 So this doesn't have, so I really need to maneuver her into Zoom meetings and then she just runs away. Perfect, what a fabulous introduction to the amazing Deep Tran and her beautiful cat, Viola. Viola, yes, like talking to you. Hello, and this is my, my mission. Okay, okay. Oh, he, he, there you are. She, she is, she is a cashmere cat and loves nothing more than a Zoom meeting. So she will be back to show off in front of the camera. Hi, you're here. Thank you so much for doing this. Oh, thanks for asking. It's so weird. I've only ever interviewed you. And so there's gonna be a fun little switcheroo that we're doing today. It is a little bit of a switcheroo. I am in no way your equal at interviews or investigative and thoughtful journalism. So this is gonna be just me going, how do you do with the things you do? I'm not doing either of those things right now. Well, that is why it is both a weird time, but also a really interesting time to talk about the kind of strange collaboration between all of us. I mean, I'm not making a lot of theater right now. There's less theater for you to do what you do so well and writing and thinking about it and offering criticism and perspective, but there is, it's still out there and it's still of us. And so I wanted to, here we go. So I wanted to talk with you about kind of since we're all in versions of pause, maybe taking some time to think about how we are related to each other, what collaboration looks like between journalists and critics and playwrights and theater makers and aren't you a theater maker as well as I am? And all of these kind of great questions, but knowing that our audience is going to be a lot of theater makers, students of theater and practitioners. Yeah, let's aim our kind of conversation towards what might be helpful to those folks. Well, let me just tell everybody, this is Deep Tran, she's amazing, she's a writer of theater, all sorts of things, think pieces, criticism, theater journalism, interviews of theater artists has worked at Broadway.com and American Theater Magazine and all the things. Your piece for, it was Slate, the Miss Saigon piece that was so amazing. That was actually for American Theater, but a few people picked it up, so that was fun. Yeah, that was such a necessary and vital conversation and your wonderful podcast with Jose, token theater friends is just delightful and important as well. So I mean, I would just love to know how you got to doing this. How did you become a writer focusing on theater and yeah, like school and interest and who were you as a 10-year-old and what is that? Oh my God, it's so weird being, because I just realized that 2021 is gonna be my 10-year anniversary in New York. Yeah, right? And it made me, and as I've progressed in this career, I've gotten more of that similar question of like, how do you do this? How did you get started, that kind of thing? And I'm just like, wait, I'm the person? Wait, I used to be the one asking these questions. How did I become the person? You're the person. And I'm really a couple of that because I feel like journalism, Oh, she has, oh, hairball, one second. Great, totally valid. We're gonna look at my cat for a moment. Hello, Mitten. What do you think about the state of American theater? She has very few opinions about theater. She has opinions about lots of other things. I'm sure that's never happened before. I just needed to like get her off the bed if she does the correct task. And it has to be done now. You cannot delay. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, so what are we talking about? Okay. Talking about how you became you and how that is like a strange reality for you to be in that position of kind of wisdom and yeah, mentorship. The funny thing is I always, like the reason the whole reason I got started in journalism is because I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to write novels, but I know you don't actually get paid to do that, to do that, to do creative writing. And so I thought, oh, how can I make money as a writer? That's, I just wanna be a writer. And I realized journalism could be a pathway to do that. That was in 2007 before the big crash. And I feel like the recession kind of started the death knell of journalism as a thing that people pay for. And I feel like this time also amplifying that. But that's not the topic, I got off topic there. But I don't think it's off topic. I think this is part of when we talk about coming out of this and coming back, it doesn't just mean let's get shows on stages. It means let's have the community of thinkers and makers, including journalists and critics being a part of that. That is an essential part of the ecosystem of this art form. And I think it's a great thing. I actually haven't heard that said, really. It's like that's part of what we mean by saving the arts and bringing the arts back is all of the players and all of the corners of this industry that complete the geometry of it. That's a lot of metaphors all the ones. You're better at this than me. Oh no, I feel like someone who's the most prettiest playwright in the country. I feel like you're, and I'm sure if it's on a stage, you're a lot better if you have other kids. I can handle a stage. I can handle a stage. Exactly. Better metaphors than I am. But anyway. But how's theater, how did you get to theater? Cause it's one thing to be like a journalist, but why theater journalism? How did you find that? Okay, so the thing of my career is basically, it's all accidental and things just kind of open themselves up to me and I just kind of follow. So how that got started was, I was an English major on undergrad and I love visual arts. I think I was an art history major too. And I thought, oh, I love the arts. Maybe I'll just write about the arts and then it'll be a great way to me be for me to be around really creative people. So that will kind of feed my own creativity and writing about the arts is a lot less depressing than writing about politics or any of the other terrible things that are happening in the world. Like when I told my mom I was going to be a journalist, she was like, don't be one of those journalists who goes overseas and covers wars. Oh God. It's good advice mom. Yeah, exactly. Like write, but you know, don't do anything dangerous. That sounds like a mom piece of advice. Exactly. And so I started writing about visual arts and then that kind of expanded itself to writing about performance because once you cover, you don't really, in most journalistic outlets, you don't really specialize in a thing. You kind of like hover around to different things. And so I was a specialist in visual arts but then I started writing more about performance because writing about performance is a lot more fun for me than writing about paintings or sculptures because usually when you're writing with visual arts, you just have the one source. But with theater, like I talk to actors, like I talk to directors, like I talk to choreographers, like all kinds of different people all came in to make the thing. And that was just so fascinating to me, especially as someone who really doesn't like people, like a bunch of people wanted to come together to make the thing. Like why? Why? That's a crazy idea. That's so much I'm gonna spend together. Why do you like people? Too many people. Too many people. So there's a psyche that as an introvert is really fascinating to me. And so I kind of enjoy writing about performance the most. Yeah. And then I'll just give like the really short version of this. 2010, I went to journalism school because the thing about journalism, which is kind of similar to theater, that it's a similar intersection in that if you don't know anyone who has a background in the field, it's really hard to like get into the field. Right. Like it's kind of nepotistic, kind of like you need to have connections in order to even get your foot in the door. And I'm like, I come from an immigrant background. Like no one in my family did this. I'm the one person in my family who actually has a creative career and they still don't understand what it is that I do, versus what my sister does. Who is like a pharmacist or a lawyer. Like that's easy to figure out. Like what do you know, right? Like how do you make money doing that? And my family was a tiny bit similar when I started doing theater. My dad's mom was like, well, because he was like, is there anybody artistic in our family? And she was like, well, your great uncle sold vacuum cleaners. And I was like, is that, that's the closest we have? All right, great. I mean, it is an art to like try to sell people things. Yes. That is apparently the same thing as theater. Sure. You know what? We're all hustling. Look, you've got to hustle a vacuum. You've got to hustle on the new American tragedy. Yeah. Okay, great. Anyways, you were saying, so an immigrant background, people were in your family like, what, how do you make money this, what? Okay. And I'm like, oh, you can get a degree in this. And so if you can get a degree in this, and that means like there's going to be, there's people there who tell you how to get into the thing. And this, and this kind, and this, I'll go into a tanger right now, which is a lot of young people now ask me, how do you start being a journalist? And I just say, you just start. You don't really, most journalists, like you, we kind of just dive in and learn how to, what the building blocks of the form is at the same time that we're doing it. Like when I started writing articles for my school newspaper, I didn't really understand what, how you structured a story. I learned how to do that. I learned how to interview people just by doing a lot of it and learning, oh, these are the kind of questions you ask if you want to get natural good response to people. Yeah. I mean, that's similar to playwriting. And you kind of can read as many plays as you want and watch as many plays as you want, but it is a different thing when you sit down and go, okay, now I'm going to make one of these things that's different than watching it. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, I got to learn how to tell actors how to do this and or for them to give me what it is I need for this play. Yeah. Like it's all about learning how to communicate with people. But so in school, was it a two-year program? Was it a three-year program? It was a year and a half, but it was very expensive. So probably expensive as your average two-year theater program. Excellent, fabulous. Great. I mean, are you glad you went? I'm glad I went in that it gave, it's how I got hired at American Theater, which was, I did not see a job posting. It was an alumni of the program emailing a bunch of us saying this magazine is hiring, I interned for them, they're great people. Here's the contact. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, I will say I do get a lot of questions about that. I don't know if you do as well about grad school, should I go, do I go get a higher degree, and I wish it was not as expensive as it was. And maybe that will change. Maybe Elizabeth will help us off. But I do think it's worth it. Yeah, and I have really mixed feelings. It's really about, I knew exactly what I needed from the program, which was I need to come out of this with a pathway to employment and I need skills so that I could become a more valuable perspective employee for a publication. Because being a freelance journalist, you get paid at the most maybe like $500 an article. And you have to chase down people to get paid for work. And so it's incredibly hard to build a career as a freelance journalist. So the ways to be, the pathways to longevity in this industry is like you need to be with an institution, which is really important because there's just fewer and fewer opportunities. And so, you know, why tell people the way to get started is to just, you just need to just cold email a lot of people asking them if they will let you write for them. Yeah. Which is like, and the ironic thing these days is like a lot of publications actually need content because, you know, content drives traffic. And unfortunately, the internet made it so that the only content that matters is things that drive a lot of traffic. Yeah. Which is a whole other, what? Yeah. Which is, when you talk about theater coverage which doesn't drive a lot of traffic, but it's still very valuable to like a very passionate few amount of people. It's just like, there's just certain things you can't measure, but that's another, that's another thing. That is another thing, yes. Clickability or click baiting, whatever that word is. Exactly, exactly. And so, and so the thing is publishers need content. The thing is they don't have a lot of writers on staff anymore because companies realize, oh, the most expendable people when we're out of money are writers. And you, and there's so many people who wanna write and so we don't have to pay you benefits, we'll just use like a shed ton of freelancers. Can I first on this? Sure. Okay, yeah. So there's actually a lot of opportunities if you're just interested in writing for people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Without getting benefits. And so for me as someone who's been in this career for almost 10 years, like I always struggle with giving advice and telling people about my career because I've had a very privileged one and I've always worked for an institution. Yeah. And that's not the case. That's not the common pathway for a lot of people now. So I'm trying to give, I'm trying to give people as many like tools as, and to set their expectations. And so they don't come in expecting their path, their career to look like mine because it's not like journalism career can look like anything. And unfortunately, you have to kind of build the blocks for yourself. You can't. I mean, would you recommend people starting a blog? I mean, you know, everyone has a blog, but like doing that kind of to go, here's how I write, give a couple of examples. I mean, I think as a theater fan and practitioner, the more people write about theater, the stronger the field is, and the more we talk about this thing, we love the stronger that thing is, without doing a ton of work for free, but all of us have to do work for free before we kind of get that first paycheck. Would you recommend people kind of doing little hot takes about theater stuff? No, I would actually recommend people one, get a social media and get a Twitter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Twitter is accessible, but at the same time, it is really, it's a great way to contact information of different editors and outlets because that leads me to the next thing, which is get contact information of editors so you can email them to ask to write for them. And you know, people pay, they don't pay a lot, but when you're young, like $100 for an article, like really helps you realize, oh, like my work has value, because I'm not a fan of giving away your work for free. And I'm actually, and I'm a fan of having someone else read your work and give you feedback on it because then it helps make your work better. And a good amount of my career has been editing other people's work, which has helped me figure out what makes an article work and readable. And it also like helps me, I'm hoping it's a way of me paying some things forward so that I can kind of teach people like how to be better writers or give people guidance because guidance is not something that is really common as a journalist these days. Yeah, that kind of mentorship, that's so critical. So let's pivot to, if it's all right, talking about kind of how theater journalists and theater critics, you know, kind of, once this thing is over, it'll be a new world and we'll have to get together and Zoom again and talk about that once we know it. A little bit about what that, how that is, but I mean, in the past 10 years of your career, how have you felt in terms of this relationship between what you do and what playwrights do? Like how do you, I know you've done a lot of interviews with writers, certainly at American New Magazine and how do you kind of, what is the ecosystem that we both share and how does that look to you? It's funny, as a journalist, I have a perception of what it is that I do but I know that other people, other people place their expectations on me about what they think I should do. And so for me, it's always like a really interesting, like balancing act slash negotiation because I sometimes, I feel like my career, my job has like different facets to it. Some part of it is like, people need me to cover their shows so that it creates buzz, it less, more people know about it. Like basically I sometimes feel like a glorified publicist in that way. Yes, yeah. I think everybody in theater would be like, yep, that sounds right. Yeah, especially when someone comes with me and they give me the how they want the story written, they give me who they want me to talk to. And so it's just like, am I writing this or are you writing it? I'm sure a lot of marketing directors at theater would be like, I can write it if you just want me. Exactly, exactly. Oh, I have the perfect writer for you, for this article. And it's like, okay, we have to, like arts journalism is kind of different from like politics because like you can't really have an antagonistic secretive relationship because you need access. Yeah, that's exactly right. So like the kind of, here's a show that by writing about it, more people know about it, hopefully that drives tickets and conversation about it, that part of it. Yeah, that part of it. And then when I started, when I wanted to branch out from that at American theater and started writing more critically about the field and I had things that were really bothering me about the field, which was like, it's lack of diversity, how it loved to cast white people as Asians. Like that was really weird. Like someone should write about that. And someone who's Asian should write about that. Or like it's practice of like underpaying people. Can we, it's like, there are these juicier stories I wanted to write about. And then I, in an American theater magazine, not to disparage the publication or the publisher, there was just like, there was a little hiccup because one, we never covered critically, the field critically in that way. And also what would happen if we did? What would that mean for like our business model, which is like dependent on theater companies? What would that mean for like our readership? Would our readership follow, would there be a readership for this? Do people actually want to talk about this? Or would they rather it just stay under their surface? Cause just make everyone really uncomfortable. And so like, and so that's what happens. That's the downside of being really close to the people you cover, because then you're also kind of hesitant to look at them critically. And so that's why like even now, like I'm not really close friends with a lot of people in the industry because like there are certain things about the industry that still really bother me. And I really want to be able to talk really about it. And it's really hard to do that if you feel like you're going to like personally hurt someone that you know. But isn't that kind of tough love? Like that's what we should be doing. I mean, that's what I've loved so much about what you've done. Well, certainly with you and the token theater friends that you're doing with Jose. I mean, that has been I think really important. And I mean, obviously you're Miss Saigon piece drawing attention to yellow face and that. I mean, that's just so important. And it seems to have changed. I don't think you can really get away with doing Miss Saigon with white actors now, can you? Or if you do like beware, because somebody's going to put that out there. I mean, it seems like that has worked in some way, which is great brava and congratulations to you. Cause what important work. And a lot of us doing the theater don't have the platform that you have been. It seems like in that case certainly you used it to great success and like changemaking. Right, but like looking back on it now is definitely the right thing, the right instinct to have. But at the time it was just a lot of really difficult behind the scenes conversations. Like I cried at the office a lot. Oh man. You're in different parts of my career just because like, you know, I'm really passionate about the story and the story needs to be out there, but we may not be able to run it. And like as a journalist, like I've written things where it's just never seen a lot of day. Oh, that must hurt so bad. Yeah. Yeah, like in that, you know, I'm sure with the playwright, you know, like you've written plays. Totally. Yes. Cause you know, that one's not ready for it. Yep. Yeah. I mean, gosh, that's so interesting because I do think that is, it's, I think now, Dominique Warsaw wrote something on some social media platform about how maybe this is a chance to like not go back to the way it used to be, you know, get the art form back on its feet, of course, but maybe there's different gatekeepers now. Maybe there's different bars to entry. Maybe we don't have the same, the same, you know, business as usual that we did. And you know, to a lot of what you're talking about, have these hard conversations more publicly and say like, no, let's, these three plays, let's not do them anymore. I don't know if we need to do them anymore. Oh, we don't need to be hiring sexual predators, but... Yeah. But no, we're not. Like that's the next phase, I feel like that's the next phase like the theater industry, like really taking a glance at itself and realizing, oh, there's a lot of problems with the way we do business and the people we choose, whose voices we choose to amplify at the expense of other people. Yeah. And, but no one's, but there's been progress on some conversations, but like such as with me too, like there's not, there hasn't been like that big field of recognizing with that. We know it's all there. Yeah. Yeah. But how important, I mean, this is in the strangeness of this time, maybe that strangeness kind of the fire, the forest fire has cleared the way to some new growth to use the tired metaphor. Yeah, I'm hoping so too. I mean, granted, I was like debating whether or not I wanted to write that kind of piece of like where did it go from this point? But then at the same time, I'm just, these, it's like we're in the middle of a pandemic. And, you know, I don't wanna subtree anyone who has written those kind of pieces, but I just kind of, I don't feel like it's responsible because when you're in the middle of something, like you can't, you're still in the forest. There's no way to gain perspective right now because you're still in the middle of the forest. Yeah. Now, how are you in terms of being in the middle of the forest? So there are some outlets for theater, all of these streaming things, audio plays, stuff like that. Do you, have you experienced any of those? Do you want to? Do you like that medium? Are you like, what's your kind of, what are you enjoying any of those? You're like, nah, not so much right now. And I've been consuming some of it. Like my job at Broadway.com, like we did a big, Benefit performance for the actors fun. And so it was just like a great way, it's been a great way to just see performers in like their natural habitat without like the artifice and the filtering that kind of comes with the medium sometimes. Yeah. And so I've really been enjoying the rawness of everything and just, it's yes, it's really, some of it's really messy. And you know, it's not like a, it's like I completely replace the art form. But as someone who's like, who's advocating a lot for access and for letting different, like lower income people into the theater, making theater cheaper and more accessible for different kinds of people because it's just too expensive. And it's seen as seen as elitist. I feel like, you know, you're tweeting about this Lauren. Like, I feel like now's a great way to figure out how we can amplify this art form for a bigger audience. Especially because, you know, I was reading like my governor Andrew Cuomo was saying, like we're going to need to like reopen society in stages, which made me realize, oh, then theater is probably going to be like the last stage of it just because the art form itself, you need people in close quarters with each other and you can't right now. So how can the art form change itself? And so I've been really actually been comforted by the fact that so many people like you, you want to create and you want to figure out like how to create for the restriction right now. And so I'm really excited, hopefully after this, that we will like streaming theater won't be like a rare entity. Like it can live right next to the live theater. Yeah, I love that idea. See, I just think that's so exciting. Cause honestly, I mean, I think about my theater going habits changed as soon as I had kids because sometimes getting out the door to get to that eight o'clock show is super easy. Everything works fine. Everyone's fed and sleeping and it's okay. And sometimes it is a total disaster. And I actually don't know until like five minutes before I'm supposed to go and thinking about having infants and nursing at three in the morning and thinking, I would love to be watching a play or part of a play. And I can't watch most, I can watch 20 minutes of some Shakespeare from the national hell. Yes, I want that. That would be a thank you. Oh my God. And being able to kind of take theater with you and having it more on demand, which is interesting. Cause my favorite thing about live theater is that it's not on demand that you come together in real time, real space, real bodies, sharing air and sharing air now is a little scary. Exactly. Not so much, but how can we iterate? How can we move, be agile and move quickly and don't like wait? Cause there's a couple of folks out there going like, well, let's just wait and see what happens. I was like, the pandemic is not waiting. Shelter in place is not waiting. And if theater can't respond quickly and hopefully and fully, then what are we doing? The point of theater is to like respond to what's happening in the moment. Like it's all in cost during a performance and you have to like factor that into the performance. Yeah. And so what's been really, so the funny thing is, the thing I like least about theater is actually being, having to be in the room with an audience because as a person who doesn't really, who really doesn't like people, I'm just like, you all are in my space. I am not enjoying this experience of sitting in this house, especially when you get to off, off Broadway and it's in a seats are like all squished in together and you barely have any leg room. It's like being on an airplane. Yeah. It's like 40 people right next to each other. And you're like, there's definitely only one exit and there's people between me and that exit. Exactly. We're all gonna die. I'm sorry. It's just, it's over. It's over. Give up. But, so what I love most about theater is the live aspect of it of like, okay, they're giving me the scenario and I'm gonna, and I like seeing people figure out how to make me think this thing was happening in front of me. I like like the challenge, like the mental gymnastics of that and that's really interesting to me. And so I don't know how you solve this problem, but at the same of bringing that kind of liveness, I feel like, what we're doing now, like Zoom, I feel like that's a way to do it of like, oh, this person's like, it's kind of like watching an Instagram live video. Like, oh, this person's right in front of me and they're gonna figure out how to do something. Yeah. And like, I watched, you know, Kelly O'Hara singing a Stephen Sondheim song like right on the live YouTube feed. I'm just like, is she gonna hit the notes? She hit the notes. Oh my God, that is so amazing. And like, it was still the same feeling. Oh, this thing is happening right in front of me. Yes, we're not in the same room together, but I'm still getting something of that energy. And yeah, yes, we're not gonna, you can't have like the Cougar Fiatra and all the fun little effects, but maybe in the future we can figure out how to do that. But I feel like now's a great time to just really test some things out that we couldn't test before because the industry was just too busy, you know, doing business as usual. Yeah, there was one way to do it. And now we're like, okay, well, that one way is not anyway now. So how do we iterate? And of course, I mean, shouldn't have to be stated, but of course it's not the same thing as live theater. Of course it's those things. And what if we, my whole point was, what if we stopped thinking them as the same thing or trying to be the same thing? They're just different things. They do different things. And the fact of how beautifully imperfect and bear these, you know, Cynthia, Rivo and Shoshana B. in singing the Prince of Egypt song, I was like, y'all are made, all of the feels were felt. All of the feels were felt. And like the angle was a little wrong and the lighting wasn't even, but it worked. And it's kind of the struggle of imperfection is part of what makes it so valuable and meaningful. And, you know, we're gonna get better at this as we go along. And there will be liveness and there will be the tension of will it work and all of that. But I just think like if artists can't iterate and innovate, then like, pass the mic because like there are some of us who are totally ready to. So let's not, let's put any blocks in the way. While of course taking care of all the actors and making sure people are paid fairly. But I do think one of the biggest things that you brought up instantly was accessibility. And this solves a lot of that. And part of, on the other side of this, maybe we've made a lot more theater fans because people just got five minutes of it on their phone and were like, oh, that feeling is a new feeling. I like that feeling. Where do you get that feeling? Oh, at the theater? I will join you. Yeah. And it's like, oh, this thing is only like, like 10 bucks. Like, and if you get it on your phone versus, you know having to like pay like $100 to try to get into its theater because, you know, I get a lot of free show tickets but I do know how much things cost. And every time I have to like look up recommending shows to people, I'm like, okay, I know. I know it's 80, but it's really amazing. It is so good. I know. You're right. How much it costs. I was like, I wish I just had a video like I could show you. Yeah. And then maybe it can convince people. That's such a good point. That they want the live version of it too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause that is a great point. I didn't think about that part of your job of going like, this show is great. Do this show. Part of, if it is 80, $100, $200. You know, there was that like cache of being like have you seen Hamilton yet? And what they're really saying is like how much did you pay to see Hamilton? Yeah, you are the privileged few who could afford a couple of hundred dollars. Yeah, up to like some thousands of dollars, if you know. So yeah, I think there's so much good that it does. And if we stop thinking about as competing with the live form, I think it'll honestly, honestly, if you give stuff away people will pay for it later. I really do believe that if, that's part of what like the national theater and the globe and all of these places giving the shows away for a certain amount of time, I am now a dedicated fan of the national theater. Their performances have, I am shook. I'm excited. I am the different kind of thing. Maybe that's what it looks like. God man, public funding. Yeah, yeah. And I've really been loving like all of these different theater companies on a country making videos of their shows available just because like Victory Gardens is going to put fun home up. And I'm like, I've never seen a Victory Gardens show. And I've always wanted to see a Victory Gardens show. And now finally I can't and I don't even have to put pants on. Like this is like my perfect moment right here. That'd be great. Because think about even as theater journalists if you could review plays all across country. I mean, this is what I want. I want to be a paying subscriber to every major theater in America. And I can if I can stream a show or two a season that they make available. I will pay for a streaming subscription to the Denver Center and theaters in Chicago and Atlanta and you know, yes. Please sign me up. I'm down. Because the reason like Broadway is a is seen as like a global industry and brings people in from around the globe is because of the Tony Awards. Yes. And it's because it's because they are streamed which are streamed. It's like, oh, a 10 year old will like see like a performance of you know, Hamilton at the Tony Awards. And then be like, oh my God, this is what I want to do with my life. Or I want to go see this show. I had that experience as a kid. Like that's what most people's first experiences of this art form is, is not live. It's all virtual. And so it's like, think of things as competition as like really a capitalistic model which I'm really surprised that all these like nonprofit, you know, cooperative teamwork people are like, that's the first instinct. Yeah. And that's like, it's a good point. The Tony's, it's a streamed thing. Hello. We're already doing it. We're already doing it. And that's like, we're always a multi-million dollar industry because it's able to get audiences that are not just local. Like 60% of a Broadway house is filled with tourists. Yeah. And so like, well, one of like other theaters around the country could figure out how to get also big audience. And so like, you know, like a lot of people are like, I don't know, I don't know. Figure out how to get, also get like audiences that aren't just the local audiences. Like, yes, amazing. Theater is local. But at the same time, like you, there's untapped potential. And Broadway HD already has a platform for it. I like that platform. I really enjoyed that. I, you know, and the PBS great performances that much ado, oh, that was so good. Mm-hmm. I mean, I made my kids watch some of that. I was like, y'all just sit down and get your damn Shakespeare. It was really good. Yeah, that's how you build people. And also, I saw that one live and I got rained on for 30 minutes straight. And so not having to see that one live and get rained on is- And be soaking wet. And yeah, be soaking wet during is, you know, that's something that doesn't happen if you're watching it at home. It's interesting, because I worked with Audible, of course, and do, they don't do, of course, video performances, but- The audio performance. Yeah, and it's so interesting because there was a lot of people- How much did you play, by the way? Well, thanks so much. I appreciate it. I love that one. But what was really cool is we would, because they released the audio play version at almost on opening night, then you would have this crossover, actually. People were hearing it. And if you lived close enough to New York and be like, you know, I do wanna go see the amazing Kate Mulgrew and this and the amazing Francesca Faradani. Hell yeah, let's go. And I know enough about it because I've heard some of it or all of it to go like, yeah, this shows for me. And I know my mom would love it and my cousin's gonna, I'm gonna take my cousin and y'all let's go for real. And then for people who don't live near a theater, they get to experience the great Kate Mulgrew and the great Francesca Faradani as well. So it kind of seems like a win-win, but anyway, we're gonna figure it out. Yes, yes, we will. We're gonna make it anyway, because that's what we do. Yeah, I find it really, because right now I find it really dangerous to be telling people what they should or shouldn't do while they're in quarantine just because people respond to trauma and grief in different ways. And for some people it may just be like me, like just making a lot of food and not really doing a lot of consumption right now. Or like for you, it may be creating things because that's the best way that you can feel a process where it is that we're all feeling right now. And so like I'm really curious to see like, I don't want, and I wanna put, like I find it unhealthy to like put a stopper on how people are processing. Agreed. Yeah, cause like, I don't know, you do you. Like this is the ultimate you do you time. Exactly, I don't have to pay for any of it. So why am I gonna accept this? Why am I gonna sit back and criticize it? It's free, people are trying a thing. It's irresponsible to really stop, you wanna stomp that out because it's basically saying, oh, you can't do the thing that makes you feel better right now. Yeah, yeah, anyone who's saying that is like, definitely wrong. So, which is actually what I'm not actually writing at the moment, just because like it's, it's been a conscious decision for me because like my career is just like, okay, every week you gotta make content. You always have to hustle for everything. And right now I just really wanna sit back and just let and just sit with all of it and just be consumed by all the feelings that everyone is feeling. And then maybe when we're close to being out of it, like then some kind of, that is when hopefully the brilliant thoughts will start turning again. Definitely. But I actually don't feel, it's like, I feel like as journalists, we always feel a need to like respond to conversation as a way of trying to put, control it or as a way for, to like establish our own relevance. And right now I am okay with not being relevant. Yeah. I think, I mean, I haven't really been doing much creative writing. I mean, I just started writing a thing. The only stuff I've been able to write is stuff that I knew I was gonna have to write a long time ago. Anyway, it's been on my docket. Gotta get that draft in. It's not the play, the thoughtful play about now because how the hell are you gonna write that now? And I'm having trouble writing anything about now that is not, like I wrote an op-ed and these classes and these interviews have been such a light for me because I think in the pause I wanna talk about theater. I'm not able to make it right now or even make the beginnings of it, but to talk about it and to remind myself, like, oh yeah, that thing is great. That's a great thing. Seems good and helpful. Yeah. I like dreaming about what you want the feel to look like because I've been thinking a lot about, like I'm seeing all these theater companies, like having to lay off a furlough people, like I'm a furlough person, so I feel the pain of not having that stability at the moment. And so like what I'm really hoping and I was gonna write something and then I thought, you know what? We're like in the middle of this and I don't really know how I'm gonna feel like a couple of weeks or a month about this. So I'm just not gonna give into my feelings right now because when you give into like really harsh feelings, you kind of regret it. Yeah. But like, I'll just tell you, but like what I'm really hoping right now, like after this is over, like people realize that a theater isn't a building. It's not, it's people and this whole, in the industry's over prioritization of things and over people is, I feel like it's really come to a head and I hope that after this is all over, we realize we need to really treat the people who make theater better. We need to prioritize their well-being instead of like spending all this money, like buying up real estate or trying to expand like production budgets. Like we're like trying to figure out how better to take care of each other so that next time a really big, terrible event happens, like a bunch of people aren't left scrambling for unemployment. Like, that's so great. A theater isn't a building, it's people. That's perfectly said. I mean, that's exactly what we are realizing is you can't make theater without the other people who are making theater. And that's true if you're an artistic director or a scenic designer or playwright or theater journalist. I mean, it is this web of humanity that makes the whole thing happen. Yeah, and they're still making it happen. Like you don't need a stage right now to do what it is that you're doing. Yeah. You just need like your other friends who are on Zoom. Yeah, right? And like we're really going back to basics here and I really find that refreshing. It is, it is interesting. We are going back to basics and one of the basic is a good story. You just need a good story and that story can be on a Zoom stage reading. It can be a house reading. Kate Krudesi whose play Love, the world premiere was at Marin Theater Company. And of course they got like a week of performances in before they had to cancel it. But she like posted a video of her daughters reading the first scene of her play. It's such a great play to like, sure you can read it at your house with your family. You can get on Zoom and read it. And it can be broadcast, it can not. And I've gotten so many requests from college productions who had to be canceled. And it's kind of like, yes, Zoom your play. Like do it, put it out there because part of it is not about putting out there. It's about the doing. And it's how critically it is to feel those stories, whether you're watching them or reading the roles or anything. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's just like, you know, it's, it's also like a muscle. Like if you don't like, what wall just gonna be in stasis for three months and not do anything? But it's, I mean, I will say these, the access to these plays, I haven't. I love it, yeah. I just, there's something about it, which I don't think I've ever really watched a play on screen or video. Cause I've always been like, I mean, it's not the same. So I'm not gonna. But now I am, I'm bowled away by some of the productions and the experience of it, particularly the much ado, the public's much ado. And the Hamlet, The Globe's Hamlet I watched and the ACT's, Eric Ting directed Gloria, which was amazing. Oh my God, it was so good. And I felt that I just, it felt like you were not only just a part of something, but helping a thing. I mean, these are, I don't know, we're proving a point, proof of concept. Can theater live in a way that is more shareable, more equitable, more affordable, more accessible? Yeah, if it can't then like, that's not the theater I want to be a part of. So anyway. I'm feeling very smug about this conversation because it kind of like proves like everything that we've been saying for the past few years about like, yes, this thing, this thing does not happen. You all just mix it in person to like really love it. It's like, you were saying that like suddenly, oh my God, it's happening. Like I'm really interested to see, and I know no one's gonna release it, but I'm really interested to see like metrics and how, like how many people are tuning in and like how many people watched Gloria? I really wanted to watch it. I think ACT might because I got a survey afterwards being like, how many people did you watch it with? Did you watch it in one sitting or a few, like really smart questions. So I think we should definitely follow up on that. Reach out to them and be like, somebody needs to ask them what they found when they did it. And I don't know. I think, I bet it's more, it was quite well watched. And I wonder like, was it all by San Francisco people or was it people all over the nation? Of course not. Of course it was all over. No, I saw, I know people in New York who watched Gloria. Yeah. I did not watch Gloria because I was really impressed that week. And so... That's a tough one. Yeah. I'm like, I know, I know enough about it. I'm like, I know I'm not gonna feel good because it's about journalists. Oh, you're right. Oh my God, it's about journalists. I'm like, I'm gonna go watch Happy Ship right now. We're gonna go, we're gonna move on. We're gonna watch Schitt's Creek and feel really good about ourselves. Yeah, yeah. But ACT, if you want to do it again. Yeah, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it is just interesting. I feel like this is gonna be a proof of concept for a lot of new ideas. And I'm really excited about what that would mean for the whole industry. We're closing in on our hour. And I wanted to know if you feel comfortable talking about like your favorite shows ever, like that you've ever seen, the ones that you're always like, let me tell you about these three experiences or whatever that you've ever seen in the theater, knowing how much theater you see. Oh my God. I'm like, that's a really hard question. Because I see like, I'm average 100% shows a year. So like, there's just so many things that just like really... So many categories. It doesn't necessarily need to be like the best play, but like the one that you just left being like, yeah. Like maybe it was the cheesiest, most wonderful, like Boppy kind of show or one that was really like dark and like, ooh. Yeah, I mean, I have multiple answers for you. Fabulous, I expected that much. Yeah. Well, I mean, the thing, the show that got me into theater was Phantom of the Opera and which actually like you can watch the Royal Albert Hall performance of it. They mostly, they staged it mostly. And so I showed it to like a friend of mine and he really loved it even though he'd never seen on stage before. But like, you got the same feeling of like, oh my God, those notes. Those notes were hit. They hit them. They hit them. They were so powerful. And so that's like, that's what I kind of go back to when I'm, when I just really need to like feel really raw feelings. I mean, the best, but I mean, I saw what the constitution means to me by how I strike like three times in the theater, which has never happened to me mostly because like I'm, when I'm not a journalist, I'm actually quite poor. And so theater is really dangerous having to have. Yeah, you're just thinking about theater, especially when it's off Broadway. You can really love something and then you cannot see it ever again because it's sold out and you can't get in or tickets are just so prohibitively expensive that I would like to eat dinner this week. I can't afford to go see a show. But I was lucky like so sad and true. I remember getting mad at it at one point of being like, all theater should be free. And like it says, I turned third like, oh, I don't qualify for the, you know, like the young people discounts anymore. I know that felt like a slap in the face. I was like, I'm sorry. I was like, no, I still can't afford $100 tickets. What are you talking about? Yeah, no, nothing has changed since when I was 29. I can now afford like four times more expensive tickets. I did love Heidi Shreks, what the Constitution means to me. That was such a revelation of form and comedy and feminism and politics and like every surprise, I was just mouth agape the whole time. And you got a copy of the Constitution. That's so cool. Exactly. And I heard that they're gonna try to, they were filming it or were the middle of filming it or going to try to and make it more widely accessible. And that's like, that is one of those things where it shouldn't just live in the moment. It is important enough that it needs to be seen by a shit ton more people. Yeah, it needs to be shareable. You're totally, totally right. Yeah, there's that. Yeah, I know. There's that. I mean, recently I saw you at Lower East Cambodian rock band and I paid for it the second time too. Only because it was $25. That's been my favorite thing I've seen this year. Oh, I love that. That show is so great. And she is such a bold, exciting, hilarious writer. Yeah, and it's like, as someone who also comes from, it's about a dad who immigrated from Cambodia and having to deal with trauma and in a very atypical way and having someone who's, my parents also came from very traumatic backgrounds back in Vietnam. And I never seen like that representation of the very particular immigrant trauma that's not pornographic and it's actually quite dark and hilarious at the same time. Like, yeah, it's never been, I've never seen or heard of play like that before. Yeah. And so like that, it was just so beautiful and joyful which is really all you can, that's all I can really hope for. That's all you want is art form, you know? In the world, that's what I want. More of. We will get back there soon. Those are pretty awesome recommendations that span a lot of genres. Yeah. And Camber Me Rockman's gonna have a cast album. It'll be out in May. Yeah. And that's another thing, like cast albums, like that's a lot of people's first entry into a show as well. And that's another form. It's like a streamable form. See, we're already doing it. We're already doing it. And cast albums doesn't take away from the live experience. No, my sister knew every word of Hamilton before I, this was me being like the greatest sister when I surprised her for her birthday, like walking up to the theater. I didn't tell her we were going and then it was like, there was the marquee and she was like, ah! But she already knew the whole thing. And she told me afterwards, she was like listening to it and then seeing it, obviously, there's so much more there. And she kind of did not have any way to fathom what it would look like or feel like on stage live, but enjoyed them separately. Like she still jams out while she's baking her fabulous cakes. She'll still jam out to it. And that is a different experience than being there and seeing it. And they can both exist in their own. Hamiltonianiously, yeah. Well, the first time I saw Hamilton, like it was like is at the public. And I have, so no one, none of us knew what it was. And the thing about me is because I'm bilingual, so when it comes to musical theater, I actually don't hear all of it initially. Like I'm maybe 5% of the lyrics of a musical the first time I hear it. I don't catch it because it's just so too fast for my brain to process. And Hamilton especially. Oh God, especially. Like that is the fastest spoken. And I love a fast, I love a fast show. But even me, I was like, oh, I think I got, I got almost that, almost all of it. Yeah, I got maybe 25% of Hamilton the first time I saw it. Especially David Diggs' character, where I was like, that you are an athlete of language. I cannot figure out how you did that. It's one of those times where I'm just like, I watch subtitles for everything that I watch. I use subtitles. Yeah, that's hard. I was like, can I just turn something on? And now I can't. It's like, my brain is so tired. Just tell me. Yeah. So like the cast album was like, it was just great for that reason because theater, you can't catch it all the first time. And most of the time, like I'm wishing I could revisit certain aspects of certain scenes just because like, I feel like I didn't get all of it. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think we're on the verge of something new and exciting. And I didn't know that that's what we were going to talk about in this today, but I'm so glad we did. Cause I think it does help me envision some hopeful new exciting future where there are lots of ways to talk about and experience theater. And you know, theater's not going anywhere. It's been around too long. It's like, you can't, you can't kill me. No, no, it's gonna be, it's gonna be different. And you know what? Like I'm paraphrasing, but like, but not from someone else, but like normal before didn't completely work either. And so I don't want to go, I don't want to go back to normal. Like I want us to evolve through our next state. And I want it to be a landscape where more people can fall in love with it, more people have access to it. And maybe a landscape where I can maybe revisit a show I've really loved once in a while. Because you know, because you know what? Yes, it's really great to have like Brantek and Jenkins is off the rune in my memory. But it would be really great if I could just see it. Yeah. Just like, can I play? I just need to see it. And you know, that also, Yeah. That's such a good point. Moments when I, I want theater to help me process a thing. If you lose somebody, if you fall in love, and it's kind of like, I kind of need to see this play in this state of me. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that would be rad. Let's just say that's gonna happen. I'm just gonna say. Like I'm putting it out there. Like equity can figure out how to make sure people get paid every time I've watched something. Like it's just the infrastructures they are realizing now that we're actually a lot more flexible than we, than we were. And so I'm really excited. I'm just hoping people see it as an indication that we need to move forward. Instead of trying to recreate what was. Well, the two of us will remind that every step. Exactly. Maybe that's the thing. Maybe that's the thing all right after I come out of my hole. Yes. Maybe. Forward. Exactly. But also we can all just chill and take care of ourselves. No pressure, no production required. All good. Stream it if you want to stream it. Don't if you don't want to. I'm gonna have to conduct it the rest of the day. This is like my, this is a, I'm on Thursday, I have this call with Lauren. Okay, after that, I don't have to do anything. No, we're done. We're totally done. My cat has made her cameos. We are all good. I'm just gonna end this by saying thank you. Just a massive thank you. And let's do more of these because you are such a vital voice and so important in how we make and understand this thing we love. So thanks. Thank you for making sure I stay relevant even though I'm in hiding right now. You will never not be relevant. Your hair is awesome. Your glasses rock and you have a cool cat. So. Thank you. All right. Likewise, fellow pink hair lady. Yeah. All right. We'll talk soon. Take care.