 Hi everybody, I'm sorry, welcome to the Q&A, is this better? Not too loud. On stage here with me are a number of the core committers. There's a few of us absent as well for a number of reasons but maybe let's do quick intros for those who have not met all of the people here. You want to start, Angie? Sure, so can you hear me okay? Hello, that's better. Okay, so my name is Angie Byron or I go by web chick on Drupal.org and Twitter and various other places. I was the Drupal 7 release manager, committer, person and now I also help out with Drupal 8, working mostly on user facing stuff like making sure our features make sense to end users and site builders and all that kind of stuff but I basically here to help make the community awesome. Hi, I'm Alex Pott. I'm one of the framework managers for Drupal 8. I commit stuff to core. I work for Chapter 3 and I'm also responsible for configuration management in Drupal 8. I'm Jess. My username is XJM on Drupal.org and I'm a release manager for Drupal 8. I've been committing to core for about a month now and I also worked on the views and core initiative back in 2012 and 15. Awesome, my name is Dries. I assume most of you have met me but I started the Drupal project. Also in the room we actually have a lot of prominent contributors to Drupal 8 specifically but Drupal in general and so what we're hoping to do is to make this very collaborative like make this a discussion so what we'll most likely end up doing is pulling those of you in the room as well so maybe to help us see who's here if you have contributed to Drupal 8 or if you have a patch in Drupal 8 maybe you can stand up real quick so we can kind of spot where all of the people are. A lot of you, huh? So we may call upon you. So the way we organize these sessions is obviously we post them on the Drupal website and then we invite people to ask questions. We didn't have that many questions so we're hoping to get a lot of questions from the room. To do so we're going to ask you to get up and walk to the mic because this session is recorded and so unless you use the mic in the middle of the room the people who will be listening to this you know will not get the question so when you do have a question please walk up to the mic and you can start walking up to the mic right now. I think we have one or two questions that came in maybe we can start with those and then please feel free to ask us any kind of question. Don't be afraid. I do bite but just a little. So the first the first question we got through the website is a question from Gapel and his question or her question not sure is as follows while the critical issue count has you know has been decreasing at a healthy steady pace that's not the case for major issues in Drupal 8 and in fact there's been a slight increase as was pointed out in the question and the question is is this a concern for the quality of the Drupal 8 release and also what are we going to do about it and I was thinking maybe Jess you want to answer a question in your role as release manager. Sure so it just to give some background information some specific numbers for that question. Right now I think we're at 25 critical issues that are still open down from 130 in November of last year so in six months we've gone from 130 critical issues to 25. Those are the issues that specifically block release 24 24. That's a new low by the way since I think that we've had more than that since the release of Drupal 7 so that's four years all-time minimum as far as I know which is cool. But then there there's another there's four priorities of issues as the criticals that block release then there's major issues which we've agreed are pretty nasty could be severe for a particular site for a particular module or use case but aren't significant enough to say no one in the world can have a supported release of Drupal 8 yet and then there's normal and minor issues. And right now there are over 800 nearly 900 major issues which sounds pretty terrifying right like 900 nasty problems that someone could encounter with a website. A lot of these are legitimately problematic bugs and we need help to fix them. In fact a lot of people who look for ways to contribute to core they hear that they're supposed to work on release blockers because that's something that gets Drupal 8 done right and they go and look at the list of 25 release blockers and they they're just they don't know where to start because those issues move quickly they're complicated. Major issues on the other hand are a fantastic way to help because these are the bugs that you're going to encounter when you start building out Drupal 8 sites for clients when you start using Drupal 8 in your own situation. However I will also say that of those 900 issues all of them aren't necessarily relevant anymore. We triage the critical issue queue on a bi-weekly basis but the major issues we just don't have the resources to do that and some of them have been sitting around for two years three years or maybe even four years or even from the Drupal 7 cycle and might not actually be relevant anymore. So to that end we're having a sprint tomorrow and if you don't know Friday of Drupal Khan is the main sprint day there will be hundreds of people here working on Drupal core, Drupal contributed modules, Drupal testing infrastructure all kinds of things and one of the sprints we're holding is a sprint to triage the major issues which means going through all of them determining if they're still relevant making a decision about when we should solve them. So please come help with that. This is the first time we've tried something like this at a Khan during the Drupal 8 cycle so it's kind of an experiment but we have two fantastically smart sprint leads who will be there helping you both experience Drupal 8 contributors and I also just want to note even though triaging issues isn't something that you won't be creating patches for these issues you'll just be reading through them and researching them it's still a contribution that merits a commitment in the Drupal commit law. We started crediting people who do significant reviews on issues and this is a kind of significant review so I will make sure that you're credited in the commitment for the issue if you do help with that sprint. Great answer. Thank you. Let's take a question from the audience maybe. If you want to introduce yourself and your name, where you work that usually helps us a little bit. My name is Ray. I work for the International Fund for Animal Welfare which is a huge nonprofit organization. We currently use Drupal 6 and I'm in the unique position of trying to defend or at least appropriately explain why we should go to Drupal 8 versus some of the competitors like not Drupal 7 but WordPress or other and it's interesting because I'm in a room and I'm also really I like Drupal. It's sort of like preaching to the crowd but if you were to be in a sales position and say this is what Drupal 8 will really do well against the other possible CMSs out there that would be very useful for me and maybe hopefully for other people that are in the position of either selling Drupal or just using it. That's a great question. It's also a complex question obviously because there are so many different systems. The way Drupal competes against them differs from system to system but I think the way I would answer this question in general is that I honestly believe that Drupal 8 will make a huge leap forward especially compared to the other open source systems. Things like object-oriented programming, embracing symphony, fixing some of the problems that we fixed in Drupal 8 from configuration management to how caching works I think depending on your situation and your needs like sort of the robustness and the scalability of Drupal 8 I think are significantly improved compared to Drupal 7 but also compared to competitors but then also in terms of content creation, usability improvements like you mentioned WordPress but traditionally people have said that WordPress is much easier to use for content creators on Drupal 8 and so one of the things that we've done is we've sort of spent a lot of time and effort in making the altering experience of Drupal 8 much better and we've done very quick unofficial hallway testing of Drupal 8 versus WordPress and what we found is that the user experience for content creators of Drupal 8 is on par or slightly better than it was of WordPress. Now things may have changed since we've done these testing in WordPress and also in Drupal so but I do think in general you can share that we've made a lot of improvements all over the map whether it's for developers for DevOps people that need to scale Drupal 8 or people that actually have to use Drupal as a content creator and we actually have a great page that you may want to check out it's drupal.org slash drupal-8.0.0 I believe it is it's off the main page of drupal.org and you can get an overview of all of the changes sorry or slash 8. I like Holly's thing where it's like because we're nerds we have to have a URL with both a dot and a slash in it so that's fun and a hyphen too. Can I tag on to what you just said? Okay yeah because I think that was a fantastic question I think a lot of people are in that position where especially if you're on Drupal 6 the leap from 6 to 8 is going to be significant even the leap from 6 to 7 honestly is significant and so I think it is going to cause a lot of people to kind of to raise those questions as long as we have to do a crap ton of work anyway should we be looking at these other systems. So when you come back to why Drupal over CQ 5 WordPress some of these other things and that's a valid question to ask. I kind of look at a few different things. The one thing I look at is everything Dries has said is right on. I think another big piece to look at is how full Drupal 8 is as a solution. So in the past you and Dylans load Drupal and that would get you enough to make an ugly blog and then you would need to like get like 300 contributed modules to actually make it do something useful. Drupal 8 has a bunch of stuff built in out of the box. It has all the content modeling tools you need so entity reference, date module all these kinds of things are built in automatically out of the box. It also has views built in so you can do your sidebar blocks, your listing pages, all those kinds of things. I don't know of the other tools that I've looked at and I haven't looked at all of them but I've looked at a lot of them that are really geared in that way where in one product you can handle everything from modeling out how your content is going to be structured. Automatically generating you know semantic structured you know forms to enter that data in a way though that it can be output in many different formats. So not just assuming everything is going to be a web page but also outputting it as rest to be consumed by a mobile application or outputting it as something. And I know you're a non-profit but despite the fact that you're a non-profit you still have the same needs that other people do where a lot of your users are on you know mobile devices and they need to get information fast and easy. So having the mobile friendliness out of the box in Drupal 8 with the response of everything and the you know the support for some of these APIs and web services and stuff that's going to help you as well. So I would and the you know the product features themselves that come out in Drupal 8.0 aren't enough to make that case which you know other people have great features too. There's two other aspects that I think are important. One is the security team of Drupal because the security team is amazing and they cover not only the Drupal core product itself but also any official releases of contributed projects as well. And so that means like if you download an external you know like plug-in for something like WordPress that's on some developer's blog and there's no way to get you know make sure that there's a standard process for getting you know notifications about any issues that might be there. So that's actually a really big benefit that Drupal has that I don't believe any other open source or proprietary frankly solution has is that sort of central team you know handling the management of those essays to make sure that users are informed of what's going on. And I think the other thing that's really exciting about versions of Drupal past Drupal 8.0 so 8.1, 8.2 is we're entering this world where actually we can start to innovate within Drupal core pretty fast and so as we see things happening like oh wow the path auto module is amazing we can actually pull that into core in 8.1 or 8.2 or one of these six month feature releases and now that stuff is available out of the box for everyone to use and so you'll what you'll see is that Drupal 8.0 is already starting as a very full-featured CMS it's only gonna get better as time goes on and I think if you can make the leap to 8 which I know will be significant for some people that that will really set you up in a future proof way for the next years because we're not going to rewrite our thing to be oh again I hope so so that's a good thing. The other thing that I might emphasize too if you are on Drupal 6 how many people are on Drupal 6 still or have Drupal 6 sites that you're looking at yeah so a couple of things for you the first thing is that one of the release blockers to even shipping Drupal 8.0 is to make sure that all of the like really bad Drupal 6 security issues if any are addressed prior to shipping 8.0 so that is a that is a blocker is we have to make sure any if there are any highly critical or moderately critical whatever the top two severity of security issues are there can't be any of those in the private issue tracker we will not ship Drupal 8 so it's not like when Drupal 8.0 ships and three months pass and the community drops support for Drupal 6 your site's immediately gonna get compromised and horrible demons are gonna come out of your computer right like we really are trying our best to set Drupal 6.0 off into the sunset on a good stable you know foundation so that's one thing the second thing is that the core team really recognizes that importance like of how fundamental Drupal 6.0 was to the success that you see now of Drupal 8.0 or I'm sorry of the Drupal community and so you know things like the migration team has prioritized putting Drupal 6.0 to 8.0 migrations in way ahead of Drupal 7.0 to 8.0 even so like I'm sad because I have a Drupal 7.0 blog and I want to move it to 8.0 and I can't but they're really prioritizing the people who are going to be left out to make sure that they have the tools they need to move forward so that's about all I can say about Drupal 6.0 but is that helpful at all or oh yeah it's been very helpful I had one specific question about multilingual or translation stuff and it seems two years ago that you guys were doing a lot with Drupal 8.0 in in that respect and I wondered if that might be something that's not available in other CMSs that you guys also have that part I haven't evaluated so I don't know that as well I know there are other systems that do do it better than us but I think they have other weaknesses that we have so I think I think that's a little bit of a wash we do it really well and it's a lot more integrated in the Drupal 8.0 but I think you can still find systems that do multilingual better than us for now but we'll slowly kick their butts you know thank you very much I think we do it better than most others maybe with the exception of a few proprietary solutions specifically multilingual certainly better that a lot of the the main open source CMS is I think that Drupal 8.0 multilingual support is comparatively excellent yeah the other thing I'll say and feel free to go back to your chair because it's you know even standing there for a long time and I don't want to drag out his answer but one of the things that I do is I talk to industry analysts and so you know to back up for a second to weigh a lot of organizations you know by a CMS and I use air quotes here is either they go to a digital agency or a Drupal shop and you know they recommend the technology solution in the case of a Drupal shop obviously that would be Drupal but a lot of digital agencies use multiple different solutions or they go to an industry analyst and it's and they say here's all the things I want to do here's my requirements and they then take them to a process and they say you should look at these two solutions right that that's what they do and a lot of people use those organizations examples are Forrester and Gartner and many more and and so one of the things I do is I go to these organizations and I help them understand you know all of the changes in Drupal 8 and I can't say who said what but one of them said you know Drupal 8 is the biggest advancement that I've seen in the last five years in the industry that we're in obviously and so he's very excited about the things in Drupal 8 and so long answer short depending on your organization you may want to talk to industry analysts to help you identify what the best solution is and hopefully that answer will lead to Drupal so next question and by the way if other people have questions now would be a good time to to line up I think hi I'm Marcus I work mostly as a freelance consultant my question touches on something you mentioned earlier Angie about versioning and that's we're making some very big technical changes in Drupal we're changing the entire framework of how we're building it we're changing to Symphony and it's and we're changing a lot of things about the way we use namespaces and so on so there's lots of technical changes that we're we're building up and also we're talking about changing things like the way we release things and changing the versioning and I wonder if it's maybe all a little bit too much to release in one big bang and Contra authors might have a challenge as to working out with the versions backward compatibility how do I link and so on is it possible that we could consider postponing any version changes or any process changes until maybe a year after Drupal 8 is out and has had a time to to bed in and see whether or not they are actually needed it at all it's probably a question for you Dries I guess because you asked me I would say I would say that's probably gonna happen naturally anyway like I anticipate 8.1.x is gonna be more or less a bug fix release like you know maybe a few new APIs to help Triv authors move on things that they weren't able to do because oops we forgot that honeypot module needs something or whatever you know that kind of stuff I don't anticipate any really big bang changes happening in the first point release so the second point release sorry the second minor release 8.2 wouldn't be for a year after Drupal 8 anyway and that is probably when we'd start to see some like new user-facing features and things like that starts to prop up is what I'm anticipating so I think that might happen organically and naturally anyway the other thing that's gonna happen I predict is once 8.0.0 comes out everybody who's been slogging away for four years is probably gonna take an enormous vacation and so yes so vacations those are good yeah so I I actually don't if it moved too fast we'd have to address that problem I don't actually think that's a risk I actually think it's more of a risk that we burn people out and we don't end up you know rising to the you know being able to rise to the opportunity that we have here which is not to you know shift Drupal 8 with the same thing that was cool four years ago like Drupal 7 is right now so so I don't know for sure but I wouldn't be as worried because most of that stuff is just process changes anyway and we can sort of we you know we can be agile about it we can try it if it's not working we can scale it back or we can you know there's a lot of different things we can do so but that wasn't a really great answer I don't know if Jess or Dries or Alex I will also say that actually I think it makes a ton of sense and the decision is kind of decided so we have a we have a schedule a six month schedule for minor releases that it's going to start kicking as soon as we release 8.0 but I think it makes a ton of sense to switch to semantic versioning and these these faster six month releases now because what we've just done is we've just spent four years cleaning up maybe like ten years of of technical debt in a way by modernizing the code base which in a way that hopefully will allow us to innovate more quickly without breaking backward compatibility that's the big point of semantic versioning is that we add new functionality we can deprecate things we add new API's but we do it in a way that's predictable and we do it without breaking BC I don't think that we could have really done that as effectively in triple seven I think that we're in a much better position in terms architecturally in terms of what triple eight is to do that in the future and then triple nine will not the the triple nine branch won't even be open for development until we actually do think we need to break BC except for some things. Great question thank you. Hi my name is Grant Kruger I work for a foundation out of Oregon and we have a triple six site we're going to upgrade and I decided to skip seven I can't see any major benefit because I ported back all the functionality from seven and so they'll just have new ways of doing things and so I've decided to go with eight we'll start coding in about three months and everything I see suggests that eight is the only way to go right now and I guess my question is am I insane? Not for that reason. We cannot diagnose your own. It's not for wanting to use you. I mean I work for chapter three about phase two just was here talking about their launch of a triple eight site. Right now so it is viable as long as you have the team to support you in doing that. So you need developers who are involved in the core process because then they'll be aware of upcoming changes things to avoid to make like keeping up to date with the latest changes. It does seem like pay now or pay later if you pay later you pay more it's like a payday loan and also in three months time if we're not release candidates then I need a holiday. Thank you. I'm going to love in that with a couple of caveats. So I think that triple eight betas are actually more stable than the early point releases of triple seven after release but that said it is still a beta release it is still not officially supported so if you have the resources or if you have a long project that you're starting to do R&D for now and then it makes sense to start looking at the solution but if you have limited resources then you need to be aware that that it might not be the right time. Triple seven is still a fantastic release of triple if you're going from triple six to triple eight that's smart but if you're building new sites now and you need a new site within the next three to six months triple seven is still great. One thing that you won't get with triple eight is security issues are still in the public queue so if there is that there are vulnerabilities that affect only triple eight they will be filed publicly that means that anyone on the internet if they're clever and figure out that your site is on triple eight beta knows that your site is vulnerable to that buck. There also is not a supported upgrade path yet like between patches like between betas or between between patches made to triple eight core so we're not breaking stuff as frequently as we were six months ago but there's still you'll still run into situations from time to time where you if when you update your site you will something will break horribly. There is a project we've sponsored in Contrib the head-to-head project that provides those updates in Contrib but it's it's not officially supported the way that core updates will be once we get further along with this process so those two caveats should keep in mind it's a great idea but it's not for everyone and if you if you're if you have a limited budget then you should probably wait for us. Hi sorry I'm Mike there's been talk of getting a new theme into core is that possible at this stage is it possible to make it a default or is that something you know for one of the point releases afterwards? Yeah so actually it was it's a great question to be honest I don't have a quick answer on that. I haven't actually kept up with that discussion because we've been so focused on other things so I don't know where where that is actually right now if there's consensus on that or not. Maybe you guys know. The question was whether there is still an opportunity to add a new theme to core right? Do we have any of the contributors who've been working on consensus banana in the house? Scott do you have anything you'd like to say at the mic about the current status of the theme system and future themes? Thank you. So I think this is this is Kotzer. He works for Digital Kidna and his name is Scott. Thank you thank you for the intro. So my answer as one of the theme system meetingers for Drupal 8 would be not until 8 is out. Maybe after that point we could look at adding things in an 8.1 or 8.2 or something but right now right now one of the things that we're doing is just trying to I'm not going to go into detail but we've got the classy base theme in core some of you may have heard of that and that's fairly recent so we're just kind of making sure that that's good and then doing some cleanup on the non classy kind of markup and templates and that's basically all we're going to do for the 8 release but you're you know contrib can do whatever it wants. Yeah and I think in general like anything that we add now introduces risk of delaying the release even more right even if the risk is low there is risk and the the opportunity cost if you will of delaying the release you know we have to think carefully if it's worth adding this new thing versus potentially delaying the release and so for me adding a new theme would have to have a really really compelling reason and so the question would be how important is this to add it now versus adding it later and so I think that that is the core of that conversation and so I don't know where that discussion is but next question. Hi my name is Karaman German Moreno I work for Mario.org but I also do a lot of contracting work for the federal government and it's a lot of Drupal all the way since 2006 something like that it's been it's been good but it's still I feel like with this release of the Drupal 8 it comes with a lot of changes on obviously the addition of the new framework that is great it's just I'm thinking is is there any roadmap or any idea on perhaps in Henshin the way that the developers are able just to contribute back to the core as it is already kind of a little cumbersome still it's not like a straightforward process so perhaps along with all these enhancements that are coming in the Drupal 8 would it be a also good time and just to enhance all that process perhaps make it a little more modern like something like a github something out of that line. Is there any roadmap on enhancing the contributing to the core to the project? So I didn't catch quite all of that I think what I heard is are there any is there any work being done to the collaboration tools on Drupal.org to make it easier for people to contribute to core? Correct, no that's correct. Okay so I know of one thing that's a big deal and then I know there were other sessions at DrupalCon actually talking about this it's a good it's a good question so one you know one thing that always comes up is like why is Drupal using their own homegrown Drupal powered issue queue thingy thing and not just using github like every other project does and that comes up a lot and so there was a great session called issue workspaces done by the Drupal Association folks who answered that question and then also go on to describe what they plan to do to the issue queues themselves to better integrate get into what effectively amounts to centralized pull requests that are all off the same issue as opposed to github pull requests which are decentralized and kind of a mess to keep track of. So what they plan to do I'm going to try and summarize an hour long talk in like two minutes but what they plan to do is use the get namespaces feature to effectively set up each issue as its own repository behind the scene so from an end user perspective it's going to look a lot like github where there's a button that you press to say like fix this issue and then it will spin up a branch in the background that you can use and then any commits that are done end up on the branch itself they're going to put some in place editing tools in there so that if you're trying to fix a documentation bug or whatever you can just do it right in the browser you don't actually have to use get at all and essentially using the actual get based workflow behind the scenes on the issue so we no longer have to deal with patch files and stuff but they're still going to keep the old patch style workflow for people who need it and kind of run both in parallel so that's one big initiative that they're doing and there's an issue open for that I don't know that you are off the top of my head but if you go to the session node for jupycon LA it would be there where they're talking a lot about how they plan to do that as far as I know that's still on the plan for this year to start rolling out some of the functionality features of that and I'm really excited about that because it you know the way we currently use get is basically as a replacement for CVS which is what we use before get where get is a version control system but we don't actually use it like you would like we use it like most people would use a centralized version control system so there's like a canonical thing over here and then you work in your local and then you can send things back and forth this would be a lot more collaborative and a lot more using what get is actually made to do so that's actually really exciting and then I know Kathy and Calpana and Peter will land in and a couple of other people had sessions about how to make the actual contribution process easier and less steps and that kind of thing but I don't know what happened to those discussions but if one of you would like to take the mic and update that that would be excellent because that is a big barrier to entry for sure and I think as much as we can do to make it easier and more streamlined for people for sure yeah so if you want to see introduce yourself sorry I'm Kathy I'm yes CT I work for Black Mesh and my job is to help make Drupal so if you want to see the plans for improvements and the status of them I would actually recommend that you look at my talk that I gave because the slides are online as a web page and they have links to the issues and it'll be like one of the fastest ways to get to that information and it's github.com slash Drupal dash mentoring slash whatever the one that says like D.do changes to improve contributor experience. I will tweet the link. Thanks. Yeah so the tricky thing about keeping track of those kinds of things is really like how like knowing what what the issues are so you can see where we're discussing things so that's like an index of where the discussions are. The good news is that the DA staff is making improvements to how we can improve Drupal.org and also investing resources in improving Drupal.org so our contributor experience is going to be getting better like they're doing a really good job and they're dedicating resources not specifically to the issues that I picked but in general the changes there are accelerating so we can we can be smartly hopeful. Awesome thank you for the help there. And then that issue workspaces node is which maybe Jess can tweet that too. 248 8266 that's 248 8266. Awesome. Next question please. I'm Fala from the governments of Sierra Leone. I work with ministry where we develop policies and we are actually in the process of setting up policies for the government in selecting specific CMS for government website. So I want to give a recommendation but I want you to convince me how I can suggest to the government to use Drupal as the standard platform for government website without it being looked at as an anti competitive approach. Thank you. I can't take a crack at this. It's actually one of the things we've seen in other governments is that they have begun to standardize on Drupal and so I think the reason why is because Drupal is unique in the sense that it can run small websites and large websites, simple websites and complex websites and a lot of government organizations have a variety of websites that fit these different quadrants if you will and traditionally they've used they've had to use a multitude of different content management systems for example for your main website they would use you know whatever enterprise content management system and then maybe for their smaller websites you know they they couldn't use that same enterprise content management system because it just not economical like you wouldn't use Adobe CQ5 for a microsite or a small event website because it's just too expensive and so what's unique about Drupal is that it can you know scale from large to small from simple to complex and that it's probably one of the only platforms out there that you can standardize on across the board and we see that happening you know everywhere we see that happening in government for example the government of Australia they have built a distribution along with with other people there called Goff CMS into distribution of Drupal so you may want to look into that distribution and they basically created a mandate to migrate that they're not forcing everybody to migrate but they're like you know highly encouraging everybody to standardize on Goff CMS or Drupal across the Australian government and we see the same thing happening in you know commercial organizations it's not just a government thing but a lot of larger organizations that have hundreds or thousands of websites in some cases are also standardizing on Drupal because it's literally one of the only platforms that you can't standardize on so that would be my answer and then there's technical reasons as well but you know thank you no we see a pattern with dynamically type languages my name is Assad hello and we see this pattern with dynamically type languages as they're introducing partial static typing such as HHVM from Facebook and all these other platforms so how do we see Drupal going in that direction either fully or partially in the future or do we at all their purpose for it can you repeat the question I'm not sure I've got the question right so I think you asked like as as PHP 7 introduces like strong strong type things the ability to type in on scalars like strings and things are we gonna adopt that simply for Drupal 8 that won't be an option because we're gonna support PHP 5 point whatever it is when we release but it will be a 5 point release we need to dodge that bullet but I think if you look at what Drupal 8 is is doing is with respect to the way that we treat our data is that we're trying to ensure that we preserve the types that the developer intends so like with configuration we spent a lot of time ensuring that when the developer wants that institute to be an institute the moment so we've adopted like some of that practices already we will introduce it in areas where it'll help us build a repeatable and reliable system it probably won't fit for forms for example we do also do type hinting everywhere in Drupal 8 so that helps a little bit where we can say we specifically expect an entity type interface in here so you can't just throw an array of garbage in there and we'll do something so that we're taking baby steps in that area but I agree that we can't go full hog on that until we require PHP 7 as the baseline although PHP 7 looks awesome from what I've seen it's way faster than PHP 5 and it looks pretty cool hi my name is Juan I work for root stack okay we are in root stack making some experiments with Drupal 8 and there are two guys that well they came from symphony they tested Drupal 8 and trying to develop some stuff and well they they didn't agree with much stuff so they asked me some questions that takes me to think that they may not know about why some stuff were done like it's done now in Drupal 8 for example they asked me why why don't why do you don't say why don't you why you don't use the cache system of symphony and you still keep cache in the database like Drupal 7 was doing or stuff like why the plug-in system is too is so complicated stuff like that and that maybe because they don't know that they may don't know that there is so it should be a reason for that so how can I tell them or how can I show them that the reasons that the reasons that why some stuff were built the weights built in Drupal 8 so we have one really good tool for that at a very granular level like your question about why is the plug-in system the way it is or those kinds of things and that is change records which we publish for any API change we make there is a change record which I might stop talking soon and let you start talking but I'll just like say a thing so if you have a question about anything in Drupal 8 you can look this up and change records are effectively documentation of what happened in Drupal 7 how it works in Drupal 8 and then they link off to the discussions that happen to bring you the answer to that question we don't have really great documentation I'm aware of that is in a actual consumable form because it's not really fun to read like 200 issue or 200 common issues actually that's another problem they told me that they it's hard for them to find documentation but well it's beta software so yeah it can it can be expected to much documentation I think so until maybe a release candidate but I don't know if well if there is such documentation for those kind of changes well I think that's good that could be a nice tool for them to look at them so api.drupal.org actually has complete not perfect but it has documentation for all of the code all of the code documentation that's in course there and it also includes high-level topic summaries so if you go to api.drupal.org there should be and click on Drupal 8 there should be a link there for the plugin topic and that will give an overview of how the plugin system works that doesn't quite address the question of why is it so complicated is what I heard but there it does give a actually a fairly systematic overview explaining it I think there was another question there too I missed the first one yeah which was basically why are we using some parts of symphony and not other parts of symphony or why are we using this bit of symphony but not that bit of symphony when they both seem like that because they use symphony and they know some ways to do stuff with symphony and when the Drupal 8 comes no use this way not symphony way so a lot of those areas are places where not all and I'll shut up and let Alex talk I don't know why I'm talking I have a microphone in my hands a lot of those things are because symphony is a framework for developers and so the way it works in symphony is you are it's it's by developers for developers you're doing everything from the command line and your IDE and that's how things are done Drupal is has two audiences it has developers but also has site builders who click through everything and it is mind-blowing to symphony people that we for example our routing system needs to be able to tackle hundreds of paths because a typical symphony application you know you're writing a blog so you have like four URLs you have blog blog user whatever like this kind of thing whereas Drupal will expose a route for every single admin path of which there are hundreds and so I would say that that's one of the challenges that we've run into a few times with symphony is that they don't have these these sort of like constraints where we're exposing a UI for code configuration effectively everywhere that is not something that is done in these other frameworks because the other frameworks you just added a YAML file or whatever and that's how you configure things so it has to do with the fact that Drupal's target audience is very different from symphonies in order to keep the power of Drupal in that it is a tool for non-technical people to build amazing things we need to do some things that are a little bit different so that's why we had this for example subclass the routing system of symphony and not quite use exactly what they do do you have anything to add to that though? Yeah generally Drupal is more complex than symphony because it's a product and symphony itself is a framework and we've built a framework on top of symphony where we use a lot of what a lot of the good stuff that they've done but we've also got some of our own ideas with a specific reference to the question that you asked you asked about why don't we use the symphony cache system well caching is quite application specific we've had to introduce like the masses of work in Drupal 8 to bubble up cache tags and when Liz has done incredible work on that and if we've leveraged the symphony cache system to work with the way that it works with the request that would have been much harder to do because we're building a product that's using our own framework we can do that so we've leveraged the parts which work for us and we've chosen not to when we need something specific for the product. Thanks a lot. Thank you for the question. Go for it. Matt 2000 shout out card.com so yesterday somebody wearing Larry Garfield's vest. Larry Garfield's vest it's a joke right okay sorry he gave a presentation on saying no and you know he made the point that if you try to be the jack of all trades you're the master of none and I noticed today everyone kind of equivocated on the multilingual question whereas you know six years ago or so I think Drupal was clearly the leading CMS for multilingual totally like crap the bed with that question schnitzel could you go up to the mic and after he's done and talk about how awesome Drupal 8's multilingual okay so multi multilingual is not the point it's just just an example of an area where maybe we've fallen behind because we're doing so many other things right so my question is the opposite of what others have asked you know how can I sell Drupal for my projects my question is what is a web application that you would say Drupal is not the right tool for Google.com sorry we all want to alright so just thinks Drupal is good for everything no no I would say that that there's always you know there's two factors when you're picking what solution you're going to use there's what resources you have and what their expertise is and then there's your particular application and I think that you know a lot of us have jobs where our job is evaluating what the correct solution for something is so if you have a site and and WordPress works great and you have a team of people who who know WordPress really well and they and that's the solution that works for you that's awesome right use it do whatever works in your budget but you know let you know evaluate your requirements if you if you want to build if you have a complex like data modeling use case and then you start to build it in WordPress then you might find later that you wish you'd chosen a different solution but I agree but yeah so it's just to echo what Jess said it's about evaluating your requirements but more importantly than evaluating what your current requirements is also to have some thought for the future where do you want to be in two three is fine what you want your application to do and then look at which solution can satisfy when you do that if you look at if you expect your application to grow and have to my favorite answer to this is Drupal is for clients who don't know what they want because you if anybody have clients like that some people like yes but they're sitting right next to me if your client knows exactly what they want and a better tool is a better fit for that do that if your client doesn't know what they want even if a better tool looks like it might be a good fit for that Drupal's probably maybe you have to it depends on the client but like you know I don't know how many times when I was a freelancer I got into a situation where a client thought the only thing they wanted was a brochure wear site so for that I would say like nowadays be whatever Sculpin or something like that and then you come to find out well actually we also want a shopping cart for that thing oh by the way can it do slide shows and is there a wiki and stuff and in Drupal that's like four checkboxes kidding but you know what I mean it's essentially you know we wrote a book literally unlike how to do like 15 different use cases with just checking checkboxes with no code and and Drupal is fantastic for that but I think if it is a situation where you clearly know the requirements and you should always pick the right tool for the job and Drupal is the right tool for a lot of jobs but definitely not for all of them so I just want to point out that we have about five minutes left in this session so I think that we have one more person that has a question maybe we could take potentially one more question after that and then we should wrap it up no no no we'll take his question then seriously can you oh actually that's a good idea okay hi I'm Tamba and I work for Accenture I have a question for the panel and it's a question that I've been thinking about for a while I know Drupal great it is great and it's focused on headless mobile and all these great things and let's assume I'm a customer and I really love all these good features of Drupal 8 and I want to use Drupal 8 but I have a use case we are in I have my app it's built in let's say any other framework example Java based app and I just want to use Drupal as a front end instead of use Drupal as a backend but I want to use Drupal 8 and not 7 and I want to use it right now what would you recommend boy that's quite a list of questions so you know what you want that's great yes so the question I think if I can just repeat it back is I want to do headless development so I want a custom front end that is not Drupal at all but I want to talk to a Drupal no no I want to reverse that I want to reverse what you just said you want to use Drupal as the front end but something else is the back end something else is the back end that have API is exposed and I want to suck those API those the content out of that back end and use Drupal to create update and delete and also display as my front end because I just like Drupal and I want to use Drupal okay yeah so Drupal 8 has a couple of things that can let you do that we have a web services API via guzzle which is an external PHP library that would let you call out to if the thing that you're integrating with exposes web services you can integrate with them in Drupal views module also has the ability to use custom back ends I don't think I'm lying about this because I'm pretty sure I did this with a custom sequel table one time so that would be one approach I guess I haven't done a lot of this work in my professional life but I know a lot of people are doing that even with Drupal 6 and 7 so I don't think it would be not impossible but I don't know that Drupal 8 did a lot to make that I've seen it and just just to add before you as I don't want to store any of this information in the Drupal yeah yeah I understand yep so I've seen this I've seen is actually in in quite a few cases one example is Puma.com as an example it's a large e-commerce website you know they use a they use demand where in this specific case for their commerce piece and so demand where stores a lot of data stores you know has the PIM system the product information management system which has all the information about the products they also manage the users in this case so when you sign up the user account is actually managed in demand where and they use Drupal to build a very rich you know digital experience on top of the commerce backend and so they store all of the data in the back end the data is syndicated into Drupal so sometimes Drupal keeps a copy of the data but it's not the canonical version and then you know does the does its thing to visualize the data in very creative ways because that's typically where e-commerce systems fall behind you know they don't have strong content management capability so a very common use case in commerce and their solutions I do that today not sure if that answers our question but it is it is done frequently not in Drupal 8 though will you recommend Drupal 8 for that today sorry would you recommend I use these use cases get much easier in Drupal 8 yes I think Drupal 8 will be able to do that much more efficiently and you know faster so I would recommend that okay but with all the caveats that we talked about earlier about early adoption yes I just like to add sometimes you could put like a smart reverse proxy in front of your headless Drupal and the other RPCs and just make the decision which one it should go to and probably solve that problem so do we want to have schnitzel talk about yes schnitzel would you be able to step up to the mic and correct my egregious error from earlier where I was like I don't know multi-lingual yeah so can you make that so well basically what I say all the time in Drupal 7 you need to install 29 modules to have a complete translatable Drupal site and in Drupal 8 core it ships out of core so there are four modules to install them and that's all you need and you can translate everything you ever see do you have any information on how Drupal 8's multi-lingual capabilities compared to like other systems look how I have turned this into I reversed the Q&A so so there's one thing that I can tell you definitely that is missing so first of all you can translate Drupal 8 you can translate everything what is missing in 8 right now there is no translation management so there is no real way out of the box with core that you can send your translation somewhere else and let someone the else translate without contrip and I think that's a really important thing and when we talk about Drupal 8 as a product because especially in enterprise it's really important to not only have a translatable system to also manage the translations they're really great contrip systems there is a lingo tech that does stuff there's team GMT which is a whole system about that and there are others as well and but I think at one point it will be important for us as Drupal to provide that because that's definitely somewhere we're lacking behind all the proprietary softwares as Therese talked about okay so it sounds like what you're saying is in core that sort of outsourcing translations pieces missing however even in Drupal 7 with contrip you can easily achieve parity with other systems or or surpass it correct yes great thank you thank you all right so unfortunately we're out of time I know you have a question but maybe we can answer it later I think many of us will be at the trivia night or just at the closing session but I'd like to thank my fabulous panelists and core committers they work incredibly hard and so you know big thank you to them and as well as for being here I think the next thing is the closing session if you guys are interested in that we will see you there come to the sprints tomorrow if you want to help with or learn about Drupal 8