 Good evening. Good afternoon. I hope you all are doing well. I did a video some time ago I have absolutely no idea what the video was and there was a response by our brother I want to bring him on in just a little bit Regarding tongues. I had to even ask him. What was the question that I asked him and the question? I guess it was it was a short that said bit give biblical support for tongues being either babbling or gibberish or Kind of how I'm putting it the way I see tongues are today And so he gave an answer gave a pretty a pretty Detailed answer in his video. And so at the end I'm gonna go ahead and put a link to that video and to his channel in the description But anyway, he gave a gave a response. I just happened to be up one day. Oh, I know what it was I was putting together Something because you guys know I'm pretty handy not but it took me an hour to do a project That was probably about 10 minutes long and so I'm listening to the video So so you know what let me reach out and see if you'd like to come on and talk because the one thing that We should do if we have a difference be willing to share in the differences Try to help understand see what the other person is saying If the person can see what you're saying because as we say it's not who's right But what's right? And so that being the case. I want to bring on my brother Sam Sam you say Sam fryer Sam fryer Friar fire. Okay. Okay, brother. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you? I'm doing I'm doing wonderful. I'm doing wonderful Guys, I'm not sure how long this is gonna take but we're gonna go ahead and jump into it right now Sam initially and I'll throw up video video. I'll throw up the text as he's going as I'm going as well But Sam your response to What I was saying was basically if I'm correct that that you see a difference between What was what was happening in acts to Versus what's happening in 1st Corinthians 12 13 and 14, right? Yeah, and what I said was I didn't interject that into the video because the video was 40 minutes long as it was and So do not muddy the waters anymore and being that I do hold that position anyways I didn't even bring acts to into the subject when I did the response Okay, so so let's do this then and guys we haven't Sam and I have not determined Any sort of order so this is kind of a little bit free flowing But my question would be why do you why do you see those two? Those two things acts to versus 1st Corinthians being separate Yeah, I'll read it for you if you want to pull up acts to okay Which verse? You can go to acts. I mean, I'm sorry. I'm verse 7 chapter 2. Okay Alright, so it says I'm reading this out of the NASB says that they were amazed and astonished Actually, I'm gonna go back up to verse 6 said the crowd came together and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them Speak in his own language They were amazed and astonished saying why are not all these who are speaking Galileans and How is it that We each hear them in our own language to which we were born So the reason that I see these as mutually exclusive and we'll obviously get into this is The whole issue in Corinthians with the tongues That Paul's addressing is nobody understands what's being said so to me is just a logical conclusion It doesn't it doesn't seem that we would be talking about the same thing if these people do hear and understand the language But the audience that Paul's referring to is saying hey nobody understands what you're saying then it kind of Speaks that it couldn't be the same situation Okay, okay, you were you were making a point in 1st Corinthians 12 and 14 and you got into a little bit of What the words mean I want to get there, but I want to ask a question and see if you and see if you can kind of Flow with me a little bit When we see or when we see a gift I think there's two things important and tell me if you agree when it comes to to the gifts Or anything that that the Lord is doing in us couple things I would always ask is when and Why the why is as relates to tongues Why do we have these? Why are we doing this? Why why is God using us? Why are why would there even be this this gifting? Why would there even be this need for tongues? What's the purpose of it and then the wind not so much when they do it But when in the Bible does it ever give any sort of heads up or notice that this is going to happen? And so I think because I think that there is a chronology to what God is doing as an order to what he's doing and so See if see it if you if you agree with this In John, I'm gonna what I'm gonna do is we'll go ahead and put on the screen in John 15 Jesus is getting ready to depart and he's speaking to his disciples and he tells them about not just his death his impending death But also what's gonna happen as a result of that that being the Holy Spirit coming and he says in verse 2060 says when the helper I was the Holy Spirit whom I will send to you from the father That is a spirit of truth who proceeds from the father He will testify about me and you will testify also because you have been with me from the beginning And so he seems to be saying That the Holy Spirit you you receive to do what to testify and he says that greater things that I do You'll do because I'm going to find out that we'll do better things will do more of what he came to do Because the spirit will be in more people so he won't be relegated to one locale as he was in his earthly ministry and so Here it seems to say that when the spirit comes upon them, then they will be a witness To him as the word matter of fact, that's that's what the word that's used there That's what this word the Greek where the shoes here is Martirete, which is to testify or to be a witness and then acts 1-8. We see it happening again So as they're coming together with the Lord he says they came together and they were asking him Lord Is it at this time that you're going to restore the kingdom? He said them is not for you to know the times at pots with father has fixed his own authority Here it is he says but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you shall be my witnesses and then Not only does he say to be as witnesses, but even where and to who be my witnesses both in Jerusalem and Judea Then also in Samaria and then even to the remotest or the uttermost parts of the earth And so then we see it happening just like that So if Jesus makes the statement in John 15 and in Acts 1 I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that if he says that's what's gonna happen Then that's what they do the spirit comes upon now They have no idea they have no idea as far as we can tell that they're going to speak in tongues because No one had had this happen to them before where they began speaking in languages where they did not know before And so because you would think the obvious question is okay, Lord We'll be fine giving being a witness in Jerusalem Judea. We speak the same language same with Samaria But when we start departing which we don't know if they've ever departed from that region before prior to them actually being moved If they've ever been to these other places, they don't speak the same language I don't know if that actually Came across their mind or not, but that's exactly what they're doing So we get to Acts 2 we see this happening right and he does just what and just the same order that Jesus says to Jerusalem Judea the Jews first then the Samaritans in Acts 8 and then the uttermost parts of the world Everyone else the Gentiles and so forth in Acts chapter 19 Then the next time that we see tongues being brought up again is In first Corinthians 12 13 foot 12 and 14 right so going into and the reason why I'm saying this because going into chapter 12 and 14 of first Corinthians all we ever know that tongues are or Glow-sized is Languages now there's different different means obviously it could mean the actual member of your mouth the tongue Or it can mean language those the only two those only two means that the Bible has ever given us and when we go back and look at Extra biblical writings from that time. That's what it meant as well So when we get to first Corinthians 12 and 14 if we're gonna say that tongues are now something different Is there a basis for saying so and that that'd be my question you what what would be the basis for now saying? That when we get to chapter 12 and 14 and first Corinthians that it means Something different than people speaking in an actual language It's a good question. I Mean, I guess the first thing I would ask is Can we run that same logic through all of the other eight giftings that he mentions? But I think that really To better answer the question you have to build all the context around it. So so you said that Basically, you were saying for the purpose of evangelizing, right? Mm-hmm with the purpose of tongues. Well, every every spiritual gift and I mean every spiritual gift That we've seen or ever seen ever seen in use Have always been for the building up of the body every time that we see an actual gift in use It was for the building up of somebody in the body or adding to the body same thing Right and then every scripture that we see talking about at a fine and we'll get to the passage in Jude 20 It's always building up others as a matter of fact We get to do 20 we'll see that the Greek is clear also that it's edifying others not your not yourself And so if we go and we'll probably do it a little bit look at other passages where? Paul and and and Peter talk about and Jude as well Speak about that these giftings are for the benefit and the lifting up of others As a matter of fact James is the same thing. I think yeah, James the same thing too So it'd be kind of hard to say at least for me If I've got all these patterns all these scriptures that I've got that are telling me that the spiritual gifts all of them Whether be tongues or healings or what have you that they are for the benefit of others You said it would be hard for you to say that it would be hard for me Just it would be hard for me to say that they're not for or it'd be hard for me to turn around and say that now Spiritual gifts are for the benefit the edifying of yourself when every other passage dealing with edifying Specifically says that though. That's the problem. Paul. He explicitly was that and Corinthians, okay? So and I mean, I know you know these verses When it speaks in the tongue edifies himself, right? You pull it up So that's the problem with this. So I know that you're you're laboring to connect What's going on in Acts chapter 2 to the idea of going out to the ends of the earth and evangelizing and that's logical I mean we hear you know people give testimonies and they'll say well We've been doing mission work in other places. I might have gave them the ability to supernaturally speak in the natives language but When you read through the passages particularly in chapter 14 of Corinthians It seems to fly in the face of that at a surface level reading of the text and going back to my response video Which your question was was you know use the text to support this idea And so to me it's kind of plain that if you just if you read through the text line for line To me, it's the only logical conclusion. You can come with and that's that's intentionally why I left acts to out Because that's where the waters That's not the only reason but that's one of the reasons that the waters begin to get muddy Okay Doesn't know anything about anything and I was this guy For the record and you read through the passages and Corinthians 12 13 and particularly chapter 14 It seems to indicate very clearly that the spiritual gift starting at the beginning of that whole discourse that Paul has of tongues Which can and in some cases publicly should be coupled with another gift of interpretation is in fact a language that no one knows Okay, and so that that would sever it Completely from the idea of evangelizing in a known language, even if you don't know it the one being gifted But the audience what why do you say it's a language and I saw your video? But so for the benefit of others, why do you say that the tongues in chapters 12 and 14 are an unknown language? Paul says it specifically Where he says he says if I pray says my mind's unfruitful. He says I don't I don't know what I'm saying He oh, that's the whole problem going on in chapter 14 is he's saying look nobody knows what you're saying So if you don't have an interpreter an outsider comes in they're gonna think you're crazy No one knows what's going on that that's the whole context of what he's saying to okay So let this is why I go to to to acts as well as we'll even go to the Old Testament But as well as even mark 16 even if a person there are those that believe in the longer in well The traditional longer ending of mark 16 even though there's an even longer ending and a ending that's longer That's kind of splitting the difference between verses 9 and 20 But if we go with the traditional ones that that you see let's say in the King James version There are there's some words that are used there because you mentioned that God does choose his words carefully so in mark 16 He says that these signs will accompany those who believe now whether you believe this the longer ending applies or not Let's just go with it that it does apply and my names that were cast out demons they will speak in with new tongues Now what I have highlighted what I've done guys is um I had this cayenne underlining for the word glow size which is tongues and then aligning under and above for the word of speak which is la lay oh And so the reason why I have that done is because all throughout Acts and first Corinthians 12 and first Corinthians 14 This same term is used And oh by the way, we'll see it also in the Old Testament Because paul references a passage in the Old Testament. So we see this glow size la lu susan I'm sorry la lay susan, which is uh tongues plural speaking And then if we go to acts 2 We'll see something as well acts 2. Let's start it in Let's start in verse verse 4 And they were all filled with the holy spirit and they began to and here it is That's why you had the underlining and so forth and they were began to speak in tongues. So the speaking is there Uh I'm sorry Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry the word glow size is there but then in verse 4 the speak is all I lost my My spot la lane, which is the same as la lay. Oh and then glow size So they are speaking tongues and you say that this is a known language, correct I'm sorry. I had somebody walk in on me right where you're in the middle of that. But yeah, um, you believe that in acts 2 This is a known language, right? It says they heard them speaking in their own language. Okay. Okay. That's right Okay, and the words is the greek words are still used there is la lay oh and glow size Okay, so we have la lane headerized glow size, which is uh to speak in other languages So la lay oh and then glow size here and if we drop down you highlighted a word Um, but I think you I think I think you made an error on because you you brought up this this word That's used in 1st Corinthians 12 and 14 This word phonase he says and when they heard this sound. Well, what's the sound this word phonates? Uh, the sound points back to what they heard which was them speaking in language And so you're saying that phonate refers to a a known language, but glow size refers to an unknown language Not not exactly and let me let me be clear. I don't claim to be a greek scholar. Okay. Okay Uses a different word my appeal was an appeal to logic Look at the whole context of the illustration. So we have to read read The entirety of those surrounding passages He says that if an instrument is played and it doesn't make a distinguishable sound then you cannot recognize it But he uses a second illustration. He says if the two of us me and you for example, my wife speaks spanish I'm trying to learn it. It's a slow process But let's say I was fluent and you don't know spanish And I'm speaking to you in this video in spanish. You have no idea what i'm saying At all and I don't understand you if that's the only language I speak and paul's using this example As the backdrop for what he's trying to communicate with his audience about tongues. Okay, so to me contextually I find it insignificant that he selects a different word. It almost would seem to me intentional Well, the point is though if you if you that that's why I say it's uh, this would be erroneous Because if you if you zero in the fact that that word being chosen Then you've got to use that word where it's also used even in the same context other places So the word phonate is used in first Corinthians 14, but it's also used in Acts two So if we're going to say that those are two different things Well, then why is that word phonate also be used in relation to speaking in tongues in acts two? And it's also being used the first chrithin 14 My cont my contending is that it's the exact same thing We're going to find out a couple things one why paul wrote the letter That's a one thing real fast. Yes. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. I don't want to lose it on that It's not so much about the word. I think the selection of the word becomes key Once you understand what i'm saying about the logic behind it Why would paul use two men that speak two different known languages as an example To state why you shouldn't do the exact same thing. It doesn't make sense. It's very clear that he's making a contrast He's using this idea of us not knowing the same language as an example of why Speaking in tongues is problematic because the audience doesn't know what's being said. Okay. Let's let's do this Let's let's go to first chrithin's. Why why is that saying that there? Let's go to first chrithin's 12 Let's start there and work and work our way through Let me ask you this question Why do you suppose that paul is writing this letter to the church of karim? Well, there was all kinds of issues going on. They were having a multitude of problems What what is it? Okay? If I say tell me if you agree then paul is writing the church of karim To stop there being any division He says in chapter one At the very the first part of the letter about there being divisions divisions amongst themselves in terms of who they follow It says i've been reported to me that there are divisions amongst you by those employees household And and you all are behaving like like mere men Right, so he talks about divisions there. He also talks about divisions as it relates to the family Uh, and then as we get to chapter 12 The same thing now concerning Uh, there's numitiko. So so his whole letter is about that we should be And this is pretty much universal even even amongst commentaries and scholars We'll say that paul is writing because there is A division that wants you to have that sort of division that we should be united Which is why he in chapter 12 starts talking about us being part of the body and using Different analogies of different body parts. Would you would you agree with that so far? Yeah, okay Now when we get to 12, this is important Because I agree with you. I think words Do have a meaning and so if we go to chapter 12 verse 1 He says now concerning and the word that's used here by the way is not spiritual gifts Only one time in the bible do we even have the the phrasing spiritual With gifts right beside it, but what this is is now concerning the numitiko The reason why people might well translate it spiritual gifts is because The gifting of what god has given That's fine imply that because it's what it literally means The little meaning is the things of the spirit or spiritual things And so now concerning these spiritual things or if you want to use spiritual gifts fine Which is why you see the italics of the word gifts I do not want you to be and here's this is important I don't want you to be ignorant or unaware this greek word right here I know any which is to not know I don't want you to not know Well, the reason why is because apparently they're doing something or in this case Saying something speaking something Ignorantly or not knowing you know that when you were pagans you were led astray to the mute idols However, you were led therefore I make known to you that no one and there's everywhere alone Speaking no one speaking by the spirit of god says Jesus occurs just like no one can say that jesus lord except by the spirit So apparently it seems to me. I don't know if you agree with this or not But people are speaking Apparently by the Believers who supposed to have the holy spirit in them. They're saying jesus occurs The very same people are also saying jesus lord. How could that pause like that that can't be Because I but I don't want you to be ignorant about what you're speaking They clearly are saying something speaking something ignorantly because that's literally that's literally what paul just says You guys are speaking something Doing something ignorant league Would you would you agree thus far Well, he says I do not want you to be ignorant. Yeah, you were led about by mute idols However, you were led therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the spirit of god would say jesus is accursed And no one can say jesus is lord except by the holy spirit I mean he says The way that I interpret that is exactly again as it reads You know, I make known to you that no one speaking by the spirit of god says jesus is accursed And no one can say jesus is lord except by the holy spirit meaning that The acknowledgment of who christ is is the acknowledgment of the spirit In that person to that degree Do you think that anyone was ever saying out of their mouth speaking Jesus is accursed Uh, yeah, it's possible Because you said you said that that's why he chooses words carefully So he's saying that no one no one speaking by the spirit says jesus is accursed and he and he uses in the same context Of I don't want you guys to be ignorant. I don't want you to be unaware right Right, just to just to make sure though that we're tracking But people speaking in tongues aren't saying jesus is accursed though. So I haven't met anybody that Can I ask your question? Do you know what they're saying? Bible tells us we don't know he says my mind is Okay, all that he would know so then so then we don't know what they're saying. They could be somebody could be saying something, couldn't they? Uh, boy, that's a question. That's a loaded question. I would have to say I don't think so not if they if they okay. Well, if you're asking my opinion, then I That's what i'm gonna submit to you But you'd have to say You'd have to say since you don't know what they're saying Is somebody could be saying that right? I would say no if you have the gift of tongues you wouldn't be praying Jesus is accursed. I mean that doesn't make a lot of sense. Is there ever anybody that's ever spoken in tongues? That's awesome things, you know Well, okay, so has there ever been anyone that got up and spoken tongues and they didn't have the gift They're just speaking in tongues. They're just speaking Oh, I think that happens frequently. Okay. Is it possible that person who did so is also a christian So bob who's a christian, but he's speaking. He didn't know what he's saying. Is that possible He's probably doing what you suggested in the question. He's probably it's probably just gibberish. Okay, so How I would view it. Okay, so so fine I also don't go around aiming at everybody trying to determine who actually has got the real thing or not That's that and that that's fair. But you just said a christian Can get up and speak not have the gift and say something and we don't know what they're saying Right Right and and he's not supposed to do that without an interpretation in public anyways forgetting. Okay, that and that's true He's not supposed to do that, but he does that Do you think they were doing that in current? Is it possible they were doing that in current? It's possible that there was A lot of chaos going on and this was part of it because paul let's talk about that link So yeah, I would say that's possible. So so you just said now It is possible for someone to be safe have the spirit in them and to say something they don't know Yeah, okay, so that's my intention speaking in tongues. You know what I mean so and I certainly wouldn't qualify that as A legitimate expression from the father if you go and ask that person though if they spoke in tongues What would they tell you they would believe that they are operating in something that is legitimate And important and now and what would you say to that person? Would you would you would you even know if that person speaking in tongues? You wouldn't know either would you and we are being really Hypothetical now, but honestly, I would probably focus more on what they understand about the gospel and and get down to the foundation of where they're at before I try Well, hold on sam When you go to a church and this this is a certain case with me. I started off in Pentecost charismatic church Uh speaking in tongues myself other folks speaking in tongues myself. No one knew what anyone was saying We I've never heard anyone in the Pentecostal charismatic church go up to another person and say I don't think what you were doing speaking in tongues. They just we just assume we just take for granted That the person speaking in tongues and even the person who is speaking in tongues Even if they're fraudulent, they think they're speaking in tongues, right? They do yeah, okay, so if it's happening now, certainly it was happening then And if so, where is the letter where paul addresses such actions? I think that's what he's doing here or else this doesn't make any sense People can say something They don't know we can repeat a phrase and have no idea what we're saying, right? um I remember This was 1982 83 michael jackson He's speaking. He's got a song. I want to be starting something that mama say mama sama and and my mother asked me What is he saying? I don't have no idea. I have no idea. Could it have been something crazy? I don't know But we do stuff like that, right now that's not has nothing to do with with us trying to be something in the spirit People can want to be something so bad They can push it upon themselves because isn't that what paul is talking about there are people who desire Certain gifts because they think that certain gifts are more as paul goes on to say more honorable than other gifts, right? Yeah, okay. So if I think and I and listen I am I love the lord. I'm desiring. I'm zealous for gifting I'm zealous for However, the spirit can I just want to be and I'm especially from in the church where All we do is speak in tongues. I want that because by the way, I I saw that I witnessed that Every week at our church where people go and this was one of those churches where you go and tarry for the holy spirit and there were people who Wanted to speak in tongues, but didn't Well, you go back and ask them When they spoke in tongues. Well, I faked it Right now. No one knew they faked it How is it that people can fake tongues be around someone who supposedly is speaking legitimate tongues and no one can tell But the other issue is what are they doing? What are is it possible? They're saying something they shouldn't be saying Can I ask a question real quick though? The thing that you're saying be indicative of why paul is expressing the necessity to have an interpretation if you're going to publicly Because you're you're talking about publicly Administering this this gift was that's the way that we're having this conversation So we're not going to be that way for the sake of the conversation He's saying to have an interpretation wouldn't these be very great examples of the very reason why he's saying that It is but it is it is Go ahead. I'm sorry go ahead as far as the gifting itself goes and and carinthians says this He says this right at the beginning of this whole discourse. These gifts are distributed by the father as he wills So it's not something that you Just select to do anyways and and to be fair and I'm trying to be you know diplomatic about things There's no doubt a lot of error I think on what what would be labeled as my side of this the charismatic side on the subject I think it lends itself to all of this Confusion and tension that we have on the subject, but you're kind of in my opinion proving The way that I understand what these passages say in 12 13 and 14 particularly chapter 14 We're paul is saying look don't don't be speaking in public in these tongues because nobody knows what's going on without an interpretation Okay, why don't you he leaves that window open for For that to be acceptable with an interpretation when we get there we're going to talk about the individual person And we're going to find out and this was something that I that I pressed dr. Brown on he was and he he he he got it wrong Um, he said he disagreeed some of the word mean we'll find we found that the word was was was what I said It was we're going to find out that what he wants you to do publicly When it comes to this gift same thing he wants if it's by yourself But we'll come back to that but I just want to I want to press on this point But since we know and you said rightly that this is all one one train of thought It's not like that. He divided it between chapters. Here's chapter 12. Here's 13. Here's 14. He's making his point for For a reason. So paul introduced this this section dealing with with the spirit with pneumatico And he says I don't want you as regards to the spiritual things I don't want you guys to be ignorant and I think we can all agree Whatever they were ignorant about paul says I don't want you to be unaware ignorant or unknowing right And so we it it would behoove us To not say that paul is giving them an a at a boy good job when they're when they later on Do something ignorant because the question is going to be is why is paul Writing them. He's not writing them to say good job. He's writing them to say you're doing this in error Because he just said so you're doing I don't want you to be unaware ignorant So what does he turn around and say that you're doing ignorant lee? Let me interject there because I heard you say that before in that um interview with dr. Brown. Mm-hmm I think that's a fallacious argument though. He's to say yes He's saying I do not want you to be ignorant of these gifts And then he lists he lists nine of these spiritual things right wrong And he makes it very clear. This is what I do not want you to be ignorant of That that doesn't mean that it's kind of a leap in logic. It's a causation correlation fallacy It's like well just because he said that and that must mean that none of these nine gifts You don't understand how miraculous healing works. You know, I mean we're talking about tongues, but there were eight other gifts listed And how can you heal? How can you heal ignorant lee? If I pray for um if somebody in our church comes in and says pray for my husband He's sick and he had this accident and he's given a terrible diagnosis and we pray for him and he's healed against What was expected the expected outcome me and you don't understand how that happened? We just give glory to god. We know that he did well. No, we're not asking for the mechanics We're not asking for you know, lift the hood and see how this works. We're just you can't he you can't heal ignorant lee You can't speak ignorant lee though right I don't know. I don't I don't agree with that. I think you know the point that I was making was Was apples to apples. I don't I don't understand. I don't it's not necessity for me to understand How the other eight work either for them to operate. He's saying don't be ignorant of the gift itself not necessarily The operation of it. Okay, but but I would say fine that and that's fine. We can say that The fact that you have a Toyota in your driveway But when you get behind the wheel of it, you may not know the mechanics of how that Toyota runs Still, but you can still drive it to where you need to go. I didn't tell you you had to understand the mechanics of the Toyota I just said hey Don't be ignorant to the fact you got one out there and it can take you places. Okay, so Whatever the gifts are. I don't want you to be ignorant So if there's a way to to be healed ignorant lee fine I don't want you to be ignorant. It doesn't it doesn't nullify the point. However He literally does go into talking about Someone speaking and what's the one gift that he highlights? He highlights one main gift Or one main move of the spirit through now. He brings up others But he brings up one main gift in 14 and it's not prophecy by the way Uh, he's bringing up tongues. We'll talk about prophecy in a second But he literally talks about someone speaking That's the very next thing that he says after I don't want you to be ignorant Now we can now I think every spiritual thing We should make sure that we're that we're not unaware that we're not ignorant about so fine But that certainly necessarily means that he also includes tongues Tongues, I don't want you to be ignorant about tongues. I don't want you to be ignorant about healings I don't want you to be ignorant about prophecy. I don't want you to be ignorant about teaching or administration And I don't want you to be ignorant about tongues And he brings up highlights tongues As he speaks, right? So therefore we've got to conclude that there is something ignorantly being done because nowhere else in scripture Do we talk about the abuse of healings in the bible? Do we talk about the abuse of that we talk about the abuse of prophecy? And But the thing is there's a clear way to test that We talk about the abuse of in this case Tongues in some sort of fashion So my point is though, it's possible For someone to say something Ignorantly Right Yeah, I think people do it all the time And it's possible for christian But he he says he tells you what the error is though He explicitly explains what the error is that he's admonishing in Chapter 14 and it's hold on hold on hold on is the because Hold on. Let's look the reason why I'm going this this this way. I want to make sure that as we go we we see what paul is saying Since paul doesn't jump around let's let's go. Let's let's let's let's complete his thought He says there are a variety of gifts But the same spirit And there are varieties of ministries and the same lord there are varieties of effects But the same god who works in all things and you said rightly. I think we're on the same page here when You don't ask someone to speak in tongues or force it as you said and guys he agrees with me on this That is the lord who does so that's so if I speak in tongues or not, it's not me it's on god But no, it's what he says But to each one is given the manifestation for the common good So each gift is given for what whether it be tongues prophecy healings is for what? The common good for the benefit of the body Well, the individual is part of the body and he's going to go on to explain to each member being from the body detail So, I mean, I've heard you say that before too and I understand what you're saying Either way that you interpret the The common good Which I guess also could be a debate. I don't know but the bottom line is that for for any one of us to be built up And edified is the common good of the body When one suffers the other suffer with it so on and so forth, so I mean it's Okay, in my opinion, I think that's another kind of fallacious argument to so So here's how we could prove it one way or the other We could just look up every time the bible talks about building up either ourselves or others if you can find One passage where the bible tells us Go let's do that then so go to common good Because that was the that was the um The word that you keyed in on right. Mm-hmm The distribute for the common good and then pull it up and look at where it's dispersed throughout the bible and see what context It's used in well, this word this word means to bring to build the better. This is two words soon with in ferro um And so we've got this coming together, but it knows what he says for the building the common good And so if we're going to put it this way, um pneumatized prost Some ferro the only way it can be taken is for the common good of the body By the way, the body comes together for the benefit of others And if we look at every other passage that we can find about us being a benefit you can't find one Even if you think jude 20, let's hold off on that. We'll come we'll come a jude 22nd But every time I look up a passage that deals with edifying or coming together It's always for the benefit of the matter of fact, let me let me run through a few of them If you can think of some let me know also First Corinthians 10 23 knows what it says. He says all things are lawful, but not all things are Prophets all things are lawful, but not all things are I'm sorry verse 24 let no one Seek his own good, but that of his neighbor Here's another one first Peter 4 10 As each one has received a special gift Obviously speaking of spiritual gift because the word cheshire charisma Employ it in serving another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God Romans 14. Let me I'm a cursor Romans 14 19 Romans 14 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another And there are other passages that we look at now We'll we'll we'll make it through as we go through first Corinthians 12 and 14 About seven or eight times it talks about in these spiritual gifts every time in 1st Corinthians 2014. It talks about building up others Can I ask the question and I'm I'm genuinely asking because I'm a little bit confused or something so in verse 7 chapter 12 Corinthians The manifestation of the spirit for the common good, right? So that word is Is that Simfero? How you say that? Simferon or Simferos Simfero So I'm looking at the usages of it in the New Testament and it's Matthew 5 29 now if your right eye caused you to sin tear it out throw it away from you for it's better for you To lose one part of the body then for your whole body be thrown into hell Matthew 5 30 same thing Cut the hand off for it's better for you Matthew 18 6 it is better for him than a heavy millstone. So that's still a singular person to be hung around his neck Matthew 19 10 it is Let's read these Matthew. What? I'm rolling through these Matthew John 11 50 Well, hold on John 11. Yeah, John 15 nor are you taking into account that it is in your best interest that one man die for the people Hold on. Hold on. Let me get there. Let me get there. Let me let me pull it up Let's say there's a there's a lot of examples of the word being used in a singular context I'm not arguing that the translation is wrong. It's the common good I'm just saying to say that it could never mean anything singular which seems to be the implication No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying the word can never be used singularly That's no because even building up can be used singularly But what is he saying in chapter 12? Is he saying for you to be built up that that this is for the uh the building up of yourself But again, you're you're you're taking that to make it you're trying to lead that into a larger argument Me and you are both part of the body. Let's just we'll agree on that If I'm built up Is that not beneficial to all of us corp? If you're built up, is that not beneficial to me? Here's the question. Do we We can say that well, well, maybe maybe not. Here's what I would ask though Is there ever a passage in the bible where we are told at anyone at any passage? Build yourself up build yourself up. We do in jude 20 you have building yourself praying here building yourself up Okay, so so let's go to jude 20 so we can go ahead and and uh deal with that real quick jude 20 One who prays the tongue edifies himself then he goes on to say I pray That's not what paul is saying in jude. I mean in in uh in first screen. But let's go to jude 20 real briefly though jude 20 But you beloved building yourselves up in on the most holy faith praying in the holy spirit. There's two ways you can take that yeah One it could be that you sam build yourself up sam Or it could be taken that uh you All of you all build up others. There's there's only two ways you can take it, right? How do we know? Well, let's look at the greek the word you is plural Hey mace so you or let's just say we saw we say in the south y'all beloved Building up You toast yourselves and guess what this is in this is in the plural So y'all build up y'all This is not saying you build up yourself That's not what this past is saying You dear friends by building yourselves up in your most holy faith by praying in the holy spirit I mean, I don't have a problem that he's speaking to a collective of people And that collective he's not he's not telling build yourself up build up others that that's literally that's literally what he's saying That's literally how you take that I'm sorry. He says build yourselves up, right? The problem with english is that he looks like he's saying you if I say you wish you am I talking about Am I talking about you you or am I talking about you you all because I would say all of y'all The correct way to say it is to still say you right I want you I want you to go fight the good faith I mean go fight the good fight. Am I saying you singular or you plural? Well in english, you don't know but in the greek. I can certainly see it's plural. This is plural And just so I'm sorry though The audience is full though. I don't I don't know why that negates the point though Well, the because the point of what he's saying he said y'all go build up y'all He's not saying build build. He's not saying go go build yourself up. Go build y'all up Again, every other passage also points this way build up others Especially as we look through 1st Corinthians 12 and 14 1st Corinthians 12 and 14 is speaking about building up the body Because he gets even more specific when we go to 1st chapter 12 and 14 So so let's do this going back to chapter 7 And by the way, this is how we know chapter chapter 12 and 7 Hold on someone says chris says that accord says difference What I says my mind says he ought time which means himself Your right. It does mean himself, but it's in the plural. So it doesn't mean himself It can be used that way, but this is in the plural. So and that's a that's the point That's the point. So going back to 1st Corinthians 12 Is he speaking because you said contact context is key, right? If he's speaking about Building the individual body up or the collective body up. Well, what does he go into talking about? He goes into talking about how this is beneficial beneficial for the body Notice what he says he says and to one another at verse 10 The effect of miracles and to another prophecy and to another distinguishing spirits to another various kinds of tongues To another the interpretation of tongues. I don't know why this little highlighter has moved over Because I want to I want to deal with this word interpretation But one and the same spirit works all things distributing each one as he uh, each one Individual just as he will for even as the body is one and yet has many members And all the members of the body though they are many are one body Uh, so all so is christ for by one spirit We were all baptized into one body where the jewelry, uh, where the slaves are free now He's speaking Um, as far as we can see here. He's he's getting ready to let us know about how important Each individual body part Is beneficial for what that individual body part or for the whole body For the whole body you would agree, right? Yeah, and on the front end though, he said that god distributes this gift these gifts for the common good of the body So the perspective at least in that in that first portion is gods Looking down on the body distributing gifts for the building up of the body Which would lead to the health of the body as a whole which is where you're you're going next with it So exactly. So so all so so he's so he's saying You the benefit of you is not for you is for others Does that necessarily am I saying it negates that you having any sort of benefit? No Because obviously as the whole body does well if my whole body is doing well Then certainly in my hand is doing well also if my feet are happy my hands are happy that I get that But the point is we're speaking about the gifting of That individual body member or that member of that body part. And so that's the whole point Everybody part is for the benefit of the entire Body not to build yourself up. And that's the point nowhere in scripture Do we find the bible telling us to build ourselves up? Now am I saying that means that the that an individual member can't receive any sort of benefit? I'm not saying that but i'm saying the point purpose of the gifting Whatever the spirit moves is not find the passage where the gifting is moved for the benefit of that one person No, it's for the benefit of other people is for the benefit of the body The word is preached through there's knowledge. There's healings all these things Is for the benefit of the growing body grow the body Upward and outward so that that we have more to the body and that they grow So so we grow in numbers and then we also grow spiritually, right? so there Just just to just to tell you we would have to disagree on that because when you make a statement You just said we don't see anywhere in scripture where it says that a gift is for your own building up But my point was we explicitly see it stated twice in 1st Corinthians 14 and in june 20 at the minimum Well, you you you you said that your understanding of the greek has a different nuance and you don't read it that way I don't see it that way So that we probably would just have to agree to disagree on that point So then I have so so then we would have so then we would have if we go back to 1st Corinthians um We put the back on the screen 1st Corinthians. What was it 10? Corinthian I think it was 10 20 at 10 24 If we go back to 1st Corinthians 10 24 let no one seek his own good Or 1st peter 4 peter 4 10 Then wouldn't that be in stark contrast? What we said as each one has received a special gift Employ it in serving others as good stewards But then we come back and say, you know what no don't employ it And serving each other employed in serving yourself build yourself up instead You're conflating two things he said because he starts chapter 12 off I don't want you to be any concerning spiritual gifts So go back to what verse was that that you just read out of Corinthians 10 seeking your own good 10 24 24 I actually have it highlighted in here too. No one is to seek his own advantage But rather that of his neighbor even anything that is sold in the market without asking questions for the sake of conscious he's He's saying don't be self-indulgent to the expense of others. It's just a common And we all know that you know What's that what book is this in what letters it's in? 1st Corinthians 10 24. I'll just went to the next verse. No, I understand. I understand the reason why I asked a question I knew it But what is Paul writing about in 1st Corinthians? The division and all the issues they were having be no divisions. We'd be unified everything for everybody else Because there was confusion even about this meat sacrifice the idols even in that He seemed to say two things that are contradictory It was a chapter and a half or so before He's saying oh that stuff's nothing idols are dead Don't worry about it and then he turns around and is saying hey You know the pagans that sacrifice these things sacrifice under demons And matters of conscious and all of this stuff and not being a stumbling block for your brother So there isn't I think you're missing it. I think sam you're missing So paul is saying because what did you say before verse 24? He said all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable What's his point? These foods I don't want y'all to get hung up about it, but what I don't want you to do is let that be a stumbling stone for who? Not yourself Yeah for others for others paul has this same thing woven through from the beginning to end I don't want your concern. I won't be speaking in public without an interpretation or you're going to be Blocked others. I want your concern to be for the benefit of others Yeah, what does what's the one thing paul says to pursue? love not yes Love why because love is born out towards who towards what you do for yourself and to find yourself And so think about think about the the implication If these tongues that you say Are for the building up of yourself So god gives certain people the ability to build themselves up but not others Well, he says the earnestly desire the spiritual gifts Okay, no, he said he says pursue pursue love earnestly desire the spiritual things in order that now matter of fact I don't want to go too far because I Things that he said in in chapter 12 and we know that because then he goes that length about two in particular Ironically the main one to your point being tongues Okay, notice what he says here and let's hear him so we can run 14 In 24 let's start in 24 Whereas our more presentable members he's speaking about there's no no particular gift Or part of the body that is more profitable or better off than another Which is what we see here because what do we see happening in first in the church of karim? We've got people desiring going after Literally pursuing certain gifts Because they think certain things are more honorable than next he says whereas our more presentable members have no need of it But God has so composed the body giving more but an honor to that member which lack Look what he says in verse 25 So that there be no division in the body that theme again But that the members may have the same care For one another my theme is still being validated The whole point is that the body be edified by the other That's the whole point and if one member suffers all the members suffer with it if one is honored All the members are honored So the now you are Christ's bodies and individually members of it and God is appointed in the church first And I don't know why my my my deal is moved My little underlines have moved but I want to I want to point out something where it says these these tongues The same word that's used there is the same word for glow size Are all not apostles or all not prophets Are all not teachers obviously not are all work as word uses is may and pante so not all Do all have gifts of healing do they do all speak with tongues and there's a word Glow size la lay or in this case glow size la lucin so the word la lay oh and glow size that we saw in acts to mark 16 that that phrase That you would say or that you said that that would refer to An unknown tongue is the exact same phrase that we see in 1st Corinthians 12 and 14 as well as in acts to and Mark 18 So the greek is clear we're speaking about the same thing and oh by the way Do all not speak with tongues knows what he says do all not interpret this word this shoes here This is where we get our word hermeneutics. This word literally means to explain This brings about understanding This is why and this word is going to come up a few a few other times in 14 Because paul doesn't want you to be ignorant. So he says do all speak in tongues do all interpret Well, the interpretation this part here is also in acts to this very same word is also in acts to This explaining Oh, by the way As I as I tried to get across to uh to dr. Brown We got one time in the bible where we literally see it used We don't have any of the time in the bible where we see interpretation Actually used except for acts chapter 2 when peter gets up and explains What the word actually means to the crowd and so when we get to 14 This is the issue because they said no, they said that we we read that in the beginning core They said that we hear them speaking in our own language And they were talking about it Who did it says what tells you people coming in from all over so all of the people Go back to acts chapter 2 verse 7. Okay And let's just read it They were amazed and astonished saying why are not all these who are speaking Galileans And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born Parthens and me's and elemites and resists So we see these people who hear it in their own language The question i'm asking though were they the only ones who heard it Those people who spoke those other languages were they the only ones who heard it Well, no because if we just drop down a little bit further He says, uh, and we hear them our own our own tongue speaking of the mighties of god So and what they're doing is being the mighties of god Wait, wait, we gotta stop for a second because this doesn't again. It's a it's a logic issue In verse 12 it says they they all continued in amazement and great Perplexity sayings in one another. What does this mean? So going back up to verse 7 They're astonished. They're amazed if you're a if you're speaking in my language I don't need an interpreter so you're saying peter's interpreting it But that has nothing to do with what we're reading right here because so if you're in my language I understand it. I don't need an interpretation and if you did interpret it for me I wouldn't be shocked and amazed by that. I would be like, oh, wow, that's what he said Interpret all the time. They're not shocked. But wait a second the people that here's a question though The people that heard them speak their language those that were parthians and so forth me's people from epitemia Were those people that were hearing the the the apostles speak in their language Were they the only ones who heard or were there people who weren't me's Parthians from epitome were there other people there? Uh, it sounds like there were probably I would imagine there were other people there. I mean, I'm just have to guess Yeah, so if I'm there and I hear you speak in spanish or someone I have no idea what you're saying What are you gonna do then? What what must I have? Yeah, I guess I don't know. What's the scenario? I guess if we wanted you to hear we'd have a translator Translate if they could I absolutely have to have someone to interpret don't I you do. Yeah Okay, now here's how we know there was interpretation there That huh, but the people that we're talking about didn't need it. No, no, no see when tongues are spoken Here's my contention when they're spoken You have the speaker You have the target which is the person that's hearing it and then there's going to be in many cases someone around Who doesn't know what in the world is happening here? What what are they saying? Well, guess who needs to have interpretation Guess who needs to understand who who needs to know what all's being said All three the person that's speaking When they know the person is hearing well, they know because you're saying in their language And then also the people that are standing around and does that happen? Yes You're having to add in these other layers to I'm getting ready to read it. I'm getting ready. I'm literally getting ready to read it I'm getting ready to read what peter what's happening here. So verse It's starting verse 12 and they all continued in amazement and great plexus saying to one another What does this mean? Well, who's the all what could be everybody there or just folks that was hearing it But then look what he says but others were mocking and saying they are full of sweet wine But peter taking his stand with the 11 raised his voice and declared to them men of Judea And all who live in Jerusalem. Let this be known to you. So who's he speaking to? He's speaking to men of Judea and all of those who live in Jerusalem So not just the folks who are from outside of Jerusalem, but all those who live in Jerusalem, correct? Because that's literally what it just said Right, but what would the miraculous portion of the story be? Would it be him translating to this third party that you're talking about? Or would it be the people that were shocked and amazed that these guys that don't know their language are You know glorifying god in their language. Well, it's both. It's both. Here's why here's why because you have the people who hear it They're hearing as they said god being glorified The people who don't know the language Well, what's happening they're being told About god being glorified because what does peter going to do peter then goes on and to literally preach and glorifies god He who is peter speaking to now? Peter then turns his attention and starts speaking to the people who live in Jerusalem Not just the people who had already heard and so here we've got everybody getting edified Everyone hearing it the people who speak these different languages as well as the people who live in Jerusalem And so and now note and I want you to notice the word of the shoes here For these men are not drunk as you supposed for is only the third hour But this is what was spoken through the prophet joel. By the way, this word of the shoes here Um, you're reading in though that he's even interpreting what they were saying It just says that they were speaking in their language glorifying the mighty deeds of god It doesn't tell us what deeds they were saying. You're assuming this word To say is this is what they were saying. They were quoting. Okay Okay, the reason that's a good way to understand that this word is used here See and happen here. This is what joe wrote about. This is listen. No, no, no, no This is what joe explained about This word the shoes here for spoken is where we get the word hermeneus or hermenea Which guess what that word is that's part of the word that's used for interpreting the hermenea Which means to to give an explanation That's what that's what he's saying and so what does he do now peter after he explains what's being poured out The spirit hold on what what does people what does people what does peter do after that in verse 22? He starts speaking to the men or the people of israel in jewsland He starts then glorifying god He starts speaking of what what did remember? What did jesus say they were going to do? After they received the holy that's why i said all of this goes together Jesus says you received my spirit and then what will you do testify of me? Then he meets him in acts 1 8 and says when you receive the holy spirit, you'll do what? Testify of me where in jerusalem and judea That's what he's doing to who to the jews then in samaria They go and do that then into the rest of the world So you see the gentiles and other people getting the exact same message Who's getting the message are we so so because think about what you're saying or i'm not what you're saying But what the implication could be These people from me from from mesopotamia and so forth all those other people They get the gospel but the people that live in jerusalem. They don't get it No, he gives because notice. He literally goes on and testifies of jesus from verse 22 on He literally goes on and do the does the exact same thing now does he say it in the exact same verbiage? Huh, that's a praise god It Tell me if i'm wrong. Is he is he testifying of jesus in verses 22 on down? Yeah, okay Did he testify did they testify of jesus in chapter seven? I mean verses seven on down to the to the people from the different languages It says that they were speaking of the mighty deeds of god. So what is he doing? What are those mighty deeds of god isn't what jesus said they were going to do Yeah, okay, so they get the holy spirit Speaking these languages to people who don't speak their language and then give the gospel to people who do speak the language He gives he's explaining what he just said to them. Now. Did he say verbatim? Probably not because you've got different languages being spoken of and so you could not say matter of fact You can't take hebrew and greek and translate verbatim But peter is literally doing peter and the and the game They are literally doing they are literally doing what jesus said they were going to do receive the spirit and then testify of him In jerusalem, that's what they are now and samaria Then they're going to do it in the rest of the world. Well, when is that going to happen? Well, because a god named paul saw it's going to show up and they're going to be scattered They'll go to samaria and preach the gospel They'll go to the rest of rest of the parts of judaea and the rest of the world and preach the gospel in different languages paul can make the statement. I wish that you all spoke in these different languages But there's a reason for these languages. There's a reason for these gifts And when we go to chapter 14 the very beginning This is what he says And I think we missed this matter of fact. We gloss over it It's there in the english and it's even vivid in the greek and so what I want to do Let's go to first chruth is 14 And let's look what he says pursue love Not not languages not tongues Not spirit gives pursue love Then he says zalute Desire dated zalute and desire or yet desire Tad numitikon, which is what he said in uh chapter 12 verse 1 The numitikon or numitikon is the things of the spirit desire the spirit or the spiritual things That's what he wants you to desire And then this next phrase right here Let me highlight this on the screen so everyone can see this this next phrase right here is vitally important. Uh, oh I clicked something. Click the wrong thing. Hold on. This next phrase right here is vitally important This is where it says malan de henna profituete This is where we see why We should desire these spiritual things or spiritual gifts including tongues What's the purpose of tongues? The reason why I said the purpose because this word right here. Let me put it. Let me highlight in blue This word right here henna This word literally me. It's a purpose clause. It means in order that so that it's the purpose of it So the purpose of desiring these spiritual gifts or these spiritual things Is in order to profituete prophesy not the gift of prophecy because all don't prophesy The point of this is to in order that you would give a revelation the word prophesy We have got it mixed up to think that it means a foretelling in 10 years or five days or 70 years A famine is going to happen. That's not what it means most prophets in the bible is not foretelling most prophets in the bible is foretelling Bringing the battle revelation the word literally means to inform to tell or to reveal right so Do so desire these spiritual things in order that you can bring about a revelation in order that you can inform Well, let's just say if what I say if my understanding is correct If speaking in tongues brings about a revelation Isn't that what happened in x1? I'm an x2 Yeah, and I you know, I've heard this argument and I just want to Be clear on something because it's my understanding And like I said, I'm not a greek scholar, but I do have very close access to one and we discussed this and And then just looking at some of the consensus another commentary from other people in the field it it is It is clear that that is a way to Interpreter understand that it's Possible like the doors open for that possibility from what I understand And then zooming out from there my position on this is this I I understand that there is a way to I'll put it this way. I see how you get to where you get with the subject of tongues Okay, you asked in your video that I responded to you said you people over there use the text To demonstrate why you believe the way you do now. I feel like that's what I I did and And we're going through that now I can say genuinely That I can look at the text and see how you come to the conclusions you come to I don't agree with them because I think you're forced to sacrifice context at every turn you have to I think we're already kind of seeing a pattern to some of that this evening But I do see how you come to the conclusions that you come to Somebody's things see particularly this subject. There's no this is, you know, no secret There's been a subject of controversy for a long time. There's a reason for that You know, it appears that and that's kind of my whole thing with it is that You know, I don't have to throw you completely out the door of the church because of Your interpretation of this because if I'm being honest, it does little it can be subject to interpretation That verse that you just read I think that the translation is correct I think the translators have it right pursue love yet earnestly I'm sorry yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy For one who speaks in the tongue does not speak to men, but to God for no one understands But in spirit he speaks mysteries Especially that you may prophesy now you say, you know, you can see that in the greek as in order that you may prophesy Well, that's the only thing that word can mean this word henna and let me just highlight it So you all can see it on the bottom of the screen. I don't think it is though and dr. Brown made this point, too I mean, that's that's wrong If you can find this word henna only means it's an it's a purpose clause as henna It's in order that or so that when you put henna and sometimes hati in other words But specifically henna that is telling you why you do what proceeded what you do proceed proceeding henna Is told after the henna so in order that you would prophesy Why is it not translated that way though? And well, it is Are there are there major acceptable translations? So we're not talking about the new world translation that have it that way And I'm going to ask I don't know Here's here's the one thing and this is if you if you take a greek course One of the first things they're going to tell you You pick up any any any beginning greek book. They're going to tell you that Uh, when you look at the greek scriptures and then to take what you see and put it in english Sometimes can be difficult even with the translations because it does require. Okay, listen You need to go through this and flesh this out because sometimes there is a difficulty in The old saying something lost in translation now John 316 Perfect example or proverbs 226 Train for child in the way that he should go when he's old. He will not depart But the problem is sometimes we get in the habit of just going off of the traditional translation But it doesn't mean train a child in the way that he should go when he's old meaning that when he gets old If you train him up the right way when he gets old he won't depart. That's not what it means I know the argument what i'm asking though. That's what i'm saying the The point is the point is Sometimes the text says what it says and you can see okay. I can see it meaning either way Just like john 316 john 316 says that whosoever believes in him Does a whosoever mean it could mean I can see it meaning that anyone who wants to believe in him Whosoever also could mean Whoever it is that is believing in him those to have two different meanings. Well, which one is it? Well, the greek tells us same thing here, but especially that you may prophesy. I can see where it where it can look like um in order that you prophesy or My question would be to those that see what is that what is that latter part of verse one mean But especially that you prophesy is he comparing? Prophecy with spiritual gifts. I mean what what's what's a but especially is a contrast. So what are we contrasting with? Prophecy with what? So it's Why would why would I say? In order that you may prophesy And then separate separate tongues. They're they're two distinct things Take so you tell me what does verse one mean to you? pursue love so that's Thank god for chapter 13. That's the most critical thing You can be an ungifted person on the planet, but if you have the love of god in your heart that you're doing really well So then yet desire spiritual gifts So do that because if you miss that you're gonna miss everything, but if you've got that you should Desire these spiritual gifts that I told you in chapter 12 verse one Even though there were no chapters and verses, but you know what I mean I just told you I don't want you to be ignorant of these So earnestly desire these these are a benefit to all y'all as we would say in the south And but especially that you may prophesy Then he's going to go on to contrast. Well, can I ask you a question? Prophecy do all prophesy? No, okay. We're talking about the spiritual gift Right. We desire it though. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on If Paul just said if this prophecy right here means the spiritual gift of prophecy And not all prophesy But desire especially that you have the spiritual gift of prophecy Ask ask the question one more time. If Paul just said not all prophesy Not all prophesy not all are gonna prophesy Right But now he says desire To have the gift of prophecy Even though he just said not all of you not all of you're gonna prophesy Yeah, well, I mean, does that make sense? Well, it's just an act of humility. We understand he also told you that God distributes the gifts as he wills Okay Now you don't have to agree with it But could you see if my way works when I say that the prophecy he's speaking of is not the gift of prophecy But in order that you desire these spiritual things so that you can inform so that you can bring a revelation so that you can Bring about revelation to the body. That's how all of us get saved. That's how we grow by informing revelation, right? That's the only way I see how you could read it that way But I think that in order to do that you have to again you have to isolate the verse out from What we already acknowledged was a connected thought even especially particularly going back to chapter 12 Well, he's We list he says concerning spiritual gifts same word now He says yet desire spiritual gifts same word and then he says prophecy and he lists that prophecy as one of the gifts in chapter 12 So it's all okay. I do see how you're Interpreting it that way is all prophecy is would all prophecy be a gift Would all prophecy be a gift? Um, is there a generic use for the word prophecy? Quite possibly but this one it would I don't think it'd be logical to say so based on the context of the sentence And the grouping of the three chapters. I don't think it'd be reasonable at all to assume that Okay, so here's the question then so now we have a huge gaping problem Okay, so when we go to verse two and the rest of these If prophecy if the gift of prophecy is what builds up the body And he's bringing up these two gifts I've got people that speak in tongues the gift of tongues and then I got the gift of prophecy And I don't have either one I can't edify myself And I can't edify anybody else Uh, I'm or at least I'm out of this conversation. I'm out of the loop here I think so You're saying that if you don't have either one of the gifts then you're your handicapped and then able to edify Well, I mean at least at least as far as this conversation is concerned. I got to do it some other way Yeah, I mean I understand how you could take the text and come to that conclusion You say man, I'm bound by a lack of words telling me there's some other way to edify But I wouldn't interpret that that way. I think that would be Okay Let's keep reading let's keep reading Um, and to see if you can see I'm asking you to see if you can see it now By the way, I used to be in the same camp. I was Tongues tongues tongues and so forth, but but then after a while reading like I don't know So verse two for one who speaks in the tongue does not speak to men Well, we got a question got a problem here. We got it. We got a problem If this is to be taken that I'm speaking to man. I mean to God That's what it says. Do we see that anywhere else? Speaks to now there's two ways you can take this either one He's saying that the person that speaks in tongues This is what is for Speaking in tongues. This is what it's for to speak to God And oh by the way We have to agree that this long long low size Is the same it's the same word that's used in mark 16 and acts two So it's just speaking in tongues That's what it is the same thing. So it's not it can't be a different meaning We don't have any basis for to have a different meaning. I wouldn't agree with that. It's the same word, but he says that Does not speak to men and acts chapter two clearly they were speaking to men. So the other possibility Reputation idea that you gave earlier was still men speaking to men. Okay. So the other so the two possibilities Tell me there's two possibilities. We got to figure out which one it is it one possibility is speaking in tongues is meant to speak to God The other possibility is speaking in tongues He's actually getting on them He's not in my he is not saying good job guys. He's admiring. Hey guys, that's the wrong thing Remember this letter is not a letter of accommodation. This is a letter of rebuke the entire letter is a letter of rebuke And so the question is what is he rebuking them? What what are they doing ignorantly? in chapters 12 13 14 So it's either one of two. I I suggest that what he's saying is all you're doing is speaking to God That's all you're doing only in other words speak to Well for what reason can I just say something? No because that that again It seems like each one of these arguments on Isolated it sounds logical. It's like, okay, that makes sense. I got the greek. I've got this I can read it this way But i'm always forced to cut my hand off somewhere else Paul says In verse 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all However in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind So that I may instruct others rather than 10 000 in the tongue I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Well in tongues is language and fine. What's wrong with that? He also says, um For if I pray in a tongue My spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. He says so what is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with my mind also So if he's if he's rebuking them as it seems like you're suggesting and saying What you're doing is nonsense and gibberish. Don't do that Then it would if Contextually would make absolutely no sense for him to turn around and say but I do it more than all of you and I'm going to keep on doing it Here's why in in my mind. Well, here's why because because as we're skipping over this Paul, let's drop down. Let's let's put on the screen him. Let's drop down to verse Uh, well, let's start in verse six Brother if I come speaking to you in tongues is that word again Speaking in tongues the same word the same word that we see in acts too Um, what will I profit you and I have it highlighted profit you because what is Paul saying? Well, if I do this, how am I profiting you? How am I benefiting you? Because again, that's the point that paul is trying to get across Unless I speak to you either by revelation or of knowledge or prop or of prophecy or of teaching So in other words unless I'm giving some sort of understanding. I can't profit you. It's literally what he just says He said in verse two. They don't understand. He said that you don't that's paul's point Y'all don't understand what you're saying because he's going to address the fact that you don't understand what you're saying And that's a problem. It's verse seven yet lifeless things Either flute or harp produce a sound. That's where you got the word phoné If they do not produce a distinct distinction in tones How will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp? For if the bugle gives an indistinct sound Who will prepare himself for battle? In other words, we need to know what's being said. It seems like So also you unless you utter by the tongue speech That is clear How will it be known what is spoken? Apparently we need to know what's being spoken And then tell me if this is an insult He says for you will be speaking into the air. I think that's an insult. That's him getting on them There are perhaps a great many kinds of languages in the world I'm sorry I just want to say I mean it's I think it's pretty clear what he's saying He's making a phrase these are this is the phrase he's selected be saying if you You know if you um Unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear How will it be known what is spoken for you will be speaking into the air? So he's just he's just reinforcing what he already said. Nobody's gonna know what you're saying. You're just okay So if no one knows what you're saying, you're just speaking into the air Weren't we just talking about that in the earlier part of chapter 14? No one knows what you're saying Yeah, it's it's still people so chapter 14 Chapter 12 The first part of chapter 14 the middle part and the end part It's all about someone speaking and no one's knowing what's being said That's the point and so he says you're just speaking into the air. Then look what he says There are perhaps great many kinds of languages in the world and all I'm sorry. No kindness without meaning Um, then he says if I do not know the meaning of the language I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian to the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me It's even more so if it's you speaking. You don't know but look what he says That's what he says. So also you Since you are zealous. There's that word that's zolote Desirous of spiritual gifts. Look what he says seek for the edification of yourself No, seek for the edification of the church and here it is therefore therefore Let one who speaks In a tongue same word la la on Glossi In a tongue pray that he may there's that word Where we get the word hermeneuse her may oh or dia hermero, which is to interpret to expand understanding Which is the same word that's used at paul and peter's using in ax 2 Pray that he may interpret pray that who the person that's speaking. So if you speak in a tongue What did paul just say for you to do? Pray that you be that you may interpret you understand that you know what you say He just said it I know I know that verse but where is he saying to do that because he tells you in a couple of verses He tells you exact the whole chapter is in a context of Where does he say to do that at to do what room that you need to be thinking that way? He doesn't say he doesn't say it says it right here. He says however in the church I desire to speak five words. Okay. Well, hold on. Let's let's keep going. Hold on. Hold on But all we know so far before we get to that part verse 13 Pray that he may interpret So far if you speak in tongues, who is this who does this apply to? Well, even at the beginning though, we know that we're talking about corporate or public the public worship It's the public setting that he's referring to Okay, let's continue for if I pray in a tongue My spirit prays But my mind is unfruitful That's not good, right? He's just saying he doesn't understand it. No, no, no. He says unfruitful Yeah, but I mean, that's what he means though, right? Okay. Is that good or bad? I mean, I guess again, you could interpret it to be bad I don't read it that way if I'm being built up then then the issues not what the scripture says about the issues I don't understand what he means about that because obviously it can't contradict Does paul present this as a problem? You're mind being unfruitful He's presenting it in a problem in the context that no one understands the language and so no, no, no He's presenting as a problem that you don't understand He says my mind is unfruitful That's you If your interpretation is if your understanding of that is correct If the way that you're reading that and soaking it in it, right? Then why does he go on immediately after this to say that I pray in tongues more than you all Okay, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. What is what verse 14? There's a problem Here's how we know it's a problem because he actually brings up a solution You don't you don't bring up a solution if there's no problem, correct? If we're gonna dive on it and let's let's let's do it. Let's look at the whole thing though. Okay. He says I pray in a tongue My spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful So yes, he does say his mind is unfruitful and you're keying in on that But the other parts my spirit prays So what is the outcome then I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also He even says I'll sing with the spirit and with the mind also Otherwise, if you listen to spirit only How are the places those that feel the place of the young gift to say amen But the point going back to where you're at though. He says I will do both. There's a separation So it's possible and we talked about this at the very beginning at the very beginning We asked I asked you and you you eventually agreed That a person can be saved Speaking tongues Have no idea what they're saying and possibly say the wrong thing Say something ignorantly, right? Sure Because there are people who speak in tongues who shouldn't be speaking in tongues And we can't differentiate. We don't we don't know who okay. That person legitimately has tongues This person done we I've never seen in in in 30 something years being in a church I've never seen someone go and say your tongues are different your tongues ain't tongues because first of all even Fake tongues. I've seen people who I knew wasn't safe speaking in tongues This is a bit of a side but just just bear with me with two seconds Have you ever seen somebody though go up to somebody in a charismatic church and they were speaking to tongues and say Hey, you're not supposed to be doing that in here in public without an interpretation I see it I see it every now and then as a matter of fact part of my ordination was that if that happens That was one of the questions If that happens, what do you what do you do? And so we we call for the interpretation and if that doesn't happen Hush up Hush up quiet silence. So So there can be someone that is legitimately I've seen this over and over again legitimately a christian Who have in misinterpreted First Corinthians 14 one to think it says Pursue spiritual gifts even just did a video on yesterday because it doesn't say pursue spiritual gifts. It says pursue love And be desirous of zealous for the things of the spirit However, that shakes out because the spirit he knows what to do not you and so it's possible I agree with that for the record. Okay, cool So it's possible and I've seen it Desiring to please the lord and and to be used with the spirit And force yourself to speak in tongues You are legitimately safe. You are desiring of it and you are because that's what I'm supposed to do And so paul is saying, okay, I'm praying you are you are really praying you are and and what's coming out Because you don't know what to pray or what to do is this tongue Tony making sense So he says you do that If I pray in a tongue my spirit prays, but my mind is unfulfilled. That's the problem Then paul brings about a solution the only reason you bring a solution is if there's a problem What's the solution notice what's missing in paul's solution? His solution is what is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit And I will pray with my mind also. So sam question. What's missing in verse 15? What's missing in verse 15? I don't know. Tell me tongues Tongues is missing how well, he's He didn't come back and say so the solution is going to be I'm a pray in the spirit and pray in tongues No, well, he tells you don't reverse before that do core He says if I pray in a tongue my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what's the outcome? You guys are praying in a tongue don't know what because remember we're talking about you don't know what you're saying Well, the question is to pray with the spirit part. I mean he just said that verse before The whole point is everything you guys are doing There's no understanding. You don't know. He says you're unknowing. You're ignorant. You are just speaking to the air Or mysteries in this by the way the part where says mysteries in spirit Depending upon which greek scholar and and there's just there's there's no way sometimes folks read there their Their their preconceived notions into it Is it praying and is he just speaking mysteries in the spirit or mysteries in his spirit if it's his spirit Well, then all bits are out paul is really saying you guys just screwing up But if it's in the spirit the problem is you ask whatever greek scholar There's just no way to know for sure. There's no some greek scholar say it's in his spirit Some greek scholar say it's in the spirit because that's one of those words where we can't get through but he says but he calls it a mystery He says you're uh doing something or saying something ignorantly. You're not knowing He says you're just praying or speaking to the air. You are unfruitful. Those are not good things to say And that's what he says Look what he says. He says I will pray with the spirit. I will pray with my mind This word for mind is the word noi or no Remember in the very beginning. I don't want you to be agnoing, which is not knowing or not mindful Here he says I will I will pray with my mind and I will sing in the spirit and I will sing with my mind So if I want to do something in the spirit, I should also do it knowingly Otherwise, if you bless in the spirit only How will the one who feels the place of the un gifted the unlearned Say the amen after giving thanks since he does not know what you're saying You don't even know what you're saying for you are giving thanks well enough But the other person is not what here it is not edified because the person needs to be edified I thank god I speak in and I'm saying this word tongues or languages more than all of you Of course, he does however in the church I desire to speak five words with my there it is again with my mind So that I may instruct others also rather than 10,000 words in a tone. The point is that he's getting it Don't nobody know what you're saying Okay, so now note now now now here it is he says brethren do not be children in your thinking Yet an evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature In the law is written here it is by men of strangers that were glow size head or glow size And by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people even so they will not listen to me Well, where does that come from that comes from isaac 28? Let's put on the screen Matter of fact, let me let me move something over. Let me put this here. Let me move the heater over Let me bring in the uh this uh Let me bring in the greek septuagint so we can also see the same thing. He says this is verse 28 11 God is giving this prophecy through isaac about his people now this prophecy isaac is telling them that guys At some point in time israel you're going to come back to me But in the meantime, you're going to go through a whole lot. Oh by the way, I'm going to choose some other people to um embarrass you to make you angry To speak to you they're going to mock you and also speak the truth to you. Look what he says Indeed he will speak to this people through stammering lips and foreign and here's that word glow size The same word that's used there tongues um He who said them here is the rest give them rest. I won't finish the rest of it But so this word stammering they're going to mock you and they're going to also give you this for And from people speak a foreign language the same thing and so paul is saying he brings the same thing back up in 1st Corinthians 14. Why does paul talk because we clearly know this is a language in 1st Corinthians? I mean isaac 28 clearly this is a language. You can't I can't find a scholar Or comment here that says this is anything but a language And so if paul uses paul is talking about a language you guys are saying stuff languages You have no idea. So what does he go back in 1st 14 and finish the same? He says so then tongues Uh are a sign not to those who believe but to unbelievers now I take this two ways For the person who's not saved it could be for you speak to them to get the gospel But also what is paul speaking of paul is speaking to these jews These jewish people who when they hear this it is a sign. It is a one of them Why do we say that because go back to acts 2 acts 8 acts 10 and acts 19 When these other people spoke in these languages The jews were they marvel they marvel at the fact that these gentiles Spoke in the language and it was clearly language. They even understood that All those were examples in an exact moment though in the film with the holy spirit though Yeah, but the point is what's the point of it? The point is to give them a sign And to give them the gospel Remember we've got a divided group of people at that point in time jews don't like samaritans They don't like the greeks Samaritans don't like the jews greeks don't like anybody else if you're roman Everybody's dog everybody's at the bottom in the totem pole the jews They're more superior than everybody else So what would happen and we see this in some churches today if the jews said well, we're out We all believe in christ jew and gentile, but us Us jews we got the holy spirit. You guys don't and so what happens the samaritans get the holy spirit Well, that's okay because they're at least our our half cousins our jewish cousins, right? That's okay, but then they marveled really marveled when the Gentiles got it. Wow. Are you serious? Then the last group of people to receive the holy spirit are john's disciples and the reason why the bible makes it clear Is because they were the first they were the forerunners preaching about jesus and they don't know anything about the holy spirit They're still doing what john had to do And so everybody gets a holy spirit And everybody recognized that the holy spirit is for Everybody who places their faith in christ and so that's why he's that's why he's going to isiah To go back uh to bring to let isiah or bring in the prophet They said that these greeks are also going to be brought in I'll call people who are not my people to be my people those who are not beloved people love I'm going to make you jealous by them. They'll speak to you and you still won't listen I'm going to use these languages to speak to you no matter where you go If you're scattered because guess what jews you're going to be scattered. You're going to be taken out of israel I'm going to take out the land I'm going to put you all over peter's writing to jews who have been scattered And so somebody has got a preach to them and you guys still aren't listening. I'm speaking you with these other languages And you guys still aren't listening. That's what peter. That's what paul is bringing up here and then verse 23 He says so therefore if the whole church is assembled together Uh and all speak in languages Speak in tongues and ungifted. That is those who the word ungifted is those who are common and ignorant person He comes in or an unbeliever So it's the so it's this jewish person any unbeliever Uh enter will they not say that you are mad? But if we prophesy well, we all can't be prophesying Unless he doesn't mean the gift of prophecy He means the generic use of it Which is what we all do when we open the scriptures and we bring about a revelation of god That is the generic word for it. I'm sorry Quick can can we go back to two things real quick? Yes, I just I want to hear your opinion on this But if he says that tongues are a sign Not for those who believe but to unbelievers And then he turns around and says therefore if the whole church assembles together and speaking tongues And unbelievers enter will they not say you are mad? Then what what is the value in the sign if their response is You people are out of your mind because when you're in the tongue when you're in the church and someone comes in who We're in an English church you walk in the church and folks walk in Because guess who wouldn't be showing up more likely But we're in a church and we and we all start speaking Mandarin Or some language I walk in I'm not saved Um, I'm ignorant. I walk in what in the world is happening here But if I bring about a revelation if you bring about if you open that word If you open that word what paul says the power of the gospel it begins to cut it begins to work through me And guess what begins that because now the spirit is at work Then the spirit begins to convict and all of the things all my sins not bearable for the people No one comes in to say guys. Guess what I've been sleeping around. I've been drinking. I've been stealing I've been lying. I ain't paid my tax in 27 years They're not doing that But they are convicted all their secrets are labeled. He is convicted by all and he is called to account by all This word convicted saying worth issues when speaking what the holy spirit does when the when the power of the gospel is preached People get convicted People are like, yeah, yeah, that's me That's me, but you go eat kind of a hoshana or rosa that what does that do? Nothing I know because for 30 something years. That's what when I for 37 years before about something 10 years That's where I was And no one I never seen anybody. You know what these folks are shouting and speaking tongues Let me get saved No, but when I give you the gospel because we don't give gospel out in tongues. Do we we don't give tracks out in tongues Here here's a here's a track. I wrote it in tongues. No It's in your language and you understand it when I speak to you And so what what has happened is we have we have decided that The best thing to do is to speak in these tongues and if the tongues don't make sense Remember Paul just said you need to explain it yourself. You need to understand it if you don't understand Then first of all, you are a barbarian to yourself. You're supposed says, what's the problem? Here it is. I'm praying a tongue now. I'm praying for real I really mean what I'm praying like my friend Yolanda who would go before the church Tearing for the holy spirit wanting to speak in tongues. She's out there praying She's giving out food to the homeless. She's sharing the gospel But she's taught to believe that I got to speak in tongues. So she's crying. She's distraught And then so one day she goes before and it's like three four weeks of tearing for the holy spirit So to speak she starts speaking in tongues Everybody just erupts. They just singing and praying. Hey, man. Hold. Hey, hallelujah Talk to time. I'm talking Yolanda No, I just I just forced it But everybody thought she did because guess what her tongue sounds just like everybody else's Yeah And so and so my question is why and I'll never forget asking the bishop Why do you because he'll go speaking in English and then all of a sudden go to tongues and back to English? What what did you just say? Why I don't know shouldn't you because we read in the scriptures He said well, it's just how the how the spirit works and I'm just edifying myself. Why Why are you edifying yourself and then how come I can't edify like you? What what am I missing? We don't have second-class citizens like that. And oh by the way the interesting thing is after After all of this is done paul is is writing the church of karim We never see tongues brought up again. This wasn't the last letter that paul has this is one of the earlier ones paul's writing this letter and no one not paul or peter Or james or john. No one brings this up again Someone said that wasn't genuine tongues, but everybody thought it was genuine tongues I'm just reading somebody's comment everyone thought it was and her ungenuine tongues sound just like everybody else's That's what made everybody else when she starts speaking to her fake tongues Not even knowing what she said all the other tongue speakers started speaking in tongues And i'm pretty sure that if he were there do the same thing because that is what happens When I go down I would go to get to for prayer But just could I just say though technically In honor of what the scripture says you're not supposed to do that So really that whole scene I mean from what I read at least Regardless of what you view tongues to be but for the sake of this conversation They obviously had a charismatic persuasion on it. That shouldn't have been happening that way. You're right And it causes it it lends to a lot of this problem anyways in my opinion That's the way how I understand what's being said in these passages. Can I can I tell you what would be funny? What would be interesting? How many people How much how much for tongues be an issue if everybody who said they spoke in tongues Only spoke in tongues privately. I mean their wife. No one ever heard them speaking tongues. They did it by themselves Guess what? Or if they did if there was an interpretation because I've seen that happen I've been in a church where there was a couple instances where somebody spoke in tongues A woman stood up and gave an interpretation and I don't think anybody second guessed it because she didn't say anything that was You know heretical it was all I don't remember specifically what she said, but It didn't it didn't raise many eyebrows people running around swinging off the chandeliers shouting in tongues. It's a different environment, you know Because because Let me ask you a question Paul's saying in in what he's writing here from the way I understand it now and and just for for everyone else's understanding I don't the bible goes on said don't do not forget tongues. I don't forget tongues If I I say this if your tongues if you're Healing if your prophecy whatever if it looks like it looks in the bible. Hey man, praise god Do I believe they're going to be at least a point in time where someone might need these this gift? In some place Mesopotamia someplace some some some hidden part of the world that we have never received the gospel Could that happen? Sure? I will never say the lord can't or won't But what we're seeing though here's what here's the problem And this is how I think we are diminishing the beauty of the holy spirit because we're calling something cheap As though it's the real McCoy We are now accepting forgeries As the real deal we are we are taking knockoffs as the genuine and then calling it genuine and when someone says hey That ain't right. That's what I see. Well, you don't have the holy spirit I will put my experience with the holy spirit against anyone that says otherwise Now what I do know is this I've never seen this happen I've never seen a person be so filled with the holy spirit. I might say yeah, it happened I haven't seen it now. I'm 51 years old now I've I've seen a thing or two not everything but I've seen a thing or two I haven't seen a person get pulled over by cop And go to speaking tongue never seen a guy at the iris office go to speaking tongue I've never seen a guy before the judge go to speak. I haven't seen it At the at their most present need pressing need You don't see it in the grocery store and go and just let it go Now does it have it may I don't know I'm gonna buy yourself not with a group of people but by yourself You don't really see it happening But when they get around other people in the church or in a setting where it's acceptable They do so like you don't see Eagles fans my brother's eagles fan. Y'all so he's a good one You don't see eagles fans just sitting around by themselves Well, you might not take it back just sitting around just go to cheer and just go, you know Normally if the game is on or you're around other eagles fan or the sports fan, you know Then fine, you're cheering do stuff But could you imagine the guy sitting in sitting in his in his living room? And he does the wave by himself That don't look right. Now you do it in the midst of everybody else That's appropriate. And so there's a mentality when I went up to have to be so-called slain in the spirit Have them lay their hands on me I was all ready to fall all ready to fall But it dawned on me I don't want to do about I don't want to be fake at it Because I see people falling and then when they fall they look around like, okay, can I get back up? I want to be legitimately used by the spirit and if it doesn't make me fall with an amen I don't have to fall And he touched me Now i'm standing straight I don't have my feet don't face that way they face this way So it's easy to push somebody in front of them and fall back And fit with with very little force to feel like that was a spirit because i'm trying to i'm trying to succumb to the spirit I'm zealous because notice what paul never said paul never calls any of these people Who he who I say I believe he's selling you guys with misuse and tongues. He never says you're not saved He just says Let's do it this way. Let's let there be some order to what we do And if you want to be desiring or zealous for something be zealous for the building up of the body me If you pushed me if you touched me, I didn't fall and I felt good. I was like, you know what at least at least Um, I wasn't fake I might not had a holy spirit, but I ain't fake now. I knew better that I that I did have the holy spirit um, but I don't see this How I see this is every time tongues are spoken in math, I mean in mark in isaac in ax 2 First Corinthians 12 first ring 14 the same words are used The same understanding is that it's a language Jesus tells us what this is going to be for matter of fact, even before Jesus makes a statement of what this language is going to be for Isiah tells us what this language is going to be used for as well. So isiah tells us what it's going to be used for Jesus in John 15 and acts one tells us what it's going to be used for And so if he says this is what it's going to be used for then That's what it's going to be used for Can I can I know we're running low on time? Could I make a couple of sure? Sure? So I want to say two different things Just dealing with the subject tongues I hear everything you're saying and I said it earlier I understand how people who view the subject differently can come to that conclusion Based on a lot of the things that you went through this evening. You've gone over with your audience many times before But I struggle with taking that approach not just from my own experience because honestly I could say honestly my experience came secondary to to this But even going back to the idea of tongues being an evangelistic tool Paul specifically says I pray in a tongue So honestly, and I don't mind being vulnerable here and just being honest and transparent The part with this that I've struggled the most with which it sounds like when you came across it It is a big deal to you also I agree the the passage in isiah that paul refers to To me is the biggest curveball of the whole thing for me I'll have the position I have and I kind of touched on it and I'll go back through it real briefly before we wrap up right now but At the same time, I know that paul already has a precedent in scripture of taking uh, um A scripture from the old testament and repackaging it to mean something different He does this in romans where he quotes hosea in reference to the gentiles, but yet hosea was referring to Those that are not my people be my people was the northern tribes of israel, right? No He repackages it. No. No. No hosea hosea is specifically speaking about israel playing the harlot and Him still like him still being married to gomer who was sleeping around the same thing with god and israel And then he brings up what he's going to do with these with with he brings up gentiles as well And so paul's not repackaging. He's he's he's laying it out. I wouldn't say that paul repackages it differently well Well, we kind of talked about some of the other stuff I do on the front end I wanted so I actually I agree on To the furthest extent to what you're saying, but he does take the The specific passage in its context was to the northern tribes. You could pull it up if you if you want to in hosea Either way, I was just saying that The azea passage is the the biggest obscurity to me But when I weigh out all the data paul says no one understands. So if I'm speaking a known language Someone understands he says when I pray in a tongue No one understands and he says I do not speak to men but to god And this was some of the key points I went through in the response video This is why I hold the position that I do These are explicit statements that I have to deal with He it doesn't matter if there's you know Who speaks what language and this person comes in and they're an unbeliever. He's saying in a tongue I do not speak to men So to me that it just eradicates any speaking to men, especially whenever he Finishes the statement or the idea and says I speak to god And to me that makes sense and is in concert later in the passages just down a little bit whenever he says that my spirit prays But my mind is unfruitful. Jesus tells us god is spirit those that worship and must worship in truth and in spirit So for me, I hold a position that would view And not to get off on a whole bunch of tangents, but we have this this triune body You know, we have our body our mind and we have the spirit and so that's what I I see Uh indication or evidence of that even in what paul is saying So it's just another layer of confirmation for me when I'm reading these things And I'm trying to discern what's going on and understand he's saying my spirit is praying I'm speaking to god. Well paul doesn't say that he his spirit does paul doesn't say that he prays in a tongue He says in verse 14 for if I pray in a tongue my spirit prays ian ian Prasuka my close eye So if I pray now where he does what he doesn't his point is still that if I do pray in a tongue My spirit prays my mind is unfruitful So he says because he says earnestly desired a spiritual gift He already qualified the tongue as a spiritual gift and then he says right after this I pray I speak in tongues more than than all of you I thank god that I speak in tongues more than all of you so I would to me No, no, but wait a second wait a second when paul's saying that he speaks in tongue paul's not saying that when he does so that he does so where he didn't have any understanding Because paul is telling make sure that you you ought to pray that you understand that you interpret that they've been interpretation Let's say you determine if you're if you're in public That's why he goes on to say that he says if you we didn't get down there But he says that if if anyone speaks in a tongue it should be by two or three or most at three I'm sorry at the most three and each in turn and one must interpret But if there's no interpreter he must keep silent in the church let him speak to himself and to god So he makes it very plain that the context of what he's saying is in the public gathering to the points that we've made We've belabored them tonight that people don't they're not going to understand it. Therefore it does not edify them It's not beneficial. We've had situations where and we've talked about this but somebody's in in the church Speaking in tongues whatever whether it be legitimate or not and it's causing confusion especially when people that are being Loaded down with agnosticism and all of their popular culture coming to our church and we want to give them the gospel And sister or brother so-and-so is going off in tongues They have no background of this and they think it's madness and they're confused and possibly walk out or at the least they're bewildered and and it It throws them off from the focus They should have on which matters the most that we're trying to get across in that environment And so That's how I process everything that i'm reading there come to my conclusion Then my experience comes on the back end of all of that and it just so happens Seems to to line up with all of these things Well, I would say this and this is kind of what what took me down the journey We can go ahead begin to wrap up but I My my journey to just going through the scriptures was this question that I asked that I asked a pastor um why What's what's what's happening trying to understand and he didn't know And so the question was me and another brother another brother would be named Michael The question was aren't we supposed to understand what we're saying? And so the question I would ask is anyone who speaks in tongues If you read chapter 14 or 12 as well Are you supposed to understand? What you're saying are you supposed to know what you're saying? I don't know how you can read chapter 14 Especially verses 6 going down and come away with the conclusion that you're not supposed to know what you're saying that you're supposed to be Unknowing You're so I come away with the conclusion that you are supposed to know to be knowing whether it's as we talked about earlier Whether whatever the gift is we're supposed to be not ignorant unknowing So pa and then paul says I want to pray I want to have understanding I want I don't want my mind to be unfruitful The solution is that that I that there is understanding and so if a person prays If you can pray in tongues both he says I'll do both Which means if you're going to do both that means you have to have understanding right You got to have understanding I think he's saying I'm going to do both because if I only do the former then my mind doesn't have understanding and I want to do Both I want okay, so the problem was Understand in my mind the problem was an unfruitful mind. The solution was a fruitful understanding mind, right? Yeah, he okay. Yes, so if I'm praying in a tongue if I'm speaking to whatever I'm doing and my mind is unfruitful I don't know what I'm saying. Don't do that If you feel like you can pray in a tongue, you know what you say, okay fine. I'm not going I you know, I I'll do something else. I'll go build a giant lego castle castle rather than trying to get you to see it But if you feel like you understood what you just said fine, but he literally said paul literally says Pray that he may interpret that who should pray the person that's doing it Pray and we know matter of fact, let's put on the screen before we leave. He says Therefore the one that's speaking how alone so the one that's speaking Though how alone close out the one that's speaking his language He should pray It's an imperative by the way, so he should pray. He must Go to pray in order to do what here's that henna claus again in order that he interprets Who interprets the person that's speaking in the tongues? So you can't come away with I speak in tongues But I don't know what I'm saying not according to the greek And someone could be mad core. You're not using spirit. Well, the spirit gave me the greek gave us the greek And so if you look at this passage and you think it's okay to speak in tongues and not know what you're saying You are going against what paul says in first chrithians 1413 setting Huh in a public set in a public setting that's not what he gave he didn't get the public he didn't get the public setting He didn't get the setting he says if a person was praying in tongue if a person put on the screen again I I can't add to it I now I can make it apply to the public and private setting through it. That's that's that was what the whole Fine, let's let's say he's talking about a public setting. Let's say this Let's say and this for all the people in the chat who and those that I'll watch later If you think paul is only speaking about a public setting Give the example of paul ever speaking about a private setting There is no such setting if if paul is talking about a public setting here Well, then where is the priam? Where is him addressing tongues in a private setting? Well, he said he says it in multiple places. He says one who speaks in the tongue does not speak to men That will be public but to god Inference would be But wait, whoa, he He just said he's speaking please Application would be private. Let me say that way hits the rest of what he says now Are you adding to that because if if 14 is about the public setting if if all he's talking about in chapter 14 is a public setting See how how was how was verse? two three four and five How was verse two three four and five private versus six through 15 or 20 public Okay, so maybe I didn't say that correctly But I did say the inference is the correct application of the gift to be in a private setting Why and I said it hits the rest of the chapter Okay, the inference has to be has to be public because he says the one who speaks in tongue edifies himself but The one who prophesies edifies the church and I wish you all spoke in in languages But even but even more by the way that same word is used there I'm along the henna props wet day even more in order that you Proposy and greatest one to prophesies and the one who speaks in tongue He's not he's talking about a public setting here or private. We don't know All we know is he's talking about the person that's doing it You can't say that Verses one through five is private setting and then verse through matter of fact at the very end Five he's talking about public about the church may receive application. But then verse six is public He's just saying all I'm saying is if a person Public or private whatever it is According to this passage verse 13 You should pray that you you must praise imperative that you have understanding that you interpret You have to that according to this passage and you can't come back and say well, he's speaking in a in a public setting No, that's not what he's saying No, I plug in a verse out and dismissing another one and then we go to that one plug another one out Which one am I missing? All right, he says if one speaks in the tongue He does not speak to men but to god for no one understands but in his spirit He speaks mysteries Then he says but one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation a two-year point A lot of the purpose of this was for the edification of the body and then he's going to go on to Demonstrate Why he why he why you shouldn't be speaking in a tongue in public because no one understands the inference Even with them saying if I pray then my spirit is praying, but my mind is unfulfilled pray question. So It's my question preaching is prayer. So it's a question Here's my question. It's very clear and the inference is very clear. I'm I'm scratching my head in a private setting without an interpretation to me It's it's so easy to read and understand that's what's being said First of all, if he's speaking in a private setting, how does anyone know that he's speaking mysteries of god? He's speaking to himself. How do we know how could that be ignorant of the spiritual gifts? So no, no, no, no, no, no, how do we even know how was how was paul even addressing? People speaking in tongues privately If they're doing it privately How did he open up chapter 12? I don't want you to be ignorant of spiritual gifts or spiritual things There you go. How does anyone know because now paul is paul is writing Because he has a revelation from god. No, that's not why paul is writing paul paul. Hold on paul is not writing the church of karim because of a revelation paul is writing to church of karim because they wrote him That's fine, but i'm saying that he still has he still holds the revelation of What yeah, but what i'm saying is paul didn't paul didn't write the letter because the lord said Hey, I want you to know that this is going to know paul wrote the letter in response to them writing him About some things happening Right, he's so so here's my here's my point if paul is addressing what they're telling him Excuse me. That's happening. How do they know That they're speaking in tongues privately if they're speaking in tongues privately. They're not speaking in tongues privately They're speaking in tongues publicly. Yeah, they were they were wilding out So first Corinthians 14 is not about someone speaking in tongues privately. They're doing it out They're doing it publicly. So when paul goes to if ones he's speaking to himself I mean to god He could be he's doing it publicly the they know so that's why they're writing paul And so now by the way paul says if it's private Here's my question that that wasn't really my main question My question is this for one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men But to god for no one understands Which by the way, we're supposed to understand But in his spirit now, this is why I said is it in his spirit or in the spirit He speaks mystery. Who's speaking this thought the spirit through him speaking That's my question. Is the spirit speaking? It's too poor question. Is the spirit through this person speaking mysteries The way that I understand it is that it is a spiritual language Or you could say expression in which you are having conversation or prayer with god In the spirit it's purely a spiritual form or expression of prayer Okay, basically I was reading of the text that that would be how I would understand it So so the the holy spirit is causing you to speak in this language It was a gift of the spirit. So yeah, it's all by way of him. It said that in chapter 2 What mystery could you possibly speak to god? And then how in the world does that benefit you this? I don't think that's the the The nuance that he has on it. It's just a mysterious thing. You speak mysteries. It it it is a mystery So you don't you don't know what you're saying, you know, you don't other what other what other thing that we do What other gifting that we do that we don't know what it is that we're doing We don't even know the purpose of it if this is the spirit speaking a mystery It's for it's for edification. It's to build you up. It's to strengthen Or paula saying all you see there's two ways to say hey tongues are to edify yourself or he could be saying All you're doing is edifying yourself. He can say that because we know we don't have the tone the tenor We just know that he's saying so it could be You are you are you just speaking mysteries of the air all you're doing and you speak mr The air and you're building yourself up or he could say or he could say this way It is a possibly can say this way All you're doing is just speaking mysteries into the air and All you're doing you just edifying yourself but I want you to edify the body Is that possible also It is but the problem is when you continue to go through the chapter It doesn't really make sense to take it that way because then why would he say He promotes tongues. He speaks positively of speaking in tongues unto saying he doesn't himself frequently more than all of them Hey, what's what yes, you can take me that way and I understand that some people do and why they do I just don't think it's a good way to read and understand what the text is saying So ignore every time that he says in this very same chapter In chapter 14 seven or eight times or nine times He also says edifying build up the body Ignore every time that he says to build up or edify the body He's talking about you build yourself up You're not ignoring that and we went through that back on the front end of this discussion You are part of the body and you're important Do you think paul is saying to do that because you're part of the body or is he saying is your focus them Just like peter said your focus is others. You cannot He's saying that this gift Is for your benefit But the application of it without an interpretation is not going to benefit the rest of the body around you So when you're in a setting with your brothers and sisters Please refrain from exercising that gift without it being decent and in order without there being interpretation One two or three and one at a time. I can't I can't find a spiritual gift or use for spiritual a spiritual gift Not god doing something, but I can't find the use of a spiritual gift Working in somebody anywhere in the bible Where it wasn't used outward on someone else All those things I just said were But you can't say that may be so but here is different You can't see what you can do saying you can't say that may be so all that's correct Every other time that the spirit is used the spiritual gifts are used for somebody else Right here just for yourself To use before It came along in acts to with the exception of what's written in mark the out of here you said it again Said again Where do you see the gift in acts to Operating before acts to happens you don't And how much do you see it afterwards? outside of the book of acts Outside the book of acts we actually never see it happening The only time we ever see it spoken of is paul is admonishing them for the misuse of their gifts So why do we have to treat corinthians 12 13 and 14 any different? Because because paul is correcting them paul is writing this letter to correct them So if paul is writing to correct their their behavior in in the church Be it with themselves They're they're they're separating themselves based on who they follow with their families or with spiritual gifts Don't come but we can't come back and say yeah paul is correcting them But he didn't correct anything in first crinthians 14. He didn't correct. What what did he correct? What did paul correct in first crinthians 14 the wrong application of the gift? They were using it in public out of order or either they're being told does it say that Does paul say does paul say But what does paul ever say Does paul ever say don't use it publicly use it privately Yeah, he says it multiple times. He says don't speak if anyone has speaks in the tongue It should be by two or three at the most each and turn in one must interpret If there's a second, I thought I thought tongue was a private. I thought I thought he's addressing a private use though Cory listen that that's the most logical reading at least from what let me say this In your question you asked you said You kind of made the insinuation that people that believe the way that I do Don't use the text to support how they believe So I did a response video said no, you know, there's charismatic that we take the bible series too. I've You know Try to be in this thing without fail for almost 10 years now daily I love this word evaluate too. And so the only point was Yes, you can come to this conclusion using the text. I responded to the video And your question was just now, you know, was he talking about privately If anyone speaks in the tongue, it should be by two or three at the most and each in turn and one must interpret But if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to god Why because for the one who speaks in the tongue going back to verse two does not speak to men But That's how you're going to say that rather than speaking in tongues in public Go back and speak in tongues in private. But now you're not an interpreter Without an interpreter. No, but paul says you ought to interpret for yourself as what you need to understand yourself If you don't know yourself You're going in circles No, we're not okay because you because what you won't because this is the problem No one will ever address that you have to understand it for yourself as well I don't read that that way. That's how I understand that you read it that way before let no one who speaks in the tongue I'm sorry. Let one who speaks in the tongue. Excuse me Pray that he may interpret but my my submission to you is that the context of the entire chapter makes it very plain He doesn't have to say it explicitly. He's made it very clear what he's talking about This is to your point all about the edification of the body and everyone around you. That's the end goal and this misapplication of this Praying and that's why he says pray that you may interpret because and he just said it in the verse we just read Um In verse 28 and 27 Without an interpreter. No one understands and it's not beneficial or edifying to the body around you So I don't I don't read verse 13 to read the way that you do and that would be where we defer and I'm okay with that I mean, I would say this And then we'll go ahead and bring to the end here Because I used to wonder if because I used to believe the same thing it edifies yourself And then I would try to how does it edify me? How how how exactly am I because of every other gift? I can see how someone is edified How someone is built up Don't go into this one right here. I cannot figure out for the life of me how this builds me up How I'm saying something that I don't know what I'm saying, but I'm built up by it I was Cory lord Somebody how does this build me up? However? And I open that bible and I read Um, I I can get something from that I I literally get something I can walk away with something tangible. So I understood that I I got I got that and I applied it to my life every other time a spiritual gift is used You could take it and apply it and someone is built to be there physically or spiritually They're better off for it this unknown spiritual mysterious gift that I'm doing on myself I have no idea what I just did how it benefited me other than I felt I felt like something spiritual happened But that's really it and so I would say I'm sorry go ahead. I was gonna say would you be interested in just let me Answer that for you from where I'm at Because on the other side I'm somebody that practices this so there are times where And you know, I'm not trying to infer that this is what romans is saying because I actually don't read it that way Some people that believe the way I do try to bring romans aid in as well and say You can't you can't yeah, I don't I don't really I think it's too muddy to try to tie those together But the point is there are times where I don't know how to pray. I'm overwhelmed I don't know I don't even know specifically my need, but I feel the weight of life of the work, you know, whatever whatever it may be and If I go into my private place and I pray and I exercise what I understand to be the spiritual gift and I speak to God um, I come out feeling Edified and encouraged I come out feeling built up You feel like feeling that that sense of relief and that gratitude that clarity my The airwaves so to speak are cleared up and it seems to be beneficial to me It seems to be something that is productive and beneficial and my own spiritual vitality And because of that when I look at the scripture, it's like wow what that seems to sink into place Now could it be plausible? Possible that and is it plausible for it to be possible that I'm actually just muttering gibberish And the only reason that's happening is because God works all things together for my good according to his purpose because I love him I'd say yeah, it's possible But you know what I'm okay with that because I don't think that it's a salvivic issue And where I really this is the last thing I'll say because I know we got to wrap up Where I really take issue and where I get wound up a little bit with all this stuff is I see guys on the other side of the table and I said this in one of the videos I did um recently regarding some of this stuff They go too far and it feels like there are many brothers and sisters out there that I would consider brothers and sisters But because we interpret certain passages this way because we express our faith in these certain ways Not with stemming the fact that some people are way out of line And I agree that would have to be another subject for another time Where's the line that with things that people do that are charismatic, but um I I see that it seems like it's like oh well just either throw them in hell or throw them out of the church don't associate with them and I I feel like that's Way uncalled for you know, it's sometimes it goes way too far And we do better whenever we could do even what we did tonight I don't take the same view of the passages that you take and you don't you don't see them the same way that I do But I can genuinely tell you from the little bit that I know about you I genuinely see you as a brother and the lord and I think with all that's breaking loose all around us Especially dealing with some of the groups that I deal with It feels like sometimes reform brothers and sisters treat me like I'm them And I'm like, I don't think you really understand what heresy actually is I don't think you've really seen what it really looks like and doctrines of demons actually look like Um, I believe that we both found ourself at at the foot of the cross at Jesus's feet and that That puts us in a situation where we could do a lot better together than where we Divide which is what Paul had a lot of issue with ironically In this book over these things that I would deem trivial doctrines. Yeah, let me let me just say this guys. Um Sam Now we don't know what sam does privately so we can't basically but from all we can tell this is a brother in the lord And you can be charismatic. You can be pentecostal. You can be reformed or not reformed. You can be armenian. You can be Calvinist you can be you can be all these different things If you place your faith in christ, you are a brother or sister in the lord And so I've got a bunch of friends who are Charismatic matter of fact, they they they'll look at uh sam like uh, you where you're fired, uh, sam These guys, they're just super super with it, which is uh brothers is in the lord I got one of my one of my buddies uh from back on my um my tour Uh, he was as apostolic and charismatic as they came and I know he loved the lord His whole goal was to get as many people to christ as possible He didn't care whether you were charismatic or presbyterian or what and so guys be careful that we don't um take this issue Because you can you don't it's not what we know that saves us is who we know and then we grow in the grace and Knowledge meaning that we still have to grow it so Don't ever be guilty of throwing somebody out because they have a different Doc on issues as long as not one of the key essential that jesus died on the cross for our sins because we needed it That he is god Those are the issues those are non debatable those are not not negotiable other than that though We're still brothers and the lord and so uh brothers sam. I am so grateful for you. Thank you so much Um, I'm glad that I was I was putting together the thing that I was putting together just happened Just to click on the thing. I I can't remember if you tagged me or not I just happen to see it and so I'm glad I glad I did Uh, because nothing else I still think I'm wearing you down. I still think you'll be over on our side soon enough, but I'm glad that you were here Uh, so that we can see how brothers can even walk away disagreeing but still walk away as brothers. Amen That's right. I appreciate you bringing me on kory. Thank you. Thank you so much and uh guys I want to thank you all. This is too. Wow two hours But it's been a good two hours. It's been a good two hours. And so because of that guys, um Take this as an opportunity to go and study Look and see if if if you see my points if you see sam's points I'm going to remember to put a link in the descriptions to the video that he did a response to And then you can also go and check his channel out as well in the meantime guys. I'm tired But I'm invigorated. I love you all and I will see you all tomorrow God bless you