if we are talking about investments and if there is a tax credit given to foreign investors well at least if for instance you know we're talking about renewable energy let's not say that of course you cannot export what you have invested in but you need at the same time not to export 100% let's make sure that some of the renewable energy produced comes to benefit the local population if you get a tax credit if for 10 years you're not going to pay social security you're not going to pay tax because you invest locally at least you should be made with jobs over the long term and there's jobs with decent wages and salaries for those workers so you need to look at that sort of conditionality so that locally somebody is being given to the local community and that needs to be enshrined in national legislation because since we got the IMF program we ended up with an investment code which liberalizes the the ball game all advantages are being given to foreign investors this is not limited at all there is no responsibility imposed on foreign investors where they come and invest so it's a free for all for those investors and it's very easy for them to move from one country to the other that we need to integrate in the legislation and in the future discussions on investments in free trade agreements we need to have employment related objectives also linked to decent working and living conditions for the local population and with technology transfers and with an obligation to respect the environment it shouldn't be left to corporate social responsibility it should really be something which is enforceable in terms of terms and conditions under newly created trade agreements or bilateral cooperation agreements thank you so we have just only three minutes left so maybe I give once more the floor to Mrs. Aishon if you want to come in once more to give a final comment if you see the chance that we are shaping our agreements in that way that we are introducing also in the investment package or in the trade agreements in the TSD chapters or maybe in all the chapters dealing with these challenges we have described today such criteria and obligatory what is that benchmark so that from the political shaping of that we are enforcing the corporations and the actors in the economic area really to deal with this challenge in our common interest of a prosperous development of the relationship between you and African thank you very much and really very briefly because my role has been here to also listen and understand but I think on the question concretely indeed I mean I think the EU trade policy has been evolving and I was mentioning before the trade strategy from February last year which very much owns up to responsibilities to the sustainable development to sustainable investment question so this is sort of the strategic orientation and of course also the mandates for trade negotiations the templates that the EU has when it negotiates trade agreements and investment agreements they are also constantly evolving and I think these messages and the requests that you have put forward today is of course important to take back and as I was saying also before I mean the trading arrangements that are in place with the North African countries right now not with all of them but most of them they date back a few decades so of course there is scope for improvements but it takes two sides to scope to agree upon in what direction these relationships should evolve so I think this is precisely the discussion to be had we cannot do this alone thank you probably I can make a promise that the parliament will accomplish this work and that we are continuing to include in our way of how we want to analyze and to make conclusions for the political shaping of the relationship these remarks and we are striving at least in the trade sector for a long time already for these de-chapters in any agreement for dealing with this task for rethinking what we are really doing so the clock is ticking and we have to deal with the implementation of the SDGs we have only few years to deal with the climate change problems or environment, climate, biodiversity are all issues we have to deal with in our daily practices and of course the question of job creation of education, of health care of giving the young population at both continents in the future I think that is a common challenge we have and here I see the responsibility also for introducing such ideas in the trade policy, the very concrete economic effects and figures and to deal with that because here we have a huge potential and a huge opportunity to participate in reshaping these aspects that leads me, we have to close the meeting unfortunately I want to thank very very much all the panelists, I want to thank I want to thank Mansoor Ahmed I want to thank Saka El-Nur and also of course Nila Aishon for having participated in this debate, as usually I ask you for any comments, further ideas contributions you made today in written form to us we have we have made a recording of our baby now but nevertheless it's sometimes it's good to have it in a written form because it gives us additional opportunities to stick to the one or the other point we found very interesting it was the pre-baby now in the series of four we are meeting again if you want please feel invited then we are dealing with the problems, challenges, situations at the ground in the southern part of Africa and again we will probably have a very interesting and far-reaching debate, thank you very much stay healthy and see you soon solidarity and of course thank you for the interpretations and interpreters who made it possible and of course also to the organisers the Luxembourg Foundation thank you thank you very much to the organisers and thank you very much for the discussion thank you all the best to you