 Welcome to this May Day version of the Development Reboard. Call this meeting to order. This is a in-person meeting. We have no remote attendees. I guess to check the box Meredith, I'll let you do your, do your spiel. I guess we can do that first. Yeah. It's been so long since I've done a whole meeting. Introducing members starting on my left. Kevin O'Connell, board member. Meredith Crandall, staff. Rob Goodwin chair. Joe Karen and board member. Wonderful. Wonderful. So now Meredith will talk about our procedures. Yep. And so this is, this is definitely for people who might be watching tonight over work on media streaming this. I'm going to share my screen for you so that you'll know how to get on tonight's meeting if you so wish. So. Get my little spiel. So for anyone who is viewing tonight's development review board meeting via work on media, you can participate in tonight's meeting via the zoom platform, either with video access options or just over the telephone. You can type this link into your browser and it will bring you into the zoom platform. And that way you would be able to actually have video over your computer or smartphone and be able to see what's going on, see what we do when we share screens as well as be able to ask questions and interact. Alternatively, you can dial in via your phone and plug in this meeting ID when you're prompted. And I'll let you into the meeting and you'll be able to hear everything over your phone as well as ask questions and speak with us. If you try to log into the meeting and you have problems, please email me at mcrandall at montpillier-vt.org. If anyone does decide to get on via zoom know that turning your video on is optional. And when you do, if you do log in that way, please change your name in zoom to both your first and last name. That way we will know who has logged in and be able to call on you when appropriate. Please also make sure to keep your microphone on mute if you log in over zoom. That way it will reduce background noise. In the event the public is unable to access tonight's meeting, it will need to be continued to a time and place certain. And I will know about that because I will be monitoring my email throughout tonight's meeting. I will now hand the meeting back over to the chair. All right. Thank you, Meredith. And welcome to Catherine Burgess. Glad to have you. No, we're all right. Do we have a motion for the agenda? I submit a motion to approve the agenda. Second motion by Kevin second by Joe. Those in favor of the agenda being approved say hi. Hi. Gender is approved. Okay. So first of all, a few comments tonight. We are sad to see Abby have this as her last meeting. And we really thank you for your time over the last several years. Thank you, Kevin. Great. And pinch it a couple of times to be the chair, which was awesome. So thank you for that. And I also want to crutch that Kevin on the, another 25 year term on the DRB. Thank you, Kevin. It's been great having you. And so glad that you are willing to continue to, to be a part of this. I think we'll have a lot of good presentations this evening. So I have to seven by street is one of them. And. 2481. Melton street is the second and then Bailey have his third. Feel free once you're done with your application, you don't have to stick around for the entire meeting. Feel free to go. Our last one is actually. Applicants here on the board and. Be doing musical chairs. So. We look like we moved the approval of the minutes to the end. I know we haven't changed the, which is fine to change the procedures for all the procedures yet, but I'll put it there and I just left it. It's just fine. I like it. I like that. So. The first application five to seven vine street, just to give you guys a preview of sort of how this process works. If you haven't been here before. We will swear everyone in it's going to. Sketch plan. Sketch plan. We don't have to do that until you get to Jeff. That's right. Oh, this tricks me up. Oh, this tricks me up. Okay. Well, that being said, we'll skip that. If you want to come up. To the microphone and introduce yourself. It just makes you're seated and. Just make sure you're into the microphone. So the recording secretary can hear you. Yeah, cause this will be the, the video that ends up getting posted on the website for people to be able to view. My name is John Miller. And. And Maureen Miller. Wonderful. Okay. And so you are both here for the vine street application. Yes. Yeah, great. So Meredith want to give a brief technical overview. And then we can turn it over to you all for a. Summary from your perspective. So this is a sketch plan subdivision. So as the board's pretty familiar with, you don't actually make any decisions tonight, but this is an opportunity to give the applicants feedback on any questions you may have things you might see as missing or needing some elaboration in the application before they come back for the final application for subdivision. So this is a, it's a already developed parcel. It already has two homes on it. They're separate. Separate buildings and there's a shared driveway. And so the proposal is to subdivide this into two different parcels continue with a shared driveway with the driveway being on one parcel. And there's, there's not a lot of complications to it. There's a little bit of the, the. Little bit of a twist and that there's no proposal to add that a second driveway. And so for the final application, there will need to be some information about, you know, like a shared parking plan or agreement. As well as. What we've done previously in other applications where we want to see a copy as a deed or something else to show that. The person who doesn't actually own the driveway has rights to use it in clarity on, on those types of situations, but otherwise the, um, I don't see any red flags with the application. Right. Thank you, Meredith. Um, yes, just want to maybe provide a little summary or summary of your project that gets brought up to speed on what you're proposing and. Fund this property for 35 years. Two houses have been rentals all of that time. Um, We can't really do it anymore. It's a little too taxing. We're getting on in years and. We're ready to move on. And it's a cumbersome property because. There aren't too many left in my pillar that are single fat, two single family homes on a single plot of land. We actually bought it from the. The butlers, Charles butlers and, and all. And they actually had the family in both houses. Um, which was, which was pretty unique as well. But again, that was a long time ago. Um, we're just, we were just excited to see that the, uh, zoning had changed. Um, in such a manner that is. Is ideal for kind of getting rid of these. Anomaly. Land uses that it's just really like in the meadow, everybody is. You know, there's, there's a lot of condominiums, but they're almost always in the same building sharing a law. Uh, I don't know if too many other properties that still exist. I know I know of a few, but not in the meadow anyway. And the meadow is, is getting much tighter packed. Uh, there's a lot of, uh, Seems to be a lot of activity and increasing the. The amount of units in certain buildings and so forth. And this is a great opportunity to, to break these two apart. Um, The shared driveway situation has been working flawlessly for all of this time because it's a nice big, wide driveway. It's flat. It's straight. It's short. And it's got plenty of room on one side for parking. So, um, that's all been kind of figured out. And, um, the utilities run under the driveway to the back house, which is as it should be the front house has its own sewer and water system that runs nowhere near the driveway. So really the houses are, are completely separate. The other thing that's of interest is the, um, The back house, which is number five has a large backyard, which was always kind of shared by the two houses. But I need to say that it was a rare day when anybody from the front house ever went into that backyard because it was the backyard that the kitchen window and the, and so forth of the back house looked out on. So they've always really owned it in, in reality. Um, and the subdivision seems to take care of that perfectly. It just seems like it's exactly why the zoning was changed. And I don't know what else can I tell you? I do. The discussion of the sharing the driveway is interesting. Um, should I just pass these out or? Yeah. Um, You can just give them down one end and we'll pass them down. Um, I don't know if there's enough, but there's some, I think it's five or five of them. Yeah. I can get one later. But, um, I think we got Jim Palmos auto to try to clarify the, the message that the, that the, the two houses when they're separated will share all the maintenance. Of the driveway and any repairs and plowing and so forth. Again, it's really small. We don't plow. Uh, somebody with a snow blower takes care of it. It's worked all this time and it's not disruptive. So I'm sure that that's how it would continue. Um, I don't know. I don't know. Um, he wrote it up pretty nice so that the, it's an easement for the, um, For the front house or the number seven vine street to use the driveway and the parking spaces and. Is even indicated on a site plan or, um, that's, that's a separate element, but indicated where the parking spaces would be located. And, uh, and so there's a lot of, uh, you know, There's a lot of, there's a lot of a lot of people bump out there with, uh, with a Nizalia plant or not a fire bush and a little bit of, uh, Rock work around it that actually defines those. Defines those parking places. Go ahead, Kevin. Yeah. So, uh, is there one water connection for both houses and that, that so they have their own separate. Attachment to city water. Yes. And then sewer as well. Yeah. Yeah. John, you said you had brought the site plan that I have electronically. Yes. Right. Do you want to pass that around? Cause this, so the, the sketch plan that you have right now. Doesn't have where the water lines run and everything. And that was one of the things I called out in my staff report. And they actually have an updated one now. And I, I can also share screens. You guys. Yeah. I mean, I just, I just remember some of the older houses in the old neighborhood. We'd have one water connection for, you know, five or six. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's still, department of public works is still dealing with those. So this shows where the water line, there's a water line here. Water line here. And this is showing. So this will be a version of a new site plan that will come in with the final application. So there's designated parking spots here. We have that. We don't know yet. Yeah. I don't see the sewer on here. I just see the water. Yeah. So this could be something that's just cleaned up before. Yeah. And the back house it travels the entire length of the drive. Okay. Yeah. So we've got, yeah, because we have the electric and we have water, but just for the final application, I don't see sewer on here. Um, No, who would have that? Department of Public Works. Oh, okay. Potentially. Um, Yeah, I think the biggest concern is to make sure that. But, but you don't need any easement or access to maintain. Yeah. I think a testing that that's where they run. Um, as well as, you know, department of public works for the final will confirm that there's separate. Um, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. The owner of the driveway is the house in the rear. And so the house on the left there. Seven, I guess we're going to have an easement for the driveway, but the person who owns the driveway will also have their utilities under that driveway. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Did you get a chance to review the staff report? I did. Yes. All right. So there any, any questions and issues in there about moving forward or what not? It didn't seem to be anything. I mean, there was the issue of the language. Yeah. Yeah. Which we've been working on just to make sure that. That's going to be easily understood. And then there was some question about a nearby fire hydrant, which. So where, where there's a fire hydrant. On fine street. Well, I'll be able to help you find that. Yeah. I'll be able to help you find that. We'll walk around the neighborhood. I've got them all on my, my mapping software in the office. Honestly, I've never seen one here. There might be one near Meadow, Mars. I bet, I bet we can find it. And it'll, it'll work out. Well, you and I'll have a meeting this week. Great. Oh. Yeah. I mean, a lot of these issues, it's like, you know, it's like this part of the process where it's like, we don't need to run through and like address them and just to make sure that. Any big issues that look like they needed addressing. Yeah. You know, it was, it seemed like there were a few details that were like something about 20 years. But I believe that Jim wrote it forever. Yeah. So I don't think that would be a problem. So you mentioned that the, the, there's a rear yard here for the five by fine street. Yeah. Parcel. Yes. And so it looks like it's shown here as like a separate. Lot almost. No. Those are setbacks. Yeah. These are the setbacks. This little line, I think, is because that maybe used to be a separate parcel at one point. It got merged. So that little line, I not quite, is it on the. Key. Yeah. So there's a, there's a right of way here, I think for maybe utilities or something. Okay. But it's not, it's not a parcel line, the bold lines of the parcel lines. Does that make sense? I mean, it just, it looks like an interior lot line. You know, to me and I don't know, I think it would. Make sense to call it out to just say that there's not too lots there. But it just, it's got a book and a page called out on the plat. As separate than the five vine street. Wait, wait. Right. So, oh wait, because you're looking at that. Right. Not the. Now I see what you're talking about. I think it was a. It could very well be another parcel line. I think it's just. Yeah. Yeah. We'll, we'll clear it up with Richard. Separately. Yeah. The original owners make sense. I think it, it would just. It's only been two owners in all these years. Right. Butlers. For what? Hundred years. So what do you want it to look like? I mean, I think, I think it would just be, make sense that like the. To just clarify that that line is going to go away if it exists. So Richard Bell could tell you exactly what it is. You know, you wouldn't want someone coming in and you know, 10 years being like, we actually have a three lots here and not, you know, and not two, but I don't have an issue. I'm sure we. Looks like you use the same designation to use for setbacks. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so there's, well, so there's the. Right. Cause. Cause it's also. Rob's looking at the draft. That you submitted versus what I have up on the screen right now. Is the site plan. Right. So the site plan shows the setbacks. But this line here. Don't see where my hand is on there. That's the one that's a little funky because it's got this line here. It's got a lot of dashes that's very much like the bold property boundaries here. Yeah. And just say, right. I think because he's not. It may be because it's not 100% clear. On the deeds. What. What happened there? Yeah, I would just, I think that it would be mature bell. I want to do. Yeah. He understands. I'm sure. So. Yeah. All right. That's really all I had for questions on this. Like. Yeah, there's some issues to address, but it seems like you're working very well with Meredith and what not to, you know, address them and that's what this process is for to do a weather report. So anyone else have any. I'm pretty satisfied. I mean, to me, the, the issue was utilities and. Yeah. You've answered that. Is there anything else you would want to hear from us? No, I think you've done a great job and. You're teasing crossing your eyes and you're on the right track. So anyone else. Yeah, wonderful. Thanks. I'll work with you guys and. Feel free to. To be an email tomorrow with when you are. Want to try and meet. Over the next couple of days. I won't be in the office on Friday, but I'll be in the office the next. You've been great. Yes. We appreciate it. And can I get one copy at least of my. No, I don't need none. It's just a big site plan. Oh, big site plan. Yeah. That would be. Not that. That's probably in the process of changing anyway. Great. Well, thank you so much. You're welcome so much. Got tired of climbing up on the roof and cleaning the gutters. I have. I have a lot of work to do. I have a lot of work to do. But with ours, there's a couple of really huge pine trees. Beautiful. Yeah. But the entire. Every porch roof is like. Got six inches of pine. Every time. Yeah, I know. And like, you know, who has to do that. We have to do it all. You couldn't. Rent them at a reasonable price, which is us. Yeah. Always. Always below market. Reasonable. We have to do all the work ourselves. If we had hired that work, then they would be paying. A couple of thousand dollars a month or whatever people paid today. And we've just always gotten to know our tenants and really care about them. So we are done though. We have some luck, right? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Right. So the next application is our. 2481 Elm Street. Chris and Marcus. Paul. That doesn't do. I'm cool. I'm Chris Hammer. And I want to fill out the application. Paul was like a country somewhere. But I'm really just being. Support for Paul. So he's the guy who initiated the project. And I'll Paul Markowitz. I'll Paul Markowitz. I'll Paul Markowitz. I'll Paul Markowitz. I'll Paul Markowitz. Paul. I'll Paul Markowitz. Paul Markowitz. I'll Paul Markowitz. I'll Paul Markowitz. I'll Paul Markowitz. I'll Paul Markowitz. Alright. Thank you. So. Meredith, do you want to just start it here? Yeah. It's just a second. Perfect. Uh, so. Uh, this is another sketch plan subdivision. And a fun little twist on this one is that the smaller parcel being created is actually currently developed. It's developed with a community guard. And that's one of the few things that could actually be on that land because pretty much the whole section of land, this end of the existing bigger parcel is within the flood plane. A large part of it is also within the river corridor, which is an area of land that needs to be kept free of really any big structures because it's an area where under our river hazard area regulations, we want the river to be able to move should it need to because natural rivers move and shift their banks. And so there is very, very little that could be built on this piece of land, but agriculture is an allowable use. So this is actually one of the things that could happen and have this be subdivided and still be used. So it's a nice little combination of circumstances. The remainder of the parcel is going to remain as is. There weren't really any big red flags on that one. You've seen the staff report. So time for questions and feedback. Perfect. You guys want to give a little update on where you've been, where you're going? Closer to the microphone, Paul, because you're, I thought I'd just give a little background on how we got to this point. So the land was owned by Donnie Goat, had been in his family maybe 40 years or so. And Donnie had a serious illness. He passed actually about two months ago or so and he was sick for a while, quite a while, and he had deeded the land and given power of attorney to three people whose name Tina Gallison is the principal person to that. Anyhow, they had made it clear that when Donnie died, and we've known he was impending that he was going to be dying, he was in hospice, that the land was going to be sold. They were going to sell the land. And we realized that it was an opportunity that if the land was like it had been a community garden for about 35 years, and the land was sold, there was going to be no guarantee that the property would be able to remain as a community garden. So I approached the Tina and on her behalf, she reached out to Donnie Goat, I had actually suggested something like a conservation easement, and they got back to me and basically said that he wanted to donate the land to the city. I was pleasantly surprised and happy to hear that. And so back in the fall we applied for and got a grant from the Conservation Commission to cover basically the cost of doing the survey for the set the boundary for the lot, as well as any legal costs associated with the transfer. We have made it clear to Tina Gallison that she doesn't have to do, there's no expense to her, no effort for her, we'll do all the work associated with that. It turns out that to get the minimum two acre lot side that it almost perfectly coincides with the existing parcel where the community garden is, the boundary, the property is great. Basically straight shot from the road to the river and covers the two acres of the community garden. You know, what else we're actually really excited at the idea that I was telling somebody that it feels like we're going from being a renter to an owner, be a member of the city. I don't know. So that's kind of the background, we're really excited, community gardeners, we have about 20 somewhat gardeners there, about 30 plots or so, the overall parcel is about two acres, maybe about an acre of it is actually in garden, river bottom, really fertile land. So, there he is, and the agreement with the land owner, current land owner is they wanted to see the garden, the land continue as a community garden. So we've actually put together a draft deed said that the land is going to be restricted to cultural purposes and as a community garden. That was their primary interest. She is expressed to me that her interest is in carrying out the wishes of her friend Donnie passed away to make sure this land continues as a community garden that his fathers offered to the gardeners there, you know, 35 years ago, so I don't know. There are no structures at all on the land. I mean, other than like a little shed or something, but nothing more substantive than that. So excuse me for actually asking a question that might be obvious, but so why does it need to be a subdivision? Well, the owners are going to sell the property, they're going to sell the entire parcel. Right. So we're talking about peeling off two acres. Oh, the total of the total. OK, what's the size of the total? It's 13.2. OK, thank you. Yeah, that's what I'm looking for. That's fine. Yeah, and just to be clear that the land, once we go through all this, that the land would be owned by the city. And so we've been in conversations with the city about, you know, what would this what do we need to do to make sure they're comfortable with that, you know, from our side, the gardener's side to make that happen. But they don't have the plan. So, yes, I know that garden has been there forever, pretty much. What is the water source of the north branch? Huh? Excuse me, the northern branch. Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah, we don't have any. That's a potential future upgrade. But basically, you want water, you haul it from the river. So, yeah, yeah. And there's also rain, too. That's always a good thing. We're a big fan, which we have plenty of right now. We're really good rain bikes to be saying. So the fact about the deed restricting the use of it, I think, it's kind of important here, helpful, I guess, here, you know, just because we're approving this subdivision, creating a line of perpetuity, someone comes along and is like, well, no, I want to build a house. But like, well, it's in a flood plain. You can. We would think about ways to, you know, communicate that during this process that like, well, yeah, like you look at this map and 75, 80% of this is not buildable. Um, I guess my question is, I don't know the answer to it is whether we require at least some version of the. River corridor in the flood plain depicted on the plot to sort of, you know, not just parcel one, maybe that's a comment you made, but I can't remember if I put that in here and not, um, but I think that even if it's not on the plot, you could require that on a site plan. We can easily add that. Yeah, to show where the river corridor and then the flood plain limits are. I think that would be definitely doable. By the way, we have a shared draft copy of the deed with the city's turning and he's signed off on it or not officially, but basically some of those. Yeah, so that that could also be something. If you want to see that and how that be part of the file. Yeah, I mean, just so you can see the language and then it's, I don't know that, yeah, that that could be an attestation. Yeah, I mean, I think just like a brief note on the plot, you know, if you, you know, have that executed or know that prior to the end, just like noting it that, you know, there's this deed that explains the rights for, you know, this parcel as you guys are acquiring it, you know, could be helpful for a number of reasons going into the future. If that makes sense. So like what's going to be so that you're going to exchange deeds, you know, to get this, you know, property, right? And there's going to be some language for the city that this is going to be, you know, a parcel specific before a community garden. Somehow noting that condition on the survey, because the survey also gets recorded, could be helpful in the future for, you know, someone just being reminded that there's only one thing you can do with this, you know, with this land. So the, so when for the subdivision process, right? A lot of times you can have a subdivision and somebody will subdivide the land and record that final plat in the city land records before it's actually transferred, right? Before you do the exchanging of deeds and all of that. Sometimes you do it all together. So that would let you, if you ended up, were able to synchronize it so that when you recorded the final plat that says, yes, this is just own piece of land. If you sequence that so that on the same day, everybody was also signing, recording the deeds. And that's just possible because you have to sign off on that. Yeah. Plat. Right. Um, but if you can do that in that way, the plat will have a deed reference on it, or at least a note that says, you know, at the same time, a deed with use restrictions, and you can put the name of it was recorded in the land records. And that's a note, a new note on this plat so that somebody who only sees the plat still sees where the new deed is, right? Cause right now it's plat is only referencing prior deeds as notes on it as to where other lines came from, where other information came from. Sounds easy. And I think the surveyor, I think intended to record the plat after, I mean, it could be simultaneous, but I'm assuming that she'll be able to reference a new deed. Well, cause you can't, you can't create the partial and transfer the land until the survey is done. And I mean, I don't need to call out the exact open page. You can put a note on the plat that says like a lot one to be conserved for whatever language is in that deed, community garden. Like that is enough of a notice that says, Oh, okay. I'd better go look for that. Yeah. So the time the city council has to obviously approve the deed. So you're saying after that happens, when the signing of the deed happens, then then it's, well, how about, how about, how about we talk so that we can go through everything that we want to put in the final application? Okay. Um, and how, because I, I am not up to speed on everything you have done with the city for the transfer. So we'll work out the details. But I think, I think what Rob just said about having a note in here that says this land, you know, which is it proposed lot one shall be conserved via deed restrictions for, and then whatever language you've got in the language that you're running through for the deed. Um, and that can be something also that, you know, the city attorney can probably take a look at to make sure it's just consistent with the way they want it referenced. That should be pretty easy to add. Yeah. It's, it'll be an easy, it'll be an easy note to add. Um, and that's just, it's, like Rob said, it's a little red flag for whoever looks at the plat. It goes, ooh, I better go find that deed right now. Yeah. Oh, you know, the community garden has been in existence for a long time. Hopefully it will continue to be in existence for a long time, but you never know what happens. Yeah. I mean, those two things that the river corridor, flood limits, nothing that has to be like surveyed, certified, you know, by a, you know, elevation certificate or anything like that, you don't need to go down that road. But just like, you know, plotting what information the city has to give context to, you know, what the parcels look like. So your preference should be to have that on the planet itself. Oh, it doesn't need to be on the plat. I mean, a site plan. Yeah, we can add a site plan. Yeah. Use, use this basic information, but make it a site plan in front of them. It's all, it's all digital data. So you can add it to them. Yeah. And that's, I mean, the state's updating their maps by the end of the summer. So having that on the site plan makes more sense than would put on something recorded because those lines can change. Yeah. What else? No, I have a question. Yeah. There was a note in your comments, Meredith, about impervious surfaces on the other parcel. Yeah. Yeah. And what, what is it that you actually need from us related to that? So a general statement in the final application, right? It doesn't have to be exact because we know it, it means that the requirement as to, you know, an estimate of how many square feet of impervious surface are left on that parcel. So it's the, you know, like the footprint of the buildings and the, um, graveled driveways. We can, we can calculate that on Google. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was one of the things where I was able to do an estimate quickly on my stuff, but I was like, I'm not going to try and actually get it exact. And it's, you know, it's clearly going to be less than the max allowed, but it's just getting that as much as possible in those final applications. We want the data to be coming from you versus my filling it in. No, we can do that. Anything else? Any other questions? This is like mom and apple pie, right? Yeah. Somebody awesome. This is great. It doesn't get better than this, right? Yeah. I mean, one thing I could add, there was an issue that came up, it's actually Tina brought it up. She's dealing with subdivision in Williston where it's as much smaller parcel and they're having to get a state septic permit. And so she, she brought that up to me and I was like, that's going to be a drag. So I contacted a engineer in Waterbury and said, I need an estimate because I have to, Paul, you got to raise more money and they came back to us and said, because of the configuration of the law, and actually I was able to, you sent me the reference in the, in the state rules that because the existing septic system is more than 500 feet away from the law, what they're worried about is that you're taking off two acres. Maybe that's the place for the replacement septic. Clearly it's not floodplain. You couldn't put a replacement field there, but there's plenty of room on the existing law to have a replacement because initially, if you don't have that distance, you got to actually design a replacement field. If there hasn't been one already identified and that I have to happen before we could get, because we need to get a state subdivision permit as well. Sounds like we don't need to do that. So it's just a big relief. If you have something in writing from the state versus just the email you sent to Paul, maybe put that whatever you got in writing from the state in the final application. Yeah, I'm trying to get a confirmation of that from the state engineer. Awesome. And I haven't, you know, I've been created for months back and forth. The state, it takes a while sometimes. Your proposed language to about it only being a community garden is helpful. Yeah. So you can include that. Right. You definitely need a septic service for a community garden. I mean, we require them to go through that process to somewhere in our rigs. It's, so because of what the use is, DBW isn't going to make them. And we need, we need something from clarifying that they're not going to need those state permits. Right. Because I mean, they're out past city water and sewer. And so just confirmation that they don't need that because otherwise they would need to show that they can comply. Yeah. So yep, you were right on the right track with that one. Good. You guys, you guys got to it before, before I got to it in my staff report. So it was nice. I'd seen that the email, but we definitely need that something from the state. Yeah, shouldn't be an issue or worked at a farm where we're into this all the time and it should be a five sentence. Yeah, disclaimer. So the rules are pretty clear. Yeah. We probably should have a state employee confirm that our interpretation of the rules. Yeah. If you can. That's a really good thing. Yeah. So just in terms of timing for the phase two here on our application. So we're going to read work. This is my first time to this time. So we're going to resubmit with the information you've asked here that we're going to submit the final application. So when, once we do that, when can we get on the before the DRV again? So it'd be good if we had an email exchange about this tomorrow so that I can actually look back at my calendars. I believe we're taking applications right now for June 5th hearings. And because you don't need to go to design room. Email me tomorrow because I have to look at my list. It's a complicated list because May has an extra week in it. So it could be the deadlines this Friday. It could be next Friday, but call or email me tomorrow when I can look at the calendar on my wall. And that would get you on June 5th. That's the next available date. June 5th. June 5th would be the hearing date. And then the actual permit can't get issued until there's a written decision. And that just takes some time. And then as fast as we can. And there's a 30-day appeal period after the permit. There's a 30-day appeal period after the written decision is issued. That starts when it's signed by the chair or whoever chairs. It's not always a problem. Right. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I know you guys were trying to do this a lot sooner. It's just we hit the hurdles of what's required. We have to agree to use the garden from the current owners. You do. Starting today. Starting today. Yeah. Good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Wait till the middle of July or August. Fresh to move this thing is a little bit off, but we want to keep it moving. So good. Well, thank you. And by the way, Meredith's been way helpful. So thank you. We know. Good to hear you. Have a good night all. Good night. Thank you. Have a good one. What was that last thing? Good bridge. I'm good. Have you done one turbo? Regarding. But like. Oh, yeah. There's a DGP restriction to bloodplain and we were put around the site plan to make sure that thanks for your service. Yeah. I mean, we're just suck it out. Just state that we stand. Yeah. It's in my, it's in my staff report, but. Well, it's just like waiver of development rights, right? That's that. Oh, there's that video. So, so I think that's fine. The point they were trying to make was that the. Partial that has the house and business that has a septic. Yeah, they had failed to have to have something from the state clarifying that removal was laying. Is it gonna hurt those? So it's double because we have to look at both parcels right? Make sure. Yeah. Carving off the sheet stuff in the floodplain. I know exactly. Cool. Yeah. They made us. Yeah. Yeah. I had different emails. I go and pours out the town clerk emails from the like state for that like waiver. Oh my gosh. Well, that's I mean, that's basically what we're gonna make them do. Yeah, exactly file. Yeah. Um, right. Yeah, first I'm going to use myself excellent choice. Perfect. All right. I just go up there. And that's logged into zoom. So you logged in so you can share some screens or something to. Yeah, that's already a log in as long as you don't have to share anything and I wouldn't worry about it. That's recusal acknowledged. So yeah, don't little difference. Don't even touch anything. Just worry about the microphone. All right. So we do have to swear you and this is the real deal. So I do. Would you raise your right hand to be sworn in as witness? Do you follow me slayer or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of her tree. I did. Great. Um, it switched to surround. You want to go first and do your presentation. The narrative chime in. Sure. I can just give a quick overview of the project and some of the complications with it. Um, so I live at 17 Bailey Avenue, a single family home. We share a driveway with the neighbor actually very similar situation as to what was just before the board with an easement to use our driveway. So my house is very, very close to the property line because it's right on that driveway, basically, and that's the first issue is the setback issue. But into the project. There is a house is basically a two story box with four rooms in each box or each floor. And then off the back is like a porch. It's called a solarium in the official National Historic Register. But it's two stories and the bottom almost certainly used to be open, but it's been since glassed in and the upper story is also glassed in. It's like a sleeping porch off one of the bedrooms. Um, there's no foundation under it. It's just a porch with some glass on it. So it's not even Vermont really a three season space more of like a two season space. And then it's really not that pleasant in the summer either because all that glass acts like a greenhouse and it gets pretty hot in there and the house doesn't have air conditioning or anything. So it's just hot. Being totally uninsulated is just not terribly useful. It's being used mostly for storage things like that, but you leave your shoes out there in the winter and then you come out in there, you know, blocks of ice here, jackets or anything. Everything's as cold as it is outside. Just doesn't get snow on it. Um, so the plan is to remove it entirely and rebuild it much in the same footprint of it will be two feet wider, two feet towards the back. Um, so no closer to either of the properties any of the side, but it will go back towards us towards the back of the property like two feet. Um, there'll be a foundation insulation. It will be a real part of the house. Um, and another major difference is right now there's a flat roof on top of it, much like a porch, it will become a peak through the flat roof is starting to it just directs water kind of back at the house, especially on the corners and is rotten away my eaves there. So that's going to have to get dealt with one way or another, whether the project got done or not with a peaked roof and a gutter system shouldn't be a problem anymore. Um, yeah, other than that, uh, one of the major issues with the project is that the building is in the national of contributing structure of the National Historic Register. It's in the application. Um, so I did have to get approval from the DRC, which I've gotten, um, I went before the historic preservation committee that gave me some pointers on what they would like to see. Uh, so honestly, they didn't have much. Um, just a couple of details about the Eve or the, what do you call it, the cornice at the top of the addition and, uh, there's a ice pass through that still exists and we're going to try and save the front of this ice pass through, it can't be functional anymore the way that the configuration of the new addition is going to be because of this little porch that's going to be kind of where it is now. Um, but on the inside, it will still remain the same. Um, we're not really changing anything on the inside of the house, except that the current entryway from the back porch is going to become a pantry and current bathroom is going to become an entryway. Um, yeah. Uh, in the addition, we're going to add a bathroom on both floors. So that will kind of bump up the number of bathrooms in the house right now. There's a single bathroom upstairs for the four bedrooms. Now there'll be two, which would be significant change, especially for my wife and I. Um, and yeah, downstairs would be a mudroom and then we're relocating the bathroom and that's about it. Joe, when was the original house built? Nineteen, 18, I believe. Same year, the road sucks one in the world series and, uh, we believe everything was original to the house except for the glass on this first story. So this seems to be like very two separate like application criteria. It's one is demolition. Part of a portion of a historic structure and the other is a setback waiver. Yep. This is just treated as two different reasons. They're here. That's just be organized and treat. This is two applications in a sense and maybe we just go over the setback criteria first. Yeah. And then we can tackle the other one. So the, uh, the newly put up for new zoning rate require that we grant a waiver. Wait. So this is a, it's not a choir that you grant a waiver, but it gives you the option to grant a waiver if the criteria are met. It's a because what, what's being requested for getting closer to the property line is within a range that's that the board is allowed to grant a waiver. It doesn't have to go to a variant stage or something more, more a higher tier. What's, what's the cutoff for that? For having to go to, uh, if the request was to have the building closer than five feet to the property line, you would have to go to a variance. And at that point it has to be that there's really no other way for you to use the property. Um, okay. We're not there. Okay. Which is great. We're in the waiver, waiver role, which is there's just the two criteria chunks, um, criteria were, um, from figure four zero two. So this is on page five of the staff report and that's actually has four parts to it. Um, but the, the allowing this addition to continue to be, is it six feet from the property line? Approximately, approximately six feet from the property line that allowing that won't alter the essential character of the neighborhood or district. Um, won't substantially or permanently impaired lawful use or development of adjacent property won't reduce access to renewable energy resources and won't be exorcist or which is going to be detrimental to the public welfare. And then the proposed development is beneficial or necessary for the continued reasonable use of the property. And this is just, you know, the, the current portion is the same distance from the property line. This is just continuing that for two additional feet. So my question, I'm sure there's a good answer for it. The, uh, the waiver analysis versus the, uh, like enlargement of a non-forming structure analysis. Okay. So I actually had this conversation with Mike earlier today because we were talking about something else. Um, so a non-conforming structure is one that does not currently comply with the zoning regulations, the existing zoning regulations. But when it was constructed, it could have gotten a permit at that time, right? For the, for the right, or there was no need for a permit when it was built, right? Which is the situation, the situation. Yeah. So yes, this is a non-conforming structure right now for the setbacks. However, Joe is here asking for a permit to just continue where it is, right? If the permit is granted now, because you can, because there's an allowance for a waiver, it will now, the entire thing be a conforming structure. It just will have gotten a waiver to be a conforming structure, right? It is, you're granting a waiver for something you're allowed, you're allowed to do this. Now, if you have something and we're, Mike and I are talking about this, there are places where you're not allowed to make it worse, right? So we've had situations where say this was two feet from the property line. No. You can't now get a waiver to continue that. It is not an allowable waiver. Sure. Distance. Because it's very good because it's less than five feet, right? It's less than five feet. Right. And so in that instance, somebody would be asking to, to expand that non-conformity, which again, you're not allowed to do either. But here basically, it's a using a waiver to, to convert a non-conforming structure to what will now be a conforming structure with a waiver. Yeah. So we're going to get the waiver. Yeah. No, I think, I think that rush. It's not one or the other. It's the fact that in this case, like, that one kind of like leads, like leads into the other. There's a, there's a connection between the two analysis. It's going through that in here. Yeah. I figured it would come up. Yeah. But yeah, because something got a waiver to be built does not mean it's now not, does not mean it's non-conforming. Yep. Which is interesting. I mean, you know, the whole concept of, so yeah. Right. You got a permit and now you comply with the regs just with a waiver that was allowed. I mean, it's like, we were talking informally or before the meeting and essentially. You're closer. Essentially we're, we're providing precedent on behalf of the new regulations. Yeah. So, okay. So as long as we know what we're getting into. I mean, this is, this is, but it's, it's why there's waivers in here. Yeah. Right. It's while the waivers are very specific. Right. Right. Pretty much when they redid this pretty much every time there's a waiver, there's a very specific range in which the board is allowed to act with that waiver. Outside of that, you start getting into variance territory where so far, you know, pretty much it's really, really hard to go there. Okey-doke. I'm all good on the, that analysis as far as the waiver goes for the setback. I get it. It meets criteria. Yeah. It's the criteria. All right. So part one complete demolition of portion of a historic structure. Meredith. Tell you, you're doing so well. So I'm hoping everybody read the case that they added to the packet. Yes. So a lot of the, not a lot of, but the most recent demolition 14 Liberty street, the board decided that on more of the economic standard versus the community benefit. Standard that we have in our regulations. When the environmental court heard that appeal on the Nova review, which means they put themselves in the place of the board, so they're not critiquing what the board did. They just step in and look at everything fresh and they accept new evidence. So there was, there was a bunch of new evidence about historic nature of the barn as well as financial stuff about the property. All sorts of new information was put in. The court decided that there was not sufficient evidence to make that economic determination and instead the court went with the community benefit determination and used language from the city plan as well as language within the regulations themselves to look at what the city had already determined were goals and things that were beneficial to the community the whole based on policy statements. And so, you know, I think that the fact that the court went that way to me indicates that that is a good way to go that there's some examples here as to how to look at facts that are available. And so that's what I tried to lay out in the staff report. But it's, you know, it's really the board. It's almost like the board is having to look at this provision again with new eyes to figure out how it feels about that. Do know that the Historic Preservation Commission, Mike Miller and I are all working on trying to come up with a better demolition provision that is much clearer and has multiple steps into it. So that maybe early on if there's a decision made, you can just sort of be like, no, we don't have to worry about this anymore. But I don't know if it's going to make it for this next go around. It's a complicated issue. So hopefully this year, but it might not be till next year. So you guys got to help. Yeah. You got to work as to how to be able to guide applicants as to what needs to be in their application. I mean, did we look at another application where the energy efficiency of it was considered part of the public benefit? Right. Yeah, we did. That was a good one. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, yeah, I mean, I think it's great to have guidance on this. It's it was always a, we didn't know which way to go and everyone applying for an application like didn't know which provision to go. It's, you know, it's just, it was kind of murky. So maybe this makes it easier already. How does Joe, how does your application and your project benefit the public? Well, I wrote it in my narrative actually, and I basically based that around, you know, we're improving the structure. Like you said, that's a totally uninsulated space. And if you look at the pictures on the upstairs, that sleeping porch, which is uninsulated is connected to the bedroom by two double glass doors. So, and that's assuming that most of the house is like what we would conventionally call insulation also. So this new portion and basically the entire side of the rear of the house, it's going to be have modern insulation, the roof area will have modern insulation. Right now, we can't even really use that bedroom in the winter because the door would turn off the radiator that goes up there. And if someone needs to stay there, we'll warm it. But I'd be heating it all day every day, you know, if I actually use that room. So it's just my point of view is it's going to make the house better in every way. There's no way that it's not making the house better. It'll be more usable year round. It'll be a better space to use in the case of the mudroom that we use the porch right now. It'll be better to use an insulated mudroom. It'll be easier to access the house right now. You have to go through two double doors in the space of like two of these chairs and it's pretty tight, especially if you're carrying like a car seat or something like that. We'll have like a real entryway now into the house with like a modern with door and only one of them that's insulated. So that's my whole point really in the narrative is that we're going to make the house better. And if it's up to the board, whether or not you think that that makes the community better, whether that's substantial. I mean, it's a single family home. It's not like I can feed a thousand people from it. You know, there's I don't know how much a single family home can really benefit the community other than just be a better single family home. When was the porch built? It looks like it was in original. No, it's original. We think it's original. Okay. If it wasn't original, it was pretty darn close because we found reference to it. 1927. Yeah. Oh, okay. So it was very documentation of it. It's exactly the same construction practices and everything. That's the front porch that sounds like sounds like it's original structure then, but then they just put glass in between tapered posts. So that's like kind of just set in there. So did like did the design review of the historic preservation permission Friday like guidance or highlights? It's like what the defining historic features were of this, you know, of this building. Yeah. They asked about natures of the design. So like it's a shingle house. So the addition is going to be shingled. Trim's going to be the same. The windows won't. They'll be modern, you know, insulated, double-pane windows, triple-pane are not insured, but they won't be exactly the same. But they also don't want you to copy it exactly. They don't want you to go get windows from an old house and put it in there and pretend kind of like that it was always part of the house. They want someone walking by to not even notice it, but someone who knows what they're talking about, obviously that's no. That's obviously different. Kind of is how I thought of it anyway, how they explained it to me. The facade and like the frontage of the street still maintains the same architectural style as the original. That's the other thing. If you go by my house, you might not even notice that this thing's there. I mean the house itself is completely blocking it. It's set back on one side significantly and on the other side slightly, maybe like two feet. So it's like I said, the house is really a box with this porch kind of added onto it. Even if it's all original, but you can't see it from like in front of the house like a from Google Maps. So you have trouble even noticing it in the back there. So my neighbors that will see it every single day. They have absolutely no problem with the project. They're excited about it. I guess you could say my other neighbors who can sort of see it there. They have no problem with the project. They're the only ones, real ones that matter. The other property that's a budding mind. There's a giant barn. It's like right up against my property line. They can't even be a foot of distance between our property line and this barn, but it's two stories tall. They can't even see my whole house little on this porch from their house. You have to be in my yard to see the house. So, oh no, I don't think it's a detriment to to the community. I don't think I don't think anyone's going to notice unless they notice the construction trucks. It's even going on really. So, so yeah, that's saying it's both architectural style, but also the scale and desperate and experience is pretty much changed by the project. Yeah, that was another thing that Historic Preservation Commission commented on. We're not like leaving like the front of my house and then building like an eight room mansion off the back. We're just making the existing footprint slightly larger and making the interior space way more usable. So it's not really like affecting the character of the house really at all. It'll feel different when you're inside, but it won't look really any different from the outside. As far as usability goes. So say 15 years down the road, 20 years down the road, you sell this house, you've done this great project. Would that owner have more or less work to do in order to like upkeep on the house in this portion? My I would imagine less. So my my my point being is that what they may have less more opportunity to put maintenance into the front part of the house and the other remaining portions of the house. I would say that's a very astute observation. Yes. And it's certainly the case. At least hope, right? Well, that's all I needed. Yeah, I just think that the that in so many instances in Montpelier, as we look at historic preservation, especially when the design review committee has looked at it and they feel good with it. The historical society is like that. They feel good with it that the public benefit of added insulation is awesome. You know, I mean, it's ticking all those other boxes. Yeah. You know, one house at a time. Yeah, I agree. Similar discussion earlier this year. It's like there is a public benefit of reducing energy. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, climate mitigation. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that properly sealing and insulating and up taking care of a failing portion of the house or to be failing portion of the house protecting the well, the good architecture of the other is also public benefit. And just as a clarification to make sure everybody's aware the addition is going to be on a foundation. So that's going to also take any like pull off the back of the house. It's all going to be properly supported. Yes. Although it's been there for a hundred years. So for a hundred years, it's going to be good. But who knows? You'll see what's going on in there. Once you take it off. So there were some informal recommendations from the design review. Like I don't see a need to let condition this permit and include those. I think that, you know, I trust their guidance. And the force at which they put behind those, if they wanted us to approve those as part of the permit, they would. Is that other people see those the same way? Oh, yeah. We're too glad to hear your supreme process, Mary. Oh, for the requested demolition that when we have this kind of advice from the design review committee that some, you know, we have, yeah, we can give that credence. It's supposed to starting from scratch. Well, I mean, we're so design review committee. This the property is in the design review overlay district. So it had to go through there. The nice thing is, you know, Joe had the option to go before the historic preservation commission as well and was willing to do that. So that was a completely optional in the future. It might not be optional for applicants depending on the scale of what they're trying to do. Um, people who may we may end up doing something where it's like, well, you hire your own expert or go see our city experts and get an opinion, but we need an expert before it comes to you guys. So you guys have something to somebody else's opinion to consider a motion. Alrighty. Motion from Sharon. Motion to approve demolition of a two-story and closed solarium on the back of 17 Bailey Avenue and to grant a four-foot waiver of the north side setback for construction of a two-story addition on the rear as presented in application number Z two zero two three zero zero three eight and supporting and supplemental materials. Second. Motion by Sharon second by Kevin Sharon. How do you vote? Yes. Kevin. Yes. Yes. Yes. Rob votes. Yes. We have a unanimous approval. All right. Thank you all very much. I do have to be decisions to write before yours because last week was all staff reports. So it's going to be a little bit. But do you feel like you have more empathy for applicants now? Sitting here. We said they're sweating it out. I actually guys all made it very easy. Honestly. So one final I guess is approval. Yeah, sure. I'll become a board member again and I would definitely like to say thank you, Meredith, for all your help on this application. Big help. This house. Are you looking for a motion to approve the minutes? We are looking for a motion to approve the minutes for April 17th. We'd like to make a motion to approve the minutes for April 17th. Motion by Sharon. Second by Abby. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Minutes are approved for April 17th. That's it. Right. And rather stains from that because I wasn't there and whatnot. But that's fine. State statute. So the funny thing is I think when this got condensed onto one page for both DRB and DRC tonight, the next meeting date got removed from. The 15th. Except that. We have new applications for you and because nothing got continued tonight, there is no meeting on the 15th. So your next meeting is actually. Five weeks away because may has an extra Monday. So you don't need to get until June 5th. So don't be surprised if you see at least one of these sketch plan subdivisions in for final. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them files in time to get in. And then there's also potential. I haven't gotten all the pieces in yet potential additional use application. But, um, except we won't see Abby. Yeah. Yeah, you get to you get to just go have fun. Just enjoy the summer. Gee, while the rest of it is to tune in and watch every Monday on TV. Totally okay. If you're like. Not going to have that on my calendar. I'm going to enjoy. Well, I also accept a motion to adjourn. If anyone has one. So moved. Second. We have a second and a motion to adjourn. Nah. The eye. All right. All right. Great. Thank you everybody.