 Okay, I've done Roberts and Roswell, and I was the minority stockholder and the manager of a radio station here back in those days radio station KGFL, okay, and We we had we got word of it with the rancher himself word of the I beg your pardon of this UFO Of course, there was a release that came out of Walt Hott's PIO department out at Walker Air Force and So we followed it up. I did not go out Because I To the craft site. I did not go out to the craft side. Excuse me for being so hesitant about this If I'd look at the camera instead of you it perhaps would be easier That's why I'm sitting over here. So you can talk to me. Okay, so that's it Be that as it may We so you were aware of something going on out there And then directly from Walder's press release or other sources other sources as a matter of fact I don't know whether I should say this or not, but it was true. We hit off the rancher for one night Where yes, and we did we did some transcriptions with him on someone good old wire recorders If you will, where did you hide him out? We had him out of Mr. Whitmore's house here in town He lived out outside of the city limits on the east side So you were present at the actual interview. I was not I was trying to run the station the question that we Ran into is the very next morning some friendly person probably from Clinton Anderson's office called us from Washington and said You are we understand that you have some information and we want to assure you that If you release it on this matter because it's not supposed to be released It's very possible that your license could be in jeopardy and So we suggest that you not do it And he said when I mean in jeopardy like baby three days Did was there any suggestion when you got that phone call? I mean did Walt Whitmore? Hesitate about releasing information. Do you say well, we're not going to release it So you got the call. Yes, I was at the office you see CW Whitmore with who I worked Had different office hours and you and I he was a great nighttime worker and He came in about six o'clock at night to talk to me about the radio business About the time since I've been there since six o'clock So you got the phone call from Washington. Yes. Yes, and they told you that your license was in jeopardy Did you they they indicated that that would be a very negative thing What convinced you that they meant business and you were really talking to somebody important I don't even remember who it was who identified himself Was there any he convinced you but he convinced me because they'd already made such a stir about About the releases you see to the newspapers And so forth And so they'd in other words the clamps went on the story, but this was not unusual for me Because I had been down here for a couple years at that time for Minneapolis and with things like Aircrashes at Walker Air Force Base Problems of that sort it was not unusual for us to talk to the people and they'd say okay We've got a release date on this and not before and not before this time Of course, we always thought it because they always tried to take care of the afternoon newspaper Well, that was that was where my question was going when you got the phone call from Washington Was there any thought about going ahead to release the story anyway, or did you just immediately kill it? We didn't think so we didn't know so when you got the phone call you that was it the story was done That was as far as I was concerned. Okay, I saw no reason to do it because it already had the disclaimers out there 10 tons of them talking about these weather balloons and so forth So that was it the point is that I was unable. I never did see the material. I talked to people just as you Can't remember talk Now you say you hit out or what Whitmore hit out Brassel overnight on Oh, yes, but it was W. E. Whitmore. Yes, when it's senior senior So he had the 45 minute wire recording of Brassel's interview that I don't know how long it was And in those days with wire recorders only these are guys all before your time If you recorded 15 minutes, you took it back to the studio and it took you 15 minutes to rewind Do you remember whatever happened to that wire recording was a race? No, I haven't at that particular time There were there was quite a clamp on on discussion of this and because there were people who The wall thought of people who were pretty well convinced and Marcel was one of them and I knew all of those people out of Walker because we had remotes out there and we did lots of broadcasts out in there so I Don't think that the I think it we just decided that for Walt hot sake and so forth that we would sit tight Except whatever it was even though in our innermost mind We had real sudden real question about the validity of it Had they ever treated a story like this before had they ever created one had they ever treated a story in this way? Oh Not in this particular way because this was a highly unique experience However Did I say we were used to it because if there were crashes you didn't say anything about it? People have been there and all of this sort of well. Yeah, they they embargoed. Yes, precisely, but this was a total clamp down Well, I would say so soon. He was as far as we were concerned And there were there was no time limit They didn't say I've ever been I Can't tell you because you see I just got down here in 46 when I came down here from Dillsbury in Minneapolis And so I hadn't run into that sort of thing. There was lots of it when we were in the missile site Because if there was a problem we were advised and we were out there with our Lincoln lights and all that sort of stuff, but we held we sat on those things until there were decent releases People have asked me because it's been a discussion particularly after after your broadcast And that that revitalized in fact I was up in Craig Colorado Last week and the guy who hasn't been interested at all All of a sudden he's a fan and I sent him the book for more and so forth when I got home here on the weekend But but the point is that in so far as I was concerned People say do you think it was true and I said I don't know but I'll tell you this It's hard for me to believe that in this infinitesimally small area of the universe that we're the only people with any intelligence So if there are you and another thing that that interested me is because I had a friend who had a lot of hours I think it was with Northwest at that time and he had I don't know how many hours of as captain And when he said he saw something off the left wing Here's a guy who when he makes a statement if you're a disbeliever or an unbeliever You say boy don't want to fly with him because I think he's on that So he puts his own business in jeopardy so W. Whitmore had Brasov over night Only when they first came in How did he come across to you? I didn't talk to very much. We were frankly We were hiding the things for Halloween and we didn't want to make much of a stir on it Whitmore's lived way out on Easter. So that's that's about it. Did So Brasov is with Walt Whitmore overnight Yeah, did the military come and pick him up or did Whitmore take him to I think he turned him over Would it be fair to say that Whitmore surrendered him to the military or I don't think so because he was just a guest overnight Okay, so so you don't surrender a guest unless your name is this guy over in Iran But was the military was looking for him though. I think so. Yeah, what was he Whitmore? Hiding Brasov from the military or from your rivals. He was he we just had a good story So Whitmore was more worried about protecting his story than the military finding where Brasov was We are no reason to hide him out Particularly except we wanted to do some talking to him first. It so happened that it was all for nothing because we didn't use it Did okay, so that that next morning Whitmore decided he wanted to go out to the crash site No, I decided you do want to go out They went more dead out But out to the crash site or yeah, I think I don't know he couldn't get any closer than I did I thought we could do it with a back room or something. So you followed the back roads out toward Corona Sure, what happened when you got out toward the car? I just had some roadblocks. That was all and what I was on one of the back roads Well, if they had the whole thing you use the word cordon a minute ago I presume that might be a pretty well. I didn't pay that much attention to I wasn't driving We had another guy and and I was more interested in just getting out there and disappointed because Believe me, we didn't get close You say another guy you haven't remember who that was having the slightest idea. We had about six people working for the station So you went out to the to the area. We're stopped by the Sure, what did how did how do they do that? They just say sorry the roads closed. This is restricted area military men Yeah, we were used to that How would it with a within a jeep within a car? I can't imagine I imagine they're just one of their blue sedans And you will approach the fella came out on the road and waved you down But as a matter of fact the reason I'm so vague. I don't mean to be intentional Because of that thing it wasn't really a big deal because we've had these experiences before where Some accident had happened and where they they just kind of blocked off the whole area So it was perfectly reasonable as far as I was concerned So you didn't get out to the site you were turned down that one came back to Roswell. How close did you get roughly? I'd all bet I wasn't within 15 miles. I Don't know I have any idea because at that time they say it wasn't important We wanted we wanted to see this stuff Of course by that time it was all picked up certainly that day. That's about the story You said the stuff you've heard about What did you hear what you recall? Well, one of the things that I still remember specifically is that the material? They said was as thin as a wrapper on a lucky strike package But you couldn't break it and if you twisted it and scrunched it up together It would it would come back to its own deal. They tried to burn it and so forth and It was a it was it was it was a good mystery for a small town Of course, we had a large at that particular time. We had a lot of military people here as you know Do you notice any Extraordinary military activity in town at that time. Of course everybody started watching this guy So there was an attitude within the town itself. Oh very where night my thought was Looking back to the old days of the invasion if you remember more of the world. Yeah And the effect it had on people on the East Coast particularly I thought that perhaps maybe this was a good reason. I have reason now to believe that it was more than just protecting the public from getting upset over something After that, you know, we got into the Lubbock lights and all these And people that I knew who were highly respectable People long-time guys ranchers and people like that who saw some of these things and they had no reason to They had no reason to kid anybody About standing on side of their pickup and watching these lights go back and forth up in the mountains They're not that they're not the sort of people who needed to do that or was it their nature to be that sort of person Around the station. What was the general reaction to the weather balloon story? No, the weather balloons will be a launch to buy a block from us every night From me because they did that with the they did that with the Weather Bureau at that time that's how they got their readings. So whether balloons per se were not that not that interesting So you didn't buy that Explanation we really did it but we didn't have any good reason because that material was scattered up there as you will know It wasn't like Being able to see him or something goes down and there's a hell of an explosion and there's an exact dark place Did you ever have occasion to talk to say Colonel Blanchard or any of the people out at the base after this event and subsequent years and Learn anything from them. Maybe they said something to you off. I don't think so Bill Blanchard was One of the first guys I knew out there because he had served under my uncle who was a general in the Air Force Effectively, we had four guys out there who were commanders who had all been Students under him So I always made it a point to meet those people because they're nice people and we entertain them a few times and they Go in there for a drink or something But no, no, we didn't discuss it and I don't know why we didn't because That would have been the time to try to find out something After Whitmore turned razzle over Military You saw him after this did I see right you saw Whitmore certain. Oh sure The first chance you had to ask him about Why are recording I Do not know in retrospect why I didn't I just figured it was a dead story and And what you're saying is that Whitmore never told you what the rancher said Oh, yeah, just just plain discussion, but the rancher didn't say much Rancher really said hey I was out and I was riding and I saw this and this is what it looked like and I couldn't figure out what it was And so I came to town to tell some people and mentioned it to some people and pretty soon there was great interest And so I don't think that he himself went in there and did a lot of pseudo scientific experiments with this material There were all sorts of story about bodies been loaded into planes and all that sort of stuff and First that first bunch went right down to For worth to cars. Well, the rest of them I understood went back to Who's it accurate? You mean Dayton, right? Yeah, do you say others mean other aircraft or yeah, the presumption was Do you hear any bizarre stories of aliens running loose and Roswell at the time or anything like that? Probably we've probably been too scared to notice After all that was all pre ET and we didn't know how friendly these folk are So basically All you really know is a little bit of what Whitmore told you About the rancher finding the debris coming into town And then attempting yourself to go out to the site being turned back and receiving the phone call now You sure with Clinton Anderson's office and not oh, but I would assume so he's our center Could have been Dennis Chavez. Oh well could have been Dennis Chavez so That was good enough for us because at that particular time you didn't go wrong wrestling with the FCC if you could help it They gave me enough trouble on other things Sitting out on the hill and monitoring you To make sure you weren't putting out bad information all bad information and our ASCAP was out there trying to find if we were playing some of their stuff and not recording it So we had all of the government that we needed Any information about the rancher in the next couple days? No, I don't Have an impression where he was I do not recall if it's very possible And all I know he didn't come back into the station Did you ever see Brasile after that? I never did That's an unusual these guys all live hell and gone away as you know, we were busy at that time Small small staff There were four guys working from the base and we're working part-time and so forth As I say in retrospect We had any idea what we had at what general interest there would be Why that that it would have been easy and we would have Obviously we would have sat down and said let's see if we can find out this and that put two and two together and get something Did the military ever come by the station to pick up press releases or anything like that? No indication the military came back to make sure there was nothing left behind it might No, no, I don't think so because we were very close to the PIO Even if they had why I don't think it would have made a great mental note after all of these years because it was Not that uncommon a situation through the years and certainly since Resurrection Story stories involved any people that you've talked to any Former colleagues or anyone else that ever voiced an opinion Relate any little tidbits of information to oh that I did that No, because it was usually do you believe this stuff? And it so happened that that that I believe that there's some extent at that time and then Ultimately, I've just felt more and more This was a possible it It was it was nicely Hushed up. Let me put it that way. That's a general way of putting it so you Weren't that concerned that the military came in and Suggested that you not release the story that sort of thing happened on a regular basis Whether it was an aircraft accident or maybe something that See we were trying to cover all of that stuff at the local level because that's what we had That's all we had so To stations which I was associated to a period of time We always had mobile units and we always had we could broadcast and so forth and even in those days If there was a story why we chased it pretty hard But for for this one you didn't really think there was a story Because I didn't think we were gonna be able to do anything I thought that did whatever they were gonna whatever they were going to report because of it Question was in many minds. If whatever they were going to report That's what that's what we would tell them so the people would know there was no place for you to go with the story We had we had a discussion with a guy who had found some stuff, but They did a good job of closing that thing up Marcel was out of here and I Don't know for five days. I imagine There was there were there were some people that were shipped out Maybe they were maybe that had been planned for 90 days, but the coincidence of it made people say boy You get him out of here Was there much talk among the townspeople? Most exciting it happens and they sold the price bull at the 4h Covering all the big news. Yes. I mean secondary secondary story, but next to the bubble Was there any general tone? to the public reaction That they believe that they didn't believe it whatever I wouldn't I wouldn't have any idea because Never did run a poll or anything like that. I would suggest that There were some people who said boy, this must be a big story or they wouldn't have made such an effort and others who said some nut And so I whether it was a weather rule and that's good enough for me if they told me it was a weather rule Which side were you on? I was in the middle between it I'm obviously have gone to the pro there was such a thing but only on the basis of Small small bore logic that has to repeat myself We think with this little dot It's getting Smaller and smaller all the time even though this thing isn't working too well up there now but the the fact is that For us to consider the fact that we are the only people with the intelligence to do that And there's been so much stuff to the contrary since those days All I know is I think that To keep repeating myself, which I don't mean to do Should be cut it I presume But the point is that why should we think in this in this little we see part of the universe that we are the only people Who were ever created with any intelligence? I Know people who think there are other Intelligences in space that are perhaps way ahead of us and this might have been Maybe somebody came down and said hey, we saw some flares down on that little old place Over here on the on the atomic test We saw some flares. We thought we'd send somebody down and take a look see what was going on And so they did and they may have to misfortune to do some bad navigating or something That's a new way of putting it How did you know which branch to go to? Because we talked to the guy when it came to town And he actually told you he gave you directions or told you oh All of these old timers knew exactly where the ranch was Everybody knew we're all in the ranch big ranches No, I was I was busy in the station and that was a very busy seven-day a week job because Covered sports and we covered this and we covered that and I did all the selling of all the advertising, but little there was So it My job was was to stay right there and run the thing But more himself was an absentee owner Looks like that's it then is this deposition over there. I believe so. I think you've done a heck of a job I'll turn this off for you. How's that? I'm just putting the date on this now so that we've got a picture of you with the date So well, I wish I could be more helpful because I'd love to see you guys come up with some Real solutions if you find it we're getting there. Yeah, are you putting the little busy pieces together? Which is why your story is important because you have a couple of little pieces that help fit it into the whole chronology I Can never convince you how important story is to us. Well, I I realize because because I'm Impressed that you are willing to take the pieces Well, we're we're rolling now We've got the tape going so you're mrs. Lyman Strickland Marion Strickland, and we're here in Rosalind, New Mexico Yeah, September 27, it should says right there on the official thing and we'll turn that off and so Let's go You were saying you knew Mac Brazell. Yeah, he was a neighbor And you lived out near his ranch in the summer of 1994. The ranch is joined on the corner. They cornered Okay, in which direction it was southeast of Corona and The cornering was in the same direction southeast So you were farther from Corona than Mac was No, he was further. Oh That ranch belonged to Oh You knew Mac how long before the summer 47 we moved there in 1939 and I Had three small children Excuse me. Can we help you out with anything there? Turn that off. Yes back on. No, that's okay We were talking about Mac Brazell. Well, we moved there in 39 and I had my youngest child was only And I didn't get around to meet neighbors, but my husband did and he undoubtedly knew Mac from Very soon after we went there. We bought the place in 39. Mac came by he would stop Sometimes at the bar and sometimes he came in the house. I just knew who was a very friendly guy yes, he was a Very Self-sufficient country man. He was very dependable So He was not a highly educated person moving ahead to the summer of 1947 leaping right ahead You're of course aware of the events took place in July of 47. Yes Now you have no personal knowledge of what happened. You didn't see anything You didn't go out to the crash site or anything like that. No You know, I think Mac went to See we were on a spur that was off of the main line that went from the foster ranch to Corona and he would have gone by the Rockers and salt embers first just on the way to town But he would come out of his way to come by our place But he came by and told us about it and probably tried to get limin to go down and look at it Sally said he she now Sally is your daughter. Yes, okay we had two signs, but they're both deceased and she thought that She could remember him Liman and the boys to come down and kids. She was one of the boys Literally She said that that was a busy time of the year if it was dry And it was dry more than it was anything else They were feeding Market lambs or Now you said you'd heard you remember the thunderstorm or oh, yes, because we had a This is the house that was built later. We had a little old dinky shack that had a porch that wasn't any wider than that and My husband They're all ranchers go out on the porch to see where it's raining How much and who got some? And he had to stand out there and see where it was raining and there was so much thunder Lightning that I begged him to come in the house and finally there was this terrible plunder clap and he came in and he says boy that hit something You know, it has a different sound. Mm-hmm. It has a hollow sound. So he thought lightning had struck something. Yes and It was two or three days after that It was a week or two did He didn't see the lightning anything or just no that's hilly country. Mm-hmm and the clouds were hanging low They were they were pretty low So then you and Lyman nobody went over with Mac to see the stuff no Mac went to the proctors and maybe the salt mine. I don't know if he went there but They didn't go down there with him I guess everybody was busy and Mac thought it was a weather balloon or some sort of an experiment that he was Glad to do the government a favor or burn them the pieces And that's actually the attitude he had when he gathered it up and took it to town So he went he brought it into Roswell when you say town Roswell And what happened to him in Roswell, they ever talked to you about that very secretly and he didn't talk to me a lot But they were around my table Mac and I don't know whether Bill Brasov was there or not but Mac and my kids And I was busy carrying the coffee pot I really heard more sketches of the conversation Then if I were just sitting there talking like we are here What what was what pieces of the conversation you hear what do you remember about that nasty the officers that Airbase work By nasty what what did he elaborate on that? He did to them. Yes He he was held for I believe it was three days or three nights, of course Ranchers all had livestock in their corrals that had to be fed and that was there by himself And I think he called Bill Bill was in the Albuquerque Come down and take care of his livestock, but they literally threw him in jail and it was Two or three days later Lyman and Floyd Proctor had some business with the Bureau of Land Management, which Anyway, they came down here to the Bureau of Land Management together and And They saw Mac Being escorted by two. I believe two army men. I don't know whether he had handcuffs on or not. I Don't believe I ever heard that I don't believe he did I Believe they just said something about it because we were all the whole neighborhood was Scandalized that the army that the services would treat people like that Did Mac never mentioned what went on when he was held On the base, I didn't hear it Shirley Walter Hawk did I couldn't tell you because like I said, I was carrying the coffee pot Mac was very secretive and I know that he made it plain that He was not supposed to Tell this and not supposed to tell that and I think most of what he was not supposed to tell was that there was any excitement about this material Now that's my recollection that Mac was pretty unhappy. Oh, you bet He was a man who had integrity He was he definitely felt insulted and Misused and disrespect So he was annoyed at the way the military treating worse than knowing He made the effort to come in with the material and they treated him that way He said it basically at your coffee table and I meant actually kitchen tables what I meant. Yeah, was this the only time that he talked about it Did he ever mention it? Maybe some other times or I don't remember him being at my table I was in the house now lots of women are lots of ranch women are Around the corrals a lot He came to the house Off and on when we built this new house. He came and helped line with the plumbing Of course, that was later, but I Don't remember that he ever came during that time of stress And he was he was definitely under some stress and felt like he had been misused and kicked around And this was right after he got back. Yes, right after they let him go Since none of us really knew then What the importance of it was I don't remember just how long it was it might have been two weeks. I Don't think it was two months Did he talk about the material Yes, he did. I remember he said something about That you could crumple it up Now my daughter I have been asked before if anybody had any scraps of it and My daughter told me on She was only 10 years old And she said she wasn't impressed with it, but the bill bristle Brought a scrap of it up there and he was at the corral he was Not in the house and I know I never saw any of it. I never saw it at all And she said that it was very very thin That I had done I so do And she was familiar with fabrics and she said it was like a very thin cotton But very tough and she emphasized the words And I said how big was the scrap? And she said oh six inches by eight or ten and I said what do you reckon he did with it? She says well if they didn't The old I don't believe they were people who You kept a lot of they didn't have their house clutter like this. She says well when If he didn't realize the importance of any problem throw it away That was just conjecture Where's your daughter now? Fort Morgan, Colorado It's Sally Would you think it'd be all right if we talked to her called her long distance and chatted with her. I'm sure it would Do we have a phone number? Yes Do you ever remember what it is? Yes, I do. Do you want to write it down? No, I'll have it recorded One dash 303 dash 867 dash 502 5 That's her home telephone that's Sally Now of course her husband and sons wouldn't know anything about it are they from this area are they from Colorado But she says Bill Bradwell brought a scrap of it by for her to take a look at well or just to show to show and Like I said now she lived at the corral Her daddy had to order her to the house She had her horses and so forth She was out there and the boys were out there and I suppose Bill stopped and that was the whole family's part bill was concerned So basically what you know is Mac Brazel was Held by the people at the base for a number of days. Yes He came to your house and was Irritated by the worse than irritated by the by the treatment of them and you heard some of his discussion about What went on at the base and then liven saw Mac In the company of a number of if I could say something that's off of the record Back on the record. Could I ask you about the thunderstorm again? The thunderstorm did anyone else comment did you hear anyone else comment about the thunderstorm? I asked Juanita about it one time and she said no, she didn't remember it because She had little children her children by 1947 mine were seven eight and ten years old and uh Hers were babies. I think that's what she said that she didn't remember that I don't know if anybody else did Anyone else in the family that commented about the law About the law Thunder thunderclap Sally could remember. I don't know My son's of sander Did Mac say anything while he wrote that he was threatened? I think he was threatened Something because He was threatened if he opened his mouth he might Get thrown in the backside of the jail Now he gave that impression definitely he must not tell anything He he said that he wasn't supposed to tell anything. Yes So he was angry, but yet he Also took it serious. Yes that he couldn't say anything about it. Yes. Was that unlike him that he would Yes, it was unlike he buckled down against something that He was a very upfront person He would be likely to say what he thought And if it fitted you didn't like it. Well So what so what would it take to get him to keep his mouth shut about something? A serious threat More than just the physical threats I think so But I don't know of any threat that was given right like I said, I was carrying the coffee bar Could they have done anything else? to Try to shut him up like why bribe him You couldn't bribe Mac. I think he Double up his fists back your way I really do I don't think he was that kind of as anybody else made any such remarks about Mac Why I was just going to ask um as far as his Financial situation prior to the incident I don't know much about his finances His wife lived in amigurta and had a home there and I've been there and it was a nice house Enough Well, it was just a nice house in a nice part of town. It wasn't Extraordinary in any which way But it was a nice home and she had a pretty yard with flowers and uh I don't know whether she didn't want to live on the ranch or what But the foster ranch was a big ranch and uh Probably the pay was something important to Mac Any idea what a man would be paid to run a kind of ranch in those days I know what we had to pay hired men when we hired them just by the day But uh, I don't have any idea what a ranch manager would have done What did a hand get per day back then? Uh, a common hand would get about $60 a month and not $5 a day for Somebody that knew what he was doing like When they'll work or fence work, but I don't know what It wasn't anything you talked about around the labor Was there anything different about him after this? I'd have been a little More reticent because he felt like he was disgraced And he really wanted to square himself with his neighbors. I think that's why he talked a little Because he was afraid that the neighbors might think he had done something of a crooked nature He might have been a little more anxious to I don't know when we built this house. I said this house that's in the painting Lyman Didn't know anything about plumbing. He cut two pieces of A pipe and they were both too short And Mike come up and help you And they put in they put in the plumbing together Now I don't know if Mike would've done that before that or not This was in the early fates Who painted the picture one of my sons Did he paint all these pictures he painted everything in oil And did all the wood carvings Anything that's in china. I did it I've impressed you did this one by the fire Yes, that's a story that's a story that's really true That happened when my husband was about Two or three years old You want to turn it off? No, that's okay My son painted it from his father's story about it. Uh at that time they had Uh no fences or very few and uh lots of cowboys And they ran this was like the chism out there but They didn't work your chism. They worked for him and uh They they run cattle from the pegas plum to the mountains and uh Anyway, these cowboys went out in the morning. I don't know him anymore. Half a dozen and This one didn't come back So they knew something had happened to him and uh What had happened was that his horse stepped in a hole and fell with him and broke the man's leg but not the horse's leg and uh The wolves could smell the blood The skin was broken The boot could smell the blood And the wolves could smell the blood and if national geographic and they did I read it If they want to tell you that wolves won't attack Maybe they won't if there's just one But where there's a whole ring of wolves A bunch and they smelled blood They would and anyway He could he had uh little chips of wood That he got on fire and threw at him all night long And they found him the other cowboys found him the next morning and uh My mother's law, Lyman's mother, uh walked up to it and says they're supposed to have been a tree right there That's where the chips come from My son had never painted a tree He never painted a tree until I insisted did he think these were around the house And uh So he didn't put any tree in it And her sister And Jenny walked up to it and said somebody else in the room says well, did he get over it? She says well, he sure was a good old dancer So I guess he got over it Those are beautiful pictures. Yeah. Thank you. I treasure everything here. My son was selling At the time that he died And he had sold several portraits and uh The people who had commissioned portraits came and gone But uh, I kept everything else. I could have sold us. I just plastered the walls The green you know what and what is it that you painted? I paint China And what What in here did you do? Well, this cabinet is full of it That cabinet is full of it and the Everything except one or two antiques in these shelves Um, that's obvious where you learned it from. Yeah, how about these cuts with birds? I painted only It's incredible. That's marvelous. Now. I didn't paint the virgin that's in the window I did about half of the birds or more than half. Maybe the floor is under China. Oh, yes, I did all those That's really realistic I've enjoyed doing it. My son was painting at the time that I Found the lady who gave lessons and that was her husband who came with the animals and uh I thought well, I've always enjoyed china and I'll do this so I don't Interfere with his work He had talent that I'd never have So I wouldn't say you've got a lot of talent, but it's obvious that he had lots of talent too. He had a lot of talent But it was pretty much a sideline for him He was 40 years old when he died and uh he had Really just gotten into the artistic Efforts he drew from the time he was 45 years old the things that you could Of that well, I'm his mother things that you might say This is awfully good he drew one that I hung on the wall until it turned yellow and it was a A cowboy standing by a windmill And the windmill was much taller than the buck the cowboy was much taller than the windmill So, you know who was the most important? But both were very good And he was forward when you drew that but uh, I have painting to his all of I have a grand A grandson two grandsons this daughter One of them is an art teacher Well, if you don't mind I'd like to video the paintings. All right, I'd like to I don't know I don't know if it would come out how good it'll be, but I'd certainly like to give it a shot And you say this is his house or your house Still there after we moved in here, and I knew what was going on. He had five little strokes but he had glaucoma and uh Son and I were suspicious that he had son This is a painting in his tune Is it done from a photograph? Worked in a lot of mediums Oh, yes So he had glaucoma on the street authority for several years and uh, his eyesight was such that this old Excitable woman wouldn't ride with me Except on a ranch where it didn't matter and but we were coming back from Roswell with a load of feed and I was driving We had a three-quarter ton picked up and usually loaded it with two or three ton This is one across a little bit This was in maybe in the fifties I couldn't tell you exactly It didn't have anything to do with mine Have you been I guess you've been to corona Yes and have you crossed the gaio and then gone Up by what was the Reynolds Ranch then there's a long straight road right along the to the top of the I'd call it a mason It it stretches for at least two or three miles just as straight as a ribbon You come up from a a deep draw and go up on this long straight road Well, go back around corona This is going to and they cut off It's 59 miles out here and Then it cuts off to go up corona. It wasn't paved then and anyway Go back to 1942 about 1942 there were lots of of Army planes going over Because that's right on a direct line between here and Albuquerque there was one That had the bomb site if you remember they had a bomb site that They protected with men's lives And the planes were fixed so that they blow up if they didn't land just properly Well anyway This plane circled every this was night. We had gone to bed and it was about 10 o'clock And nearly everybody had 10 roughs This was 1942 You could see the 10 rough shining in whatever light there was and uh This plane you could tell it was in trouble because of the way the moose And they sound they circled every ranch house In that area ours included and by the time you think of what to do to go down To the field with your pickup and shine the lights on the furrows The way they ran or something They were gone and gone on to some other place Anyway, they spotted this this long road And they tried to land and it blew up They cordoned that off for a week Gathering up Anyway, this was 1950 I was driving real slow And up out of the guy, oh, which is very sandy You don't cross the guy over just anywhere uh It's so sandy that you could bog down in the sand Came this red light Large red pulsating light Came up out of the guy. Oh came directly at us and all I could think of We were up on this long road All I could think of was that it was a plane with that was in trouble when trying to land and uh I know that linemen agreed. I must we must have talked something that the barge was awfully deep And we went off on that side It's a wonder if the thing didn't turn over with the load we had But anyway, he got out and run down the hill and I had a heck of a time getting my Door open But I did get out and I saw it not through the windshield And this light came right straight over us and stood there Just to steal And all at one time it took off and went on the bed in another direction Now it didn't occur to me at the time Until the next day There was not a sound No sound The roadside pickup was definitely I was outside the pickup I was not seeing it through glass There was not any sound And I said to linemen I'm going to call we had a telephone bill in too And must have had part of this house built And I said I'm going to call white sands and tell them they lost one of their rockets He says you just shut up and don't say one word. They don't make the food out of them And they already had tertiary people who didn't see things And uh I was just convinced it was some earthly fame that had gotten loose But I would like to ask you all Is there any Theory of anybody Has had a theory that this is a light Thing I mean like we Send the search light the search light doesn't make any sense You throw a baseball through the air and it makes a sound And I can't help but think that if it appeared to me Of that this thing was uh Not over a hundred feet above Maybe not that much I couldn't really tell It was pitch dark It was something I've never seen before And uh Has anybody ever The weather like Clear Yeah, I remember there was no muddy roads. No nothing like that Oh, I've heard hundreds and hundreds of reports like that And you heard that they don't make a sound Mm-hmm Has anybody said that it could be a Something that's beamed from somewhere else Your guess is as good as anybody else speculation theories about Holographic Projections that almost appears to be three-dimensional From a projector That it's Not even a solid object. It's just a projection. Just a ball of light Well, this was exciting Red round thing what shade of red? I'd say it was a little bit of Yellow red just a little Lots of red More orange red. Yes If I'm going to my palette, I'd pick up yellow red But it would be an orange red Well, we even have lots of reports of huge vehicles Covering over people's heads with no sound at all And they can tell what it's a vehicle Yes daytime And no sound Well, how do you explain that because Like I said, you throw a ball through the air and you've got a sound The theory there is too that That somehow the object Is able to with some type of A for a field that would surround the object actually draw the surrounding air molecule With it that would serve to cushion it and eliminate the friction the air friction Something I know it's thinking Greek Really, we don't know There's no friction When you know what a sonic boom is Because that's where the air is separated by the supersonic jet as it comes together it collapse So whatever this It doesn't cause that it doesn't lack to come together It doesn't seem to have to come together. It seems to be no break in the air So that's where the theory that it's actually drawing air with it See too when you have an object that moves that fast That the friction would cause it to start to glow That's where like a meteorite Breaks up or even a satellite In re-entry with burn up as it comes into the atmosphere We don't get that The biggest thing wasn't the meteorite because it stood there Maybe they were Seeing how smart we were to see if they wanted to ask us a few questions. I don't know You decided that didn't how long did it sit there, you know You're under such a stress at the time. It's hard to say I would say a few seconds Maybe certainly not more than three or five minutes But you are moving in the truck at the time. No, I can stop the truck you had stopped. Yes Was it up ahead of the truck as it appeared to hover or was it overhead right overhead right overhead? If I had been in the truck, I couldn't have seen it But I had uh, you know, it's hard to open a pickup Looked out to the windshield I didn't look out through the windshield I did when I first saw it right my husband had run off down the draw and he kept Powering at me to come on out his side and I really I think I was afraid that the whole pickup would turn over because That was a deep barge I've heard that they've got that road paved now. I don't know what kind of barge is he got But that one was deep and uh Anyway, I remember struggling out on the driver's side and uh Stood there because By that time by the time I got out I could see that it was not an airplane that was Trying to land and come down the road But that's what I thought it was Could this have been in 1949? It could have been I couldn't swear to the date I hold an awful lot of feet by myself um His eyes got so bad that Well, when did his eyes get bad? I guess he had some eye problems from the time I first knew him But uh, the thing we're not treated until uh In the late 40s He he was blind for four or five years And he died quite a few years ago, right? Six years ago Well six years ago Seven years ago in january He and Clanny Southamir saw some things. I don't know if they were total one either or not And I know I saw one that looked like a campsite about 11 o'clock at night one night and I went This was a crooked road that went from Southamir to Air Force And We had had a lot of sheep Stephen I've got a snapshot over there of where treats put out uh trip You know a sign that said there would be uh uh They would pay uh Pay for information on the sheep We weren't supposed to Yes, a reward and uh I went right home and called Clanny and of course got him out of bed told him that This campsite was Up above there had been an old road there And Clanny says why that road washed out to where nobody could get in there They went up there the next morning and come around from the top side And they said they found a dead Uh, well, I believe it was a cache A cache Was there evidence for a cache player? You know, I don't remember When I do remember what looked to me as I passed it like uh Lights a ladder lights that would show through a tent Through some of the openings in the tent Anybody moving around? I didn't see anybody see I was driving and I didn't want to set there if that was sheep stealers White form And I didn't know that the road was going down It was in Clanny's pasture Then in our pasture there was um Uh a bluff On the We call it the benedict To me it would be a hundred feet down. Maybe it's not more than 50 But they had it fenced off so the livestock wouldn't come up there and raise and fall all And it was very rough. You couldn't get up there to pick up or even a jeep because Pieces would fall out and fall into the Canyon below And that was above our house And as we turned the corner to come in Into a ball game One night and come in after the ball game and Here was a light going down like from one fence fence post to the other Just clear I don't drink I didn't say it Uh this ball game, uh, you remember anything about the weather? No, I wouldn't have gone if the weather had been very threatening Not that I We lived in a remote enough area And had livestock that Oh, I guess I'm An old stick in the mode I just wouldn't have gone I'm not that crazy about sports My kids were The boys were playing one of them The other one to private school We had an interesting time You know, I think so too And we saw the first atomic bomb Oh, yeah Yeah Saw the flash Yes And this is true Uh My husband was one of those that Thought if you didn't want to get up at three o'clock in the morning, you were probably a little lazy He shook me in around and he says come here and look and we just this was an old house and just had one One of the window about the size of that out on the west side And uh He wanted me to see this explosion and I didn't see it did not see any mushroom We were in a direct line from Alamogordo behind the mountains But and I and it was very quiet And it went right straight up If there was a mushroom, I didn't see it I got up and looked and went right back to bed What you think it was We talked about it a minute or two and thought I think he suggested it might be an ammunition zone Because nobody Knew what was going on over there then It hadn't been announced and That's what we decided it was and I thought well It's an ammunition dump. So what do you got me up here for? So I went back to bed and I think I think he went in make coffee Had you heard any rumors about what was going on? If if so, I don't remember it I we had We had an awful lot of drought And we also had Plains that We know they came out of the Alamogordo out of the base there that scattered something that That dispersed the clouds and Um, I out here. I've got a government bullet And an old I've got it out there in the box I don't know where it is They take a while to go find it Anyway, uh, the ranchers all really they thought that the That these Young boys were doing this. They were buzzing windmills too at times And they thought they were doing some of it just on their own just to be funny and uh They made a protest and there was I can't remember that man's name for sure Anyway, the general And he came in from El Paso And he told them that it was not His boys that were doing that it was a group that was assigned to experiment with the weather and he gave us the address And what to ask for and we got these bulletins this one that I'm talking about And anybody that asked for one after that didn't get it They shut it off Tells about the experiments the experiments were going all up and down the Rockies even into montan And there was a big experiment station right there at the mouth of the Platte River where they had when they had that big flood on the Platte 19 But this one was spotted too I mean It was named We got the first government bulletins from Montoya Anderson was The senator Anderson was down in the Rockies and we were just a bunch of hicks But they could see Some of these planes coming in they were branded Cavs or marking lands or something one time in a bunch of men around on the gaio and this wasn't at our range All the neighbors got together to do those things and they could see something being dunked out or spewed out of these planes and the planes going right You might say into the clouds or they appeared to go into The clouds would just vanish. They'd just go buy more feed You saw this happening? I didn't see that my husband was there but I saw I saw the planes come in one time. We were stuck in that same draw that had that bluff only that I was telling you about Anyway, the water had come down those magazines are to be given away and you can have any you want We were stuck and there was the biggest old black cloud up above and We needed rain and needed it bad And we were just working like crazy to get back. It was my husband and his old son and I to get that pickup out of the draw because it wasn't washed it away and uh The planes come in and finally somebody No, but from there and those clouds just absolutely This government thing They said in so many words that they were trying to send the moisture into the Into the areas that needed it for dry land farming I think they nearly got sued they washed away the Kansas City stockyards once kind of Which serves them right I think that's all we really need Great done some wonderful work for us Well, I hope it's been worth something. I think the american people ought to know What's going on? I can realize One reason that this was kept secretive is You remember arson well, you're too young. Well, we we read about it in newspapers. I do Well, anyway, he had written a play right and I think it was in new york city That there was a downright right world world people from the other worlds were coming and The people in new york city just panicked As they're well known to do people in new york city Anyway, that's the only reason I can see why they can't be honest Of course now they've had so much practice Yeah, that being dishonest Yes, and they second nature. They have been Used to the idea of their superiority Lording it over the rest of us We're just the taxpayer. We're just children that have to be taken care of Yeah, we're just the taxpayer that they can gouge for more money. So what do you believe crashed out? By the foster energy What do I think? Well for several years, I really thought that it might be something The the russians were experimenting with but I don't think so anymore I think That perhaps we have the greatest technological Advances of anybody in the world and um They haven't found any living people on any other Uh, planets that they they got us come from somewhere So you believe it was from somewhere else Yes, unless we find a A group of people in this world that are smarter than we know about in this world anymore Well, I think that'll lure them I thank you very much for your time. We will I'll make a copy of the tape. I won't promise the quality will be very good I'd like to buy two I'll make two copies and send them to you. Don't worry about yeah, it's there. It's very simple to do and it doesn't cost anything You have more sort of our our payment for you helping us out. Well, thank you. I appreciate it very much. Okay And your name is you can speak up it won't hurt And we're here in delhart, texas on october 1st And you were a niece of barnie barnett of his wife And you did they now do I understand that that they kind of raised you for a while or they were riders real close to them They maybe sent me all about uh For two three here And they helped spoil my end They did not have any children of their own So barnie was a Civil engineer For the soil conservation service working in an office in Sikora, Mexico. His office was in Sikoro Yes, okay And he's employed by the u.s. government, you know You remember the story that barnie told When I remember that he saw One time I went to visit and I don't know if it was before my husband. I married or after I don't recall the date But he said that he saw you at home Uh fall He was out working in the field and I understood that he was down in the st. augustine plane and he went over to vermouth and uh fell and uh, he uh Got nearly to the side and there was a group of um people on a Geological or archeological And uh, they were over there. I I I don't remember how many people he said but they got nearly up to this u.f. Open it was close enough to See some creatures or he said it didn't look like human beings down there And uh along came a government Or some trucks No with government you mean I guess it was government You know as I say it's been a long time ago If someone came along and I understood it I don't know whether it was army or what I think he was termed a government Trucks and they told them to Go on back and forget they ever saw anything now. That's all I recall He wasn't specific on whether it was army or He just said government Did he have any clues to where the archaeologists came from? He didn't say if he did I don't remember He just said a bunch of Did he'd ever describe the creatures to you? I don't recall He said did he give you a number do you remember if there were And they were all dead You know, they weren't moving So he never said that one might have been alive or might have been Oh, I don't think he got that close to them. You know, I mean he didn't get Right Seems like there was a fence They blocked it off Or if they may have had him moved back to the fence, but you don't know Exactly where this was other than You think it was up in the I feel that it was up in the dattle or Magdalena He termed as the high country the high country And he didn't give me any clue as to what side of the Plains it would have been on or what it was closer to dattle or Magdalena If he did I don't Did he ever describe the object itself to you say anything about that, you know, I don't you know what Since you've heard about all these players and things You don't realize I don't recall it what he said Or what has been put into my mind or you know, but I Not that anybody's put anything in my mind Well, but you know what you've read and you've read the books you saw the unsolved mysteries program And things that you've talked about and there's been talk UFOs ever since But your your memories then are just pretty vague about what he'd said Except that I do know that he said And that there were creatures creatures in it And you saw people or whatever So and I believe he did say describe it as a round thing, but you know, let's say I don't know what Um Do you remember what do you recall now in the subsequent years what his feelings about UFOs were? No, I don't even recall us talking about What is your what's your feelings about it? What do you think? Well, since he saw one I know that it's true So you believe based on what Barney told you that Flying saucers are real and they're piloted by beings from other planets. Is that a fair assessment? I don't know who they're Uh, I just know that they're real Are this yes, but you trust anything Barney told you on that floor Was he ever known to play practical jokes or spin tall tales or anything like that? Oh, I don't know that he'd play practical jokes, but not spin tall tales So he was right, but this he was serious This was serious Did it ever come up more than one time that you remember? So And you have really no clue. I'm sorry about recall is so far. That's fine That's exactly what we want is exactly what you remember not what Others may have said or things that people might have said but what you you recall yourself Um So you really have no clue as to when he mentioned this to you Other than it may have been in the 50s It was in the Middle or latter 40s or early 50s So it might have been 49 or 48 so it might have been right after close to the time it happened Do you remember the context? I'm sure you don't remember the context of the conversation how it came up at all But it made enough impression upon you that you remembered at least a few of the details Anything else that you can think of that So you have I've tried, you know to rack my brain To you know, it seems ridiculous that we didn't discuss it later and we may have but I don't recall and we're all busy and you know You see them maybe a day or two at a time What given what you know what? Barney Barnett said to you What you're feeling of the government claims that there's no such thing no such thing no validity Oh, I just don't have too much opinion except you know the government You know the government Do you think the government's hiding information about UFOs from us? It must be it's obvious if if they're the ones who came along and said be quiet about it But Barney did mention the archaeologist. Did he mention anybody else who might have been there? You don't have any clues to how many people weren't at all nobody else there that Okay, well, uh, this was sure short That's why you don't know much that's why I put it on the end of the day But you have no doubt that Barney was telling you the truth about this Did Barney ever have trouble with the government afterwards maybe with the internal revenue service or anything like that Nothing like that that you can remember No harassment from from the government No harassment of any kind that I Then he retired from the soil conservation commission. Yes, I think in about 1956 because of poor health And then he did he stay in sikoro stay in sikoro until And then in 1969 So he was retired and Ruth What she moved uh She stayed in sikoro a year or two after he died And then she passed away Did she ever mention this at all and Never never brought it up You know, you just went on with what the president Wasn't really that major of an event in anybody's life I guess it wasn't even though you can't imagine it And now I can't imagine Played down so I've even inquired of my friends back then, you know, that we might have come home and told somebody that They don't remember me telling them for they might have poor memories inside All right, well, I think I've probably They say taken up enough of your time. So I'm gonna I'll turn off the camera here It worked out real well, didn't it? I don't know it wasn't horrible or anything It was scary