 Hi. I'm Jam. I do several things. I have a really cool title at a company that's been a real privilege to be part of since 2008. I was the 18th Aquian. And the evangelist title means that I'm in marketing, I do communications stuff, is that interviews, podcasts, writing things. And depending on the conference I might be speaking at, sometimes it's innovation and evangelist and sometimes it's developer relations and sometimes it's open source and what have you. It's a great catch-all for some really nice activities and I tend to, you know, personally what interests me is the context of technology, why we do it, what is it delivered for us. That's my thing. So very active, online, pretty easy to find. There are more than 200 interviews I've done there with people in and around Drupal open source, lots of different aspects of that. And yeah, please ping me online, follow me on Twitter. I'm very noisy there. It's great. Now, everyone, I would like a gigantic warm Drupalcon welcome from my friend Matthias all the way here from Düsseldorf, Germany because I asked him if he'd come and do this thing with me. Yeah, for whatever reason. So cheers. I'm Matthias. I'm a CEO of type of three, which is a type of three. So maybe people don't know we're the competition, much in the sense how doctors without borders are competing with, you know, like the Red Cross kind of thing, because we're still in open source, also GPL. And I have a history of like about 17 years in open source right now. That's the Twitter handle. And this is basically all the information you need about me because I'm not interesting anyways. So we want to give you a short outline of what the session is about because we've known each other for a couple of years. Yeah, we were younger. We were definitely younger before. And so we just came up with the idea to collaborate more because it just makes more sense. So what we want to give you an idea about in the session is that you should be aware of threats to open source software in general, because those are coming back big time, we've seen stuff happening in Europe, which is disturbing to say the least. Then we want to give you an idea how we can counter these threats, which AKAs to play the game, the others play as well. We want to hope and try to explain what collaboration is better than protectionism about your code. Then that's the standard stuff, like be open-minded and of course stay open-minded over a period of time because we consider that extremely important. And in the end, we're in open source because we want to make the world a better place, right? Hopefully. So we'll start with some history. You want to take that? Yeah. Do it. So I think the first, I'd like to sort of underscore who Matias is. He's the product owner of PHP, GPL, CMS that uses symphony components. And as the product owner, he's sort of the dress of the non-technical side of his CMS. And his CMS is a big deal, especially in Germany. There's a lot of adoption in German-speaking Europe, especially. And they've gone through their own fascinating, interesting history. We'll touch on that a little bit. But in a lot of senses, the word typo three is a competitor. And we want to talk about in what context that makes sense and a lot of context that doesn't make sense. For me, this is a different perspective on the open source versus proprietary situation that we find ourselves in, all of us. Yeah, you should do that. The history of open source. So we found a typo three like in, that works better, right? In 1997, so we're going to have our 20th anniversary in a couple of weeks time. Then we can say that in the beginning of the 2000s, that was the rise of open source software, right? Aside from our service run Linux or Unix or stuff like that. So your application level became more and more open source. In 2001, Drupal showed up, which was a good thing. And, wow. Then we considered 2005 the end of the open source war. So who was an open source back in 2005 already? It's more people than I thought. That's a good thing. For those who were not, those were the times when you actually had to fight to get open source running in enterprises. I recall we were sitting with Lufthansa, which is like this huge German airline, and we had to convince the marketing guy to state that he was using our open source solution. But he was, well, open source is no company policy. We won't do it. We had the same stuff with SAP. They said, we won't use open source. And we were like, yeah, but you just released your own open source database three weeks ago. And he was like, we did? It showed up called marketing. Okay, open source is cool. And by the way, Lufthansa's online entertainment system now is powered by Drupal 8, which is a super interesting news case. The media center on the Aida cruise ships is powered by Table 3. That's how we work. In the end, it's content, right? It doesn't have to be a website. Of course, but still, in 2005, that was basically when this entire thing, open source, became on vogue. You were allowed to use it, officially. And basically, until now, that's what we call the golden era. You no longer have to complain about open source getting into an enterprise. It's easy to argue everybody gets it. And this is what we consider, well, also a good thing. The proprietary market, on the other hand, was basically caught off guard and by surprise with the rise of open source software. If you take a look at proprietary content management systems in the early 2000s, not so cool. And they are too big and too slow to turn around and adapt to the level of technology that projects like Drupal or Table 3 brought into the market. As well with that, with their client base, they were too bulky, you know, and they were too slow and bulky to innovate on their own terms. And this is why we all do conferences like this, rather than this 50 people meet-ups that we used to do in the early days. So we can safely say that we knocked them down in the mid 2000s, but we didn't quite knock them out yet. So if we take a look at what open source did in those golden years and what happened, so we figured we should talk about what we're good at. Right? You want to do that? Yeah, sure. So in open source, we're super good at a bunch of things. We're really, really good at refactoring that component and then rebuilding it in another language and then updating that implementation and making that even cooler, super shiny feature to add to that other feature that we already built. We're good at traveling and evangelizing and hanging out and, you know, telling each other how great we are. Right? We're really good at building user groups and we're, you know, very, very good at creating great conferences like here. Impressive. Things we're not so good at in open source. Depending on the country and the community, we're not the greatest business people taken as a whole and I know how to build a website and somebody paid me for it and hey presto, that means I can build websites and when I don't have enough hours in the day, I hire somebody else to build more websites next to me and when she doesn't have enough hours in the day, then we hire someone else. Like, that's the sophistication of our business thinking in many cases and it's not scalable and it's not very advanced and so, but, you know, it's paid our rent for a long time. I think the time has come and this is another talk. Time has come to think further about that. We're sort of, we have some legal problems along the way. You know, trademark issues, naming things is hard, right? And connecting our stuff to non-open source stuff when this could be a huge opportunity for us to really greatly expand our market and our ability to make loads of money, right? Which in, like, I would like that for all of us here. Things that were super awesome. You want to do awesome? I'll do awesome. Right? So, that time that Type 03 lost the bid that we got, right? How much Joomla sucks, you know, celebrating how great we are and how piss poor somebody else is. We're kind of awesome at that, I hate to say, right? We're really, really good at building our things and doing our projects and being on our island and siloed and this is our enterprise technology that you may not have, except we're open source, right? We live, we know that sharing our code with someone who's smarter than we are, like, then we get better code back, right? So, but we've, you know, there's been a really long time when we did not talk, even within PHP. You weren't a PHP dev, right? You were a PHP BB dev and a typo dev and a Drupal dev, right? And so on. So, not invented here, Drupal 7, right? We're really good at reinventing wheels. You're better at venting wheels? Okay. Can you hear him? Regarding not invented here, we invented not invented here, right? So, we actually spent like 1.4 million dollars on a team that wanted to rebuild the next iteration of Type 03, which then never came to life. And we, yeah, awesome, right? Okay. And I'd like to point out that the typo community in this case is just as good at drama as we are. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the guys came up with the idea, yeah, they're symphony, but we'll build our own framework, right? And it took us... From scratch. Of course, starting with nothing, right? So, we're great at fucking up. And right now it's, we got rid of that, but we basically lost six years of development in the process. Because the rest of the Type 03 community and the core team was like, well, we don't need to innovate because those guys will innovate, right? And they're paid full time. They'll innovate for us. Yeah. Yeah. Great planning. So, in the meantime, the sharks that are the proprietary systems in this paradigm, right, have not been asleep. And if you've seen, for example, we'll get there, but if you look at things like the Gartner Magic Quadrant, like we do at Acquia, this thing called EpiServer has appeared right up with Adobe, right up with Acquia and Drupal. And it's a huge set. And they're cloud aware. They've got personalization. They are ready to scale. They've got great marketing in place. And it's a huge threat because it is a very close match to Acquia's service offering. But it's a proprietary package with all the disadvantages that we understand. But now we're going to have to go and explain those to clients again. We're going to have to start selling open source again. And we haven't really been doing that for five years or more because we've been in this golden age. Like everybody knows that open source one, right? There's a module for that. There's a module for open source one. Right. So they've been working really, really hard. And I hate to say that you know, Adobe Sitecore, EpiServer and so on have legit some really, really exciting, interesting things that we should be looking at them. They have bigger budgets, even as of three or four years ago, the average deal ooh, I can be like a politician now, the average deal size for Adobe Web content management three years ago, four years ago. And there was a video on YouTube. Somebody said this in public. Average deal size was $450,000 of license fees. License, right? With services and implementation on top of that. Now picture in your minds how much Drupal, how much typo three, how much open source, how much open source could you deliver for a half a million dollars, right? And but we have to go back out there and we have to say, you know what? Half a million on licenses before we figure out if it's going to work. Come on. With open source, we're delivering you every dollar you spend as a feature. It's a more beautiful interface. It's something, right? It's better. But they've got much larger deal sizes than we do. And they play dirty. How dirty do they play, Matias? Yeah, this is when I stated at the beginning that we're having kind of a kind of dire situation in Europe. This is what's happening. So there's a recommendation for the entire public sector to only use software that has vendor SLAs. And I can see you shaking your head there. In Germany, right? In Western Europe. Western Europe. Yeah. So that includes Netherlands, Belgium, France is considering it. And if you think about what this means, because this is just a recommendation, just one line, right? Yeah, this is one one line of regulation. Who thinks they understand the consequences of requiring a vendor SLA for Drupal? Who thinks that means Acquia is going to win all the projects in Western Europe? Yeah, unfortunately. This is basically what it means, right? It's like it's one tiny line that includes, excludes all of open source CMS in public tenders, unless there's the official vendor of stuff. So just to give you an idea about service level agreements, who does not know what it is? Awesome. So we can skip those slides. We'll finish early. So the basic idea is that the creator of the, and that term's important, the creator of the product has to provide services and reliability for those products. Every commercial CMS does it because it's easy money. Every commercial CMS markets it. So clients start picking it up and they go like, yeah, can you offer service level agreements for us? And you go like, no, because it's open source and you can do everything yourself. Yeah, but the other guys sell it and we want that too. So clients ask for these things, right? They're totally interested in these stuff. So with a CMS like Drupal under the GPL, we don't have a contributors agreement, right? Our contributors, our contributions are ours and we sort of give them in perpetuity to everyone else. But the ownership cloud of Drupal is very, very large and very diverse. And Acquia, as big a service provider as we are, and the service, even if we, you know, Dress is my CTO, right? We still are not the Drupal vendor. There is no official Drupal vendor. There is a workaround that probably works. No, it doesn't. It does work. Check that. So he's got a hidden advantage here that he hasn't talked about yet. In typo 3, you sign a contributors agreement. All your software is still GPL. Nothing else changed, but you sign a contributors agreement that you assign all of your rights to what you don't have because it's GPL, okay? Just like it, right? It's a legal move. You assign all of your rights as a contributor to the typo 3 association, the non-profit foundation. Hey, Presto, the typo 3 foundation association, creates a commercial entity called typo 3 Inc. Game behind this case. All of a sudden, and they can assign the license to this commercial entity and Matias is the vendor of typo 3 and can apply for tenders that we could be shut out of as Drupal server spreads. So this might be something, you know, it's tricky because we had to get this idea into the heads of our community, which was, that's two talks of how long that happened took place, but the thing is so that our main questions that came up within these discussions and these were stuff where we were only talking to lawyers, right? Nothing else. No community people. So who's the creator of the software? And what happens to the money that you make from these things? Because just to give you an idea, a lot of Deutsche Bank runs on typo 3 and they have a service level agreement which runs around 15,000 euros per month. So that's like three full-time employees, right? These people could work on typo 3's core and this is what we do. So personally, I don't have any shares in the company. I don't make any profit of it. I'm an employee and the CEO, but still I'm just a super employee. You also have no investors. Nothing. No investors, nothing, no venture capital. And this was our most important question, like how do we stay independent from outside money? This is why we decided against Robert. No, we didn't decide against you. We decided against Robert. No, actually decided for Robert. But the idea was that we didn't want any venture capital in the company which makes our way harder because we don't have that much funding to work on, but we wanted to stay independent from every outside influence that we could. Yeah, that's your case, right? Right. Who knows about the US stuff? So this is not a... Don't call them the US. This is a different legal situation. This wasn't this specific vendor issue, but in terms of open source having won and proprietary now fighting back, the Canadian government Canada.gov brief was highly flawed in our view from a number of perspectives, but the RFP was written in a way that enforced getting a proprietary CMS. I think that the trick was getting user seat licenses written into the RFP, so open source where you don't need to pay for per user usage, right? Sorry, can't do it. I think that was the trick that used... Anyway, so open source was essentially excluded. Adobe One, there were some super dubious architectural decisions made along the way where it's just way, way too big and way, way too much. I would contend Adobe Lowball to the bid significantly for a few tens of millions of dollars. As of mid-late 2016, delivery was at 10% overall and the budget was at 500% over the initial bid. So, you know, bad idea. There's got to be a point where the government of Canada could consider like just like stopping, not throwing good money after bad and trying open source, right? So, yeah, so this is an interesting trap where some lobbyists get things positioned right and you know, this is a situation where maybe Drupal would have been terrible for this because the architectural design was bad or maybe we could have influenced it to run differently, but you know, and we could be in just a bad a position, right? But you know, I want to say I don't think we would be because I think we're smart people and we, by definition, we use money in a very different way in our context, right? Because we're delivering value as we go. Legal issues. This is really interesting. Is this the... Oh, yeah, so check this out. This happened in Germany for real. Jumla, which you spelled wrong because the CI, there's an exclamation point there, yeah? So, Jumla, PHP, open source, CMS. They do things differently than we do. Good people, it's open source, you know? All fine. Jumla Association was set up to solve the exact problem that we've had in Drupal over and over and over again. How do you run a Drupal camp and collect money and not have it run through someone's private bank account and tax liability and how to use issue receipts, right? Found an association so that you can have some community events. That's why they needed it. It's a non-profit and in Germany the kind of non-profit that they are, by law, needs to work for the greater good. It has to be, you know, it has to do, it has to benefit people. What's the... How do they, what's the word they use to describe that in German? Oh, okay, right. It has to be useful to the broader, to society, right? Who sued them? German tax authority. Right. So the IRS in Germany told them, you know what? We don't see that you're doing any good for society running stupid, like, geeks hanging out and eating pizza together. Like, that does not fit our definition of what the greater good is, where we are going to remove your tax exempt status retroactively. Have a nice day. And the Jumla Association said, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, no. Listen, listen, listen, wait, wait, because we do this and, you know, helping an open source and everybody, they're like, if you want to do good for society, go write a book. That would meet our definition. That's a quote, by the way. This is true. This is real. Well, it's not a quote, because he said nö, gen zing burschen. Okay, but otherwise. So, um, I love this open source story that Matisse is about to tell. All right. So, what was happening that the Jumla Association started crowdfunding because they needed like six grand to fund a lawyer to help them win their case. And we took a look at that. And I have to admit that I was on the spiteful side of things. I was going like, hey, great, we know Jumla's going to implode in Germany. Awesome. More market share. But then I just took a look at all the transfers that came in. It was like 10 bucks, 15 bucks. And then there was 100 bucks, which was like standing out of that. And we did a quick call at Type 3 Association and basically, okay, let's fund a thousand bucks with that. Because this might affect us sooner or later, anyways. And the good thing is that we can make a legal case out of this, that we can then, you know, like pull up the next time the German IRS starts trying to pull tricks on us. One, thank you for doing that. That's awesome. You're welcome. And two, Matthias and the Type 3 Association cleverly created a legal precedent for defining what is for the greater good for open source software communities for all of us. Pretty much. Okay. So, we're done. You're welcome. So, this is like the key component of this. So, I hope everybody's aware of the threats and the problems that are there. So, we discussed why should we work together? Because normally when you start thinking about working together, it's about this thing, right? Market share, pie chart games. So, in order to, we can play that game. It's totally fine. But we should, you know, this is like the standard statement you get all the time, right? So, people do Drupal and they lose the lower tier to WordPress. They lose the upper tier to us. Adobe, okay. So, Adobe is the definition of the bad guys here. So, but what you always hear from, and it doesn't matter if you're in the US or in Italy or in France or in Asia, it doesn't matter. It's always the same story. Like the market isn't big enough. So, in order to play that well, so how big is the market? How big would you estimate the Drupal turnover per year worldwide? What are we talking? A billion? Two? Ten? We did proper research on type of three and we're like a tenth of Drupal size. Our gross turnover is roughly around the billion euro mark per year. So, 10 billion isn't that far off. So, the next important question, what is our market? Because people tend to think in the open source silo, right? So, they think, well, our market is stuff we can get away from Joomla or from WordPress or from type of three or from Drupal. You know, like this confined space of things. And if we take a look at the market we define, it should be the entire web. And that's a lot more than just the open source silo. And then we should take a look at how much of this market is actually covered by CMS at all. And then the last important thing, this is just for the WordPress people, screw market share, think turnover, right? It's the same thing. I think which company runs the most cars? I think it's Honda or Toyota. No, it's Toyota. I had the same discussion in Italy in Bologna, which is the home of Lamborghini. I was like, yeah, we don't have the huge market share in this country. You build like this freaking cars which have like this .001 margin thing. And it's like the most incredible car on the world, right? So, think turnover. So, we brought some charts because we're not coding anymore, so we do charts now. So, just to take a look at CMS or the entire market, we figured in turnover that 70% of the web does not use CMS at all. And we had, you did the session this morning where we had 25 people and we had two people in the room that says, yeah, we're trying to move away from Dreamweaver. Really? I kid you not. This happened this morning. We did, before this morning, we didn't know that it still worked. Yeah. I was also thinking, Dreamweaver, that's still a thing. And then there's this market share which runs on CMS systems and that tiny fraction on top, that's open source CMS, right? We're not talking market share, we're talking turnover revenue being generated. Right. And that's where we're fighting with each other all the time. And that's dumb, right? Absolutely. We can fight really effectively for the orange and really interestingly for the green space. That would make sense. I mean, it's like you go to a birthday party and you brought cake, right? It makes sense. And now there's more people than you anticipated to come. What do you do? You don't cut the slices smaller, you get more cake. And that's how it should work. What happened to my slides? Does it work? No, it works. The other thing is you want to do the everybody's bashing Acquia for doing so much business, right? At least you said so. Please bash him now. Somebody, thank you. All right. See, I proved my point. So if we take a look at proper numbers, and this is only this tiny fraction of open source content management system, that's like Acquia. And all that is not Acquia. So that's the open source piece of pie, right? Pretty much, yeah. So this tiny, tiny fraction. So there's enough room for everybody to get like make a good living out of what we do. And now my animation breaks. So here we go. So we basically brought like a synopsis kind of thing. I even don't know if the term is right. So we are competition. Oh, is that where you put that slide? Okay. Now you moved it around. This is totally not rehearsed, by the way, as you might have been able to tell you. We are a well oiled machine. What are you saying? Yeah, pretty much. Who are you? But like I mentioned earlier, we're competition, those still fighting for the same thing, right? To make open source more successful in the market in general. And we had this discussion this morning as well. So people are they have issues with moving from Drupal 7 to Drupal 8. That's I hear that a lot. And it's about modules not being compatible with Drupal 8 yet, you know, these kind of things. And what we figured is that that's the like the greatest thing about open source is that you can change it, right? Because if you go for the proprietary vendor lock-in, there's no way you can ever change these things, mainly because you're not allowed to a second, and you don't have access to source code. And we figured that we should join forces to make open source even more successful worldwide, because there's a lot of untouched stuff that we can jump into. And that's basically the entire divide and conquer approach. Work together, get the entire market done. And after that, we can fight not over the pie, but over the entire buffet, and then on our own private islands, right? So we invite him to Type 3 Island, and he's going to invite us to Drupal Island. And then we can decide who picks which parts. Right, tech cooperation. So this is another reason why we should cooperate. The simple reason is that we already are cooperating. There's this little thing called the age of interoperability in PHP or the PHP Renaissance, right? PHP 5.2 brought us namespaces for the non-developers here. That means I can have two pieces of functionality that plug into my PHP system, and they can use variables that have the same names, and they won't fight with each other. They won't cause a conflict. So I can have really radical names like date, or time, or name, or something, and that works. So that made it easier to put different code together. Continue. That led us to dependency management through a thing called Composer, so we can then we have mechanisms to plug in and control things that we put into our projects. That's cool. By the way, by the way, Fun Fact, has anyone ever realized that the Composer logo is actually a conductor? Oh, see? Details, details. Yes, we should put that in what we're awesome at. We're awesome at picking nits, yeah. So then we have the PHP framework interoperability group that started codifying other standards that let us work better together. They're called PSR standards, and that led us create things like the first PHP meta project of this era is Drupal 8. We got rid of a ton of our own code, proprietary code essentially, and replaced it with two components of the Symphony library to handle HTTP requests, and the Guzzle library, which is another open source library, and we outsourced that risk, and we grew our community by doing that, and all of the things that we have with Twig, and Symphony, and all these external components now, we're a meta, we're an umbrella over a bunch of other open source projects. This thing that we call Drupal 8 is just like the human body, you know, like what is the bacteria and what is me kind of idea. I was thinking about Frankenstein. Right, and we're super good friends with Symphony, which is a set of functional components also written in PHP. All of this comes together. We're already cooperating and contributing together to all of these things. Type O3 is written in PHP and uses Symphony components, and uses Composer, and uses Guzzle, and PSR, and they've implemented a bunch of the PSRs. They're ahead of us on a couple of them. You guys have PSR7 in place. Message handling? Okay, yeah, but we're not there yet. But we're working on, like we're using exactly, we're using the same set of toys, right? We're just playing a little bit differently. So we're already cooperating together. These are our friends. This is not our competition in almost any sense of the word. This was obviously a very stressful slide to put together, and because we live in Germany, we combated that stress with beer. Now the problem is, Matthias is from Düsseldorf, and I'm from Cologne, and those two cities are 25 miles apart, miles, I think. And as close friends are with the same set of toys, right, like we're neighbors, we hate each other. Like we couldn't even agree on what kind of beer to drink. So we had to go to another city where they drink something else. So here are the reasons that we've determined are really, really good not to work together on knocking out the proprietary competition. Is it loading? Yeah. Now we thought about what to put there. This page intentionally left blank. Nothing at all. Anyway, I think ellipsis is good. That's great. Jamma Matthias is a genius on display. Yeah, so actually, we're basically at the end of what we wanted to talk about, and one of my questions to you is, what are we missing here? Like, why shouldn't we be going to more of each other's conferences? Why shouldn't we be figuring out how to make symphony better, and how to make our libraries better together, to make our projects better? And you know what? Matthias Wanaita cruises. Very cool, right? We want Lufthansa this time. Very cool. Like, we're happy about that. I don't think there has to be bad feeling about this, because with 70% of the web that's not even using a CMS at all, we could double the CMS business, and there's still room to grow, right? So if you can think of reasons not to cooperate, that would be important information for us to know, seriously. So I'm really hopeful that we were able to talk about how, you know, we had this golden age, we have this golden age of open source, but the competition, the proprietary competition, has not been asleep. We have to learn to meet them on the field and play their games against them. We feel that collaboration is better than protection, and please stay open-minded, and please help make the world a better place. All right, cool. That's it. Go. Move. That was an assumption. Well, so I'm going to give you a longer answer than you expected, but we've got a couple minutes, right? It was transformational to have a website at all 10 or 12 years ago, and a lot of us got into this business because we could make a website, and then over time, oh, an affordable website, and then over time, we could make a beautiful website and a functional website, and that it is no longer transformational just to have a website. Everybody's got a website, right? And our skill set, I'm sorry to say, if it is simply the skill of putting code together to make a website appear, that is also no longer transformational, that is also commodity. So we need to be thinking in bigger, better business models that add actual value beyond the creation of the website, right? So AQUIA exemplifies this in a number of ways, which is easy to talk about, you know, with support SLAs, with security, with scalability, now with personalization, all that sort of stuff. Just like people who build Netnode has built an inbound marketing tool using Drupal 8 called Open Inbound, and I encourage you to check it out. It's really, really cool, and it's all built on Drupal. So you can diversify, you can be a full service agency, add value. In a lot of places, you can specialize by offering products that you believe will fit, you can productize things that you already do. All of these are great ways to do business, and that's the story of AQUIA, that's the story of Platform, that's the story of lots of us in the community. It is very, very hard nowadays to survive in any way as a business doing $5,000, $15,000, $20,000 projects, right? I mean, I don't know where the cutoff is exactly, but my gut feeling tells me, right, it depends on the country and so on. But churning out cute little brochure websites is no longer a business. Build a system, cool drops in Belgium. Dropsolid is the company they built, they built their company, they wanted to have more time, so they built a cloud infrastructure, then they built a site spinning machine on top of that. Now they're still not selling Drupal websites. They sell digital marketing to SME businesses, and they sell five hours of marketer time and a website and analytics help and campaign design help. It just so happens that they're spinning up Drupal websites that look okay and they work fine, but that's not their business. They're teaching for the first time SMEs to do marketing. That's amazing. Now they're doing that based on a system that spins up little tiny Drupal websites, but that's not where they're adding the value. So all of this is to say, websites now are only transformational if they're like huge and give you data and personalization and what have you, or they do something else. A lot of us don't even need websites because we have Facebook or Medium now, and then we've got Wix, we've got Squarespace, we've got WordPress.com, and they're really great self-service tools from making pretty decent websites. So our lunch is thoroughly eaten below a certain budget point. I don't see the point of doing business below a certain threshold of just building websites as there's no point in my view of there's no economic sense in it that I can see to do that. He says it's mad. And the self-service tools are only going to get better and the importance of Facebook where they give you a pages mechanism now, that can grow. And I blog on Medium because it's incredibly comfortable for me. And I have a site and I like my site and I still don't post on it because I forgot to update the Octopress library and then I got stuck because I'm not really good at Ruby. And then it happens. But there's a thing that's a service that just runs. It's convenient. So the action of making the website is less and less significant. And the survival point gets pushed higher and higher up the market, which is why don't focus on building websites, go add values. Very long answer. But did we kill you? Is that it? Yeah, it is. It's pretty much. Oh, okay. Yes. Oh, okay. Okay, so I'll just repeat this and then we can unpick it a little bit because it's really interesting. He said, okay, we said we should collaborate and cooperate and not think of ourselves. We can compete for business. That's totally legit, right? But he was suggesting that to be proficient at typo3, to be proficient at Drupal, there's some really serious skill sets. And it's a steep learning curve and so on. How can we possibly invest that much time? That would be crazy. It's not what we're talking about, right? So where could we collaborate? PHP framework interoperability group needs help developing standards for us to write interchangeable components, right? Which one is the database standard? I forget now. You have a standard for storing information. And if all of our projects stored data following this standard, the content repository, right, PHPCR. If we all use PHPCR, not just theoretically, but on a pretty damn good practical level, if we decide for whatever reasons, like, I only want to work with tall people. I only want to work with mustachioed people, right? So I'm moving from Drupal to typo3. My database still works with typo3. We just go and plug it in over there. The content structures work in both systems if we're both following PHPCR. We can work together on that standard, on those implementations, to make our mutual lives better off if one of our dumb clients decides to go to them, right? You know, so that's a really, and there's a ton of, I would be dumb to, no, there are a ton of opportunities in open source, all of the libraries that we use mutually, all of symphony, all of dweg, all of the JavaScript stuff we do, it's all open source, and we can all go and contribute there. We can all go and work together. We can teach each other and learn from each other at conferences, online, everywhere. There's a huge collaboration space, right? Marketing. Open source marketing. Open source marketing. Okay, like doing what we're doing attached to, right? There's that too. So there's a huge amount of space for us to be going out and saying, vendor lock-in, getting a value for money from the first dollar you spend, like all these open source stories that we need to start telling again. Look at the Gartner Magic Quadrant. Adobe's really strong. Aquean Drupal's really strong. EpiServer's come up. Sitecore has come down a little bit, but we have a ton of big fights to fight out there to get the big ticket projects, right? I'd be happy for you to get one. Us to get one. Trade off a little bit. That would be a great place to be in. We have some confidence because we can look at each other's code and we share these components. We can actually say with some confidence using this series of PHP CMSs, like we know that that's pretty good quality, right? You need a service provider in Düsseldorf and you need someone right there. Aquea can't compete with that, yeah? And if you need people on the ground in Boston, right, you have more trouble competing with that. So they're a great, they're completely okay situations to compete in while we really have each other's backs on all sorts of other fronts. Dave, okay. In San Antonio, Texas, there was legislation against the ride-sharing business model and Lyft and Uber drivers came together. The two companies came together to fight that, to make it legal to practice that business model in the city. He's suggesting that that's a similar kind of a situation. I have grave reservations about the implementation of the network business model in Uber and Lyft's case, but yes. No, no, no, but that's a great way. We have common interests, a ton of common interests and a ton of common enemies. So like, you know, we'd rather drink excellent beer together and make our stuff better than fight about dumb details. Like two smartphones. Yeah, no, so I've been in taxis in some places where there's the My Taxi app and whatever the local one is and then the Uber and the Lyft, like there's like six things across their dashboard and they're like, and that makes sense as an entrepreneur, like I'm opening up, so yeah. Beers, are we good? Thank you so much. Thanks. Thank you.