 Welcome to the Divock-Britian Bubbles panel. Jürgen and I are going to co-moderate. There's no breakout room or extended Q&A afterwards, so just ask away if you have questions. There's a pad where you can ask your questions. Now I want to welcome the panellists. First, Manuel Atok, alias Honkaze. You might have heard his keynote about war in the Ukraine, bombs instead of cyber. He's been working in information security for more than 23 years and he's concerned with topics like hackbacks or catastrophe protection. Welcome, Honkaze. Next, I'm happy to greet Peter Weitering, who's a science journalist and has worked in this field for more than 20 years and he's studied philosophy himself. Welcome, Peter. So André is not just the good spirit of our community, he's also a data protectionist and he lived through the downfall of the Soviet Union and he informed himself quite well about this topic and we're in a situation right now where many people are doing something, are becoming active and we would like to show some perspectives. Well, this is going to be difficult to generalize if you want to become active. Keeping up means of communication is crucial. For example, journalistic work contributes to that. Building bridges to Ukraine and Russia and keeping up the crucial operations. There's a network but it has become more difficult because some connections have been severed and it's all the more important to create alternatives and keep them running from the technical perspective. In order to do something, become active and help in these times of war. Honka, is there anything you want to add? Yes. Something you can do very generally. Ukrainians have called for help in the cyber realm offensively as well as defensively. My recommendation, don't do that. Don't act against the population. Don't hack civil infrastructure. This is not to downplay the war but this is just the wrong means. It's rather about supporting infrastructure in Ukraine instead of destroying things with brutal violence. So try to construct things instead of destroying them. You can also act as a point of contact and you can also give counseling. Not many people may be able to do that on such a high level to all the others. I've got another tip. So if you just hack something because it looks Russian and in the end you even hit or target a German or Ukrainian infrastructure so my tip is be cautious, be sensible. You can research, you can search and you can contribute to informing people, creating awareness, reaching out and also counteracting fake news. This is something everyone can do and that is really constructive instead of destructive. Counteract hate speech and the propaganda machine and if that doesn't help just make memes. Because sometimes humor is also important because the world is watching right now. The man will be punished in the end but as long as the world is watching we need communication and we need awareness. So there's also a war in our heads and this is something you can also counteract with memes. Thank you, Hongkazer. This is a good keyword. There was just this Russian flagship that was destroyed and there was also a cracker meme. Andrei, anything you want to add to that? Well, first of all, I agree with both standpoints which is through it from Hongkazer and Peter. But it's also important, I may add, that there is a civil society still in Ukraine. Russians have always been good at Organisation but it was still each to their own and God for all. And today, within Ukraine, there's a lot of interlinks and networks, so there's possibilities within Ukraine. So you can support them with money instead of buying drugs, for example, and medications. So dedicated aid is very good. And still, you have to concentrate your efforts where they make sense and use your skills accordingly. So this is something else that you can do also very important counteract fake news, become active if you see fake news, debunk myths because so many people have no idea what is going on and they just absorb any news they get in good faith. And sometimes you have to interact and intervene. We still have a long way ahead of us in this regard. Thank you very much. So I would like to broaden this first part. So it's not just about acting against Russia but also how can we use civil means to help the Ukrainian people and also, secondarily, the Russian people. We've talked about information and informing and donations. Is there anything else that we could do as CCC, any structures we could create? I don't currently have access to the Ukrainian civil society. There was a time when you could just randomly choose a restaurant in Russia and then write something on their website. I don't think that will work. And I believe that it really matters what happens in Ukraine right now. First, the people there do speak Russian and we can't. Then they know the system. And thirdly, I don't know what you could do otherwise but what you should not do definitely is to disrespect the Russians that are here. That is completely out of order. Whatever the name of the Russian restaurant around the corner, it's not their fault what Russia is doing. And to simply abuse these people just because they speak Russian is the worst thing you could do. So on the contrary, I know people here that are simply ashamed because they are Russian. You should help these people. You should stand by them and tell them that it's not their fault. And tell them to cooperate. Do they have friends in Russia that you could reach out to? Could you kind of help these people access the Internet or something? That's only the first thing. But just to disrespect these people is the most stupid thing you can do. Otherwise, I have no other idea right now. Let's see what the others have to say. Maybe we could even extend this thought a bit and maybe reach out to those Russians that want to escape from Russia or that have gone into exile already. And maybe some of these RIT people and they might have some things that they can help you to help with. Or maybe they might need a visa or something. Well, we are networked. We are international. And I believe, yeah, that is something that you should do. Yeah, sorry. I speak a little Turkish and I happen to be in Egypt at the time. So that's what I will do right now. Hongkase, it would make sense if you could switch to talk because your background noise is quite strong. That would be great. Okay, I will switch off the microphone when I'm not talking. So I'll just briefly put in what I have to say. What I can say. First of all, Andre, very important. The restaurant thing. That's a good thought. But of course, a good thought badly implemented is bad. To inform is important. And the bad idea was to communicate hatred because that won't work, as you said. Because these people have been living off propaganda for decades. I was in the Soviet Union for a long time. And in the last 23 years or more than that, I have been in Russia and Kazakhstan for my job that I had for 23 years. And the people are having a hard time there. For decades, they haven't had a real life there. And they are being manipulated to the extreme. And to then just abuse people who happen to run a restaurant, that won't have any effect. If you write a restaurant review, that won't help at all. Ideally, you would put yourself into their position and then try to change something. So this kind of opportunism went the wrong way. What you as a hacker could do, one example only, what Snowflake does to help people reach free information from the Western sphere and maybe awaken them. We had pro-Russian people in Berlin, of course. Yes, that happens, but that must not be representative of the Russian community. So in that regard, you shouldn't tell all these people with the same brush. Thank you, Hongkazer. Peter, do you have anything to contribute from your current journalistic background, another proposal maybe? The Snowflake is very important. Yes, that seems to me the preferred way of just keeping the contact going to colleagues, too. And we should do everything we can, as has been said, as Andrei said, to keep the mood from tipping. Of course, it's dangerous to now portray Russia as the rogue state and in extension, all Russians as rogues. The political discussions we've seen really shocked me when the German Agency for Information Security warned people off from using Kaspersky software. That may be a point, but that doesn't affect Kaspersky as a whole, if they had been warning, if they had warned of any anti-barrows software, it would have made sense. But in this shortened way, it's complete nonsense. And what I heard from colleagues was that a quote from Kostin Rayo, the analyst by Kaspersky, was rejected simply by the fact that he is Russian. So are we now going to cancel this person? There was a program when I included a quote from him where not many people contacted and said, reached out and said, why did you quote this Kaspersky representative? Are there no independent voices? But this is an informed person and he is independent and he's good. So we have to be very much, we have to very much promote a differentiated point of view. And we have to do the same in Ukraine as well because the media in Ukraine that we had, even after 2014, before that it was very drastic, after 2014 in parts, was very much characterized by oligarchs. And here it wasn't a paradise of press freedom either. You need to differentiate and look at the individual detail that I think is a very important decision that we should take. Yeah, I think that at the moment the most important thing is to avoid further polarization. There is this gap that should not be widened. I spent, I was in Russia only once. Six years ago I spent a week in St. Petersburg. A friend of mine was with me who was fluent in Russian and he was in the spa with me and introduced us and told everyone that we both speak English and the first person that talked to me said the following, why do you hate Putin? So he didn't say good evening or anything. He immediately wanted to get into a debate about that. And that is a very widespread view, I thought. That was my impression at the time. I, as a German, a European, a EU person, I would be confronted with this prejudice that we would all be hating Putin and that we are the evil people and so on. So that as a precondition was striking and how do we get Ukraine to win and how do we stop Russia from existing? No, that's not it. The point, what we need to try is to take a step back and stop hating each other and we can only do that by improving understanding. Would it perhaps help if maybe not those that do hacking but maybe journalists or people that have contacts? Maybe could they report more from Russia what voices exist there so that we hear more voices than just the official ones? I believe that is a bit too short. Yes, of course it would help initially to report from Russia since the new media law is very difficult. So you have to accept a few compromises. We keep experiencing that. And I think this started much earlier. We note a certain tendency in journalism and that is, for example, I saw that very one-sided. So I remember the election campaign in 2012. Putin put up large banners on construction sites in the streets whenever anything was reported. It was the great patriotic war that he was doing his promotion with. And this was kind of portrayed as a, well, almost make Russia great again attitude and that wasn't appropriate. And the tendency... We didn't really report about this very much in Germany. What happened in Ukraine after the Maidan protests? From which buildings, with which weapons people were shot at on the square, that wasn't reported on. In 2014, from Odessa, when pro-Russian activists in a trade union building were in a trade union building, that was set on fire and many people died and others were beaten to death. Again, we didn't report on that properly. So we do apparently tend to... I've seen that now as well in this war of aggression. We seem to tend to simply put ourselves on that one side of the good and we can no longer report in a balanced way. And I don't know what to do and I'm kind of happy to be approaching retirement because I don't know how to correct this. I think we simply lost a lot of trust as far as our users are concerned, our audience. And of course we could have now raised a large appeal. Please report in a more balanced way and take a closer look at the details. There's nothing to do, but if that would help, I am not sure at all. Yeah, that's very sad, but true. In many respects we were kind of asleep and that is now coming back to haunt us and we have... Germany has been very close to Russia and we have overlooked Ukraine in the past too. Ukraine is a damage that is quite heavy that we have inflicted on ourselves, but maybe we will be able to kind of extend our view and maybe see... Can the people maybe see more and can we rebuild that trust? Maybe, Andrew, you've spent a long time living in Russia. Do you have any ideas? Well, Hongkaz made this point. This is Hongkaz, I would like to add another point. We have to accept... Does the audio work? It's a bad line. There's one point we have to consider. Peter is very right in what he said. What I'm very angry about... Recently I heard Annalena Baerbock with an opinion and she was quite right in what she said, but the old white men around her kind of ignored what she said and that is exactly what I as an expert have seen a lot. You can tell all the experts things that are logically deduced from expertise and these people just brush it off. We have seen that in so many scenarios when it comes to natural disasters, climate change, the question of oil policy, we have to reach a state to look at the causes and tackle them and those that have expertise are not considered and not regarded and others simply ignore what is said. So we as a community would like to make a change. So we should function as a community and the community should listen to each other and experts should be listened to. And on that basis then politics should be made. That doesn't happen, I think, it's a very bad problem that really should change. Thank you. I completely agree with that, but I have to add that the biggest enemy is ignorance. I see that we do not know much about Russia or nothing about Russia and I see that the Russians do not know about us. You have mentioned a very good example. This is an absolute classic. When Putin had his appearance in the stadium with the winter coat and all that, the Western media was simply getting enraged about the cost of the coat that he wore and whatever price of other clothing that he wore. And that is completely off topic. The Russians see the Tsar or Putin, it's not a democracy there, so you have the highest representative and he represents us all. Just see what this man can afford and to attack this man according to the Russian self-image is completely out of sorts. He may talk nonsense, but the Russians don't know that we know why he is talking nonsense. So there is a huge gap where a lot of work is required to overcome it. And just as we have seen this with the old white cis men, we won't get rid of this problem. Peter is approaching retirement. I am in retirement. You have some time ahead of you still. So joke aside, it's not a thing that you can do immediately and there is toxic masculinity in Ukraine. Abundantly, if I look at the person that helps out in my household, I see that attitude. So it's not that easy. So it's not easy to simply solve it all in one go. There are many, many small steps. Take more interest, listen, build bridges between the communities. What we as a community could do is to try and link to Haka communities in Ukraine and maybe Russia to promote understanding. Maybe run an event together. Maybe go to Donbas. That would be dangerous at the moment. Maybe not now, but you know where I am going. I can see it at the border where I live. The border to Croatia. I was on holiday where the Italians were still the evil people. And if I go to Tyrol in northern Italy now, the German-speaking region, everyone speaks Italian. Rome is far away. We're fine as we are. And now I am in Carinthia at the border to Slovenia. Just behind the house, we have the border which opened much later. So I am still being attacked in Carinthia because I was driving a car with a Croatian number plate. And the reactions I got in the capital of Carinthia, Klagenfurt. So this is not about Ukraine and Putin. This is very local. So there's a lot to do. Never let go, never relent. Keep on pushing. I don't know if everyone in the audience knows what snowflake is. Maybe we should explain a good idea. But I would like to first connect to the thought that you introduced. We can come to snowflake later because that is a question that we have in the panel description. It's very hard to imagine with the aggression that we have right now. How can we help to start a process of reconciliation? I thought the example you mentioned was very good, the Austrian example with the two all in northern Italy. And we have a similar thing with France and Germany that we experienced. There used to be arch enemies and now maybe we'll have the election soon. What will change there? We don't know. But we have large partners in the EU and now animosity seems unthinkable and a lot of things have happened on a small scale. So maybe we can start things on a small scale and as soon as the drastic situation we have now is over and the certain calm has started, maybe that's what we can do. I believe we have to start earlier. In this situation we need to push that weapons are not seen as the only option. That seems to dominate the public discussion right now. But of course next to defense and self-defense those communication channels need to stay open and that talking must be offered again and again. And I think if we bring this into the German public then NATO is also more pushed towards talking and have more activity and more focus on talks. As far as I know right now in the headquarters nobody is interested in talking right now. The other question is if talking right now is possible right now. Of course I am far away but what I see is that it's just performer and Russia is not really interested. Yeah, that's what I read as well when the chancellor was there. But what my colleagues from Moscow told me is that public opinion? Of course just part of the Russian public is just an anecdote. But what they noticed is that someone wants to talk to us. Not just weapons are sent against us but there is someone who is interested in us. And that seems to be a start. Yeah, McCore also still had phone calls. In this context we should say well with Putin we apparently can't really talk right now. But there is more than just one level of channels to the lower levels. His friends or well people that you might know in Russia keep talking to them. I think that is way more important to Russian leader. I don't think he wants to talk right now. He has announced it for 20 years and now he is just doing it. Ankaza did you want to say something? You look like it? Well I agree with two of them. It is critical to keep communication open. We can't just cancel it, that won't work. We have to communicate and exchange. And not communicating is also a form of communication and that's not helpful. We have to keep talking otherwise we'll just have to keep sending weapons. Well the question that I'm interested in in this context is when do we stop talking? When is it enough if civilians are shot in the open street and as soon as that happens I'm not talking that's a position that I understand but it's still wrong. It's still wrong because there's 180 million Russians and not all of them are in Ukraine and shoot. We can't annihilate Russia that would make us just as wrong as they are. And the country has to be rebuilt and we will need the people and work to stop talking to Russia is wrong. Even if they are evil at the moment we talked to other evil people before if they give us oil or and we don't have to assume that in Congo things are better but it's far away we've never been there they don't have cars and they're not coming here with their children. No, that's not true my emotion is overwhelming but it's just wrong. I would also say we have to keep talking and keep telling them that it's not okay what they're doing and about the weapon deliveries I would wish to think things through and to listen to the experts who say what worth is a tank delivered to Ukraine without teaching them to use it and things like that and you would have to teach people there teach them how to to keep an unworking condition and how we maybe just escalating the war and that's a discussion that's a bit neglected in my opinion yeah, I agree and I want to also to add to the point when do we stop talking I get the intention but it should be the other way around we need to keep talking in peace time and always we need to stay in the discussion if we don't do that then we are setting the scene for bad things to happen so we can't ask when do we stop we always have to keep talking stopping communication is the wrong way we always have to keep it yeah, just how you said we need to stay in the discussion with all of them we can't pause other things we shouldn't pause other things yeah, I agree but right now I have to deal with a huge group of 14 year olds 8 graders and 5 of those tell me I want to go to Ukraine I want to fight they only transport what their parents are telling them or what they get from media and that is something that's promoted by the discussion sending weapons and I wonder how do we get in there to bring back logic and thinking and bring it back into the discussion so we don't have to have these discussions here but there where it's happening there are options you don't have to go to Kiev you can't go to Poland my sister, her daughter they went to Poland and just take care of of animals of pets of pets that were left at the borders there are 5 million Ukrainians fleeing and there are people who are really suffering and need help and they need clothes they need food they need psychological help you don't have to stay in Germany but what do you want to do in Kiev? you're not a soldier you don't know the language you can't fight it's absurd you just have to tell them it's absurd I think it's even more from what Joko told us Putin has propaganda he said that dehumanizes in Germany we had a phase as well where propaganda was pushed very strongly maybe we should work towards showing that on the other side there are humans as well he saw them as humans before especially between Ukraine and Russia maybe we should focus on everyone is still human and not everyone is Nazi or a bad person yeah though I do have to say I told it yesterday before when they say Nazi they don't mean the same thing we mean the great fatherland war is the second world war and the defense of the nation in this context Nazi is a keyword for bad people that has nothing to do with a political idea so yeah they have different definitions for Nazis Hongkase? yeah similar they have weird ideas or different definitions they have a completely different culture so I know quite a few cultures in Europe in Israel, in the US, in Canada and I was in Kiev a few dozen times so sometimes they say the same word but mean something different and we have to synchronize and have to adapt to each other what are we talking about and we cannot simply do that with the one person with the one leader we have to do that with all 180 million and that's what many people like to forget because of course in Russia there are certainly a lot of people who have weird thinking and twisted thinking but that's the same in Germany and all over Europe we have the so called anti-vaxxers and all of those groups so before we can point the fingers and say yeah there's so terrible people over there well so are here there's fake news there's algorithms dividing us we have a pandemic we are still in a pandemic and those two years caused a lot of depression and people are suffering still all of us suffered a lot these two years and now on top this war so every time when there's a catastrophe there's another one so it's N plus one catastrophes now and we have to work on those but after all those catastrophes before we can master the situation we need to have the discussion what do we mean if we use this and that word because we want to live together ideally I would like peace for everyone because it doesn't help anyone if we promote more weapons and destroy the world there's the cyber war that is none everyone talks about the cyber war there's rockets and bombs there is Kalashnikovs and machine guns and we keep talking about cyber war that's a completely different wrong image so we need to get back to living together and discuss how to get the peace back and with the different languages and different perspectives that's the challenge but yeah we have to get started but I also would say we need to address the civilians who suddenly became olive green so militarized version of green or pacifist or supposedly pacifist and suddenly support war and support acts of war that can't be declared explained anymore yeah and now there is someone who proposed that we should maybe think about a preemptive strike before Putin uses atomic weapons tell me more about the people who became more marshal and I talk about with civilians on the 24th of February there was the attack and everyone was shocked of course and then people thought well what can we do and then there was the discussion that turned from defense and simple defense weapons and of course there is already dual use and then the discussion turned to weapons that the Ukraine needs at the moment to defend themselves or resist the attack and then this discussion about attacking turned to a discussion well we need win against Russia in this war and I think in our civic society we have to we have to think about what can we what can we really justify and of course we have to think strategically and we have to work with the politics but just as we for many years had this one-sidedness in the discussion that there might be people who are critical of Russia not only in Ukraine but other countries and Russia was excused in many cases now the pendulum swings in the other direction and 2012 I was beaten because I was critical of Putin because he was always referencing the patriotic war the Second World War in his election the same people are arguing against me because I am saying well keep in mind that of course Russia has justified interests in this as well and once it's no longer possible to talk about this we are stumbling into well I would quote it we might stumble back into war but in this case of course other countries have justified interests in safety as well Russia does but other countries as well and we have to consider all of them Sweden, Finland that they change their positions might be understandable even though that makes it more difficult for Russia definitely that Finland changes position is completely understandable if we now think we just have to beat Russia then that moves in a bad direction I think in unhealthy direction I think about this and this is more the meta level Germany has screwed up twice historically and of course that brings the discussion that we see internationally as well we can't attack, we are not able but we have to be able to defend what does that mean and again we need to be resilient we need to be able to defend ourselves we need to be on high level but that does not mean that we have to be able to attack so yeah attacking anyone not extremely but we are optimized on defense but defense is also using weapons and maybe we should bring this mindset to other countries we don't have to cyber everything already and destroy everything need heavy attack weapons that's the wrong way and I think we have the role to say people we messed up twice and now we learn from that and you should as well and probably people won't say well Germans are so wise and Germany is so wise but we have this responsibility we can prove we have decades of history we did it like this why don't you and if people become a bit less offensive we might secure peace for decades and that would be a good thing for us yeah I agree in principle but at the moment a part of Russia where Russia is moving into Ukraine aggressively has invaded parts of Ukraine has committed atrocities which we can't judge before we've seen them but they would need to take parts of the country back no it's defense because they've been attacked and they are defending their territory up to its borders that's absolutely legitimate if parts of Germany were being annexed we would also be in our right to defend those parts of the country this isn't a contradiction and I'm not talking about the current issue but I'm talking about well in times of peace we have to make decisions and have diplomatic talks have preventative measures this is what I meant so yeah on the military side you have to have the aggressive potential it's not possible no there aren't weapons that are strictly defensive that's true if I'm making a defense strategy of course sometimes you have to also be aggressive but it's very important to keep in mind that this Ukraine conflict is not new it was created on February 24 we've had it for 8 years and in these 8 years we just try to close our eyes and not see this conflict and there are possibilities to solve this conflict peacefully and they've been chances have just been given away yeah some people are saying we've had peace for 8 years not everywhere but yeah peace as much as in Afghanistan right that's well we in Germany we had 8 years of peace yeah we've had 65 years of peace in Germany so it's unfair no there are in purely defensive weapons Ukrainians have to have the possibility to take back part of the country that we're annexed by Russia but taking atomic bombs to defend yourself that's taking it too far also with this discussion about arms there are old NVA weapons from the former GDR army and Germany is not hesitating to exporting weapons that are old and used but not new weapons and also Ukraine took more than 2,000 tanks from Russia in Germany we still have that reflex from the 30s that well since Stalin we know what is up in Russia and you can see how the German chancellor is hesitating himself yeah you have to also look at the domestic situation in Germany and yeah you also have to look at the situation in Russia when we're talking about sanctions we also need to be talking about sanctions that hurt Crimea and that hurt Putin right now and cutting off networks does hurt them but I've also heard the argument that parts of Conti of that they're telling their friends that the ransomware business is going down and this is an approach this is an approach that we should extend well if I was being cynical I could say if we had an embargo on oil and gas then then people should maybe well Germans would have to accept a speed limit and stuff like that yeah I understand the thought but if we're turning down the radiators we won't solve the problem if you tell the elementary industry well you need to survive on less gas so just maybe dial down the business a bit so our food production would be lowered they will have a lot of problems so we would have to create solutions now on how to prepare and that takes us to the issue of resilience resilience means that you can resist and you need to build up the resistance first before you impose embargoes or sanctions and I'm still waiting for that resistance and resilience to be built and we're lacking a public discussion about that and a debate I see another point there especially about the energy embargo that is proposed if people here are affected have to drive slower which I don't have a problem with or freeze in winter which would only affect poor people unfortunately there are many voices that are identical to those who've been very divisive before and they're trying to break up mechanisms to for example the welcoming culture and I'm afraid that our mood might collapse like it did in 2015 so what can we do against that as Hongkazer says we need to build up structures and this is not something that can be done overnight and we need preliminary solutions and we need to see what kind of sanctions we can impose with the intermediate solutions that we've found and this puts pressure on Kramel so this might be then we could maybe even support producing less food so we need to check the prerequisites for certain sanctions we need to see how we can bring that into the diplomatic discussions and I'm quite sure that people being unhappy that is very dangerous to Kremlin that's a great danger to them I agree Andrei let me get optophic a little bit you just used a word that we probably all correctly understood I've been criticized by the community I used the N word in the context of Africa please don't understand that as my personal opinion I was trying to imitate someone who would be saying something like that excuse me I'm old I might need some more time yeah I would like to look at the resilience and structures and what we can do as a community because we are a strong community is there anything we can do or are we doing what we can do already well of course there's things we can do we can make ourselves less corrupt but so far that hasn't resulted in a better system for reporting security gaps so we're relying on chance a lot Hongkazi you're nodding yes a critical infrastructure isn't something that people constantly monitor and keep in mind but it's all symptomatic we should attack the root cause and why there are mechanisms and infrastructures that can be improved on working with critical infrastructures a lot there's few people who really try and see how we can build autogenous infrastructure for example energy infrastructure such as solar panels and it's really expensive but it's really difficult to do that on your own and there's very few independent energy production cycles in Germany and a friend of mine said that sometimes batteries have to be added and in case of problems it's very difficult to debug and find the problem and we shouldn't wonder why things like that aren't working we haven't built the foundations for autogenous energy systems and we don't promote this kind of thing instead we're buying gas for millions of dollars from Russia and then starting to invest in cyber war instead of doing that we should be investing in resilient structures and sustainable energy so production halls there's so many possibilities how they could be optimized with sustainable and renewable energies so where is this progress because we need it it should have been here years ago we're just in a panel and to me as someone who's concerned with that professionally I'm speechless and I'm really annoyed how people are lining their own pockets instead of investing in the community well sustainable infrastructure doesn't have shareholder value and also we've accustomed ourselves to a certain carelessness and the problem we're seeing right now right now we're very limited in our discussions because we're just talking about evil Russia all the time so no matter how the satiation in Eastern Europe will evolve well before that everything was well right yeah let's just forget about climate change as well then maybe you can tackle the same more than one crisis at once with the same measures well maybe we can even have a cyber war but in reality it's very different but you're right it's a big bundle of measures and carelessness is truly the issue yeah and this is why we have those problems and this is how we got to you and we need to get away from here those systems are so complex and the sanctions against Russia are also impacting ourselves we have to take into account how big the interlinks and the network it really is so sanctions will hurt us and that's no longer possible we can't look at it separately it is so enmeshed we can't look at individual parts of the puzzle anymore because there's black holes that might cause serious consequences yeah well we could now think whether we should try to support transparency in particular regarding financial transactions and there's been a lot of sleeping and many interested parties to do not want that transparency otherwise and of course it could always affect both sides couldn't it and it's also the interest of the accumulations of capital that have grown and grown that transparency does not happen and these gaps are actively being created I have experienced this we have a renovation program at home and windows have been replaced and the replacement of the windows and all that five different involved parties and no one knows what the other party is doing and if someone does something that the other party doesn't like then it all is brought to a standstill and someone somewhere is responsible but that person at the moment and so on and it's this kind of Russian door system and now a lack of communication and also the financial transactions the that always leads to a situation of abuse of people lining their own pockets and people looking for control and power would lead to more power and power in the end is always for sale and often people don't even speak the same language if I say I'm not going to abuse my power and the other person might say I don't know maybe something maybe I've improved a little bit this transparency of course would help and with a power transparency power structures cannot be made completely transparent but as far as possible you might achieve some kind of self-correction and work against the escalating concentration if you look at Trump I don't want to know what would have happened if he had been in power right now so again abuse of power and lack of transparency and people wanting to call in a commission first no thank you I would like to arc back to Ukraine because we are ahead in time and see if there's any way that we can help see the society in Ukraine something that is less critical of the system but more practical maybe there are approaches that you could mention Peter you're nodding yes that is a good point so aid that is required and still being required and the people that have taken refuge welcome these people put them, house them, feed them and integrate them because this will not be gone in six months time that's the argument that I keep hearing and don't restrict this to Ukraine either these structures for giving aid and communication, information apply these to the people in Russia as well and don't forget them yes and maybe we should in those last 10 minutes that we have maybe we should come back to snowflake it will be helpful yes okay who would like to start I will start the Tor network is a anonymization network that was created specifically to work in totalitarian states and let people communicate in situations where they would normally be in danger strangely financed by DARPA which gets US government money but it's a total freedom still but they do depend on, I don't have to guarantee the technical details, they do depend on many many relays operating throughout the world so that you cannot recognize from where the communication is coming and these relays keep being attacked or blocked and with snowflake there's a small extension that you can run with in your own browser at home, I think it's has to be firefox or derivative I'm not sure but you can read it up in Wikipedia this interpreter knows it can be firefox or chromium you open a tab, let it run it doesn't take away from you from your experience I have it open here and every day I see between 10 and 20 people using my small and using it to enable their communication without people looking over their shoulders did I mistake anything? no, this is very true internet relations via talk is the only way for me right now to communicate with people in Russia and get information from them and it also has to be said in Russia there still is a civil society that can deliver videos or documents to us journalists so that we can keep reporting and report about things happening in Butcher a few things that happen on the day of the invasion on 24th of February to actually investigate these things and to have clean sources and evidence and these people of course work with a high risk on the ground there because many of the Kremlin people do not like people in their government workplace in the military for example who receive a video sending that on towards the west so we have to get the information out there's not many people that can do this but they still exist, it has to be said and we must not forget them and I think about 20% a vague estimate and of course money, money, money the whole thing costs money, it has to be said these small infrastructures too so all the stuff that is being bombarded and destroyed there's no food no drink, no clothing no diapers nappies, no hygiene products for women nothing so don't simply buy stuff and put it there, give them the money because these people know what to do with that money I can only repeat money, money, money sorry I can completely support that and you can choose which way you want to do this it's your choice, this is the classical means which is still in front but still also the specific groups like medicine sans frontiers doctors without borders I just want to mention which I couldn't hear so the artisan crafts people sorry, impossible audio so these people need money to do their work and in doubt if you know the people that live in Ukraine maybe send these people money ask them and almost each of these everyone knows somewhere where money is needed, they may have an account I was talking to the owner of an IT company software development company who is from Ukraine and he had organized a donation account and almost the whole company was giving money to the programmers working in Ukraine so they made sure that their wages were donated so that these people could look after their families and get to safety and these people were not told not to program anymore but to and these people would also bring the aid into Ukraine themselves so there is always someone who is right in the middle of things and if you do not have such personal relationships donate to people that know where the money is needed and which aid is needed where and this is about there is the prejudice if I give money then someone will just put it into their pockets well, currently aid is needed and the only way to get it is through donations we have about 5 minutes left and I would like to give everyone a chance to give a concluding statement and I will start with Andrei ok, so to conclude I would again like to apologize for the N-word, it slipped out because I am trying to be dramatic in the way I portray people and that was not good in this context that is the one thing and as far as Ukraine is concerned it will not be resolved in a matter of days or weeks it will be a long bloody path and of course we will have to get rid of Putin in the long run but neither, none of us here will be able to do this privately not Hongkaz, not Peter, not me what we talked about here is all important these are all building blocks that are important and well I don't know why religious I would ask you to pray just try to make the world a better place just be stupidly nice to people out there if you hear people speak Russian do not attack them, ask them see where they come from maybe they are not Russian at all maybe they are Ukrainian, you may not know so be a bit more aware, be mindful thank you I will connect to Andrei if I were religious I would say pray well, let's turn it around if you don't pray then talk to each other I cannot repeat it often enough communication is key without communication nothing will work so approach people, talk to them let's enter into joint action give aid start an aid organization there is a dynamic there I have been involved in this so get active talk to people approach people, say I am doing things I have reasons and that will lead to concrete actions maybe you can get some intelligence somewhere and everyone might say ok great action, I will get involved so keep talking be it on the political level in diplomatic circles maybe company, boards talking to each other and privately install snowflake just the people whose computers you look after tell them ok I am going to update computer and install snowflake on it and talk to them and these people might say oh someone was thinking about the war there I cannot say no to that and that will trigger them and start them thinking and make them do good things so I can only say talk to each other about the situation do good things we cannot undo what has happened we cannot prevent things but by talking about it we will keep it in people's awareness and maybe change the world this way thank you Peter and please do not forget this war of aggression is not the only war that we have on this globe at the moment yes very true we have had this for at least 30 years we have accepted this and these are wars that are far away now we have a war in Europe but let's remind ourselves of the Yugoslav wars there have been developments that we simply looked away from and we started defining the situation as normal for us and maybe this is a point to start this war could be used as an occasion to remind ourselves as civil society if there is war we have to get going with a long term based politics to prevent further wars from happening and that was not a party political statement thank you thank you to three panellists but there are more people out there that I would like to thank and these are the very hardworking angels in the background the fact that there have been translations there was the care studio in Hamburg and everyone that was working in the background everyone that took place in the communication in the pad and helped us inspired us with their questions there is not going to be a breakout room and we will continue at quarter to nine in 15 minutes with our evening program and there are better last is working 3D okay thank you a warm thank you