 Today we're going to talk about Alex Murdoch and Greg wants to talk about the videos we're going to watch Yeah, so these videos are from right after the police showed up to the murder of his wife and son so Just start the top take your time Like when I came back here, I mean I pulled up and I could see him and you know, I knew something was bad I ran out. I knew it was really bad My boy over there. I could see it was And I could see it Maggie and Actually, I think I tried to turn Paul over first, you know, I tried to turn him over and I don't know I figured it out His cell phone popped out of his pocket. That's Started to try to do something with it thinking maybe but then I put it back down really quickly then I went to my wife and I Mean I could see Did you touch Maggie at all I did I touched them both I try to take I mean I try to do it It's limited as possible, but I try to take their pulse on both of them All right chase, what do you got? Immediately as this clip starts and he's apparently just found his family who'd been killed instead of grief or Sadness or even confusion. We're seeing full body fear and all I'm gonna do is break down the first 18 seconds of this video. It's it's I think it's a minute and a half two minutes long That's all I'm gonna do here So let's go over what the fear does to the body just really quick The first thing is these muscles right here at the sternocleidomastoid muscles They jump out in front of the carotid artery and you'll see it when somebody has that expression You go watch a compilation on YouTube people getting the crap scared out of them. You'll see that then the shoulders come up then the humorous bones Come in toward the body and there's a natural tendency to protect the wrists and other joints By bringing them either closer together or closer towards the the body Facing away as much as possible from a potential predator Many times the lower limbs will move toward the groin so like the arms in men and covering the uterus area and women although I think there's Some difference here in the genital protection It's more likely to be during three key moments when you see genital protection in your future It's when someone is feeling vulnerable Threatened or insecure. Those are the typical three times that you'll see genital protection The rib cage lowers down slightly so you see his posture go down We don't have bones protecting the soft organs in our belly So this forward crunch is almost a way to bring those bones in front of those soft organs then The muscles in the body during fear become more rigid. It makes the overall human being More hard to attack and keep in mind. This is an analysis of the first 1.5 seconds of the village video Right after this he says my boy over there I could see I could see I saw Keep in mind as you go through all these clips the difference in someone telling you versus selling you So what's the difference between I could see my ball on the ground and my boy was on the ground One of them is an experience and one of them someone is telling you a story So as you watch these keep in mind that someone who has done something potentially like this will often just Show feelings of regret or shame or loss or sadness So being the killer does not make you immune to sadness or crying or anything like that and finally when a Dramatic event happens and somebody asks what happened people who are innocent almost never Defaults a chronologically telling you step by step the details of precisely what happens and their internal motivation to make decisions is Never explained. I did this because of this and because of that This is the most red flags I've seen in one video in a long time and I promise I won't go this long on the rest of Scott What do you got? All right? Well as long as you want dude, that's good stuff I want to pay attention to three things as we're going through these videos number one Let's pay attention like what Chase was talking about the growing protection number two his blink rate and number three that Kleenex he's got because Well, we'll get into that in a few minutes, but let's pay attention to those things the first time we see his his cry face kick in it Disappears instantly the second time the time it kicks in it lasts a little bit longer But it it it goes away Not really fast, but fairly fast and there are no tears Now when something like this has happened when somebody's just seen their wife and one of their children dead They're gonna be crying. There's gonna be a whole lot going on But you fact he wipes his face like he's wiping tears We don't see the head shakes nose quite often when someone has seen something like that Or they've been even told something like that that horrible that horrible has happened They'll sit there and they'll rock back and forth a little bit and they'll be doing this So they'll be shaking their head no because they don't understand why this happened We see no grief in the grief muscle up here We see no knitting of the brow so many things are missing from that his voice after this initial Engagement where it looks like he's laughing that but he's crying Goes back to normal as cadence goes back to normal his voice tone volume go back to normal his diction is spot on Everything goes back to just like you just like you would if everything was just fine Then he straightens out his Kleenex, but he doesn't use it and that's this is gonna be part of his show as he goes through Part of the one that uses it as an adapter a couple times, but he just goofs around with it So he gets a little bit loud as that before with that performance of the with the Kleenex and then it starts going away It starts getting quieter and quite often when a person has experienced something like this That's so horrible. Their eyes will be fairly wide His aren't really why his mouth of their mouths will be open their eyes are gonna be red and their hands are gonna be together They're gonna be like rubbing them or clasping them You're wringing their hands because they they don't understand why some harbors happen and their brain is just like Hey, man Let's not freak out here. So they'll be rubbing their hands together. We don't see any of that nothing and I'll leave it there. There's so much there. I can go up two years mark. What do you got? Yeah, I mean we could talk for an hour on just this one alone. It's bonkers I'm just gonna tell you one thing a Gesture that really stood out to me Which I don't I rarely see anywhere else than in a Michelin starred kitchen And and that is the the gesture of finishing salt when you when you put finishing salt over something when he crud when he cries Here's something. I've never seen anybody crying do to put their hands up here And then rub their fingers together to see if they've got tears or not to see if there's any wet Go back take a look his hand goes up and then you see him do this. It's Bizarre that alone that alone because it's an outlier in Anything that I've ever seen anywhere in the world So that alone causes me well other than you know at a really nice restaurant, you know And sometimes they'll do it from a height as well if they want to be really fancy about it. Yeah, exactly like so Yeah, so that alone for me causes me to go Okay, there's something going on here because I've never seen that gesture Anywhere before and certainly why do you need to check if you've got tears or not somebody who's really somebody who's You know loved ones have died. I'm not checking to see if they have tears or not Greg. What do you got on this one? Yeah, so this is a rare one for me because right out of the gate my BS meter is just wide open I could just stop right here and we could be done with this video I if you stole my bicycle I would probably be more upset and this guy appears to be at the beginning of this video and I haven't rid of bicycles It's 2003. So just to give you an idea this guy doesn't show any animation No sense of urgency. Can we get to the facts? Can you help me that none of that? He's just waiting to tell his story that that's an odd start The other one is think about the last time you went to a funeral where people know the person is dead They see the body and you see them an hour later their eyes are bloodshot their nose is kicked Nothing nothing. That's a red flag for me as well. This is right after right after he found his wife and son That's a big deal There's also in the beginning chase you're talking about his anger, but I hear his fear But I also see him rocking is he listening Ozzy Osbourne in his head or doing something as he's getting ready for what's to come What you don't know because you didn't clip this video is just before this There's just who are you getting names and all that straight then the rocking starts and that's preparation for what's about to come And then he goes um as it leads into it. Why why um why um? Don't have to have an answer. We just have to know there's something going on You look I with a sword thing when I fight I ramp up by doing something too I might rock my body and do that kind of thing a lot of people who fight do that martial arts folks do it But we don't usually associate with telling a story. It's not usually how we go I also said remorse doesn't mean you didn't do it and look if you killed your child They didn't expect to do horrific things to that child the things he describes You might still show it now. There's also a study from 2012 at the University of British Columbia That shows that the best way to tell when somebody is truthful or not about things like this is that That grief muscle we all talk about that we say Darwin and Dushane originally called it that for ease of Discussion is that little arts that we see up here That isn't ever present in folks who are lying it rare rare in folks who aren't lying who are lying What you see instead is this whole frontalis this whole set of muscles here draw down Does that look familiar? And if I remember the muscles here the zygomatic major I think they're referred to as the ones that tie off from your cheeks to make you smile A containment of that so that it can almost look like a smile Hmm that sounds awfully familiar to what he's doing go look at that study What they don't see is all this engagement in the forehead They see that down and this engagement of these muscles at the side He goes down the well you guys know I always say when a person's trying to cry they go down the well They find a reason they make it As horrible as they can and they can find a reason to cry but no tears come up mark to your point He tries to find it the interesting piece is the people sitting behind him feel it and feel bad for him and go to it interesting Then he says I figured out that he was Dead well I look we're gonna bleep bleep a few words in this thing, but go listen to the real words There's no doubt the guy's dead. You wouldn't even have to figure it out And then he's got a damn straight face all the time for what he's talking about and there's that side It looks like he's almost choking back a smile He goes I tried to take there and he pauses A few beats and then says pulse. There's so much in here Forget the fear forget all the stuff that we're seeing forget the wind up Ozzy Osbourne Everything else here is just not compatible with a person who just found and I'll leave it at this people react differently, but not All these different ways and clusters that we're all seeing So you you might be interested enough that this might be all you want to watch But there's a lot more hang on So, um Just start the top take your time Um like when I came back here I mean, I pulled up and I could see him and you know, I knew something was bad. I ran out. I knew it was really bad My boy over there I could see It was And I could see I ran over to Maggie Actually, I think I tried to turn paul over first. Um Um You know, I tried to turn him over and uh, I don't know. I figured it out. Um His cell phone popped out of his pocket. That's Started to try to do something with it thinking maybe but then I put it back down really quickly um, then I went to my wife and I I mean I could see Did you touch Maggie at all I did I touched them both I try to take I mean I try to do it as limited as possible, but I I try to take their Pulse on both of them And um, you know, I called 911 Um pretty much right away and She was very good I Talked to her um, I told her I was going to get off the phone to call some family members I did that um And um Family members, did you call me? I called my brother randy And I called my brother john And I tried to call the little boy real good friend. It's right around the corner from here, but I didn't get him All right mark, what do you got? Uh, yeah, so, uh, you know, I called 911 pretty much right away Uh, yeah, I don't think that happened at all. I don't think you called 911 straight away. That's all simply from, you know Then then pretty much Don't like those around around. I called 911 just I called 911 immediately. That's that's a good way to say it He praises then the law enforcement. There's there's no His son and you know wife are dead Right, who cares how good the law enforcement were at that point. You don't care how good how good they were You're not about you're not giving out medals at that point And and look and he's totally taken control of his breathing You know what what you what you saw at the start where he's where I think you're right chase There's there's fear there and I think there's probably a little bit of panic as well But quickly taken control of it. I think maybe those officers in the back Give him a bit of You know bolstered his confidence a little bit about this is working We can keep see his eyes kind of you know heading off to the side to check out is this is working. Is it working? And uh, oh guys, it's it's a fun. It's it's fun stuff I'm gonna keep it at that because there's there's plenty more plenty more to come Uh chase. What do you got on this one? All right in In this clip, there's a continuation of what you saw in the first one The groin protection has become more pronounced The emotion is gone the chronology the exact precise chronology of detail continues here And the emotional impact of these phone calls is missed There's no emotional impact when talking about these phone calls because a they're Potentially fake the story is fake and b The stress from having to fake this Is causing that emotion not to be there. I think it's unusual that he Felt the need to provide a customer review for the 911 operator Uh, this might be something in his behavior profile, though That's starting to reveal itself But let's see if there's any other evidence that pops up before my hunch on this Uh dies and I'll dive into that and greg what do you got? Yeah, again, we call that a fig leaf for obvious reasons when a person crosses their groin when a male crosses their groin to protect their testicles primary sex organs This guy's doing what I would call modified fig leaf. He puts his hand in his lap and you'll see him moving his hand fairly often But here again, look If I have the opportunity to tell you a story or say hey somebody killed my family and they're still lying right there They're probably close by can we do something to help find them? Not and um Uh, yeah, and after that and he's storytelling now and we see it because he says Hultingly pretty much right away mark to your point exactly pretty much right away not right away not right after that pretty much And then he mouth grooms which we only see a couple of times in this entire thing And we say mouth grooms our mouths get dry when we're feeling stress And lying creates stress in most of us except for those who are talented at it And if i'm trying to hide something I don't want you to find it I'm going to go and have that opportunity to groom my mouth You'll see it happen a couple of times in this one and he does a long vowel and Then then he goes into chase you were calling it something earlier. I'll call it clearing not steering He's going to give you reasons why he was busy and why you didn't you know all that kind of thing There's still no sense of urgency It I wrote in my notes. I hung up the phone. I scratched my backside and um And he's just given you a useless details that I would not give a cop if I were trying to find somebody He's navigating out of what to his way through what to say as he goes. She was a good 911 operator The only good thing in this entire thing is he is not feeling stressed mark to your point It's a great thing because it gives us some matter of fact stuff I call my brother so we can look at what matter of fact stuff is because this guy's not stupid He's not going to say I call my brother and then you pull his phone records and he didn't guarantee you He called his brother did all those pieces. So this gives us a way to pay attention to him as he moves forward We're going to see it in a couple of other places scott. What do you got? I agree with you We're not seeing those things that let us know that there's stress there We're not seeing very many adapters that should theoretically be there from the stress He's supposed to be feeling or going through During this we don't see any of that still no no valid signs of grief whatsoever From a body language perspective anyway His blink rates still really low. He's still covered. He's growing like you were saying And he's still goofing around that Kleenex still hasn't used that yet And he never asks why this happened He doesn't try to connect with that with that police officer and you know like you like they'll do they'll sit there They'll look at and go what you know out of confusion. They'll look at and go You know why what he never says why he doesn't do any of that This should be so horrific that it should blow his mind That that because he shouldn't be able to understand that But he doesn't have a problem understanding that because I'm under the impression. He's the one that did it So it doesn't bother him at all He doesn't need to do that the most horrible thing that ever happened to him He's not trying to connect with anybody not trying to go, you know, dude, what's going on? What what the hell nothing like that at all? um His head is is in the space that should be for what he's trying to do So he's thinking about all the things he's making sure his story is tight So he's he's relaxing now because he thinks these people believe him You hear that guy in the back coughing like he's got zika or something But that doesn't throw him either, you know, because he's like clearing his throat and do all that stuff as well but His head is right where it should be for someone who is who is who is Confident with Having fooled everyone that they that their their story is being believed. I think so that's what I got And um, you know, I called 911 um pretty much right away and She was very good. Um I talked to her. Um, I told her I was going to get off the phone to call some family members I did that um And um Family members, did you call me? I called my brother randy And I called my brother john And I tried to call a little boy real good friend that's right around the corner from here But I didn't get him What all was around um, paul when you walked up blood Any any other anything else? I mean there was some body things. Yes, sir. I mean like any other Evidence, I know you said the phone fell out the pocket. Um, but did you see anything else? That didn't belong or shouldn't belong or That wasn't part of paul No, sir not no not good No, sir, how about maggie? No, sir. You didn't see anything around them. All right, greg, what do you got? Yeah, everything we talk about in everything is about baseline So we start from whatever is normal for the person in the situation again It's not normal for you to sit around in your on your cow cheat and cheetos that that baseline We're talking about the baseline you're dealing with when you're asking non pertinent questions So we see some of that we see him starting off with more that same factual baseline And he's fairly normal until until he's asked about maggie. We'll talk about that in just a minute But there's no grimace or distaste or any negative emotion about blood or body stuff around his son Anybody find that odd? I mean all kinds of people deal with things different ways If you found a dog who had been shot you would probably have a grimace around that not your child Then I will say this we say sudden politeness matters But this is low country, South Carolina that sudden politeness is just politeness in the part of georgia I live in there people who refuse to call me by my first name because i'm older and so it's just part of the culture Just to point that out there could be a reason but I don't think it is It's out of character that he retracts the side of his mouth and does some odd thing Odd thing with his mouth he grimaces when he's asked is there anything around maggie He does that he absolutely does not answer the question nods his head a little shakes his head a little and makes eye contact for the first time in the entire video We talk about baseline. We talk about deviations from baseline ding ding ding I would say hold up. Hold on a minute. Why did you suddenly do something different? Or I'd make a mental note and come back and poke and prod it again and again and again Uh chase. What do you got? This guy's a prosecutor who which I learned from greg as we were kind of ramping up for this episode on zoom and He's probably tried a bunch of cases This is proof that no matter how many cases you do you don't get inoculated to not displaying the perfect behaviors all four of us You can go back and watch us through these videos. We get stressed out our blink rate goes up We have the same human responses that anyone else does It doesn't give you some hall pass to never display these behaviors again when you learn them And that's what we're seeing here a prosecutor who probably thought that he was inoculated Against all of the stuff. He knew what to say. He didn't know how to say it and that's the big difference And greg I'm just going to say this this politeness that we are seeing here is a spike And it's not really present anywhere else here And I'm you know, I'm arkansas. My family's off mark itself I see a lot of that but the moment it's just it spikes up higher than it ever does in the conversation So i'm just going to look at it as a one data point not some big thing that reveals anything Right about the specifics concerning the crime scene And he's gone from no emotion and minimal responsiveness to more responsive more eye contact and suddenly using the word sir I would just say this. This is a little spike here. That's concerning to me But notice also when he's being asked to think back and go through the crime scene There's no emotion and zero eye accessing We move our eyes around in our our head to access all kinds of details There is none of that here. This is another huge red flag for me scott All right I want to talk about one thing when like you were just saying chase when somebody goes back through that and you Ask them a question about what they saw or what happened and they're reliving that because they're there in their brain Seeing it they go into this blank stare almost as they start telling you about it We don't see that at all this guy isn't doing anything that normal humans would do And then in my experience so far the things that I've seen where a person Explaining what happened or describing a scene or what was going on there doesn't do anything They normally do or that I'm under the impression. They normally do There's there's nothing and you're right Greg when he connects with them It's but it's not that connection of what the hell there's nothing. I'm going to go back to what I said earlier There's nothing happening here that that says Um, I'm worried about this. I can't believe it. This has got me stressed It's this it should just be freaking him out and it is it except for that He tried to pull it off the top with that That fake cry which we all during the thing we got the giggles all this because it looked like he was laughing If you go back and watch that you'll see I'm talking about But man, this doesn't show anything it should be showing for someone who's gone through something so horrific Mark, what do you think? Yeah, I agree with All right, can I correct one thing mark before you start? Yeah, go for it I just double checked he apparently did volunteer work in the solicitor's office So he was a full-time brass skier just pretty knowledge. Okay Yeah, it's just too calm just too calm just too still and it's and it's not the stillness of shock Because the the tension would be in his body. You'd see him stuck there. You'd see some kind of catatonic state He's too soft. It's too cool It's too much like he's on, you know, he's sitting on the couch eating cheetos It's just that kind of softness and rhythm. I totally agree. He's not seeing the scene in his head We don't see any eye accessing. I don't care where his eyes go. I need his eyes to go somewhere Somewhere to search for information Because he would know he's being asked information because there could be a clue There could be a clue that could lead to the perpetrator Right now. He doesn't even bother to go and look for that information. Why because he knows there's no information there He knows there's nothing there that would help them find the perpetrator because they found the perpetrator He's sitting in the car next to them I mean just no shock no looking to the scene So nonchalant It's extraordinary and so different from what his tactic at the start I think he stopped that tactic because again, he got such a good response from the officers that You know, he thinks it's it's done now and he doesn't need to go back to that tactic there. It's all I got now Greg, what were you telling us earlier? We were going through some things earlier about the backstory on this. What else is this guy been into? What else has been going on? Yeah, hold on one second. Yeah, this family is really prominent So his I think it's his father was the last prosecutor, but from 1920 to 2006 They held the office of prosecutor for that county. It's a really big legacy of legal family Um He's got some ghosts in his past if you go look he's got some things around like a housekeeper who died that they had some life insurance policy on He's got some other stuff. There's a Kid who his son went to school with who ended up dying And there was rumor that his son was involved and there was the case was closed But it has been reopened by the district attorney as a result of evidence they found during this case He was estranged from his wife at the time of the murder and if you go read the headlines They say she was lured out to there Apparently he asked her to visit his terminally ill father and she said no She wanted to be in public because he was acting fishy. I mean, there's a ton of stuff in here Just go out and look for yourself. There's more than one weapon involved. There's a ton of stuff in this case There's just a lot for you to go look at we could spend an entire hour Just refuting and figuring out what's on the list of rumors and checklist as chase often says we're not The forensics panel. We're telling you what we see in this video and there's plenty. So this is good enough So, uh, greg note to self always get life insurance for domestic help. It's not odd. Not for sure for sure I've never heard of that before. Is anybody ever heard of it before? I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. Why wouldn't you? I mean Wow I don't just in case, you know I mean, I don't know how they make a bit of money out of your domestic help just in case they die There's so much information out here on these guys I think there's even a lot more like he's got financial crimes that if he were to get off these charges They still got financial crimes to face There's a ton of stuff that they've allowed into evidence. Just go watch Look, I don't want to be the guy who misquotes something. I probably have misquoted some of that But just go read there's so much out there on this guy. You could spend all day trying to figure out all the craziness going on this case The eye witness is you What all was around, um, Paul When you walked up blood Any any other anything else? I mean there was some body things. Yes, sir. I mean like any other Evidence, I know you said the phone fell out the pocket. Um, but did you see anything else? That didn't belong or shouldn't belong or That wasn't part of paul No, sir not no not good No, sir. How about Maggie? No, sir. You didn't see anything around them What made you come out here tonight? Um, I went to my mom's late stage Alzheimer's patient. My dad's in the hospital Um, my mom gets anxious when she does I went to check on them and Maggie Maggie's a dog lover She foods with the dogs and I knew she'd gone to the kennel. I was at the house I left the house and went to my mom's Probably just a little while Tried to call her when I left texted her no response um When I got back to the house the house was Obviously, nobody was in there. So I figured they're still up here fooling around paul was um Going to be getting set up to plant our sunflower seeds got sprayed and died and he was Refiguring to do to plant the sunflower seeds So I came back up here and drove up and saw and called An id Yeah, I don't know. I thought I read that was his friend. Hang on a second Up to this point right now We're talking about how we thought the guy in the back seat was was a police officer, but it was just odd and greg What did you say about I think it's his friend? I think it's his friend. I think it's his friend I don't remember but I think it's his friend. I'll tell you he's got his shirt open like he's robert wagner The only thing he's missing is those little scarves that go there or that ask what do you call that thing and ask God was that what's what's the scarf they put on the mark cravat cravat. Oh That's all he's missing plus they need to get him some kind of covet, you know Something on him this guy man. He's back there. Sounds like something's up with him. Sounds like it's maybe some of his last days Okay, sorry about that. I should cut all that out. Maybe it's code for shut up. You sound stupid It could be and so I'm gonna say this about him too and a little while his knee comes out Look how shiny his knee is. It's almost like a mirror. It looks it looks like it's so weird, man It looks like it looks like a polished piece of wood when it comes out his knee. You'll see in a few minutes Okay, I thought it was a cop. I'm gonna say about it. Man. I hope he's not but jeez. He's really got his thing together, man All right, uh, greg what do you got? Yeah, this is the first time we see him touch his face touches his nose Look, we you'll hear people say if a person touches their nose or line No, we we're not those folks what we're saying is look for a deviation in baseline and ask yourself why It's a pertinent question and a hard question. Why did you come out here tonight? Well, that's a good question and he uses his left hand touches his face Suddenly he does one of the most powerful male adapters that exist. I call it butterfly thighs And if you ever want to see men will flip their legs their thighs in and out that way younger men do it a lot It also includes your genitals when you start moving your legs and it has a lot of impact So that's a big comforting move for a guy to do you'll see it a lot in younger sports players When they're being interviewed when you watch them on night shows and that kind of thing All an adapter is is a way for you to release nervous energy and if we do them enough they become habitual So if you don't know what yours are the way you release nervous energy Ask someone next to you ask someone who knows you well because they know what you do when you're releasing nervous energy Maybe you pick your nails flip your hair do something like that Then he starts to tell a long story that has no pertinence to anything we're talking about And that is I went to see my mama my mama's sick She's got dementia and he goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on And he gives you the cookbook We call that chaff and redirect because an aircraft drops chaff To hope a missile will follow it rather than the story. That's what he's doing. He's dropping lots of details hoping you'll follow that and that's Odd usually but again My wife and son are lying a hundred yards away dead somebody murdered them and i'm gonna tell you about my mom's Jello she had for lunch come on And he's adapting like all hell with that issue with his hands and with the other He goes to that dog lover She foals with a dog Boom One shoulder rises We hadn't seen that yet. We see a single shoulder We often associate that with discomfort or not comfortable in the information they're sharing He does a pause He does a down left looks down left which we associate with internal voice And he does a head scratch We associate all of those things with thinking with giving yourself time to think he doesn't say what he saw What he saw over with her either with words or with body language or with tone None of that and I think the female law enforcement officer in the back Senses it because watch her cross her abdomen in discomfort as he's telling that story I bet if you went and talked to them and say this guy Day one. We thought he whacked her. We thought he killed his wife. That's exactly what I think you'd see Mark, what are you guys? Yeah, there's a cascade of negative statements victim statements really the parents are ill and anxious Maggie's a dog lover doesn't love him loves the dogs She falls with the dogs. That's negative rather than going she looks after those dogs so well If she's falling with the dogs And he's texted her and there's no response So she's not attentive to him and then paul Is associated with sunflowers dying so again not being able to I mean that will more of this story will come out And maybe he's laying down this story early, but essentially everybody is inept Ultimately parents are non functioning Wife loves animals and messes around and doesn't answer the phone and paul can't look after sunflowers so really casting A bad light on the victims there and and him being around people Who can't look after themselves or the things that are important or him? This is very different from uh a video that we looked at earlier this week around the The the boyfriend of nicola bully who went missing Maybe is still missing who knows at this point Um, but in that particular film He didn't create any negative attitude about this missing person. No negative attitude about the victim No, you know, she goes for silly walks with the dog and probably messed up somewhere and so it's so different here again that alone Is allowed A loud flag you can't have a loud flag, but I'm gonna say it anyway. It's a loud flag. It's a loud loud flag Greg what do you got on this one? No Yep, I'll go. Thank you This is detail overload There's a few things I want you to notice as you go through the video again in just a second Number one the detail and that there's the chronology of everything Is loaded and piled high But none of the details are about finding out who did this There is no request to investigate the scene or talk about the word murder It's the last word in the world that he wants to come out of his mouth at a moment like this And the confirmation glance is back and forth where he's checking that detective with every detail in this clip especially Just to make sure he's buying it are just a classic hallmark of deception It's one of the things we look for when we see a lot of other behaviors and they're outside of baseline Like we're seeing here And when he says obviously nobody was in there, I think he's telling us Potentially this my opinion as this entire video is just an opinion I think he's telling us it was obvious to him that nobody was going to be in that house Then finally we have something called severity softening and lack of detail There's tons of my new perfect little details about the intricate process. He's going through with these sunflower seeds Then what's the detail on the crime scene? Here's the detail on the crime scene in this video word for word. I came up and saw and called That's the difference between sunflower seeds versus dead family members here scott You know what? Greg when would you now that you've told us this guy in the back isn't a cop This makes so much sense the way she's acting and do you know what's make it? This is what I think here. I go from my rant, but you know what makes me think she knows something's up Think about it for a minute You guys think about this for a second. What's he wearing? white t-shirt Where's he come from? he's come from Two people who have who have been killed in a it's a bloody crime scene That he's put his hands on that he's been messing with There's no blood on this guy Nowhere And he's not using that Kleenex. He's not looking at his hands to make sure there's no blood He's washed his hands That's what's happened. He's changed hands. Yeah. Yeah, he'll tell you he went back to the house afterward. Yep. Yep Yep, that's what that's what's happened I don't know if that if that's if he he doesn't talk about it in here. Anyway, that's what's bothering her That's why I bet that because she can't see him. So it's something that happened beforehand It's got her thinking something's up with this guy. That's what I think that's what I think is happening there I just thought about that a second ago that Yeah, so anyway, that that's what I think is going on there But back to the body language part of it Um after the question you're right Greg He touches the middle part of his head there the middle of his brow there Haven't seen that yet of this other than then rubbing his whole face Then he does this really quick request for approval. That's another one of Greg's things where your eyebrows go up as you're Looking looking to get something okay, or you're asking a question. You need some information His his eyebrows go up and he starts adapting. I guess what you call that butterfly thing, Greg Then he starts using his Kleenex as an adapter, which we talked about what happened earlier Earlier we talked about that was going to happen A whole lot of movement in comparison to the baseline we've seen up at this point Up to this point because he's been fairly still up till now This is where it makes me think something would be up with this Then he starts going down this list of stuff and his voice is And then this Is this all he's just that's just a list he's rehearsed this He knew what he was going to say when he came into this when this question came up He's he's got his list of things that happened and things that he was going to talk about You see a couple of those little shoulder shrugs a single shoulder shrunk here and a single one there And then I'm full in there But the thing is with shoulder shrugs and you'll hear a lot of things about them But here's what we are under the impression or understand that shoulder shrugs indicate Is when one shoulder goes up really quickly That that says I don't I'm not sure about this answer I'm not sure what I'm saying if it goes up and stays like it will sometimes it stays for about a second or second Half same with a double shoulder shrug it stays up for a second if not it just comes up and down really quickly That indicates the person isn't sure about their answer not that they're being deceptive But it just says they're not sure about what that answer is and I think he's afraid He's trying to make sure he's covering every basis. He's thinking about that. I guess in his brain Maybe he's thinking okay. I've got that covered. Let me see what else. Yeah, I got that I think as he goes down this list. That's why we're seeing those things Um, but throughout this he still hasn't used that Kleenex for what you use him for And I think he's I think I think he changed clothes. I think he washed up and changed clothes That's what I that's what I think on that one. Let's see what happens. All right. We good Mm-hmm What made you come out here tonight? um, I went to My mom's a late stage Alzheimer's patient. My dad's in the hospital um My mom gets anxious when she does I went to check on them and Maggie Maggie's a dog lover and she fools with the dogs And I knew she'd gone to the kennel. I was at the house I left the house and went to my mom's For just a little while Tried to call her when I left texted her no response um When I got back to the house the house was obviously nobody was in there So I figured they're still up here fooling around paul's um Going to be getting set up to plant our sunflower seeds got sprayed and died and he was Refiguring to do to plant the sunflower seeds So I came back up here and drove up and saw and called Had Maggie and paul been arguing over anything. No What was their relationship like? Wonderful. Wonderful. How about yours and Maggie's? Wonderful I mean, I'm sure we had little things here and there, but we had a wonderful marriage wonderful relationship And yours and paul's relationship as good as it could be How was paul? 22 You know his date of birth I do. April 11th, 96 is his brother's April 14th, 99 is paul's And how about what's Maggie's full name margaret brand stetter murdoch And her date of birth sir September 15, 1968 Have y'all been having any problems out here? trespassers People breaking in none that I know of the only thing That what comes to my mind as my son paul was in a boat wreck uh a couple years ago and There's been a You know, he was charged with being arrested for being the driver There's been a lot of negative publicity about that and there's been a lot of people online just really vile stuff, but When paul's out and about I mean people routinely I don't think I know the full story. Um, so I don't think they give it To me, but I mean he's been punched and hit and just attacked a lot so You know, but I mean nothing like this This is a mistake y'all I tell you there's blood out there. I think might have been two guns. I don't know. He's gonna trust me on that one You gotta cut that out I shouldn't have said whack, but sorry. Yeah, what are you gonna do? All right chase. What do you got? There's some strange head movement here. There's shaking and knotting mixed together what you do not see in this culture And I think this is confused On his part of which behavior to display And you can confirm this confusion by the fact that he starts doing what I Call intent checking He's glancing repeatedly at the detective here in this instance to determine what kind of intent the detective has And the angle that he's taking with some of these questions and when he offers this The brother's birthday This is a miniature resume statement here And he's offering the details that suggest that he's a caring and good father. See, I know both of their birthdays And I think he's doing that Mostly unconsciously and when there's a question about the trespassers The response to the question is an insertion of ambiguity into the case Think about it If I asked you if strangers come into your house often Your answer would be no probably not So I would say this is maybe uh going on mark's uh scale. Maybe a dark medium medium light Or a weight flag. Did you say heavy flag? No, it was the sound of it, but I like it Okay, so this is maybe a volume nine or a 8.5 on the 10 scale flag and I don't know how big this property is which is one of the reasons here we can call this maybe a A medium flag here. There's an inability to identify a perpetrator. There is no Concern to find out who did this at all. He wants to keep the net Cast as wide as possible for here for what might have happened And he still won't say murder He skips over the murder every single possible time that it comes up every time here mark Uh, yeah, so I love this one where he where is his leg starts getting excited It starts going up and down a bit of the in and out as well there greg as well But it's it's even more joyous around this idea of introducing the boat story because I think You know, he's now laying down some some ideas of of you know potential Trouble that may lead to a perpetrator And I think he looks off to his side They're not only to check intent but to work out how's my story landing on this one is this one Is this one I should go a little bit further down that my you know, my son may well have an enemy Out there. Oh, we also this is off baseline as well. We also start to see His hand nearest to the driver to the to the officer Just becomes more active and I haven't seen his hand that active and that descriptive So I think he's becoming quite excited and buoyant around how this story might work out for him This is off baseline for me Scott, what you got on this one? All right, here's where he alludes to alludes to the murders being due to that boat accident That's cold when you're you're trying to blame something on something your son did That's that that says a lot about this guy's personality type And when he asked about the when he's asked about the relationship with his son His head shakes and it turned no and then starts turning like chase was saying to like a little bobblehead doll So there's a lot going on there at that point as well And that's probably true that the relationship is as as good as it could be You know As it could possibly be And that's because I don't they probably didn't get along very well So it was as good as it could possibly be because maybe that the child didn't like him Maybe the wife didn't like him because he says the same thing about her as well As good as it could possibly be And he's telling the truth. I think there it was as good as it could possibly be Apparently she's moved out and lives where'd you say she was greg living in the what? In their beach house. I read she was estranged in living in their beach house Yeah, didn't bring that up at all So there's a there's a lot going on there that he's not bringing up So I'm sure it was as good as it could possibly be greg. What do you got? Yeah, so I couldn't pay a person to illustrate baseline better than this guy does He's asked two questions about his relationship with his son and about his relationship with his wife And in both instances, he says wonderful But go back watch his body language when he says wonderful when he says wonderful about his son It's pretty straight body language. He says wonderful about his wife. Now. We know that they're estranged He breaks eye contact moves away to the side His face changes And he is entirely different when he's saying that then he's drawing away as he says it then he qualifies it I forget what he says exactly. Well, we had our moments and and and And then he gets back into those facts and deliberate language and the minute he gets back into those facts and deliberate language Then he's okay. He's answering factual questions. His baseline comes back When he gets down to the mechanics and he starts to tell that boat story His thighs start moving as mark said he starts to march in place with that one foot and his blink rate increases He does a left shoulder shrug again When he says nothing like this. Well, of course, nothing like this. Yeah, they hit him They said bad things to him and never came out and killed him So all this we see a pattern we see his baseline when he's comfortable We see a deviation and we get a chance to see two very different answers using the same english If if you think that body language is hokum watch that and tell me it's hokum Tell me you can't see something that's going on two different messages same words. It's all I got That's a tie Beautiful You're taking it so serious Had Maggie and paul been arguing over anything What was their relationship like wonderful wonderful How about yours and Maggie's wonderful I mean, I'm sure we had little things here and there, but we had a wonderful marriage wonderful relationship In yours and paul's relationship as good as it could be How was paul 22? You know his date of birth I do 26 is his brother's april 14th 90 nine is paul's And how about what's Maggie's full name margaret brand stutter murdoch and her date of birth sir september 15 1968 Have y'all been having any problems out here? trespassers People breaking in none that I know of the only thing That what comes to my mind is my son paul was in a boat wreck a couple years ago and there's been a You know, he was charged with being arrested for being the driver There's been a lot of negative publicity about that and there's been a lot of people online Just really vile stuff but When paul's out and about I mean people routinely I don't think I know the full story um, so I don't think they give it to me, but I mean He's been punched and hit and just attacked a lot so You know, but I mean nothing like this. Yeah So is there anybody That you can think of that we need to talk to tonight Is there a name that comes to mind? I mean, I can't tell you anybody that I'm overly suspicious of off the top of my head You know, um, I mean, this is such a stupid thing. I'm even embarrassed to say it But it just didn't Make any sense. I just hired a guy out here and He's really he wasn't cutting the mustard, but I hadn't told him this yet paul's been working with him a lot He killed the sunflower seeds in our dove field just recently, which is why paul was here doing this He told paul's story the other day about how when he was in high school He got in a fight with some black guys and fbi undercover team observed him fighting those guys And put him on an undercover team with three navy seals And that their job was to kill radical black panthers and they did that from myrtle beach to savannah Now I really don't think this guy You know Is probably the person but That's just so freaking Yeah, that's kind of farfetched But he was off today. Okay. He took his daddy to the doctor What's his name cb row Oh chase. What do you got? Right at the beginning of this clip You can see him try to adjust himself to look more comfortable And more relaxed the moment he does this you're going to see his body completely disagree with him It's going to move his hand back almost just without his consent to protect the groin and the femoral artery here And do you know what other emotion that would be coming up here that's missing is anger? Anger would be present here And he's got a huge problem identifying a perpetrator here who did this And he wants to keep the ambiguity as high as possible And I don't think there's any desire whatsoever for them to find for him to get them to find the person that did this And just pay close attention to what is not being said here And I think in my opinion you might hear a murderer Talking if you just listen to what's not being said and what's being ignored Greg Yeah, there's no anger. There's no rush. There's no urgency None of that as a matter of fact listen to the cadence of his storytelling slow down Slow down. This is What has it been 30 minutes of him sitting in a car? I would be looking for help He gives into you know, there's a new word a new phrase He's injecting that indicates he's comfortable and thinking and talking and that's his filler words starting to come out He doesn't he's not scram. It's not scrambled. It's not compressed. None of that's going on There's more concern in the cops brow and in the guy in the back seat and there isn't his this is his family There's that zygomatic muscle again that we said makes your face want to smile It sure looks like he's almost smiling when he's telling that story. Well, we know that earlier What the study said was if your frontalis muscle was down in in sadness and that that was probably an indicator He also starts to turtle chase after he goes back and he gets forced into that position Then he shrinks a bit and we say turtling your head and your torso shrink and make your target smaller This cadence is unlike anything else we've heard I think it's because he has already been rehearsing this story And he knows what he's gonna say this guy who told me this story and Well, if you if you're trying to figure out who to point somebody to you'd have a lot of details When I would just say hey, there's a guy who works for me. He's a little shady. Maybe you want to go check him If that were the case, I don't think that's the case And this is the first time the single first time he's used his right hand to illustrate Anything when he's talking about this guy It's been at his groin as I call it protecting the precious this entire time. That's another red flag. Scott. What do you got? all right Now he's trying to put the suspicion on somebody else He brings in this other guy that that worked for him that he just hired that isn't working out And again, we're not seeing like you were saying greg. We're not seeing things. We should be seeing in here We're not seeing the emotions someone Goes through as they Relive this experience of what just happened the most horrible things ever happened to him We don't see that Uncontrollable uncontrollable sobbing no wailing and crying nothing. We don't even see one tear And he has and I've been looking Nothing, we don't see he doesn't tear up. There's nothing in there. There's no tears at all We don't see that detachment. You'll see from when someone goes through something that bad Know why did this happen going back to that? And talk about how good they were. He's not talking about the things. Oh, oh, he loved this or she loved She talked about the dogs earlier, but he didn't really focus on that He would be talking about how the things that he thought of her and what they reminded What this reminded him of her she liked to do this and he loved to do that That's what he would talk about a lot, especially with this amount of time going by in an interview like this Not in years where that usually happens, especially when you're the first you've got him in the car and you're the first one's talking to him That's what you see in here. There's none of that. None of that none of that's happening He should be distraught. This guy's not distraught He sounds like he's talking about some things that like when we tell stories It sounds like he's talking about something happened last week. Guess what happened last week this and then going through it He just gives us a list Of things and never tears up doesn't use his his Clean X either nothing's looking the way it should look. I keep going back to that But that's I think that's the most important thing here. Nothing looks as it should look Up to now. All right, mark. What do you got? Uh, yeah, this is a beautiful scene. You can't even write this stuff It's it's genius The uh, the officer says look is there anybody that we should be looking at and while he says that he covers his mouth because he knows I think that he's looking at the perpetrator Right now. So he's even blocking himself to the to the lie of the question that he's asking there This guy comes up with an amazing story. It's it's a brilliant story I I don't know whether he's making it up completely on his on his own or this this guy who had took the day off Uh today, um Had actually told him this story, but it's a brilliant idea for a story whereby you've got a kid high school kid You know gets in a fight FBI cm They've got a whole bunch of navy seals And they go after the black panthers together all the way and I love this line. They did that from myrtle beach to savannah It's just a great. I can you know just picture in my head the navy seals in this high school kid Myrtle beach is fantastic. I just all that rough stuff happening in myrtle beach and then all the way down I think they have to go through Through charlotte or something like that or charlston or something. I don't know. I can't remember but yeah Yeah, but I'm just picturing the scene there as well the awful carnage The coast that's going on so I mean what a what an amazing amazing story And and the cop again like does a double take on it just is it What the hell's going on here? And and he does say look i'm embarrassed to say this i'm embarrassed to even put this idea Forward but then he goes Um, yeah, I felt that story was a bit off But he did take the day off today Like what a brilliant equation. It's a nutty story Obviously, it's utter nuts, but he did take the day off. So I think you should be looking at him Just brilliant brilliant brilliant logic. Love it. Let's have another You don't know about the fbi navy seal high school recruiter killer teams. No, no It's britch spores. Everybody everybody knows that story in the u.s. That's like a classic all the way from From little beach to say, uh, no because well last time was in metal beach. Nobody bought it up So, uh, they have to sell cookies. I think i've talked about there's something, you know, we don't talk about Oh, you're too british. Oh, that's i'm sorry. That was a girl scouts. Somebody sells cookies I was in it, but they kicked me out for crying Yeah, I wouldn't see you So is there anybody That you can think of that we need to talk to tonight Is there a name that comes to mind? I mean, I can't tell you anybody that i'm overly suspicious of Off the top of my head. Okay, you know, um, I mean, this is such a stupid thing. I'm even embarrassed to say it But it just didn't Make any sense. I just hired a guy out here and He's really he wasn't cutting the mustard, but I hadn't told him this yet. Paul's been working with him a lot He killed the sunflower seeds in our dove field just recently, which is why paul was here doing this He told paul a story the other day about how when he was in high school He got in a fight with some black guys And fbi undercover team observed him fighting those guys And put him on an undercover team with three navy seals And that their job was to kill radical black panthers and they did that from myrtle beach to savannah Now I really don't think this guy You know Is probably the person but That's just so freaking Yeah, that's kind of far-fetched weird, but he was off today. Okay. He took his daddy to the doctor What's his name cb row? Do y'all store any weapons out here? Um, we don't store them, but they're You know, they're frequently out here. I need to find out if there were any out here because I know there was a shotgun. There was a 12-gauge shotgun out here Uh I don't have to find out exactly when that was I think it got put up But I'm not positive. What did that shotgun look like? Uh, it was uh camouflage No I want to say it was a benelli or maybe a burrata I can't remember which brand it is But I don't think it was out here. Okay Recently But I'm not positive and the the shotgun that you had when Deputies pulled up. Where did that come come from? I went to the house and I got a gun probably overreacting but And was that when you pulled up and saw them? And no, I mean I came out and I mean I called 911 first Talked to them for a little while and then I told her Told her that I was That I was going to go to the house. Okay And that I would let the authorities know when they got here that I had a gun. Okay. All right mark. Where do you got? Yeah, just one thing which is which is he's really screwed himself now because now he's bringing up the murder weapon How easy was that? How easy was that? Gunny guns out here. Yeah, and he's mentioned a shotgun and I'm going to assume from what I heard before As to the condition of certainly one of the bodies that a shotgun was Was used and so, uh, yeah, he's already bringing up the murder weapon and what it might look at look like and Could be you know certain brand You know, I can't believe that he's He's not being clever throughout any of this So I don't know why I'm why I was even going to say there that he's been so clever and now he's being so dumb Because ultimately he's been so dumb throughout it. Yeah, that's all I got on that one. Greg. What you got? Yeah, and for those of you who don't know weapons a shotgun is harder to trace as a murder weapon because it doesn't rifle Whatever you're using you can have rifle slugs, but likely not what was used and those rifles on the other hand like that Blackout that they're using does create patterning on the bullet So if you have the weapon and the bullet you can figure out which weapon was used That's part of the reason why that might be an issue this cop is even looking a little frustrated Look at the at the brow and suddenly this guy talks like a lawyer. Do you have weapons? Do you store weapons there? Will not stored. Hmm. Well, you know the intent of the question, but you're answering it that way His hands have moved now to where he's got kind of a little gentle hug going on And he's chaffing when he talks about weapons when he starts to talk about weapons His blink rate rises and he starts to adapt as they're talking about This weapon specifically this shotgun you see his foot starting to tap and hop His hand is adapting meaning releasing nervous energy at his stomach And after he's asked specifically about did you have a shotgun watch that right leg? It is going crazy. His breathing becomes more rapid and pronounced And he even loses fluency as he's running out of words at what he told her his blink rates higher This is a hot spot this and back to why did you come here and a couple of others are real hot spots at this point? You got to pay attention when something jumps off the plate. This is a loud red flag mark to use yours. Chase. What do you got? Yeah, I've got a couple loud flags here, too There's more ambiguity being injected here about the shotgun Ambiguity about the weapon not certainty So and the desire to help the case means that you would specifically state the facts without ambiguity And then he's saying I got a gun. It was probably overreacting He's explaining motive again to perform an action Innocent people don't feel the need to stop the story and explain motive to every action that they take And grabbing a gun after finding family members that are murdered is not an overreaction in this culture That we're seeing here in this video I think he went back to get a different gun Uh, that was from the house so he could be holding one Uh when the police showed up in my opinion Definitely not a fact Scott All right, you guys covered everything I was going to cover keep it from being boring this move on Do y'all store any weapons out here? Um, we don't store them, but they're You know, they're frequently out here I need to find out if there were any out here because I know there was a shotgun. There was a 12-gauge shotgun out here Uh I don't have to find out exactly when that was I think it got put up But I'm not positive. What did that shotgun look like? Uh, it was uh camouflage No I want to say it was a Benelli or maybe a Beretta. I can't remember which brand it is I don't think it was out here. Okay recently But I'm not positive and the the shotgun that you had when deputies pulled up. Where did that come come from? I went to the house and I got a gun probably overreacting but And was that when you pulled up and saw them? And no, I mean I came out and I mean I called 911 first Talked to them for a little while and then I told her Told her that I was That I was going to go to the house. Okay, and that I would let the artist know when they got here that I had a gun Okay What did you do to do when you were in the office or no, I was home. I came home Paul and I messed around I I uh I was up at the house. I laid down took a nap on the couch probably I don't know 25 30 minutes. I got up. I called Maggie didn't get an answer and I left to go to my mom's She'd said she might ride with me, but she normally doesn't when I go over there um and I think I texted her And she's very good about answering the phone. So that was odd or calling me back So that was odd, but it wasn't that big a deal Now what time was that? What time was what that you sent her a text message? Um, I checked texted her 908 going to check on mb right back and then I texted her at 947 That must be when I started to come back. I think I called her before that But let me make sure Pretty sure that I called her 945 And then I tried paul and then no, I think that was riding I think that might have been riding over there 10-03 I mean my calls are right here. Yeah, so um Obviously, this is when this is when I At 10-06 Yes, sir Thank you Anybody else pull some gum You don't have any water, do you Danny? I saw it. I don't need it if you behind Danny's head is Taste of water. It's not a big deal. Yeah. I got trials going on right now Yes. Yep. Wow It's live on that law and crime network thing. Oh, really? Yeah and court tv and just about everywhere That's cool. A long crowd. Let's use their stuff. That's we should give him a shout out Yeah, our stuff below. Yep for sure All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm gonna keep this from pretty short He's adapting all the way up until he gets to the point They give him a freebie the minute he gets to where he gets to now go back to baseline Things that matter is the phone record. This is a guy who's smart enough. He's been in the business long enough He knows that's a matter of fact He's just going to run through it and chase. I'll use one of your favorites You can tell when he relax is because he goes to abdominal breathing. It's pronounced And they've let him now off the hook. His brain is relaxed. There's no emotion whatsoever I still what Is missing is a hey, can we just hurry can we get back to this instead of talking about all my phone records? They're a matter of record here. Boom. That's it. Scott. What do you got? All right I think we're seeing a very subtle change in his baseline up to to what we've seen so far His cadence has sped up. His voice tone is a little bit higher. He's the most relaxed. He's been so far Still no use of that Kleenex Still garden is growing still doing the same things we talked about the top His blink rate is is still low Everything we talked about the top is still going on at this point And I think it's because like you were saying, Greg, this is what he envisioned happening He's he's done now. He's gone through his list of stuff that he was supposed to talk about You know and while he begins it starts answering You see him lean back and that head goes back and rests up against the head rest back there He's he's relaxing, but I think at the same time he's sort of bracing himself Begins to back that head rest and his legs start moving back and forth And I think this indicates the stress of this of this specific situation because almost everything changes up to this point And again, they're they're very subtle But those are the things we're looking for and listening for and after that he asked him for gum and water You know, I think that's it's almost like a reward for himself. He's he's he's Crossed the finish line. He's reached his goal. He said everything He's supposed to that he's thought about saying on his list of things He's rehearsed his story we've heard him walk through and like you were saying chase too many details, man Way too many details for what for what had happened from as we look at this as a whole So I think he feels like he's crossed the finish line and he's like, yeah Instead of dunking water on himself. He's asking for water. He's chewing gum Which makes sense because I'm sure his his mouth got dry during all that during the nervous parts of it But I think he's relaxed now. So that's why he's his brain is letting him do things outside of that situation No sobbing no You know what happened no hand wringing nothing we should be seeing in here that We're seeing Here I guess you'd say mark. What do you got? Yeah, so lots of upward inflection paul and I messed around probably and and odd So I think he's unsure around the story He's trying to project at this point not quite sure if it's going to stick Then the female officer in the back says asked him something about time Then we get a down inflection. What time was what? So I think he now knows that he's now going to be nailed down to some times I think some of those times some of the phone information is working for him And I think some of it can't be reconciled if I remember rightly I think he he turns and opens the door and kind of spits out the door or maybe even vomits a bit I'm not not quite sure but there's some kind of opening of the door. I think And so I think there's a he can't reconcile some of the He sees some information that he can reconcile on there And there's some stuff that isn't going to work for him and there may be some panic there So either he has to lean out to block that and have a think about it Then comes back looks off to reconcile like how am I gonna how am I going to deal with this? And then the phone goes away Chase what do you got on this one? I agree with the guys you all covered a lot of it There's more ambiguity insertion here, but the way that he points to the call log directly and then mentions it That's interesting to me. I'm betting that we find out something is off about this call log the trial's going on right now So I don't think he's been on the stand yet. I'm willing to bet that we find something is Interesting about this call log and He calls it out as if it's an offering much like he did with the camouflage shotgun It's an offering. Well, there's something here that you can look at Those two things call log and shotgun were the two things that really stood out to where he kind of offered something up to assist the police That is a Heavy flag For me That everybody thinks I Yeah, Greg won that one stalled it Yeah, man, the hell is that? Yeah, I wouldn't see you What did you do today when you went to the office or nope? I was home. I came home Paul and I messed around I uh I was up at the house. I laid down took a nap on the couch probably I don't know 25 30 minutes I got up. I called Maggie didn't get an answer and I left to go to my mom's She had said she might ride with me, but she normally doesn't when I go over there um and I think I texted her And she's very good about answering the phone. So that was odd or calling me back So that was odd, but it wasn't that big a deal Now what time was that? What time was what that you sent her a text message Um, I checked texted her 908 going to check on mb right back and then I texted her at 947 That must be when I started to come back. I think I called her before that But let me make sure Pretty sure that I called her 945 And then I tried Paul and then No, I think that was right I think that might have been riding over there 10.03 I mean my calls are right here. Yeah, so um Obviously, this is when this is when I At 10.06 Yes, sir Anybody else pull some gum You don't have any water, do you Danny? I saw it. I don't need it if you behind Danny's head is um Taste of water. It's not a big deal. Yeah, I got this one's hard But when you first saw Paul you said you tried to flip him over Was he laying on his back or on his stomach? Just like he just like you so you weren't able to move him. Okay No, ma'am. Okay. And did he help Maggie a lot out here with the animals? He helped everybody with everything Okay, so it was kind of routine for him to be out here as well in the evening This place is his absolute passion. Okay I try to turn him and then I try to then I checked him and I I mean I think I already knew but I checked him And when you pulled first pulled into the property Did you come from this direction where all our police cars are or which way did you come in? I went to the house. Okay, and then I came from the house this way straight here. Yes, ma'am I mean where my vehicle was parked is probably is where it was. Okay. Well, no, maybe not exactly but it was Pretty close because I came back the same route. That's right because you went back to get your shotgun when I came back All right, Greg. What do you got? Yeah, just a few things again, no grief not in this forehead not in the sides of the mouth Look, there's lots of ways to show grief. You know, there's all kinds of ways that people show grief We associate that with grief muscle. There's a ton of stuff you can do with your face to show your sad that you're disappointed Something I mean, we know we can because we seem to use those parts of his face So he's not Botoxed out of existence. Although maybe that's part of it, but there's not even concern in his brow None none when she's talking about rolling over your dead child None none. This is within moments and I'll say you can be shocked people behave differently But very few people in life chase combat A guy you don't know you find dead like that that has an impact. It has an impact on people There's no renewed emotion. No help me. He could be talking about a car accident the way he's responding This and then I came out my tail light was busted out. It's about what I hear There's no shock at how horrific this is because if I did it I desensitize after I've seen it I probably didn't expect it. Look my opinion. This guy's just talked himself into a hole and and He thinks he's at the end of it because he goes back into Aussie mode He starts doing the yeah. Yeah. Yeah thing the head banging thing again I think he feels like he's at two posts at the end of this thing Just my opinion. Just what I see chase. What do you got? So this this Aussie thing you're talking about this head nodding at the end here is something I really want to talk about So first we're seeing a repetitive gesture second. We're seeing nodding third We're seeing gum chewing another repetitive gesture if we go off of what? They the godfather says Joe Navarro repetitive gestures are self soothing and He's experiencing a lot of discomfort during this period of of silence and I think unconsciously. He's nodding to both self soothe And to reassure himself that his story is correct and that there's some form of agreement here in the call with him But I had to call the big guns this morning And I wanted to get Joe Navarro's opinion on this so I sent this video to Joe this morning And this is from Joe So The head nodding is unusual I suppose one could argue that he is going over in his mind what he just said and it's almost as though He's in agreement or satisfied with what he just uttered But that's pure conjecture One of the things you can look at is the increase in the speed of chewing If you speed it up, you'll see what I mean Now that's not indicative of deception, but it is indicative of trying to relieve the stress that follows what he just said and I think It couldn't have been said better than uh than Joe said it and that's all I got Mark, what do you got? Yeah, lovely. Um Okay, I what I see is his hands leaving frame or almost leaving frame Which is a bigger gesture than we've normally normally seen him do Uh the cop next to him now. I think is is literally revolted by him. There's some Uh nausea going on uh with him when his hand comes over. He looks away. He shifts away um The shotgun comes up again uh I think Clearly that the journey to the house is important. The shotgun is important The the the nodding I would I would agree, you know, whether it means anything. I wouldn't agree with Joe That there's uh a self-soothe And a self-soothe around is my story working. Is this good for me? Is this gonna work out right for me? Because I think he's got an officer next to him who he can see is revolted. We see uh the perpetrator here or potential perpetrator Uh Uh show disgust when they look over and see the the officer revolted so they know it's going badly for them At this point Scott, what do you got on this one? All right When she asked him the way about his son the way his son's uh laying Again, like greg was saying no emotion He still hasn't teared up and still not using that Kleenex and then after the second questions Question there's so much space before anybody says anything That's when he starts talking and starts using or adding qualifiers and trying to tighten the story up trying to try to try to make It sound more believable and make it sound stronger Then when she asked him which way he came in his illustrators get huge This is the biggest he's used so far. The the other ones were okay But he hasn't used a lot of illustrators But they get really big maybe because he's thinking about her back there And that's why he's doing that to to illustrate for her But they've been extremely limited up to this point his his Voice volume is more relaxed. He gets quieter. He looks and sounds more relaxed Because I think he feels like everything's going well Because he he's under the impression those officers believe him And that guy sitting next to him that police officer sitting next to him. He starts pushing on us Well, let's go for a round with his lip. He's uncomfortable. So he knows this. Is it right? He knows something's not right about this, but he's playing at school He could possibly do it But his body his body language tells on him like Joe Navarro says you could have a poker face But you can't have a poker body And that's what we're seeing there He's doing all these little things that this guy if he if he'd know what to look for like you do now Then he would say whoops. I got to start adding some more qualifiers to my answer So I I think they know pretty much and and again if you'll if you'll keep an eye on that that The the woman in the back that that police officer in the back Watch her throughout this Now that I know this other guy isn't a copper. I'm under the impression that he isn't Boy, she just really starts going against this guy. She starts scooching away I want to look at her from the beginning then to the end to see how far away she's scooched away now that we know that I think she's uncomfortable With him not horribly uncomfortable But he keeps eyeing her notes and seeing what she's writing down But he probably believes this guy, you know, he probably believes alex So anyway, that's all I got be good. Yeah This one's hard, but when you first saw paul, you said you tried to flip him over Was he laying on his back or on his stomach? Just like he just like he is so you weren't able to move him. Okay Oh man, okay And did he help maggie a lot out here with the animals? He helped everybody with everything Okay, so it was kind of routine for him to be out here as well This place is his absolute passion. Okay I tried to turn him and then I tried and then I checked him and I I mean I think I already knew but I checked him And when you pulled first pulled into the property, did you come from this direction where all our police cars are? Or which way did you come in? I went to the house. Okay, and then I came from the house Straight here. Yes, ma'am. Okay I mean where my vehicle was parked is probably is where it was. Okay. Well, no, maybe not exactly, but it was Pretty close because I came back the same route. That's right because you went back to get your shotgun when I came back So up to this point mark. What do you think we've been seeing? Yeah, I've never seen anybody so cool in this situation I think I don't know where we are in the in the case right now on this in court But I I'm going to assume that something is going to come up around the journey to the house The shotgun is clearly important within this I'm I'm going to research a little bit more on this extraordinary situation of the high school's kid and the Navy Seals and the black panthers. It's exciting. Exciting story. Uh chase Well this so far is a video I know for a fact that I'm going to be using for training And I'm no expert on the case or forensics or any of the facts of the case But I'm a behavior expert And I think that we're going to see this play out in court much like it did here in the car with the officers It's going to be a very similar thing where the tells are going to be very similar The baseline is going to be very similar and I think the tells are going to repeat themselves in court I don't think he's been on the stand yet. I'm not I don't know much about the case Greg has given me most of my education about this case, which is very little Yeah, but it seems like maybe some stress in his life caused some sort of psychotic break Of some sort that made this happen, but I Don't know Greg Yeah, I don't know what's causing it. I don't know any of that. Let me tell you when we talk about baseline We're talking about normal at the moment You need only to watch these videos to see great examples the one if you go back where he says Wonderful two different ways is a great indicator of why body language matters But more importantly, if you listen to everything he says throughout this You'll hear him with a lot a lot a lot of detail about insignificant events And nothing when it matters when you ask him what he did today. Boom. He goes to the phone He's trying to make a record and prove what he's done However, if you ask him a question about what's on sale at the dollar general guarantee you he knows He'll give you all the details about that That is disturbing alone. So too much detail when it doesn't matter not enough when it does and massive loud flags red flags every flag you can imagine When it comes to why did you come out here today? Did you have a shotgun are there guns out here all those pertinent areas? We see massive shifts in body language. We see that butterfly. We see tapping feet. We see touching face We see shrinking you name it. We this is almost like We have a glossary and we're saying hey, would you do this for us? And he's a trained chimp Scott, what do you got? This is a great example so far of seeing of Not seeing things we're trying to show you what to look for But same time this is a great example of the things that we're not seeing that you should be seeing So in other words, you're looking for things you're not you're not seeing And so we're not seeing the emotion we should be seeing. We're not seeing the the Proper rocking we should be seeing with the hands Ringing and the crying and things that those things are missing. All right fellas. I think this is another good one And we'll see you next time I don't think so Chase, what do you got? Man, I'm beginning to flip You sound a little bit like him, Chase That's the accent. It sort of looked like him, too Ah, that's funny All right, we can wait just Say time I'll let it all this out Nobody will ever see this Man, those bars are really dense. It's like chewing a whole bag of gummy bears We'll wait. Yeah, take time for anyone watching. I just want you to make note of scott's condescending eyebrow raise Space line Go ahead you ready sure if you're ready. All right Right here in the beginning I'll take it out Today we're talking about alex murda, of course we've been we've done a couple of videos on him so far We're sort of going back a little bit and we're actually looking at the interrogation And in this thing, you're gonna see a lot of things That they're tough to see unless they're pointed out to you. This is the small stuff We're always talking about nothing huge, but these are things that will that are Almost mind-blowing things that you you may not have seen before so you may learn something great. Tell us about the videos We're gonna watch. Yeah, so this is a first for us as well because there's an attorney present here He doesn't bring up his voice very often But there is an attorney present during an interrogation which is powerful because now it changes the way the investigator has to approach him These videos are the first time he was asked to the police station And this is a sled agent talking to him south carolina lean law enforcement division And this is the first time he's confronted with evidence of that video about him being at the kennels That's an important part of why he was convicted. We found out from a juror And then we also find out that the guy he's calling Or he was trying to get through to is the guy that that video was sent to row row So it's an important part of this discussion But I also want you to know there's an attorney there and he's interfering at least once There's a lot of subtlety in this one. I think you'll enjoy it wait till the end. That's the cliffhanger There is a video on paul's phone Of um you and him on the phone that night And you were in khaki pants and a dress shirt You were playing with a tree I don't remember playing with a tree. Yeah, I guess there was a tree sapling or something that was It's falling over or bending over and you were trying to get it to stand back or stand up But I mean the question in that is when I met you that night You were in shorts and the t-shirt at what point and that evening did you change clothes? I'm not sure You know, it would have been No, it would have been What time of day was that I would have thought I already changed There's not a time Is he asking you now what time that picture was? Yes, sir. Okay. Go ahead. I'll step on it because there's so many posts Um, but I want to say it looks to be about dusk So that would then 7 30 o'clock I guess I changed when I got back to the house earlier when earlier when we spoke All right mark, what do you got? Yeah, really simple this one But look at the strong difference between murder and the interviewer that's more visible there The difference in how set the body language is so murder really closed down You're not going to see him move at all pretty much in this video and the interviewer Way more movement happening. So just that contrast for me is exciting because I go Let's see if that changes Let's see if the interviewer can get Murdoch to open up his body language or close down even more can one Effect the other we're gonna actually see that in the next video. So it's pretty quick Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so we'll go back to my Analysis of just focusing on what's missing here in a few of these videos What's missing omitted or concealed in every statement that you hear And here he's skipping over the clothing the detective has very clearly illustrated in this question And in an interrogation of innocent people when they don't know something there's something that you're going to hear from them They're going to say I don't know And they're going to be comfortable with not knowing the information And when you see guilty people in an interrogation, they're always more willing to negotiate details and nuance Because of their need to appear helpful But innocent people have no problem most of the time talking about remembering these details So we're going to focus on this and in the coming videos We're going to we're going to actually teach you about Interrogation and some of the secrets of how that stuff works looking forward to that scott All right from a body language perspective He's pretty much batting down the hatches. This is for the person who doesn't know much about body language This is one of those few times when you see crossed arms that it means what you think it means He's he's just completely locked down. He's got arms crossed. He's got his legs crossed from things tight He's not moving much. He's trying to stay in control because he's being put on the spot He doesn't know what these guys know yet doesn't know what the questions are going to be So he's got to be very careful. So he's paying attention to that All right, uh, greg what do you got? Yeah guys, you know, I'm kind of the priest of baselining. It's what matters most to me What you're going to see is something we taught guys resisting interrogation to never do and that's create an artificial posture You can't maintain and what he's doing is coming in all locked down because he thinks he can control his body language This guy who's questioning him it does a great job of soft pedaling some questions and hard pedaling others So that he fuels the pressure at times now if you there's a couple other things to note here This is a low pressure interrogation One of the few you're going to see that's this calm and this contained and very little pressure What we know is if I put high pressure on you and introduce facts they can become memories So he doesn't have that as a defense because nobody forced anything on him. That's not what's going on He looks terribly frightened. He's doing this because he's fishing and you watch him You'll be able to tell when he's looking for information they have and he's starting off When he is locked down this whole way where he doesn't move at all He's looking for a way to contain everything he's doing But then he adapts and rocks as they ask him about that video when we say adapting We mean he's releasing nervous energy for him We saw this on the stand But this is a very different him from on the stand because he is not yet discovered to be the guilty party or claimed But when they bring up the video and ask him what time he asked what time of the day was that He's fishing to see if they have the video that was taken of him We also know that he said I was going to do something with paul's phone at the site Wonder what he was going to do with paul's phone. If you knew this was an incriminating video He was trying to get away from it We can't tell that what we can tell is he is fishing He's locked. He almost looks like a photo through the entire thing And when you see that baseline deviation, you're going to know something has changed and by that This is why I always say you were sitting on the couch eating cheetos baseline is not what we're looking for We're looking for what you're advertising when you come in the door and how much deviation occurs. This is a great start Do you guys hear me swallow earlier how loud that was because I'm gonna go There is a video on paul's phone of um And you were in khaki pants and a dress shirt And you were playing with a tree I don't remember playing with a tree. Yeah, I guess there was a tree saffron or something that was Had fallen over or bending over and you were trying to get it to stand back stand up But I mean that the question in that is when I met you that night You were in shorts and a t-shirt at what point in that evening did you change clothes? I'm not sure You know, it would been What time of day was that I would have thought I already changed There's not a time Is he asking you now what time that picture was? Yes, sir. Okay. Go ahead. I'll step on it because there's so many posts Um, but I want to say it looks to be about dusk So that would have been 7 30 o'clock I guess I changed when I got back to the house Earlier when earlier when we spoke He was hurt in the background and I was prior to none I rogan gipson asked me if I was up there. He said he thought it was me Was it you? at At 9 o'clock. Yes, sir No, sir None of my times are right. Do you think it could be? I have no idea And rogan's been around your family for pretty much all his life Absolutely And he recognizes your voice and you have a distinct voice anybody else and has always somewhere to worse that he may have Um, that's interpretive No, no, sir He had asked me that so You know, maybe he told me that he thought I was up there Didn't that surprise him? Yes, sir Back to the kilns and return home from your mom's. All right, greg, what do you got? This is why we tell you not to come in with a wonky baseline because you see he's been locked down now watch that Thumb he's got a I think he has a tissue in that hand if you watch and he's just wearing the hell out of that tissue Scott your point he never uses it for tears But he sure is adapting on it. It's a tissue or something else Kind of like a kid has a wooby or something and they play with it all the time and they feel stressed All of us do something when he's asked the question about nine o'clock He distances gives himself a split second to answer by saying at nine o'clock Then you see the rocking and his foot pressing on the floor That's a lot when you came in locked down as tight as he was It's why you don't do that and why you can't hide something chase you always talk about politeness spikes There's definitely a deferential sir at no, it's not just no sir It's no sir and I cannot think of anyone else There's no protest in this guy at all at being accused of being and this is accusation by question We all do it in the interrogation room Is there any reason you call it bait questions and in regular intelligence interrogation We'll call it put on notice by question. There's all kinds of things you may call it But he is being accused by question and he's not defiant. He's not indignant. His chin is not out and there's no eye locked That makes me go. Hmm. Why is this guy doing this? Scott? What do you got? All right, so we see he's changed his leg positions and he's loosened up just a little bit That's because he's he's eased up that that first part I think is Obviously at the beginning so he's really really tense at this point or up to that point now He's sort of relaxed not relaxed, but he's letting go just a little bit So he's gone from guarding his stomach and and keeping that tight down to guarding his genitals, which he saw in the car as well So I think he's realized from a Body language perspective since the fight is on now and he knows it is He's got to look and sound like he's being honest So I think he's in a small way I think he's taken into consideration what he looks like just a little bit not much but just a little bit more so he's not as as squinched up as he was And like you said Greg a lot going on with that thumb and forefinger man looks like he's almost like playing a air banjo And his voice is quiet. There are no big pops of Of a voice volume and his tone doesn't jack up or anything. He's focused So he's he's he's going in fairly steady at this point And then after the question comes about the time of his whereabouts His head goes into that that bobble thing where he's saying where his head is yes and no and spinning around I think if we didn't understand what that was we'd see that more as confusion Because I think he's he's sorting out what he's going to say and being very careful to How he says it which is important to him because now he's got to remember everything he's saying because as far as we know Something may have changed in the story he prepared to this story now That's what it looks like because there's a whole lot of thinking going on in there Taking the stress he's he's experiencing from the interrogator in consideration. Yeah, but it looks like a little bit more than that to me Um I'll leave it there mark. What do you got? Yeah, so we're all in agreement that that he was Choosing to do this behavior. I think we're probably right to say he's choosing to do that because he wants to lock it down He wants to be in control and this is now 10 minutes later and he's changed And I think that is a result of the interview that's going on and the interviewer the interviewer Has managed to get some element of change out of him I reckon I could do this all day if I really really wanted to Unless there's something else Occupying my mind that I then forget to do this and start to do behaviors which are more Unconscious to me and so to your point scott I think this protection of the primary sexual characteristics, which we're now seeing is more unconscious behavior of him So if the interviewer has done anything here Yes, it's caused him to have to think about other elements that are going on most likely the story that he's telling And so we're getting more unconscious rather than conscious behavior out of him So another unconscious behavior we're seeing is that thumb move, which yes is partly adaption on the On the on the tissue or handkerchief that's there But also we're seeing it as a baton gesture as well a gesture that moves along to the rhythm of his speech Although it doesn't it doesn't quite move along exactly to the rhythm of his speech The baton gesture the baton the conducting is incongruent with the rhythm So I'm going to suggest you know go back take a look at how incongruent the rhythm of that thumb is Have a listen to what he's talking about and then think to yourself Is it incongruent because there's extra stress and pressure around this particular element that he's talking about Is what he's talking about right now Is this going to end up being absolutely consequential to the case? Is it important data? Is he unconsciously signaling how important this element of the story that he's most likely creating Is but look at that Really subtle changes ultimately that we can start to think about and think what is the consequence of this Further down the line chase. What do you got on this one? Yeah, you guys covered a lot. I'll just cover one more thing here when he says no, sir Not if my times are right I want you to pay attention to that the qualifier here is one of the biggest red flags You can possibly get as an interrogator and I'll tell you why here There is a known piece of information that any reasonable human being could answer from memory Were you down there? Were you present during this video? So when he makes the denial it's about time instead of memory And this is where an interrogator would be asking something like are you certain that your times are even correct or right? And then the temptation for most people to jump onto this deception is almost irresistible And instead I think it's best to accumulate these mistakes and red flags over a period of time Especially with people like this if you read the average interrogation training It's going to tell you that undetected lying is rewarding But in cases like this where there's lots of rehearsal and stuff You want to get a mountain of this kind of stuff? So in interrogations like this, especially when you're interrogating an attorney Confessions are extremely unlikely. So your job here is the interrogator instead is to develop these red flags And the moment you call someone out on one of those a wall starts building So you don't do that and you keep pouring water on these little red flag seeds So they become bigger red flags that the jury can watch during the replay It's all you got Same thing's true in intelligence. Exactly The island is you Rogan Gibson asked me if I was up there. He said he thought it was me Was it you At nine o'clock, yes No, sir None of my times are right Maybe you think it could be I have no idea And rogan's been around your family for pretty much all his life Absolutely And he recognizes your voice and you have a distinct voice You think of anybody else that has the voice somewhere in yours that he may have Um misinterpreted No, no, no, sir He had asked me that so And I mean he had told me I thought I was up there. Didn't that surprise him? Yes, sir. When you return back to the kilns When you return home from your mom's You say here like you're talking to somebody else or something else I say here here. Yes, sir The dispatcher is asking you If they're breathing and you said no And she asked if you did you see anyone else in the area and you said no She asked about guns near them and you said no And then you kind of stutter and start moving around and you say here I'm really saying that I guess I'll have to listen to it to Uh, you know, but I don't recall the dog being out. I'm just certain that There was not a dog without Um, you know, I mean there's other things people have told me about that none when one called that I don't remember Um, I was calling the dog Calling the dog talking to somebody else. I don't know that's what I'm asking Certainly that obviously was nobody else out there And certain that it was not a dog Remember saying anything about Buster would know Um It's all about threats I was asked about that later if I had information about what if Buster had information about threats that I said He would know All right chase. What do you got? so Right here, I think the detective makes a mistake In searching for the papers about the word here h e re So in interrogations, it's it's really tempting to want to do this like oh, I have the evidence right here But there's no need to illustrate that it's on paper somewhere But you can see that murdoch takes advantage of this to buy time So he's trying to find that when the question is clear concise and perfect He should not have to requalify himself. I think that takes away from his authority or his perceived authority in the interrogation room And I think second you're seeing another brilliant and giant red flag here And this is what I call diving for details And whether a dog is out or not of a cage or a kennel is beyond irrelevant But murdoch makes an effort to very carefully examine his memory to determine if a dog was out or not So when you see this level of detail about relevant details, those are probably green flags Their indicators are you're talking to someone who's probably innocent or being honest When you see the denial or the sorry that you see this detail Diving into nuance minutia relevant hollow details like this You're seeing something that should scare you pretty bad as an interrogator So if we stick with the what's missing technique, we're seeing loads of detail about stuff But the detail is missing around the victims the timelines the clothing Everything relevant to the case has no detail and everything irrelevant and meaningless He spends tons of time talking about and detailing the little answers around those Scott, what do you got? All right on the playback Let's pay really close attention mark brought up earlier of that detective's body language compared to murdoch's body language The the detectives is really fluid. It's big He's using big illustrators and and talking fairly slow and his tone stays even everything's good And then murdoch whose brain is on fire with trying to keep up with everything that's happening Watch watch him like Greg said earlier. He's it's almost like a picture or mannequin. He's just sitting there Nothing moves much at all. We still see a little bit of the the thumb happening But he's running scenarios in his head and what if it goes this way? What if it goes that way? What if it goes this way? Then the I thought the I saw the the play is looking for the for the The papers chase I saw that more as as Just trying to take up time between questions to help build that tension That's where I went, but I see what you're saying that makes sense But I I think in there we saw a great example after you finished asking the question How would sit there and look at him where he would pretend like he was doing something else and just let murdoch talk And talk then he'd stop and he'd add more stuff and he'd stop and that's a technique you use And you can use it at home on your kids You ask where have you been and they tell you did you go to so-and-so's place and you they say Yeah, I went to her house or his house and you just keep doing this Don't look like this but look normal And see what else they give you see if they'll keep talking see if they give a little bit more information They may they may not they may they may say why are you acting so weird? Most likely they won't do that because they're gonna be thinking. Whoops. They don't believe me. Whoops They don't believe me which goes back to The the when you when someone's talking to you and they break eye contact Most people are in the impression that person's lying to you Whereas we know now that the person who doesn't break eye contact with you That a huge percentage of that says that They are lying to you because their brain wants to keep an eye on you To make sure you believe them and if they if you don't believe them, they'll start adding qualifiers And this is a version of that But it's it's a more advanced version of that what the detective is doing. He's not looking for qualifiers He's just looking for this guy to spill more information. That's how it looks to me. Greg. What do you think? What do you got? Yeah, so a couple of things chase while I agree with you That is from the mechanical side and the pure fact an important part of how you go after that information You also have to remember I trained a lot of interiors in my life And it's all about this is an art form and it has to fit the person So that guy probably has got enough under his belt He feels comfortable doing it a certain way and I've had interrogators who had the I called it the bungling Colombo method that would rifle through things and just clean house others who can't do that And so I think it depends on the person and I would say that all of this stuff and we're all on the same page all this stuff is an art form Every one of us has our own art and style and the way we do it It also is theater for one. So you have to be believable to that guy If you know that guy if you've had exposure to him you may have a different approach So I you know, I want to know what the guy's thinking when he's doing this I'd love to talk to you if you're there and you're listening to us We'd love to talk to you about what you're thinking while you're interrogating murder another couple of interesting things For me that when he's doing that dog thing to me, that's a chaff and redirect He's looking for every opportunity he can because this guy and if you don't know what chaff and redirect is with us It's when I spew useless information for you to pick up and follow And we get people in the comments always saying this stuff doesn't work Well, if you're talking about absolutes and you touch your nose, yeah, it doesn't work We interrogate for living So it's one of many skill sets all the body language we're talking about the behavior is another layer The questioning all the theater stuff that he's doing all those are layers of this approach and what we pray on This guy's been sitting in a vacuum Deconflicting his story since he killed these people He has no idea what they know and now he's starting to find out and they're poking He's got a de-conflict on the fly Scott and chase you both brought it up He's starting to feel a little stressed because now he knows something he didn't know when he came in When they question him about this 911 call, I call this extra edit info Because when a person is writing and if you have been around long enough to choose email all the time You would edit your email and you'd have junk at the end you would delete that A lot of times when people are Deconflicting their story before they go on 911 You're gonna have words flowing through their head They've practiced and practiced and practiced and then that last word that dropped out there might make no sense whatsoever None And so anytime I hear that I go that's a push-pull word for me something I want to grab and pull Last I'll say and there's a bunch in here, but the last one I'll point out There's a poor camera angle But I think he does a regulator and we talk about a regulator being a way to control conversation Look at his head fish for information As to whether that guy believes him or not pay really close attention See if you agree with me If you don't if you think it's just some anomaly put that in the notes to do you think all this doesn't work Don't ever go into an interrogation without a lawyer because it does work Mark what do you got? Yeah, what I love about this is is both of the major players here are good enough More than good enough or experienced enough that we're able to look at the real subtleties that are going on here And kind of go well, I wonder if the tactic here is this or it's this I'm going to split the difference on the tactic here and it's to do with the rhythm I think the initial element there of looking for that piece of data Is is real because because I think he's actually searching for the piece of data And and he doesn't quite know where it is and I and I picked that up from how fast that and Indirect that rhythm is Then he slows it down because I think he goes You know what as I'm looking for this. I may as well play it Now my bias would be I would play it even bigger and even longer But you know, that's my exhibitionism there You know, how much can I turn up the heat even more by making this last a lot lot longer on this But you know, everybody's got their own idea their own style. They're they're going to do what they're going to do in this situation Regardless of what the reality is I think this interrogation this questioning has him now locked in a new position He's now locked in this new what was an unconscious position Maybe he's locked unconsciously. Maybe he's locked himself now consciously and gone. Okay Stay with this stay covered up in this area because once again He's he's locked down and he's using I don't know I don't remember and he's not moving and he's not responding in any big way So isn't that wonderful started off locked down interrogator managed to Open him up really by getting him to change position get him on the back foot a little bit and now he's locked himself down Uh again, so where's this going to go next? I'm interested to find out there. That's all I got on that one The island is you at one point in the novel one call You say here like you're talking to somebody else or something else I say here here. Yes sir So the dispatcher is asking you If they're breathing and you said no And she asked if you did you see anyone else in the area and you said no She asked about guns near them and you said no And then you kind of stutter and start moving around and you say here I'm really saying that I guess I have to listen to it to Uh, you know, but I don't recall the dog being out. I'm certain that There was not a dog out Um, I mean there's other things people have told me about that none when one called that I don't remember um Here like I was calling the dog Calling the dog talking to somebody else. I don't know that's why I'm asking And certainly that obviously was nobody else out there And Certain that there was not a dog remember saying anything about buster would know um So I was asked about that later if I had information about or the buster had information about threats that I said He would know What was the turkey loot? What was the bookshop? I don't understand that The shotgun that you had with you that night There was a bird shot And a bug shot when Jeff went back the next day Um, I'm not sure which attorney it was pointed out that there had been a shotgun laying on the pool table That he had put away ammunition that was with that and it was a bug shot and a bird shot And then the shotgun that we took um for potential comparison It was also looted with a bird shot and a bug shot. So I have all of these consistent loots Along with what's that In the feed room. I call it the feed room and the kennels. Is that what you call it? Fucking good enough. Okay. I just want if I say feed room I just want you to know what I'm talking about the night. I grabbed the shelves that I could get my hands on I don't you know, I had no idea exactly what I had Okay Also, when we talked, um, I asked you if it was going to keep guns down at guns And you said you have to check have you been able to check to see what was missing from your collection? I have Yes, I know what's missing from What I believe is missing from from our guns. Okay, and what it does there's there's three guns That I think are missing And what kind of guns are those it would be a banelli shotgun browning shotgun and a pump shotgun The banelli and the browning and they pump her odds The banelli and the browning are automatic and the pump shotgun. What brand is that? I believe it's a rammington, but I'm not positive Well, they all got a like standard brown black all black or um the the browning is camera and the pump is camera All right, greg. What do you got? Yeah, so let's start off chase back to your point about what his style is because he has a very specific style And what he's doing is he's walking it very slowly and going at him If you want to know here's the one that I think he could have just torn him a new one right here But he didn't he chooses to hold off the guy says I when that night when I picked up ammunition to load the shotgun I don't have any idea what I picked up Well, do you find it a random coincidence that this guy had an empty shotgun in his house? The rest of them weren't clearly But he went and got exactly the same ammo and loaded it that these people were killed with hold on Now you could that could right there be enough of a rift if there's not an attorney there For us to have our feet squarely under us and go at him hard an interrogation often to chase this point We'll go they'll wait until they get this big blunder They'll let one pass they'll get this big blunder and then they'll tear the scab off in his case. He doesn't He's a little bit more meticulous which makes me think his style and we'd love to talk to you again I forget his I think it's davis This is the last name But if you know and I'm wrong and you know this guy, please ask him to come talk to us We'd love to talk to him Listen to his style now I mark you started off by talking about the difference in the two of them everybody in the room's moving along normally Scratching milling. He's locked down tight again. Now. He's back to his Yeah, resistance to interrogation Idea it that's not how it really works by any what any means guys But two of us who were resistance trained would tell you there's no way I would ever go in lockdown It's a dumb way to move This I love the way the agent goes in with a slow delivery at the reason I am asking Is and he's moving look when you get a guy close to confession You always slow that language down because you bring them down a notch you lower your voice and it brings them down And he does something masterful here masterful whether he did it intentionally or not I love it. He asked a question that is non pertinent And non pertinent questions are the most lethal questions in interrogation. The reason is because the guy has no reason to lie So what is he going to do? He's going to do what's normal and he does he raises that hand to illustrate Now we know how he normally responds to an easy question He's happy to answer that because he feels like he's being helpful, which is what most bad guys do But his feet and thumb are moving and he here he goes again that night when he's talking about grabbing shells You could say this is a missed opportunity I think it's a great opportunity for him to go out the guy then he squeezes that arm As he slowly answers the description of shotgun. Why not? It was a camouflage shotgun 12 gauge remington Hmm because something's up Chase, what do you got? Yeah, uh, so one thing in interrogations and we're going to talk about some of the good some of the bad here And any of the criticisms that we offer about the interrogation or the techniques are not on the officer Uh, the training is lacking in a lot of departments So we're not making any judgments about the officer there in particular, but One thing that's that's true about interrogations the more people that are in the room the less likely you are to get a confession period And that's proven time and time again But when he's talking about the missing guns There's a complete loss of fluency where he's having trouble putting sentences together. There's hedging and qualifying Um Saying between it's missing or I believe was missing and then he says our guns the big emphasis on our guns Wondering what that means the emphasis is extremely unusual And his characteristic nodding As a hint if you see this he is lying So that is his personal tell uh like I showed you or all of us showed you in the squad car video before the Trial even started so that you could look for it in the trial As the footage came out and I think finally in this clip he is locked on So when he's asked these detailed questions, he doesn't look away When you ask a normal person to recall some details Their eyes will move to recall what gun it was what it looked like in their head sometimes will move with their eyes So they'll they'll do this normally and this is this head and eye lock is indicative of deception When it's piled up with this giant cluster of all these other indicators which greg you've covered so many of And liars are more likely to do this when they lie because they're subconsciously trying to look more factual and believable So honest people need to move their eyes and head to recall details And one more thing he does here and you'll hear this in his voice He transitions into what sounds like a fifth grader reading a paper in front of a class And this is Two factored One he's unknowingly doing this to sound more clear and believable, but he's not doing it consciously his brain's doing this behind the scenes Two he's doing this because he's trying to look honest by speaking in a slowed pace And in my interrogation courses we call this a shift to clinical language It's actually the sister or very closely related to Another thing we talk about called pronoun absence or when the pronouns disappear from a person's language or answers mark Yeah, so now I believe we have some self soothing on the elbow here Now why is that important because you know why might might it be more important than say Some self soothing on the arm or on the forearm was I say, you know as much as I possibly can This is a vulnerable area on the body. The knuckles are vulnerable. The wrist is vulnerable This uh elbow area is vulnerable if those areas get damaged you lose the use of way more of your Of your arm if this gets damaged here. Well, you still got your shoulder. You still got the elbow. You still got the wrist So You know the more vulnerable a joint is yeah chase when you you came down in virginia You and I were having a glass of wine and you taught me about this and you were telling me about it And I was internally processing going well. Yeah, I guess that makes sense And while I was like trying to see oh, is that true or not you grabbed my elbow And I had a visceral response to it and it was so different. So it is it I have told this to so many people Since you taught me this so Sorry, I just wanted to put that in there. Right. It's so true. Right. Yeah Yeah, I thought you I thought you're getting the the shits and giggles and I was getting ready to go And that's when you had that smile on your face about what about this must be good. Sorry go ahead Yeah, if you really want to annoy somebody Grab their elbow take control of their elbow take take control of their wrist Just take their finger and just take a joint of it and mess around with the joint. It'll super super annoy them So look, that's why this is of interest more than this or this Because it's way more protectionist I would say Now here's one last thing that's interesting me. We've got this kind of almost rocking back and forth But certainly the head moving back and forth. Now, what is that about here's what I'm going to tell you I don't know for sure what that's about But I'm going to give you all the options I can come up with very quickly in my mind and it won't be all the options out there And what you need to do as somebody who's interested in non-verbal communication And looking at situations and going what is the truth of this is you've got to go well What if it's this or what if it's that or maybe it's this or maybe it's that and get those clusters together Could be compliance could be a yes and he's just not he's not saying yes to everything He's just trying to show compliance. It could be self soothing could be soothing himself It could be a barrier gesture. It could be him trying to you know Take away everything out there and just moving his body in order that no other information can come in almost a kind of a trance-like state in fact Greg Scott you probably I think that's probably what you call the trancer state because look, uh, if you go Um, if you go and see dervishes, for example, or you go to the wailing wall go to the wailing wall And see the movement in front of the wailing wall. It's a trance state movement So you literally can can change the way your mind is functioning by simply moving your head Up and down it's like twirling round and round and round and round and round We'll change the state of your mind the whirling dervishes do that try it out try it out But um, but make sure that all the furniture is moved apart because you'll probably fall over Greg what's your thought mark one last thing to add to that this guy had a serious opiate addiction And neural pathways 10 000 strikes they get to be a habit who knows how many times he rocked So for sure I've got I've got down here drug use it can come with drug use I used to work with a lot of heroin addicts myself and you would see it You would see a lot depending on on what state they were in had they used recently had they not used recently enough It could be stimming so could be neuro divergent or diverse or neuro atypical Or a whole bunch of other things do I know which one it is? Well, I can make my guess and then I can test my guess as we go along But the important thing is is it's a guess You're making your best guess now on all the information you have to be intelligent and then you're Testing that guess to get closer to the truth and you might well get there But you don't do it with this always equals That it's all possibility. It's all a state of of maybe and you might go Well mark that just means you you know Nothing you have no absolutes and it's not having the absolutes that makes you way more intelligent And gets you to the truth quicker. I would say Who we got left on this so Scott? Yeah All right, okay. I've left with nothing So I I'll go with the an overview still locked down that I think the constant bottom back and forth Obviously, that's indicative of stress And I think he's he's trying to agree with everything at the same time While he's trying to stay locked down at the same time he's blown off that built up stress intention So I think that's several things at the same time mark. I agree with that And he's getting these little bits and pieces of of information from the detective because he's he's slowed down He's talking slow. He's not giving him very much It looks like he's getting ready to paint this big picture of here's what's going on But he doesn't give him much at all and that's driving him nuts because he's usually the guy in charge He's the guy that tells you what to do. He's the boss of everything apparently so far So this is driving him Bonkers as he's trying to get through this Um, and that's why he's locked down so hard as well because he I'm sure he wants to scream because this guy's not Giving him information quick enough and and then again, and the only movement outside that again is that thumb And obviously we talked about being an adapter because of the timing he's using and all that all right, so I'll leave it there since Most everything's gone already The eye witness is you The reason I'm asking about that The shot shells that we recovered that night. One was a turkey load One was a buck shot. I understood that The shotgun that you had with you that night There was a bird shot and a buck shot When Jeff went back the next day Um, I'm not sure which attorney everyone was pointed out that there had been a shotgun laying on the pool table that he had put away In pointing out that ammunition that was with that and it was a buck shot and a bird shot And then the shotgun that we took um for potential comparison It was also loaded with a bird shot and a buck shot. So I have all of these consistent loads Along with what's that in the feed room. I call it the feed room and again, is that what you call it? That's that's something Okay, I just want if I say theater and I just want you to know what I'm talking about the note I grabbed the shelves that I could get my hands on Um, I don't you know, I had no idea exactly what I had. Okay Also, when we talked, um, I asked you if it was going to keep guns down in the guns And you said you had to check have you been able to Check to see what was missing from your collection I have Yes, I know what's missing from What I believe is missing from from our guns. Okay. And what are those? There's there's three guns That I think are missing And what kind of guns are those gonna be a banally Shotgun a browning shotgun And a pump shotgun The banally and the browning and they pump her on us The banally and the browning are automatic and the pump shotgun. What brand is that? I believe it's a rammington, but I'm not positive Well, they are they like standard brown black all black or The Is black the browning Is camo and the Pump is camo And that's you know, we we've talked about the shot shells So the cartridge casings were 300 black out cartridge casings that were found by mac There were also cartridge casings found by your house by the side door to the gun room And that the shooting shooting right asking about shell casings that were found by mac That's mac. He's about it. Greg. The cartridge casings found by mac. Yes Had he ever been confronted with this information prior to right now that you know Not that i'm aware. Okay. I believe he was but um not by me. I don't think There were also cartridge casings found by your house by the side door to the gun room And at the shoot shoot range And the ones by the house And some of the ones found at the shoot range Are confirmed matches to the ones found by mac Okay so Which gets another concern. I've got the same load as the shot shells In multiple guns And 300 black out that match the ones found on your property So you now believe that does gun that calls guns where he is? Yes Okay, I understand that somebody had seen that gun recently, but You know and I'd ask a buster about it. Um has been gone since back before christmas Nolan Nolan recalls Paul's first 300 going missing around halloween At a party at pantom halloween of 2020 When did y'all know that because no no no no it was years. It was it was Chase what he got I like the level of composure here in the interrogator. So it's not this confrontational thing I have done training in police departments. I will not say which ones, but I've done training in police departments where they just they didn't have any training So they just did what they saw on tv and i'm not joking That's they don't have training for the department. So they just copied this aggressive behavior But let's talk about what's missing here. What's missing is a any denial Even remotely mentioning that these guns were involved in the crime and i'm talking about murdoch here A single mention of the guns that were used in the crime or an acknowledgement that it looks bad Or the biggest one of all some kind or some hint of confidence So as his body is in full blocking He's turtling protecting the brachial arteries under the arm protecting the groin and femoral arteries There's abdominal protection there And if there's one thing if you go on youtube and type in a compilation of people getting the crap scared out of them Like somebody pops out of a trash can and all that you'll see the same reaction in every person All the arteries start getting protected the shoulders come up and we're just kind of seeing that here in permanent form And just for me lastly At the end of his statements, you'll hear a vocal noise. That's not language at all just kind of a Coming out of his mouth And this is maybe a vocal exhaust. It's letting off stress But secondary to this I think it's a desire to build some confidence to reassure himself that he is in charge Or that he can speak up when he wants to down a lot of time to get into that but Too many people in the room The less likely you are to get a confession Pins and paper having a pin and paper open and on the table taking notes while a person is talking Reduces the likelihood of confession having a gun on your belt They're having multiple people in the room with guns make confessions less likely the arresting or involved officer Conducting the interview makes it exponentially less likely for confession Uh, but they did do well by not having on a uniform because the uniform also reduces likelihood of confession So great. What do you got? Yeah, two things number one indicator that he's not gonna confess though to me chase He's getting attorney sitting there who'd say shut up. You're done with that right? Yeah, that's exactly But you're right. Look, I Dr. Phil says it best. Nobody confesses in a crowd and he's dead on it's That's an intimate thing when you're talking somebody. Let me tell you two things that in my all my years of interrogating I never I realized the person who is guilty Is capable of acting like they're innocent but people who are innocent have a hard time acting like they're guilty And by that I mean if I'm innocent and you accuse me some I'll come up in my chair and come at you I may say something at least but I'm going to be indignant Often the guy who isn't is the most helpful little bastard you're ever going to meet in your life And he's going to go to front of the mouth talking y'all always hear me say that and this guy does it He goes, okay, and he does fading facts and does that kind of front of the mouth talking you hear it All the time when people are trying to be Solicit us and try to get information at you I'll leave that part there and I'm just going to run down a list of things I see here and let you decide what it means to you his respiration is up Watch his chest his free hand is adapting meaning this hand that's off to the side is adapting The hand that's here is squeezing the hell out of the arm He's doing his Ozzy Osbourne move as we talked about before He starts to chaff and redirect and when he does you see his feet dance and his cadence slow And then he hits a bunch of ums we say no single indicator of deception But a damn pile of deception like that seeing a whole lot of indicators means something to me mark. What do you got? Yeah, well actually that front of the mouth talking greg. I'm worried that you're trying to steal my Penelope pit stop impression there It's getting Getting awfully close. I'm a little bit I'm a little bit worried and a little bit nervous about about my property on that one Now look Well, I really love about this because I agree with you chase that that the interviewer here Is is doing a really subtle calm interview compared to You know the classic tv idea of an interrogation It's it's nothing like you'd expect if you've seen all those tv Interviews and at the same time he has got bigger with his gestures So that points to me scott to what you were saying I think he's getting a little impatient to maybe a little excited about this I think he can see somebody who's locked themselves down and is giving a few indicators of the stress that he's under And he's seeing the the impression that his questions have and so there's going to be an edge of excitement there That I think we're seeing in the gestures and at the same time All of us want things to move along a lot quicker like all of us want a result And I think even though he's got to know that he's there with a lawyer And he's not going to get any confession and there's other people in there and and you know, it's it's unlikely He's got you know, you'd want it all the same wouldn't you you'd want that moment And I think that's what we're seeing in those big gestures Is a level of wanting to move this along and the excitement of it So so, you know impatience and excitement. I see there in the interviewer now the subject here We see some foot stamps. We see it because we see the the knee move and and very directly down down down I want you to go back and have a listen to what he was talking about when he's doing those suppressive gestures With his foot and then think around the case and think was that information Was what's being talked about around there? Did it become pertinent to the case? Did it was it? Was it information that anybody who has perpetrated the crime would want Suppressed, but they're not able to say shut up be quiet. Don't talk about that. I don't want to answer questions on that I don't want that information, but unconsciously he's stamping down on that. I think I think that might be the case Uh, who've we got left scott me? Yeah, you guys dang covered everything, but I agree with you chase I I when you when you go train and then you run into somebody Let's say you go to a different town and then you get pulled over and the Uftaly soft says, we don't know you from you say, well, I do this this and oh wait No, you train you trained us in interrogation And then you say well, how's everybody doing and they always have that one guy that didn't listen You know, he only went through things one time You know or he's using his read technique the wrong way and they'll say this was you know On those guys get on my nerves the ones that don't pay attention and really mess things up for somebody that So I I know where you're coming from that that really gets on my last nerve I won't get I get worked up if I get it into that and before we get finished with this Let me just add this in here and this is about greg greg. Would you mind? Doing that frontal mouth voice and just say the abc's in it. Yes, please. Sure. Yeah later Let's hear it now I don't know if I can a D e f g there you go. That's good enough Okay, let's see. Let's hear it man. Do the alphabet. I'm done. I did it Dude I know where you live. Remember you got two. I know that would have been so good Anyway, but now he's got that Kleenex out and he's goofing around with that the whole time And it's and his his adapting thing is really really working up a little bit here And I'm sure he's been using it to wipe his fake tears and his You know his fake runny nose and all that stuff Like we saw on that initial car video is just there. I think Marcus the one brought that up And then there's there's such little head movement Again, he looks almost like a mannequin And it's very odd to see something like that out in the wild or see something normal So you automatically like greg always goes back to you. This is just it's weird because he's just frozen and talking You don't see that very often from someone who is a Is a normal as far as the brain goes you don't see that very often But he but he looks almost like a mannequin. It's that that's I think you guys have covered everything I'm going for it here. I'm trying to find something to go over, but I got nothing So I could do it, but it'd be boring. So And and that's you know, we we've talked about the shot shells So the cartridge casings were thrown out of black out cartridge casings that were found by mac There were also cartridge casings found by your house I decided to work to the gun room And You're now asking about shell casings that were found by mac this man. He's body crack The show the cartridge casings found by make it. Yes Had he ever been confronted with this information prior to right now that you know Not that I'm aware. Okay. I believe he was but um not by me. I don't think The mac There were also cartridges casings found by your house by the side door to the gun room And at the shoot shoot range In the ones by the house and some of the ones found at the shoot range Are confirmed matches to the ones found by mac So Which gives another concern. I've got the same load as the shot shells In multiple guns And 300 blackout that match like the ones found in your property. So you now believe Does gun pause guns where he is? Yes. Okay And I understand somebody had seen that gun recently, but you know, and I'd ask a buster about it. Um I I believe that that gun has been gone since back before christmas um Nolan No one recalls Paul's first 300 going missing around halloween At a party at hampton halloween of 2020 When did y'all know that because no no no it was years. It was it was whatever Another part in the novel one call You made the comment I should have known and the questioning that's around it. Um You know dispatchers asking is anybody else supposed to be at the house? Um, and you said no ma'am. Please hurry And she says we're getting somebody out there to you and your next comment was I should have known What do you reference in that statement? I don't remember saying that but I guess, you know, all the threats and You know, and I had been convinced that this was something to do with both rec and You know All of that Never get to a heated argument and get physical One time, I mean A little bit where he wouldn't listen to me Did you ever get physical with him? No, sir I'm not mad at you to Paul get physical with Maggie. No, she probably wanted to at times The one time Paul Did that he had had too much to drink um In the very isolated incident Where was that was that mozelle or that was that uh mozelle? You know, it was pretty recent. No, sir. It had been A while turn polo And his cell phone popped out. You're staying with something like I thought about doing something But then I'll put it back down And that was the interview Our first interview But what were your intentions with the phone? I don't know. I mean it When I when I went up to him and The phone came out and intentions of doing anything with the phone mark. What do you got? Yeah, so um, what's interesting now is this interview we're seeing a lot of uh adapting There a lot of trying to manage I believe You know his own stress around this and this is tricky for anybody anybody I mean just put yourself in a position where you are interviewing somebody else for a job So it's not even it's not even an interrogation like this You're interviewing somebody for a job And you want to do a really good job because you want to make sure that you get the right person For it you're going to be under stress and the interviewer here is under stress as well And here's where we're seeing this person Manage their own stress at this time. I think managing it very very well But but it's more marked at this point than a lot of the body language from the subject Though there is some good stuff from the subject in just in just one moment Now also we see him go and adapt at the papers as well. He moves around the papers For no real reason. I don't think he's doing it for dramatic effect He's just trying to find something to do to deal with his stress around this So, you know, the question is is like, you know, how do you manage your stress in these situations? Because everybody feels it and everybody needs not only training in how to get information out of people But training in how to manage yourself In that interview so that you don't, you know, corrupt it with your own problems in there Okay, here's what's happening in the subject when I went up to him There's then a change in that baseline that he's now established He's locked into and he goes to protect his knee and barriers again The knee really important joint on the body if the knee gets damaged, you're in big trouble I dislocated my knee about six seven eight months ago or something like that And it's hard to walk like it's hard to walk when you so you don't want that That that joint, you know, damaged in any way so under stress and pressure The knee is an area we also see people will go down and touch the ankle Prince Harry does that He'll go down and touch his ankle zero reason to do it. There's nothing wrong with his foot He's the foot's not going to disappear anywhere But he kind of thinks you can't it's a habit that he's got into You won't be able to see me adapting on my ankle again tricky joint He then goes on to say I didn't have any intention of doing anything with the phone So here's what I'd say because he protects the knee He did have some intention of doing something with that phone Yeah, I'm gonna gamble that that is probably Inaccurate as to what he's saying there Scott, what do you got on this one? I I think the stress with the detective is from it's not from It's not stress. It's more of a thing where he's thinking about all the things he's got all the He's looking at all the information he's got. He's putting everything in order That's what looks like to me when I'm thinking always do that So I put my hands up around my mouth and people complain about it and all that when they when I do it on here But I think that's what this guy's doing. He's thinking about all the stuff He's got he's like and it's more of a positive thing than than a stress reliever from being something negative built up bad stress That's a cognitive load. Yeah cognitive load when I say stress. I'm not saying negative or positive. Just okay No, that you didn't that you don't necessarily need Right. Yeah, right. Yeah, because that that's I've been in that spot before and so we all have so that's the way That's the way it looks like to me anyway, but again the bobbin's going strong here And he's laser focused on that interrogator Because he didn't put much thought into the 911 call. He didn't think it would be dissected He didn't think it'd be brought out phrase by phrase word by word He he remembers pretty much the story he's talking about but he doesn't remember all the little tiny details And those that he does remember he'd be he's sure to lean into him Like when he talks about and he throws his kid under the bus again and blames this whole thing on his child that he killed You know that this is a dirty guy here. This is this is this is not this is a low I have that's using Language we can use on here when he's asking if he's been been Excuse me violent with paul That's when we see the most movement in that right hand. That's when it starts to go in the most. He's remembering that violent situation and That's that's the way he that's the way he's trying to because I'm sure it was pretty violent that kid came at him You know what it wasn't good for the kid By the time it was over because that bird I was a big boy and this is I think this is good because we see him trying to stay composed. He's trying to stay under control He tries hard to look Natural so it doesn't look odd, but it does look odd because it's not natural We see him trying to hold hold those things back with all his adapters and everything he's doing trying to stay straight and and All a bunched up like that Um, and it's so his confidence that he's trying to show really doesn't come through that way It just looks and sounds odd Um, all right chase. What do you got? So let's just examine a little bit here There's no mention of detail about the crime that occurred like ever There's not mention of murder or being shot or someone killing someone or guns not one Uh desire to find out who did this Not one ounce of anger not one ounce of guilt which normal people tend to have just under the under the Assumption they could have maybe prevented something from happening if I would have only done x then y wouldn't have happened And there's no mention of how the bodies looked But the detail and the very specific carefully executed phone description Uh is just astonishing here to me and this is an example of a detail valley and a detail spike and it suggests extreme deception to me And that there's something with this phone that is key to the case So if this has not gone to trial yet, I would say that phone holds Something there and when he says you ever get physical with him when he's talking about paul He's saying no sir. There's a quick head shake and then he goes back to nodding and maggie is just no It's more direct more confident and there's a more firm head shake so these are two Kind of just apart from each other and I'll let you determine whatever that means and in interrogations It is your job to help somebody soften the severity of the case to help them carefully just come to the conclusion that they can confess And I would say no matter what your job is to go whether there's an attorney in there or not It doesn't change the desired outcome So there's a quote from sun zoo that I have on the first page of all my interrogation manuals that when I train Students and police and this is build your opponent a golden bridge on which to retreat So when your suspect is as bad a liar as this you'll have actually more work to do But they'll the cool thing is they're definitely going to show you the blueprint of what that bridge is supposed to look like What do they need to hear And interrogators essentially have seven core jobs and this is me just going through the interrogation training here for you We have to minimize Socialize project justify Rationalize emphasize the truth and increase anxiety associated with deception Those are the main jobs of an interrogator And we're not seeing a whole lot of that here. Maybe we will later on, but I wish we had seen a little bit more Uh, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, in non-course of interrogation There's a golden tool that you use and it's called futility and only good interrogators are any good with it Everything we do everything chase just said all of that is about one thing. It's about getting that person to the point They have a realization They can't resist you and the hardest thing for a person to get is that I mean my days of teaching interrogation They would stand up and sound like Picard from Star Trek saying Resistance is futile and you'd fire them you put them right out of the interrogation room and say no come back This is about subtlety of message. It's about getting the person to realize that you have more Ammunition than they do and they're going to lose the war. That's really at the end of the day what we do There are lots of ways some are some are coercive in some parts of the world Some are non-coursive my style is non-corsive some like reed has another set of tools All of these work on that one thing that a person gets to a point They realize there's no reason to resist because they're not going to win what we see here Mark, I love that you're talking about the investigator because I think what we're seeing here is some masterful interrogation That you only have to be able to know what he's doing to figure out why the stress is there He has a job and that job is to hide the key crux of the matter and he brings up a crux question in here What were you going to do with that phone? That's why he's here He wants to know because this is they already know now that he was down at the kennel And he's trying to find out was that guy trying to get rid of it So all that stuff he's doing is kind of a redirect if you watch magicians You guys are big fans of magicians more than I am they're redirecting while they're doing something with the other hand It's what he's doing and I always say an interrogator is like a swan They look elegant and floating along the top of the water, but they're paddling like hell underneath and you can see it He's paddling like hell right here. He's trying to keep his head above water mark You're picking up on that and seeing no stress We see this is i'm gonna go a little bit long in this one because this is probably one of the most powerful ones We're gonna see But we start off by watching Murdaugh do a rapid short stroke of the thing he always does watch how short stroke He is as he's doing and he's asked about the 911 call because that's what he thinks this is about Now you see that tissue in his right hand starting to take the crux of all this things that are going on Something else changes. Have you heard him say, you know ever until now? He starts now to have filler words. You know, you know, you know He also goes to partial sentences and phrases Okay, that's a fairly common southern speech pattern around where I live around where he lives But he doesn't use it. This is the first time I've heard it As soon as this guy looks away watch when the investigator takes a second looks away and watch that explosion of movement Just crazy only to lock right back down right there enough is enough for me to say why the hell are you doing this? Then we see really big rocking when he's asked about his son And he says he wouldn't listen to me the one missed question here is how physical did you get? I would have asked that just to fire across the bow and say I think you're violent and But I think he does a great job of containing it and then paul or murdoch gives out useless information when he talks about alcohol But watch him when you see that thing where he covers his knee mark That's in response to the crux question when he asked that crux question His hands go out to block that knee and you could say it's because he's been so balled up He needed to move out to get to there or it could be the knee or it could be both But something caused him to do that and then he gets back to keen on locking everything down If you're being interrogated dropping your hands in your lap while you're fig leafing If nothing ever changes it's just fig leafing and so what it's just your baseline Now the only problem with putting your hand on your knee is we can see everything You're like a little meter there. This is a big deviation baseline and powerful powerful interrogation step Another part in the novel one call You made the comment I should have known and the questioning that's around it You know dispatchers asking is anybody else supposed to be at the house? And you said no, ma'am. Please hurry And she says we're getting somebody out there to you and your next comment was I should have known What are you referencing in that statement? I don't remember saying that but I guess, you know all the threats and you know and I had been convinced that this was something to do with boat wreck and You know All of that They were getting to a heated argument and get physical One time. I mean a Little bit where he wouldn't listen to me Did you ever get physical with him? No, sorry How about Maggie to Paul get physical with Maggie? No Sure, she probably wanted to at times. Yeah, she wanted to with all of it. Yeah And the one time Paul Did that he had had too much to drink um in the very isolated incident Where was that was that mozelle or at a start that was that uh mozelle So that was pretty recent. No, sir. It had been a while When you turn polo And his cell phone popped out and you picked it up You're standing with something like um, I thought about doing something But then I put it back down And that was the interview Our first interview. What were your intentions with the phone? I don't know. I mean it When I when I went up doing and The phone came out having intentions of doing anything with the phone The office at 30 9 o'clock 10 o'clock we left early around 5 o'clock 30 Um, then there's been some other Time lines or times that we've talked about and you can't quite remember Um, what the times are or what time of day it was When the dispatcher asked you when was the last time you saw Maggie or told Maggie He said an hour and a half two hours ago to me. That's you know a set without thinking about it. You should route off that time We're sitting here trying to figure out a timeline the question was You told the dispatcher Hour two hours ago Hour and a half to two hours hour and a half two hours. What time was an hour one call 10 o'clock 6 p.m. Yes, sir. What's the specific time? Oh, that's there. You know what I said to the um Dispatcher He said an hour and a half ago probably two hours And what time was that? That was when you were on the phone And then one call was made at 10 o'clock six So given two hours back that would have been eight That's probably About What do you believe I'm giving you an inconsistent answer? No, I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it when I'm asking you What time you went to the office that day? What time you got home at this point in the investigation did you have the video back from Paul's phone showing The dog at the campus. No, sir. I had not you know, you said five to five thirty I've gotten the coronary out from the law firm And it shows you going in at five five thirty Going in his door. Yes, sir. And Randy says when you left about six o'clock you were still there. So the times are Matching up. I'm just trying to get an understanding of why I believe I left so the Because that's not the first time I was at my office that day There were several readings, but your card wouldn't work. Somebody had to actually have to let you win Okay, but I've got your card Opening the door at the law firm All right, mark, what do you got? Yeah, so uh, what interests me now is this yellow shirted interviewer the one that we can't really see Too much of you can see uh his breathing rate because you can see his stomach his diaphragm Moving so you can have a look at where his breathing rate is and and To all the points that have been made so far. Look that you're in this situation Let's assume probably rightly that they are Looking whether it's unreasonable or not looking to move somebody to a confession You know it could be unreasonable in this situation But that's where they're going and there's an element of nonverbal which is about time Like how quickly does or slowly does something happen? And and how quickly or slowly something happens has effect on human beings and it often shows up in their nonverbal behavior I think we're seeing from the yellow shirted interviewer That he would like this to be happening a whole lot quicker Than it is and so it takes me back to the other interviewer and and what again what I would call the Stress that's happening there, which is you know the cognitive load that not that he's out of control with things But he would like probably A better pace on it. I mean who wouldn't like to get something done faster rather than slower So not only when you're thinking about how you might do interviews whether it's in this kind of situation Or something, you know with with a little less risk in it maybe but you know even interviewing somebody for a job There's a lot of risk involved with that You've got to understand the pressures of time and what you're liable to do under these pressures of time And I think in this situation we've got somebody here Going you know what I'd like this to be happening A lot quicker than it is so interesting uh to to see that Uh chase, what do you got on this one? I almost did that that didn't go on as long as I would have liked it to luckily zoom has a Alert that comes up now when you're on oh That's just been gone forever then isn't it? So I believe he told his attorney he was innocent I believe that that's what he said to his attorney and You can I think you can tell here because he's not looking back at him very often For advice or anything and I'm going to say something that's critical of interrogation training But I'm not talking about this particular officer. This is a unique case where he's literally interrogating a former prosecutor this whole series of clips Still does illustrate why it's important not to follow just some blind step-by-step checklist for interrogations And one of the biggest Damaging mistakes that I've seen in every police department every one that I've given training to including the military Is they have zero training on how to understand the person that they're speaking to And so many departments get kind of a washed down version of interrogation training And none of them teach interrogators to understand the phrases the approaches the techniques and specific words That are going to influence certain types of people and then how to tell which type I'm talking to right now So essentially most interrogation training is kind of this basic lock pick Where they're taught to just jiggle this lock pick in the lock for hours in hopes that a confession is going to come out Or information is going to come out when all they needed was the key Which is kind of the right words that the person Their psychology the suspect psychology will respond to And as the key lesson from this video take a look at myrtle's behavior It is restrained Now lots of people get nervous in the interrogation room lots of people get stressed out innocent and guilty But only some conceal and restrain those behaviors of stress And we're definitely seeing that here scott. What do you got? All right. I agree. I think this is from this point on Uh, this is where he's beginning to realize that things aren't going to go his way That's why it's starting to get a little bit more odd looking and and things start ramping up a little bit He knows he he messed up and his brain is scrambling to fix all that stuff He's scrambling is scrambling to keep his story straight scrambling to remember what he said and what he's done at this point That's I'm just giving the overall body language View so I'm gonna stop there Greg what do you got? Yeah, this is a good one because it we see a new adapter We see he starts off by doing his normal foot moving rocking doing all that but then he twists in his chair That's something new. Why do you do that? Don't know don't know we always say It doesn't matter why it makes me want to know why so then we go there then he uses a delaying technique tell me again That gives him time to think And as soon as he gets done with that He does two handed adapting pulling a close and squeezing his arm. There's a lot going on here Then there's a negotiated answer with a little to the end. That's probably about right. Well chase I think you usually say innocent people are comfortable introducing ambiguity Let me give you a great example of that if this happened to me I would say hell. I don't know what time it was. I came home. My wife and child were dead It could have been 20 hours. Hell. I don't know my brain was not working But we don't hear that we hear that overly helpful And people who don't know how to resist interrogation always think that if I'm just helpful, they'll leave me alone That's why it works that way The one thing that I'm trying to understand is your timeline You said you probably went to the office at 3 9 o'clock 10 o'clock when you left early around 5 about 30 Then there's been some other time lines or times that we've talked about and you can't quite remember What the times are or what time of day it was When the dispatcher asked you when was the last time you saw Maggie or told Maggie He said an hour and a half two hours ago To me that's you know a set without thinking about it you route off that time We're sitting here trying to figure out a timeline The question was you told the dispatcher Hour two hours ago. I want to have to two hours. I want to have two hours. What time was an animal one call 10 o'clock 6 p.m Yes I haven't told coming up with a specific time Oh, yes there Tell me again what I said to the Dispatcher You said an hour and a half ago probably two hours And what time was that that was when you were on the phone And then I would one call was made at 10 o'clock six So given two hours back that would have been eight I think that's probably I think that's probably About right and so you wouldn't you believe I'm giving you an inconsistent answer No, I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it when I'm asking you What time you went to the office that day? What time you got home? At this point in the investigation did you have the video back from Paul's phone showing The dog with the cameras. No, sir. I had not you know, you said five to five thirty I've gotten the court read out from the law firm And it shows you going in at five five thirty Going in store. Yes, and Randy says when you lived about six o'clock you were still there So the times aren't Matching up. I'm just trying to get an understanding why I believe I left That's not the first time I was at my office that day There were several readings, but your card wouldn't work Somebody had to actually have to let you in Okay, but I've got your card Opening the door at the law firm at five thirty and then Randy saying And then Randy saying when you left at six you were still there I'm just I'm trying to Understand, you know I left the office earlier than I normally did What's your normal time to leave? I mean It's not unusual for me to be in there to a dark, you know, I try to get home in Maggie's home, you know before dark She don't like staying out there by herself or that's right so You know If it was five thirty or six, you know, I don't think I was still there at six o'clock, but um I was it wasn't long after that So I went straight um So My car have you all been able to get? Chevrolet just unload my we're still working on that. Okay. It's a long process Well, I mean I got home early enough for Paul and I to ride the property for a substantial length of time You know more than an hour. I thought probably a couple of hours that we were together, but somewhere We drove down We rode down Over those I believe Greg what he got Yeah, this starts off with non pertinent information, but the heat is really up still so he's he's adapting still He's doing all of his usual stuff squeezing and rubbing and swirling in the chair But now he starts to talk about Conditions he starts to condition everything he says with I believe and that's a cutout word because I can always say well I said I believe I don't know. No, maybe I was wrong. That's not the way people typically do it His leads him to say I believe I wasn't that's not a lie and all that kind of stuff We've heard from it But he really rocks He really rocks when they ask him about Chevrolet and talking to own star because if you don't know what your car is tracking It's tracking everything just so you know that if you're not aware that unless you're driving something really old Your car's tracking everything We've had a friend who had an accident and they were able to tell exactly what happened for the accident He goes back to his normal speech patterns No more no more phrases long sentences on non pertinent information about riding the property But when he's asked about the river Or I think it's the river he asks the questions for he loses his ability to construct a sentence What happened down there? What caused all this might have started there don't know but something changed And then he changed and then he goes back and he interrupts himself with I believe that we that believe Is part of his defense later? That's my opinion Scott. What do you got? All right, he's locked down and he does move a little bit more than he has been a lot more actually And those are just signs of stress That's all I'm gonna add to that because I'm trying to stay on the body language thing I really didn't get into the what he's saying back and forth All right mark. What do you got? Yeah, let me just dig into the central theme Of all of this and and why it confuses me as to the theme that you choose if you were innocent He's spent. I don't know how long this interview has been going on now, but he spent all the time defending his position Answering in some way and by often not answering or I don't remember but but you know committing to The interview that's going on Rather than saying Stop these ridiculous questions. I I'm nothing to do with this Find the people who did this or person who did this to my son and my wife And if they continued asking these questions then going you too are a bunch of idiots and I want you out of here right now I want a senior. I want the most senior person at this station in the room with me right now and I want this dealt with That's where I'd be at this point Because I wouldn't have killed my my wife and my son. I don't know. Well, I do know why he's not there Because he's done it. I mean, that's why That's why he's only and and and so, you know as as a fundamental Rule if he's spending all of this time defending himself when he could just go Shut up the both of you. I'm nothing to do with this. Get me somebody who's an investigator in the room If he's not going down that route, I gotta wonder why chase. What do you got on this one? Yeah, I think uh Mark you stole my notes on this one I'm thinking this is a pronounced focus. I'm just gonna like summarize what you're saying just so people can get this There's a pronounced focus on innocence And a disappearance of a person who might have done this or a desire to find out what really happened There's no desire there and this is plain and simple to diagnose This is where all attention of law enforcement should be placed And it's so rare to see this in innocent people This kind of behavior is so incredibly rare that i'm going to make an unprecedented statement here That if you see this This alone has the potential to serve as the guidepost for where law enforcement should be paying all of their attention If you see behavior like this in this clip I'm just I'm trying to understand You know I left the office earlier than I normally did What's your normal time to leave? I mean It's not unusual for me to be there until dark, you know, I try to get home in Maggie's home, you know before dark She don't like staying out there by herself at dark. That's right. So You know If it was five thirty or six, you know, I don't think I was still there at six o'clock, but um If I was it wasn't long after that So I believe that I went straight home So, you know My car have y'all been able to get Share relate to download my we're still working on that. Okay. The long process Well, I mean I got home early enough for Paul and I to ride The property for a substantial length of time You know more than an hour. I thought probably a couple of hours that we were to get but somewhere Check it out in the river We wrote down All roads. I believe Believe that we the house So where where were they? Now, did they get down? How did they get down? It's normal for y'all to leave your keys in the cars if somebody showed up and did this You're not going to take Paul's truck back in the house and leave the key in it I mean, do you know that the guns were in the truck? I mean, could they have been somewhere else? They could have been somewhere else. I mean, he wasn't He didn't have his normal truck I understand that Nolan to believes he saw the gun Three weeks beforehand I haven't talked to him. But is it is he believes it was the one that Not the one that was at the house Was his shotgun that he always kept that Paul always had but kept with them Paul primarily kept yeah, he kept one of a couple of binaries It was a couple days the last one That Paul that I'll know it's all okay and uh HDD Some type of 7 millimeter rifle. Yes, sir. Do you have that at home? Yes, sir That's what he saw. That's what he saw because I was I was told by somebody that Nolan saw a um 300 He's he told me he had not seen a 300 since March after Turkey season. All right, Greg. What do you got? So he's heated up here pretty good because he does a couple of things I've never seen in the interrogation room one of them is he tries to fig leaf while crossing his legs And I said he's doing a Sharon stone leg cross moment If you're not old enough to remember the Sharon stone movie basic instinct He does a big move like that And it's just not something you see every day. That's over the top What we see often in people prior to confession I don't mean right as they confess but as they're headed toward the confession Is they get this locked down as he is here their chin drops to protect their throat? Look at him compare his chin now back to one and see are we seeing any of that deviation But what we see then often is their feet hunt the door And that's a predecessor and then we put the pressure pressure pressure Then we give them silence let them simmer a little bit and then we go for the close I'll bet if you could see his feet they're pointing for the door already at this point Just to tell us what's going on this head mark. What do you got? Yeah, it's nothing but an agreement with what you've said the the only note that I had here because for me It seemed the only thing of of big consequence is his hand is now tucked right in at his groin area Protecting those primary sexual characteristics. I think that's a deviation from everything that we've seen so far. Yes He's been locked down. Yes. He's been protective But he's now shielding these knuckle joints in his legs and his primary sexual characteristics at the same time You know something is is up. Something is a little more extreme Scott, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I think this one's really interesting because this is the fastest bobbing back and forth we've seen so far And his breath rate is up is he's breathing. He's breathing faster and deeper And that and that I think that's a dramatic change at this point his voice tone and his Diction they're the clearest they've been so far clearest and clearest I think this is because he got a little adrenaline pop During this and he's realizing there are even more things he didn't work out properly So he's having to slow down and think about what's happening and what's happened so far He's still got all these parts of the story Swirling around his head trying to get that stuff worked out and again He doesn't have the answer for these questions. So a stress level is is through the roof on this Compared to what we've seen so far and his lawyer can't even help him and his lawyer's got his legs crossed as well Which I thought was interesting, but it's opposite of of Murders, so that was that was anyway pretty interesting. Greg. What do you got? Oh chase. What do you got? Yeah, I agree completely and If if somebody if you see somebody having trouble completing a sentence the moment a murder Weapon is introduced to the conversation There's something happening. There's something Maybe significant going on And if the person also then corrects you on the caliber of the weapon so that it's not involved with the crime That might also be a big deal. That's all I got The island is you You know, we've already established Family guns were used And if they came from Paul's truck Paul's truck was at the house So where where were they? Now did they get down? How did they get down? I mean, it's normal for y'all to leave your keys in the cars However, if somebody showed up and did this You're not going to take Paul's truck back in the house and leave the key in it I mean, do you know that the guns were in the truck? I mean could they have been somewhere else? They could have been somewhere else I mean he wasn't he didn't have his normal truck I understand that Nolan too believes he saw the gun Three weeks beforehand And I haven't talked to him. But is it is he believes it was the one that Not the one that was at the house Was his shotgun that he always kept the pole always kept with him? Oh primarily kept yeah, he kept one of a couple of binaries Yeah, it was a camo binari Is the last one That Paul that I know it's all okay and uh HDD Some type of 7 millimeter rifle. Yes, sir. Do you have that at home? Yes, sir That's what he saw. That's what he saw because I was I was told by somebody that Nolan saw a 300 He's he told me he had not seen it 300 since March after turkey season. A few more questions. Did you kill Maggie? No, could I kill my wife? Yes, no, David. You know who did? No, I do not know who did you kill Paul? No, I did not kill Paul Do you know who did? No, sir. I do not know who did Do you think I killed Maggie or the evidence in the fact I understand that and you think I killed Paul I have to go where the evidence and the facts take me and I don't have Anything that points anybody else at this time So does that mean that I am a suspect? You were still in it like I told core earlier You were still in this with it with everything that we've talked about with the family guns The ammunition nobody else's DNA my beliefs aside and go with the facts Mr. Gryffindor, there's one sentence after that I'll go first on this one This is a classic non contraction of the denial And so when he asked me killed his wife, he said no, I did not kill my wife And he doesn't say no, I didn't instead of saying no, I didn't he says no, I did not now I've I've come to the point In my life where I see that sometimes as that person may be making sure they get everything about that That statement correct and they're trying to ran that home. So that's why they don't contract. So I think maybe in in this Situation, I'm kind of on the fence about this one. It's not it's non contracted, but it didn't The flow of it isn't the one isn't the the flow you usually see when somebody says no, I did not It was very slow. It was very Dad dad dad. So I think he's he was ready for that and I think he was Um, he's trying to make sure that point gets across. I don't I don't think it's um A subconscious or you know a non conscious situation there um So these days I'm I'm on the fence about all that and this is one of the things that puts me on the fence about it um Yeah, because I thought about that for a long time Um, I think this is I think that answer is probably rehearsed I think at some point he said to himself because he hasn't been able to discuss it with his lawyer because like I think you were saying greg were you the one that said do you think he's um Chase chase. Okay. Yeah. I think you might be right. I think he told the guy who's innocent Yeah, I guess you you have to say that you didn't do it so they can You know in some cases depending on your relationship with him But I would think no one this guy's personality and the people he hangs out with I think he may have told the guy the truth You know, so I you know dirty hangs out with dirty man birds of feather Uh, but I think this was beautifully executed by the the detective at the ends He says I have to put my beliefs aside and go with the facts There's this little tether of trust You must keep between you and the person you're talking to because as soon as they're under the impression You're not there to help them Then everything changes. I know in this room. It's it's like a you know a party in there There's so many people in there But you must keep that thing you must you've got to keep that trust thing happening there So they'll be able to confide you feel like they're confiding you He's not going to confide in three other people, you know three people he would have done it with one But and I think you're you're right in this case there there's three people in there It's it's it's not going to happen And you can see that I think from the beginning that that it's not going to happen But but the detective detective I really think he does a great job in keeping that little tether man keeping that still strong by saying What he said and if if somebody out there knows this guy The the detective or you or you know how to get hold of him Please haven't get hold of us and and get hold of us at the behavior panel at gmail Dot com the behavior panel at gmail dot com and if there's no you in behavior That one's already gone. Well, we guess we had to get the one with no no you in it So it's the behavior panel Uh at gmail dot com have an email us here if you would and or if you see this Go ahead and email us there chase. What do you got? So we're seeing this classic nodding again Throughout this and look at the spots when the not I just want you to I'm not going to tell you where it is Look at the spots where the nodding spikes where it gets to its its peak point And there's question repetition with psychological distancing. So he's not saying the name He says my wife this time And he uses the officer's name This time during a denial Which is way way out of baseline is for this entire long video. It's out of baseline His body is freezing which means that he's not really adapting or doing anything. He's completely locked So we're not seeing a whole lot of movement. Then there's the non-contracted denial there But we're seeing that non-contracted denial Also added with partial repetition or what what we call in my training repetition of a question fragment Which is repeated with the denial. No, I did not kill my wife And then he's still nodding and with every other denial That was truthful. He had a very positive head shake Like this, but he's still nodding In here, which this is a rare case where those are out of baseline. It's uncharacteristic So this head nodding means something during the denials it or potentially does and This is not necessarily he's doing a great job here But this is not how a classic Trained confrontation is supposed to go granted the attorneys in the room. So it's a little bit different And there's actually a six-step protocol to make a direct confrontation to another person and let them know They're a suspect. You don't believe them and not I don't think any of those six steps are in this clip But one huge one from that protocol is using the suspect's name Especially during this time when you want to develop that little line of trust that scott was talking about That's when you want to lean out there and use that person's name And that's when, you know, scott is a big fan of kind of reaching out touching their knee And saying listen, I think you're a good person and I just want to figure out, you know, why this happened and You know, maybe you are out of your mind or whatever But i'm not blaming the officer or the detective here at all the interrogation That a lot of people receive is pretty minimal But I know he's doing his best and it's a damn good job And I'm not discounting that he's extremely good at what he does as a detective there Greg Yeah, so let's talk for a minute about that thin line of trust or whatever you want to call it Everything we do I contend is based on Maslow's hierarchy of needs And for me to get you to give me something or to want to do something for me I have to create a new sense of belonging and the magic of what we do Or there's elicitation or some interrogation Any of that is based on me creating a new normal where you belong to a tribe I belong to And that's exactly what you have to do if I am screaming and yelling and throwing stuff at you You're not going to do anything for me. You might do it for someone to get away from me So all those tools, but even if you are calling a personal liar, even if you're going at them It's about keeping that thin line of trust as you call it scott So I'll call it the same thing that thin line of trust creates a new normal Where I can then approach you and make you feel guilty for lying to me Or make you feel guilty for not being coming forward with some piece of information So let's talk about what's clear here The very first thing he says is no He just does the fading facts. He reminds me of our friend Candice Bly on dr. Phil. No just disappears But then he restates after he repeats the question did I kill my wife? He does that non-contracted denial. We've been hearing him use phrases A lot and now this non-contracted denial. I would just got it doesn't always mean something except when it does His chin is down. We usually associate with shame Not up and defiant. We usually associate with indignant or that kind of thing that non-contracted denial on his son He there's a politeness spike. No, sir. I did not when he does did you kill paul? It's interesting that all this works scott. We were at dr. Phil and they gave me the disclaimer And scott said you can tell who's in the military because they asked me a question I repeated the question as I affirmed it because that's the way my brain works That's not the way his brain works, but listen to him do it here He's doing it here very specifically sounds like me disclaiming And then after he's told he's a suspect his eyes drop down to his left Which we associate with internal conversation and then down into the right Which we associate with emotion and then a little compression What we know is pre confession body language is locked up locked up locked up Go down into this kinesthetic down left down right down left down right and then they open Well, he's not going to open with somebody sitting beside him who is part of his maslow As long as there's a room full of people and especially one of them somebody he's associated with He's not going to confess in a crowd mark. What do you got? Yeah, so look, I think the key to critical thinking is to be agnostic about absolutely everything and so you're right Anybody is right to be on the fence about any one signal and all we're doing is going look We're on the fence about everything until enough mounts up that if you went to the casino What would you gamble on the accuracy of your judgment based on being on the fence about everything until the information piles up? And that's just being intelligent, which is not making snap judgments because your instinct does that on its own It like it doesn't even need to eat to do that your instinct takes microwatts of energy Whereas your intelligent brain that does critical thinking. It's like a it's it's it's a 40 watt light bulb of energy to get that going So you do have to be comfortable You got to eat enough in order to get that working You don't do critical thinking by accident. You do it on purpose And we're getting so much information here mounting up that puts us in the direction of of He's been up to something. It's not good news for him. I want to put on top of that We then get his lawyer doing lint picking which is you know where you Take some piece of dust He's not doing it from his lapel by the way, but he's doing it on his knee I'm just showing you that so you can see it And and it is often a show of indifference a show of there isn't enough power out there I've got time to make sure there are no flies on me. There are no There's no dirt on me. I don't I'm not feeling the stress and pressure Outside in this environment. Well interesting that this lawyer who is attached to to their client They have a relationship with their client that the others in the room don't have It's meant to be a supportive relationship and you've got this person with the supportive relationship Doing lint picking at this point. Now, do we know what that means? Like we know it tends to show indifference. Is it him going Now would be the time to get rid of this client You know, I'm going to be indifferent to my relationship with this client. It could be that that's quite a nice idea Or is he signaling to the others in the room? I don't think you've got anything You know, or is he signaling you've got something there? You're on to something But I want to show you that you have nothing. I don't know which which one it is I'd have to turn to the person and go. Hey, what's going on for you right now? What's going on there? Look, let's couple with that We now get the subject leaning forward and saying do you think I did it? Well, this is compounding what's happening and this is a question I believe that would have been if somebody was innocent they'd have asked right at the start Right at the start that are gone. Do you think I what what's this about? Do you think I did it if they said yes, then the person would have gone? Okay, what evidence you have because I didn't do it like let's get through this For because we need to go and find the person who killed my wife and my kid Fast because I want justice and none of that has happened clearly Not a good not a good show going on here. I think that's all The evidence is you Thank you. Yeah, I just saw a few more questions. Okay Did you kill Maggie? No, did I kill my wife? Yes. No, David. Do you know who did? No, I do not know who did Did you kill Paul? No, I did not kill Paul Do you know who did? No, sir. I do not know who did Do you think I killed Maggie? I have to go where the evidence and the fact I understand that When you think I killed Paul I have to go where the evidence and the facts take me and I don't have Anything that points anybody else at this time So does that mean that I am a suspect? You were still in like I told core earlier You were still in this with with everything that we've talked about with the family guns The ammunition Nobody else's DNA My beliefs aside And go with the facts Well, Mr. Greffin, there's one sentence after that So Mark, so far, what have you seen up to this point? So far, I believe what we've seen is some of the most interesting and subtlest Indicators in an airy interrogation that we've looked at As to what's going on the battle that's going on Both these parties are doing a great job To attack and defend under a lot of pressure for both parties And I think what we've picked up on here is some real subtleties Of what's going on indicating that continued battle Chase, what do you think so far? So, so far, I think this is one of the first If not the first interrogation videos that we've analyzed Where every single video contains massive red flags It's normal for us to get some But in this one it is incredible Like every video here And this, all these videos are a testament To how important psychology is in interrogations And I think the interrogator did do a great job It is, I cannot imagine the insurmountable task Of interrogating a former prosecutor With his attorney sitting next to him There's somebody else, maybe one of my senior people From what it looked like sitting next to me So that would be really tough And he brought up all the key elements of the scene And I'm no detective by any means So I know that's its own entire area of expertise But I will certainly be using these for training In my classes Greg? Yeah, so far what I see is This is a guy on a fishing expedition He's in to figure out what they know Now we know that he has done a lot of heinous stuff by now We know all the facts that came out in the court case But without that Without the ability to see what's going on in interrogation You might miss all of this Because the subtlety of body language The mistake of coming in locked down And trying to resist interrogation Like you think people do And then watching it unfold As an interrogator does his job Is powerful I think what we're seeing here Is some places that gave them a place to drill down When they went on the stand I know that I would go after that crux question for sure You also saw some stress up to now working On the person who is asking the questions Interrogation is a complex thing It's an art form And it's designed for the person sitting across from you I think you did a good job All things considered With the person sitting here And again We've said this many times We'll say it again Love to have you on the show Love to talk to you Love to know more about what you're thinking When you're doing this Scott, what are you seeing? Yeah, I agree I hope he does Hope somebody gets a hold of him Or he hears about this And comes and talks to us That'd be awesome I think this is a great example Of seeing someone go through the process Of not sure if they're going to get in trouble or not To being pretty dang sure they've had it Or that everyone's onto them I think that's a great example of that And I think the detective did a wonderful job of that Because he kept us cool And he never really He never changed from that Little plane he was riding down That little just flattened right there I think he did a great job Doing that But we did see a lot of little things That we usually just blow right by Because there's so many big things happening In an interrogation that we can point out And the little things become boring But in this case, there's all the little things That were huge That made such a big difference for this one, I think All right, fellas, I think there's another good one And we'll see you next time What would you guys say If he asked you, do you think I did it? What would be your response? I'm curious I got my note here says I'll do all the questions around here, Bobo, do we? I'd say I'm not sure yet That's the one Do you think I did this? Oh, I'm not sure yet That's what I'm here to find out We're gonna find out what happened Yeah I would do exactly what this guy did Look, if you cross that line in this investigation You don't get a chance again And in my opinion, you don't get a chance In my opinion, when you do that, you have to do what he did He said, I'll let the facts speak I'm just here to collect information That way you're not turning into the bad guy And you're not adversarial Because there may be another opportunity And you can't do it If you, the determinations and interrogation Are about maintaining the relationship And you have to be really careful That's what I would do I think I'd say I'd agree that you go ahead, Chase I think I'd say, you know, Rob I'm not here to make that determination But I've been doing this a long time And it certainly doesn't... You don't seem like the person to do this Kind of premeditated thing And if that is the case or something did happen I definitely don't think you meant to do that Well, if he said, why you call me Rob? Name's Eddie Whatever Isn't his name Rob? Didn't he go by Rob? Alec Alec Let's say Rob No, Alec is what he calls himself Alec Oh, Alec And they're an X on the end of his name Yeah, but they say Alec That's right That doesn't matter Oh my god Can he call himself Murtic? We heard him call himself Murtic once And then he goes to Murdoch Then I hear him say Murdoch Yeah Hell? It's a Scottish name Pronunciation can go all over the place Mark's called a Murdo At the top Murder Murderer There's a joke me and my buddy Jason Rosely Talked about he was who's had the homicide over at West Precinct in Nashville And when I first moved to Nashville I was walking by this minimart Me and a buddy of mine And there was a lot going on There was a That had roped off in the cops Where they were walking by And there was a news guy there Right? And as we were walking by I go I go, hey man, what's going on? He goes, there's been a murder Like that, like there's been a murder And that's been sort of our We've gone back and forth for years Every time I see him because it's going on I always go, there's been a murder He was so serious We were doing the Yeah, sorry No, that's it When we were doing the Dr. Phil thing I realized how dark our sense of humor is Because the juror was in our room And we were watching videos And I was like, hey man, sorry Our sense of humor is a little dark anyway Yeah, it is So here's what I do Chase I'd to that question Yeah I'd throw my friend under the bus I'd go, I'd go He thinks you definitely did Yes That's a great way to do it That's a great way to do it But he's like And I can't convince him otherwise He's definitely like Good cop, bad cop He wants you hung Yeah, that's DOD He's doing himself straight away Department of Defense Top interrogator qualities, number seven Interrogator distances themselves From authority figures Yeah That's threat and rescue Is the Yeah, I felt so sorry for that little guy Greg Man, we went in there and he was in makeup And he was welled up He's about to cry We were like, what's wrong with this cat, man? And then Tina She was the mother My makeup person She said he's really, really nervous I had to tell what he said, Greg When he said, what's going on, man? Yeah, he said, is he going to grill me? And I was like, no, man You're like the star of the show today Yeah You're an innocent member of the public All right, check it out So we're in Dr. Phil's dressing room Let's go Okay, this place is something Isn't that cool Yeah Let's go in here, we'll see you then Okay, the rest of it we'll make sure you know Oh, it's a gratitude sign Come here Yeah, okay Stay in there Nice place, yeah, for sure You're still on the crack Look around Look around this place, real nice spot All right, next, let's take a look at his cars That's, that's his car That's Robin's car That's Robin's car and his car Same thing, got this window here And then come around this way Come back this way, you can see his Look at that There's that Here's the office It's a great, great office Yeah Oh my God So He loves it in here Hey, call security, will you? I got some rip-rap in the office I'll tell you that Today we're going to talk about Alex Murda He is on our Murda, have you pronounced it? He's on the stand And Greg wants to tell us about the videos we're going to watch So he took the stand as a defense witness And this is a very finite set of the questions That he responded to in cross And you're telling this jury that That's what happened And you were back at the house at 849 And you lay down on the captain does for a second And then you were up with more steps in a shorter time period Than you had done all day Well, I mean, your number is 849 What I'm telling this jury is that I went down there And when I took that chicken from Bubba I would have said something to Mags I got back on that golf cart And I drove back to my house After getting back to my house I went inside And in short order I went to the couch That's what I'm telling this jury Did you go anywhere else in the house? Mr. Waters, I can't tell you specifically about that I don't think so But I may have Did you have that tan blackout and a 12 gauge shotgun On that golf cart when you drove down there? No You didn't? No Did you see them when you were down there? No No So we got you back around 849 And you're leaving at 902, correct And you didn't see any weapons down there You just happened to be back there You didn't hear anything at all Did you hear anything at all, Mr. Murdoch During that time period? No, I did not You didn't? Didn't you tell law enforcement that you thought you heard them pull up? Then you tell law enforcement that? I did think they had pulled up All right, so that was that you did think that? Yes All right, so now you're saying there was a car pulling up? No You didn't testify to that yesterday, did you, in your new version of events that? No, I don't construct Mr. Waters, I don't believe there was a car pulling up Okay, but that's what you told law enforcement, didn't you? No, I told law enforcement that I thought they had pulled up All right, but you're saying you couldn't hear Blackout shots supposedly, but you could hear that, correct? I didn't say I couldn't hear Blackout shots, but I'm saying that I thought when I got up from taking a nap, if I took a nap, but when I got up from laying down, as I was getting ready to go to my mom's, there was a point in time where I thought Maggie and Paul had come back All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so my understanding is he is part of an established family there in that area, established in the law. I don't know whether he or any of his members of the family have ever been mayor of the area. Scott, I can tell you this, he's definitely the mayor of qualifier town in the get your t-shirts, get your t-shirts in the store. He says, I'm telling what I'm telling this jury, that's that's not that's a qualifier What I'm telling this jury doesn't mean it's necessarily the truth or a fact. What I'm saying, I would have, if I, I can't tell you specifically, and I don't believe, lots and lots of qualifiers, I'm just giving you a few there, that is a signal there that there's not necessarily some accuracy or truth going on. What's the other signal left in there for me? When, when he's cornered about the idea of he couldn't hear anything, but surely he heard the police car, we see him reel back and he starts adapting on the microphone there. That is moving the microphone. He doesn't need to do that. And so I think that's a true adapter to the stress of being cornered. And also, I believe we're going to see this time and time and time again throughout this, when he's put in a corner or under some stress and pressure. And that's all I got on that one. Scott, what do you got? All right. I think this answers as, as prepared as it can be. Of course, being a former prosecutor and being in that world, we're seeing two former real prosecutor and former prosecutor go head to head. So we're seeing a lot going on here. We're not seeing any huge cues of stress right now is blink rates pretty low, and it's not a lot of illustrating from the extremities and a lot, a lot, a lot of, of moving around with his hands and arms. And some are going to say those nods when he was saying of yes, when it should be no, are cues of deception. They aren't, those are what I call confirmation nods. So when he's saying no, but his head's going, yes. Now, had they been small, if he said no, and his head had gone like this and kept going, that's a different story. We see a little bit of that, but that's not, it doesn't mean he's lying or telling the truth. But if someone in another situation, similar to this is saying no, and their head goes like that. And according to Paul Ekman, that is one of the things you want to look for to make sure you're, you're dealing with someone not being deceptive. We see a couple of short shoulder shrugs as it goes through this. Obviously he's not going to be as confident with what he's saying because he's on the spot. A lot of people are watching now. He's aware that everybody in the world is probably watching this or so many people are, but I still think there's a questionable step going on here. All right, that's, that's all I get. Chase, what do you got? So I want to approach this by what's missing in a lot of these videos. So we'll just follow, I'll use this behavioral profiling template for the rest of the videos that are coming up, as well as this one. And there's something missing here, and it's a denial of circumstances is what we're seeing here. He's not denying anything else, but circumstances. So his story is not about what happened. And he says it himself. It's not about what happened. His story is about what he's telling the jury. And one thing, Mark, you, you nailed it. He says, I would have said something to mags. He didn't say that he did. And if this did happen, I would have said something to mags. I don't think that's there. And when he's asked about the shotgun and the rifle being on the golf cart, this is strange and unusual head, not a may very well be a confirmation nod. Let's keep taking a look and see what, you know, where his nods are, where his head shakes are, because somebody to just say one thing means one thing. We may be looking at something else. We'll take a look at the next one. So, but this is unusual for him, based on his behavior in the police vehicle and a few other videos, but it doesn't, I don't think we're seeing that meaning deception by itself at all. So it's kind of, I do agree with you. And people do it all the time. He doesn't very often. Greg. Yeah. So a couple of things. One is he's clearing up details for a reason because he admitted that he had lied about not being at the house at the time of the murder. He was supposedly away. Now he's coming back and his ploy as in his testimony was to tell you how pathetic he's been in the past for stealing from clients, including quadriplegic underage people and all that. And to say yes, and I lied and and and now let's see how that works out for him in the long term. I'm also going to tell you, there are two examples of the organism doing what the organism has made the organism successful in this video. One of them is him doing over and over and one of them is me because I didn't prepare for this. I'm watching these videos and telling you what I see. And so this will be you getting as close to cold as I can get. There is a place where his blink rate does increase when they say, where else did you go in the house? Well, if he's running around and picking up weapons to go down and do something, he would probably get a little blink rate increase around that. There's also a couple of things that you listening to him may find interesting dis in that. This is an educated guy who talks that way. And you may say, well, that doesn't play well for him. Well, it may very well play well for him in low country and mark to your point, he's part of a long legacy of prosecutors like 1920 to 2006. His family held the office of solicitor, which is prosecutor there. And he is an assistant prosecutor, which means he has a badge. Now we said before he wasn't somebody said he's not he is he's he has badges. He has been a volunteer in that program. You also feel watch him. He says hard no when they ask him about the black out and the shotgun because those are the murder weapons. So he's prepared that Scotty does your loping. I can tell he's prepared because he's telling boom, boom, boom, boom until and mark that's you with the downward intonation that's telling until they start asking questions. And then his pattern, his cadence, his everything shifts. He came here to tell a story. And when he gets the chance, he does tell that story. What's interesting to me is when we was telling the police hours after the murder of his wife and son who's been blown out and he found him on the side of the road, he are on the side of the building. He had no grief whatsoever. Now it's suddenly got a grief muscle when it's about him on the stand could be Botox and he hasn't had any. But I don't think that's what it is. I think we're seeing something different. And I just think what you need to pay attention to is all that Scott, you brought it up early, all that prosecutor, all that attorney language we're going to see here, but mark your dead on. He's going to qualify. He's going to ask him parse facts and make the question what he wants to answer. That's all I see. And you're telling this jury that that's what happened. And we were back at the house at 849 and you lay down on the captain does for a second and then you were up with more steps in a shorter time period than you had done all day. Well, I mean, your number is 849. What I'm telling this jury is that I went down there and when I took that chicken from bubble, I would have said something to mags. I got back on that golf cart and I drove back to my house after getting back to my house. I went inside. And in short order, I went to the couch. That's what I'm telling this jury to go anywhere anywhere else in the house. Mr. Waters, I can't tell you specifically about that. I don't think so. But I may have. Did you have that tan blackout and a 12 gauge shotgun on that golf cart when you drove down there? No, you didn't. No, did you see them when you were down there? No. No. So we got you back around 849 and you're leaving at 902, correct? And you didn't see any weapons down there. You just happened to be back there. You didn't hear anything at all. Did you hear anything at all, Mr. Murdock during that time period? No, I did not. You didn't? Didn't you tell law enforcement that you thought you heard them pull up? Then you tell law enforcement that? I did think they had pulled up. All right. So that was that you did think that? Yes. All right. So now you're saying there was a car pulling up? No. You didn't testify to that yesterday, did you, in your new version of events that? No, I don't construct. Mr. Waters, I don't believe there was a car pulling up. Okay. But that's what you told law enforcement, didn't you? No, I told law enforcement that I thought they had pulled up. All right. But you're saying you couldn't hear blackout shots supposedly, but you could hear that, correct? I didn't say I couldn't hear blackout shots. But I'm saying that I thought when I got up from taking a nap, if I took a nap, but when I got up from laying down, as I was getting ready to go to my mom's, there was a point in time where I thought Maggie and Paul had come back. But you never told them all this new story that you've constructed in light of this trial. Is that correct? I did not tell them that I went to the kennel. I lied about that. And at the same time, you also looked at this jury and tried to tell them that you had been cooperative in this investigation. Other than lying to them about going to the kennel, I was cooperative in every aspect of this investigation. Very cooperative except maybe the most important fact of all that you were at the murder scene with the victims just minutes before they died, right? I did not tell them that I went to the kennel. Chase, what do you got? So I'm going to leave body language out of this for right now. So I want you to consider something from a profiling only perspective. So if someone's family members are killed and they want to find out what happened, what reasonable or sane person would lie about their story? So what are the circumstances where immediately after a murder or an incident like this, a person decides to lie about their day? So in a lot of cases, guilty people are going to admit to one lie so they can appear to be coming clean. We might call this a micro or a mini confession. And this sometimes serves to alleviate this natural human desire to confess. And this admission about lying makes guilty people feel like they're admitting fault. And unconsciously, they believe that they're shaping how we see them. So if they're coming clean about this one thing, they must not be guilty. So that might be something that we're seeing here. And this is just a tremendous red flag that the lie is there existing in the first place. Mark. Yeah, so he is very good at not answering with yes or no answers as the prosecutor is trying to rally him into simple yes or no. He'll tend to repeat the question back in the opposite of how it's been put forward. I did not tell them that I went to the kennel again, not contracted. So very clear and uncontracted in telling you the opposite of what he's being rallied into. And I think that's that's purposeful. He knows what the prosecutor is trying to do, get it to say yes or no answers. It's going to be simpler to put him in a corner if he'll do yes or no. Let me just pick up on one element of body language, which I think is kind of interesting. You're right, Greg, that we didn't in the in the first visit with the police see any forehead action. We have a lot of forehead action here. So we've got to think to ourselves, well, is he is he putting it on to show concern? Or is he actually concerned and under pressure? In order to work out which one it is, I would put alongside that that his his chest is very concave at the moment shoulders are in chest is concave, protecting vital organs on the body as we we often say. So I might bias towards the straight the stress in the forehead is potentially real stress at this point, not a concern that he's putting on for the audience. Now, I could be wrong. It could be the opposite. But all I'm saying to you is look, I'm trying to put information together to come to a best best guess conclusion, and then always test my guesses test my guesses about what else do I see? What else do I know? What are my friends around me think it is? What are other experts around me think it is? So at the moment, I would bias towards he's though he's used to this situation from not the side that he's on at the moment, but the other side, though he's used to that court, he's not used to being here. He could be under real stress and pressure here. Greg, what do you think? What do you got on this one? Yeah, let's start off by talking about the Liars Loop, something Scott and I have in the true crime workshop. But the Liars Loop says you get a trigger, and then you got to fabricate, and then you you've de-conflict inside your head, then you pitch, then you get challenged. Now when you get challenged, you have to defend. And then what happens to you is you get in a spiral if the questioner is doing a good job. Well, he had time between the time he actually executed. Let's assume he killed her. He had time or his family, he had time after he killed to fabricate for information while he was waiting for the police and 911. Now we're going to hear a lot of really interesting details as we go. So he's de-conflicted that stuff in his head and Chase, what you're talking about, I think is a kind of a paving stone. If I flip this paving stone over, you won't check the rest. We'll say there's where the problem is. And what he's doing, I always call that trading guilt. He'll throw out some guilt that it's an ultimate redirect. Look, I lied. I lied. I'm sorry I lied. And you redirect to there. We'll find out later when he said he lied. And interestingly for the four of us, we all saw it. When he was in the car, we knew something changed. All this red flagged his baseline deviation. And he admits that's when he decided to lie. But interestingly, he's got all that grief muscle, the concern, all this stuff showing up in his head. And we say grief muscle is the arch, but these muscles actually are part of that. And that grief muscle is a combination of five muscles. I want you to listen to the difference in the way he responds to the first two questions. One is telling and the other is halting and shifting as he goes through it. So something has changed in the way he is responding to two questions. He's got something there that he did before. That's good enough. I'll just leave it at that. And Scott, what do you got? I think right here, his story didn't work. So he's trying to come, he's coming with something else and it's messed up his timeline. So he's having to go back and try to correct that. I think that's part of what's given the stress here as well. But at the same time, he's so focused on that prosecutor because his blink rate is low. His eyes are a little bit wise compared to what they've been in the, in what we've seen up to this point. And when he has that direct eye contact when they lock, it lasts even longer. I mean, between blinks. So I think that was really interesting. He doesn't use any illustrators at all. He's really still and that's, that lets us know something's up here because he's really careful about what he's saying. He has to catch everything perfectly because this could be the question that sends him to the pokey for the rest of his life. That's what I got. But you never told them all this new story that you've constructed in light of this trial. Is that correct? I did not tell them that I went to the kennel. I lied about that. And at the same time, you also looked at this jury and tried to tell them that you had been cooperative in this investigation. Other than lying to them about going to the kennel, I was cooperative in every aspect of this investigation. Very cooperative, except for maybe the most important fact of all that you were at the murder scene with the victims just minutes before they died, right? I did not tell them that I went to the kennel. And then you would agree with me that from 902 to 906, your phone finally comes to life and starts showing a lot of steps. I do agree with that. What were you doing? I was getting ready to go to my mom's house. Getting ready to go? I thought you took a shower already. You were just laying down on the couch. What all you need to do to get ready to go to your mom's house? I mean, there wasn't anything to get ready in that aspect, but I was getting ready to go. I was preparing to leave. Doing what? I don't know if I got up, went to the bathroom. I don't know. I can't tell you exactly what I was doing. That's far more steps in a shorter time period than any time prior, as you've seen from the testimony in this case. So what were you so busy doing? Going to the bathroom? No, I don't think that I went to the bathroom. No, I didn't get on the treadmill. Jog in place? No, I didn't jog in place. No, sir, I did not do jumping jacks. What were you doing, Mr. Murdoch, for those four miles? Preparing to leave for my mom's house. What? What does that mean? I mean, you're in the front room on that couch where you say you laid down. The suburban's just right outside. What are you doing? I don't know if I got up and went to my room, went to the gun room, went back in that. Doing what? You've been so clear in your new story about everything. What were you doing during these four minutes? I disagree with your assertion about every detail. I don't recall. I know that I was getting up and I was leaving. I was going to check on my mom. But specifically what I was doing, I don't know. I know what I wasn't doing, Mr. Waters, and what I wasn't doing is doing anything as I believe you've implied that I was cleaning off or washing off or washing off guns, putting guns in a raincoat, and I can promise you that I wasn't doing any of that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, there's a couple of things in this one that are interesting. Scott, you always point out, he does a single shoulder shrug and he points his chin toward it when he says didn't go to the bathroom. Well, I go clean out the traps in that bathroom and find what I found there. I don't know if they did that or not, but that's usually where you'll find evidence because people are not smart enough to unscrew the J-trap and flush it out. So you'll find evidence in there and whether that's DNA from whatever's going on or whether you find blood. He has a grief muscle. We see in the beginning of this, but he's got requests for approval, his forehead up, and eye lock at all times. Very low blink, just really good eye lock. What we always refer to as a romance or he's paying. Well, there's nothing romantic about that stare. I think you said, Mark, he looks like a predator following him around the room. When he talks about the treadmill, he has a lip compression, so there's some withheld information there. You've got to wonder why. And then he, Mark, you pointed out he's hollow. This is in the South. If you look at old pictures, I'm just a big man. I think he's 64. And if I would have described him before all of this as corn fed use Southernism, he's a big old boy. And he lost all that weight. And so his clothes are different and he sits different because he's accustomed to holding all that weight and holding it differently. I think it's part of why we see that posture shift. Scott, what do you got? I agree with you. He seems like one of those guys that would like sit around his house in a commodo, a kimono in his underwear all the time, saying, you know, answering the phone and cooking and stuff like that. But he came over and put his clothes on real quick. Anyway, so now 283 steps doesn't sound like a whole lot of steps. But if you try to walk that off in your house in about four minutes, that's a whole lot of steps happening right there. I mean, that actually is a lot. And what I think was happening there, I know we're not supposed to say, here's what I think happened. I think he's walking around going, Oh, no, Oh, no, now what I do, I gotta make sure everything's covered. Oh, you know, no, you know, on the phone, calling people, all that stuff. Because he's got a couple of phone calls in there. So I think there's a lot going on there. I think he's, uh, he's walking around in a panic because he's just done all this stuff. So he's up and around. Uh, he continues pretty much with the same body language, the verbal delivery, and just a little bit more illustrating, not a whole lot more. The prosecutor's trying to get him all worked up and it's slowly but surely working because we see him start getting a little bit tense. We do see some stuff in the, in his brow. But again, that's, I got some theories about what's going on up there, but I'll, I'm going to save them for a little bit. And again, I think the great part is we're watching these two attorneys sort of, uh, battle each other and they, they both got their glasses on. They're looking down their noses at each other. So there's no reason for, for, for murder. Do you say Murdoch or Murdoch? He says Murdoch is, which one is it? Does it matter? I don't think it matters. I think it's a local pronunciation, local pronunciation. Yeah. All right. Anyway, so he's got his, his all the way down to the tip of his nose. He's not even using them. I haven't seen him use his glasses yet, but he's looking down his nose at this attorney. And I think that's part of that psychological thing they've got going on back and forth. Uh, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree, Greg. He, um, he's really locked, uh, his target there. Uh, there is a, what you might call a predatory gaze and Scott, you were, you were bringing that up. I, I was just agreeing with that. Um, yeah, predatory great gaze there. He knows where the, the, um, the target should be and where the conflict is going to come from. Uh, yeah, I looked up his height as well, uh, Greg, because in order to work out how much ground you can cover with that amount of steps, you need to know the height of the person because the human bodies are, are, are, um, you know, that is how, that's how tall I am. For example, if you hold your hands out like that, the distance from your fingertips is how tall you are. It doesn't work for you. Okay. I'm about six foot six rich. Okay. Some people, some people are slightly shorter in their legs or longer in their legs. It depends, but it, it kind of roughly works. So with that amount of steps, you can cover, you can cover around about easily a quarter of a kilometer, uh, in distance. Now, if you're going up and down steps or things like that, it won't quite work out, but you could cover a lot of ground as a six foot four, uh, guy, uh, in that amount of time, you're going at quite a pace and you're going to quite a crack there. Anyway, uh, all of that aside, what interests me most is that he answers by the negative all the time. This is what I wasn't doing that day. I didn't do that. I disagree. I don't know. I don't recall. Um, I didn't go on the treadmill. It's all via the, the negative. I can promise you what I wasn't doing that day rather than promising you what he was doing that day. And that's important for trying to convict somebody of something because you can't convict people on what, on the negative. You can't prove and you can't prove what isn't there. You can only prove what is there. So he, he really knows what he's doing. I think in this situation, now, whether it will pay off for him and whether people can see past that, it doesn't really matter whether jury can see past it. They need positive evidence of something, not the idea of, of something that wasn't happening. I would suggest. So no specifics at all, just themes, the themes of I was getting ready to visit my mum. I was going to check on my mum. That's a theme and he says no specifics and he rejects all implications that come. So all of that to say, he's tough to pin down. He's tough to pin down because he won't answer questions only in the negative. Chase, what do you go on this one? Yeah, I agree with you. One thing here though, you listen to him talk in the beginning of this clip. First, he suggests he might have gone to the bathroom. Then when opposing council asked him by going to the bathroom, he says he probably didn't go. This is just weird. All the details here and the filling of gaps shows us something interesting. He's uncomfortable with uncertainty. People who are being honest about not remembering will often have no problem at all, reasserting that they're unable to remember. And they'll most often just make a firm stand and a confident statement that they don't remember. I don't remember. So they're confident because they aren't hiding anything. So remember this head shake thing in this clip, every single denial about the treadmill, jogging in place and all that. He knows for sure these things are not true. You see a perfect horizontal head shake. Each and every time. Then when he's making a denial at the end here about cleaning off guns, you say definite nodding as he denies this. This might indicate two potential things. I'll let you decide. One, he's nodding for confirmation to the jury to confirm because he kind of looks that direction too. There's a gesture mismatch potentially of possible deception. And as a quick note, if you ever want to just kind of defeat an interrogator, the phrase I don't remember is the most difficult thing for people like us to overcome and deal with. Maybe I shouldn't see. No, one more, one more thing. If he was in interrogation at that bathroom thing came up, Chase, all they do is use the bait question there and say, Hey, listen, because they've already been in search of this place. They could say, Hey, listen, man, is there any reason whatsoever that your DNA or their DNA would be in your bathroom? Any blood and anything like that? You know, any reason whatsoever? Now, they could have been the house and been in there earlier and stuff, but you can make up something like how fresh it was or how new it was because he's not going to know the details on that with the way tech is these days. So that's that's one thing that could have gone down a road there. What are you going to say, Greg? Yeah, I believe he lives on a septic tank. There's a ton of opportunity to find stuff because anything that you wash down the drain goes straight into septic tank. So I don't know. Don't know if that's what they've searched, but I didn't hear any scientific evidence. Don't know. And then you would agree with me that from 902 to 906, your phone finally comes to life and starts showing a lot of steps. I do agree with that. What were you doing? I was getting ready to go to my mom's house. Getting ready to go. I thought you'd take a shower already. You were just laying down on the couch. What all you need to do to get ready to go to your mom's house? I mean, there wasn't anything to get ready in that aspect, but I was getting ready to go. I was preparing to leave. Doing what? I don't know if I got up, went to the bathroom. I don't know. I can't tell you exactly what I was doing. That's far more steps in a shorter time period than than any time prior, as you've seen from the testimony in this case. So what were you so busy doing? Going to the bathroom? No, I don't think that I went to the bathroom. No, I didn't get on the treadmill. Jog in place? No, I didn't jog in place. No, sir, I did not do jumping jacks. What were you doing, Mr. Murdoch, for those four miles? Preparing to leave for my mom's house. What? What does that mean? I mean, you're in the front room on that couch where you say you laid down. The suburban's just right outside. What are you doing? I don't know if I got up and went to my room, went to the gun room, went back in that. Doing what? You've been so clear in your new story about everything. What were you doing during these four minutes? I disagree with your assertion about every detail. I don't recall. I know that I was getting up and I was leaving. I was going to check on my mom. But specifically what I was doing, I don't, I don't know. I know what I wasn't doing, Mr. Waters. And what I wasn't doing is doing anything as I believe you've implied that I was cleaning off or washing off or washing off guns, putting guns in a raincoat. And I can promise you that I wasn't doing any of that. Okay. Do you know why so many phone calls were missing from the log around this relevant time period when law enforcement downloaded your phone on June 10th? From my phone? Yeah. No, I don't. Did you delete them, Mr. Murdock? Not intentionally. Just around the time June 7th, all these calls are missing, but you had nothing to do with that between June 7th and June 10th. No, sir. I did not. And I did not delete phone calls from my phone. Mr. Waters, one of the most important things in this whole thing for me has been getting this data that I believe would exist. Phone calls and phone records would be part of that. I've been in enough civil cases and used phone records enough times to know that you delete a phone call from your phone. It doesn't disappear. So I can tell you this jury and everybody who's listening that I did not intentionally delete phone calls from my phone. Yeah, because you started talking about that you're a former prosecutor. Correct. And former lawyer doing civil cases. We went through that yesterday and boy, you're busy being on that phone right out of the gate at 902, right? Objections overruled. Am I a busy bee? Yeah, I am using my telephone at I think I call at 905. I start and call my dad and I agree that I made other phone calls. And one of the first things you start talking about with law enforcement is these calls that you made to Maggie. Correct. You recall that from your first statement to law enforcement. One of the first things that I said to law enforcement. Yeah, that's one of the things you talk about. I'm talking about with your interview with Special Agent Davo. I don't remember that being the first thing we talked about, but if Mr Owens asked me about it, then I know you sure. Didn't you? I did. You don't recall? No, I don't I don't recall. Yep. Chase, what do you got? This is just a sea of what we call non contracted denials where I did not I do not instead of didn't or don't. And secondly, he's saying I can tell you and I can tell this jury. I can tell you. It doesn't mean that he's saying that at all. So that when anything comes up, they're essentially, well, I didn't say that. I just said that I could say that. So this is a kind of a backing out. When he says not intentionally, the blink rate goes into a huge spike, what I call a context spike. So this is a key moment where I would be looking for it, and we're seeing a big little big mountain of blink rate there. And then he goes in right still at the spot when he's saying not intentionally, there's shuffling in the chair, which is not a common behavior for him. There's immediate adapting and adjusting this mic. And there's this discussion of the first things he's saying to the police here. And one thing we've seen since the beginning of this case is that every effort that's made is focused at his innocence, his story, his timeline, his suffering, and his personal strategy. And the minuscule amount of time that he spends vaguely and softly suggesting that he'd like to find out who did this is washed out here by his fear of shrinking the pool of potential suspects. So either he's got no concern for who did this or why they did it, which in itself should be horrifying. Or there's a chance he's very sure who did this and his career in law has just convinced him that the facts win cases. As a lawyer, he got convinced that facts win cases, that if he could just inject enough facts, his emotions aren't relevant whatsoever. Scott. Right. He's so nervous that when he says not intentionally, he moves forward because he's trying to get that point across the not intentionally part that his chin hits that mic. And that's how intense this is for him because he knows this is important. He's trying to stay calm, but as Joe Navarro says, you can have a poker face, but you can't have a poker body. So no matter how calm he's trying to stay, his body is telling us everything that's going on, most everything anyway, because he's doing a great job of trying to stay calm, but he's not doing very well because this is the most animated we've seen him yet up to this point. His stress level is really starting to rise up because that attorney is poking at him, making him, getting mad, trying to make him angry and it's working. It's working for him. He tries to get his old, his old status as a prosecutor and attorney. He's trying to use that to say, yeah, I know that if you delete phone, you know, delete phone calls off your phone, you can see it. But when he was thinking about doing this, when he was playing this out, he didn't think it would go that far. He didn't think they'd say, oh, you know, you're going to be in trouble for, he didn't go that far. That's what he was doing. He's walking around his house, freaking out and deleting phone calls and things like that on his phone. That goes back to those 283 steps. I think that's what was going on there. And again, we see more head torso and arm movements and this clip than anything after this point. So his stress level is rising and he's getting a little bit angry at this point. I think that the prosecutor is doing a pretty good job on firing him up. Greg, what do you got? This is a really good one because he does some distancing techniques a couple of times. He repeats the question twice. He says, my phone? Well, no, that guy's phone. What the hell do you think I'm talking about? Number one, then when he gets to the second one where he says the first thing, first thing we said, and he chaffs and redirects. And Scott, I think all of his talking and for those of you who don't watch us all the time, chaff and redirect comes from an aircraft, throwing flares to get missiles to follow the instead of the plane. Same idea if I regurgitate enough stuff. I used to be a prosecutor and I know and I know and then he redirects and he just hides in all that garbage that he's throwing out there. There's some social signaling here and I'll talk about that in just a minute because he is in his element still. Regardless of what you want to say, he's still in South Carolina. He's still in a place where people understand the way he speaks and all those things. While he says my phone and he starts to deny, look at that head shake or that head shake is not like anything we've seen to now where he usually does this chase you pointed out earlier. There's a quick, like if you ever see a dog when they're nervous, they move rapidly. You're seeing that with him. So we know he's under his skin. We can see that happening. He interrupts himself to start to throw out some guilt in there when he starts to talk about, well, I know, and I didn't do that. Maybe I haven't mistakenly deleted it. There's a chase you would call it a vanishing perpetrator. Somebody's had his phone and been deleting messages, I guess. So he's saying, no, no, no, I was so confused or whatever. So he gets away from it, but he edits as he speaks there. He then repeats that question. And when he says the first thing, he doesn't even answer the question. He does a really slick redirect. Say not the first thing we talked about. That's a redirect. So it gives him a chance for you to have to ask a second, third and fourth question to get there. He touches his chest at one point. And some of us are going to say probably if you think culturally that could mean something. If you're from low country, South Carolina, and people do this when they say something and they're being genuine, he may do that to persuade people in the Middle East. It's common for people to put their hand to their chest and they're being honest. We're in the being sincere. Same thing could be true in low country. I would venture to say probably there, you know, we are all Southern boys are raised by Southern women. And a lot of Southern women will do that in that process. And finally, I'd say this, this guy has a legacy, a long legacy where his family has been the prosecutors or solicitors in that area for a hundred years. He's been involved with it. And everybody in that culture, in that Maslow is going to recognize him as somebody, a big fish in that pond somehow. So whatever cultural signaling he's sending that we aren't even aware of is going to impact their decision making ability and how they perceive this situation. Why would this powerful person do that is what he's trying to signal out. And that's a that's a survival thing. Now they chose to put him on the stand. And for him to go in and say, yes, I stole from people. And yes, I did this. And yes, I was a drug user. And no, I don't know where $12 million went. But that doesn't make me a murderer. If I concede these things, why wouldn't I concede that chase her back to what you were talking about earlier? And back to where I said, if you flip the stone over, they'll stop looking and say, oh, yeah, yeah, he's a liar. He's a thief. He's a drug user. But he probably didn't kill his family. I think that's what we're seeing. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so if you go back to our previous episode on this guy, you'll notice that we recognized in the car that the phone was going to be an issue that there's something incongruent with some some kind of call in there. And here it is coming up. And here it is, we are seeing that extra pressure and stress come on him at this point. Chase, you're right, facts will win the case. Well, when I was studying logic, here's what understood to be a fact for a fact, you need sensible data by sensible data. That means it has to be sent sensed, you got to be able to touch it, paste it, smell it, see it, hear it. And for it to be a really good fact, you need at least three separate pieces of sensible data. And so the guy says, look, you know, these records just don't disappear. Yeah, but if you eliminate one of the pieces of sensible data, you may be only left with another piece or two more pieces. And it's harder to form a fact for a jury. So you well know, if you can destroy some elements of sensible data, you diminish the idea of somebody having a fact in front of them, they can maybe still get a fact out of it. But does it really convince a jury? So I would say he's clever. He knows what he's doing here with this missing log, because he says, you know, he didn't, he didn't, well, did you delete them? Not intentionally. So probably you deleted them. Probably you did. They're certainly deleted, aren't they? They've certainly gone. And I don't know who else has access to the phone. And I'm not sure how you delete these things unintentionally. I mean, it's possible. It's possible. But now, look, look what's happened, we're into the realm of possibility. And possibility isn't fact. And we want facts in order to convict somebody around this, we get the microphone adaption just has been said before, we get eye blocking, we get swinging from side to side. One more I'll add to that is we get a shoulder barge as well. The shoulder just moves forward and barges forward with that. So I think you're right, Scott, he's getting he's getting more aggressive as we go forward. We'll see that escalate going forward as well. That's all I got on that one. Do you know why so many phone calls were missing from the log around this relevant time period when law enforcement downloaded your phone on June 10th? From my phone? Yeah. No, I don't. Did you delete them, Mr Murdock? Not intentionally. Just around time June 7th, all these calls are missing, but you had nothing to do with that between June 7th and June 10th. No, sir, I did not. And I did not delete phone calls from my phone. Mr. Waters, one of the most important things in this whole thing for me has been getting this data that I believe would exist. Phone calls and phone records would be part of that. I've been in enough civil cases and used phone records enough times to know that you delete a phone call from your phone. It doesn't disappear. So I can tell you this jury and everybody who's listening that I did not intentionally delete phone calls from my phone. Yeah, because you started talking about that you're a former prosecutor, correct? And former lawyer doing civil cases. We went through that yesterday. And boy, you're busy be on that phone right out of the gate at 902, right? Objections overruled. Am I a busy bee? Yeah. I am using my telephone at, I think I call at 905. I start and call my dad and I agree that I made other phone calls. And one of the first things you start talking about with law enforcement is these calls that you made to Maggie, correct? You recall that from your first statement of law enforcement? One of the first things that I said to law enforcement? Yeah, that's one of the things you talk about. I'm talking about with your interview with Special Agent Dave Owen. I don't remember that being the first thing we talked about, but first things. If Mr. Owens asked me about it, then I know you sure. Didn't you? I did. You don't recall? No, I don't. I don't recall. Would you dispute me if I said you brought it up? Did I brought up? What brought up what? Mr. Murdock, your phone. Phone calls to Maggie? Yes. That I brought up phone calls to Maggie and David Owens. I'm asking you, is that one of the things that you talked about in your first interview with Dave Owen? That you pulled out your phone and started looking at it? That you brought that up? Do you recall that? Well, but that's not what you asked, Mr. Owens. You asked me, was that the first thing that I talked to him about, and that was the discrepancy. I certainly don't dispute that. Mr. Owens and I talked about phone calls. But that's not what you said, so just to be clear. Well, the real reason, Mr. Murdock, is that you as a lawyer and prosecutor are up at 902, finally having your phone in your hand, moving around and making all these phone calls to manufacture an alibi. Is that not true? It's absolutely incorrect. So that's just another circumstance and coincidence in this particular case. Right around the time that you lied to law enforcement about maybe one of the most important facts in the case. Member for the question. It is an absolute fact that I am not manufacturing an alibi, as you say. How do you remember so much detail about everything else, but you don't remember what you were specifically doing to generate 283 steps while you're making all these phone calls in the same four minute period? I remember unequivocally, without any doubt, with as clear a mind as I could have at any time that I never manufactured any alibi in any way, shape or form because I did not and would not hurt my wife and my child. So I know for a fact that I never, ever, ever created an alibi. Why don't you remember what you were doing when you were so busy for this four minute critical period? I do remember what I was doing. Other than I was getting ready to go. Because that's what I was doing. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so let me follow this logic idea just because it interests me and I hope it interests all of you as well. What we've got here is, and I think why it's kind of confounding the prosecution as well, and there feels to me to be a bit of a stalemate on at the moment, is there's a bit of black box thinking here going on. And I get this from a client that I have who, his industry, his job, is there are transactions that get done in the financial industry and what's called a black box. It means you can't see what happens in there. And the reason you can't see what happens is if you knew what was happening, you might be able to do it faster than the person doing the transaction. So what he does is, is he looks outside the box and predicts based on looking outside the box what's going to happen in the box. And if he can do it faster, he manages to do the transaction before the transaction happens. And you make a lot of money doing that. Well, what this guy is saying is saying, look, I'll tell you what isn't happening inside the box, but I won't tell you what is happening inside the box. And he says that by going, I can, it's an absolute fact that I was not. It's an absolute fact that I was not doing X. Well, number one, the founder, one of the founders of objectionism, objectivism, Ayn Rand said, you cannot prove a negative. In fact, you cannot be bought into court to prove a negative. Here he is going, I'm going to tell you as a fact what isn't inside the box that you can't see into. Well, that's almost impossible to argue other than the way that I've just argued it with you right now. And were you interested? Do you get it? I mean, could a jury get that? Could a jury go, oh, I see what's happening there. I mean, it's just confounding. And so at this point for me, I think there's a real stalemate on. I'm not saying that this guy is the brightest person ever, but he knows enough to cause a stalemate and cause a problem in this case. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so you guys know I'm not as sophisticated as Mark. I'm not going to talk to you about the black box. I'm going to talk to you about fencing in a pig, because this guy's got a pig to talk about here. And he's what he's going to do is by the time you get to his pig or his ugly baby or his whatever, he's going to have shown you enough beautiful things that you forget how ugly his pig is. And what he's doing with words like emphatics, all these words are absolutely in no way. And I can tell you absolutely what I did not do. He gets to very few facts right there in the middle. I didn't kill my family. So he's got lots of room to talk, lots of space there to get to those words before he actually says anything. And then on the backside, he does more of those words. So that's wrapped in this beautiful wrapper, no matter how ugly what the thing he's talking about is. Interestingly the way he goes about it, his guy asks him a question. And there's a lot of one-upmanship going on between two attorneys right here. You can't miss it. I often hear people say, this looks defensive. And I say, yeah, if that looks defensive, does that look defensive suddenly? No, because I'm looking down my nose at you. And if I'm standing over you, it's powerful. And that guy's doing it. He's looking over the thing and down his glasses at him. So there's a competition between the two of them. This guy forces the prosecutor to rephrase his question three times. Well, that's building the fence. What he's doing is building a wall around the question he's willing to answer. And when he gets down to the end, he is ready for it. And Mark, he's down now to where his shoulders are down. His hands are between his legs are somewhere down there. Chase, we talk about it all the time from fighter flight. He's created an exoskeleton, but make no mistake, he's not in full blown fighter flight. What he does, you can tell when he gets to the point he's in charge because his voice tone changes. Now I got you in my box. My pig is safe. Scott, what you got? I don't follow that. All right. His anger is coming into play here even more because his voice volume goes up, his tone is stronger, his cadence is sped up a little bit. And again, like you were saying, Greg, it's two attorneys fighting, man. They've got those glasses down looking at each other. And like I was saying earlier, Mark doesn't even use his glasses. He's not reading anything. He's not holding them up and doing that and putting them back on. He's just got them on to do that, I think. Also, let's start paying more attention to his forehead and let's see how that kneading of his brow, what's happening with that? Because we see anger there as those things come together and they push down like this. Now if we'll pay attention to his eyes as well, what's happening is when someone gets mad or they pretend they're mad at you and they frown and their eyes all squint at you, that's fine. They're not that mad. Take it from me. When someone's sitting across from me and they're getting all mad, there's a way you can look at it and say, this is real or it's fake. And what you're looking for is when they start squinting their eyes, they'll start opening them a little bit as they're squinting. It'll look like they're opening them at the same time, gives them that crazy look that you see in movies. That's what you're looking for. That's how you know somebody's really mad. Then their face is going to get all red just to go over here just for a second. Their face will get all red and it's going to go pale. When it goes pale, that's when they're coming at you. That's when their brain said, okay, we're going because all the blood is run from the face out to their muscles and their arms and legs because they're coming across the table at you or they're going to do it or they're going to do. That's what we're seeing here is the eyes are getting a little bit wide, but that's because they're squinting a little bit and we're seeing the inside part of that get wide. That's why I get that nutty look on his face. Again, when he's talking about talking on the phone, when I have to think about something, I get up and I'm one of those people that gets up and walks around in circles and talks and I get across my arms and I do this a lot when I'm thinking, I always touch my face. That's what I really think that's what he's doing in there. I think the prosecutor nailed it. I think he's in there walking around maybe not in a panic, but close to it because that's a lot of steps. It doesn't sound like a lot, 283, but in that short amount of time when you're on the phone doing that, that's what he's doing. He's walking around, deleting those phone calls, walking around in circles. I would imagine it's certain. Also at the end, he uses severity softening when he says, I would never hurt my wife or child. That's severity softening. We see that quite often when someone's done something like this, they shouldn't have and it's horrible. They won't say, I didn't kill my wife and my child or I wouldn't kill anybody. I didn't kill them. No. They say, I would never hurt them. Well, would you ever shoot them? Would you ever shoot either one of them, both of them out of the kennel? That's trying to make it sound not as bad, what he did. That's why they do that. It's a subconscious thing quite often. Sometimes it isn't. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. This morning when I was watching this, it was five AM, sun hadn't come up yet and I reset my step counter and I did 288 steps in this hotel room here and it's a lot. It took me a minute. So I just wanted to recreate it and see what that actually was like. And in this video where he says, absolutely incorrect. This is another perfect head nod with a confirmation glance to the jury and there's some severity softening. Scott, you talk about uses hurt and paired with that is psychological distancing without using the name of wife and child. He just uses wife and child doesn't say their names. So this lessens the internal feeling of severity. So like instead of steel, somebody might say take instead of murder, they might say hurt like Scott was saying there. So people who are innocent are more likely to use the more severe words to illustrate and show you the severity of what happened to their family or what happened to the victim and also the severity of what they saw, the memory that they saw if they're not the killer, they want you to understand how severe it is. Those words are more likely to come out in one area way less likely, which is why in my opinion, they're more reliable than a lot of things. And also in this sentence, no use of the victims names here. So we'll call that psychological distancing. And this is common for guilty people and I believe it might help to lessen the stress of the denial. Both of these one compounded with the other behavior we've seen just turn black. As we're seeing this, it's we're seeing a career attorney, career attorney who's lived his life using facts to win, forgetting that emotions play way more of a role in court than lots of other stuff. Would you dispute me if I said you brought it up? Did I brought up? What brought up? What Mr. Murdock, your phone phone calls to Maggie? Yes. That I brought up phone calls to Maggie to David Owens. I'm asking you, is that one of the things that you talked about in your first interview with Dave Owen? That you pulled out your phone and started looking at it that you brought that up? Do you recall that? Well, but that's not what you asked Mr. Owens. You asked me was that the first thing that I talked to him about? And that was the discrepancy. I certainly don't dispute that Mr. Owens and I talked about phone calls. But that's not what you said, so just to be clear. Well, the real reason Mr. Murdock is that you as a lawyer and prosecutor are up at 902 finally having your phone in your hand, moving around and making all these phone calls to manufacture an alibi. Is that not true? That's absolutely incorrect. So that's just another circumstance and coincidence in this particular case. Right around the time that you lied to law enforcement about maybe one of the most important facts in the case. It is an absolute fact that I am not manufacturing an alibi as you say. How do you remember so much detail about everything else? But you don't remember what you were specifically doing to generate 283 steps while you're making these all these phone calls in the same four minute period? I remember unequivocally without any doubt with as clear a mind as I could have at any time that I never manufactured any alibi in any way shape or form because I did not and would not hurt my wife and my child. So I know for a fact that I never ever ever created an alibi. Why don't you remember what you were doing when you were so busy for this four minute critical period? I do remember what I was doing. Other than I was getting ready to go. Because that's what I was doing. Well, let's keep going. You made those calls to Maggie in that four minute period. You had just seen them a few minutes ago when you say you went down there and came right back. Why didn't you just take that quick little left 1100 yards away and stop by? See why they didn't answer the call. You're obviously wanting to get in touch with them. Why didn't you go down to the kennels that were so close by? There was no reason to. I mean making multiple missed calls to Maggie and she's so close. And there's a driveway right there. Why do you not just go down there and say, Hey guys, I'm heading over there. It wasn't important to do that. Me. Me making those phone calls is simply me letting. I believe I called Maggie and I believe I called Paul. But that's simply me just letting them know that I'm leaving for a minute. I'll be back. The fact that that they don't answer. It's not unusual at all. Now it is odd. It is unusual that they never call me back. And but but at that moment, the fact that there's a missed call when I know they're on the property, I mean, that doesn't even register at all. That's perfectly normal to try to call somebody who's on the property and not be able to get them. And and as far as not going down there, there was no sense of urgency. Maggie was with Paul. You know, she should be as safe as she could be. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is in the beginning of this. We see this attorney or this prosecutor lean in doing that thing again. That's your parent berating you. That's not a questioner. That's your parents saying, Where were you tonight? I know where you were and going in at you and this guy sees it. He's got a grief muscle and a blink rate at no need. We see that grief muscle come in when he says there was no need to go in and we say that's a little horseshoe arch there in his blink rate increases as he says that, but only when he's not making eye contact. And we say that a person when they're concentrating or when they're focused on something that I that blink rate decreases when he goes back to that romance or kind of personality where he only has eyes for the prosecutor and he gets eye lock. The blink rate disappears. Really interesting. We could say that would be a prop that could be processor speed. I don't think so in this case. I think it's stress. I think he is going back to pay attention. And then his brow does a really weird thing that they didn't answer. It isn't a request for approval. It isn't a quick flex up and hold for a second and drop. There's something fleeting that crosses his brow. But does it mean anything? Don't know, but it's different than what we've seen up to now. And being a baseliner, when something is that different, I really want to poke in and I would have said, hold on, let's talk about that for a minute. I don't know what's going on in his head there, but it doesn't matter. He is adapting with one hand. As he says, not abnormal. He adapts. We say that you touch, groom, you may do any kind of repetitive behavior to release nervous energy, but it's also relaxing. And he's doing a one handed batter on deck. He's rubbing his thigh appears from what I can see. That's a way to release nervous energy. And then he gets to this. She should be as safe as possible or some words to that effect. You know, some mouth grooming thing. Well, she should be, but if your son is no longer there, then she can't be. So who knows what those words mean, but those two fleeting brow change and that mouth are really big deviations from baseline. So I want to dig in and understand why chase. What do you got? Yeah. Overall in this video, there's something missing. So we'll go back to this in every single video that we do. I'm asking one question first. So when I sit down in the morning to look at these, I only look at them about one time and I asked this one question above everything else. What's missing concealed or hidden in this clip? And in this clip and throughout the others, there's missing regret. Innocent people will almost always express regret, wishing that they could have done something differently. I wish I would have done that. There's no regret that he didn't go down there. No wish to have the chance to do it again. So this could have been avoided only just the communication of facts to support innocence here. And at the end of this clip, there's one of the hallmarks that I look for in every case. And this is called emotional dysregulation. So when he's saying she should be as safe as she could be, I think that's it. We see anger appear on the face when he's trying to show sadness to the jury. And he even turns his face to the jury when he believes the emotion is finally showing up on his face. This happens when somebody's struggling to create an emotion to be persuasive. And a lot of times when this happens, the true emotion comes out instead of the one they're trying to convey. And this shows us the difference between displaying an emotion and feeling an emotion, which is a huge point right here. That's all I got, Mark. Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Let me take you through it from my point of view. It's an interesting battle that's going on here. You get the prosecutor at the start saying, let's keep going. There's a long pause and then a tired out breath. I think that's self talk for him. I think he's saying, come on, keep going, keep going. I think he's getting tired throughout this because this is quite a battle. This is a tough character to get through to or get good answers out of as a prosecutor, because he knows how to stick that pig in the black box or whatever, wherever we're at with that one, with that one now, put lipstick on the pig and stick it in a black box, wherever we're at on that one now. And so at the start of it, I think, wow, the prosecutor is tired now. He's on his back foot here. However, he does lean forward. He does come back with a good enough barrage of questions that I think you're right, Chase. What the defendant here decides to do is drop logic or try and defeat the logic, drop that idea and go, I'll show them an emotion. And I think that's a baseline change for him. It's a baseline tactic change. I think you're absolutely right. He isn't able to conjure the emotion that he'd like to conjure. What comes forward is the true emotion and that's anger for the prosecutor. So we get targeted eyes on the prosecutor. We get a top lip, very, very tight. We get the upper teeth showing. We get a heavy brow. The brow comes down and the head drops and we get some disgust in the nose as well. Enough information there for me to say he is angry and aggressive at the prosecutor. So at the start of this little battle, I think, ah, prosecutors on the back foot, actually, it doesn't take him long to get the person on the stand there murd out on the back foot as well. So great to see that one. Scott, what have you got on this? I agree with you, Mark. And I think that happened at the beginning because he'd rehearsed this answer. I think in witness prep he was ready for it. So I think that's what happened because it's so smooth there at the beginning. Everything's just going the way it should. Plenty of illustrators. That lets us know his stress levels drop. So he looks the way he should look. Everything looks fine. But again, let's start taking a look at that brow again because in the last 40 seconds of this clip, that brow is just as smooth as a baby's bottom when you look at nothing happening and look at the things he's talking about in there when he's doing that. It shouldn't be that way. Also, when he says she was as safe as she could be, well, yeah, I think he wanted to say she's as safe as she could be, like if I was there. We know how that turned out. But I agree with you. He got him back against the wall there at the very end like that. That was good. Well, let's keep going. You made those calls to Maggie in that four minute period. You had just seen them a few minutes ago when you say you went down there and came right back. Why didn't you just take that quick little left 1100 yards away and stop by see why they didn't answer the call? You're obviously wanting to get in touch with them. Why didn't you go down to the kennels that were so close by? There was no reason to. I mean, making multiple missed calls to Maggie and she's so close. And there's a driveway right there. Why do you not just go down there and say, hey guys, I'm heading over there? It wasn't important to do that. Me. Me making those phone calls is simply me letting. I believe I called Maggie and I believe I call Paul. But that that's simply me just letting them know that I'm leaving for a minute. I'll be back. The fact that that they don't answer is not unusual at all. Now it is odd. It is unusual that they never call me back. But but at that moment, the fact that there's a missed call when I know they're on the property. I mean, that doesn't even register at all. That's perfectly normal to try to call somebody who's on the property and not be able to get them. And and as far as not going down there, there was no sense of urgency. Maggie was with Paul. You know, she should be as safe as she could be. So you're saying that you never called her and had a conversation that day, asking her to come home specifically on the night of June 7th, 2021. Maggie and I had a couple of phone conversations that day. What I'm telling you is that before she left. No, I don't believe we had a phone call about that. We may have discussed it during the phone call, but I didn't make a phone call to her to ask her to come home. I had already told her I wanted her to come home. I always wanted her to come home. You heard Marion say that too, that I always wanted Maggie with me. Maggie thought enough of it to talk about it with Marion, didn't she? The fact that I wanted her to come home? Correct. Well, sure. I mean, that's what Marion said. So you're denying that she called Maggie and specifically asked her to come home that night. I didn't make a phone call to Maggie to ask her to come home that night. I asked Maggie to come home long before she ever left. And I probably asked her again each time I talked to her, but I didn't make the phone call specifically for that as you're saying. And to be clear, I'm certain that if Maggie was certain that she was spending the night, Bubba would have been with her and probably Grady. All right, Chase, what do you got? The question was about asking her to come over that night. And the bizarre response that we're seeing here is the result of fear. If you asked yourself what's missing or concealed, just that one question. You'll get the answer of clarity or honesty. Then you might wonder why someone who clearly and obviously asked Maggie to come over would be nervous or fearful about clearly and openly saying that this is what happened. What's truly missing is his ability to comfortably say he wanted her to come over. This is a gigantic issue here. The problem is with communicating intent, which would lead us to believe there's something that he's wanting to conceal about his intention to have her come over. It's clear. It's missing. It's concealed right here. And it's playing this day in something that should otherwise be innocent. There's no other explanation for this behavior. And his complete lack of denial here just means that there's something extremely important being hidden about the intention to ask her to come to the house. Scott. All right. I'm going to talk about one thing here. First, let me define absolutist. An absolutist is someone who says every time somebody throws a quick shoulder shrug, then they're lying. Every time they scratch their nose, that means they're lying. Every time they do a specific thing, that means they're lying. There are no true deception cues and somebody does so. It doesn't mean they're lying or telling the truth. Having said that, I'm going to say most often, I think I found something here. When we see that brow furrow like that in that odd way, I think that's when he's being deceptive almost every time. I'm just going to talk about this one thing because I'm horrified I'm actually saying this. I did a whole TEDx talk on absolutism, how it bothers me. That's my soapbox. But when we're seeing this thing almost every time he's being deceptive. And I say almost every time. So make sure you pay attention to that part of it. But I think that's one of the cues of deception because as he's trying to convince that eyebrow the brow goes up like that and Greg's request for approval, but at the same time he's trying to convey that emotion of sadness. And so we get this really weird look in his brow. That's what I think is going on. That's all I'll say about that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, interesting. What you're seeing I see as well in the way I categorized it is this. Go back through this video yourself. Pay attention to when his brow furrows. When he's talking about his family, nothing, nothing, nothing. When an eyewitness comes up, all that stuff gets drawn. When you're being assaulted with a question, all that stuff gets drawn. But when he's talking about his wife, forehead's pretty smooth. We also know we have that study from British Columbia University that says that when people are being deceptive, often they'll try to show sadness in their forehead instead of it or they'll try to show grief. And what will happen is that whole frontalis muscle will contract and give you a very different approach. So it could be that. But when I pay attention to it, I wonder why is there no contraction that muscle except for when this guy is on him and bringing up this eyewitness. I think it's a confrontation between these two guys. I think part of it is because I'm a Murdoch. They started the entire thing. When it first started coming out, I think he was on the stand for nine hours. But when I first watched the very first video, he said, aren't you from a legacy of? So he's establishing this attorney established up front, you're somebody and then he disrespects him. I think we're seeing that response to the disrespect to the being pushed in the corner. I don't think it has anything to do with the people. I don't think it has anything to do with the case. I think it has to do with him. Just my opinion. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, a couple of things here that I really love about this. Number one is just how quickly things can change because in that last video, start of that, I thought the prosecutor was dead in the water. I thought like, he's going nowhere with this. He's tired. He's out. And now he's really got this guy under pressure at this point. We're seeing lots of adaption on the microphone there. Again, doesn't need there's nothing wrong with the sound. He's just trying to displace energy that's coming from the stress and pressure there. We're seeing swaying from side to side. We're seeing lots of single shrugs as well. But let's look around that to see other elements that suggest something very, very different is happening here. Look at the foot of the guy that's behind the prosecutor. I don't know who this guy is. I don't know who's side that person is on, but I'm going to assume they have a good knowledge of what's going on in the court at the moment simply because of where they're placed. I don't know who they are, what their job is, whose side they might be on or not. But I'm just assuming because of how upfront they are, they have some status there and therefore some knowledge, some intelligence of it. There is a point where the foot rises right up in the air. Now, a foot rising can mean a positive thing or a negative thing. Just as Scott says, there are no absolutes, but it's a massive change in that individual's baseline, massive change. Go back, have a look at when that foot rises and what it's around and think to yourself, why is that individual either very positive or very negative about what just happened? Because they know something has changed dramatically and there's an issue there which is either going to do well for somebody or badly for somebody. So you're saying that you never called her and had a conversation that day, asking her to come home specifically on the night of June 7th, 2021. Maggie and I had a couple of phone conversations that day. What I'm telling you is that before she left, no, I don't believe we had a phone call about that. We may have discussed it during the phone call, but I didn't make a phone call to her to ask her to come home. I had already told her I wanted her to come home. I always wanted her to come home. You heard Marion say that too, that I always wanted Maggie with me. Maggie thought enough of it to talk about it with Marion, didn't she? The fact that I wanted her to come home? Correct. Well, sure. I mean, that's what Marion said. So you're denying that you called Maggie and specifically asked her to come home that night. I didn't make a phone call to Maggie to ask her to come home that night. I asked Maggie to come home long before she ever left. And I probably asked her again each time I talked to her, but I didn't make the phone call specifically for that, as you're saying. And to be clear, I'm certain that if Maggie was certain that she was spending the night, Bubba would have been with her and probably Grady. And when you were asked by law enforcement how long you were at your mother's house, you said 45 minutes to an hour, isn't that correct? I think I said a couple of different things, but I think at one time I did say that. But routinely through this thing, I kept saying, when you get this data, you'll see exactly. When you look at my phone, you'll see exactly. So me giving the times was always given with the thought that there's own star out there, there's whatever. But when you had a conversation with Ms. Shelley after the fact, you actually asked her to say that you were there longer than 20 minutes? I heard Shelley's testimony. I believe Shelley to be a good person. I wasn't trying to influence Shelley on any particular length of time, because at the beginning of this, I believe that data would show what data would show. And for me to tell her to say something when my own star is going to show something different just doesn't make any sense. So I can't answer that. What my recollection is is that I told Shelley that law enforcement would be talking to her. We may have discussed how long I was there. At that point in time, if I thought I was there 45 minutes, I may have said I was here 45 minutes, but I can't tell you. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a really good example of what happens when a person has had a long time to be conflict and to be prepared to pitch and to defend that lie. Because what happens, and let's assume for a minute, he's telling a lie, we all have our opinions. And that's what all of this is, as Chase will often point out. But this guy is acting like his brain was operating just like it does today that night. Let's assume he did this. His brain would not be operating like it does, because we have that switch in our brain that flips us into limbic thought or cat brain. And we're going to do something that seems natural. We're going to delete phone messages. We're going to say, hey, Chase, tell people I was here for 45 minutes, we're not thinking about OnStar, we're not thinking about that kind of stuff, because our rational brain is not functioning, our protective brain is functioning. So what you should know is that likely if he did this, he would not have thought of all those pieces, no matter how much he knows, because your rational brain is not engaged. I knew that. There's an interesting piece, when he says I knew that, and he starts to go into this stuff about OnStar and car data and that, watch his blink rate. This is the first time he's had hard eye contact with the guy and blinked like crazy. That's a baseline deviation, which tells you something that he's keenly aware that's not happening. And then he attacks the witness. I mean, those of you who aren't Southern might not understand when I said, I know she's a fine woman, but whether he said but or not, he just said, but that was passive aggressive language for I'm questioning whether or not she is being above board and that I'll leave it at that and say chase what you get. Yep, I agree with you. When innocent people are lied about, they get pissed off universally. And there's almost no exception to this. Guilty people have one major thing in common that's so predictable that it's almost a rule. They have a very hard time calling somebody a liar if that person is telling the truth. And innocent people will clearly, confidently and comfortably call a lie a lie. His inability to say that's a lie should be scary here. And then he refers to the entire murder and the investigation as this thing, which I thought was extremely unusual. And I think what's interesting here is that we've seen no desire in every single clip for him to clear his name as fast as possible and move on so the perpetrator can be caught. No suggestion that the police should be looking elsewhere and guilty people will very commonly fear telling the police to look elsewhere or find out who did this out of a fear of attracting attention because that's an attention attractor to do that. And I'll just leave it at that, Scott. All right. At the beginning, he's showing lots of cues of discomfort because he's adjusting that microphone. He's moving around. He's doing his glasses. He's squirming around his seat. And he looks around his brows furrowed again. And he starts using these stiff illustrators. And he starts turtling at the same time. Something's up here. This his anger, of course, is growing again. He's getting stressed again, but there's something else going on in there. And with the second answer that he gives, he starts to swaying from side to side as he goes for that microphone again. Then we see him turn in a couple of those short shoulder shrugs as well. So I think what's happening here is he's blending the truth with a lie as you do in these situations because some things we know happen and some things we don't know what happened, but he's blending those together to make his story. And I think that's why we're seeing all this odd behavior and that we're seeing the truth and then deception butted up against each other. And I think that's fantastic seeing that and understanding what that is. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I think there's a real transition point here in terms of what he's now relying on for his tactic around this. Again, I think the prosecutor has now really got him on a bit of a back foot here. It's really excellent the way it's gone because I just wouldn't have seen it going this way. Now, why do I think this? Well, just as you say, Scott, the anger is building again. We're seeing those adaptions. We're seeing that swaying from side to side, everything that you mentioned right there. But we also get him saying, look, the data will show what the data shows. Well, that's not via negative. He's now moved from the via negative of like, well, I don't remember and we don't know. And, you know, I'm going to tell you it's this to look, look at the data and look at what that shows. Well, we know that there's a bit of a lack of data around this. So he's on a good foot there, but simply from moving from negative to positive as a tactic, I think that means he's being forced into a change, not he's choosing to change here. So I'm interested to see where this goes. If the prosecution can keep up this pressure and get him somewhere. And when you were asked by law enforcement, how long you were at your mother's house, you said 45 minutes to an hour, isn't that correct? I think I said a couple of different things. But I think at one time, I did say that. But, you know, routinely through this thing, I kept saying, you know, when you get this data, you'll see exactly when you look at my phone, you'll see exactly when you do, you know, so, you know, me giving the times was always given with the thought that, okay, there's own star out there. There's whatever. Well, when you had a conversation with Ms. Shelley after the fact, you actually asked her to say that you were there longer than 20 minutes. You know, I heard Shelley's testimony. I believe Shelley to be a good person. I wasn't trying to influence Shelley on any particular length of time, because at the beginning of this, I believe that data would show what data would show. And for me to tell her to say something when my own star is going to show something different just doesn't make any sense. So, you know, I can't answer that. What my recollection is is that I told Shelley that law enforcement would be talking to her. We may have discussed how long I was there. At that point in time, if I thought I was there 45 minutes, I may have said I was here 45 minutes, but you know, I can't tell you that block of testify to that you talked to her about the clothes that you were wearing. It made her uncomfortable. Correct. Ask that question again. It's similar to your conversation with block of that she testified about when you talked to her about the clothes that you were supposedly wearing, what made her feel uncomfortable. Do you remember that testimony, sir? What's similar to that? Well, that you're talking to both of these individuals about their testimony in a manner that's inconsistent with what they know. No, I don't I don't think I don't I don't think your assertion is accurate. You have to understand this on August the 11th. When I went to meet with David Owens. And in that, David Owens asked me about he showed me that Snapchat and asked me about clothes that I had on. And shortly after that, the next time I was with Blanca. I asked Blanca about those clothes, because David Owens had asked me about it was making it made an issue about it. And so I checked with Blanca to see what what I specifically asked Blanca. And it was an issue to me. So I got Blanca and I said, I need you to sit down and talk with me about this. This is important. Do you remember my clothes when you came to Moselle that day? And she remembered exactly what she testified to. She remembered that my pants were there. She wasn't sure if the shirt was there. At that time, I think she actually thought the shirt was there, but she was clear that she wasn't sure about that. But no, no, she wasn't unsure. But she didn't remember. But assume that it was so that was the conversation that and why I was asking Blanca. Or again, you're very specific about your memories of that conversation. Is that correct, Mr. Murdoch? You're dang right. I'm consistent about that because a very short time before that, David Owens is asking me questions and telling me I'm a suspect in the murder of my wife and my child and asking me about my clothes, you're dang right it was important. And you're dang right I remember what why I went to hurt and for what reason. The only thing you're concerned about is yourself. You're not concerned about giving accurate information to law enforcement. Correct. What's the reason for that, Mr. Murdoch? Why don't you want to give accurate information to law enforcement? Why do you want to talk to these women who both are employed by you or your family and try to influence what they were going to say? I did want to give law enforcement accurate information. I told a lie about being down there. And I got myself wet to that. But I wanted to give them as much I knew that I hadn't done this. And I wanted to give them as much accurate information as I could. But the reason I went to Blanca is specifically because David Owens talking to me on August the 11th. Greg, what do you got? All right. So I got a ton of stuff on this one only because I just sent watching he's bleeding everywhere you turn. First of all outright pause is the guy asked him a question. He gets to it's almost like he's saying this is a hard one. He starts to parse words and these are two lawyers going at it. But he's adapting when he's doing it. And he's turtling. He's getting smaller and smaller and smaller. He does clothes grooming. I'm not going to go in order. I'm just going to tell you everything I see. He grooms his clothing. He does all kinds of adapting. And we say grooming, clothing and all that. We mean the person's releasing nervous energy in some way and they get accustomed to doing that over the years and they become habitual for them often. So for example, like I was in front of an audience all the time they straighten his clothes may do that kind of thing. When he gets to talking about David Owens, boom, boom, boom, boom, that blank rate goes up. This is when he was called in and the first time they asked him out loud in a police interrogation room, did you kill your wife and son? So his blank rate goes up and he looks down into his right, which we associate with emotion. One of those few things that we see pretty consistently among all people. Now his cadence shift starts to go and he's navigating language as he tries to speak. And as he's attacked about asking this employee, you see him then do the request for approval as he's talking, as he's telling you why he did it and all those kinds of things. We see that request for approval up. Let's see. He does a lip compression and emotional control at one place when he says you talked to her about what and then he goes back to that covering himself up in the fact that I've made myself into this martyr because I did lie. I'm wed to that lie using powerful language about I've told you I lied about that night. That's the only lie I've told and there's a place at the very end where he actually adapts for one of the more powerful things as he touches his face for the first time as he's closing this out. Guys, we don't know what a person's thinking. What we can tell you is when we see all this deviation from what's normal, something else is going on their head. So when he's telling go all the way back to the beginning video, when he's telling and hopping along like a little rabbit, one thing's going on. But the minute his brain starts to stutter and he starts to change his speech pattern, and we see adapters and we see him pulling back and wrapping himself in all of his good glory that he's done something good by telling you that he lied and he's telling you about all of his sins. What we're seeing here is a person now getting back into the corner. I think, Mark, you've talked about last time this guy's got him back in the ropes to back to back eyewitnesses. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, couldn't agree more. Just like three videos ago, I thought the prosecutor was dead in the water. I thought this guy's dining mess will walk out now. He's he's now got this guy this this defendant is now doing full improvisation. I think I don't think he's rehearsed any elements of this certainly put together in this. It's an absolute dog's dinner of a story going on here. Absolutely right. Greg, we got the we get the glasses coming off as well. That's a break from the baseline as well. There's the blink rate is going right up all the other things that you've mentioned there. He's now using he would do the mic adaption there, but he's now using that to break eye contact and look at the mic. So he's using that as more of a barrier a shield so he can have a break from it. I think it's fascinating what's what's happening here and I'm fascinated to see where it goes because I'm kind of hopeful about it. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right. At that first question, we see him lean back a little bit and this can indicate a couple of things. It can indicate he doesn't understand what's happening or he feels like it's aggressive and it's kind of hitting them weird, but he did he but I think he doesn't understand the question. I think it's a combination of I think he doesn't understand it and it sort of takes him a back a little bit as it hits him. Then we're seeing cues of aggression as his head comes forward and his eyes lock on the prosecutor. So I think you're I think you're right about that mark. He's he's getting a little bit worried at this point. Then he grabs the mic and he pulls on he starts fidgeting around a little bit. Then he takes his glasses off and his vocal tone gets a little bit louder and a little bit more harsh. So you nail all that stuff as well from what I'm seeing too. And then as when check this out when he's talking to the jury, he turns toward the jury as they're to his right when he's being all emotional when he's when he's crying and stuff, he's cognizant enough in there to go, okay, I need to let the jury see me being emotional. So that's another thing that bugs me about this guy. The only time he turns toward them hard is when he's being all emotional. But when he's being angry, he fully turns toward the prosecutor. Now watch when he's being emotional and deal with the prosecutor at the same time. He'll he'll walk his head just he'll just go back far enough just so they can still see his face and he'll track him with his eyes like that predator look we saw earlier. And he'll track him like that the prosecutor. Otherwise he's wanting the the jury to see his emotion and how sad he is about everything, which is I'm under the impression is fake as well. Then you're right, Greg, he grabs that his face and scratches on that to get rid of some of that built up stress and tension. I think I think he's he's stressed here. He's worried because he's gotten back in the corner, but at the same time he's trying to pay attention to what's happening emotionally that he's supposed to be showing the jury. So I think let's start paying attention to where he's aiming when he's emotional because we're going to see that coming to play again here in a few minutes. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, and in cases like this where there's limited emotional expression and there's minimal behavior cues, you can kind of just default to the analysis of what's missing left out or concealed. So with the questions he's being asked, the attorney picks up very specific points. So which of these points is being concealed? Let's take a look. Number one, refusal to call somebody a liar or express that their testimony is inaccurate or false. Next is a refusal to discuss even having made these women uncomfortable, which is part of the question. Next is a refusal to discuss their testimony. And if it's false, it would take center stage, by the way. If their testimony was false, he would have made it center stage. Next is a refusal to discuss or even mention the attempt to influence these women's testimony. So these bits of concealment paint a gigantic red arrow in a certain direction. They come together to point collectively toward one, what I think is a scary potential conclusion here. In just this clip alone, you can see how if you're able to just go through a clip and only spot what's being concealed or left out, all of those items become a voice or an arrow that guide you precisely to what questions to ask or what happened in the situation in question. That block had testified to that you talked to her about the clothes that you were wearing and made her uncomfortable, correct? Ask that question again. It's similar to your conversation with Blanca that she testified about when you talked to her about the clothes that you were supposedly wearing, what made her feel uncomfortable. Do you remember that testimony, sir? What's similar to that? Well, that you're talking to both of these individuals about their testimony in a manner that's inconsistent with what they know. No, I don't think your assertion is accurate. You have to understand this on August the 11th, when I went to meet with David Owens and in that David Owens asked me about, he showed me that Snapchat and asked me about clothes that I had on. And shortly after that, the next time I was with Blanca, I asked Blanca about those clothes because David Owens had asked me about them and it was made an issue about it. And so I checked with Blanca to see what I specifically asked Blanca and it was an issue to me. So I got Blanca and I said, I need you to sit down and talk with me about this. This is important. Do you remember my clothes when you came to Moselle that day? And she remembered exactly what she testified to. She remembered that my pants were there. She wasn't sure if the shirt was there. At that time, I think she actually thought the shirt was there, but she was clear that she wasn't sure about that. But no, no, she wasn't unsure, but she didn't remember, but assumed that it was. So that was the conversation that and why I was asking Blanca. Again, you're very specific about your memories of that conversation. Is that correct, Mr. Murdoch? You're dang right. I'm consistent about that because a very short time before that, David Owens is asking me questions and telling me I'm a suspect in the murder of my wife and my child and asking me about my clothes. You're dang right. It was important. It was important, right? And you're dang right. I remember what, why I went to her and for what reason. Because the only thing you're concerned about is yourself. You're not concerned about giving accurate information to law enforcement. Correct. What's the reason for that, Mr Murdoch? Why don't you want to give accurate information to law enforcement? Why do you want to talk to these women who both are employed by you or your family and try to influence what they're going to say? I did want to give law enforcement accurate information. I told a lie about being down there and I got myself wed to that. But I wanted to give them as much. I knew that I hadn't done this and I wanted to give them as much accurate information as I could. But the reason I went to Blanca is specifically because David Owens talking to me on August the 11th. You got out of the car according to what you told law enforcement repeatedly and went and checked the bodies, correct? Before you called 9-1-1, is that correct? No sir, that's not correct. You're saying you didn't say that to law enforcement? I don't know what I said to law enforcement, Mr Waters, but I can tell you this. I pulled up and I saw an accident fall, fall. I jumped out of that car. I know that I went back to my car and I called 9-1-1 as quickly as I could. That point in time when I got on the phone then is when I went to them and did the things that I did. What you're saying is not accurate. You're saying that you didn't say very specifically to law enforcement that you went to them prior to calling 9-1-1? When? After you got out of the car, you told law enforcement repeatedly that you went over and checked the bodies before you called 9-1-1. If I did say that, I don't believe that's accurate. Did I check Maggie and Paul before I called 9-1-1? That's not accurate. At least that's not what I remember. That's not what you remember saying or that's not what you say now happened? No, that's not what I believe happened. Okay, but you don't deny that's what you said. Did I check Maggie and Paul before I called 9-1-1? I don't believe that's what I said. Yeah, I know I checked them, but I don't believe I checked them before I called 9-1-1 because I can pretty well remember vividly. When I checked Paul, Paul, I was already on the phone with 9-1-1. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'll keep this one short. We see grief muscle for the first time and he goes down the well. What I call down the well is when you pull up a motion to make you teary eyed and that kind of thing. I can't tell if they're tears. I don't see any. Maybe it's just me. I don't even see like a snotty nose. I see kind of a little bit of red in his nose, a little bit of that kind of stuff. When you ask, he starts then to push and corral the question in a way that he gets to answer what he wants to answer. And once he gets back to that topic where he's comfortable responding, you see all that tearing and all that stuff dry up. One of my best indicators of persons crying or trying to cry is people who cry have interrupted breath. His respiration is up and not interrupted. I would be like, okay, let's just wait this one out because he's going to come right back to normal and I don't see it as that. There's also no heavy swallowing. We associate with crying. As we say, no snotty nose. I'll just leave it at that and say, I think what this guy is doing is he's trying to prey on that emotional piece. This is all at the end of the day after establishing a shadow of a doubt. And if he is in grief and all of that, then people may have a shadow of a doubt. Look, this guy's told us all of his qualms, all the things he's done wrong, all of his weaknesses. I think we're still playing down that show and I don't see what looks like real crime to me could be wrong. Scott, what do you get? I think this is interesting because he's trying to conjure up emotion, that emotion to grief. And that's what those mouth noises are about and the mouth grooming. That's what that's all about. Then he calls his wife, Mags, and his son, Paul, Paul. Up to this point, I think he's called her Mags and called him Paul. These are these little endearing terms of affection that people use to make the jury feel sorry for him, feel more empathetic for what they're going through because, oh, he called them these cute little sweet little names. That's what he's doing there, calling those names. And notice when he does call them that. It's always in this big emotional thing as he's facing the jury. So let's still keep an eye on when he's going back and forth emotionally with the jury. And then watch how fast that fake expression of emotion goes away, how fast it disappears. And then when that thing disappears, watch how fast he turns back to the prosecutor and can track him better without having to worry about showing emotion to the jury. That's all I'll say on that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, let me put a little litmus test on whether this might be real crying or not real crying. And you do this for yourselves as well. So just so you know, in most personality tests, I will rank very, very low in empathy, very, very high in analysis, which means that I can somebody might be having an emotion. And I'm not likely to feel that emotion. I'm likely to be able to go, look, I think this emotion is happening, because here's what I see happening. That doesn't mean I'm not emotion. I'm emotionless. Of course, I have emotions. And so the thing is, is that if it's a real emotion and a big powerful emotion, usually that will affect me. And that's a good litmus test for me, because I think, well, normally, I'd be quite analytical about this, but I'm actually feeling a lot of empathy for this person. Chances are this is absolute real emotion. Why? Because real emotions that are strong are designed to get action out of other human beings immediately. And so I'm a social human being. So emotions work on me, even though in personality tests, I will rank pretty low. Here's how I come out of this display with this person. I feel absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing. And I could go into the analysis of what's not right, just as Greg was saying there, the breathing is not right, you know, the skin tone isn't right, there's so much analytically isn't right. But if that were a real strong emotion about seeing your your family dead, I would feel that and I rank super low on empathy, but I would have empathy for that. I got zero empathy, probably means it's not it's not the real thing. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, you're saying that the mouth grooming is off the charts here. We tend to do this to improve our appearance and we do it's unconscious. And if it's done during deception, the brain does everything it can do to improve the appearance of the lie or the person during the lie. So mouth grooming, especially when you see a spike of mouth grooming behavior like this one is one of the hallmarks that we tend to see, especially when it's isolated from all the other behaviors, meaning they don't do it all the time. So this mouth grooming is not in his baseline behavior at all. And he starts reorienting his body to the jury in a way that's almost like a prank TV show. Like somebody trained him like every time you feel emotion, you have to turn to that jury. And he's probably been telling people to do this for a long time. I have no doubt that he's been doing that. And he thinks it works. And he shifts before the emotions begin. So before he thinks the emotions are ready for display, then he turns to the jury and his eye contact to the prosecution after the during the question is now locked on while he's trying to display sadness at the same time his blink rate drops to zero during this point, which is an extreme indicator of focus. So which if tears were in his eyes, this would be hard to do to drop your blink rate like this is an indicator of extreme focus and attention. The sadness somehow goes away for all the key parts of the story. Every key part, the entire expression and everything about sadness disappears. And he becomes just emotionless. And sadness kind of goes away. And when somebody's being truthful and can't remember something, they tend to say one thing almost every single time. If they're being truthful and can't remember, they say, I don't remember. He makes an attempt at saying I don't remember, but the moment he's pressed on it, you'll see that he breaks down. He realizes that the strategy is not working. And when you press a truthful person, they will continue saying they don't know. You know why? Because they don't know. You got out of the car according to what you told law enforcement repeatedly and went and checked the bodies, correct? Before you called 911? Is that correct? No, sir. That's not correct. You don't you're saying you didn't say that to law enforcement? I don't know what I said law enforcement is for orders, but I can tell you this. I pulled up and I saw an agent fall off. I jumped out of that car. I knew that I went back to my car and I called 911 as quickly as I could. That point in time when I got on the phone then is when I went to them and did the things that I did. What you're saying is not accurate. You're saying that you didn't say very specifically the law enforcement that you went to them prior to calling 911? When? After you got out of the car, you told law enforcement repeatedly that you went over and checked the bodies before you called 911? No, I don't. If I did say that, I don't believe that's accurate. Did I check Maggie and Paul before I called 911? Correct. No, sir. That's not that's not accurate. At least that's not what I remember. That's not what you remember saying or that's not what you say now happens. No, that's not what that's not what I believe happened. Okay, but you don't deny that's what you said. Did I said did I check Maggie and Paul before I called 911? Correct. I don't believe that's what I said. Yeah, I know I checked them, but I don't believe I checked them before I called 911 because I can pretty well remember vividly when I checked Paul Paul. I was already on the phone with 911. I saw them and I know I jumped out of my car. But I believe that before I checked them, in fact, I'm almost certain that then I went back and I got my that's when I went and got my phone and I called 911. And then after I called 911, they I mean, there was a little while where there wasn't. I don't think there was anything going on. And I believe that that is the time period that I went and checked on them. What you're saying here today now that we have this data, that's not exactly how you expressed it the law enforcement in your prior statements. Is that correct? No, sir, I disagree with that. I totally disagree with that, Mr. Waters. Will you point to what you're talking about? All right, Chase, what do you got? Don't believe. These are two words we do not use to describe facts like ever. And you hear it all the time in here. I don't believe I made a decision to lie. Such a great line. I want to get that on a bumper sticker somewhere. I don't believe that I was lying at that point. That's a direct quote here. I don't believe that I was lying at that point. And he says, I don't believe it was a lie. So. And he said later in this video, he says, my dear friend chief Alexander gave him some piece of advice to do something. This is borrowing credibility, borrowing authority from from another person. And his eyebrows are constantly raised. And I think this is his innocence behavior. And he's learned to display this to appear innocent. You can even see it in the body cam footage when he's communicated to the officer and he wants to appear innocent and blatant. And this nodding that he's doing at the end, we saw in the first video he did when he was in the police car. We saw it many times throughout the trial. We saw it twice on the body cam footage. He does this every time that he's uncertain and wants to appear comfortable. And he does it precisely at these moments that he's offering up something that's not very credible and wants people to accept it just so far as I've seen in my opinion. Mark. Yeah. Yeah. So another reason for me, it feels like this is not true feeling that he's creating here or or emoting here and that it's conjured up and conjured up badly is in my experience of helping performers all over the world at some incredibly high levels deliver emotions is when they're real, when they get them for real, they come so fast and powerful that the actor forgets to hide themselves. And what happens when emotions come and they're not quite right. They're not good enough. The actor feels disappointed in them that that it's not really true. It's not quite right. And they'll put their head into shade as you're seeing there with his head. They'll hide their eyes because they don't want to show you like this is not really top quality gold emotion. Don't don't watch the whole of my face. You'll see how false this is. There's not a it's not that there's not a pride in it. It's just when real emotion comes, it happens so fast that you don't have a moment to socially hide yourself later on in the emotion when you might feel embarrassed about that motion or emotional worried about it or it's stressful for you or the other people later on you might start some hiding behaviors. But right early on, in my experience, people don't he hides his feelings right from the start. And that's because I think he knows that they're not good enough. It's not a good performance. It isn't the gold that he's hoping to deliver to the jury at this point. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, just a handful of things, but all powerful. One is you hear that that blow out that breath. I learned a new term from our friend Rodney Smith this week. Maybe you guys all know it from polygraph. I didn't descending staircase breathing. I always just said controlled breathing. But Rodney is an investigator for North Carolina. And he explains a polygraph and he explained that to me is one of the things he looked for. I was just said catch up breathing. You know, I've been sitting there controlling my breathing. People exasperated or they're trying to catch up. They blow out air. I didn't see when he starts down this whole thing, he blows that out and the grief muscle disappears. Now we're still talking about finding your child. But now we're talking about something else. We're talking about whether I said that or not. He gets really polite. He gets good eye lock and he follows the guy across the room as the guy walks away. Powerful. You can't miss it. And Chase, I am dead on with you. I don't believe. We should have a t-shirt that says I don't believe I committed a lie. We could do something like that. I ran construction for years and I was telling my people church words like hope, feel and believe are church words. They're not thinking words. They're not, I did not do this. I think this. I evaluated and but we get, he does that. The other thing that we notice here is he is getting smaller and smaller and he doesn't just turtle. He puts the top of his skull toward this prosecutor more than one time. If that's not feeling defeat, if you don't see something creeping in that we know that he's starting to feel the pressure of two eyewitnesses and you lied to the police and the thing that you told us you didn't and you're getting caught in words, I don't know what it takes. Scott, what do you got? All right. Mine's going to be super short. He grabs the mic again and he turns, he turns toward the jury again and he shows all this. He's doing all that weird mouth grooming stuff at the top and he's just getting, it's just getting weird, but there are no tears and there's like you're saying, Greg, there's no snuff. So this is all just fake. And then once he gets that done and delivers all that, you see that emotion almost completely disappear. There's again, there's no sniffing. There's no Kleenex. He's, remember, he's had that Kleenex before. He was goofing around with it. We never really used it in the court. Some of the court things he did use it, but he just kept rubbing his nose with it and that's why his nose is already at some points because he just kept sticking this Kleenex up his nose and pushing it around. But nothing, but it was the same one the whole time. He never changed. It was gross. If it had been real, it'd been really gross, but I think it was fake. So it was just, ugh. I saw them and I know I jumped out of my car, but I believe that before I checked them, in fact, I'm almost certain. Then I went back and I got my, that's when I went and got my phone and I called 911. And then after I called 911, they, I mean, there was a little while where there wasn't, I don't think there was anything going on. And I believe that that is the time period that I went and checked on them. What you're saying here today, now that we have this data, that's not exactly how you expressed it, the law enforcement in your prior statements, is that correct? No, sir, I disagree with that. I totally disagree with that, Mr. Waters. Will you point to what you're talking about? I just want to be clear though, at least on this one, at some point during this interview, when you were able to plan your lie about this event, and you made that decision, but it wasn't what we just played. It wasn't yet. It was some point after that. I don't think that's a lie right there, is the reason why I don't think that it's occurred before this, because what I'm saying there, I believe to be truthful. And I know this, I know for a fact that when David Owens asked me about my relationship with my wife and my child, I noted that played a role in that. And I believe that, and I may be wrong, but I believe that this was before that. You ever heard the expression, not telling the whole truth is the same as telling the lie? Sure I have. That's something you understood as a lawyer and a prosecutor? Yes. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, just one thing. I just love that idea. I don't think that's a lie. I think that's fantastic. Put in the notes down below, put in the discussion down below if you really do fancy a t-shirt on that or anything else. I will mock it up for you. I'll put it up there. We'll make it as cheap as possible if we can. If you want that or any other, stick that in the notes below and let's get it done. I don't think that was a lie. Chase, what do you got on this one? Let's do one more. What I'm saying there, I believe to be truthful. That's a good one. And this is just more lawyer speak and truthful people just don't do this. And right as he's speaking about the question about his relationship with the victims, he pulls his jacket closed, which we call barrier creation. And as he's doing that, Zoom's trying to give me a thumbs up emoji right now. Did it earlier for you? It did it earlier. It actually got one up there for some reason. I don't know how. All right. And then there's a confirmation glance and a pause. So we call it a confirmation glance and a pause to ensure that he's being listened to. And Scott, I'm going to go along with this. And I'm glad you brought this up first because I had this in my notes. I'd like to present a case for absolutes, but only one, a short one. And I'll use you as an example, Scott. If I ask Scott, if anybody in his neighborhood is making drugs in their house and he says, not to the best of my knowledge, or I don't believe so, those answers could be factual and truthful. But if I ask Scott, if he is making drugs in his house and his answer is not to the best of my knowledge, or I don't believe so, those answers are absolutely ridiculous. So the responses are the same, but the context is different. And I think this is why a checklist is only as good as the person's ability to determine contextual relevance. And that's all I've got. Greg? Yeah. So a few things. He's adapting like all hell. I mean, everything is coming up to adapt. Now you're right. I think the barrier, but it's also a grooming appearance thing. So he's trying to look better as he's talking. Listen to his words. I don't think that's a lie. I believe, but he knows for a fact one thing. He goes, I don't believe that's a lie. I don't think that's a lie. I believe, I believe I know for a fact that when he asked me the question about my relationship with Paul and Maggie is when I decided like, well, guess who else knows for a fact that we knew that for a fact. Go back and watch the first video. We all red flagged on him about that. I in fact said, this is my favorite clip of all time because you get to see real baseline between wonderful and wonderful. So go back and watch it because all those red flags we saw through those video in the car are showing up now that he's actually telling you with his own mouth that that's when he decided to lie. Now, is he telling the truth? Hard to tell with this guy. I lied, I lied, I lied. Please believe me. I lied. Scott, what do you got? Yeah. And I think he's doing that. I lied, I lied, I lied thing because he's trying to show that now he's stopped all the lying. He's being honest. I think he's trying that that big reverse on everybody. I don't think it's gonna hopefully it won't take. I don't think it'll take. But this is the up to this point. This is the loudest and most animated he's been. You're right, Greg. He's all over the place. So far, this is he's almost like a cartoon. His blink rates through the roof is he's editing and arranging everything. He's looking around thinking and talking. And all this is on the fly like Mark was saying earlier. He's just he's just going for it, man. And some of these things. And again, like Jonah Varro says, you can have a poker face, but you can't have a poker body. And as hard as he tries to keep all that in and looks like he's telling the truth, it's not working at all. Not even a little bit, in my opinion. I just want to be clear, though, at least on this one, it's some point during this interview when you were able to plan your lie about this event. And you made that decision. It wasn't what we just played. It wasn't yet. It was some point after that. I don't think that's a lie right there is the reason why I don't think that it's occurred before this. Because what I'm saying there, I believe to be truthful. And I know, I know this, I know for a fact that when David Owens asked me about my relationship with my wife and my child, I noted that played a role in that. And I believe that, and I may be wrong, but I believe that this was before that. You ever heard the expression not telling the whole truth is the same as telling the lie? Sure, I have. That's something you understood as a lawyer and a prosecutor? Yes. All right, Mark, so far, what do you think we've been seeing here? What do you got? So far, this is a great lesson for me in it's not over until it's over. I thought that prosecutor was done halfway through this. He's back. He's doing a great job on a really hard candidate here. So just fantastic to see somebody on the ropes. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. I just wish he would have nailed him down on the non-answer questions a little bit more. But this video is a masterclass in determining deception in trained deposition experts. It's full of all the hallmarks that you would look for in depo experts, hesitancy, psychological distancing, severity softening, non-answers, chronology, pronoun absence, ambiguity, politeness, many confessions, exclusions, qualifiers, chronological discrepancies. If you wanted a checklist of what to look for when a politician's being questioned, that's it. You're welcome. I'll do it. Yeah, it's been trying to give you one of those all day, Chase, so you should get it. So I'm not going to add to the list that Chase had. I'm just going to say, look, this guy is prepped. This guy has prepared himself. It doesn't matter how much you prepare yourself. You can de-conflict your story as much as you want to. And when you get right up to someone else who has thought of other details you haven't, then you're going to bleed information to your, you can't have a poker body. What happens is I've got this perfect story until you start poking. And oh, and then Bobby and Susie said this, oh, well, now I got to deal with that. So we're seeing him dealing with that de-conflict on the fly instead of having time to go back, sit in this hotel room, make up new details and come. That creates a really different autonomic response in the body. And the reason we say this is because stress is what we're looking for and clusters of stressful behavior that deviating the baseline mean that we're seeing something going on in the person's head. Can't read his mind, but it's not looking good. Scott, what are you seeing to this point? So far, I think we've seen everything that we always talk about pretty much when you see everything from blooping to editing to you name it. And we've pretty much seen it. If you go through this again, you'll learn so much if you go to the very beginning and watch it through the whole video because we cover everything in this one. So I think it's a great study to see all the things we talk about and the people and the panelists who've been watching this long are going to be able to go through and just knock these out as they watch the first time. And then of course, watch it again so you can get that locked in your brain as we go through. All right, fellas, I think this was another good one and we'll see you next time. So what do you got? Today, we're going to talk about Alex Murdock and Greg, we're going to talk about the videos we're going to watch. Yeah, so these videos are from right after the police showed up to the murder of his wife and son. So just start the top, take your time. Like when I came back here, I mean, I pulled up and I could see him and, you know, I knew something was bad. I ran out. I knew it was really bad. My boy over there, I could see it was and I could see it over to Maggie. Actually, I think I tried to turn Paul over first. You know, I tried to turn him over and I don't know, I figured it out. His cell phone popped out of his pocket. I started to try to do something with it, thinking maybe, but then I put it back down really quickly. Then I went to my wife and I mean, I could see. Did you touch Maggie at all? I did. I touched them both. I tried to take, I mean, I tried to do it as limited as possible, but I tried to take their pulse on both of them. All right, Chase, what do you got? Immediately as this clip starts, he's apparently just found his family who'd been killed. Instead of grief or sadness or even confusion, we're seeing full body fear. And all I'm going to do is break down the first 18 seconds of this video. I think it's a minute and a half, two minutes long. That's all I'm going to do here. So let's go over what the fear does to the body just really quick. The first thing is these muscles right here, the sternocleidomastoid muscles, they jump out in front of the carotid artery and you'll see it when somebody has that expression. You go watch a compilation on YouTube, people getting the crap scared out of them. You'll see that. Then the shoulders come up. Then the humorous bones come in toward the body and there's a natural tendency to protect the wrists and other joints by bringing them either closer together or closer towards the body, facing away as much as possible from a potential predator. Many times, the lower limbs will move toward the groin. So like the arms in men and covering the uterus area in women, although I think there's some difference here in the genital protection. It's more likely to be during three key moments when you see genital protection in your future. It's when someone is feeling vulnerable, threatened or insecure. Those are the typical three times that you'll see genital protection. The rib cage lowers down slightly. So you see his posture go down. We don't have bones protecting the soft organs in our belly. So this forward crunch is almost a way to bring those bones in front of those soft organs. Then the muscles in the body during fear become more rigid. It makes the overall human being more hard to attack. And keep in mind, this is an analysis of the first 1.5 seconds of the video. Right after this, he says, my boy over there, I could see, I could see, I saw, keep in mind as you go through all these clips, the difference in someone telling you versus selling you. So what's the difference between I could see my ball on the ground and my boy was on the ground? One of them is an experience and one of them, someone is telling you a story. So as you watch these, keep in mind that someone who has done something potentially like this will often just show feelings of regret or shame or loss or sadness. So being the killer does not make you immune to sadness or crying or anything like that. And finally, when a dramatic event happens and somebody asks what happened, people who are innocent almost never default to chronologically telling you step by step the details of precisely what happens. And their internal motivation to make decisions is never explained. I did this because of this and because of that. This is the most red flags I've seen in one video in a long time. And I promise I won't go this long on the rest of Scott. What do you got? All right, go as long as you want, dude. That's good stuff. I want to pay attention to three things as we're going through these videos. Number one, let's pay attention to like what Chase was talking about the growing protection. Number two, his blink rate. And number three, that Kleenex he's got because well, we'll get into that in a few minutes, but let's pay attention to those things. The first time we see his cry face kick in, it disappears instantly. And the second time it kicks in, it lasts a little bit longer, but it goes away not really fast, but fairly fast. And there are no tears. Now, when something like this has happened, when somebody's just seen their wife and one of their children dead, they're going to be crying. There's going to be a whole lot going on. He wipes his face like he's wiping tears. We don't see the head shakes, no, is quite often when someone has seen something like that, or they've been even told something like that horrible, that horrible has happened. They'll sit there and they'll rock back and forth a little bit and they'll be doing this. They'll be shaking their head. No, because they don't understand why this happened. We see no grief in the grief muscle up here. We see no knitting of the brow. So many things are missing from that. His voice after this initial engagement where it looks like he's laughing and everybody's crying goes back to normal. His cadence goes back to normal. His voice tone and volume go back to normal. His diction is spot on. Everything goes back to just like you would if everything was just fine. Then he straightens out his Kleenex, but he doesn't use it. And this is going to be part of his show as he goes through. Part of the one that uses it as an adapter a couple of times, but he just goofs around with it. So he gets a little bit loud with that performance of the Kleenex and then it starts going away. It starts getting quieter. And quite often when a person has experienced something like this that's so horrible, their eyes will be fairly wide. His aren't really wide. His mouth, their mouths will be open. Their eyes are going to be red and their hands are going to be together. They're going to be like rubbing them or clasping them and wringing their hands because they don't understand why some horrible has happened and their brain is just like, hey man, let's not freak out here. So they'll be rubbing their hands together. We don't see any of that. Nothing. And I'll leave it there. There's so much there. I can go up for two years. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. I mean, we could talk for an hour on just this one alone. It's bonkers. So I'm just going to tell you one thing. A gesture that really stood out to me, which I rarely see anywhere else than in a Michelin-starred kitchen. And that is the gesture of finishing salt. When you put finishing salt over something, when he cries, here's something I've never seen anybody crying do, to put their hands up here and then rub their fingers together to see if they've got tears or not, to see if there's any wet. Go back, take a look. His hand goes up and then you see him do this. It's bizarre. That alone, that alone because it's an outlier in anything that I've ever seen anywhere in the world. So that alone causes me, well, other than, you know, at a really nice restaurant, you know, and sometimes they'll do it from a height as well if they want to be really fancy about it. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. So that alone for me causes me to go, okay, there's something going on here because I've never seen that gesture anywhere before. And certainly, why do you need to check if you've got tears or not? Somebody who's loved ones have died are not checking to see if they have tears or not. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so this is a rare one for me because right out of the gate, my BS meter is just wide open. I could just stop right here and we could be done with this video. If you stole my bicycle, I would probably be more upset and this guy appears to be at the beginning of this video, and I haven't rid of bicycles since 2003. So just to give you an idea, this guy doesn't show any animation, no sense of urgency. Can we get to the facts? Can you help me? None of that. He's just waiting to tell his story. That's an odd start. The other one is, think about the last time you went to a funeral where people know the person is dead, they see the body, and you see them an hour later, their eyes are bloodshot, their nose is caked, nothing, nothing. That's a red flag for me as well. This is right after. Right after he found his wife and son. That's a big deal. There's also in the beginning, Chase, you're talking about his anger or his fear, but I also see him rocking. Is he listening to Ozzy Osbourne in his head or doing something as he's getting ready for what's to come? What you don't know because you didn't clip this video is just before this, there's just who are you getting names and all that straight, then the rocking starts, and that's preparation for what's about to come. And then he goes, as it leads into it, why? Why um? Why um? Don't have to have an answer, we just have to know there's something going on. You look, with the sword thing, when I fight, I ramp up by doing something too. I might rock my body and do that kind of thing. A lot of people who fight do that martial arts folks do it, but we don't usually associate it with telling a story. It's not usually how we go. I also said remorse doesn't mean you didn't do it. And look, if you killed your child and didn't expect to do horrific things to that child, the things he describes, you might still show it. Now there's also a study from 2012 at the University of British Columbia that shows that the best way to tell when somebody is truthful or not about things like this is that, that grief muscle we all talk about that we say Darwin and Dushane originally called it that for ease of discussion. It's that little arts that we see up here that isn't ever present in folks who are lying. It rare rare in folks who aren't lying who are lying. What you see instead is this whole frontalis, this whole set of muscles here draw down. Does that look familiar? And if I remember the muscles here, the zygomatic major I think they're referred to as the ones that tie off from your cheeks to make you smile a containment of that so that it can almost look like a smile. Hmm. That sounds awfully familiar to what he's doing. Go look at that study. What they don't see is all this engagement in the forehead. They see that down and this engagement of these muscles at the side. He goes down the well. You guys know I always say when a person's trying to cry, they go down the well. They find a reason they make it as horrible as they can and they can find a reason to cry, but no tears come up. Mark to your point. He tries to find it. The interesting piece is the people sitting behind him feel it and feel bad for him and go to it. Interesting. Then he says, I figured out that he was dead. Well, look, we're going to bleep a few words in this thing, but go listen to the real words. There's no doubt the guy's dead. You wouldn't even have to figure it out. And then he's got a damn straight face all the time for what he's talking about. And there's that side. It looks like he's almost choking back a smile. He goes, I tried to take there and he pauses a few beats and then says, Pulse, there's so much in here. Forget the fear. Forget all the stuff that we're seeing. Forget the wind up Ozzy Osbourne. Everything else here is just not compatible with a person who just found and I'll leave it at this. People react differently, but not all these different ways and clusters that we're all seeing. So you might be interested enough that this might be all you want to watch, but there's a lot more. Hang on. The island is huge. So just start atop. Take your time. Like when I came back here, I mean, I pulled up and I could see him and, you know, I knew something was bad. I ran out. I knew it was really bad. My boy over there, I could see it was and I could see over the Maggie. Actually, I think I tried to turn Paul over first. You know, I tried to turn him over and I don't know. I figured it out. His cell phone popped out of his pocket. I started to try to do something with it, thinking maybe, but then I put it back down really quickly. Then I went to my wife and I mean, I could see. Did you touch Maggie at all? I did. I touched them both. I tried to take, I mean, I tried to do it as limited as possible, but I tried to take their pulse on both of them. I called 911 pretty much right away and she was very good. I talked to her. I told her I was going to get off the phone to call some family members. I did that and family members, did you call him? I called my brother Randy and I called my brother John and I tried to call a little boy, a real good friend that's right around the corner from here, but I didn't get him. Okay. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so you know, I called 911 pretty much right away. Yeah, I don't think that happened at all. I don't think you called 911 straight away at all. Simply from, you know, then then pretty much. Don't like those around around I called 911. Just I called 911 immediately. That's a good way to say it. He praises them the law enforcement. There's his son and wife are dead. Who cares how good the law enforcement were at that point? You don't care how good they were. You're not giving out medals at that point. And look, and he's totally taken control of his breathing. What you saw at the start where he's, where I think you're right Chase, there's fear there and I think there's probably a little bit of panic as well, but quickly taken control of it. I think maybe those officers in the back give him a bit of, you know, bolstered his confidence a little bit about this is working. We can keep see his eyes kind of, you know, heading off to the side to check out, is this working? Is it working? And guys, it's, it's a fun, it's, it's fun stuff. I'm going to keep it at that because there's plenty more, plenty more to come. Chase, what do you got on this one? All right. In this clip, there's a continuation of what you saw in the first one. The groin protection has become more pronounced. The emotion is gone. The chronology, the exact precise chronology of detail continues here. And the emotional impact of these phone calls is missed. There's no emotional impact when talking about these phone calls because A, they're potentially fake. The story's fake. B, the stress from having to fake this is causing that emotion not to be there. I think it's unusual that he felt the need to provide a customer review for the 911 operator. This might be something in his behavior profile, though, that's starting to reveal itself. But let's see if there's any other evidence that pops up before my hunch on this dies and I'll dive into that. And Greg, what do you got? Yeah, again, we call that a fig leaf for obvious reasons when a person crosses their groin, when a male crosses their groin to protect the testicles, primary sex organs. This guy's doing what I would call modified fig leaf. He puts his hand in his lap and you'll see him moving his hand fairly often. But here again, look, if I have the opportunity to tell you a story or say, hey, somebody killed my family and they're still lying right there, they're probably close by, can we do something to help find them? Yeah. And after that, he's storytelling now, and we see it because he says, whole thing Lee, pretty much right away. Mark, to your point, exactly. Pretty much right away, not right away, not right after that, pretty much. And then he mouth grooms, which we only see a couple of times in this entire thing. And we say mouth grooms, our mouths get dry when we're feeling stress. And lying creates stress in most of us, except for those who are talented at it. And if I'm trying to hide something, I don't want you to find it. I'm going to go and have that opportunity to groom my mouth. You'll see it happen a couple of times in this one. And he does a long vowel and then he goes into chase, you were calling it something earlier. I'll call it clearing not steering. He's going to give you reasons why he was busy and why you didn't, you know, all that kind of thing. There's still no sense of urgency. I wrote in my notes, I hung up the phone, I scratched my backside and he's just given you useless details that I would not give a cop if I were trying to find somebody. He's navigating out of his way through what to say as he goes, she was a good 911 operator. The only good thing in this entire thing is he is not feeling stressed, Mark, to your point. It's a great thing because it gives us a matter of fact stuff I call my brother. So we can look at what matter of fact stuff is because this guy's not stupid. He's not going to say I call my brother and then you pull his phone records and he didn't guarantee he called his brother, did all those pieces. So this gives us a way to pay attention to him as he moves forward. We're going to see it in a couple of other places. Scott, what do you got? I agree with you. We're not seeing those things that let us know that there's stress there. We're not seeing very many adapters that should theoretically be there from the stress he's supposed to be feeling or going through during this. We don't see any of that. Still no valid signs of grief whatsoever from a body language perspective anyway. His blink rate is still really low. He's still covering, he's growing like you were saying, and he's still goofing around. That Kleenex still hasn't used that yet. And he never asks why this happened. He doesn't try to connect with that police officer and like they'll do, they'll sit there, they'll look at him and go, out of confusion, they'll look at him and go, why? He never says why. He doesn't do any of that. This should be so horrific that it should blow his mind that because he shouldn't be able to understand that, but he doesn't have a problem understanding that because I'm under the impression he's the one that did it. So it doesn't bother him at all. He doesn't need to do that. The most horrible thing that ever happened to him, he's not trying to connect with anybody, not trying to go, dude, what's going on? What the hell? Nothing like that at all. His head is in the space that should be for what he's trying to do. So he's thinking about all the things. He's making sure his story is tight. So he's relaxing now because he thinks these people believe him. You hear that guy in the back coughing like he's got Zika or something, but that doesn't throw him either, you know, because he's like clearing his throat and doing all that stuff as well. But his head is right where it should be for someone who is confident with having fooled everyone that their story is being believed, I think. So that's what I got. And, you know, I called 911 pretty much right away and she was very good. I talked to her. I told her I was going to get off the phone to call some family members. I did that. And family members, did you call him? I called my brother Randy and I called my brother John and I tried to call a little boy, real good friend that's right around the corner from here, but I didn't get him. What all was around Paul when you walked up? Blood. Anything else? I mean, there was some body things. Yes, sir. I mean, like any other evidence, I know you said the phone fell out the pocket, but did you see anything else that didn't belong or shouldn't belong or that wasn't part of Paul? No, sir. No, no, not good. No, sir. How about Maggie? No, sir. You didn't see anything around now? All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, everything we talk about in everything is about baseline. So we start from whatever is normal for the person in the situation. Again, it's not normal for you to sit around in your on your couch eating Cheetos. That baseline, we're talking about the baseline you're dealing with when you're asking non pertinent questions. So we see some of that. We see him starting off with more of that same factual baseline. And he's fairly normal until until he's asked about Maggie. We'll talk about that in just a minute. But there's no grimace or distaste or any negative emotion about blood or body stuff around his son. Anybody find that odd? I mean, all kinds of people deal with things different ways. If you found a dog who had been shot, you would probably have a grimace around that, not your child. And I will say this, we say sudden politeness matters, but this is low country, South Carolina. That sudden politeness is just politeness. In the part of Georgia, I live in there. People who refuse to call me by my first name because I'm older. And so it's just part of the culture just to point that out. And there could be a reason, but I don't think it is. It's out of character that he retracts the side of his mouth and does some odd thing, odd thing with his mouth. He grimaces when he's asked, is there anything around Maggie? He does that. He absolutely does not answer the question nods his head a little, shakes his head a little and makes eye contact for the first time in the entire video. We talk about baseline. We talk about deviations from baseline. Ding, ding, ding. I would say, hold on a minute. Why did you suddenly do something different? Or I'd make a mental note and come back and poke and prod it again and again and again. Chase, what do you got? This guy's a prosecutor, which I learned from Greg as we were kind of ramping up for this episode on Zoom. And he's probably tried a bunch of cases. And this is proof that no matter how many cases you do, you don't get inoculated to not displaying the perfect behaviors. All four of us, you can go back and watch us through these videos. We get stressed out. Our blink rate goes up. We have the same human responses that anyone else does. It doesn't give you some hall pass to never display these behaviors again when you learn them. And that's what we're seeing here, a prosecutor who probably thought that he was inoculated against all of this stuff. He knew what to say. He didn't know how to say it. And that's the big difference. And Greg, I'm just going to say this politeness that we are seeing here is a spike. And it's not really present anywhere else here. And I'm Arkansas. My family's off Arkansas. I see a lot of that. But the moment it's just it spikes up higher than it ever does in the conversation. So I'm just going to look at it as a one data point, not some big thing that reveals anything. Right about the specifics concerning the crime scene. And he's gone from no emotion and minimal responsiveness to more responsive, more eye contact and suddenly using the word sir. I would just say this. This is a little spike here that's concerning to me. But notice also, when he's being asked to think back and go through the crime scene, there's no emotion and zero eye accessing. We move our eyes around in our head to access all kinds of details. There is none of that here. This is another huge red flag for me. Scott. All right, I'm going to talk about one thing. Like you were just saying, Chase, when somebody goes back through that and you ask them a question about what they saw or what happened. And they're reliving that because they're there. And their brain's seeing it. They go into this blank stare almost as they start telling you about it. We don't see that at all. This guy isn't doing anything that normal humans would do. And then in my experience so far, the things that I've seen where a person explaining what happened or describing a scene or what was going on there doesn't do anything they normally do or that I'm under the impression they normally do. There's there's nothing. And you're right, Greg, when he connects with them, but it's not that connection of what the hell there's nothing. There's nothing. I'm going to go back to what I said earlier. There's nothing happening here that says I'm worried about this. I can't believe it. This has got me stressed. It's just it should just be freaking him out. And it isn't except for that. He tried to pull it off the top with that that fake cry, which we are during the thing. We got the giggles all of us because it looks like he was laughing. If you go back and watch that, you'll see I'm talking about. But man, this doesn't show anything. It should be showing for someone who's gone through something so horrific. Mark, what do you think? Yeah, I agree with that. Can I correct one thing, Mark, before you start? Yeah, go for it. I just double checked. He apparently did volunteer work in the solicitor's office. So he was a full time prosecutor, just pretty much. Yeah, it's just too calm, just too calm, just too still. And it's not the stillness of shock because the tension would be in his body. You'd see him stuck there. You'd see some kind of catatonic state. He's too soft. It's too cool. It's too much like he's sitting on the couch eating Cheetos. It's just that kind of softness and rhythm. I totally agree. He's not seeing the scene in his head. We don't see any eye accessing. I don't care where his eyes go. I need his eyes to go somewhere, somewhere to search for information. Because he would know he's being asked information because there could be a clue. There could be a clue that could lead to the perpetrator right now. He doesn't even bother to go and look for that information. Why? Because he knows there's no information there. He knows there's nothing there that would help them find the perpetrator because they found the perpetrator. He's sitting in the car next to them. I mean, just no shock. No looking to the scene. So nonchalant. It's extraordinary. And so different from what his tactic at the start. I think he stopped that tactic because, again, he got such a good response from the officers that he thinks it's done now and he doesn't need to go back to that tactic. There. That's all I got, man. Greg, what were you telling us earlier? We were going through some things earlier about the backstory on this. What else is this guy been into? What else has been going on? Yeah, hold on one second. Yeah, this family is really prominent. So I think it's his father who was the last prosecutor. But from 1920 to 2006, they held the office prosecutor for that county. So really big legacy of legal family. He's got some ghosts in his past. If you go look, he's got some things around like a housekeeper who died that they had some life insurance policy on. He's got some other stuff. There's a kid who his son went to school with who ended up dying. And there was rumor that his son was involved. And then there was the case was closed, but it has been reopened by the district attorney as a result of evidence they found during this case. He was estranged from his wife at the time of the murder. And if you go read the headlines, they say she was lured out to there. Apparently he asked her to visit his terminally ill father and she said no, she wanted to be in public because he was acting fishy. I mean, there's a ton of stuff in here. Just go out and look for yourself. There's more than one weapon involved. There's a ton of stuff in this case. There's just a lot for you to go look at. We could spend an entire hour just refuting and figuring out what's on the list of rumors and checklist. As Chase often says, we're not the forensics panel. We're telling you what we see in this video. And there's plenty. So this is good enough. So Greg, note to self, always get life insurance for domestic help. It's not odd. Not odd. For sure. For sure. Not odd. I've never heard of that before. Has anybody ever heard of it before? I'm going to do it. Why wouldn't you? I mean, just in case, you know. I mean, I don't know how they make a bit of money out of your domestic help, just in case they die. There's so much information out here on these guys. I think there's even a lot more. Like he's got financial crimes that if he were to get off these charges, they still got financial crimes to face. There's a ton of stuff that they've allowed into evidence. Just go watch. Look, I don't want to be the guy who misquotes something. I probably have misquoted some of that. But just go read. There's so much out there on this guy. You could spend all day trying to figure out all the craziness going on in this case. So the eye witness is you. What all was around Paul when you walked up? Blood. Anything else? I mean, there was some body things. Yes, sir. I mean, like any other evidence. I know you said the phone fell out the pocket. But did you see anything else that didn't belong or shouldn't belong or that wasn't part of Paul? No, sir. No, no, not good. No, sir. How about Maggie? No, sir. You didn't see anything around them? What made you come out here tonight? I went to my mom's late stage Alzheimer's patient. My dad's in the hospital. My mom gets anxious when she does. I went to check on them and Maggie. And Maggie's a dog lover. She foods with the dogs and I knew she'd gone to the kennel. I was at the house. I left the house and went to my mom's for just a little while. Tried to call her when I left. Texted her no response. When I got back to the house, the house was obviously nobody was in there. So I figured they're still up here fooling around. Paul was going to be getting set up to plant. Our sunflower seeds got sprayed and died and he was refiguring to do to plant the sunflower seeds. So I came back up here and drove up and saw and called an ID. Yeah, I don't know. I thought it was that was his friend. Hang on a second. Up to this point, right now, we're talking about how we thought the guy in the back seat was a police officer, but it was just odd. And Greg, what did you say about that? I think it's his friend. I think it's his friend. I think it's his friend. I don't remember, but I think it's his friend. He's got his shirt open like he's Robert Wagner. Only thing he's missing is those little scarves that go there or an ask what do you call that thing? An ask God? Is that what's the scarf they put on the mark? Cravat. Oh, that's all he's missing. Plus, they need to get him some kind of COVID something on him. This guy, man, he's back there. Sounds like something's up with him. Sounds like it's maybe some of his last days. Okay. Sorry about that. I should cut all that out. Maybe it's code for shut up. You sound stupid. It could be. And so I'm going to say this about him too. A little while his knee comes out. Look how shiny his knee is. So it's like a mirror. It looks it looks like it's so weird, man. It looks like it looks like a polished piece of wood when it comes out his knee. You'll see in a few minutes. Okay. I thought it was a cop. I was going to say about it with a man. I hope he's not. But Jesus, he's really got his thing together, man. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah. This is the first time we see him touch his face. Touches his nose. Look, you'll hear people say if a person touches his nose or line. No, we're not those folks. What we're saying is look for a deviation in baseline and ask yourself why. It's a pertinent question and a hard question. Why did you come out here tonight? Well, that's a good question. And he uses his left hand touches his face. Suddenly, he does one of the most powerful male adapters that exist. I call it butterfly thighs. And if you ever want to see men will flip their legs, their thighs in and out that way, younger men do it a lot. It also includes your genitals when you start moving your legs. And it has a lot of impact. So that's a big comforting move for a guy to do. You'll see it a lot in younger sports players when they're being interviewed, when you watch them on night shows and that kind of thing. All an adapter is a way for you to release nervous energy. And if we do them enough, they become habitual. So if you don't know what yours are, the way you release nervous energy, ask someone next to you. Ask someone who knows you well because they know what you do when you're releasing nervous energy. Maybe you pick your nails, flip your hair, do something like that. Then he starts to tell a long story that has no pertinence to anything we're talking about. And that is I went to see my mama, my mama's sick. She's got dementia. And he goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. And he gives you the cookbook. We call that chaff and redirect because an aircraft drops chaff to hope a missile will follow it rather than the story. That's what he's doing. He's dropping lots of details, hoping you'll follow that. And that's odd usually. But again, my wife and son are lying 100 yards away dead. Somebody murdered them. And I'm going to tell you about my mama's jello she had for lunch. Come on. And he's adapting like all hell with that issue, with his hands and with the other. He goes to that dog lover. She fools with a dog. One shoulder rises. We hadn't seen that yet. We see a single shoulder. We often associate that with discomfort or not comfortable in the information they're sharing. He does a pause. He does a down left, looks down left, which we associate with internal voice. And he does a head scratch. We associate all of those things with thinking, with giving yourself time to think. He doesn't say what he saw, what he saw over with her, either with words or with body language or with tone. None of that. And I think the female law enforcement officer in the back senses it because watch her cross her abdomen in discomfort as he's telling that story. I bet if you went and talked to them and say, this guy, day one, we thought he whacked her. We thought he killed his wife. That's exactly what I think you'd see. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, there's a cascade of negative statements, victim statements, really. The parents are ill and anxious. Maggie's a dog lover. Doesn't love him, loves the dogs. She falls with the dogs. That's negative. Rather than going, she looks after those dogs so well that she's falling with the dogs. And he's texted her and there's no response. So she's not attentive to him. And then Paul is associated with sunflowers dying. So again, not being able to... I mean, that will, more of this story will come out and maybe he's laying down this story early. But essentially everybody is inept. Ultimately parents are non-functioning. Wife loves animals and messes around and doesn't answer the phone. And Paul can't look after sunflowers. So really casting a bad light on the victims there and him being around people who can't look after themselves or the things that are important or him. This is very different from a video that we looked at earlier this week around the boyfriend of Nicola Bully who went missing. Maybe he's still missing, who knows at this point. But in that particular film, he didn't create any negative attitude about this missing person. No negative attitude about the victim. No, she goes for silly walks with the dog and probably messed up somewhere. And so it's so different here. Again, that alone is a loud flag. You can't have a loud flag, but I'm going to say it anyway. It's a loud flag. It's a loud, loud flag. Greg, what do you got on this one? No? Chase? Yep, I'll go. Thank you. This is detail overload. There's a few things I want you to notice as you go through the video again in just a second. Number one, the detail and the chronology of everything is loaded and piled high. But none of the details are about finding out who did this. There is no request to investigate the scene or talk about the word murder. It's the last word in the world that he wants to come out of his mouth at a moment like this. And the confirmation glance is back and forth where he's checking that detective with every detail. In this clip especially, just to make sure he's buying it are just a classic hallmark of deception. It's one of the things we look for when we see a lot of other behaviors in their outside of baseline, like we're seeing here. And when he says obviously nobody was in there, I think he's telling us potentially this my opinion as this entire video is just an opinion. I think he's telling us it was obvious to him that nobody was going to be in that house. Then finally we have something called severity softening and lack of detail. There's tons of my new perfect little details about the intricate process he's going through with these sunflower seeds. Then what's the detail on the crime scene? Here's the detail on the crime scene in this video. Word for word. I came up and saw and called. That's the difference between sunflower seeds versus dead family members here. Scott? You know what? Greg, now that you've told us this guy in the back isn't a cop, this makes so much sense the way she's acting. And do you know what's making it? This is what I think. Here I go from my rant. But you know what makes me think she knows something's up? Think about it for a minute. You guys think about this for a second. What's he wearing? A white t-shirt. Where's he come from? He's come from two people who have been killed in a it's a bloody crime scene that he's put his hands on that he's been messing with. There's no blood on this guy. Nowhere. And he's not using that Kleenex. He's not looking at his hands to make sure there's no blood. He's washed his hands. That's what's happened. He's changed clothes. Yeah. Yeah. He'll tell you he went back to the house afterward. Yep. Yep. That's what that's what's happened. I don't know if that if that's if he doesn't talk about it in here anyway, that's what's bothering her. That's why I bet that because she can't see him. So it's something that happened beforehand. It's got her thinking something's up with this guy. That's what I think that's what I think is happening there. I just thought about that a second ago that yeah. So anyway, that's what I think is going on there. But back to the body language part of it. After the question, you're right, Greg. He touches the middle part of his head there, the middle of his brow there. Haven't seen that yet. If there's other than than rubbing his whole face. Then he does this really quick request for approval. That's another one of Greg's things where your eyebrows go up as you're looking looking to get something okayed or you're asking a question and you need some information. His eyebrows go up and he starts adapting. I guess what you call that butterfly thing, Greg. Then he starts using his Kleenex as an adapter, which we talked about what happened earlier. Earlier we talked about that was going to happen. A whole lot of movement in comparison to the baseline we've seen up at this point. Up to this point because he's been fairly still up till now. This is where it makes me think something would be up with this. Then he starts going down this list of stuff and his voice is and then this and then this. It's just, it's just a list. He's rehearsed this. He knew what he was going to say when he came into this. When this question came up, he's got his list of things that happened and things that he was going to talk about. You see a couple of those little shoulder shrugs, a single shoulder shrug here and a single one there and then a full one there. But the thing is with shoulder shrugs and you'll hear a lot of things about them. But here's what we are in the impression or understand that shoulder shrugs indicate. Because when one shoulder goes up really quickly, that says I'm not sure about this answer. I'm not sure what I'm saying. If it goes up and stays like it will sometimes, it stays for about a second or second half. Same with a double shoulder shrug. It stays up for a second. If not, it just comes up and then down really quickly. That indicates a person isn't sure about their answer. Not that they're being deceptive, but it just says they're not sure about what that answer is. And I think he's afraid. He's trying to make sure he's covering every basis. He's thinking about that. I guess in his brain, maybe he's thinking, okay, I've got that covered. Let me see what else. Yeah, I got that. I think as he goes down this list, that's why we're seeing those things. But throughout this, he still hasn't used that Kleenex for what you use them for. And I think he's changed clothes. I think he washed up and changed clothes. That's what I think of that one. Let's see what happens. All right, we good? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's you. What made you come out here tonight? I went to my mom's late stage Alzheimer's patient. My dad's in the hospital. My mom gets anxious when she does that. When she does, I went to check on them and Maggie, Maggie's a dog lover. And she fools with the dogs. And I knew she'd gone to the kennel. I was at the house. I left the house and went to my mom's for just a little while. Tried to call her when I left. Texted her no response. When I got back to the house, the house was obviously nobody was in there. So I figured they're still up here fooling around. Paul was going to be getting set up to plant. Our sunflower seeds got sprayed and died. And he was re-figuring to do, to plant the sunflower seeds. So I came back up here and drove up and saw and called. Had Maggie and Paul been arguing over anything? No. What was their relationship like? Wonderful. Wonderful. How about yours and Maggie's? Wonderful. I mean, I'm sure we had little things here and there, but we had a wonderful marriage, wonderful relationship. And yours and Paul's relationship? As good as it could be. How old is Paul? 22. Okay. You know his date of birth? I do. April 11th, 96th is his brother's. April 14th, 99th is Paul's. And how about, what's Maggie's full name? Margaret Brandstetter Murdoch. And her date of birth, sir? September 15th, 1968. Have y'all been having any problems out here? Trust passers, people breaking in? None that I know of. The only thing that what comes to my mind is my son Paul was in a boat wreck a couple years ago. And there's been a, you know, he was charged with being arrested for being the driver. There's been a lot of negative publicity about that. And there's been a lot of people online, just really vile stuff. But when Paul's out and about, I mean, people routinely, I don't think I know the full story. Because I don't think they give it to me. But I mean, he's been punched and hit and just attacked a lot. So, you know, but I mean, nothing like this. This is a mistake, John. I tell you, there's blood out there. I think it might have been two guns. I don't know. He's gonna trust me on that one. You cut that out. I shouldn't have said whack, but sorry. Yeah, what are you gonna do? All right, Chase, what do you got? There's some strange head movement here. There's shaking and nodding mixed together, which you do not see in this culture. And I think this is confused on his part of which behavior to display. And you can confirm this confusion by the fact that he starts doing what I call intent checking. He's glancing repeatedly at the detective here in this instance to determine what kind of intent the detective has and the angle that he's taking with some of these questions. And when he offers this, the brother's birthday, this is a miniature resume statement here. And he's offering the details that suggest that he's a caring and good father. See, I know both of their birthdays. And I think he's doing that mostly unconsciously. And when there's a question about the trespassers, the response to the question is an insertion of ambiguity into the case. Think about it. If I asked you if strangers come into your house often, your answer would be no, probably not. So I would say this is maybe going on Mark's scale, maybe a dark, medium, medium light or a weight flag. Did you say heavy flag earlier? No, it was a sound of it, but I like it a little bit. Okay. This is maybe a volume nine or a 8.5 on the 10 scale flag. And I don't know how big this property is, which is one of the reasons here. We can call this maybe a medium flag here. There's an inability to identify a perpetrator. There is no concern to find out who did this at all. He wants to keep the net cast as wide as possible here for what might have happened. And he still won't say murder. He skips over the murder every single possible time that it comes up every time here. Mark? Yeah. So I love this one where his leg starts getting excited. It starts going up and down. A bit of the in and out as well there, Greg, as well. But it's even more joyous around this idea of introducing the boat story. Because I think he's now laying down some ideas of potential trouble that may lead to a perpetrator. And I think he looks off to his side there, not only to check intent, but to work out, how's my story landing on this one? Is this one I should go a little bit further down that my son may well have an enemy out there? We also, this is off baseline as well. We also start to see his hand nearest to the driver to the officer just becomes more active. And I haven't seen his hand that active and that descriptive. So I think he's becoming quite excited and buoyant around how this story might work out for him. This is off baseline for me. Scott, what have you got on this one? All right, here's where he alludes to the murders due to that boat accident. That's cold. When you're trying to blame something on something your son did, that says a lot about this guy and his personality type. And when he's asked about the relationship with his son, his head shakes and it turns, no, and then starts turning like Chase was saying until like a little bobble head doll. So there's a lot going on there at that point as well. And that's probably true that the relationship is as good as it could be, you know, as it could possibly be. And that's because they probably didn't get along very well. So it was as good as it could possibly be because maybe the child didn't like him, maybe the wife didn't like him because he says the same thing about her as well, as good as it could possibly be. And he's telling the truth, I think there. It was as good as it could possibly be. Apparently she's moved out and lives. Where'd you say she was, Greg? Living in the what? In their beach house. I read she was estranged in living in their beach house. Yeah, didn't bring that up at all. So there's a lot going on there that he's not bringing up. So I'm sure it was as good as it could possibly be. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So I couldn't pay a person to illustrate baseline better than this guy does. He's asked two questions about his relationship with his son and about his relationship with his wife. And in both instances, he says wonderful. Go back, watch his body language when he says wonderful. When he says wonderful about his son, it's pretty straight body language. When he says wonderful about his wife, now we know that they're estranged. He breaks eye contact, moves away to the side. His face changes and he is entirely different when he's saying that. Then he's drawing away as he says it, then he qualifies it. I forget what he says exactly. Well, we had our moments and then he gets back into his facts and deliberate language. And the minute he gets back into those facts and deliberate language, then he's okay. He's answering factual questions. His baseline comes back. When he gets down to the mechanics and he starts to tell that boat story, his thighs start moving. As Mark said, he starts to march in place with that one foot and his blink rate increases. He does a left shoulder shrug again when he says nothing like this. Well, of course, nothing like this. Yeah, they hit him. They said bad things to him and never came out and killed him. So all this, we see a pattern. We see his baseline when he's comfortable. We see a deviation. And we get a chance to see two very different answers using the same English. If you think that body language is hokum, watch that. Tell me it's hokum. Tell me you can't see something that's going on. Two different messages, same words. That's all I got. That's a tie. Beautiful. And you take both. Beautiful. The Olympics. You're taking it so serious. Had Maggie and Paul been arguing over anything? No. What was their relationship like? Wonderful. Wonderful. How about yours and Maggie's? Wonderful. I mean, I'm sure we had little things here and there, but we had a wonderful marriage, wonderful relationship. In yours and Paul's relationship? As good as it could be. How was Paul? 22. You know his date of birth? I do. April 11, 96 is his brother's. April 14, 99 is Paul's. What's Maggie's full name? Margaret. Brand Statter. Murdoch. And her date of birth, sir? September 15, 1968. Have y'all been having any problems out here? Trust passers, people breaking in? None that I know of. The only thing that what comes to my mind is my son Paul was in a boat wreck a couple years ago. He was charged with being arrested for being the driver. There's been a lot of negative publicity about that. And there's been a lot of people online just really vile stuff. But when Paul's out and about, I mean, people routinely, I don't think I know the full story. So I don't think they give it to me. But I mean, he's been punched and hit and just attacked a lot. So, you know, but I mean, nothing like this. So is there anybody that you can think of that we need to talk to tonight? Is there a name that comes to mind? I mean, I can't tell you anybody that I'm overly suspicious of off the top of my head. You know, I mean, this is such a stupid thing. I'm even embarrassed to say it. But it just didn't make any sense. I just hired a guy out here and he really, he wasn't cutting the mustard, but I hadn't told him this yet. Paul's been working with him a lot. He killed the sunflower seeds in our Dove field just recently, which is why Paul was here doing this. He told Paul the story the other day about how when he was in high school, he got in a fight with some black guys. And FBI undercover team observed him fighting those guys and put him on an undercover team with three Navy SEALs. And that their job was to kill radical Black Panthers. And they did that from Myrtle Beach to Savannah. Now, I really don't think this guy, you know, is probably the person, but that's just so friggin... Yeah, that's kind of far fetched. It's weird, but he was off today. He took his daddy to the doctor. What's his name? C.B. Roe. Oh, Chase, what do you got? Right at the beginning of this clip, you can see him try to adjust himself to look more comfortable and more relaxed. The moment he does this, you're going to see his body completely disagree with him. It's going to move his hand back almost just without his consent to protect the groin and the femoral artery here. And do you know what other emotion that would be coming up here that's missing is anger? Anger would be present here. And he's got a huge problem identifying a perpetrator here who did this and he wants to keep the ambiguity as high as possible. And I don't think there's any desire whatsoever for them to find... for him to get them to find the person that did this and just pay close attention to what is not being said here. And I think in my opinion, you might hear a murderer talking if you just listen to what's not being said and what's being ignored. Greg? Yeah, there's no anger. There's no rush. There's no urgency. None of that. As a matter of fact, listen to the cadence of his storytelling slow down. Slow down. This is... What has it been? 30 minutes of him sitting in a car. I would be looking for help. He gives in to, you know, there's a new word, a new phrase he's injecting that indicates he's comfortable and thinking and talking. And that's his filler words starting to come out. He doesn't... He's not scrambled. It's not compressed. None of that's going on. There's more concern in the cop's brow and in the guy in the back seat and there isn't his. This is his family. There's that zygomatic muscle again that we said makes your face want to smile. It sure looks like he's almost smiling when he's telling that story. Well, we know that earlier what the study said was if your frontalis muscle was down in sadness and that that was probably an indicator. He also starts to turtle chase after he goes back and he gets forced into that position. Then he shrinks a bit and we say turtling your head and your torso shrink and make your target smaller. This cadence is unlike anything else we've heard. I think it's because he has already been rehearsing this story and he knows what he's going to say. This guy who told me this story and... Well, if you're trying to figure out who to point somebody to, you'd have a lot of details. When I would just say, hey, there's a guy who works for me. He's a little shady. Maybe you want to go check him if that were the case. I don't think that's the case. And this is the first time, the single first time he's used his right hand to illustrate anything when he's talking about this guy. It's been at his groin, as I call it, protecting the precious this entire time. That's another red flag. Scott, what do you got? All right, now he's trying to put the suspicion on somebody else. He brings in this other guy that worked for him that he just hired that isn't working out. And again, we're not seeing, like you were saying, Greg, we're not seeing things we should be seeing in here. We're not seeing the emotions someone goes through as they relive this experience of what just happened, the most horrible things ever happened to him. We don't see that uncontrollable sobbing, no wailing and crying, nothing. We don't even see one tear and he has, and I've been looking, nothing. We don't see, he doesn't tear up. There's nothing in there. There's no tears at all. We don't see that detachment you'll see from when someone goes through something that bad. Know why this happened, going back to that and talking about how good they were. He's not talking about the things, oh, oh, he loved this or she loved, he talked about the dogs earlier, but he didn't really focus on that. He'd be talking about how the things that he thought of her and what they reminded, what this reminded him of her. She liked to do this and he loved to do that. That's what he would talk about a lot, especially with this amount of time going by in an interview like this. I don't hear where that usually happens, especially when you're the first, you've got him in the car and you're the first one's talking to him. That's what you see in here. There's none of that, none of that, none of that's happening. He should be distraught. This guy's not distraught. He sounds like he's talking about some things that, like when we tell stories, it sounds like he's talking about something that happened last week. Guess what happened last week? This and then going through it. He just gives us a list of things and never tears up. Doesn't use his Kleenex either. Nothing's looking the way it should look. I keep going back to that, but that's, I think that's the most important thing here. Nothing looks as it should look up to now. All right, Mark, what have you got? Yeah, this is a beautiful scene. You can't even write this stuff. It's genius. The officer says, look, is there anybody that we should be looking at? And while he says that, he covers his mouth because he knows, I think that he's looking at the perpetrator right now. So he's even blocking himself to the lie of the question that he's asking there. This guy comes up with an amazing story. It's a brilliant story. I don't know whether he's making it up completely on his own or this guy who had took the day off today. Had actually told him this story, but it's a brilliant idea for a story whereby you've got a kid, high school kid, gets in a fight, FBI, CM. They've got a whole bunch of Navy SEALs, and they go after the Black Panthers together all the way. And I love this line. They did that from Myrtle Beach to Savannah. It's just a great, I can just picture it in my head. The Navy SEALs in this high school kid, Myrtle Beach is fantastic. I just, all that rough stuff happening in Myrtle Beach. And then all the way down to, I think they have to go through Charlotte or something like that or Charleston or something. I don't know. I can't remember. But yeah, yeah. But I'm just picturing the scene there as well. The awful carnage. The coast that's going on. So I mean, what an amazing, amazing story. And the cop, again, does a double take on it. What the hell's going on here? And he does say, look, I'm embarrassed to say this. I'm embarrassed to even put this idea forward. But then he goes, yeah, I felt that story was a bit off, but he did take the day off today. Like what a brilliant equation. It's a nutty story. Obviously it's utter nuts, but he did take the day off. So I think you should be looking at him. Just brilliant, brilliant, brilliant logic. Love it. Let's have another. You don't know about the FBI Navy Seal High School Recruiter or Killer Teams? No, no. Everybody everybody knows that story in the US. That's like a classic all the way from from Little Beach. No, because last time was in Myrtle Beach. Nobody bought it up. So they have to sell cookies. I think I've talked about for something. We don't talk about it. Oh, you're too British. Oh, that's I'm sorry. That was a Girl Scouts. Somebody sells cookies. I was in it, but they kicked me out for cry. I wouldn't see you. So is there anybody that you can think of that we need to talk to tonight? Is there a name that comes to mind? I mean, I can't tell you anybody that I'm overly suspicious of off the top of my head. You know, I mean, this is such a stupid thing. I'm even embarrassed to say it. But it just didn't make any sense. I just hired a guy out here and he's really he wasn't cutting the mustard, but I hadn't told him this yet. Paul's been working with him a lot. He killed the sunflower seeds in our dove field just recently, which is why Paul was here doing this. He told Paul the story the other day about how when he was in high school, he got in a fight with some black guys. And the FBI undercover team observed him fighting those guys and put him on an undercover team with three Navy SEALs. And that their job was to kill radical black Panthers. And they did that from Myrtle Beach to Savannah. Now, I really don't think this guy, you know, is probably the person. He's probably the person, but that's just so frigging. Yeah, that's kind of far-fetched story. But he was off today. He took his daddy to the doctor. What's his name? C.B. Roe. Do y'all store any weapons out here? We don't store them, but they're, you know, they're frequently out here. I need to find out if there were any out here because I know there was a shotgun. There was a 12-gauge shotgun out here. I don't have to find out exactly when that was. I think it got put up, but I'm not positive. What did that shotgun look like? It was a camouflage. I want to say it was a Benelli or maybe a Beretta. I can't remember which brand it is. I don't think it was out here recently, but I'm not positive. And the shotgun that you had when deputies pulled up, where did that come from? I went to the house and I got a gun probably overreacting, but... And was that when you pulled up and saw them? No, I mean, I came out and I called 911 first, talked to them for a little while, and then I told her. Told her that I was going to go to the house and that I would let the authorities know when they got here that I had a gun. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, just one thing, which is he's really screwed himself now because now he's bringing up the murder weapon. How easy was that? How easy was that? Gunny guns out here? Yeah. And he's mentioned a shotgun. And I'm going to assume from what I heard before as to the condition of, certainly, one of the bodies that a shotgun was used. And so, yeah, he's already bringing up the murder weapon and what it might look like and could be a certain brand. I can't believe that he's not been clever throughout any of this. So I don't know why I was even going to say there that he's been so clever and now he's being so dumb because ultimately he's been so dumb throughout it. There, that's all I got on that one. Greg, what have you got? Yeah. And for those of you who don't know weapons, a shotgun is harder to trace as a murder weapon because it doesn't rifle whatever you're using. You can have rifle slugs, but likely not what was used. And those rifles on the other hand, like that blackout that they were using, does create patterning on the bullet. So if you have the weapon and the bullet, you can figure out which weapon was used. That's part of the reason why that might be an issue. This cop is even looking a little frustrated. Look at the brow. And suddenly this guy talks like a lawyer. Do you have weapons? Do you store weapons there? Will not stored? Well, you know the intent of the question, but you're answering it that way. His hands have moved now to where he's got kind of a little gentle hug going on. And he's chaffing when he talks about weapons, when he starts to talk about weapons, his blink rate rises and he starts to adapt as they're talking about this weapon, specifically this shotgun, you see his foot starting to tap and hop. His hand is adapting, meaning releasing nervous energy at his stomach. And after he's asked specifically about, did you have a shotgun? Watch that right leg. It is going crazy. His breathing becomes more rapid and pronounced and he even loses fluency as he's running out of words at what he told her. His blink rate is higher. This is a hotspot. This and back to why did you come here and a couple of others are real hotspots at this point. You got to pay attention when something jumps off the plate. This is a loud red flag mark to use yours. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I've got a couple of loud flags here too. There's more ambiguity being injected here about the shotgun. Ambiguity about the weapon, not certainty. So a desire to help the case means that you would specifically state the facts without ambiguity. And then he's saying, I got a gun. It was probably overreacting. He's explaining motive again to perform an action. Innocent people don't feel the need to stop the story and explain motive to every action that they take. And grabbing a gun after finding family members that are murdered is not an overreaction in this culture that we're seeing here in this video. I think he went back to get a different gun. That was from the house. So he could be holding one when the police showed up. In my opinion, definitely not a fact. Scott. All right, you guys covered everything I was going to cover. Keep it from being boring. Let's move on. Do y'all store any weapons out here? We don't store them, but they're frequently out here. I need to find out if there were any out here because I know there was a shotgun. There was a 12-gauge shotgun out here. I'll have to find out exactly when that was. I think it got put up, but I'm not positive. What did that shotgun look like? It was a camouflage. I want to say it was a Benelli or maybe a Beretta. I can't remember which brand it is, but I don't think it was out here recently, but I'm not positive. The shotgun that you had when deputies pulled up, where did that come from? I went to the house and I got a gun, probably overreacting. Was that when you pulled up and saw them? No. I came out and called 911 first, talked to them for a little while, and then I told her that I was going to go to the house and that I would let the authorities know when they got here that I had a gun. What did you do to do? Were you in the office? No, I was home. I came home, Paul and I messed around. I was up at the house. I laid down, took a nap on the couch, probably, I don't know, 25, 30 minutes. I got up, I called Maggie, didn't get an answer, and I left to go to my mom's. She had said she might ride with me, but she normally doesn't when I go over there. I think I texted her and she's very good about answering the phone, so that was odd or calling me back. So that was odd, but it wasn't that big a deal. Now what time was that? What time was what? That you sent her a text message. I texted her 908, going to check on MB right back, and then I texted her at 947, that must be when I started to come back. I think I called her before that, but let me make sure. Pretty sure that I called her 945, and then I tried Paul, and then no, I think that was riding. I think that might have been riding over there, 1003. I mean, my calls are right here, so obviously this is when I, at 1006, can I help you? Yes, sir. Anybody else want some gum? You don't have any water, do you, Danny? I'm sorry, I don't need it. If you, behind Danny's head is a case of water. It's not a big deal. Yeah, I got some. Trials going on right now? Yes. Yep. Wow. It's live on that law and crime network thing. Really? Yeah, and court TV and just about everywhere. That's cool, law and crime, let's use their stuff. We should give them a shout out. Yeah. Our stuff below. Yeah, for sure. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm going to keep this pretty short. He's adapting all the way up until he gets to the point they give him a freebie, the minute he gets to where he gets to now go back to baseline. Things that matter is the phone record. This is a guy who's smart enough, he's been in the business long enough. He knows that's a matter of fact. He's just going to run through it. And Chase, I'll use one of your favorites. You can tell when he relaxes because he goes to abdominal breathing. It's pronounced and they've let him now off the hook. His brain is relaxed. There's no emotion whatsoever. Still, what is missing is a, hey, can we just hurry? Can we get back to this instead of talking about all my phone records? They're a matter of record here. Boom. That's it. Scott, what do you got? All right. I think we're seeing a very subtle change in his baseline up to what we've seen so far. His cadence has sped up. His voice tone is a little bit higher. He's the most relaxed he's been so far. Still no use of that Kleenex. Still garden is growing. Still doing the same things we talked about at the top. His blink rate is still low. Everything we talked about at the top is still going on at this point. And I think it's because, like you were saying, Greg, this is what he envisioned happening. He's done now. He's gone through his list of stuff that he's supposed to talk about. And while he begins, it starts answering, you see him lean back and that head goes back and rests up against the head rest back there. He's relaxing, but I think at the same time he's sort of bracing himself against the back of that head rest and his legs start moving back and forth. And I think this indicates the stress of this specific situation because almost everything changes up to this point. And again, they're very subtle, but those are the things we're looking for and listening for. And after that, he asks him for gum and water. I think it's almost like a reward for himself. He's crossed the finish line. He's reached his goal. He said everything he's supposed to, that he's thought about saying on his list of things he's rehearsed, his story. We've heard him walk through. Like you were saying, Chase, too many details, man. Way too many details for what had happened from as we look at this as a whole. So I think he feels like he's crossed the finish line and he's like, yeah, instead of dunking water on himself, he's asking for water and he's chewing gum, which makes sense because I'm sure his mouth got dry during all that, during the nervous parts of it. But I think he's relaxed now. So that's why his brain is letting him do things outside of that situation. No sobbing. No, you know, what happened? No hand-ringing. Nothing we should be seeing in here that we're seeing here, I guess you'd say. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So lots of upward inflection. Paul and I messed around, probably, and odd. So I think he's unsure around the story he's trying to project at this point, not quite sure if it's going to stick. Then the female officer in the back says, asked him something about time. Then we get a down inflection. What time was what? So I think he now knows that he's now going to be nailed down to some times. I think some of those times, some of the phone information is working for him. And I think some of it can't be reconciled. If I remember rightly, I think he turns and opens the door and kind of spits out the door or maybe even vomits a bit. I'm not quite sure. But there's some kind of opening of the door, I think. And so I think he can't reconcile some of the... He sees some information that he can reconcile on there. And there's some stuff that isn't going to work for him. And there may be some panic there. So either he has to lean out to block that and have a think about it, then comes back, looks off to reconcile, like, how am I going to deal with this? And then the phone goes away. Chase, what do you got on this one? I agree with you guys. You all covered a lot of it. There's more ambiguity and insertion here. But the way that he points to the call log directly and then mentions it, that's interesting to me. I'm betting that we find out something is off about this call log. The trial's going on right now. So I don't think he's been on the stand yet. I'm willing to bet that we find something is interesting about this call log. And he calls it out as if it's an offering, much like he did with the camouflage shotgun. It's an offering. Well, there's something here that you can look at. Those two things, call log and shotgun, were the two things that really stood out to where he kind of offered something up to assist the police. That is a heavy flag for me. Is that everybody? Excellent. Greg won that one. Stolen it. Yeah, man. The hell is that? The island is you. What did you do today? Were you at the office or? Nope. I was home. I came home. Paul and I messed around. I was up at the house. I laid down, took a nap on the couch. Probably, I don't know, 25, 30 minutes. I got up. I called Maggie. Didn't get an answer. And I left to go to my mom's. She said she might ride with me, but she normally doesn't when I go over there. And I think I texted her. And she's very good about answering the phone. So that was odd or calling me back. So that was odd, but it wasn't that big a deal. Now, what time was that? What time was what? That you sent her a text message. I texted her 908 going to check on MB right back. And then I texted her at 947. That must be when I started to come back. I think I called her before that. But let me make sure. Pretty sure that I called her 945. And then I tried Paul. And then, no, I think that was riding. I think that might have been riding over there. 1003. I mean, my calls are right here. So, obviously, this is when I, at 1006, can I help you? Yes, sir. Thank you. Anybody else want some gum? You want any water, do you, Danny? Sure. I saw it. I don't need it. If you, behind Danny's head is a taste of water. That's not a big deal. Yeah, I got some. This one's hard. But when you first saw Paul, you said you tried to flip him over. Was he laying on his back or on his stomach? Just like he is. Just like he is. So you weren't able to move him. Okay. No, ma'am. Okay. And did he help Maggie a lot out here with the animals? He helped everybody with everything. Okay. So it was kind of routine for him to be out here as well in the evening? This place is his absolute passion. Okay. I tried to turn him, and then I checked him. And I mean, I think I already knew, but I checked him. And when you first pulled into the property, did you come from this direction where all our police cars are? Or which way did you come in? I went to the house. Okay. And then I came from the house straight here. Yes, ma'am. Okay. I mean, where my vehicle was parked is probably is where it was. Okay. Well, no, maybe not exactly, but it was pretty close because I came back the same route. That's right. Because you went back to get your shotgun when I came back. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, just a few things. Again, no grief, not in this forehead, not in the sides of the mouth. Look, there's lots of ways to show grief. You know, there's all kinds of ways that people show grief. We associate that with grief muscle. There's a ton of stuff you can do with your face to show your sad that you're disappointed. Something. I mean, we know we can because we've seen him use those parts of his face. So he's not Botoxed out of existence, although maybe that's part of it. But there's not even concern in his brow. None, none. When she's talking about rolling over your dead child, none, none. This is within moments. And I'll say you can be shocked, people behave differently, but very few people in life chase combat. A guy you don't know you find dead like that. That has an impact. It has an impact on people. There's no renewed emotion, no help me. He could be talking about a car accident the way he's responded this. And then I came out and my tail light was busted out. It's about what I hear. There's no shock at how horrific this is. Because if I did it, I desensitize after I've seen it. I probably didn't expect it. Look, my opinion, this guy's just talked himself into a hole. And, and he thinks he's at the end of it because he goes back into Aussie mode. He starts doing the yeah, yeah, yeah thing, the head banging thing again. I think he feels like he's at two posts at the end of this thing. Just my opinion, just what I see. Chase, what do you got? So this, this Aussie thing you're talking about, this head nodding at the end here is something I really want to talk about. So first, we're seeing a repetitive gesture. Second, we're seeing nodding. Third, we're seeing gum chewing, another repetitive gesture. If we go off of what the Godfather says, Joe Navarro, repetitive gestures are self soothing. And he's experiencing a lot of discomfort during this period of silence. And I think unconsciously he's nodding to both self soothe and to reassure himself that his story is correct and that there's some form of agreement here in the call with him. But I had to call the big guns this morning. And I wanted to get Joe Navarro's opinion on this. So I sent this video to Joe this morning. And this is from Joe. So the head nodding is unusual. I suppose one could argue that he is going over in his mind what he just said. And it's almost as though he's in agreement or satisfied with what he just uttered. But that's pure conjecture. One of the things you can look at is the increase in the speed of chewing. If you speed it up, you'll see what I mean. Now, that's not indicative of deception, but it is indicative of trying to relieve the stress that follows what he just said. And I think it could have been said better than Joe said it. And that's all I got. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, lovely. Okay, what I see is his hands leaving frame or almost leaving frame, which is a bigger gesture than we've normally seen him do. The cop next to him now, I think is literally revolted by him. There's some nausea going on with him. When his hand comes over, he looks away, he shifts away. The shotgun comes up again. I think clearly that the journey to the house is important. The shotgun is important. The nodding, I would agree, whether it means anything. I wouldn't agree with Joe that there's a self-soothe. And a self-soothe around is my story working? Is this good for me? Is this going to work out right for me? Because I think he's got an officer next to him who he can see is revolted. We see the perpetrator here, or potential perpetrator, show disgust when they look over and see the officer revolted, so they know it's going badly for them at this point. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right. When she asked him about his son, the way his son's laying, again, like Greg was saying, no emotion. He still hasn't teared up and still not using that Kleenex. And then after the second question, there's so much space before anybody says anything that's when he starts talking and starts using or adding qualifiers and trying to tighten the story up, trying to make it sound more believable and make it sound stronger. Then when she asked him which way he came in, his illustrators get huge. This is the biggest he's used so far. The other ones were okay, but he hasn't used a lot of illustrators, but they get really big maybe because he's thinking about her back there, and that's why he's doing that to illustrate for her. But they've been extremely limited up to this point. His voice volume is more relaxed. He gets quieter. He looks and sounds more relaxed because I think he feels like everything's going well because he's under the impression those officers believe him. And that guy sitting next to him, that police officer sitting next to him, he starts pushing on us. Well, let's go around with his lip. He's uncomfortable. He knows this, is it right? He knows something's not right about this, but he's playing at school as he could possibly do it. But his body language tells on him, like Joan de Varro says, you can have a poker face, but you can't have a poker body. And that's what we're seeing there. He's doing all these little things that this guy, if he had no one to look for like you do now, then he would say, whoops, I got to start adding some more qualifiers to my answer. So I think they know pretty much. And again, if you'll keep an eye on that, the woman in the back, that police officer in the back, watch her throughout this. Now that I know this other guy is in a copper, I'm under the impression that he isn't. She just really starts going against this guy. She starts scooching away. I'm going to look at her from the beginning then to the end to see how far away she's scooched away now that we know that. I think she's uncomfortable with him. Not horribly uncomfortable, but he keeps eyeing her notes and seeing what she's writing down. But he probably believes this guy. You know, he probably believes Alex. So anyway, that's all I got. We good? Yeah. This one's hard. But when you first saw Paul, you said you tried to flip him over. Was he laying on his back or on his stomach? Just like he is. So you weren't able to move him. Okay. No, ma'am. Okay. And did he help Maggie a lot out here with the animals? He helped everybody with everything. Okay. So it was kind of routine for him to be out here as well in the evening? This place is his absolute passion. Okay. I tried to turn him and then I checked him and I mean, I think I already knew, but I checked him. And when you first pulled into the property, did you come from this direction where all our police cars are or which way did you come in? I went to the house. Okay. And then I came from the house straight here. Yes, ma'am. Okay. I mean, where my vehicle was parked is probably... Is where it was. Okay. Well, no, maybe not exactly, but it was pretty close because I came back the same route. That's right, because you went back to get your shotgun. When I came back. So up to this point, Mark, what do you think we've been seeing? Yeah, I've never seen anybody so cool in this situation. I think, I don't know where we are in the case right now on this in court, but I'm going to assume that something is going to come up around the journey to the house. The shotgun is clearly important within this. I'm going to research a little bit more on this extraordinary situation of the high school kid and the Navy SEALs and the Black Panthers. It's exciting, exciting story. Chase. Well, this so far is a video I know for a fact that I'm going to be using for training. And I'm no expert on the case or forensics or any of the facts of the case, but I'm a behavior expert. And I think that we're going to see this play out in court, much like it did here in the car with the officers. It's going to be a very similar thing where the tells are going to be very similar. The baseline is going to be very similar. And I think the tells are going to repeat themselves in court. I don't think he's been on the stand yet. I'm not, I don't know much about the case. Greg has given me most of my education about this case, which is very little. Yeah, but it seems like maybe some stress in his life caused some sort of psychotic break of some sort that made this happen. But I don't know, Greg. Yeah, I don't know what's causing it. I don't know any of that. Let me tell you, when we talk about baseline, we're talking about normal at the moment. You need only to watch these videos to see great examples. The one, if you go back where he says, wonderful two different ways is a great indicator of why body language matters. But more importantly, if you listen to everything he says throughout this, you'll hear him with a lot, a lot, a lot of detail about insignificant events and nothing when it matters. When you ask him what he did today, boom, he goes to the phone. He's trying to make a record and prove what he's done. However, if you ask him a question about what's on sale at the Dollar General, guarantee it, he knows. He'll give you all the details about that. That is disturbing alone. So too much detail when it doesn't matter, not enough when it does. And massive loud flags, red flags, every flag you can imagine when it comes to why did you come out here today? Did you have a shotgun? Are there guns out here? All those pertinent areas, we see massive shifts in body language. We see that butterflying. We see tapping feet. We see touching face. We see shrinking. You name it. This is almost like we have a glossary and we're saying, hey, would you do this for us? And he's a trained shrimp. Scott, what do you got? I think this is a great example so far of not seeing things. We're trying to show you what to look for. But at the same time, this is a great example of the things that we're not seeing that you should be seeing. So in other words, you're looking for things you're not seeing. And so we're not seeing the emotion we should be seeing. We're not seeing the proper rocking we should be seeing with the hands ringing and the crying and things that those things are missing. All right, fellas, I think this is another good one. And we'll see you next time. Chase, what do you got? I'm beginning to flip. You're doing a little bit like him, Chase. See, I started to look like him, too. Oh, that's funny. All right, we can wait just three time. Oh, let it all this out. Nobody will ever see this. Man, those bars are really dense. It's like chewing a whole bag of gummy bears. We'll wait. Yeah, three time. For anyone watching, I just want you to make note of Scott's condescending eyebrow raise. Space line. Go ahead. You ready? Sure, if you're ready. All right. Right here in the beginning. I'll take it out.