 To me, that was the most stressful, completely like pressure cooker. You know, when I first got here, I really didn't care about throwing and I just got bruised up like crazy. So I literally go back to my traditional normal technique. I'm kind of extremist. I've never been a joy to coach because of. Looking at that, obviously 2018 was a big transition year, right? You had been at the center for multiple years. You moved obviously back to Ohio, but how did you guys meet and how did you wind up in Ohio? I knew of, so like where we met is like, I actually knew of her before she even knew who I was because I had a family friend who's actually, he's a Catholic priest who was stationed in Canton, Ohio. So when I was in high school, I would hear about this girl in North Canton who was really good at the job put. I mean, named something Muffin. I was just like, oh wow. And you know, I've seen this girl throwing 50 feet. So I knew who she was. And then we probably first really met, actually at a camp, she was an Ironwood camp. We really first met and indoor meet. She was throwing for Kentucky. I was throwing for Penn State. And that was just like the impassing meet that you meet at track meets, of course. But we stayed in contact for a while. She came out to the training center when I was there. She did a little thing where she was just, you know, following coaches around. She followed art around. And it was really cool, I think, experience for her to just see what we did at that level for a week. So yeah, I was always just trying to slide in, make sure that I was in the back of my mind somehow. Really, I would say after the USA's in 2017, out in Sacramento, that's when we really started talking more and more and it started evolving. And after the World Championships in 2017 is when I decided, you know, that was a point where it was just like, hey, I'm moving to Ohio. I moved here for her. I'm from Pennsylvania originally, which is pretty far, like a seven hour drive from here. So it was a 100% for her. I don't think she knew I was going to do that. I think people who know me know I'm a little bit more like calculated and that's not really the move. That's like a risky situation, but it was a gut feeling. And I was just like, this is right. And kind of packed up the bags and left Northridge and found my way coming out to Ohio. And I'll tell you, it was pretty darn cold after living in California for five years, but it was worth it. That's awesome, clearly. Obviously, so that 18, you guys get engaged. You have a, what for you definitely was a down year, right? I mean, for you, I think what you had 20, 20 102, I think was your season best. And then you had a solid indoor performance. All right, second over 70 feet as you begin the outdoor campaign, like you said, you got beat by one of the athletes, you're coaching and then I think you went to Stockholm, right? And you throw like 19 something. So there's always that element, but if it wasn't, and you just had a bad meet, and then I think you went like what 20, 40 or something like the next day, somewhere else over there in Europe. And so at that point, you're at the, you're basically June 1st and USA's are three weeks away. She's taken the reins and you have the total trust now. Was there stress at that point or were you guys kind of just like, we know it's coming. What was kind of the mindset at that point? I'll say, you know, and it's like the thing that he says, like the backstory of the whole thing. So we went to UVA, Ohio State went to UVA and Joe was like, okay, I'm gonna come. So he goes out there on his own, meets us out there and he's warming up like far and there was a blind 20 meters, last night's 20 meters and I'm watching Joe and he's throwing the ball, taking the one bounce out of the pit and rolling onto the track. And I'm like, okay, I don't know how far that is because it's so far over that line. So, you know, he's warming up like crazy, first throw goes in and they call him on a foul in the front. And then it's just like shut down from there. You know, it's kind of backing off, trying to find the throw, the rhythm completely changes. So it's like, the people that were at that meet knew that like something was about to happen. So then he goes to Doha, same thing. Like, you know, people are telling me like, hey, Joe's warming up crazy. They measure one of the warmups, wasn't it in the 2280 range or something like that? 2287, it's like, okay, so all these things are happening. And so he's saying like, well, I weren't far all the time, like who cares, I'm not throwing far in the meet and I'm just like, well, let's talk about what's actually going on here. Like you're revving up your warmups like crazy and then you're getting called on a foul because they're not controlled and then you're having to dial it back to find a throw and it's like you never get back to any sort of like a rhythm that you can build on. So it's like having those types of conversations, I think were really important, but like I'm not gonna lie. Like to me, that whole phase of the entire thing was the most stressful, most pressure, just completely like pressure cooker. For me personally, and I think probably for Joe, that was the worst because I knew that he was in better shape than it looked, but I knew until he did something that actually counted, it was gonna be bad. And it was like that type of mentality, just like blue collar, just like shut up every day, everybody, like me, him, everybody's just go to the track, work on it, fix it, figure it out. Like if you can do it, and that's the thing I said to him all the time, I'm like, listen, I get what you're saying, warmups don't count. And I know they don't, but at the end of the day, if you can do that, you can do that. So like let's figure it out and do it, you know? And that was kind of my mentality with the whole thing. And I think that just making it a little bit more like, what are we doing? What are we not doing? What do we need to do better logistically to be able to make better use of the warmups and mentally like where are you at? You know, and that's the other thing like the caffeine, all this stuff that he was kind of just like all over the place with, you know, like developing a checklist of like, this is the way that it needs to be every time to do it the right way. And I think that that really helped him just feel like, okay, I have a plan, I know what I'm doing. And it made him a lot more secure in going into me to be able to execute. When she says stressful, in 2018, when you refer to that off year I had, there's a lot more to that than most people know. And like, I don't mind saying it. You know, when I first got here, I really didn't care about throwing. You know, I was just excited to be here with her. So the few times I was throwing, you know, you can make anything look good when it's into the net. But really when the reality hit was like, you know, January, February, March, I'm starting to put some on it and it's not going. And she's seeing me, then we get to the point where I'm going to pre-fontain in like a week and I try to turn it on with this technique and I pull my groin, my right groin and I just got bruised up like crazy. So we're just like, oh, you can't go to pre-fontain to have a bad showing. So I literally go back to my traditional normal technique two days beforehand and then I throw a pre-fontain. And to be honest, it was actually pretty decent under the circumstances for not doing it for a while and having bummed up groin. But it was like a rough season and I think people think it was rough because I came here with transition but there was a lot more factors involved. I went back to doing that technique right after pre-fontain, I went to U.S.A.s. We went out to L.A. to work with Art with it and then all the way through Christmas, this past year I was still doing going back to L.A. Then Art actually saw it in person and was just like, I don't think it's going to work for you. I think he knew I was kind of giving up on it too. You know, I don't know, I don't want to say it was a bad technique or this and that but I know I could pull it off. It wasn't looking for me. And I think, yeah, in that transition year I could have made it look a lot better if I just kept things going but maybe ultimately it was a good thing because I kind of bought back into a lot of the bread and butter things that we worked on from the start, from the basics. Still what I do today are a lot of Arts drills for sure. That's my bread, I just get them in practice now. So I mean, that's the bread and butter for timing and sequencing, I still do. But yeah, with that whole transition that year there was a lot of like, what the heck? So then the fast forward what she was saying it really wasn't until after I had that low point I gave Ashley the reins, we cleaned it up through 70 feet indoors in two weeks which was like a big bounce back from throwing 19 meters and losing to the athlete that was coaching. But like she said, we had to, we called it the eight weeks till Doha because that's where our lifting plan was and Virginia was I think the seventh week of that and it really wasn't supposed to happen but I was kind of feeling good. But like, even though I went to that first diamond league in Doha, that was the most confident I'd been in a long time. It was not to say it wasn't stressful but like all of a sudden I started to get that feeling back and that excitement that day to day of like waking up and like you got a mission and you're ready to accomplish it. Even though I know it was stressful for her because she was starting to see glimpses of life and it wasn't happening yet I was starting to feel that groove. So fast forwarding that into those European meets which I will tell you that Stockholm meet I don't know if I could throw 21 meters at that meet just with the way the ring was set up it was moving all over the place. Yeah, like it was a lot up and down but I'll tell you like what I always used to tell people was like I know, like I know I'm gonna be done like when the cannon doesn't fire at far. Now if I'm like out of the ring and flopping all over the place like that's something we can fix. That's something I can fix off of my years experience but if I don't see that ball go at all and I tell you this I didn't really see it go at all in 2018. So all the people who were saying washed up and done and you know I've heard that my whole career but I started to believe it in 2018 real hard. Right after this 2019 after that indoor meet I was like yeah they're 100% right and that was the worst part for me when you start believing all the kind of the shit talking. So once we kind of saw the ball go even in Virginia I did tell her like it doesn't count, it doesn't go this, this and I was maybe being a little whiny saying that because I was kind of pissed but at the same time in the back of my mind I was like you know you did make the ball. You know there wasn't a positive about that but I wasn't quite ready to get back into that phase until we put together the next segment going into the USA's. And that obviously must have felt nice. 2235 big competition you know a couple of people I was like I told you I'm like this guy he's told you you don't count them out. I think one of the things that's really important based on what you both said you guys talk about plan mindset and that's I think a thing that a lot of people don't get they don't know how to plan. I mean like you're saying you're timing warmups you know I've done that with my athletes where we know okay you're gonna have like eight minutes between throws. So we would start running practices like we're going eight minutes between throws so we're always setting that rhythm. So planning and obviously mindset you did have a lot of variables. It was no shock if you looked at Instagram to see that you were very distracted in 2018 in a very positive way. You could see like the smitten teenager not to crash jokes. But it was like oh dude this guy is like love bit big time. But you kind of look at that and I think obviously working through that when you said you know the trust was there and obviously Ashley kind of took the reins that's a really important thing that people to get because a lot of people like you said when you guys were both stressed out what got you guys through that? A lot of guys in your shoes might have been if it was the same it was another Joe Kovacs go okay Art I've given it you know I let Ashley do it we're dying you got to help me with an emergency thing and you kind of freak out and you see athletes do that they jump. I've had athletes that when they lose the trust that's when everything goes down. So what helped you guys to kind of keep pushing through and not lose that trust? For me a major part was like we started speaking the same language. I'll tell you like I definitely never shut Art out. Like she was the thing was I kind of stopped talking to Art about track. Ashley actually talked to Art a few times occasionally about that but like I wasn't sending video and saying hey coach look at this this it was me and her working together. And of course like you know Art was super supportive of me in my career and he wants me to be happy but like there was a point where like she was kind of steering my ship at that point. So if there was any input to be had it kind of had to go through her cause otherwise I was just getting too caught up on one thing if it wasn't that and it was all downhill I'm kind of extremist and I know it's I've never you can ask any of my coaches in my career I've never been a joy to coach because of my volatility and how I get caught up on one thing and I just it's either works and goes well or nine times out of 10 it just freaks out and goes the opposite. I mean I think that the biggest misconception about the whole thing is like Joe said when he came here he and Art were working on a different technique that I don't know anything about that that's something that Art and Joe had spoken about before they decided to do it and at that point like I'd watch him practice but like I didn't have anything to say about that because I didn't know anything about that. So like I'm smart enough to know that if I don't know something like especially to a guy that's won a world championship and been an Olympic medalist like I didn't want anything to do with like directing that not that I ever necessarily wanted anything to do with directing it. What had happened was after that the technique and then the change and the change back to his original technique it was like every day even when they were doing the new technique like double cameras on the ring going through the videos every day that type of thing and it just that process of the video the uploading and then the conversations the phone conversations for coaching it was just tough it wasn't tough because of art it was just tough because like logistically it added another layer. The other thing was Joe watching video and over analyzing everything he did it just wasn't flowing. Everybody talks about like me taking the reins and I don't particularly see it like that. I mean when we started talking about the eight weeks to Doha so from the indoor season to the outdoor season a two month block like I was involved with the strength training piece of it. I wrote the listing on that but as far as like the X's and O's and that type of thing it was a lot of it was guided by Joe and if I ever had anything that I didn't understand like hey in this position or that I talked to art you know and so he really helped to like bridge the gap for us and I'm not saying that we were doing it all alone like he was out because he was never like out of the equation like there was a point where Joe we weren't sending him videos every day. Joe wasn't calling him talking to him about the technique every day. It wasn't like this daily what am I gonna do what am I gonna do type thing. That's when we started you know he helped us into that that's what he wanted for us. He wanted us to take it in that direction more ourselves but a lot of it is just has been listening to Joe what makes him feel comfortable what makes him feel confident. What were the things you were doing when you felt like you were your best and creating a plan around that. It's not like it's like oh here's Ashley and her system and she's no we did some different things that he hasn't done before that you know maybe he saw some Mike Clee just do and wanted to try. He's an adult he's a champion you know so it's a collaboration it's not as much of me just being like okay Joe this is what you're doing today that's just not how it is. I'll say she did expose me to some things that were like new and I think I probably got excited for that. I was throwing different weighted balls for the first time really in my career I threw an 18 one year with R for most of the year but I was actually kind of changing up the balls at that point which I struggled with. I threw an 18 or 17 if you gave me a 15 I couldn't throw the 15 bar for the longest time. Heck if you gave me a 14 if you threw an 18 you gave me a 14 it would take a lot in me to throw the 14 bar there in the 18 especially in the transition. But I think I learned some things about my throw and I think it gave me a little bit of a spark of excitement at that point. I don't know if I felt like I knew all the tools in the box I had but it kind of gave me a whole new like perspective a whole new my mind was geared towards doing something different. A lot of the lifting that we were doing first couple of weeks it wasn't we weren't lifting all throughout the week it was more like a one hit in beginning of the week and I didn't know how to do that. So like I was expecting to like last to throw on a Monday and then it didn't happen and like I had to go through all these like little transition during that first eight weeks of like learning like okay I'm gonna be fresh on these days and being fresh I could expect this but when I'm not fresh it's okay to just work on some technique it's okay to just work on some positions and work through it. Joe your mom was obviously your first coach she was a thrower did your mom offer to coach her or did you have to like convince her to coach you?