 Welcome everybody. This is the Iran Brook show and I'm particularly excited to be talking today with God side We we were introduced by Mark Pellegrino Last summer and we've been trying to coordinate a time to talk and it's finally here So welcome God. Good to have you on the Iran Brook show. Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be with you Wonderful and you know this one thing that strikes me at looking at your bio is the parallels between Your life and my life there seem to be really interesting powers were both we both born in the same part of the world Not that far from each other. We both emigrated and left. We both became atheists We're both honorary members, I guess through Dave Rubin of the intellectual dark web, although I think you probably belong there more than I do And they're just a you know, I think we have a similar attitude towards Islam and towards religion generally and and towards a lot of things So it is kind of the journeys. I find I find kind of fascinating But you beat me in one dimension. You live in Southern California. I don't well. I don't anymore So, you know, I have moved to Puerto Rico. Oh Okay, so now there's absolutely zero reason for me to be envious of you Well, I don't know you you live in the cold of Toronto. So Montreal even worse There's a cold but no, I love I'm enjoying Puerto Rico So and and in terms of in terms of taxes, you should be very very very very jealous of me We can we can talk about that offline but so Yeah, I moved here recently. I owe you also Left the Middle East at a younger age and I did and I I visited Beirut after I'm uninvited After you are right after you had left. So I was in Beirut in 1982 It's part of my military service in the Israeli army. So Well, the story is that had I had my father won the argument with my mother as to where to emigrate out of Lebanon He was certainly happy to move to Israel because we have a lot of family there Had he won that argument then I would have been with you probably I'm guessing I'm a bit younger than you. You're three years younger than me You're okay So I would have been at exactly the age of my first year of military service And so I would have been the and of course I speak Arabic. So I would have been the first guy into Lebanon. Absolutely Yeah, so I mean there's a ton to talk about because they because I know There's a lot of stuff going on in the world right now that we're both interested in and I think At least it seems like there's a lot of overlap and our views on I'm also at some point want to talk about evolutionary psychology Partially because of my ignorance in the topic and partially because I I'm trying to fit it in to kind of the framework I come at things from and see how it all works together, but let's just start with some of the Kind of the political issues and the whole issue of free speech and and how you came to this issue where you know, you're an academic you're doing research I mean, I didn't read your bio because everybody can find it and it's amazing I mean the number of publications as a former academic The number of publication is stunning That's another parallel. We're both we both taught at business schools. I left early, but we both taught at business schools and I never had that kind of publication list. Maybe maybe I would have gotten tenure if I had that and and a number of books so Look got up. He's got it. He's on Wikipedia, but his bio on the Concordia University website is Is very is very amazing plus you a Twitter God and you're you're a YouTube phenomenon, so I'm jealous on those two I'm still I'm trying to catch up much. I don't sleep much. I know the feeling So yeah, okay If you want me to start with the yeah, how I got to move to weigh in the freedom of speech issue I mean, there are several ways to to address this. Let me start with sort of a more deeply personal one so There is a book That by Eric burn, I think that looks at something called transactional analysis What is this? What are the key scripts that define your life in the same way that an actor? Receives a script and he has to you know, play that particular role And so that particular form of psychoanalysis tries to look at what are sort of the defining scripts that shape the trajectory that you take in life and In in sort of being introspective that I think the the one word That maybe captures my trajectory best is the word freedom and I'll give different examples of How that manifested itself in my life in very very different domains So when I used to be a very competitive soccer player I used to play the central midfield role where I sort of the number 10 role where I sort of freely move around the field Whenever I score the goals I score not I wasn't the top scorer I scored goals, but I was much more the playmaker the guy who touched the ball. Oh, so midfield. Okay. Okay Now whenever I would have a coach who would impose some Positional restrictions on me, you know, you're gonna play a bit more to the left You're gonna cover this guy suddenly that completely incapacitated me because my ability to freely create float around Which was probably my biggest Skill Was lost. So here's one form of freedom That really defined whether I played really well or not then when I became an academic The idea of only publishing and these Four journals because that's what you're supposed to do if you're in this field. I found that terribly constraining I wanted to have the intellectual freedom to navigate through different landscapes and Therefore I ended up having the career path that I ended up having and then when it comes to freedom in the way that you use The term I despise having come from the background that I come from in the Middle East Any intrusions to what I think is great about the societies that I emigrated to right the fact that We're supposed to be free and so then add to that the fact that I'm someone who Maybe rightly or wrongly can simply not stand Bullshit right. I'm I'm offended. I'm genuinely angered and which is not a good thing It's not it raises your blood pressure. It makes you upset at money things rather than not Right, it's but it's also intellectual honesty. It's a it's it's a I think it's a it's a really important Characteristics, so you know having a good bullshit finder detector is is is valuable I think in life. It's value with your own thinking, but it's also it's also makes you an honest player It makes you somebody who you know doesn't stand for bullshit. Absolutely. Yeah and so because of all that as I started developing a you know a Reasonably broad platform because of all the social media I thought that it was imperative for me to weigh in on all the intrusions to freedom that we are seeing whether it be in the University or in the greater society and of course as you might imagine There is a terrible cost to be to be had when you speak the way that I do Now it could come in very direct forms such as you receive a lot of hate mail and threats and so on But it could come in more subtle forms Whereby perhaps University can't fire you because you're tenured and you you are who you are but there are ways they can ostracize you There are other jobs that you could have gotten that no longer and so but when I weigh the Calculus my most important sort of currency is when I go to bed at night and put my head on the pillow whether I feel no Regret at not having done something that I could have done. That's what I judge my actions on and therefore I have to weigh in That's great. I mean, that's that's really this this issue of integrity having having intellectual integrity having integrity in one's life So when did this issue of free speech because I assume because I remember time where I never thought about free speech I just took it for granted and and partially now in Israel I have to say You know, there was some limitations on my free speech and one day I'll tell the story But when I came to the US part of my assumption was yay, I'm in the land of freedom I could say whatever when did it occur to you that there was an issue here that yeah, you could I mean You could call somebody out on BS But they were actually now penalties to be paid for doing that So I think I saw it in different spheres So in my academic career as someone who and I guess we'll talk about this later Someone who you know founded and developed the field of evolutionary consumption the application of evolutionary psychology to consumer behavior I saw it there because most of the Colleagues not my natural sciences colleagues, but my social sciences colleagues where what is this idiot saying this whole biology stuff? This is insane. What is he talking about sex differences? And so there was already there a sense that I was speaking something very heretical I would get papers desk rejected where the the editor would write back to me and it would literally be as though I am communicating with an utter moron right where he simply that he or she did not recognize What is this biology have to do biology is relevant for the zebra and the mosquito? What are you talking about? We're consumers we transcend that right so there's so but to some extent that's part of academia Isn't it? I mean don't you see that in really anybody who's pushing the envelope who's doing new work? I mean I remember in finance You know the people who started doing Behavior behavioral finance Which which you know I agree with somewhat and disagree with other things But but they were doing new work, and it was new and it was Nobody would take them seriously for years, and then of course now Everybody takes them seriously and now they dominate the field so they learn people like that so well I was my professor by the way. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. I Connections. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very much steep in that tradition and so so I first sort of saw it Professionally in my academic career, but then as I would go out into the world and interact with people often times with academics It struck me how? Constraint people were to just have open conversations even in context where it wasn't public, right? We're just chatting at a party everybody weighed, you know, they're every word whereas I'm someone who was very irreverent I just speak my mind right and So then that's the second place I saw it and then of course in the greater society when I started seeing all the identity politics and so on everywhere I just I couldn't take it I was like a pressure cooker and in a sense Twitter because oftentimes people say well Oh when you interact on Twitter, you seem oftentimes to be a bit more Sarcastic well, it's because in a sense Twitter is my means of letting out the steam from the pressure cooker, right? When I'm having this kind of conversation with you now, I have a different communication style Then I'm one go I'm going after some idiot on Twitter So Twitter in a sense is my personal therapy and allows me to deal with the craziness of the world. Yeah, I I mean, I can see that I'm Tempted on Twitter. I Sometimes hold back sometimes I don't but I can see because in 100 some part of it's the cleverness of putting it into 144 characters and now longer kind of a real diggits You know getting at somebody and just I used to tweet the state of the union addresses Which was a lot of fun because I had something to say about every sentence it and plug in the president It doesn't really matter. I have something negative to say about almost everything they say so it was it was a lot of fun I noticed the free speech issue I guess really after 9-11 and I noticed it really on on two sides of it There was a sudden rise of patriotism where you couldn't criticize Bush and there was a sudden pushback against anybody who criticized Bush And I was very critical of Bush on his right if you will I thought he was a wimp So I thought I thought to deal with the threat that we really faced you need to be a lot tougher And you need to be and and people say no you can't do that You can't criticize Bush and and then so that was kind of from the right and then from the left. Oh my god I mean people would yell me down and demonstrate and and attack and I was I don't know if you'd Daniel pipes But I was often with Daniel pipes doing events after 9-11 and it was just it was just mayhem I Noticed that them I think before that I really did take it for granted Acknowledging the academic side. I think that's always existed. I think if you're pushing the envelope in academia Even on a whether whether what you're doing is right or wrong I mean put put that aside just pushing the envelope and challenging the authorities to be it's part of the tenure system They reinforce themselves It's it's it's always there, but on the culture it was 9-11 really struck me as this real change in the culture Yeah, I think I probably agree with that because You know, there are different Consequences to trying to restrict someone's open and honest dialogue about an issue and I suppose there is no greater You know important issue on a civilizational, you know scale than whether and how we handle the issue of whether You know Islamic doctrines are you know are consistent with our secular liberal democracies and so on and so in that sense I agree with you and what amazes me is the extent to which and I've weighed in on this In other venues the extent to which my academic colleagues Refuse to even engage in a discussion on this topic even in context where no one could know that they're taking these positions So even if I want to have a private conversation with someone at a conference sitting at a bar the amount of You know hedging that they engage is and it shows you I mean if you are this afraid Given the current demographic realities. Do you want me to predict? What's going to happen to your fear when it's 10 times where we are today? So so I think I agree with you that where the sort of the issue went on steroids is Precisely when Islam became so central to our daily lives. Why do you think that is what is it because it's absolutely that you Cannot it's as if they've got a battle going on in their own minds. I'm not supposed to think this I'm not supposed to say this. I'm not even supposed to hear this and so you can't even have that conversation one-on-one with people because they're so Afraid of the consequences. I guess so I think it's to it's twofold. Let's talk about sort of the more banal one Well banal but even more consequential people are literally physically afraid they're afraid I mean right I always tell people who think that all religions are equal I say why don't I set up three different websites for you under your name and One will be critical of Jainism one will be critical of Jehovah's Witness one will be critical of Islam And we will post your Personal address and then let's test your idea That's a very easy way to empirically test your position and then of course they kind of shut their mouths, right? But I think a second reason that's maybe a bit more difficult to actually penetrate is the fact that people have been Peressitized by this notion that it is uniquely gauche and inappropriate to criticize Islam because you know, it is a Religion of the brown person. It is the religion of the downtrodden Yes, even though in most places where Islam rules it's by far the majority in most of the cultures It's 98 99 100% so they're hardly the minority in terms of the places where Islam rules They really rule but they're still downtrodden in the sense of they're still poor They're poor. They're refugees. They're noble. They're they're exotic, right? And so so to criticize Christianity is extraordinarily Progressive and if I want to be part of the academic ivory tower to criticize some idiotic notion and Christianity makes me progressive If I criticize something as idiotic if not more so in Islam Well, that's just racist and bigoted and so until we're able to convince people That there is nothing unique about Islam in your capability to to to attack it to critique it to ridicule it to mock it Then we're going to have this problem. Well, I was it. I was giving a talk at Oxford and This one professor tried to convince me that Well, while it was okay to criticize the West for slavery It was wrong to criticize other cultures for slavery. That is you being a Westerner can only Comment on your own culture and it you you have to just leave other cultures alone And it was a woman and I said so you're okay with the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia And she said I wouldn't be okay with it if I were treated like this here But I can't comment on I can't have a position because it's multiculturalism. It's so insidious It's unbelievable. Look, my my next book Will deal with what I call idea pathogens, right? So I I I analogize Biological pathogens that Parasitize brains. So, you know the classic example I give but there are many of these that I'll be covering in the book There's a mice can be infected with a particular Parasite that causes it to lose its innate fear of cats, right? Well, that's not a very good thing to not be afraid of cats when you are a mouse, right? There is a type of there are ungulates. So elk move the moose deer that when they become parasitized by a particular brain warm They start engaging in what's called circling behavior They go around and circle and they cannot extricate themselves. So if the predators are coming They will still go around so I argue that in the same way that there is this class of biological pathogens human beings can also be parasitized by idea pathogens That that will lead us down the path, you know towards the abyss of infinite lunacy So multiculturalism identity politics cultural relativism postmodernism radical feminism all of these Each of them might not be sufficient to you know make you collapse your edifice of reason But put together it becomes a tsunami of nonsense. That's difficult to defeat. Yeah And I I think that's fascinating it because all ideas. I mean all bad ideas are gonna generate that it's just a question of How many and and to what extent but and and I think and this relates we'll talk about this more I think I think reason is an achievement, right? So the default is all the crap the default is is is religion and mysticism of all Because I consider many of these ideologies mystical because they they're not rooted in reality They're not rooted in fact so the default is mysticism and and and in this and and reason is an achievement And if you let go of reason in any one of these ways Disaster follows whether it's a civilizational disaster or individual disaster. It's a disaster follows So what what you're basically saying is that it's easy for human minds to be parasitized by idiotic viruses And you're exactly right. Yeah, it takes great effort To actually not be parasitized to be inoculated from these pathogens. You're right. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean in a sense You know Rand viewed that effort as the essence of what free will is that effort to engage your reason is The essence of what free will is it's to turn it on or to turn it off to engage in the effort or not I was gonna say be careful never say free will with Sam Harris. You'll get very upset. Oh, no, no I you know, I know I every one of these members of the intellectual doc web I have a whole list of things that I disagree with each one of them and it's You know, it's interesting. It makes for a lively conversations That's that's although many of them many of them are avoiding me. So Two weeks ago, I was speaking at the Association for Psychological Science Conference in San Francisco And I was delighted to be invited by I guess the gentleman who coined the term Eric Weinstein. Oh, yes Yes, he invited me and he was maybe he doesn't want me to say this but we're speaking on the phone He said I just want to let you know that it wasn't me who did not include you in that list of And that I think it's because he was being very gracious because at one point I was trolling the New York Times Author who had and I it's people literally thought, you know I'm sitting in my bedroom in a fetal position sucking my thumb crying. Why why did I was trolling her? I was having fun. I had a smile on my face. I said, don't worry about it. Eric I'll learn to love again. It's okay. Yeah, I think I'll always be on the margins But I think you are deeply embedded in the intellectual doc web So I think it'll be a while before anybody embraces me inside except Dave Dave seems to be the connector and And the person who links us all together, which is wonderful. I mean, it's just I love the guy He's he's fantastic. I actually saw a thing somewhere. I don't know where that had Done exactly what you said sort of had done a sort of a first-level sociometric analysis and I think Dave was the in the middle of all the exact. I think that's absolutely right. I think that's right. Yeah So yes, I mean Islam really functions as as one of these But it's but you know, I've always viewed that the the civilizational issue and I wonder what you think of this is not Islam Because I think it's pretty pathetic It's us, right? It's our inability to define and defend Western values what it is to mean Western if we actually had that conception They would be a little they would be a pest a little pest that we could get rid of it's not You know, they don't really have the weapons or the intellectual firepower any kind of firepower to threaten us It's our weakness a hundred percent that allows us to mean you you probably know this quote It really in several versions that comes from several Islamic leaders and thinkers Who have said the following? So I'll kind of paraphrase it We will not conquer the West Militarily we will conquer the West in three ways through the womb of our women through hijra Immigration that's the Arabic word and through by using your miserable freedoms against you They say it loudly they get on top of the mountain and give you the exact playbook and you're exactly right that it is It is the weakness of This the self-confidence in your own values that allows this playbook to play out, right? And I've often said that I despise The Western weakness a lot more than I do the Islamists because at least the Islamists are fighting for a cause You may not like their cause, but at least they've got they can They act out their convictions and you have to respect them for that in some, you know Deluded way, but the Western castrated coward. He's the worst of the worst I I agree completely in and even those three So I think they actually hurt their cause when they engage in violence because it's a violence The wakes up the westerner at least for five minutes to defend himself But those three all three would be combated easily by the West saying If you as by the West assimilating them and I think we have a powerful Philosophy a powerful ideology that would assimilate them So it turns out that in America the Muslims have fewer kids that when they're better assimilated that fewer kids they You know, they all the three kind of drop away because they become American or they become Canadian or they become whatever It's because we don't demand assimilation Because we don't know what to assimilate into like you ask European. What is Europe? They don't know they have no idea What are Western values? Maybe they think Christianity, but that's they downfall if they think the West is Christianity It really is the whole Islamic agenda falls apart Yeah, if if once the West stands on its two feet But the problem is that the person who is fully assimilated it takes a very small Committed interaction with the holy books to again, you know be revert to being problematic, right? Maybe so so so the question my question and of course, you don't know who will succumb to that pull and who won't My thinking is very simple any ideology It doesn't matter which one doesn't have to be only Islam that is incongruent with our foundational values I don't need to tolerate it. No one needs to tolerate it So if you wish to come into our cultures and abide by our foundational values without us seeding a Single millimeter on any of those values welcome in my brother Let's live together in peace if you don't then there are many many other cultures many other places where you can exercise Your right to your religion, but your religion never supersedes the right of a third party. It's really not that difficult Yeah, I I mean and again I think if if Western cultures committed themselves to separation of church and state Committing themselves to a female genital mutilation is a crime and we will prosecute that crime Committed themselves to actually following the rule of law Then you get that then then if they they come and they don't belong they leave But you don't you never surrender one iota to them my challenges that some people would argue we should have a Ideological test before they come in to the country and that worries me to know when because giving the government the power To decide on ideology Scares the bejesus out of me So I would rather government never thinks about ideology we Culturally enforce it and and frankly how difficult would it be for someone who is committed to cause? Let's put a charitably mischief to beat any ideological test, right? I mean it doesn't take a evil genius to beat What do you think of female genital mutilation? Oh, I abhor it. What do you think of Jews? I love them Yes, what do you think of gays? They're my closest friends. Geez that took a lot of difficulty for me to beat that the ideological test Right, so this is why I think all this vetting stuff is complete nonsense I mean yes, there is vetting that you make sure that somebody was not an active member of a terrorist group But to really vet your heart and mind bullshit. No, I agree I agree and and and you know I've been arguing since 9 11. I don't know your position on this But I've been arguing since 9 11 that all they need all one all the West really needs to do is crush them It's really defeat them make it clear to them. They cannot win Psychologically, it's very difficult to become a passionate suicide bomber for cause that you know is lost So if we made it clear to them that their cause was lost that they had no hope of ever achieving it I think that the the appetite for the radicalization for the for the for the suicide bombing would decline dramatically and more and more of them would want to go with the winner, which is the West So let me give you a quick anecdote that comes from a saying that the Taliban members Use so they say apparently that the Americans have all the watches But we have all the time in the world right inshallah, right? So so so to speak to your point I think that the the temporal view of those who are committed to having Ultimate peace around the world where we all will be under the flag of Islam So you see Islam is a religion at peace it seeks peace absolutely are all under the flag of Islam How could you say that that's not peaceful right and so so I think the the issue is that the Western mindset is very different In terms of its temporal orientation from sort of the Islamic one or at least the expansionist Islamic one and again I hate to preface this most Muslims don't think like this and are lovely and are kind and I want my children So my issue is that the guy sitting on the fence trying to decide am I gonna go the Islamist throughout? Or my go-go just be a normal human being I Think he's swayed to go one direction or the other by where he sees more confidence Where he sees more interest and where he sees victory so when ISIS was gaining territory Lots of recruits because they were winning But if if ISIS is crushed on day one if if the Saudi Theocracy is eliminated if if if the theocrats around the world are destroyed, you know It turns out that November 4th 1979 The the taking of the embassy by I told a Khomeini in Iran was a key moment in Islamist history Because it emboldened even Sunnis that said oh wow if we can do it in Iran if you can get rid of the show Are you on a relatively secular westernized country? Then we could do it anyway they went to all these other countries and and really the modern Islamist movement was started then Sunni and Shi'a and if if if you if you destroy those models for them, then I think Yeah, they're always gonna be a few always, right right, but the the passion the growth the the excitement the energy around it I think dissipates Let's hope that you're right. Well, we don't never nobody will ever do what I tell that what I what I what I argue for So we'll never we'll never actually test that theory. So we will see I Know that you know Tommy Tommy Robinson. So I just want to ask you I don't know him I I've read a little bit about him and obviously he's in jail now because I just wanted your view because you've met him and About what he's like and and what your evaluation is of what's happened to her. Yeah, so One of the reasons I wanted to speak to him One of many reasons was precisely to attack the notion The kind of grotesque notion even coming from, you know, otherwise sophisticated people that my god How could you talk to this neo-nazi bigot right wing extremist now in all of the positions that I had seen him I mean, yeah, sometimes he's he's you know, he he uses discourse that that that I would not use But I had never seen truly, you know outlandish hate from him And so one of the reasons why I wanted to offer him certainly my platform was to Hopefully show the world that he's actually quite a measured guy and you can't imagine the number of people who have subsequently written to me and Who've told me I jank I feel ashamed that I actually had bought Fully the idea that he is basically Hitler and then after seeing him on your show He came across as a very reasonable guy that had no no hatred in his heart But that felt that his society should should be protected And so my interactions with him have been nothing but Wonderful, I've never seen any sense even when we spoke offline not just, you know in the tape conversations I never saw any hatred from him Now when it comes to what's happened to him, I think it's it's grotesque I even I did a sad truth clip on it recently I mean, it's amazing how many people wrote to me angrily saying, you know, sad You're such a moron. Do you not realize that he broke the law and he was warned not to do this? But then the question is why does such a law exist in the first place? Why is it that someone cannot be indignant and report about the? Industrial scale level rape of little children, right? I mean if that is something that should not cause you indignation Now then they would come back to me and say but he is threatening the integrity of the case These guys are going to look it's it's all bullshit. We clearly know That people would love for him to just shut up and go away because they're if nothing else They're embarrassed at having been complicit in the wholesale rape of children via their apathy And so I think it's grotesque and he will go down as an important historical figure. So so yeah, I mean I the law The law of practice consistently one could argue about whether a law like that should exist or not I don't know but it's clearly not practiced consistently So so that you know clearly he was you know, he was singled out for for prosecution It looks like and it's it's not that if but you know if you practice the law consistently and he knows the law Then he could have protected himself from it You can still comment on the trial without being right there, but it's it clearly they were out to get him Yeah, and it's really disgusting. I've spoken to him off off record where he shared with me Yeah, I mean I won't get all the details, but you know of when he goes into prison Let me tell you if for no other reason Right, most of our colleagues the academic types who who are who who navigate in Cowardice and then you see the sky who again whether you like him or not whether you disagree with his positions or not is Putting his life on the line in such Unbelievable ways, how could you not admire that? Yeah. Yeah. No, I I agree. It really is horrible So I noticed on a different topic. I noticed that You've been doing these videos and call Jung I'm just channeling the Jungian drum beats archetypes. Okay, please No, cuz until up until now I understood everything you said and I like that What motivated you is this part of this kind of BS detector? It is BS detector I wouldn't have cared about him were it not for the fact now people say Oh, you're doing this because despite the fact that you pretend your friends with Jordan Peterson You really hate him now because he's successful. You're just jealous. That's right But and the reason which I stated in my first It was that I receive a lot of emails and requests to weigh in on Carl Jung because he has been Re-invigorated into the conversation by Jordan, right? And therefore what I was doing there is after receiving the 13th trillion message asking me Hey, Dr. Sad Can you give us a sense of what you think of the astrologer of the human mind and grand bullshitter Carl Jung? This is these are my words And so so now I sort of gave a bit of a thing with with this trilogy of young in that Clips that I did but now people are upset. Why aren't you spending more time actually delving into? dismantling each of his positions and my general point was For the same reasons that I'm not going to come up with a series as to why Creationism is bullshit and it's not because I'm running away from it Look has he said anything that makes sense, of course He even used as an evolutionary psychologist He used evolutionary ideas some of them are wrong But he certainly had some very nice insights about how evolutionary theory might be relevant in shaping archetype But is a lot of the stuff that he's written and said complete mystical occultism new age utter non-scientific bullshit 100% and I'm not gonna waste my time Re-prosecuting a case when psychologists have left young 50 years ago. Yeah, yeah, and and So what do you think Jordan is doing? I mean is he is he finding the better stuff there? Or is he bought into some of the beers? I I think it's it's a bit of both. I think that the I think that Jordan's message Look when when I sit down with Jordan on on my shows or in other times when we met and so on and we're doing sort of Just hardcore science stuff It's fantastic But his greater message where you know, he's he's also a self-help guru and so on in a sense It is more powerful if it includes elements of the young yin stuff and the quasi religious stuff And that right you become a lot more of an apostle and a true guru of how to lead one's life If you incorporate some of that mystical bullshit So I don't know if he does it willfully or whether he's done it because it ultimately taps into some of his greater goals But in a sense, I'm quite disappointed in it And as I explained in my clip that I recently released where I said look Jordan And I could be great allies on 95% of things but I could disagree with him on some things And that's not because I hate him or I'm jealous of him That's because I wouldn't have the intellectual integrity that people know me for if I suddenly say Oh, but when it comes to Jordan if he ever says anything that I consider bullshit, I'll keep my mouth shut. That makes no sense Yeah, no, and I think I think that's absolutely right. I mean people are so afraid of You know intellectuals criticizing one another. I mean, but that's what we do right I mean part of what we do is we debate ideas. We discuss ideas as long as it doesn't become personal as long as what we're talking about Is in the realm of ideas? This is what we do and to stay silent when somebody else is saying something that you think is bullshit is Wrong, it's just it's not honest And look, I'll give you one or two examples of other things Which I'm not sure if I'm waiting on this publicly or not So, you know Jordan argues about, you know, how could you have morality without this? Julio Christian Foundation, we would each be these selfish Psychopathic we can talk about selfish. I mean you can talk about the use of that word And so when I when I when I see something like this, I mean it really holds me back it to me That statement would be like me saying on a public forum Everybody knows that the earth is flat. There is no proof that the earth is not flat And so that position that there is no clear unequivocal Unassailable scientific basis of morality is so outlandish that it borders on saying that the earth is flat So when I now criticize that position of Jordan, it's not I hate Jordan. I love Jordan Jordan is a lovely guy He's a friend. I would love to have him over for dinner But do I think that that particular statement is false? Yes Yeah And we will we agree on that completely we might come out with a different Outcome of what morality is but we agree that I mean it's ridiculous And but it's a commonly held belief. I mean Jordan is not unusual here Jordan is the mainstream I think I think we're the ones who are unusual, you know Sam Harris says we can bridge the is odd gap I believe we can you know, I believe we can bridge the is odd gap. That's that science Does lead to morality you can you can find more, you know You can find your moral values and virtues farmer scientific analysis of human nature and of reality but But the common view You know reflected by Jordan and Prager and Ben Shapiro But but really by everybody out there is that no you need some External something on that is not understandable to give you morality. Otherwise you become a motorist Otherwise you become an animal with no capacity to reason and control yourself I always say that you know, we're it not for the Torah I would right now be looking to decapitate puppies and rape their Their headless bodies. It is only through reading Do tyrannomy and the other the five books of Moses that I refrain from raping dead puppies, right? I mean it is so laughable that was and by the way the reason why I feel attention in in criticizing Jordan because on the one hand he is a friend, you know, absolutely. On the other hand as he is becoming bigger Yep, then my commitment to truth Supercedes my affection for you for our friendship, right? And so I'm torn right because I'm because I don't want to be attacking him in the same frontal No nonsense way that I sometimes can and so I'm torn right because I do think that there are so many things on which Him and I are such sympathical allies freedom of speech and all right, but for example when it comes to postmodernism and His attacks on postmodernism and my attacks on postmodernism. That's great But then if I ask you so do you believe in God and your answer is what do you mean by do I? Yeah, I believe in God then I'm taken back So are you now satirizing postmodernist or have you become the king of postmodernist, right? So this is why I'm a bit conflicted regarding Jordan is because I think in the grand scheme of scales. It's fantastic What's happened with him and I only wish him the best, but I'd like for him to cut down a bit on the bullshit But I think you get the Torah or wrong because my reading of the Torah They actually teach you how to decapitate puppies and I mean I remember those passages For those of you who say we only criticize Islam look we're criticizing now The holy books of Judaism and we think they're also bullshit. You see I do it all the time So people are used to it for me, but you know, yes I mean there's no free speech in in Judaism when Moses come down down for the mountain with the with the 10 Commandments and Some of the Jews are worshiping a golden calf He doesn't calmly put them down go over and say, you know, you have your freedom of religion Go do your thing. Just leave us alone. He drops them because he's so angry He picks up a sword with this with his brother and slaughtered as I think it's 30,000 people that day and God and God Rewards him right and he gets a reward from God for doing that because he stood up for the true religion So don't give me this Religion a piece about Judaism or about Christianity. None of them are religions of peace faith does not go well with peace Exactly, right because because it's only reason. It's only reason It's only a capacity to argue and debate and use reality as the standard of truth that allows For peace because then the truth we can discuss it. But once it's my faith versus your faith Yeah, well and earlier you were talking about, you know, any idea should be debated I mean, what's the peer review process, right? I mean, I spend years working on some project right years to come up with the Topic and then collect the data and then write the paper and then you send it off to a journal and let me summarize it for you You're shit. You're shit. You're shit. You're shit. Go away. We're rejecting it, right? I don't go on a jihad That's I it's I expect that for my paper to eventually be published It has to pass the highest level of scrutiny So why am I subjected to that lens but Islam or Judaism or Jungian bullshit is not right? Everything is fair game. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, and I think I think you're absolutely right. I to me the biggest danger with what with what? Jordan is doing is his connection of morality with religion and the idea that morality cannot exist outside of religion. I Think that's a very very dangerous trend because it means it means in spite of his interpretation of Abraham, which is complete bullshit It means morality is authoritarian, right? That's that's the essence of the story of Abraham You kill your son because I told you to Yeah, right morality is whatever I tell you to right if you know, not that I'm God But if I was and it's very religious morality is always authoritarian morality Well, I think it shows by the way that even sophisticated thinkers and I don't mean to be patronizing, but no, no He is a sophisticated thinker who's got great depth and you know, I know it better than most Can still be prone to being parasitized by Idea pathogens, right? So in his case his particular blind spot and perhaps we all have blind spots Some will argue that my blind spot is that I love animals, but yet I eat burgers That's my behavior of blind spot perhaps But his blind spot is I think that given his own religious bent He has constructed, you know an epistemology That is quite puzzling to most of us who otherwise respect him for his intellect in other domains Well, and it's an outcome of his metaphysics because his metaphysics that's where he goes He gets it wrong. His metaphysics is to some extent a kind of primacy of consciousness metaphysics reality exists Because we think of it right and it's it's not reality is independent of our own consciousness and our consciousness job If you will is to identify what what is out there? It's to it's to identify it and then Integrate it and reason you use it for for for thinking So I think he goes wrong in metaphysics and then that that kind of takes him takes him away, but that's religion That's religion, you know, that's religion. It's it's a tough one. Oh, wait, let's let's jump into Just and I don't know how much time if you have time constraints as much time as you need Okay, I want until you get tired of speaking to me. Oh, that could be a long time I mean, it's ad infinitum because to get tired of speaking to me is an impossibility Exactly The only part I might get tired of is listening because I like to talk so that's the only challenge No, no, no, no, you're doing great. I did not mean that I Meant the part of me like you to talk not the part of listening so so let me let me Let me Pause it something and tell me if if you agree or disagree or how this fits in I mean, it strikes me and and I'm I believe in free will I think you do from from what I've heard I know Sam doesn't but I think you do so my view is that that we are That every one of us there's a component evolutionary component There's a genetic component that that has a say in who and what we are There's clearly environmental component. There's there's influences and then there's the choices we have made along the way to engage with our minds or not engage to be lazy or to use our reason and That to me that is the most important component and that in a sense can override the others in that's what makes us human ability to override them Does that is that makes sense does that is that the way you think about the world? So so let me step let me take out the free will conversation from the discussion for a bit So one of the there are many Points on which the tractors of evolutionary psychology will like to focus on each of which are perfectly incorrect Some of them are scientifically based, but most of them are ideologically based in other words Most of the people who hate something about evolutionary psychology. It's because it attacks their essential pet Ideology of theirs. So if I am religious, I hate evolutionary psychology because where's God in your thing if I'm a postmodernist I hate evolution psychology because there are no human universals if I'm a radical feminist I hate evolution psychology because it's not true that there are evolved sex differences and so on and so forth, okay? So one of the things that people argue regarding evolution psychology is they say oh, but it is a form of what it is not the form It is the form of biological determinism if you provide a Biological evolutionary genetic explanation for a phenomenon then this argues that we are slave to simply execute that algorithm And of course that is profoundly idiotic because for most things not all but for most things as you correctly said We are an interaction of our genes and our unique environments even genes themselves get turned on or off Depending on environmental inputs. So the correct position that All evolution of state is the interactionist position So to argue that something is biological based doesn't remove the influence of the environment So anybody who tells you that evolutionary psychology is Biologically deterministic is simply advertising. I'm a moron who doesn't understand anything. That's all he's saying, okay? So so on that on that issue. It's clear that the issue of free will I'm kind of Puzzled by it and I should mention I haven't done enough reading on all of the different You know schools of thoughts on free will but if I were to summarize Given my very limited reading an exposure to sort of the free will debate Sam Harris and Jerry coin both of whom have been on my show and our good friends Basically are you look we are nothing more than basic natural laws and if you unfold all of the cascading You know physical reactions that are all materialist then we arrive at the point that we're at and that's it It could be nothing else That seems profoundly Unimpressive to me. Here's another one that they usually say The brain will often time have there's a delay between when you recognize that you're going to do something and the Neuronal signature that again doesn't suggest that you don't have free will it literally just means that there is a neuronal lag Between you being aware of it and your brain actually Manifests manifesting that neural activation pattern. So to me maybe because I'm not into all of this sort of mental masturbation I see it as a profoundly Useless debate because if free will is something that doesn't exist Then I'm really wasting my time trying to study psychology of decision-making because what is is let's all go and have a beer, right? So I might be missing something and I'm sure there will be tons of messages at the bottom of this comment saying I thought that God said what's smart, but my god? What a moron he doesn't suffer to me Of course, we are bound by physical laws But ultimately when I'm trying to decide whether I'm going to marry person a or b or buy coke or Pepsi I don't understand where the free will conversation comes in. Maybe you can enlighten Well, I mean it's a it's it's an ancient conversation It goes back to Greek philosophers and it's it's been debated to know and then I'm not a philosopher So I'm not going to try to to to get a bit You know that even with the with the neurological issue, right? So what example to these raising your hand and and I'm quite Willing to accept that whether I raise my hand and every given point of time is determined by lots of other things that come beforehand So where do you put the essence of what free will is the engagement if we wise? So I start by the fact that first of all, I know I have free will because I know I feel well I can I can tell that I'm making choices Something is is making a choice and by very would that we use choices decisions That means that they're options. What's that you will respond to that forgive me for interrupting you They will respond that it's an illusion. It's exactly you all the illusion because it makes sense for you to be diluted in that way Via that free will illusion that is the same argument the postmodernists give to me when I say this is a pen It's an absolutely unequal. I can see it and I can touch it Well to me introspection is like seeing and touching just about you about your own nature You cannot the reason doesn't mean anything if if it's not some it if it's not if there's no free will It's just a it's just a Straightforward physical biological process that we engage in all the decisions have already been predetermined in a sense And even if you have the the the environmental component. Well, that's again just deterministic and it's all just deterministic. It's it's one big To me they what so so Rand's view is that that the essence of free will is this idea of Engaging your mind or disengaging it? Focus like you get up in the morning and you kind of dozed off a you know You have to sleep and you you actually make an effort. Okay. I'm gonna focus now Oh, you sit down to write a paper, right? You sit down to write the research and you said, okay I'm really gonna focus now that focus is What is the essence of free well in a sense everything flows from that now can I explain it? Biologically can I explain it physically in terms of no, but lots of things I can't explain in science You can't yet explain physically or biologically, but I can see it right in a sense I can see it in myself Now, yes, you can say it's an illusion But then we might all be just in a vats right and this could all be a dream. That's the same argument It's a silly argument. You we have to rely on our senses We have to lie in on our own observations about the world But how and again, maybe someone's already proposed this argument. So please hold your hate mail I'm a novice on this debate. So if only because it profoundly I found it profoundly Unsatisfying as a as a point of this guy I don't mean that you bring it up Yeah, but just as a certain that I'm going I'm willing to spend to you know reading 2000 year But let's what if I were a machine That simply that so I'm actually I'm called the Gad machine so that if you present me with two women the the manifest preference that I would choose as woman a in other words if all the cascade of all of the Physical laws that would result in me instantiating my preference to woman a I now create a not Gad machine. So whatever I was going to manifest as my choice. I now choose the opposite of that, right? So what would so then what would that be would that be that? Oh, but that's that's simply the cascade of neuronal? I mean, yeah, and it's in it And you see it's you can't from it might be possible to create a machine that we from the outside cannot tell if it's has free will or not But we're not we have experiences we have a consciousness We we we we experience life, right machines don't experience Right, not they don't they're not conscious animals have experience and maybe they have some free will it's hard to tell if they make choices or not But we through introspection can tell that we're making choices. So I so I agree with you It matters because there's no morality if the if we're all deterministic Nothing matters if we're all deterministic. It's what's the point of studying things if we're all deterministic We you know go to beach and I don't even know what that matters if but then so let me ask you this So what what is the main reason? Maybe this is a maybe it's this is too difficult of a question What is the fundamental? Intellectual reason for this debate. So for example, you might say well for some people They want to argue that there is no free will because that serves to excuse People's actions and they want to be softer on crime. I'm making this up. I don't know But so what what is the intellectual pool of this conversation that I'm missing? Well, the intellectual pool is in philosophy certainly moral agency, right? Are you responsible? I think that's the fundamental I think for somebody like Sam and I'm speculating here and I you know, I'm sure he'll contradict me But it's he wants to be a scientist He wants everything to be grounded in science and he views free will is mystical somehow It's a it's this little spark of God and the truth is that in the past most defenders of free will have defended it on mystical grounds and So when he so he I think he's thrown out the baby with the bathwater When he rejects religion and he's rejected everything mystical and I'm all for that I'm rejecting for everything mystical, but I don't think free will has to be viewed as mystical It might be something we still don't understand. There's a lot of phenomena in the natural world We still don't understand But it's a natural phenomena that we can all observe just we observe any under scientific phenomena And I think that's what you're saying is like I deal with free will all day I don't call it that because I deal with choices, but if without choices, this is all just mechanistic It would be uninteresting if I was just analyzing the decision-making of robots Because I always look as an algorithm Good so what would he say and again, I'm asking you to put yourself in his And it's only because you probably are much more familiar with this debate than I am so When I wake up every day and try to understand the evolutionary roots of human behavior What would Sam say about that exercise is it still worthwhile because not what's standing the fact that we don't have free will At least it allows me to predict behavior better. Would that be his position? He would say and again This is me trying to channel Sam out, which is very hard because he's brilliant and you know, and I mean He's he's a phenomenal mind, but my guess is what he's saying is the more knowledge we have The more inputs into our computers the better decisions the better outcomes we will have So while I'm not choosing but the more exposed I am to truth The more information the computer has the better the outcome coming out of it. I think that's how he'd explain I'm not moved, but okay. Thanks for the explanation. So so let me try this on you Again for an epistemological perspective, you know trying to understand what it is Exactly, it's coded in terms of evolutionary psychology. What it is that's coded in our genes So I'm just gonna divide kind of human experiences and or human. I'm not sure exactly what the general title here We've got certain inclinations We've got Emotions and we've got ideas Now to me ideas are not something that can be encoded because epistemologically ideas come from interaction with reality And we have to be alert and aware and a reasoning being in order to get ideas But I can see inclinations being coded. Does that make sense? So it depends how you defend I'm not being postmodern No, no, no, that does depend how you define everything depends on how you find it So let's take an example and then you tell me whether this is an idea or whether it's an inclination to use your nomenclature, so Let's say How we respond to beauty or how we specifically respond to beautiful faces So evolutionary psychologists argue that all other things considered a more symmetric face is Across the world viewed as more beautiful than an asymmetric face because of certain signals that symmetry Exudes or or Okay, so now the question becomes well is is is that something that is learned or is that something that is Inscribed and the way that you would test that in this case There are many ways to establish that something is part of our biological blueprint One of the ways is through developmental psychology You could take children who are not yet at the age whereby they could be socialized by definition They haven't reached that cognitive developmental stage. You could show them photos of People's faces that vary on symmetry and then you could simply watch how long they gaze at one Or the first one that they gaze at or the first one that they try to You know touch how young could you do this with kids? You could you could around six months old I think the study that I'm thinking of is, you know, maybe six to nine months old Similar thing you do for example with toy preferences Because the social constructivist will argue that it's it's the socialization of Teaching little boys to play with blue trucks and teaching little girls to play with pink dolls that starts the cascade of gender roles Socialization well, you could take children who again are cognitively speaking too young They're infants six months old nine months old and you could show that they already exhibit those sex-specific preferences so what so what evolution psychology has is a very very broad range of Data that it can use to unequivocally demonstrate that something is as part of our biological heritage, which by the way speaks to something that really annoys me From the detractors of evolution psychology when they argue that evolutionary psychology is Pseudo science where you just come up with just so stories It is the exact opposite of that that serious evolution psychologists do because what to to really build an adaptive argument To argue that something is an adaptation. You have to build what? So I talk about this in one of my recent papers Nomological networks of cumulative evidence. What does that mean? You have to find data stemming from different cultures different time periods Different paradigms different methodologies all of which point to the unassainable truth of that statement that you're making Charles Darwin himself had done exactly that in in origin of species now He didn't call it nomological networks, but what did he do over a 30-year period? He collected tons of data from radically different sources once you put it together You can't counter his natural selection argument and so So to go back to your question So I so is the beauty is beauty is the innate preference for certain beauty markers and inclination or an idea So I suspect it's an inclination that then we build ideas over so so You know so there are a number of things so one is I've met a lot of women who you know wow beautiful And then after ten minutes they look like Unbelievably ugly to me right because I like their personalities. Yes, because their personalities have come through and it changes How I look at their face right so and so that that to me is yes the inclination is there But once I learned more about what beauty means to me today is more than the symmetry because I've integrated that preference With a whole set of other ideas and now when I see their personality. I can't even see the beauty anymore. It's gone So they're not beautiful to me anymore Of course, you know artists know and in Michelangelo and Da Vinci and all of those great artists all knew that there's certain symmetries the certain patterns There's certain, you know pyramids of shapes that human the human being responds to Positively in a way that they don't respond to other things certainly to use a Jordan Peterson thing We don't respond well to chaos, right? You know unless you're a modern artist and you can talk a lot about modern art, but in terms of real art You know that we don't respond well to chaos we respond to certain patterns and and I think that's that's an inclination I mean, I don't know the science You do and it sounds like it sounds like there's but I think we build on that So we take an inclination and then we build an abstract idea of beauty. That's got a foundation in our inclinations It becomes the idea of beauty Right, and so I guess maybe that also relates to more broadly the idea for example of a meme to a meme a flex Right a meme is the sort of smallest unit of it could be an idea that spreads from brain to brain Using at something akin to you know the propagation of genes The meme a flex is the collection of ideas. So religion is a meme a flex whereas a Singular ad slogan would be just a meme, right? So I think that's what you're speaking of you You have a set of biological inclinations on which we then build a bigger edifice of ideas Yeah, I think epistemologically they're different because the one is in a sense somehow coded ingrained and the other We have to gain evidence from reality and apply reason and I think the only way to do this is by application of reason integrate But but the foundation is there with that inclination. So that inclination serves as the as the I Don't know a foundation on which you build a house, right? and I would say so just to build on what you're saying so take for example something like the the Innate if people some people don't like the term in a but you know clearly we understand what it means Take the innate Pension for men to seek social status, right? So the the universal is if you like the Darwinian rule is seek social status Now the manner by which you instantiate that will vary across individuals and that by the way shows you that it's not Deterministic right so you and I share a common desire to ascend the social hierarchy Because that will get us greater access to women But I may choose to do it by becoming a famous professor You may choose to do it by being a great diplomat or a painter or soccer player or whatever it is that you choose So that's what then creates behavior or heterogeneity, right? Because a lot of people think oh, but if something is a human universal that implies that every single outcome will be exactly the same We will all know we can instantiate the same Darwinian rule in radically different ways But so so this is where I've got a problem, right because social status Is not something that I think in terms of and think about the world in terms of You know, I want to be good at what I'm good at and I because I want to be good at it because it adds to my self-esteem and it It hurts and I'm not looking for women as my wife will tell you And And I don't think about, you know, you know, the social with social media I think about what other people are doing right because because you measure it in terms of likes and stuff like that But in most of what I do in life, I don't think about how this affects other people I think about whether what I'm doing is true and right or good and and often I lose people more when I when I do Something on Twitter or something then I gain So I never I've never thought my life ever thought in terms of social status or found myself Seeking it cross social status rather than I want to be the best that I can be at what I am doing for me This this relates a little bit to the selfishness before but Yes, and you know, I'm Rans where I come from so So I think if I think about If I think about particularly, you know, I don't know a Galileo doesn't seem like what he's doing is to attain women I mean, he's doing it because he's he's he's got a passion for the truth And he's trying to she's trying to prove and and and he's and he's following where reason will take him rather than following where his Needful of sex takes him. Are you ready? Sure As if I hadn't already blown your mind get ready to have your mind blown what you're describing is the difference between Epistemologically one of the most important things to know about evolutionary theorizing and that is the difference between Proximity explanations and ultimate explanations. Okay, okay Proximity explanations explain the how and what of a phenomenon Most of what scientists do and have done throughout all of recorded history has been at the proximate level Most Nobel Prizes are one at the proximate level. It explains how a mechanism works Yep, what are the factors that affect the mechanism the? Ultimate explanation ultimate doesn't mean superior. It's ultimate. It's better ultimate in the Darwinian sense It is the ultimate Darwinian. Why why would the phenomenon have evolved to be of that form, right? So Even though you may not do the things that you do with a conscious recognition That the ultimate goal is to get women your Behavioral system your emotional system your cognitive system at the Proximate level has evolved to pursue things that ultimately catered to that ultimate goal Do you follow what I mean? Yeah, so so even though you don't say I'm getting up today to write a book because Hopefully I'll get a lot of hot women to have sex with me. You care about your reputation You care about people liking your ideas. You don't wake up every day and say here's what I plan to do today I plan to be lazy Apathetic and hopefully say as many dumb things as I can and as broad a public forum as possible, right? So therefore even though you don't consciously Appear as though you are slave quote to the ultimate goal. That is what you're doing So Galileo cared greatly about what his colleagues thought of him and whether we like it or not It ultimately relates to some fundamental ultimate goal. Did you follow what I'm saying? Yeah, so why does some so a few a lot of questions actually so why does some people Are lazy and do nothing and go on You know social media and say stupid things that that that are turning them into the opposite of What would attract? Because the random combination of each of our genes that makes our unique person hoods are such that we don't every single moment of every day Pursue life as though we are perfect Executors of these biological drives, right? If that were the case then we would be these perfect beings I mean, why do people succumb to anorexia nervosa? Why do people get addicted to heroin, right? So but and if I can answer that very quickly So it in two of my books I talk about exactly that question if we are such adaptive creatures I mean this speaks to your point. Why do people do stupid shit, right? If we are these adaptive creatures, why do we succumb to maladaptive realities? And the way that I answer it in a grand sense without getting into the details is that each of these cases anorexia nervosa Pornographic addiction pathological gambling are misfireings of adaptive processes. Do you follow what I mean? So there is an adaptive process which if it fires within the adaptive range leads to good outcomes But soft sometimes it's more inactive sometimes. It's more hyperactive and by the way cancer is that sure sure, right? And so so so I think you could totally put within the rubric of evolutionary Theorize this fire was all sorts of stupid shit. Yeah, so so I would say that those people are not engaging their reason and and defaulting to To being determined by the misfiring but if you engage your reason, you're not susceptible to that So reason is is really the evolutionary tool that allows us to take control over that and not to leave ourselves at the random whim of the misfiring But do you think that in all circumstances your capacity to Have access to that that reason faculty is always there. So for example, I am a heroin addict at that moment It is impossible for me to engage what you're calling my reason faculty No question. If you screw yourself up enough times, right? If you if you default on the capacity to reason enough times You will lose the capacity to bring it back or at least under under some circumstances, you know maybe if you go sober and you Completely, you know redo your life and you rethink it then you can get on the right track But it takes a lot of work reason takes a lot of work falling off of reason, you know Ignoring reason becoming a religious mystic. Whatever Is easy and and then going back to reason would would take a lot of work But I think that what makes us human is Up is our ability to override right our ability to take control over all these influences the misfiring's that and and and to Really channel our lives in a positive direction. Let me ask you let me let me ask you this So if I am so we know that both men and women have evolved both a desire to pair a bond And also to stray in other words, we we are certainly animals that wish to have sexual variety so if I am married and I have a wonderful wife whom I don't wish to lose but there is an opportunity for me to execute My Darwinian program of seek multiple You know sexual conquest How would I? Seek my reason faculty to go through this particular choice I mean, you know the the essence of it is to think right? What are the consequences of the action? What is the consequences short-term? What are the more importantly? What are the consequences long-term? Who does this involve dishonesty towards my wife if it involves dishonesty towards my life my wife? What does that lead to one of the best things Jordan Peterson does in my view is this discussion on honesty? It's it's his discussions on honesty, you know, brilliant because I think dishonesty is very very damaging and very very harmful to you And therefore to the people of surrounding you So so if you're not engaging your reason then hey There's a hot chick at the ball, you know And and and Ben Shapiro has used that example to criticize many of my views, you know If you're an egoist then hey, there's a hot chick at the ball You just go and have the hot chick but no if you really care about your life then you stop and you think okay Yeah, there's a hot chick on the boy. I might get some pleasure from sleeping with although again even there I think sexual pleasure is not only physical. It's also spiritual and therefore it has a dimension That is affected by who you're sleeping with just like beauty is impacted by who is beautiful And if I engage my reason and say yeah, it's probably you know given that I'm probably gonna have to what it related my wife about this and And I've got a contract with them. I'll be violating the contract now We can discuss whether the contract is valid and whether it should be a contract But but then we'll really get into trouble if we if we do that But but so I would say that's where reason comes in and you and you don't act on the impulse You act as a human being that's the difference between us and animals is we don't act on the impulse The animal doesn't have a choice. We have a choice Free will if you will to act on the decision on to think it through and to analyze the consequences and some of us do that And some of us don't we know lots of guys who don't do that So it's at one point you said, you know Honesty don't lie and by the way when it comes to these kinds of issues I'm very much of a the ontological guy there. There are absolute truth that you should follow Yes, but then later you said Well, you know, we think about the consequences which leads to another set of ethical, you know, rubric which is consequentialism, right? So a Deontological would be I never lie. Yes. It's absolutely, but why don't you lie? Why did you come to that deontological conclusion? See, I would say that I came to that deontological conclusion that absolute unequivocal decision because I've evaluated the consequence and Have generalized that lying given my nature as a rational being given the consequence it has is a bad thing I do that once I come up with a principle and then I never lie again. So here's my Forgive me. I'm no, no, that's why we're we're playing devil's advocate Because otherwise we'll agree on most things and people will get upset what these two guys were doing a I hate that term circle Jerk, I despise that term stupid. Yeah, it's it's such a vulgar term So let me ask you this then isn't it the position that you're taking potentially unfalsifiable in the following way, right? It reminds me of how The the classical economists would argue that any choice that you make is ultimately what the manifestation of Maximizing your utility is right. So therefore that which I do is what led what I arrived at through my reason So what about the guy who says I am going to weigh all the calculus that Yaron just did And from my reason calculus great It makes perfect sense for me to potentially take the risk to sleep with this really beautiful girl with the beautiful behind Yeah, and and and be dishonest. No, I think that's a that's a great question and an appropriate question that I think there are absolute moral standards so so the ontological standards that You can say that being dishonest is wrong Always now I know that by induction from experience that is by inducing up just from my experience from knowing human nature Understanding how reason functions that the destructive role dishonesty has in your own mind not just other people all of that I know that through both seeing the world out there Understanding my own nature so morality the moral principle should be those absolute principles that Consistent with human flourishing with individual human success and and and that's what morality should study So this is where you know put on my moral philosophy head. So this is Aristotle like Aristotle's project was The goal should be individual human flourishing How do we how do we get there right? What are the what are the principles that lead us to individual human flourishing? I think that's what morality should study right it shouldn't study Sacrifices and how to treat other people devoid of purpose it should study What are the things that lead to successful human flourishing scientifically and this is where science and morality go high and head And I think it doesn't take much to show for example the dishonesty is scientifically bad for you For every human being quaw human being so that if that person is doing that calculus Yeah, you know then he's deceiving himself and He's he's taking an action that's bad for him and this is why I disagree with economists I think people do things that are bad for them all the time I think people are not utility maximizing maximizes I wish you know given that if utility meant anything I wish they were Utility maximizes, but they're not they do stupid things and they don't think they don't engage their reason they don't evaluate So yes, I think they are moral principles that that Hopefully every human being at some point discovers and integrates them and then never violates them so Look one side of me very much agrees with you that there are a set of the ontological principles that I like to live my life by Almost to the point of it being maladaptive So my mother used to always say you know God the world doesn't operate according to your purity bubble And what she was referring to was the fact that I was this sort of very very pure guy who lived by standards that Just the world is gonna constantly violate and I'm going to be unhappy. That's why you're successful. Well, thank you I would but on the but on the other hand I also think that we have behavioral plasticity Right so and again that speaks to the earlier point that we talked about when we talk about determinism, right? So the same Behavioral strategy might be optimal in condition a but might be suboptimal in condition b So for example, if I were to abide by the the ontological statement I never lie and then my wife whose birthday is tomorrow comes to me with that dress and says hey Dad, do I look fat in that dress? Why is that the example all guys always bring up when discussing honesty always? But because it's a Darwinian beings and that's one of the places where we are oftentimes forced to lie And then you have two choices at that point you either adhere to the the ontological position or you go no sweetie You look gorgeous. So all human knowledge is contextual and and the context has to be taken into account. I Mean my wife, you know, we we have a certain game right with regard to the dress, right? And with her the game is I have to tell her the truth. Otherwise, she'll really be angry And and but but most people don't most people there's a game Do I look fat and you expect it say no you look beautiful? It's amazing and and it's a game and it's not about reality because nobody participating in the game knows That's a game the other examples if the Nazi comes knocking at my door and says where the kids I want to take them to concentration camp of course you lie because the context is the context of every decision Should be your life, right? Life so if nobody has a right to anything including the truth At the expense of your life, right? So so the life has to be as always the context in which every the ontological context concept, you know fits in so So yes, I think they're universals Within the context and you know, I don't consider I don't you know lifeboat scenarios There's a lot of morality when you take a morality class. It's usually the trolley You push one lever you kill five people another level you kill 10 and my argument who cares? I mean first of all, it's not that's not morality. That's just stupid It's it you're never gonna be in that trolley. Morality is about what you do every day in your life Morality is about how you live your life. It's not about trolleys It's not about lifeboats in a lifeboat scenario. It doesn't matter what you do. You're screwed either way, right? And with a trolley you're screwed either way. There's no right answer But in life, they're all right answers. So yes, they're gonna be Exceptions that are emergencies are just unusual circumstances, but 99.9% of the time They are principles that guide your life that should lead you to success and happiness and flourishing and and and we've got You know, hundreds of thousands of years of human experience to show us that it tends to work So what would be say the top three that you could think of that you use to guide your daily actions? So to me the number one so there's one that integrates all the others, right? And that's be rational, right? Rationality to me that you know, take control over your own mind take control over your own life That's what rationality means. That's why I'm not dishonest because I know that, you know Gobbage-in-gobbage-out kind of thing. You don't want to you don't want to mess up the mechanism of dealing with facts You know, and then and then you want to apply facts dealing with other people and that to me is justice You want to apply rationality to every aspect of your life? So Reason rationality would be would be kind of number one and everything else would be a derivative of that But Rand, we're going back down in Rand, you know came up with seven And I think so so it would be rational productiveness the idea and this has a revolutionary psychology Can a connection I know You know, you want to be able to take care of yourself You want to be able to put food on the table you you want to be productive in the world You want to do things in the world to change your environment? It's where you get yourself esteem from it's where we get out Our confidence about the world, you know So you want to be independent you can't have other people thinking for you thinking demands that you do the thinking You want to be just you want to be honest you want to have integrity I'm missing one bit but pride is another one that's usually controversial but Because it also goes in the seven deadly sins Yes root of all of the other exactly and to me pride is so fundamental because you want pride Aristotle called the queen of the virtues So I thought it was the opposite of the Christian viewer pride and Rand is much more Aristotelian in that sense but I think I Not that I wish to argue that I'm going to reconcile those two conflicting views, but I'm going to reconcile that there in French There is a distinction between the two terms for pride right there's positive pride I'm very proud full of my work. I'm proud of my achievements versus pride Where you know, don't be don't be prized don't have pride and love be humble, right in French You have the two terms Fierce and or gay Fierce is the positive connotation of the word pride. So that's a virtue and Or gay So if you say no swap out gay you do not be or gay you that's the negative connotation, right be humble love So I think it's interesting how in some languages it Decouples the two meanings of pride whereas in English you use the same term for both contexts I think is one of the great Values of having more than one language because you get that perspective on concepts, which I think people don't have So I'm gonna have to think about Hebrew and whether I'll help fight now works in Hebrew It's interesting to say this because about languages because one of the well Maybe I hope the only parental regret that I so far have with my two young children is that between my wife and I we speak five Languages and yet our children only speak French and English and all of the other quote exotic languages so far Hopefully, maybe we can remedy it, but we haven't and and you're exactly right the the amount that they are losing So one of the things I talk about in one of my books is I take these evolutionary principles And I then demonstrate how in Arabic there is a exact term to capture that You know phenomenon. It doesn't exist in English or not. Maybe I if I could take two seconds to describe it so so You know one of the sort of fundamental Darwinian modules, so there's there's survival There is mating reproduction kin selection and reciprocal altruism And I know your relationship with altruism with iron and so on well again It's a question of how you define it right definition is not important Yeah, exactly. So in the in the Darwinian sense of reciprocal altruism, right? You know, I did for tat I scratch your back You scratch mine. I call it treating Now in Arabic there is a term for something that you should never do Which is when if you and I are good friends, and I do something for you I should never remind you of your indebtedness to me because that violates the most Fundamental social lubricant, which is that we build our bonds of affiliation through these reciprocal arrangements and to do that There's a term in Arabic. It's called that a big he's mean it right if you do that You are but now look how many words it took me to explain it, but we're just two words You got it. I know it's beautiful. It's it's I love languages in that sense And I only know to my wife now knows five and she loves these kind of relationships and everything. She's really But yeah, we had a hard time getting our kids interested in Hebrew and we lost interest in trying to Get them to speak Hebrew because it's sitting. Yeah, my wife and I both we met in the Israeli army So so we're both Israelis and the Zionist occupation army. Yes, the Zionist occupation army There's a whole other topic, but We gave up partially because it's an exotic language and I and it was very hard to be motivated to teach my kids a language That they would never really use, you know, and I think I so French is great But but practical language Spanish languages like that, you know, it'd be great if I went back I would Make an effort to really teach my kids those languages. Well the great the great News about my having Arabic as my mother tongue is that it is now the official mother tongue of most European countries. So when I so what so when I go to you so what somebody tells me they're going to France I say, well, are you sure you want to go to France because I mean, you don't speak Arabic Luckily for me, I could pass as anything you could go anywhere. Exactly. That's great I have I have two of the worst languages possible and two of the worst passports pass possible Yeah, and somebody at some point told me because my parents were born in South Africa They said you could get a South African passport and I said, oh, yeah, I need another another one. Everybody hates, you know Oh, what am I gonna do with that? Right a white guy from South Africa? Not a good idea. Oh boy Yep. Yeah, so that's We were talking about I get these I'm at the age where I fade out Well, I'll tell you this before you fade out What are the five languages that your wife speaks? So Hebrew English Spanish Portuguese and French now Very good. Yeah, and she she's she's working on the French and the others she's put she solid in but French She finds the hardest in terms of picking up even though she has the Spanish and the Portuguese She learned those very quickly. She uses Rosetta stone. I know if you're familiar with Rosetta. I mean, I'm familiar with I've never used it But yes, I mean she picked up these languages so fast at a relatively late, you know late in life in the 40s And just amazingly did amazing And she's fluent in Spanish and Portuguese now. It's we watch a Brazilian television at home So we're all the telenovelas She watches television. She watches the news from global So she knows about American politics through the filter of Brazilian culture. So it's it's quite entertaining So let me let me summarize the Brazilian position on America They suck they suck they suck. Is that roughly? Well, it's it's Somehow we know they must have exploited us. We're not sure exactly how but but we know they've exploited us We kind of admire them We want to be like them and but we don't know how to do it and it's probably them holding us back So we can't compete with them. Yes I mean most the world has this love-hate relationship with America Well, and none none more so than Canada right because Canada almost defines this identity as a sort of contra to its mean bad Ugly brother to the south, right? Yes, you're you're you're European America that we're you're But and more so when you're in Quebec, right? Oh, yeah, yeah But another sort of unique distinct culture. So that's a real mess. You've got the French on top of it all Wow, so I've got a lot of I wanted to talk to you about advertising and morality of advertising and Given given all this stuff Should we jump into that wait go for it? Okay? Let me let me do that and then we'll then we'll we'll call it a okay I've been told my videos are too long and then we can we can do another one. Yeah, we'll continue it another time Yes, it'll be fun I did want to say something about pride. That's what I remember. So so Rand called pride Moral ambitiousness. So it's the idea that you want to be good. It's the idea that you you want to be a good person It's that pride, you know when they used to duel over, you know, it's like on it I want to be a good person and I and I stand by my my my honor my pride my my I want to be as virtuous as I can be I want to be as good of a person as I can be and in that sense I think it's a positive and that's it. I know it's a positive But but there is there is a negative sense that the word is sometimes used as but I think I think Christian morality Confuses the two on purpose Because they don't want you to be morally ambitious because they because because you cannot you're born with an original sin You are fallen from day one and you can't think of yourself as too good That that there's something so they attack the legitimate sense of pride Not just, you know, what we'd consider, you know bad Let me tell you a quick story, which probably will make it into my next book I think I've only mentioned that once previously publicly maybe on Joe Rogan show This is going to pit the negative connotation of pride with truth. Yeah, so it's kind of an interesting Clash, so I was once having a conversation with a family member in my Nuclear family so not my fact not my wife and I but the one that I was born into with a older male Member, I won't say who it is Who is very prideful in the negative sense and we were having a conversation and he sort of flippantly said oh You know, yeah those ancient Greeks those Christians. They were they really hated the Jews something to that fact I said, oh, but you know, I'm sorry to correct you. I don't mean to contradict you But those ancient Greeks, you know, weren't Christians said what do you mean? Of course Greeks are Christian as a matter of fact the way you you mark the period is that you know, it's before Christ So you're actually literally marking it as before them becoming Christians So when it appeared as though he could not win that argument because just historically he was on the wrong side What do you think he then did to salvage his pride and hence not be truthful? What do you think he did? I don't even think you could be so diabolical as to guess what he did that truck Take a shot. I can't think of what he would do So then he says no, that's right. I'm right I'm the one who said that they weren't Christians. So he looks at me in the face Yeah, what I did. Yeah, this is a big excuse my vulgarity. This is a big this to my face, right? Yeah, he's saying when all else is lost and I have lost the debate I will look at you in the face and all and alter our positions such that I come out as the one who won the debate Yep, this is a perfect manifestation of the negative term of pride. I'm so prideful that I am willing to violate and rape Truth and human dignity in the most transparent ways to maintain my Yeah, so so there has to be another word that that reflects because it would be a shame if If we had to use pride in order to use that because that is and and you you have to know that that I Mean you have to believe that that causes him to be a miserable human being Well, yeah, I hope you won't watch this show. I think he won't It does because look I mean part of life is to have the epistemic humility To learn from others, right? I mean think about it, right? Yeah, I've come into this conversation thinking that on every single issue. I know more than your own There are some things I know more. There's that's what makes the interaction. Absolutely. Absolutely, right? So I think in a sense you are Unhappy because you don't get to experience all the richness that the world because you know more than everybody Yeah, a cardiologist can't teach me anything. I know more about the heart than he does Well, then what experiences are there to learn if I already know everything? Well, and of course think of all the errors you make if you really live that, right? And and they do and then they make mistakes because if you know more than the cardiologist, you won't agree with his diagnosis You know, but maybe maybe it extremes that doesn't happen But on a day-to-day basis you might be doing lots of things that are bad for you because you're refusing to accept other people's Knowledge that is superior to yours. Absolutely, right? Yeah, so it hurts you in many ways You want to go back to morality of advertising? Yeah, so so so My assumption is that that a lot of marketing the marketing is doing a number of different things, right? So marketing is both trying to convey information to us about the availability of certain products and their characteristics and trying to trigger us in terms of these Inclinations in terms of appealing to us to beauty or through whatever it happens to be You know, yeah, I think I saw you talk about Ferraris which which made me laugh because So I I knew this guy who had a Ferrari and he had an Austin Martin, right? And so, you know did well in life. My brother by the way, what's that? So that's my brother. He has three Ferraris and an Austin Martin So an Austin Martin a Ferrari and actually this guy was was was the was the CEO playboy magazine So that that can connect to you as well, right? And I sold him my day. I said I've seen both your cars and You know, I really liked Austin Martin. I would take Dustin Martin over the Ferrari and he looked at me He said that's your feminine side He said Austin Martin is a feminine car in the Ferrari's masculine. What's that? Well, I said is it anima is it that we're let's try to bring in the young in terms of Jordan. Oh, yeah Well, yeah, then you definitely lose me because I can't I can't handle that You're connecting to your feminine side. Yes. I'm connecting my phone So that I remember that when you were to when I heard you talk about the Ferraris So to what extent are they trying to activate that and to what extent would you consider? You know because a lot of people say we're just manipulated by these advertisers We you know, it's immoral because you know, that's the big critique of capitalism. We're just we're just automatons that are driven by Advertising and marketing said just riff on that. I don't know if there was exactly Look in most instances The advertisers are doing the following. So let's take the example of fast food They're saying the next time that your blood sugar level is down and you get that hunger signal just choose us They're not teaching you to love french fries and juicy burgers That already exists, right? So so the idea that advertisers are these evil Diabolical nefarious creatures that can get us to do things that we otherwise would want me to some extent at the margin That's true, but try to convince people to eat Grass juice, okay, and you'll have a very hard time Even if you had a six billion dollar yearly advertising strategy and Justin Timberlake is dancing all the way in the throughout the the commercial right sell those shots of Of that green yucky stuff in some of these juice bars and how's that going for them? You know a few people do it, but no it doesn't go all right All right, so so I think what advertisers do is exactly what you said which is Tell us about the availability. I mean they provide us with information And what they're basically saying is that to the extent that next time you're going to have some Darwinian pull get triggered Make sure that we win that competition don't go to Burger King come to McDonald's, right? But they don't they're not so good at peddling products that are against human nature, right? And so because often times people ask me okay Well, that's it's great that you've got all these wonderful scientific theories about the evolutionary roots of consumer behavior But from a practical perspective who cares and then here's one of the answers that I would give which speaks to the point that you ask Suppose you have a romance novel company You know the guys who've got you know the romance novel romance novels are almost exclusively read by women all around the world Right, and if you want to study the archetype not young in because the archetype doesn't just have to be young And the archetype of the male hero in in romance novels. It's always the exact same guy He's he's he's tall. He's a neurosurgeon. He's also a prince. He wrestles alligators on a six pack He's reckless and so on But he is tamed by the love of this one good woman It's the exact same archetype in every single romance novel Well, a company came out at one point with the idea that they no longer wanted to succumb to this traditional role of masculinity they were going to impose they were going to teach the readers a new definition of Masculinity whereby the guy is sensitive. He cries. He listens to Taylor Swift music He eats ice cream and he cries when he's wearing his sweatpants, right? Well, guess what that cell didn't sell So so so that's the practical but they But again, we can come back to choices, right because there is a sense in which they cancel right so the people out They who are vegans that God help them and I don't I don't understand how they can you know how they can resist that Juicy hamburger, but but they do and and and and and and I don't I eat boogers, but I I have Maybe it's a self-delusion, but I I only eat Goumet boogers, so I don't eat fast-food boogers because I've convinced myself that they're not good for me And I and I don't find them appealing anymore. I drive by at McDonald's. There's no Desire to go in so I've overridden some aspect of that of that inclination So we do have some in some respect. We do have some choice there or some control over these things Absolutely, right? Look, we have the Darwinian pull to stray from our marriage But we also have the evolved moral calculus and therefore these two so again that speaks to the determinism idea, right? No, there are at any given point many Darwinian pulls are pulling me in different directions And then it is quote my free will that allows me to choose from these different trajectories But if I can just add one more element to the morality of advertising issue so one of the things that I lecture about when in my say in my seminars and consumer behavior is when is it ethical or moral to advertise to children and Usually the argument there is that you can do so at that age when the child has the cognitive apparatus to build counter defenses to your persuasive message, right? And so if that age is 10, then that's what it should be now the reason why I mentioned this here other than to answer your question is because look how hypocritical this is because we build a legal framework so that we don't target children with serial commercials because Darwin forbid they might be Influenced to ask their parents to buy serial a but which product do we sell them straight out of the wound the womb? Do you know which one? No Religion religion. Yeah. Oh great. Yeah, right. So so so look at the so right So the one that will infect every aspect of their life for the rest of their life The one that will get them to feel that it is rational to fly Plains into buildings and they are the moral ones that one we sold them that Product straight out of the womb, but God forbid pun intended that we would sell them chewing gum when they're 11 So there's the grand hypocrisy. Yeah of marketing. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good no thought of that. That's a great example That's there you go. I Think maybe that's a good one to end on absolutely I don't want to keep talking to you. No, we'll have to schedule another one because this is this is productive and fun Thank you Yes, and I'm looking forward to meeting you in person one of these days, so maybe maybe the secret gathering of the Intellectual Doc web