 Welcome to rational alchemy today is going to be rather interesting because it's actually going to be rational therapy And boy do I need therapy. I am joined here at Brett Bannerman's house Brett is is one of America's leading sound engineers and also a musician on the side. He told me So that's kind of interesting. So we're in a little bit of a different location. I'm joined today by faith faith Welcome. Thank you, Nigel. I'm so happy to be here. Why don't you tell us just a little bit about what you do and how you do it? Yeah I'm a licensed professional counselor and board certified music therapist with a private practice here in Longmont called sound Well music therapy and I work with teens young adults adults who are dealing with mental health issues that They're interested in finding other ways to work through besides just traditional talk therapy It's kind of interesting because I did a little bit of research obviously as I always do and I was amazed at the number of topics that music therapy can actually help and I'll give a I'll let you go in depth on these but Reduce anxiety and pain I'd never thought of music therapy to help with pain that that's a really interesting one improve mental health That one I did I did know about But I was actually surprised that these are actually Scientifically proven to work. So this is not one of your woo woo things. This is this is real And there are other benefits as well like memory it can actually help memory Which means I need a lot of music therapy Why don't we look into a few of those Subtopics and talk a little bit about the way we'd like to start well, I Think maybe a good place to start would be on how music therapy can assist with anxiety since that seems to be a common thing that So many of us are experiencing in part of the way that music therapy and I guess you could say music in general can help with anxiety is the Multidimensional impacts that music has on us neurologically physiologically music can affect our breathing can promote deeper breathing it can help our thoughts to settle it can help us to Identify and express the emotions that we may be feeling that are underlying the anxiety So for it to give a more concrete example in my in my office, I sometimes have people who are Living a lot in their heads as one tends to do when experiencing anxiety and So I will offer them an opportunity to play one of the instruments that I have In my office it might be the ocean drum or it might be a reverie harp, which is this Lap harp that is tuned in such a way that anyone can play it Even me even you oh, I find that very hard to believe and you can feel the vibrations of the instrument in your body And as people are playing these instruments They start to become more settled and grounded into their bodies when which then helps them to Start to talk about what's really going on for them rather than being lost in a Wave of ruminating thoughts. It's funny. You should mention it in that particular way because I know when I'm feeling a bit down If I put on say Pink Floyd's echoes from Pompeii Even though what the song is expressing it does the music calms down I I do remember seeing a couple of programs are about music and how it affects the brain And I found that absolutely fascinating that just sitting there and listening to music actually changes your Psychologically on how you're thinking. Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. Yeah, and because of the ways that Music can impact the brain whether that's listening to recorded music or actively engaging in music making that's what makes music therapy so Potent and relevant in a wide variety of health care settings for example, there are music therapists who are working in NICU settings working with premature babies and parents and helping to Helping support these families with children babies who are in critical condition Helping to reduce heart rate helping to increase respiration helping to Develop bonding which is so important. Yes in those early stages and can be difficult to do when You can't be actively holding your child. There are music therapists who work in special education settings There are music therapists who specialize in working with people on the autism spectrum There are music therapists who work in rehab settings So using music as a way to help people recover Speech and movement after experiencing a stroke. Some people may remember Arizona representative Gabby Giffords was shot and music therapy was a huge part of her Rehabilitation process. I had not heard that. Yeah. Yeah, and then there are music therapists who work specifically in memory care Working with older adults who are experiencing Neurological neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's and then there are music therapists who work in hospice That is fascinating What led you into this type of work? Yeah, well my undergraduate degree is in vocal performance and vocal pedagogy and By my senior year as I was preparing for my recital. I realized that I'm not I Don't have the demeanor in the temperament to be a full-time performer because it's hard work and requires Requires discipline that I don't necessarily have What was fascinating to me about having to learn the music was just the psychological and emotional process that you go through to learn a piece of music to connect with a piece of music to then get on stage and perform a piece of music where You have nothing to hide behind because correct your voice is you and then to be able to communicate your intention to the audience and have them respond and I realized I Would like to support other people in being able to do that to be able to really embody their voices and to feel confident in speaking their truth, so My voice teacher at the time gave me a brochure for the music therapy program at Naropa University in Boulder it was part of the Transpersonal Counseling Psychology program and After spending a year in South Korea being an expat I decided to apply to go back to school and Just just just just briefly. Yeah, Korea. What were you doing in Korea for goodness sake? And I'm assuming South Korea rather than north. Yes Yes, yeah, I was teaching English as a foreign language to young children I got a job there and it was an amazing experience through that I was able to sing with a Korean choir where we all wonder performed a televised performance of Beethoven's night symphony we competed in Contests and it was lovely, but at a certain point I developed a respiratory illness that affected the upper range of my voice Oh dear, which then sent me into an existential tailspinx. Yes I had been up to that point. I had been so identified with my voice like who am I if I can't sing and I took that as a as a sign from Whatever. Yeah, exactly. Whatever that it was time for me to find a different direction And that's when I remembered that I still had this brochure for the music therapy program at Naropa Made my little audition videotape that included footage of me playing the piano and singing to a group of Korean kindergarteners and Doing some improv with my voice and I do you see we have that tape? I would love to see that. I really know because I sent it in. I only had one copy. Yeah. Yeah, and so So that's what brought me to Colorado and When I came to Colorado, I just thought that music therapy was music psychotherapy You're doing psychotherapy and using music But then I learned that is not the case. It is As broad of a profession as I just described right right Now we were talking before we started recording the show and we were talking a little bit and a little bit of research that I did Suggested that anyone that thinks they may need this should go and see their practitioner their general practitioner first And you then said no Nigel. That's not true. Could you explain that? Yeah, well, it would I would say that it depends on who you are What kind of support you're looking for from music therapy? if someone is looking for Counseling support mental health support people can reach out to me directly because I'm An lpc and lpc licensed professional counselor. Okay. I'm in network with All of the major insurance companies and medicaid Apparently I'm also in network with medicare, but I haven't worked all that out yet exactly But in other cases For other conditions It may be more appropriate to talk to your doctor about it because you might need to get a An authorization To receive music therapy So sometimes they they do need a referral sometimes you do need a referral Yeah, and but there's also the colorado association for music therapy where There's a whole list of music therapists practicing all over the state and you can also reach out to them many of them Work with the medicaid waivers and so they They can be contacted to work with families who have Children who are terminally ill and receiving palliative and hospice care or music therapy services to Work with people who have a medicaid waiver who have developmental disabilities Which is also another large area that music therapists work in and a guess How many music therapists do you think I'll say just in colorado? Oh, I think the latest number is Maybe 200. Wow. There aren't many of us at this point Colorado State University is the only music therapy program in the state I'm currently a phd student in their music therapy program there most excellent. Yeah. Yeah, it's been Mind-blowing. I bet and the training the program currently between their undergrad and their Their master's program I believe there's about 40 students Oh, okay. Okay. So it's so gradually the numbers are are getting much much larger I'm sure most of most of you guys are sort of around the Denver area Colorado Springs probably peblo Yeah, colons. Yeah, definitely more located in the front range. Yes But there are some music therapists out on the western slope. Oh, okay In mantros area And higher up in the in the mountains, there's a there's a music therapist who Has a non-profit that works specifically with veterans. Oh nice and His his programs based in veil Okay, I believe and they do like retreats and workshops like songwriting type Workshops, this is fascinating. This is fascinating My daughter nearly got into actually art therapy. Oh nice. Do you ever work with an art therapist? I have I have in the past Currently I haven't but Prior to the pandemic I had a contract with the st. Rain Valley school district where I was the music teacher for one of the special ed programs and they also had an art therapist Who was the art teacher and sometimes we would collaborate? When I graduated in 2007 I did some contract work with adams camp, which is a program that every summer they have Overnight camping experiences for kids with with developmental disabilities and provides provides them with a camp like experience while also providing therapy and Providing their family parents siblings with a chance to experience being in nature And so on those teams it would be often be Music therapist an art therapist A speech therapist an occupational therapist a physical therapist and so sometimes we would collaborate in those ways and when I was doing my completing part of my internship with Hospice at that time it was hospice of metro denver I would work with an art therapist to Particularly in children's bereavement. I don't think people in america realize how much help is actually out there It's not something you really hear about And from what you know just the brief words that you've spoken There's a lot of help out there Providing you can find out where to go Yeah, and I would also say that it's provided you have the resources to pay for it. Yes, because While I can bill insurance as an in-network provider, that's because I'm licensed But music therapy isn't a licensed profession in colorado or in Most of the states in some states licensure has passed And so that can that can limit people's access some music therapists will create or will create super bills And have their clients pay them directly and then they can communicate with their insurance company for out-of-network benefits Which poses challenges because The insurance company is not necessarily going to pay that person back And services can be expensive can be expensive. Absolutely. Absolutely So Let us change just a little bit. Okay. I'm going to become your patient. Okay. Okay And what we're going to do is We're going to pretend that we have never met Okay, okay, and I want you to treat me exactly as you would treat A new patient coming to you saying can you help me? Okay. Okay Suffering a bit from depression lost a dear friend Okay That bit you know. Yes. So I'm brand new You've never seen me before what happens next What happens next is I would ask you How are you feeling? What brings you to therapy today? What would you like to work on? Okay Let me have a think about that. The reason I'm here is a very dear friend. I'd And uh, I'm missing him enormously He was a very important person in my life And uh, I'm feeling a bit depressed about it all I really am and uh I'm not quite sure how to get out of this depression to be honest with you now. I do love music Always have done always will do If I die listening to pink floyd, trust me. I'm happy um What what else do you need to know? Well, then I would ask you Are there certain songs that remind you of him? That you would associate with him The funny thing is we never actually ever talked about music. I don't know what he liked to listen to We used to go out and we used to have lunches together and we talked about everything I mean we solved all of the world's problems over lunch. It was not difficult But uh, thank you for your service But uh, no music is one thing. I don't know what he'd like to listen to um Probably some dreadful country and western actually but we won't go into that Okay, so Part of the reason why I would ask if there are certain songs that you associate with him Would be to help facilitate The sharing of memories because oftentimes when we have first experienced a loss It's important to be able to share those stories and to be able to Keep that connection That we that we feel to that person. Okay But then another thing if a song wasn't coming to you Something else that I might suggest would be Improvising around that feeling And so Making some music together. I wouldn't expect you to necessarily play all by yourself Although sometimes clients do they want to just be witnessed Making music and then other times there are clients who Want that Shared support. Okay. Okay. I do know that if you hand me a musical instrument We're gonna lose all our viewership because I cannot play a single instrument I have tried and I have tried and I have tried it's just not how I'm wired I can sing Okay, but I can't play a musical instrument I would question whether or not you could play a musical instrument. I would ask you What does playing a musical instrument mean to mean to you like When you think of playing an instrument does that mean You have to be performing with a certain level of proficiency Or does it mean like you physically can't move your fingers to Play the keys on a keyboard. I do have a synthesizer at home and I do sit up there and see the crazy noises I can get out of this damn thing And it was it was a Roland 1974 ish It's one of the very very earliest synthesizers that we the general public could buy And I have a lot of fun doing that But putting together a tune no hope in heck And I think that's the beautiful thing about improvising is that It doesn't and I should say improvising specifically within music a music therapy context Is that it's much more about the process rather than the finished product. Okay, and so Sometimes I find when I improvise with people that it One I think it gives people that permission to Connect with their creative side, which we don't give ourselves enough permission to connect with in our society and It was kind of going back to what I said earlier about music and anxiety It helps people to just become more embodied in the moment where then feelings and thoughts Can come up that can then be shared processed sometimes People will start to cry because the music for whatever Reason on whatever level whatever is going on in the person's mind and heart Has Yeah, it's open the door to allow these feelings to be expressed that need to be expressed Do you want to try it with me? Are you open to it? I'm I'm open to anything. Okay. I'm 72 years old I've got nothing to lose And everything to gain and everything to gain Let's do that. Sounds good. We will be back in just a second That was wonderful. Um, I I love your use of the black keys That that was really clever and that was a beautiful set of chords They're all sort of intermingled And they're end if my musical knowledge Well, I appreciate what you said about the black keys because I find that When I'm improvising with clients that sometimes Just having us play on the black keys Makes it feel a bit more accessible Because otherwise if it's you have the entire Palate of the keyboard available it can feel really overwhelming. Right so I Would like to I'm just going to play a very simple kind of um Container musical container. Okay. It's going to just be simple back and forth Let's see. I'm going to play with this. That was almost pink panther. Yeah, didn't And so I'm just going to play this pattern. Okay, and then when you feel ready Come in and play whatever black keys you want because there's no right or wrong note Oh, okay with this can I just uh Yeah, exactly And as you're playing You know, you were talking about feeling feeling depressed with the loss of your friend. Yeah As you're playing see if you can connect to that feeling. Okay You see what when we had that little break one of the things that we discovered Which I didn't know was that kirk loved the blues and amazingly he loved cream One of the shortest lived bands in the history of rock And one of the most remembered named bands in the history of rock just because of what they were able to produce between the three of them and uh, you know, it was Eric Clapton ginger baker jack bruce at the top of their game Remarkable music they came out with but anyways, okay And so I wonder how that knowledge is going to influence What you feel the next time you hear their music actually when I get home I'll tell you right now I'm going to listen to spoonful because I know that if kirk really liked cream that would be one of his favorites And maybe even our train time as well because kirk was so into seam engines Nice. So neat. Okay So you just want me to cut in. Yeah Again, there's no right or wrong. I'm gonna I'm gonna watch your fingers for a little bit. See what I see So I've never played a keyboard I had to throw in a white key. I can't be a black key only man Don't limit me I see what you're saying Because I was able to keep an eye on what you were doing and sort of try and improv in Underneath it. Exactly because I being on the high end of the keyboard It was actually over you but And that's the point and that's the point. Ah I'm the music that I'm so you're like background Your background support and then I'm trying to fill in the little bits and pieces that you get so terribly wrong. I've got it No Do you want to try something else? Yeah, I'm really getting a good feel for this and then I think it'd be time to say goodbye. Okay. Okay. So let's let's have another little do it do a different Yeah, can you do a different uh keyset? Still with black keys or No, listen to mingle a little bit. Okay. Okay. So because I agree with what you said the black keys sound so much warmer Rather than the the the coldness of See that's that's cold, but That's just a little bit warmer. Just gives you that little bit extra. Okay. Yeah So and that's the first time I've ever played on a keyboard like that Oh Second time seconds I'm not Perfect if we're gonna do uh We're gonna incorporate some black notes Then we'll be Having to define a key signature so that okay, we can make sure that the black notes Okay, now you do realize that that whizzed over my head about as quickly as a software release So that's why i'm going to make it easy. Okay for us. Oh easy is good Make this the only black note that you play whether it's here here Here. Oh, so I can do that one that one and that one. Yep, and then white keys And then white keys thrown in at the same time. Yeah Okay And see this is a great example of how music can be helpful for Those of us who are getting older and needing to like Getting older work on our memories getting old darling. Some of us are already there. I'm trying to be diplomatic Right because you're young at heart clearly. Well, yeah, there is that You mean mentally in state? No, anyway Let's see what you're doing Let's see. What am I doing? No, that's too low You have to break the rules occasionally I'm going to turn into that character from sesame street the the composer who Well, what we've just proved to everyone that's watching this video is is i'm not keith amazon or rick waitman Oh, well, but what was that like for you? I mean it was interesting saying that You don't play I wish I had had you as a music teacher when I was 13 or 14 when I first tried to learn the piano because The person that tried to teach me was just well, these are the chords you need to know and I'm Yeah It was not fun. It really was not fun, but this I'm really getting sort of the feel of it. Which of course is what you want out of your patients exactly is to feel what they're doing Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been an absolute experience and I I love what we're doing and uh, this is really good and I'm going to go home and listen to cream I really am good and hopefully there's no one in the house, which means I can run everything at volume 11 I'll uh spinal tap. Yeah faith. Thank you so much for joining us today and thank you so much for explaining The behind the scenes of what music therapy really is and all the different facets that it can cover. It's absolutely amazing Thank you so much. You're welcome. Nigel. Thank you Everybody out there in viola land. I hope you have found this interesting as a rational therapy I was unsure on how today was going to go because everything we've talked about in the last 10 minutes is 100 true I did lose a very dear friend last friday and uh I'm actually feeling pretty damn good at the moment and a lot of that of course is uh because of faith her personality And what she was doing on the keyboard. It was absolutely fascinating I'm Nigel Aves your host. We're not quite at the captain's lounge studios at the moment We're at the brit bannerman studios here in longmont see you next time and uh We've got a really interesting program coming up for you in the near future. Take good care Stay safe. Bye. Bye. Thank you