 Hey everyone! Before we get started with Don't Call Me Resilient today, I wanted to let you know about another podcast I've been listening to lately. It's called Democracy Ish. In it, hosts Danielle and Wajahat break down the chaotic politics in the U.S. from a black and brown perspective. They keep things real as they share their blunt and quirky analysis of the current state of affairs. And they have a great goal, to envision a true multiracial democracy. Anyways, I like it and I think you might too. You can find Democracy Ish wherever you get your podcasts. From The Conversation, this is Don't Call Me Resilient. I'm Vanitha Srivastava. I feel like what was different with Buffy is they went about it to sensationalize and put it out there as a shock value. Knowing this would shock people across the country and across the world, and indeed it did, but they didn't take into consideration the effect it would have, particularly in Saskatchewan and more specifically in the community of Paya Pot. When the Buffy St. Marie news broke last week, I sort of recoiled. A CBC investigation was accusing the legendary singer-songwriter of lying about her Indigenous roots. I knew it was a big story, one that we journalists in the Canadian media would be called to cover. But I didn't feel it was our story to cover. St. Marie had already come out on social media ahead of the story and explained that she had been claimed by the Paya Pot Kree First Nation in Saskatchewan. And from earlier conversations on this podcast about so-called pretendians, those faking an Indigenous identity, I knew kinship ties were maybe even more important than genealogy tests, especially when it comes to establishing Indigenous identity. Kinship is based on who claims you, and based on Buffy's response, and also that of the Paya Pot Nation, she's been claimed. Isn't that enough? And shouldn't we leave this retired 82-year-old alone? Well, that was my first instinct, to not add fuel by covering the story. But then I heard from Laurie Campbell, a two-spirit Kree Métis educator and advocate, who made me realize there is a conversation to be had about this story. She's here today, and she asks whether Canadian media are telling the story in service of truth and reconciliation, or are they telling the story in a sensationalist way, in service of furthering their own careers. Laurie Campbell is from Treaty 6 territory in Northern Saskatchewan and a member of Montreal Lake First Nation. She was taken from her birth family and adopted into a rural white family in the 60s Scoop, and only reunited with her biological family decades later. She is currently the Associate Vice President of Indigenous Engagement at the University of Regina. She's also a PhD candidate in social justice education at the Ontario Institute for Studies and Education at the University of Toronto. Laurie, let's start with how you're doing after this news of Buffy. I think like everybody, it was a real shock to the system just hearing this news and not even about whether it's accurate or not. You know, Buffy's been an icon, was one of my role models since Sesame Street back in the day, right, when you didn't see very many Indigenous peoples around. I was thinking about it, like there actually weren't that many women of colour on Sesame Street. No. There weren't racialized people there. Right, so it was a big thing and for myself being from the 60s Scoop generation and growing up with a non-Indigenous family in rural Saskatchewan, you know, where you didn't have contact with other Indigenous peoples and we didn't have cable or a satellite dish or anything and we got two channels. So all I had was TV to see the broader world and when Buffy showed up on there, in my little mind, it was, you know, there's somebody like me. Yeah. What a beautiful shining star she was on that screen. I remember it too. So clearly the long black hair and everything, the jewelry that she was showing and the fact that she said she's from Canada and all of that. And she's Indian. I mean, I'm South Asian but you know, there's still some kind of like relationship there that I also built. You mentioned some of the parallels of your story. Can you tell us a little bit more about your story? Absolutely. I was born in Regina. I know that I went into foster care and when I was about a year and a half old and I was adopted, like I mentioned, into a family in rural North East Saskatchewan and I had a lot of opportunity with that family. But I always knew I was Indigenous and they knew that as well. Missing for my life was the skill set to teach me about who I was as an Indigenous person or an understanding of Indigenous history and realities in Canada. So I moved back to Regina when I was 19, started university here. I'm at the University of Regina playing basketball and when I came here, I found the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College, which is now the First Nations University of Canada. And I remember, I took a class called Indian Studies, actually my first degree is in Indian Studies. There was like Indigenous like professors and administrators and students and I had just never dreamed of such a thing. I didn't realize that was a possibility. And so I often say that I started learning about who I was and where I came from, from people who did know who I was. They knew that there had been all these children taken away and things that I didn't know growing up. And so I started to learn about who I was through my research and researching with the government in various provinces. I found my birth mom an immediate family and some extended family. And then it would take another just about 20 or 18 years or so to find all of my six siblings that were living. And they are spread out sort of between Alberta, Saskatchewan, a little bit of a touchdown in Manitoba and then over to Ontario. It was difficult. It's lucky that I am a researcher. I work at a university, so I have an understanding of how to do some things, but it's not easy. Literally today, just moments ago, I finally got a letter back from the government because I helped my birth mom do the official paperwork and she is now a status registered Indian because that was taken away from her. She's 66 years old and I just called her a few moments ago and she was almost crying just to have that recognition. That's amazing that you're able to do that. I'm just wondering how personally you're taking this story. I feel the pain of trying to find out who you are. And I know the challenges that come with that and the doubt that comes with it. And is it true? Is it not true even when I first phoned who I thought was my birth mom, who is my birth mom? And so I think about all those things. I am now getting messages from people who are about my age who are 60 scoop and are still trying to find out who they are. And they're wondering how I did that and if I could help them. And I think in many instances, there are government records, but they're not easy to get. Like they're not forthcoming with it. And so I think that's very frustrating because it still feels like the government works against us instead of supporting us in reconciliation to know who we are and where we come from and letting us work through that. They're not very supportive of that. In the documentary, in the fifth estate documentary, one of the researchers says there's so much documentation actually on Indigenous folks because of the colonial powers because they wanted to control us. So that's one of the cases against Buffy is that there's so much information there. But I think what you're saying is it may be there, but it's not that easy to get. It's not that easy to access. No, and I've learned things in the last few days as well. In the documentary, it said something about like that Buffy was born at a hospital around the Craven area and of course the Saskatchewan governments. Well, there was no hospital over in that area at the time. And that's true. And I was talking to somebody else that I know very well, not quite as old as Buffy for sure, but who said that they were born in rural Saskatchewan in a senior's home because there was no hospital. And so that parallels also what the story is that Buffy may be saying. So that is a possibility. There's all kinds of possibilities, midwives, other kinds of facilities that are created that when there's not the traditional institutional way of birthing a baby. There's been a lot of like pretendian stories where people are outed for basically committing fraud, for claiming indigenous roots when they don't have any. And some of these names we know, they're the writer Joseph Boyden, the filmmaker Michelle Latimer. But this Buffy story feels a little different. What's different here? Some of the people that you've mentioned that have been outed as pretendians are people that haven't had really strong reciprocal relations within indigenous community or been claimed by indigenous community or family in the same way. And in some ways it seems they've taken opportunities away from indigenous peoples who have the lived experience and have used their privilege to come out ahead. And so if we're competing against a non-indigenous person who's probably had more privilege but is pretending to be us, they're probably going to come out ahead because they've had more opportunity in life. So I think that's one of them. And the common thread is dishonesty about who they are. And so as time goes on, the stories get a little messed up. However, when I first was adopted and had some government paper, my parents were told that I was Metis. But I was also told later on that my grandfather was not Indian. And when the government said that I was Metis on those early adoption papers, all they meant by it was that I was mixed ancestry. So nearly in the true sense of genealogical historical Metis, which turns out that I am, but they didn't understand it. So they convoluted that. And then when they said my grandfather was not an Indian, I was expecting to see some big white dude. And well, he was the father saying from that that you can imagine. I mean, nobody would have thought he was a white dude. He was full on Metis, but it said he was white or said he was not an Indian. And so that's also confusing with Buffy in particular. I think it's hitting a little bit harder in Saskatchewan, because this is, you know, the community that she has spent a lot of time in. People that are having these conversations, I know them personally, all the feelings come out and people having such uncertainty and feeling betrayed and arguing with each other. And I think that's what's really tearing up my heart. Everybody's response as we work through this is valid. And regardless, a piece that was missed in the CBC story really was about some traditional adoption. Buffy was traditionally adopted into the family at Paya Pot. She has maintained a relationship of love and, you know, being an auntie and cousin and sister are all there. And that part doesn't change whether she's biologically indigenous or not, right? And I think that's one thing the public, non-indigenous public has trouble understanding. But even I went and spoke with one of my aunties and some of my cousins from my birth family a couple days ago. And I said, like, I would assume, I said, maybe I'm wrong. But if I were to find out today that I was mistaken and my mom was not my mom, um, obviously I would talk to you about that. But I would assume, you know, that because we've been in relationship now for 30 years, me as the niece, the cousin, you as my aunties, that wouldn't change. And, you know, and they all agreed. They're like, well, of course, you know, that would worse. We'll still be in that familial relationship and we'll still maintain that. And so I, it just heartens me to think that even if Buffy created a story that isn't true, you can't just break off those familiar ties. Like family is, you know, it should be unconditional in that way. And so I think that trying to make people make a choice, one thing or the other is really difficult and cause a lot of upset for folks here. One of the scholars that we work with said that there is a colonial way of identifying family. There's an indigenous way of identifying family. And they both need to be recognized that we can't, that in some ways that a lot of the outing is, is maybe seen as beneficial to indigenous communities. But is it really beneficial to indigenous communities? I'm partly wondering about that. I think that's also been a bit of the concern about what does that mean. And this is for indigenous people to work out. It's for us to work and understand ourselves. Buffy's claims are that she is Cree. So that's one thing. So if she is Cree, that's, then she's adopted into a Cree family, but she's still Cree. If she's not indigenous at all, then she's, you know, Italian and adopted into a Cree family, which is also a beautiful, lovely thing. But if it were me, because of my love and care for my family that I believe to be my biological family, and because the struggles that they would be going through media and everybody else in the community, I would do a DNA test that would be definitive of whether or not I was their relative. Let's just spend a moment talking about the CBC investigation that led us here. What do you think about the CBC investigation? I had a very strong reaction to that because of the personal shock that the story sent through my body. And then the reaction that I saw, the rawness and the pain coming out on social media amongst indigenous peoples. And I do a lot of work in reconciliation. I work in education. I study the calls to action and look at ways to incorporate them. And the media does have a call have a couple calls to action, the CBC in particular. Within those calls to action is really, I think the importance of ensuring that you're not causing harm to indigenous peoples and that care and attention has gone into that. And when I think about, for example, when we have some grave site recoveries, if there's been a tragedy or homicides within our communities, there's a different kind of care that comes out with those reports. There's always a support and resources available. It's never like a surprise. Like it's not sensationalized as for shock. Like some media is, I feel like what was different with Buffy is they went about it to sensationalize and put it out there as a shock value. Knowing this would shock people across the country and across the world. And indeed it did, but they didn't take into consideration the effect it would have, particularly in Saskatchewan and more specifically in the community of Paya Pot. You actually participated yourself in a kind of act of journalism after taking in the CBC's journalism and how they did it. You wrote a story for our network, which is theconversation.com. So tell me, how was that process for you? Yeah, I just wanted to bring to the public's attention to have some care and kindness for the impact this is causing, the turmoil in indigenous people. Some people have emailed me and that my story has helped them feel validated in the feelings that they're going through. Others have emailed me and assumed that this is not a big deal and it's just a one-off. It's more important that we out Buffy. And so they're looking at it without having an understanding of intergenerational trauma and the impact and what it would be like to feel like you had one icon who shared the 60 Scoop story with you and all these other pieces of it. And so some people just don't have that analysis. Others have felt like have not spoken enough about the feelings of her American family. And interestingly enough, I very much paralleled when I did my story about finding my birth family. I didn't speak about my birth family in that. I just spoke about finding my family because that's what the story was about. But some people get really angry and assume that you're hateful towards the other family and that's just not the case. So that's just their own thing. I'm sure that that family is going through a lot as well. I just don't, I can't relate to it as much and it's not the position that I chose to write about. And others have made assumptions about whether or not I think Buffy is indigenous or not, which is also not what I wrote about. What I really just wanted to bring to attention was the way the story came out and that there's a lot that needs to be worked through and we need to be kind to one another because all the feelings are valid regardless of what is proven or not proven. So basically you're not making any kind of claim to know one way or the other. You're making a comment in your story about the way that the CBC reported the story and the way that they circulated the story. I'm wondering how much of your feelings have to do with the fact that this investigation was led by a non-indigenous journalist? Yeah, I mean there's a bit of feelings in there about that. It's a journalist who's been leading a lot of the stories that have been breaking in this area. I'm not sure the care and attention wasn't paid to the impact this was going to have on indigenous peoples in my mind and therefore to me it looks like it was more focused on advancing career and going for a journalistic shock value. And when that comes from a non-indigenous person that seems like it's a really bad way to go about reconciliation, it seems it's more for themselves than for us. And I'm not saying even that CBC shouldn't have done the story with the indigenous experts that were involved with it. It was really just about the care and attention in how it was delivered. Well it dropped on a Tuesday it was like there's this big story about Buffy. When it just left us all just hanging and fights were already started because it's so personal and you could just see on social media there was many of us who were trying to just put out love and kindness and pleading with people to be supportive of one another but at the same time there was others who were very black and white and divisive on the issue and people unfriending each other and it was just hurtful just really hurtful within our communities like we have some healing to do around this. I was listening to the Sunday magazine radio show on CBC. After the story broke there was a panel with Nikon Sinclair, Tanya Telaga and Drew Hayden Taylor so the three of them and of course Tanya Telaga is a journalist a global male columnist and she said similar to you I'm not saying the story should not have been reported. Like as a journalist if this story came to me I would feel obligated to report on it she said but she also said Buffy is entertained there's so many other important stories to be talking about right now and yet this is taking a lot of our resources so I'm going to ask you the same question people are already so upset why do you think it's important that we keep talking about it just like we are today why is this important? Well I do think it's important to understand the impact that it's caused there's a long history of people pretending to be indigenous and taking resources that were set aside for other indigenous peoples again whether Buffy's indigenous or not she certainly has provided a lot of funds and resources back to support indigenous artists but at the same time if she's not indigenous she took that opportunity away she took a general award away from some another artist and what impact might that have had in another artist's life and so I think we do need to figure it out we do have more work because we do know that there are others out there who are taking up these spaces and I was also talking with my auntie just before I wrote my story and it was an old one and we were talking about like the importance of allies and being a really solid ally is a really important role and allies have been adopted traditionally into indigenous families and allies have been celebrated and it's such an important role and when I was talking with the old ones both of them had said independently of one another is just like why are people not okay with just being that amazing ally and working alongside us and supporting us and being there for us why are they trying to be us Buffy's 82 and so it makes sense you're talking to your elders she's had such a long term intergenerational impact and you're talking about allyship do you think say these the story about Buffy is true let's just say for a moment it is true do you think there is a coming back for her as an ally I think if the story is true it's never too late to to tell the truth and if she did get caught up in a managers in a persona at a time when it was helpful for her career and then built strong relationships and loving and caring relationships with people and that she didn't know how to then tell them I do think it would be a good time for her to tell that I think it would be interesting to hear her side if that is the case and I think that you know there's some things that might be undone like awards or things like that and resources and even just the impact of she had on me on seeing her on Sesame Street like that won't be undone like because I'm already here now 40 years later I'm here it doesn't undo that particular impact that she had on me and likely on others you know like even yourself when you said we saw a brown woman on Sesame that isn't undone and it could set a path for others because the one thing we don't see is if she is not indigenous the one thing we don't see is people who have been proven to be not indigenous really taking solid accountability for that they tend to want to dig in their heels and make some other argument I would love to see somebody proactively that we haven't even been thinking about step out and say okay I'm gonna jump ahead of this and just share the story yeah that's what I would like to see just on a personal level I have a lot of empathy for the singer-songwriter who's 82 years old who was probably searching when she was young like 20 as she has said that there was abuse in her family and she didn't look like her her family according to herself and the nice pictures of her with her chosen family and they seem to look more like her and we talk a lot now I think a lot about chosen family you know the rainbow nation and all those kinds of chosen families that we go towards because our own family rejects us for some reason so I also think that there's room for her to talk about this in a more open way that anyways I can see the emotion and I hear what you're saying that especially in Saskatchewan where you are situated that this is very intense I saw her at the University of Regina perform there and it's quite magical to see how the audience reacts to her one of the things that you mentioned to me when we were talking earlier is this idea of the role model what happens to this role model then if this person was held up as this successful Canadian indigenous person and then everything's called into question now what does that do for this indigenous role model on one hand I had a thought like if she's not indigenous um you know a younger version of me a 20 year old version of me who was struggling with my identity and my life I could see myself going into you know a bit of a tailwind and then thinking that well clearly I can't make it as an indigenous person because the only indigenous people that make it and the arts and the legal system and all these things are actually white people pretending to be us and I could see a younger version of me like really struggling with my mental health and that concerns me as well what can we be doing you know as journalists as a public what can we be doing better with these stories and what should we be doing I think a good question that should be getting asked in media rooms is does this have the shock value we want okay well what is going to be the impact of that shock value and is it going to be the kind of impact that we're looking for is it going to be trauma inducing and I don't know if they thought that you know all the indigenous people were just going to be thank you some are you know thank you for this in all honesty the ones that I get that are like really um because I have emails from indigenous peoples as well it's not just non-indigenous peoples emailing me and and some are um not happy with what I wrote and and I really like you know we should be thanking cbc I would say that those ones what I notice is they're not from the prairies so they're further away which would make sense because they're they probably don't have the personal connection in history in Saskatchewan which is why it's more intense and more complicated here and so I would say my relatives across across Turtle Island that just to be aware of the context that is really place-based here in relation to Buffy St. Marie and the impact it's having and it will be different and so you're saying it's really different where you are people are more upset people are what are they most upset about there would you say betrayal grief lying you know indigenous peoples we we don't have a good track record of trusting people right yeah yeah I also hear what you're saying like in terms of what we could be doing better with the stories I think that in your article you you talked about the truth and reconciliation commission's call to action on number 86 that calls on Canadian journalism programs to ensure that all journalists are educated about indigenous laws I think that there is something to be said about who is telling the story and if if there was an indigenous leader on this story would they be asking different questions would they be emphasizing different things and these are the questions that we need to ask where Duncan McHugh is a CBC journalist for a long time is now teaching journalism he was on one of our episodes and he talks about decolonizing journalism what that means you know what what does that mean you're going to put front and center what questions are you going to ask how are you going to tell it differently yeah had they taken 10 minutes to cover that part of it regardless of who Buffy is or where she came from it does not mean that she does not have some sort of traditional adoption into this family here that doesn't really change and so even had they highlighted that a bit it might have helped with some other understanding to think about how any one of us might feel if somebody within our family maybe did something horrible or you know was not who we thought we were but whom we've loved and cared for maybe even at a distance for the last 60 years 60 years yeah right so yeah yeah how do you think we should end our conversation I just wanted to force I think like all the feelings all the feels are valid I just really want as far as like from the media perspective people to just really think about what they're doing and what the impact might be and it doesn't mean don't go ahead with it it may mean you know what maybe we should have you know put some resources in place or talk to Piapot community first and so that they can have a community space to gather when the story broke and be prepared for it and and and I'd still like that pretend you know there who nobody knows about just yet to step forward and say yeah I did this and let's let's make it right and I'm calling out others like me to do this thank you so much for your time today I really appreciate the conversation and being able to do the story in this way and to show this piece of it thank you for listening to this episode of don't call me resilient I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Laurie Campbell maybe her words and ideas can help you navigate some of your own conversations this week to read Laurie's article head to theconversation.com and if you want to find us on instagram we're at don't call me resilient podcast plus don't forget to follow us on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss an episode don't call me resilient is a production of the conversation canada it was made possible by a grant for journalism innovation from the social science and humanities research council of canada the series is produced and hosted by me venita sri vastava at the kakaki is our assistant producer sound design and mixing for this episode was krish dinesh kumar kikachi meme is our student producer our fabulous consulting producer is jennifer morose and scott white is the ceo of the conversation canada and if you're wondering who wrote and performed the music we use on the podcast that's zaki ibrahim the track is called something in the water