 All right Frank Yang We are live Thank you so much for coming on the program Thanks for having me bro Atlas in for the bra infinite bra Yo guys check out check out my uh, it's okay uniform Just knowing I'll start to wear that but it's too hot right now I have a stringer inside. This is my three layers of the onion my stringer inside and this and the zochen We're gonna talk about this three stages to the absolute so I am so pumped for this conversation unbelievably pumped the More to the absolute we go inward the in a sense the less Dialectic we can have About it that is really resonant and it's kind of like when you get to the level of LeBron James and Michael Jordan there's only a few basketball players that they can play with now and so That's what I've noticed about where you've gotten in your understanding of who we are and why we're here is that it's made it So that I can tell based on what you're communicating about your Realization about the nature of reality that this is going to be an optimal convo because we've gotten to that one end and We're communicating it in somewhat similar ways So yeah, that's yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah I heard you say like on your YouTube videos like the analogy of big games and Infinity freshman self and just a very very simple way to get to the truth like you have these two step things like, okay You're a separate self in the cloud and then you're a bedding awareness. You're the sky Okay, there's that you disappear into the both and then you become form an emptiness And then the time to our stuff too I wouldn't know what we're talking about when you say tundra just like two months ago But I started looking like zochen and tundra stuff It just makes sense just after you realize emptiness you go to the contract route where you fill the empty with form But the problem is a lot of people doing tundra without realizing emptiness first So they get stuck in content without realizing that the content of the context are one and the same You find the empties in the form and from the emptiness. Yep Yeah, and this is the heart sutra's core and emptiness is form form is emptiness and Well, let's actually go right into the steps. Yeah, because I think it's I think it's so important to go right in so Also, what's so interesting about Frank is that Infinite bra over here is a really good Eloquent and punctual communicator about what's going on and so You and I come from a practice that has gotten us here That actually has a lot of similarities So both of us have sat the fair of out of buddhism vipassana meditation retreats ten days Zip shut the fuck up. Don't say a word Yeah, what dude people can't even shut up for one day I remember when I first heard that people didn't talk for ten days I was like, dude, I'm gonna be in the pool of people that there's only like whatever a couple Thousand or tens of thousands on the planet that have ever been able to shut the fuck up for ten straight days and tap into what happens when you do that I was scared what I first heard about it, but I just knew I had to do that Before I went to my first retreat It's that's a component of it for us then Zouk Chen is another component of it for us and then I'm I'm not sure which spiritual Mystic literatures you've read but the doubt of Ching Confucius is an elect is another one that I've really liked I've really liked the Old and New Testament. I've loved the Sufi metaphysics. So have you also kind of looked at some of those? Mystic tradition literatures as well not as much not as much I come from like an background in fitness and art and philosophy and Neuroscience, I like to read about psychology and through that I started transitioning to Spiritual practice because I realized that oh, I just wanted to explore consciousness I just want to explore how the mind works because at first you pull the body and we next on the body What's left always for the brain when he makes out on the brain quote-unquote makes on the brain You can't really make on the brain, but I'm just saying When you quote-unquote next on the brand you go into the mind And you're gonna consciousness and realize that consciousness is not what gives rise and manifest all the other stuff from before the body the mind the brain the entire reality at least from that of direct experience and So I I read a lot of the stuff that I read when I first started on the path was pretty mainstream like a Catolli and Yep, uh, Jen McKenna Yeah, I tend to read the more modern stuff. It's like when I was into philosophy I used to read a lot of I never really read that much of the original text I always kind of read the like the more modern petition of it Said with spirituality and then I went to my first retreat and after that I got into the more Some of the more on duality stuff for my first research I didn't know what non duality was really I was just into the more basic mindfulness stuff And then I went to the group or spiral round, you know Yeah, I mean all that those guys and then oh that's when I started to Abide in the I am and then my third week, you know my second retreat Sorry, my second retreat after that I started to get into the pragmatic Dharma stuff Which is the the guys that I interviewed with yesterday Michael Taft and Dana Ingram and Kenneth folk True to those ashes and young of those guys So everything I almost everything I know about the old school Buddhism are from those guys filter through this guy But I know I've I've read I'm reading the Tibetan book of the dead right now. So I'm getting a little bit into like the original stuff So Yeah, beautiful Beautiful I I also take a very as you mentioned a very scientific as well as neuroscientific and psychological Edge to this as well as a synthesis of science and spirituality in many ways. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah Do you ever do pick up Oh like pick up artists or pick up basketball Pick up pick pick up pick up girls Pick up artists. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, sure I night out of 10 people that I talked to who are on the path or like Couldn't finish the path at one point they either became they were either bodybuilders or they were pick up artists Yeah, yeah, that's So yeah, because aesthetic aesthetic is a big part of it. Yeah, and it's always the game of psychology with Getting in the shortest amount of time possible getting somebody to say yes You know where I got my path from in that regard is sales I did so much door to door sales selling so many different products and basically it's knock knock knock Hey, I'm going to educate you about something that you may be interested in and then within, you know, five or ten minutes Do you have their credit card information? Are you closing the sale? You know, can you build trust that quickly? Which is very similar with like a pickup artist is trying to like build Repour and trust really quickly to to get yeah And bodybuilding aesthetic. Yeah I think one of the reasons because I think it's not just particular stuff that we do is because we come from all those different angles Yes, it's almost like Yeah, so it's not really about a couple of the cells it's like oh bodybuilding and sales and pick up This seems so opposite and the other side of the extreme from clinical spirituality And that's why that's exactly why a lot of people will get into spirituality You'll go go really deep into it. We're deep at the other side of it because when two extremes go to the end they meet Yeah, they look they're talking about the loop Same thing Yep. Yep. And actually the word polymath is probably one of the best words having learned much across different fields Because when you do that process, what happens is you basically do what's Alan Watts said was the many paths in the one end the many paths in the one end And so you see it from all of those different paths and angles and signposts and all the same stuff that are not just spiritual But it's also scientific. It's also entrepreneurial. It's also artistic Aesthetic it's emotional quotient. It's all of that stuff mixed together Okay, so my bit here to play with would be I also did a lot of not only the old school mystic stuff But I got just a lot of the modern stuff that you listed too Decor totally the audio shanti the muji the rupert's spira even our Even our friend bentinio massaro Is is also young and is realized and has also been Something someone interesting that's helped me along the path quite a bit And so it's kind of interesting seeing a lot of young people that are maybe Even in kind of like their their 20s or kind of in their 30s now that are Picking this up. Let's let's I love that guy man. I talk I talk to him like every day Let's nowadays because he's busy doing his retreat right now But there was a time like after after my awakening where he really kind of helped me integrate by just being a friend Like for like I think for like five months. We used to talk every day just like bros and stuff Yeah, yeah Yeah, and and that's the thing because again, it's like the michael jordan lebron james thing is that like There's not going to be that many people that you can really vibe on the level of both Simultaneously the void as well as infinity expressing itself. So Okay, so let's let's play with our Stepping stones here. I'll go ahead and recap a couple stepping stones And then you'll hit the tennis ball over with your thoughts about this so Okay, so generally speaking The idea of like sota panya or stream entry has been something really interesting that I think we've both been Fascinated with and I think stream entry for me has had a lot to do with Sometime at my first meditation retreat learning about even the idea of Being an observer or a witness to the clouds of thoughts And emotions and feelings and beliefs and perceptions and blah blah objects etc appearing And disappearing and appearing and disappearing and training the monkey mind to not get attached To the clouds themselves, but to recognize myself as the sky more so the observer or the witness become more and more aware To consciousness itself. Okay. So for me, I didn't have those words back then But that was sort of my yeah, my first step was that sort of understanding And we'll also probably talk about entheogens as well because both of us have had a good amount of yeah relation there So then it in a sense the next The next step was sort of the it's really for me. It was very sudden It was it for me this second sort of step was basically the complete switch from being Kind of full time not aware of the seer To being boom full time aware of the seer Aware permanently of the seer aware permanently of awareness and how awareness is shared and eternal Among all of us that was that was the that was kind of the second thing So it's like kind of like recognizing sky versus clouds and then recognizing. Oh shit permanent sky is shared and eternal Awareness and then the last one for me The last step is to recognize that even awareness is an agent of infinity of source Expressing itself and that's sort of recognizing what the void is or the absolute or the ultimate is as well as infinity expressing itself being completely centerless this atlas character and this frank character are in Is our We're in a dream and that these characters are completely illusory but also unique Expressions in the dream. Okay. So we're now yeah walk us through sort of some of your tennis ball hits along bouncing back from what you said I use an analogy of a video game at first you're a video game character You're just a separate avatar inside a video game and you don't know that you're in the video game And in a second stab you're the witness you become the screen and you start to observe the video game Oh the god consciousness And then you some a lot of people think they're done there which is cool That's a little bit more spacious because it's like that's the sky versus the cloud the first stage And then the third stage is when the screen Merge with not just the individual character, but all the characters inside the inside that game And he said all the infinite numbers of games in the entire multiverse Yes Environment that's whatever the sky the clouds are just you measure that so the way I put it is that you become The nothing that manifests all games in all multiverses. Oh perfect So it's almost like you pick so but that's not really right analogy because when you zoom down into a pixel What do you get you get infinity? So that's the vpasha path just zooming and breaking our atoms until you can't break our atoms anymore That's why even going can't use that analogy. Oh you're breaking our atoms by looking Examining your body my until you can't break the atoms anymore. What is that? That's emptiness But they it's not it's not like a small thing here. It's not like oh it's small It's also a fucking huge because the more you can contract and you can explain so like you are like the point That's smaller than adam but at the same time you are infinity and then they're the same so We're talking about the exact same thing I think another analogy that I use is you at the last stage you become a cosmic storm That has no I I could be So there's no center and everything is rolled into this cosmic storm In a sort of like impermanent transient process Even the witness is rolling there. Even the observers Roll in there the cell for the big ass the cell for the small ass Everything's rolling in that cosmic storm and in that cosmic storm. There is no separate watcher. There's no separate observer and It's like there is awareness, but you're not present You're transcendent existence on existence Yeah Same analogy I love that that was that was super solid specifically. I loved how you went through this Recognizing on a video game level, which is really important as an analogy to use here Yeah, basically thinking that you are a separate finite body Entity and you actually use this which I think I've started to borrow this from you so good is the condom over the head Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's like Because I used to be a sex addict so And that's also so interesting. Yeah, and that has to do with pick up and body and aesthetic. Yeah Yeah, and but it is really it is this is infinity constantly having sex. It's with itself like you said in the universe University universe fucking you and you It's all very sexual this thing is extremely sexual It's like when people ask me what does the stateless state of grounds ground feel like I'll give them two things One it feels like death Simultaneously, it feels like it feels like an orgy with the universe Yes, without an orgy without a person Yeah, every sensation everything you come across. It's just penetrating each other interconnected And it's just like everything I want it out of sex I think I can get it with like the smallest sensation or the whole room or you know the sky the cloud wherever But sex is still good though So if you have sex, uh, it's like it's like a meta-meta sex is like, okay Before you wait just to pick up without the realization. It's just like, okay. You just okay That's that's actually the portal to infinity because if you think about it um Having sex the girl or the guy here girl would be guy You're just middleman for you to sort of glimpse at the absolute because That's a mini death the orgasm is a nabotic state where you mind just goes completely blank That's why most people want to get orgasms But the point is out to just to get orgasm That's cool, too. The organ is kind of like a linear awakening Like John asked for mystical experiences The real thing that you're trying to get out of sex is the post orgasmic bliss. That's the state of equanimity that we're after Yeah, yep, it's a glimpse. It's a glimpse Everything that we pursue externally for happiness is giving us glimpses into Yeah, what we see and that's why in the parable the product of sun is the turn Rather than seeking externally is the turn inward to find as orabindo said it's the well Or as orabindo said is the well of honey that's located under the rock And yeah, and the rock is kind of the ego and as you were saying there's like this egoic condom like bubble in the game character at first and not always if you Some indigenous traditions raise the child from birth In terms of recognizing infinity expressing itself And that's really interesting as well is to think about a pedagogy for kids So that they don't grow up even having the egoic condom bubble even to start But what happens is then yeah the recognition like you said of not only being that screen that then all of the Movie plays on but also that the screen itself is the screen for it's shared for all of the characters across all of games So it's the you you said this nothing that manifests all games So we are that we are nothing manifesting all infinite creation And all games and I and and that's both the plonk At the plonk level subatomic blah all the way down as well as the largest infinite cosmic Yeah, yeah, and a cosmic storm with no center is another really good one that you said also So it's basically your lila in the sanskrit tradition. You're this divine play unfolding and yet you have no center in that cosmic play that is unfolding and Because you recognize that you are it you're not the localization of the atlas or the frank It's in you've used this actually this would probably be a good place to to go is You said that there's a solidity That dissolves and dissolves and dissolves and dissolves and dissolves and dissolves until the last tiny spec That's that's even you said there's a difference a quantum leap difference between 99.9% dissolved and 100% dissolved Tell us about sort of yeah that last spec what you mean by solidity And and if that means basically becoming the nothing that then manifests infinite creation that's sort of that last step that last leap okay, so basically You're doing if you do come from the vipassana path Basically, you're scanning your body. You're becoming aware of all the sensations in your body That's the very very basic practice of mindfulness by scanning the body and that object of meditation Could be the body or could be the breath. It could be side sound thoughts, whatever It doesn't really matter because all sensations are equal footing So let's just say for me as an example. My path was body scanning. I did body scanning as a practice for about Three years before I started getting to the other stuff So what happens is when you become aware as a Meditator as a subject here meditating to an object outside of you It was a duality at first Right and the whole thing about spirituality is closing that duality between subject and object between observed and observer and observation So at first when you scan the body you are breaking down your body atom by atom It's almost like your body is this onion and you peeling it off layer by layer by layer or just con whatever you want to call it and Just by putting awareness on a sensation Long enough you automatically dissolve it and you realize that awareness and sensations are one of the same And the body is just a collection of sensations if the mind the self is just a collection of sensations If side sound emotions are all just a collection of sensations The more you place your awareness on those sensations the more you see that first of all They're not separate awareness are those sensations sensation are aware of themselves exactly where they are without a center Without hear it without a seer without a thinker without a doer and second of all You almost call it physically penetrate those sensations from solidity to liquid or honey or nectars to Yeah, right so But before you can truly realize everything you have to first become nothing because I think Affirmation comes after negation. That's why the 90 90 method at this not that that's so not me not me Why isn't it everything's me? I've talked to a guy A few guys told me why can't I just do this inquiry practice like this? Everything's me. That's me the sky's me that's the self everything's yes. You have to say no to everything Really say yes. You have to die completely die Nobody wants to die but everyone wants to wake up. That's what Ryan Thomas says. Yeah You have to dissolve everything of solidity not just in your body mind But in your field of experience Through all the aggregates different sensor until every single last speck of it is dissolved And before you could do that that last speck even if that speck was a size like smaller than an atom It's still going to be a clinical self that's going to solidify A ground and for some people that ground on myself included before I dissolve last speck that ground could be The awareness or the observer or the the godhead you're gonna personalize the godhead and say that's the new self If the last speck is there and then it's not last speck It's the only kind of poor things to pour the ground and say that that's the new me A lot of people take psychedelics before they dissolve before they recognize shanata. They they go through the same thing They they unconsciously Uh find this stand on just another ground and say that's the that's the new self with the capital s and let me show you talking about uh metaphors and analogies and um visualization because We both really into this stuff. I have a few met a few visual metaphors that um that I save to I'm gonna show you that really Stuff like stuff like this like you you have that see it's like you can you that that I have a I have a video of it. I think you're you're Your um viewers will get get really sensitive with this thing is like Oh, there you go. I found it Okay, so this is what this is a good example of it You see that? Yeah, yep. Yeah See and then uh This one is cool. Like like something like that. That's that's the really good example of emptiness and form just Just fucking each other and you know the parts and holes and holes and part And there's one more there like this one I like a lot because there's no gap. There's no it's completely seamless There's complete distance and separating because the other ones are still there's still like a space inside That's still not very accurate. Even though you could feel like that It feels like that's how I feel when I walk around sometimes But that's not even that accurate because there's no center, right? So before you close the loop, let me turn my camera on again Okay, so the reason I figured that because see before you dissolve the last speck of solidity infinity can't Can't know itself. There won't be the quote-unquote perfect knowledge Of know thyself know the lord It's going to be a self knowing the lord instead of the lord of the self knowing itself And and people how do I where the like is gone? You just know that it's the most obvious thing Well, it's more obvious than the fact that you thought you were a human character before you you woke up so yeah It's just yeah And then we come across another person who is sort of there You just know and people just ask me how do you know if this guy's there that this is you just you just know yeah But but of course everyone let me stress is everyone's there already It's almost yeah Here's another knowledge is you're you're you're you're a vase or an island in the middle of The ocean or a middle of space and then you dissolve that island and then just just wash it over you But then there was never a cup There was never a cup there was never an island there was never a vase You break the vase and that the space inside the the vase and the space outside the vase has always been connected But even that vase is made up of empty space The difference is the degrees of solidity. That's why I keep using the word solidity the difference between Buddha Jesus And a finite con it's just a degree of solidity the former it could vibrate between air Uh liquid or an ice cube if you once but what the the letter the fine icon could only be an ice cube But the same no things so one of the most common understandings that you mentioned throughout is As is talked about across the traditions is recognizing these onion layers for those that are really interested in kind of diving into this recognizing that We've Identified ourselves dogmatically fundamentally culturally Become indoctrinated and baptized into believing that we are the body. We are finite We are our name. We are our form. We are our ethnicity our age our career All of these layers of identity and so the idea of one of the most easy fundamental ideas is to imagine yourself Taking those layers one by one at a time off until you get to the most pure bare empty That we share and that can be thought of as The awareness before coloration. It's like the blank canvas before it gets colored Like this it's like the white shirt before it got colored like this And it's like your shirt before it got colored very similarly And so I like that. I like how you you know a really simple way to yeah, there it is. I know And then the other thing that you brought up is that you know, one of the things that people Kind of Experience the struggle with in like the parable the prodigal son to turn the attention on the seer itself Is because the subtlety isn't there the sensitivity isn't there and vipassana you turned it into a verb vipassionalizing The vipassionalizer The vipassionalizer. Yeah, I I love this I love that I love that and and this is It's so good and it's basically like you said it's like Having your awareness on the cloud of sensation That's occurring in the body scans or in the scans of where the monkey mind is bouncing around between clouds to where you get sensitive enough to where you recognize that the a Nietzsche the impermanence of the cloud or of the Even as goenka says that tiniest little biochemistry that's happening and then gone and and so That's that's critical to sort of people. It's so interesting It's like when you play a you play the violin, which is also interesting I played the viola when I was a kid and and so what's interesting is that you can't expect just like when you go and play You know basketball too. You can't walk out and begin shooting three pointers and sinking all of them So in a sense same with vipassana, it's almost like It's a muscle Yeah, that we have to train Because otherwise it gets atrophied the muscle of beat of recognizing oneself as the seer It gets atrophied if we don't Do the the repetitions the workout And so that's that's been another critical Part of that too. So so basically would you say that in a sense the dissolving Of the ego is very very gradual gradual gradual repetitions repetitions and then there are these both the sudden also breakthroughs that happen that that then we kind of you kind of rebaseline to that as home Of being the seer the seer becomes the home and then that's that's a level of subtlety away from the gross physical and then the sort of that becomes home for a while and then you also Kind of recognize that then even awareness is an agent of infinity and you can kind of shed even that to this nothingness to this void itself that is then Expressing infinite creation and then and then you're no longer there's no center anymore It's just that massive like you showed in the visuals And then that's kind of the highest you could say level of subtlety rather than the gross physical Something Around that style of increase in subtlety is that the subtlety dissolves the the grossness the physicalness Yes Okay, before we go on let's I want to clarify for the people watching when you say seer Um, you're talking about the infinity that's expressing itself You're talking about the awareness without the observer Yeah, because people can get confused because when I talk about the seer I always say there's no seer There's no seer. There's no here. That's the buddhist term of saying it That you hear the hearing in seeing just to seeing In thinking just to think it's not thinking no seer no here So let's just define that really quick. Uh, so when you say seer is a seer with a capital s It's the absolute witness Without separate observers. Okay, cool. And when I say seer if I ever use the word seer I mean like the individual seer that's peeking out from behind your eyes, which doesn't exist Interesting and like ramanam ramanam aharshi said that you know god is the seer So like recognize that it's the capital s versus when you say you sometimes mean like the lower case s like okay, okay Also the term awareness also needs to be clear because uh when when when when that's why the decision between awareness and uh Well, they're like I said before there is awareness, but you're not present. So there's no individual observer you can if you can objectify anything then If you can observe anything then by definition, you're not the observer So you can observe the observer if you can be aware of awareness If you can be conscious or even god consciousness, then by definition, you're none of those things And that's when you disappear into what I call the one blanket of the universe Those things still are can still be experience. There's experience experience in itself but there's a very I think the very big distinction between experience and awareness or experiencing god consciousness as as an individual self in a center versus Experiencing experiencing itself without the experiencer which means that all the stages before oh, yeah You can you can deconstruct and dissolve the observer the awareness the consciousness The bride even the bride you can do some all that but they're still there But you are just not there But the experience of it is there it's a very big difference between experiencing that without us in the self versus Still having part of that experience, but you're solidified into That kind of called ego mind That's a very subtle distinction that a lot of people don't get but it's the difference is huge That's basically the difference between the the screen and become the screen and The video game at the same time Yeah Okay, so let's let's put that into The description in the game in the game analogy. So it would be that I Am a separate at the lowest level. I am a separate finite Player in the game and then it's in a sense recognizing that I am the awareness itself that is the Experiencer of not only this game but of beyond this game And then kind of recognizing that that awareness is shared and eternal That's sort of becoming more and more the screen itself That's modulating the different images of that game and the next games that come up So from being the finite Player in the game to being the screen And then in sort of the Though the last in a sense stage is both the nothing is both the absolute nothingness as well as the absolute Everythingness Right. Exactly. The screen merged with the game and the characters and but but but So basically well Yeah, there's there's a more screen at the third level There's more screen because the screen would be now goes to having the the observer the separate observer That's watching your thoughts. That would be the screen That's the thing that that's the v-pationalizer that we tend to v-pationalize the observer that we're trying to observe Because yeah, because what the observer is really is just more solidified sensations. That's clustered around You know either here in the between you know behind your eyes and your head or You know, it could be it could be like a jonic experience where it's like, you know It's like all bottomless space, but it's still there's still a bubble there. There's still a sense of solidity there And the point is to dissolve all solidity not just in the head not just outside, but everything So but before you can dissolve the solidity your this the solidity is always going to congeal itself into a new ground and in sort of So it's very tricky. It's very very tricky. Yeah, that's it's very frank says frank says the ego is a cheeky cunt It's a cheeky cunt So even solidity solidity is a cheeky cunt and it'll it'll come back Yeah, you come back. Yeah, but then after you've dissolved everything There are still going to be experiences where you can feel a little bit solidified to the next but You see or you experience them experientially at the cellular as empty you can still have conditions arise Due to every day, you know interaction with you know with some cara, but you realize some car is nabana It's very okay from before we both. I think we both just cut out for a moment Let's just rewind a couple sentences keep going from it's from the cheeky cuntness of the of the solidity coming back go ahead Okay, so Okay, what I was saying was after realization you could still have solidity coming back Due to everyday interaction with the world of some car, but you realize some car is nabana You see at the most cellular fundamental level that solidity and emptiness are saying there's no absolute difference And because of this realization your experience of solidity just goes down by 99.99 percent Yeah Yeah, so and this is also where science questions of holograms Everything as holograms. Yeah science Holograms Yeah And science has been a really fun in the last hundred years sort of You know donald hoffman call science the johnny come lately to the spiritual mystic traditions because Yeah, he's so i'm so spot on johnny come lately because um Because even quantum mechanics is saying that yeah, it's no thing that is then modulating and appearing as matter and form And then to recognize that voidness that nothingness as well as the everythingness There's just nothing outside of that that that's it. There's yeah Even the difference between dimensions people are like, oh, are we living in a simulation? How about the 5d dimension versus the 2d acid? There's no distinction. Yes. It's all nothing as manifesting as form That's just different in form. Yeah Yep, as in Probably just trying to take credit for infinity just like So you're just So literally taking credit pretending for a second that it's nothingness And that could be manifest into either the going self or you know the the observer or the god self But all those are labels Yeah, and there's the idea of wherever Fascinatingly enough simulation theory is is taking us which is so awesome Is just another in a sense Johnny come lately to the spiritual Mystic wisdoms which is basically now in a synthesis of of science and engineering and technology with spirituality Can say that it doesn't even matter what layer or what nesting hurdle we're talking about because it's all the that nothingness to that everythingness and Yeah, so So yeah, so so so what? We just like we're about to do right now frank. We fast forward like 10 years or 20 years. It's just going to be a Myriad of these kind of like indistinguishable virtual realities where you know, you'll pop in for You know and play a game and then you'll you know You'll switch into a different game on a potentially even a different planet different civilization different timeline Different blah blah and just jump between these simulations and and whatnot and and guess what stays the same The agent of observation what stays the same Just like in the dream at night when you go to sleep and you simulate out the dreamed environment Is very similar to what the manifested virtual reality world is like You know, we simulate out the observing agent and we simulate out the dreamed environment in in the dream world and so Yeah, so I find that all of that wisdom of dreams and video game simulations are all A way to express the nothingness to the everythingness the void to the infinitude. Is that about how you feel? Yeah, yep See the difference between what I think dream and reality or different dimension is again Difference in solidity, but once you realize it's so empty you can play around with different degrees of solidity So the only reason why I think this most people before realization think this Reality is critical real and that the dream is a dream is because dream is less solid Dream is more liquid. It's more, you know, there's more Walk around without consequences, you know Because it's just more liquidy. It's less solidified right and this reality is more solidified But it's it's just the degree of it that the same snow thing that makes up the dream in this world And if we would discover that there's another dimension out there And we have a simulated dimension it's just going to be the same It's just going to be the different configurations of solidity and different degrees of the solidity But all solidity are exactly the same as non-solidity. Anyway Yeah, so yeah, and it's it's the same with psychedelics actually psychedelics are a great tool Yes Of the Rick Bob they have a glimpse of the the absolute witness or the uh The the the awareness without the observer It's it's a great way to glimpse at it. But uh But the content of psychedelics is just a solidity of it the manifestation of the emptiness So if you get caught up in psychedelics caught up in the form without realizing that the form in the context The content of the context are exactly the same Then you could be chasing down a rapid haul that you never like you could be chasing more It's like a more outer state of the consciousness. It's going to be more more but Enlightenment is not really a level of consciousness is that which gives rise to all levels of consciousness in mind Yeah, which doesn't exclude anything by the way It's not like oh nightmare is distinct on top here because I saw this diagram is today. Um, David Hawkins Oh, yeah, the levels of consciousness. I saw you comment about that on your story He's been he's been a profound influence on On me as well But uh, go ahead because that was I think that was your first time sort of seeing the way that he had put it and so Yeah, it's been it's been a really powerful influence on many people Awakening to sort of what these elevated states of peace joy bliss as a natty state as a natural state Are and how even all this ego and shame and guilt and all that stuff are nowhere near as much of uh Of a natty state. Yeah, let me pull it. Let me pull it out Let me pull it out so people can see There we go I think a lot of people have seen this graph the states of consciousness You have enlightenment at the top enlightenment at the top and you have peace joy love Reason acceptance willingness neutrality courage pride anger desire and I can't I can't read the rest for the last one is shame Um consciousness level. I mean, it's really I mean it's a great graph. Um, I don't honestly I don't know that much about David Hawkins, but just from the I've seen someone I've read some of the Texts that people send me out here. Yeah, this guy got some real wisdom Uh, and the the graph the sometimes I like to pick like nitpick little things just to make people think outside the box I'm not saying that graph is wrong. Like I would put it that way too, but it's more like Enlightenment is not really at the top of the pyramid. It's more like the states that gives rise to the entire pyramid Yeah, it's interesting all the levels And just because you're at the enlightenment level or the knowing level in library doesn't mean that you can never feel shame That's just bullshit. You can still feel everything all the range of human emotion You can feel but after enlightenment you feel them from a completely different perspectives and the suffering really all the mystic traditions They really deliver what they predict they really deliver what they advertise my goal was never to eliminate suffering I just want to understand experience and consciousness But after the path or at least where I am right now out there There's more but it's the more for me right now is like going back after you beat the video game by a cheat code Yeah, yeah delivering you deliver rare candies to everybody like in pokemon You're delivering rare candies to help people level up the bodhisattva the tantric weave Of your realizations. Um, one of the one of the things that you mentioned there that's really important is sort of the There's a spiral dynamics as well from claire graves and don back in chris callan and even ken wilber and that Spiral dynamics has a very similar style of understanding as like levels of consciousness And at the top of the spiral dynamics is also that state of which you become the integration of Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and and the mystic traditions what they teach is they basically teach in a sense They teach of the pause you you create this pause. There's this gap that you create now so that you no longer React instantly to the different stimuli and get absorbed in the clouds But instead that pause that gap that you create through breath through that on a panna that awareness what happens is Is that then you? Observe the arising of the cloud of anger or shame or guilt or whatever and then you go I've already I already know what this is all about. I'm just bringing bliss peace love joy right period And so then it's sort of yeah getting into that you re-baseline yourself more and more towards and so this is why I I I struggle a bit with neo advaita teachings because the neo advaita pointing is that You know, you're you're already it you're all it's the non-dual real you you're already it you're already The as roomy said you go from room to room looking for the diamond that is already around your neck and And yet the sufi traditions they say yet it remains for you to recognize it It remains for you to recognize it and the buddha From 2,500 years ago taught a very systematic science To eradicating the suffering because you no longer attach yourself in the cloud so very much so in the neo advaita If you just say this is all a dream. I'm an illusion. This is all a dream and there's nothing for me to do There's nothing to seek. I'm already it then the ego the condom bubble in a sense may not ever have gotten Popped and so you may actually still butterfly effect out malevolence Because you haven't went through the process that maybe the buddha had taught for a while. How do you feel about stuff like that? Um, that's what I think you need to attack your skin infinity from all different angles Yes That's what I was saying about what I was saying earlier that a lot of people can get glimpses of the non-dual state Either by practicing, you know, neo advaita stuff or psychedelics But if they haven't with their industrial strength concentration, sit down, shut the fuck up go to release Dissolve their entire field of experience and that takes time that takes time It's not like it's a glimpse of it So you need to attack infinity from both sides until it close the loop on itself So I agree with that It's it's almost like you as a video game character You can sort of have a cheek call for a little bit and then realize i'm the screen But then without Actually dissolve your solidity Like a bodybuilder wrap a wrap wrap a wrap Day by day a year by year You're going to go back through you go itself And then a lot of times when you have a glimpse of it You actually become even more egoic because you're extrapolating that experience you had into the new grounds and yourself Into the new character that goes around telling other characters. Hey i'm the screen on the screen, but There's still a separation between him and the screen Or else he wouldn't be saying that right Yeah, yeah, so I really appreciate how you keep saying not only Tackling it from all these different sides and angles as we talked about with polemathy But also we've been using this gym analogy a lot the repetitions which is great And also you say closing the loop. I really like how you say and you use the douglas hoffs that are strange loop As well, I really like that because that's ultimately what these Uh, pretend, you know potential big bang big crunches big bangs big crunches are Yeah, yeah, and so the sensation is looping on itself without beginning and and the universe is a big sensation It's just different degrees already I love that the universe is a big sensation of of yeah of having sex with Oh man So yeah about the the non duality stuff. I think just also at the other side of the stream A lot of people can get stuck in the emptiness of they they can get stuck in the buddha stuff I've seen people that go to the postmodern retreats over and over again for 10 years 20 years This haven't realized they're they're a meditator inside the head I know I know Okay Yeah, like if you can just tell those people a few men relax a little bit Do some headless way stuff, you know, listen to some newman That that would you know, that's why when I tell my fitness client, you know, what is power power is speed time strength Right, so as an athlete like a sprinter a sprinter runs fast because he has a lot of power He has both speed and strength Because sprinting is not just pure speed. It's it's power So if you want to be a good sprinter, you have to lift weights Strong and squat and you have to do some parametric stuff ox jumps reactivity stuff And then you transfer that into power speed time strings power A lot of people only have one side of the equation and it just need to do a little bit more of the other side of the creation People that are really good to be passionate and really good at concentration stuff There are like strength athletes. They're like they have a lot of the strength, but they're not transferring that strength into speed Speed is more like the the zone change some of the parametrics of the mind It's more like, you know, the headless with glimpse the word the word is practice. We're just kind of, you know Sort of like, you know, turn your words on itself That's the speed of the word is and then you have the passion out of the concentration in the strength times the speed of Parametric of the mind you go you get a power athlete and awakening is power Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's that's great. That's why Yeah that's why Sheila samadhi and panya are sort of these three buddhist Style principles that are so fundamental. You have to have the morality. The morality is critical because the morality and the Awakening feedback on each other They do the more moral you are the more easiest to awaken the more awakened you get the more easiest to be moral Right and so you get that feedback And then the concentration has a lot to do with Actually being able to calm yourself down to the Economity to be able to see the clouds forming and dissolving the anitra there the impermanence And then you get the panya you get the insight you get the vipassana in the sense the true insight into the nature of reality and being when you Kind of do enough repetitions and you also do Polymath you go and you do repetitions here and you do repetitions here and you do and you do You know you do these kinds of repetition and you do, you know, yes Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you you work out the whole body Right, you don't there's so many body builders that will only do chest, right? But you've got to do your legs also, right? That's that's a huge funny meme in the aesthetics bodybuilding world and it's the same thing Here as well if you don't know the How A micro dose of magic mushrooms will uh will interplay with the Realizations that you've that you've had so far with your weightlifting that that that's that's it's that's its own style of of of you know, that's its own style of weightlifting and dance And so you you gain all these different styles of dance and art to form this masterpiece the the sufi metaphysics have a Have a The phrase it goes uh wadat al wujud. It means the it means the unity of all finding Right the unity of all infinity closing the loop on itself You can yeah, you can enter that you can close the loop any way you want really exactly and that's the thing There's unique styles. It's it's the unique styles. That's why that's why wadat al wujud is so important because every single expression of infinity has its own unique style of closing the loop on itself That's why you have your own unique style of realizing the one end and This expression has its unique style of closing the loop. And so that's what that's why That's what I understand as the reason why lila happens Is the big game of hide and seek the big game of realization for infinity to go through You how does that feel? so that See a lot of people ask if awakening is the same and everyone are different It's both different and the same because the difference arise through the unity It's neither unity because you say oh, there's only one is there's only unity. That's the ground right there That's an extreme you take the middle way the middle way is that which transcends the dualities Right, so it's both in either unity or separateness. They call it depending on rice So everybody's experience of emptiness is the same But how you fill that emptiness with form is different reconfigurations of it, but I would like But then at the same time emptiness is form So it's always going to be the same and different and each a lot of people like I love Jim Newman But I find that some of the non dualities are too extreme a little bit unsettling for people that are still on the path It is true that there's nothing to do. It is to that. You don't even even need to meditate because it No, no meditation. No, jonik states Uh can't touch infinity There's just going to be like a little mosquito facing on infinity even the most mind-blowing psychedelic experience But if you tell people that there's nothing to do when they're still on the path, so that's a good reminder But once in a while, but I've never met anybody except for maybe one out five million geniuses That didn't have to do anything to wake up Even though it is your nature. So Um, what was it going with that? I was talking about something else before that Well, we were talking about those unique styles and I just I think of A really good way to hit the ball back on what you were just saying is the Simultaneity, which is really important I I feel there's a lot of people that sort of get stuck and I think Ventini was also mentioned this before as well. It's almost like the non duality police It's like it's it's only non duality period and yes Simultaneously is the dualistic concession Where there? Yeah, where you do have the egoic bubble over people's heads the condom And that there is a process of popping that condom bubble that people are walking around in and that's what the mystic traditions teach As these gym repetitions to do that and then also another part of the dualistic concession is what is taught in Physics as well with electromagnetism And it's also taught with that rhythmic balanced interchange between the forces And that's what was called the gunas as well in the Sanskrit You have you have these most fundamental units that create the ascension that happens of What's happened in the billions of years that has gotten us to the point where infinity can be recognizing why it's here doing what it's doing and yeah, and so So that was critical the simultaneity is also i'm curious to see what you feel about this I think it's really important, but it'll be interesting to see how you feel about it is that Sometimes the the Jim Newman and tony parson's and neo advaita can can they there can be sometimes this very blunt like the the individual is Only a complete illusion and dream You don't exist That's it done and and that that kind of that doesn't take in to account the Simultaneity or the Jedi like ability to go from all of the phases of water from the steam the vapor to the The boiling and the and the water at the room temperature and slowly becoming ice the either egoic ice so the point of that point is to say that Simultaneity can be thought of in a sense as non duality as the ultimate and then the dualistic concession Like we were just talking about a moment ago and then the individuation is is seen as both a Dream as an illusion there being no center At the same time as being a unique firework like infinity makes these fireworks So that we can have this firework about itself And yeah, and so and so that's why you it's instead of completely saying fuck all the form The form is an illusion. Fuck all the form instead of saying that It's basically the east telling the west that it's wrong But that's not how I see I see the east and the west is coming together as one So you're both a non dual east and you're the western Beautiful individuated firework of infinity. How do you feel about that? Exactly because what there's nothing off limit with infinity infinity has to include The not the finite the infinity has to include the individual Right, so who is it that says there's no Jim Newman Jim Newman With big letters Jim Newman there's nobody here No, I'm not I love Jim Newman. I really love the guy. I like I we people like that We need people like who are the ones that extreme to tell people to tell the people who are doing a lot of Departure now without realizing that Departure Hey, man We need people like that, but I'm sure he realizes I'm sure that's part of this the way he's that's part of his clinical brand I'm sure he realizes it But but that's how he chooses to express infinity and the way we choose to express infinity Is that we emphasize the form with the emptiness not over the emptiness, but with the emptiness Yeah, so I think you know, I think the view it's about it's about the Flexibility of the view you can both and simultaneously be a person and not be a person depends on a situation Beyond conditions There's no reason to think that no cell view is the ultimate view because you start you're staying on another ground But then again, you have to realize that view because before you can say that's not the only ground, right? So you have to realize it first and then you have that lever to play around with But then at that point after you realize no cell when you have a corner yourself when you have when you continue into a character It doesn't feel like self anymore Yeah Would would you Yeah, total would would you then use the word? You know, simultaneity as the sort of one of the best ways to explain this. Okay. Yeah, I think so I think so because even robber be a hero the book called emptiness seen seen freeze The whole book is about emptiness, but he keep emphasizing that when emptiness is empty even the distinction between illusion and Reality is in and of self an illusion even fabrication is a fabrication Because if everything is a fabrication and nothing's fabrication if everything is a dream, then nothing's a dream, right? So even he said that it's very even though he emphasizes no self and emptiness a lot Even he said that's just one view out of infinite numbers of views that you can have this Inevitable inevitable so He said that it's not it's not exactly healthy to just abide in the no self view with 24 7 because then that's when you get a Spiritual bypass, you know, and then it's very easy to become an asshole Yeah, well, you just operate on that non dual 24 7 no self state It's also very easy to be an asshole when you're only in the self egoic state exactly why I am Bringing up simultaneity because when you because buddha today would be in a sense Uh, if people were solely saying that this is emptiness dancing There's nothing for me to do period Then that would be the buddha You know saying that let listen, you know, there's a way literally for you to end suffering for yourself And not just say that it's emptiness dancing. I can be in a goic malevolent asshole if it, you know There's a way to calm that down to water that flame fire. Yeah, so i'm i'm glad The simultaneity and then another way to talk about that is like a jedi a jedi The jedi knows how to be at all of these layers. Yeah shape That's another good way shape shifting or another good way is um, the biblical story of joseph and the code of many colors as well, it's it's like the shape shifter and um So there's a lot of It's like a cosmic octopus The cosmic octopus that's interesting. Where did that? Where'd you get that one from? Well, I first got that from I used to like octopus a lot because I heard I heard this talk by Terrence McKinnon. Yeah, Terrence McKinnon said um He said like he really liked the octopus because the octopus is not It's what he didn't really get him not to wildly perceive But he said the octopus wears his mind or his thoughts on his body He turns the inside out and the outside in So the octopus's body his identity is a reflection of the environment and he's constantly shape shifting And I took the analogy a bit further and we said that this state right here The state of the state of the state of state or whatever this is It feels like you are a cosmic octopus with no body with no center So it's almost like this the buddha with like a thousand arms and a thousand eyes Yeah, there's none you have this 360 and ready me a vision and you have those Tentacles are like not every sensation even the cause outside the cause the cause I hear even you seeing you There's different tentacles of sensations. That's looking back on itself And I like that so I like that It's it's just like yeah Yeah, yeah It's so in a sense the cosmic octopus is kind of like when the tentacles are out everywhere imaginable in all of the infinite creation And yet is also the void I see the span the cosmic octopus can be thought of as the span Whereas the jedi or shape shifter or just from the coating many colors. It's across all the layers Simultaneously, that's that's that's that's that's the core. I think there and then Would it be would it be fair then to say It it would be fair to say that on repeat. We're just Void to form form to void Infinite amount here. Let me also Let me also put it this way How many different ways can you color a blank canvas Different numbers of ways How many different ways can you arrange musical notes into a song? infinite numbers of ways How many different ways can you vibrate your vocal chords to make language? infinite numbers of ways How many different ways can you modulate a movie screen to make movies? infinite numbers of ways and so this is the this is I think this has been the most easy way For me when I talk to people Because as soon as I start asking them those questions, they almost get glimpses into infinity Right as I'm asking them the questions That's very interesting man I think we we're coming We're talking about the same thing but in a different from different sides You're talking about like the the impermanent like every moment is different kind of side I'm talking about like the the physicality of like the the looping of it, but they're the same Yeah, but they're the same so so it's most like It's okay So when people ask you to describe what the rick pot is or the natural state is You can't give them the description at all because it's like What the natural state is it's like you get a second different You get a different psychedelic from a different planet every nanosecond That's the after real is a different psychedelic from a different planet every nanosecond. Oh my god. Okay, keep going psychedelic After realization, it's just like Trippy bro, you know, you never know what you're gonna get the next moment Even though it's already like that but before you tend to solidify experiences into into boxes But now without a box really every fucking moment I have no fucking clue what we're gonna do next It's so exciting. It's just like oh my gosh. I can't I can't stop thinking about this Okay, so we were just talking about all of the different ways you can color a blank canvas or arrange musical notes into a song So you got to think about all of the different ways that we could create A planet orbiting a star that would then secrete The entheogens and psychedelics and also the humans that would then eat them and whatnot and so you're saying that Every single nanosecond You're basically taking a different entheogen psychedelic from a different creation a different planet secretion And eating that and experiencing that profound of a state of of voidness to infinity And that's the emptiness in form is infinite empty. You find the form the emptiness the emptiness in form And that answers Yeah, yeah, the heart's true. Yeah, the heart's future. No, I really like the way that That that was described that that is basically in essence What it is it's like a kundalini. It's like a permanent kundalini um Tori et al awakening like you were sort of showing in those different Visualizations on on the device. It's almost like you live. It's like everybody lives in that cosmic storm feeling But only those that have quote awakened or enlightened basically become Full time aware Of the that notion of the centerless Insanity of lila cosmic storm whereas when you live on the gross condom level You don't recognize that because you're not subtle enough To recognize it because the universe as it as it fucks itself that you're doing it with this condom over your head And so you're not getting any of the sensation of that. Yeah of something Oh my gosh, oh my god, that was so good a different Actually Rolled out a few analogies. I want to share with you because yeah, let's do it Let's do it. So I'll throw it out at the analogy out for you and then you can you know hit the tennis ball back Okay So number one is we talked about it an invisible cosmic octopus with no body Um and second wise Let's let's start with there. So so one moment. So the invisible cosmic octopus with nobody Okay, with no center with no center. Okay. And then what was the what's the second one? The second one is that we I think we talked about this very also as a cosmic storm without an eye Oh, that was a good one too cosmic storm without an eye Yeah Okay, and the third one the thousand I and on buddha Thousand I and armed buddha. Have you seen that you've seen those sculptures the statues, right? Yeah with all of the the arms Of the arms and then he has a head on the head on the head on the head and all the different heads 360 but then each 360 also has another back another fractal a bit Yeah, it's a really good Uh physical visualization Artistic representation of the state. I would say of infinity. That's great. And And you're aware of the Mandelbrot infant fractal zoom right been one Mandelbrot Fractal zoom. Yeah. Yeah. I saw it. I think I saw it in some of your your work That's another one that I tell people straight up when they want to know what the state is like is just check out the video infinite infinite zoom mobius strip Yeah, like Yeah, so so yeah, and then those visuals are some of this some of the some of the stuff The Klein bottle the Klein bottle is another one with the mobius strip I don't know if I've seen that k l Let me look at it right now. Yeah k l k l e i n Bottle k l e i n bottle. Oh, yeah, there we go same thing. Yeah That's a great one. That's another one. Yeah In that that that kind of in that does really the toroidal style of big bang big crunch Yeah, yeah, so it's like quiz the different colors you can fill in there. That's a great one, bro Yeah, that's the one that air specifically eric Weinstein has been a big proponent of of that one Um, are you familiar with his work eric Weinstein? I've heard of his name, but I don't think I've ever listened to him He's kind of pretty ninja like around the math and the physics around infinity also, which is interesting You know who garret lisi is he's another one that's kind of They're they're both on kind of the math and physics around infinity expressing itself. Um, and then Um, that's what you haven't yeah when we talked about it in the beginning of the constitution before we go live It's like a lot of those really smart guys the physicists the artists even drug addicts the writers They're at the edge of enlightenment Even cunning west I think yep They're at the edge of their mind, but they don't have the proper techniques to transcend it That's what also said Beethoven Sartre, Virginia Woolf Um, all those guys Nietzsche all those guys will be enlightened beings if they were to from the west Oh, sorry from the east Yep, but in today's world, we have the perfect opportunity to enlighten us. We have the internet, bro internet Exactly exactly. So I So so so spot on I want to I want to address your what you were what you brought up a moment ago But you're so right that there's a In a sense, it's kind of like what we can do in service to the awakening is we can play the tennis with these different leaders Which we'll talk about more Uh afterward um a briefly on on the call But just the idea is that if we can take infinity expressing itself to the leadership around the world like Um, there's 2,200 billionaires around the planet and there's you know 225,000 ultra high net worth people around the planet and there's 200 people in the un general assembly fortune 500 CEOs 535 people in u.s congress Basically the point is that there's all these different world leaders that have a butterfly effect out on so many people around the planet And so one of the things that we can do is that if we can Enter into dialectic with them, whether it be, you know, conny west is a good one where like you were describing there's so many people on this brink and that to sort of Help them recognize it in the most childlike Analogies is a massive part of the gift To bring so that that's a critical one that I think we'll talk about more afterward I really like what you were saying. Um, I think This is probably a way that Uh, you and I will end up collaborating on is helping the visualization Of the nature of reality. Um, have you also seen the? Have you seen alex gray's art? Yes, I think The history of also comes pretty close to some of the yes and you know the net of being that one It's like injera's net the net of being it has all of the different, um heads Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah That one yeah right there and it's like what you were saying with that thousand eyed Um, yeah, yeah, so so I like these visualizations. I think that's a good one the cosmic storm without an eye is a really good one as well um and It's another one. Yeah, I think What what what was the last one? God deejaying itself Oh god deejaying Itself like disc jockeying music. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good Okay, here's another one that you like. I think here's another one a sculpture Sculpting itself until the clear line of awareness peers It sounds like Michael Angelo, you know how he said the form of the sculptures already inside the bark marble And you just need to chip away the unnecessary Uh Parts of it and then we're doing that with spirituality with we're sculptor sculpting ourselves and then inside the sculpture Is the clear line of awareness that's infinite and boundless And the funny thing is Speciality is the only thing that you have the only task the only task You can do where you can have your cake and eat it too I always say spirituality you have your cake and you eat it too You can still pick up you can still do bodybuilding, you know That's the only thing that you can do where you can become shredded and At the same time you stretch yourself into an atom Smiling out of it, but at the same time you gain your your your dama body of infinity into absolute infinite space you get shredded and You you you you you bark and cut at the same time Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good way to put it is that you Um, and that's sort of what I meant by like what that all would you when I kind of had my like little profound In december this kind of like a macro level satori was a It was very much like seeing the entire planet undergoing the process of that like you described the sculptor sculpting itself until The enlightened or awakened a recognition of the loop of infinity closing on itself In that recognition and so that was yeah, that was I think that one's really profound I agree that it's like having your cake and eating it too god deejaying itself was good um, so we'll we'll have to keep artistically also I would another thing is um If you can and I know you're already doing this in a in a sense, but um taking and constantly You know visualizing this more and more on your channels and disseminating the visualizations more and more and so we'll we'll do because I mean we're making animated series We're making um long form content as well short form content to I always wanted to do that Yeah, we're I feel like we're gonna end up um covering on that as well. You're uh, you have about uh couple Dozens of minute you have like a dozen minutes left to serve so because you need a little bit of time to get to your um Your appointment. Oh, we can uh the appointment is at 12 30. So I could probably end at 12 Exactly and be good. Okay. Cool. So let's wrap with I got a couple more visuals that one do it do it. Let's do it one of them is Your body my your me suit And all the objects that you perceive the clouds and trees even the floor are become mosquitoes There's just mosquitoes flying around the infinite bra Oh, interesting the so everything Is like mosquitoes flying around the infinite bra Yeah, so basically before you were the mosquito Before you were only the mosquito, but now after you shift perspective to the dama kaya to the dama body of The infinite bra all the all the sensation your entire body might be awakening Even the the cars outside The the also the buildings all become so small because you have to get people to visualize Yeah, you you literally be your new identity becomes the sky and all this all these different Objects in the world are just mosquitoes flying around your new dama body But at the same time there's no distinction again because the the the the mosquitoes are just Emptiness vibrating into form. It's the made up the same thing as the skies and the clouds and the trees. Yeah So Yeah That's another good one. Okay Okay, there's one more. There's one more Well, this is what I think is pretty similar to the kind of energy that you had on your channel And when you said the necklace it's like having a hundred dollar bills in your pocket all the time You're just pulling one out after another like every time every day you say Every time you want to glimpse it at the absolute you just pull out a hundred dollar bill So it's kind of like the infinite wallet or Yeah, pretty much the infinite wallet Ah, this is great. Okay I like this. I like this a lot. Yeah, I feel I feel like it's super Bring it to the childlike level of playful visual understanding which we definitely It's it'll accelerate. Yeah the visualization is going to accelerate And amplify. Yeah made big time big time. That's the core that I've noticed by the way the geniuses that have lived before now They've been focused on that deeply as well is visualizing the refined distillations of metaphysics The Einstein was a visual artist man like he's general theory of relativity. It's all about visualization He thought experiments Because humans are visually animals and why do you say the seeing all seeing eye the wisdom eye That this whole thing is about a way of seeing a way of perception Even though even though awareness goes beyond just seeing it, but it's almost like that's just one unified sense store As this all seen eye that just transcends any individual or a specific sense or like the visual sense or like the audio sense The awareness in a way it's kind of like just gots eye gots eye without an eye the awareness Yeah, it's a thing that goes beyond seeing Anyway, so there's another there's two more that I think that's what you're gonna like this one Have you seen a pacific rim like the the movie pacific rim? Yeah, yeah, it's probably been a bit. But yeah, okay So it's like it's like uh, it's kind of like this the entire um So it's like this dude I'll read what I wrote It's kind of like the robot you become the giant robot suit in pacific rim Except at this suit is the entire cosmo with absolutely no gap and no separation and distance between humans objects in sky mountains Moon and the sun and all its parts are working harmony and doing its best to make every action you perform And every thought that you have an absolute perfection in an interconnected interdependent way And there's no driver inside the the the robot as it's just doing itself as itself Okay, okay, so I like So in a sense in a sense it can be interchangeable the pacific rim analogy can be potentially interchangeable with maybe the avengers With the like the superheroes Style recognize that you are the infinite bra superhero type thing um, yeah, and and that um And that there's no separation in the cosmic storm of infinite bra superheroes Yeah, yeah, it's just one superhero with different parts and this one I think it's good for representing like the interconnectivity of it like The different originations of it how like every event has like an infinite webs of conditions that connect to different infinite webs of conditions because the sue is kind of like, you know, it's like Kind of like dr. Octopus too Yep, dr. Octopus guess what dr. Octopus looks like the thousand arm Buddha Yeah Do we see come on with the fucking like infinite bra superhero that just embodies all the stuff that we talk about I agree. I agree That's another really good It's like the The the the infinite bra superhero is a really good way I'll tell I'll tell you why The psychological literature is really clear that young kids Really love superheroes a lot And so if we make this infinite bra superhero when we make this and then yeah, it's it's it's really good. It's a really good idea It's like it's a mom mom dad. I want to be the infinite bra. Yeah Yes, yes, yes But then it's really important to not to just make sure that it's not externalized like That's the infinite bra superhero, but not not me. I'm not yeah, exactly Yeah, you have to realize that we're all iron man or whatnot. Yeah. Yeah type thing. Yeah, we're all but none of it Yeah, yes And that's why that's why at least with my last example Woman metaphor, which is you are just an invisible you're you're the invisible man like the the the the invisible main character from from that You're just the invisible man But all the sensations the side the clouds the buildings the trees the floor the the people are just the the clothes that you slap on They're just like the mask that you wear. Yep. Yep. So even your body your ego your your mind other people's thoughts Every since she experienced an entire war are just clothes that you put on even space and time And awareness and observer are just different clothes that you slap on and this this bean is invisible Yeah, and that's the infinite bra out there That's perfect perfect so so so in so in essence the The infinite bra superhero that we just talked about the invisible man Is both I love it. I love it. It's both no form and all four Exactly It all comes naturally. I mean all we can I think we can end it here All comes down to the interplay between form and emptiness Exactly Form emptiness if you realize this like the experiential and cellular level moment to moment There's there's nothing more like everything comes down to for emptiness And it's the it's and it's lila of form and emptiness That's it does come down to the heart sutra But also it's lila the the play component of it. It's like like orabindo says It's the childlike laughter of the infinite The childlike laughter of the infinite the lila the lila component to the range of emptiness to all form all the No form to all form. Yeah, so that's it does come down to that and that's that's the one end and that's why it's like All the way back to the heart sutra, but all the way up to infinite brah is all that same recognition one end. Yeah You know, uh, you know the sutra after the heart sutra Basically the heart sutra is the theravada stuff, right that the the vipassana path After that we have the bhajana and the bhajana. There's their heart sutra their main sutra I don't know why it's called. I forgot why it's called. Is it the diamond sutra I'm not sure but it's super psychedelics It's like when you read it you can be put into a psychedelic trends Like the way they describe like the buddha being like lying with like 10,000 infinite faces and like each like each each like adam Contest the entire universe like there's all these different beings and You know, you know what i'm talking about though those zochen, bhajana, muhajana art like Yeah, the reason why that came after the theravada is because That's the the antithesis or the response or form to emptiness Yes, the previous theravada phase Yes, so not just individually as individuals we go through these different cycles of form and emptiness and then the combination of the two even as a as a whole as a civilization as a religious tradition In itself goes through these different phases You have the hinduism of the brahman and then you have the emptiness of buddhism Try to refute that and in synthesizing both you have the bhajana and the zochen and the muhajana Where it says don't stand on either side of the nihilism of emptiness or nothing is don't stand on the side of eternalism and the absolutism of common Find the middle way that can sense and include both Yep, that's it. Yeah exactly exactly and and today We have the technology to animate and simulate and create At the most experiential pedagogical level, especially for kids and adults these visualizations Of all no form to all form And that is going to be what unlocks the the diamond Around each neck. Yeah. Yeah, so let's let's let's jump on we'll jump on our call and unpack that Visualization more. I want to thank thank you. Frank. This was perfect. Thank you Wait, how is your real name? So my my my birth name was actually arcazi alan sakyan, which is Armenian And yeah, yeah, and then and then and then I and my middle my middle name's alan So I did went by that for a while and then as I sort of shed the Identity it transitioned to atlas and then just one name atlas and then even The last like three plus months have basically been like even that's gone Now there's no Form or name attached to the identity. There's that the identity is no form to all form not even a layer called atlas So, um, but yeah, so so that and then frank yang was that your also? What was your birth name and you're in taiwan right now are your parents both, uh taiwanese Where where yeah, so walk us through that quick also Um, I'm my dad is in taiwan. Um, my mom is in the new west and right now I'm just telling because I can't really I can't really go back to us right now because of the dynamic And taiwan is one of the second places in the war right now. So I'm just totally here Yeah, and so they're lineage Your lineage is both mom and dad are taiwanese Yeah, they're both taiwanese Okay, okay cool, and then and then um was frank yang the american what was what was the taiwanese like birth name also What was uh the taiwanese birth name is yang yang shiyi yang shiyi That's my original og taiwanese the chinese name Yang shiyi on the path for for my american passport is frank yang I like what you say about not even having atlas bro I feel the exact same way just like the way this thing i'm before this frank And then you're like, oh, there's a character here. That's not okay, but even the character is dissolving Right now, I just feel like I used to be oh this character wants to do this, but there's no character There's not even a brah Yeah But then you have to stand out and be able to talk about this. So you have to pick and choose your clothes Yeah, so so that's another thing that um, we'll discuss is that the geopolitical relationship between like the us and china I was there in 2019 doing partnership interviews and I loved my experience in china And I really am excited about bringing together peace india china Saudi Arabia russia brazil all these different kind of powerhouses just working together to recognize that You know this infinite brah in nature so Imagine frank frank and atlas at the un fucking talking about infinite brah and everybody's Microdosing magic mushrooms. Yeah, go ahead You know, who's the opposite of if I brah um Hello, trump. Oh, yeah. Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. But they're the same really Yes, same. Yeah. Yep. It's the same just like when you When when you are 100% ego that means you have no ego Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah, but if you're only 99 percent, you're still ego Yeah, yeah, yeah, you you're um, you're the you know, we'll keep we'll keep hitting Yeah, we'll keep we'll keep hitting this this ball back. Thank frank. Thank you and And I just He's he's surprised the biggest ego maniac. He's so such a big ego to maniac His ego is a sense of affinity that has no science. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, we'll we'll keep okay. Yeah, let's um, so just quick I just want to end I want to end the episode by saying everybody. Um, I highly recommend checking out both Frank's youtube channel the link is in the bio below He has really exceptional content on there go and watch that and also follow him on instagram He has great stories and great content He posts there including all these visualizations of infinitude as well as sort of step by step understandings of how to recognize like we talked about um the The juxtaposition between the clouds in the sky and then plucking out even the last thorn of awareness itself Then no form to all form type He he impacts that great. So go and go and follow and check him out. Let us know how you think about The conversation below leave us a comment. We would love to hear from you Leave us a comment like the video if it brought you value subscribe or follow across all platforms Share the content with other people so more people can see sort of an unpack what we're talking about with awakening enlightenment And whatnot and that's it. That's all folks. We love you very much Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you Frank. This is so great I've been doing a lot of podcasts recently, but this one is I don't know this one is something else then Yeah, and that's what that's what i'm gonna talk to you about right now after this is doing this type of stuff a little bit More frequently, we'll explore that here in a bit much love. Thanks everybody Talk to you soon Thanks everyone all the infinite bras all the infinite bras Bye