 Hello, everyone, and welcome to Think Tech Hawaii on this show day. It's Thursday, July 29, 2021. You're watching America Finding Its Way, and I'm your host Stephanie Stoll Dalton. Our show today is the topic to review this week's proceedings of the select committee investigation into this January 6 attack on the Capitol. On Tuesday, the first day, we know the House Republicans called the committee a sham and a political charade. And then the Republican leaders and the rest of them too ignored the proceedings entirely and met in closed session to plan punishment for the Republican committee members recently added. They missed the police officer's harrowing testimony, which was the first item up on the agenda of the committee. And they missed it entirely for the whole about the January 6 assault. So we want to talk about whether that committee is proceeding in ways that are most effective since there's been so much planning and attempt to have this begin to get to what we need to know. And it's the only way we're going to get to need to know because everything else is coming up against that. So what I'd like to ask is the first question. And before that, I'd like to welcome everybody and recognize this committee of itself and this forum. So I'd like to welcome Jay Fidel and also Tim Appichella. And thank you Cynthia Sinclair, Cynthia Lee Sinclair is here too and also Winston Welch. So for our first question, Jay, let's go with was it very effective? Do you think it was effective to have the police officers testify first in the committee agenda? Well, you know, it's kind of a sacred cow thing. You know, you put the police on there and they make remarks that are very emotional. And they try to take you there, put you there in the room. And Kinsler was actually wiping his eyes a lot of the others were too. And I was impressed with that from the point of theater. But it's only it's only setting the stage really they got to get on probably the, you know, the best preliminary statement. I mean, there were others too that were good, but was Cheney Cheney Cheney was remarkable. I almost forgot she was a Republican. She was she was fabulous. And she articulated what she wanted to know about. And those are pretty much the things that I would like to know about. And we already know what happened and how the police were beat up. We know that. What we really don't know is how this all came together. And that would be something the FBI would know something about. The committee itself can learn about that by subpoenaing the right people and asking the right questions. You know, before I volunteered to be on this committee, but they didn't answer me. Now I'm volunteering to be a staffer because the staffers are the ones who are going to find out what's going on. They're going to find out who the real witnesses are. They're going to find out the people who will tell the truth. I think what's interesting is we know, don't we all of us here today, we know that there were congressmen and senators who were complicit in this insurrection. They knew about it. They were connected with it. They God knows the level of their participation planning involvement with it. And the question is, what happens, they're trying to protect themselves obviously now. They're distracting us in every way possible, calling Nancy Pelosi names, what have you. But the reality is, I think they're afraid of being called. And I think that when they are called, I hope they are called, all of them, all of the ones whose names have come up, which is probably a fair number of people. What will they do? Will they distract by running away, by saying it's all a witch hunt? Will they distract by disappearing or going, taking themselves to the hospital? Will they refuse to answer on some stupid ground or another? Will they somehow get into a confrontation? Will they bring in their friends as in the first impeachment to stand in the lobby and complain about due process? There are 50 things you could think of that they could do to try to derail this committee. And I think they will do a number of them. And it would be difficult to make an orderly investigation that way. So the investigators and especially the staffers have to figure out how they're going to get to the points that Liz Cheney was asking about, namely, how did this come together? Who was involved? Why? What were the social and political considerations? What were the economic considerations? Who paid? And a half a dozen other things like that. We need to know that, and we're not going to know that by listening to the police who we already really heard from. Well, that's the very good analysis of it. And there have been various comments about the brilliancy of having the police officers testify early to get to know what it is that happened. But that's from their point of view. But you're also bringing up Liz Cheney's speech and what she said, the purpose of the work was to be and addressing all of those points that you made. And the the officers in their comments, I'd like to know you if you all have additional ones about how important they were. We know Liz Cheney's were. Her speech was tantamount to the pledge of allegiance. And I believe it should be memorized in the same way by all schoolchildren as we have known other important speeches like other Abraham Lincoln, a non-girl dressed. But I wanted to ask you all if you agreed that one of the most important statements, and this is what Jay prefaced, is that his comment, Officer Dunn, he was asking and begging almost the committee to go beyond the attackers and to find out who is the hip man. So tell me how you felt about that piece of their presentation. Tim, what do you think about that? And what else did you hear that was really seminal to this process from them? Thank you. Good morning, Stephanie. Hey, what was seminal for me was the comments from the police refuting the notion that these those individuals that attack the Capitol were really disantifa people in MAGA haves. We got specific testimony that these were racist charged attacks. The African American Capitol police were the targets of their racial rants. And pretty much showed without a shadow of a doubt that these were not people incognito attacking our own Capitol and our Capitol police trying to get at the congressman, trying to stop a political process. The certification of the Electoral College votes. That's now been dispelled 100 percent. So let's move on to the next thing. And that is who ultimately is responsible for this. And I think what came out of the testimony of those police officers was that again, the chance, the chance from all those saying, Donald Trump sent us here, we are here on his authority. Therefore, we're not trespassing. And I don't think that's going to hold up in the Department of Justice or the FBI, but that's their story and they're sticking to it. So I thought that was another very important part that was brought up in this testimony is that that's not going to wash. It's not going to work. Try again, try another answer, try another defense, because every time you put out one of these defenses, they fall on their face because they're they're ridiculous. And try again. So so Cynthia, do you agree with that? Or can you put a little more paint, a little more information in there about what was important in the officer's testimony that reached the high criteria this committee needs to have for this investigation? I go along with the spirit of what he was saying and where he was going with it. And I think he sort of lost it when he went back to the focus on the hitman. I thought that he was sort of presenting his case of the hitman were the people that were doing the insurrection. But the person who hired the hitman is the one we need to know about. But then he got lost and then he referred to the person that was doing the hiring as the hitman. And so it got confused. So I think his his message got a little muddled in there. And so now everybody's going with that. Yeah, we got to find the hitman. I kind of and maybe it was just me and I was misunderstanding where he was going with it, but it sounded to me like we already know who the hitmen are, right? But when you find a hitman and you bring him to justice, you don't just bring the hitman to justice, you bring whoever hired him to justice also. And I think that was the point he was trying to make. But then he sort of reverted back and said, and then at the last minute, he said hitman. So that's what everybody sort of grabbed on to. So that was one of the things that that struck me. One of the things that that really got me was when I can't remember his name now, Akalino Ghanel, Officer Ghanel, that's what it was, Officer Ghanel. When he was talking about how when he was in Iraq, he, you know, hand to hand combat was not something he ever really had to do and and isn't really a part of the warfare in that sense that he was involved with. You know, all of his deployment, he never experienced something like what he experienced on that day. And here it was Americans that were attacking him, you know, and and he was fighting for his life and they all were. And they were fighting to try to protect Congress. And and that, to me, makes them heroes and anything that is said about them in any other way to me is just nonsense because they saved democracy. They did by their bravery and holding the line the way they did. They they kept the, you know, attackers at bay long enough to get the people away and to get them safe because it's obvious what their intentions were. And so to me, the fact that the Republicans voted not to give those guys the medal just really makes me angry. And I'm not usually angry at the Republicans. I just think they're idiots, but I don't get mad at them like this. I'm I'm angry at the Republicans for treating the Capitol Police the way they did. But I also hear that in Congress, they just passed something today. There was a vote to give them more money. So at least the Capitol Police get more funding. Well, really good point, because just a little while ago, they announced that the two point one billion bill that's for Capitol Hill security protection. And some of that's going to be used for other other topics, to other issues, too. But anyhow, they're getting they're getting what they asked for. So that that was very satisfying to know that they did that work today because it's so so infrequent that we get to see them work and produce what they're asked to do by the people. But Winston, with all of this said about the value of their commentary and their being first, taking priority, that the the feedback to them has been so utterly difficult to understand why the mocking, for example, would occur. For these people, when everything we're talking about here is heroic and tremendous effort. And yet on Fox News, the the the police officers have been called crisis actors. And as you probably know, and I've seen some of the shows on Fox have awarded them the Academy Award and some other acting awards. What do you what do you think that means? It's it's it is disgraceful. It's just like Officer Fanon said when he pounded his fist on the table. I think that was not an act. That was his real emotion about what they went through. And, you know, he says that the disrespect shown to his colleagues was disgraceful. And I think that's exactly right. When you hear that these officers, you know, they're comparing this to worse than they than they had felt in war, that these were own Americans that were assaulting them. And it's right. How do we how do how do you want to join, you know, a force to protect the, you know, the hallowed grounds of the of the US Capitol when you're being mocked on Fox News or even by by people that that are trying to pretend this was an ordinary day of of loving tourism. And tourists visiting the Capitol. So, you know, I think that it doesn't matter how it's spun. Let's I think that the what we can focus on is what the the chair of the committee said, Benny Thompson, he says, as chair, I will not give the lie any fertile ground of the rioters who tried to rob us of our democracy and they were propelled by that lie. You need to understand how and why the big life festered. And I think that's exactly it. Liz Cheney, you know what? She's she's right. She's she stood up and she says, what's more important to that? Do we do we hate our political adversaries more or do we love America more? I mean, at the end of the day, we need to we need to just be Americans about this. And I was watching an interesting movie. It was with of it was the fellow who negotiated Gary France's powers returned to America during the Cold War when his plane was shot down and it was just came out. It looks like last year and the actor portraying it is who's a fellow that had forced up Tom Hanks and he says and and and the judge in the case says, this guy is a spy. You can't don't don't give him any any defense and and it's a done deal. And the the government's trying to say the same thing. And and they're trying to put pressure on the lawyer who's they're arguably a very difficult case. I mean, the fellow was a spy and and all of that. But he says, you know, the difference between you and me. He says a lot that the fellow that was trying to say, hey, you got to sweep this one under the rug. His last name, he says, your last name is like Hoffman or something. Mine is, you know, Italian. It was, you know, whatever it was. And he says you come from German stock. I come from Italian stock, but we're both Americans. He says, you know, the difference is the only thing that unites us. The only thing that unites us is is the rule and that we believe in this rule and the rule is called the Constitution and everything flows from that and everything flows from our belief in upholding the laws and our responsibility to this nation. And I think that as Liz Cheney says, if those who are responsible do not act, then it is a cancer on the nation. And our constitutional republic and it will undermine the peaceful transfer of power at our heart for the democratic system. So I think we need to just not give these other folks oxygen. We just need to continue to promote the truth as best as we can because the trash will be out there. We don't need to give it any more, any more airtime. What we need to do collectively as a country is just say this did happen. This is not fake. This was real. These people were damaged. They're very brave for sitting up before Congress. I mean, one of them got some sort of death threats during his testimony. Mr. Officer Fanoni, I think. So, you know, these are real people with real stories that defended our very democracy. And if it weren't for them, we might be living in a very different condition right now. Well, it's not over yet. We are perhaps still facing that that hopefully it's a little bit more distant. Stephanie, could I jump in for a minute? I mean, the big lie out. Yes, yes, certainly. Thank you because, you know, I found it highly offensive that they're a member of Congress trying to label these these brave officers as actors. But it shouldn't surprise any of us because what does a good defense attorney do with a credible witness? They tried to undermine them. They try to undermine their credibility. And in this case, it's name calling them suggesting that they are paid actors. But it's despicable. So that's all I wanted to say. Thank you. That's very of a good point. And, yeah, and Winston's bringing up the big lie, which is driving. And is this committee? What is this committee going to do about the big lie, which is undergirding this whole thing and is sitting there, you know, like stuck in the pipe. And so how as, you know, you're saying Winston, you know, that has to be somehow has to be cracked. So, you know, Jay, what about that? Also, I mean, and that in relation to the fact that the Republicans are often their caucuses now threatening or were during this week, threatening to propose punishment for Liz Cheney and for Adam Zingenjer. And through these rule changes, they're going to make to disallow any community assignments with the Democrats and recommending or making possible expulsion from every honorific or position that they have on these other committees. So are they able to do that with impunity? And what does that have to do with the big lie? Is that a big effort to support the continue to grow the big lie? It's theater. So much of this is theater and it shouldn't be. We have to resist that to a certain extent. The the Capitol Police officers who testified, although, as you guys have pointed out, you know, they made some valuable contributions to dispel in disinformation that had been spread around. But and regrettably, you know, the television cameras there and the media there. This is really a hearing for the public. But the bottom line, which is we never forget, is one of the facts, man, what happened here? Not not what the theater is and not what the distractions are. Republicans are going to do all kinds of distractions, 50 things. They're only they're only beginning the distractions. But you know, these guys, the committee and their staffers, they have to put their heads down. They have to be investigators. They have to find out what happened. And sure, they got to keep a public face. They got to show that they mean what they say and they say what they mean. But they have to give us a report that's authoritative and detailed and gets the points we want to know about. And they have to shove everything off that stops them or distracts them. They have to ignore that. This is going to be the big challenge. And so to the extent we follow this, we should follow what they are learning. We should follow who they are talking to about the facts. So I think it's going to be a lot of distraction, actually on both sides, because this is theater for the public. But I think the real deal here is what they learn. Well, you know, I think that that kind of bridges over Tim, to what you saw Geraldo Rivera doing. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Well, I mean, basically he's refuting the GOP big lie. I mean, he finally is standing up and say, no, this is not true. And again, he's taking great risk because, as I said in many other shows, there's great risk for any person to step outside the boundaries of what Donald Trump wants everyone to say and believe. Once you're outside the tribe, the herd, you are now in no man's land and you're now subject to ridicule, ostrich to be ostracized, great risk. But, you know, he used to be a journalist and a darn good journalist. And now maybe he's starting to get his chops back and he's standing up to what is the obvious reality of the situation versus the contrived mandated reality that they're being told to follow. And so he's he's a break in the feline. He's, you know, he's he's the puka in a line that's starting to maybe crumble and that's significant. If it comes from different areas like Liz Cheney, Adam Kingsinger, other other media folks, it all starts to accumulate and it all starts to gather inertia. And sooner or later, everyone's embarrassed to defend the big lie. And now there then you'll see a correlation to the inability to defend the big lie and the breakaway from Donald Trump. We'll see. Well, that's the break comes forward. OK, but what did you think about Haraldo as he said the truth about this is about what the president did and this is about what McCarthy said and what Mitch said and all of them said this in the days after. And now it's all different and it's not true. And as he was going, he I was worried because he was being he was being talked over and he was being told that he was wrong and ridiculed and they just derided him all through his talk. Let me let me address that, because what do you say about an individual like Liz Cheney, which I rarely agree with anything she, you know, her position on politics, rarely agree with most of it? What do you say about Adam Kingsinger, who is willing to sacrifice his political career, Liz Cheney, sacrifice her political career? Rivera to sacrifice his future career in TV and the media. It's an act of patriotism, I think. It's an act of knowing where the chips lie. And it's the act of courage. That's the definition of courage is to know that ultimately you're going to be castigated as a trader, the foe and just disloyal to Donald Trump and the GOP way of life. But you do it anyway because for Liz Cheney, she said, I'm doing it for my oath. I'm not doing this for my political career. And Adam Kingsinger says political career be damned. I have to stand up for what I know is true. And that is to follow the Constitution and get to the heart of this matter. And I think they're patriots. I do. And again, I don't probably agree with any of them. But I see I see within themselves that which is the most important adherence to the rule of law and the Constitution and what keeps this democracy together. And God bless them. But Stephanie, can I add something to that? You know, yes, there are signs the wall was crumbling, but they're anecdotal and they're only a handful of people. But basically, Mitch McConnell is still in charge. And we're going to see that. I think we're going to see that on the this thing with the infrastructure bill. Well, I want to add this, though. This is my my point is I I also tuned into maybe you guys made me do it. I also tuned into Fox News looking for signs of crumble, if you will. I didn't see any signs of crumble. I saw them lying immediately about everything. So don't don't get too excited here, because, you know, the right wing media is still right wing. Those guys are still lying to us by the car load. And it's not not entirely clear that anything is changing. Right. And that's why I thought the Haraldo scene was so informative because he did hold it together. But he's a pretty strong outspoken guy. He he started to fade. And I thought that was a little bit worrisome, but he never really did leave leave it. So I do think that we have to look for these little pieces to see if these are real cracks that are going to go anywhere. And so, yeah, so that's enough on Haraldo. But we thank you, Haraldo, for stating the truth, at least telling the truth. Now, one of the things I've recently discovered is that the Select Committee is only on for this Congress's period of time. So, Cynthia, do you think they can do everything in the time that they have remaining? Oh, if they add their staff member, if they double the number of their staff, maybe, you know, what's going to happen? We're going to see a lot of subpoenas go out. And every Republican that gets subpoena, we can already bet is going to fight it. We already know that they're going to drag their feet. They're going to drag it out. That's what they're going to do. So in my hope, what they're going to do is they're going to subpoena records, records, phone records, text messages, emails, every possible every possible time that somebody might have seen them talking to each other, even. I mean, everything, paper-wise. I want to see such a solid case on paper with, you know, hard physical evidence, long before we ever even try to get these guys in front of the commission to testify. Because maybe they won't lie to Congress. I don't know. I don't know if I believe that. I think they would. I don't think they believe in their oath enough that they would feel like they needed to tell the truth anywhere. So including Congress, sure that, you know, consequences are much more severe. But I think that they have this faith in Trump coming back and everybody getting, you know, pardoned and everything's going to go back to the power, you know, structure that they had before. For now, I mean, at least that's over for now. So Winston, what do you think about the committee? Is it going to be the one we need and are they going to be able to accomplish it in the time they have? Well, you know, they could take all the time in the world, but I think Liz Cheney and she says the public deserves testimony from every person with knowledge of planning and preparation for July 6th. We must also know what happened every minute of that day in the White House, every phone call, every conversation, every meeting leading up to during and after the attack. That's what's going to come out like Cynthia said, that supreme of the phone records, the text records, the email. Now, of course, a lot of those conversations are just conversations. They won't have been recorded in the written text. But, you know, as Geraldo, I don't know, Jay, I think Fox, OK, we can't expect a lot from Fox, but there's certain people I was shocked as to I didn't even know Geraldo was on Fox. But he's, you know, he says, I think you've been to Sean Gaslight and changing the subject. The subject is January 6th and what happened to the United States Capitol and why it happened. Those two things, the fact that the Capitol was targeted and the prime investigator, the one who unleashed the mob was the president of the United States, for God's sake, Sean. This was, you know, he wasn't allowed on by mistake. Fox is trying to appeal to those people that say, oh, well, Fox isn't just the parodying one line. I think that was just sort of a throwaway that, you know, and Sean Hannity's reputation didn't go down because of Geraldo Rivera in the minds of his viewers. So I think it's a little bit of theater, but he did stand up. Now, Liz Cheney, yeah, and so Liz Cheney, she's, I think she and Mr. Kissinger, maybe they will be form a core of the conservative traditional values party caucus inside of the Republican Party and have a breakaway that, or they become part of the conservative Democratic Party, I don't know. Like I said before, Liz Cheney, her seat is in Wyoming. I don't know how many, how blue Wyoming is, but I'm thinking it's not that blue. It's probably pretty red red. And Liz Cheney's got, if she's running against someone that's gonna be supported by supporter of the big lie, you know what, it's time to donate to Liz Cheney because it's better the devil, you know, than the one you definitely know is worse. And this lady is standing up and she's being a real true patriotic American. She's speaking truth to power. She may lose her committee assignments or whatever. So Joe Biden needs to say thank you for being an American. We're gonna step up and we're, I'm gonna ask every person who's a Democrat to donate money to your account for re-election if you don't outright switch and join our party, which may not be palatable for her, but what she and Mr. Kissinger are doing are very. I mean, in the leadership of the committee and that she's strong for that. And you know, we have Aloha time now. So we're gonna... Aloha time. Aloha time. Aloha time. Aloha time. Aloha time. Aloha time. Aloha time. It's always Aloha time here. Aloha time. Aloha time. Not always. Not always. So informative. So thank you to the panel and those on it who are, of course, Tim Apachello, Cynthia Leeson, Claire Winston, Welton, Jay Fiedell, and for this really critical conversation. I'm Stephanie Stoll Dalton, hosting for America Finding It's Way. We'll see you next week, same time, same day. Mahalo, everybody. Aloha. Aloha.