 Thanks for joining us for the continuation of today's live setting of the House of Assembly. We now take you over to the House Speaker, Honourable Andy Daniel, for the official commencement of today's sitting. I beg to remind Honourable Members that when the House last rose, the motion in debate, was that Parliament authorized the Minister of Finance to borrow US $16,192,000 from the Caribbean Development Bank for the purpose of financing the Saint Lucia Education Quality Improvement Project, and be it fully resolved that, A, in case of the special funds resources portion, one, the loan is repayable in 80 equal and approximately equal and consecutive quarterly installments on each due date of the first day of January, the first day of April, the first day of July, and the first day of October of each year, commencing the first due date after the expiration of five years following the date of the loan agreement, one such little due date as a bank may specify in writing, and two, the interest is payable at a rate of 2.5% per annum withdrawn and outstanding on the amount of the special funds resources portion, B, in case of the ordinary capital resources portion, one, the loan is repayable in 48 equal or approximately equal and consecutive quarterly installments on each due date of the first day of January, the first day of April, the first day of July, and the first day of October of each year commencing on the first due date after the expiration of five years following the date of the loan agreement on such little due date as the Caribbean Development Bank may specify in writing, two, the interest is payable at a rate of 2.97% per annum withdrawn and outstanding on the amount of the ordinary capital resources portion, and three, a commitment charge at a rate of 1% per annum is payable quarterly on the amount of the ordinary capital resources portion on withdrawn and which accrues from the 60th day following the date of the loan agreement. Honourable member for V4 South. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, although I missed part of the earlier part of the debate on this motion before the House this morning, and this afternoon rather, I understand that my colleagues have rehearsed the history and have given some indication of how this loan came about, and from what I have gathered, no one on this side of the House has spoken against this loan in any significant or material way. There is of course, understandably disagreement as to how the loan should be utilised and for what purposes and for what, that apart, there is no major disagreement in principle or otherwise with the procurement by the government of this loan because the negotiations commenced with the former government and in fact it emerged out of some degree of agreement with the former government. That being said, Mr. Speaker, there will always be issues of disappointment and for me I think one disappointment has to do with the fact that in this early stage of the loan and given the closure of the B program, the eminent closure of that program, it has run its that the opportunity was not taken to invest very early in the Denata School to build a new school for the students of Denata. I think that is a very, very, very rare disappointment because I think we really need to come to terms in our Parliament and in the country as a whole with the way we handle and treat disabled children in our community and the issues regarding disabled or challenged children as a whole. And when I go back into the administration of education in St. Lucia, I think it is fair to say that policy makers have had emotional and sometimes intellectual difficulty in terms of deciding what to do with our challenged students and what degree of investment we should put in them. And I am not at this stage blaming any administration although I have a profound disappointment that the allocation to disabled families was reduced so significantly as occurred. I think that is a travesty because really that grant should have been doubled but that is another issue. There are so many issues regarding how we handle such children and I repeat that there has been a lot of restlessness. I don't think we ourselves have been as sure as we should be about what are the policy positions to take and how to approach the problems that exist with disabled or challenged students. The former Minister Dr. Robert was did a correct thing on the initiative of the Caribbean Development Bank at the time and as you heard from my colleagues to visit Barbados to look at the Barbadian school plant because they have invested heavily in education for challenged students, disabled students over time. And coming out of this is the report that reference was made to this morning. There are really so many issues regarding disabled children that I think it would take far more than a loan of this magnitude to resolve those particular kinds of issues. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that there are so many practices occurring in our education system that are wrong. I mean quite often than not, we do not regard teachers of disabled children as professionals in their own right possessing certain kinds of skills. Instead, sometimes we believe that even within the school system you give teachers deliberately to teach children who are challenged who have difficulties for the very simple reason that the administration of these schools figure that it will make less demand on the various teachers, it wouldn't be difficult, etc. Of course that's patently false because there are very rare challenges that occur from time to time. But despite all the training over the years, we do not have a ready pool of talent that is available. There has been some training in the past but simply not enough. But there's a new phenomena developing within the school system and that is a phenomenon that I want to spend a few moments on addressing. That is to say that the school system is now being challenged by students or by children who do not necessarily fall on the side of the challenge or disabled but who have major behavioral problems. And the school system is at a quandary as to what to do with these children. And while for me I am limited by what I can see on this matter because I represent parents, one particular parent in one case so I have to be cautious and careful, but it points to a deeper problem. For example, if these students emerge as having behavioral problems, you get referrals being made to the wellness center that these students have been asked to go to the wellness center for evaluation. I just want to say to you Mr Speaker, can you imagine the trauma of sending a nine-year-old, 11-year-old, 12-year-old to the wellness center to be evaluated by one of the psychiatrists at the wellness center? And these things are occurring in the school system at the moment. And these are students with behavioral problems that really the school system does not know how to handle or what to do with these students because the teachers within the school are totally at a seat, totally at a loss as to how they should tackle these problems. Now you'll be amazed Mr Speaker, the kinds of issues and I'm not going to digress but to emphasize the peculiarity of the problem. Only yesterday I had a discussion with some parents who were pointing out and or some individuals rather and I wouldn't of course name them parents and daughter children and they were making the point for example that there have been incidents in the school system where children have been made the challenges to their teachers and to their principals, they're exhibiting very antisocial behavior. And when in one instance the confidence of particular child was secured, the child in confidence told the individual concerned, well one of the things that happened is that on mornings I'm often given marijuana tea for the day. Now I want to make it very clear that I'm of one of those who believe that the point we have reached the point where we have to decriminalize, there's no question about it. The momentum is unstoppable and whether we like it or not we will have to move in that direction especially what is happening in the rest of the Caribbean and of course evening or main source markets in Canada and in the United States. Now whether it's an issue that the entire society has to discuss but the reality of that situation is that you already have antigua moving a certain direction, Jamaica has gone in a certain direction and others are rapidly following. Now I say this Mr. Speaker to point out that if the day comes when there is decriminalization the country will face major public health issues and the challenge will be in the short term to handle the public health issues that arises. So for example the kind of problem that you would have with a child being sent to school with a marijuana tea in the morning is a public health issue and of course it would seem to me that the parent who is involved in this matter really should have engaged not just counselors but others to point out the very real danger that is occurring but here is a parent attempting to deal with some behavioral problems of a child but she is creating more behavioral problems as a direct result and what is happening is that the school system does not have the capacity to address problems like that affecting our children. Now they are not and I repeat they are not children who are disabled, they are not children who are challenged but they are children who have been socialized into a certain social environment, they have been children who are encountering particular difficulties at home and they are children who therefore manifesting this antisocial behavior in the classroom, in the school environment but the school does not know how to deal with it. Well alcohol as well I mean is an issue and at least alcohol is being dealt with as I said as a public health issue in much the same way that the day marijuana is ever decriminalized then it will become a public health issue. Mr. Speaker I say this to make two points first when this project was originally conceived the principal emphasis really was on dealing with children who are challenged for one reason or another who are disabled for one reason or another and of course the early stages of preschool education. It seems that there has been some shift in focus and my regret is that even if you had some shift in focus that the opportunity was not taken to construct a new school for the children who are disabled because of the unusual difficulties you have had with Donata. Mr. Speaker I am aware that an area of land has been made available to the association in question next to the impolite Louisie primary school but I suspect that there has been a little progress in moving towards the construction of a replacement school. I really hope that this is a matter that we can take on board and can be taken on board very very early and very very quickly. The second reason Mr. Speaker why I am making this intervention is to is this issue of the children with behavioral challenges and the report out of Barbados prepared by the former minister and his staff did make the observation which I think is eminently sensible that in Barbados the government has developed particularly particular centers throughout the island in key in key positions and they start those centers with counselors they staff them with doctors and social workers of course as well as as teachers but what happens is that once the child has been identified as a child with a behavioral problem or behavioral disorder the child is then sent to those centers for guidance and for instruction and hopefully reintegration in the school system. I think this is really a very sensible approach and while I hear they just in time to have a member from Miku North enunciate and elucidate on some of the interventions that will occur which of course includes policy formulation etc. I hope that this is one suggestion that can be actively pursued especially in the urban center in the north because it cannot ever ever be right for children with behavioral problems to be sent to the mental wellness center for evaluation. Likewise Mr. Speaker you ask do we have any clinical psychologists who look after children do we have any child psychologists and the answer is that they are exceedingly difficult and rare and cannot be easily found so most parents then what they do is to try and get hold of counselors for some guidance and for some advice with the result that that can only be a partial solution if only for the very simple reason that behavioral problems of children are so very complex and so very difficult that a special kind of expertise is needed to deal with it. Now whether the approach by the government has amputated the options here is of course a point for reflection because my understanding was and is that the former government had in fact asked the CDB for a more substantial sum of money for this program but the current government in its wisdom decided to reduce the amount that was requested and while reducing the amount that is requested identified other priorities within of course the existing known program. I just hope that along the way we can rethink this somewhat and even if you're going to eventually get a consultant to give you some policy options and policy priorities that would begin to move on to some of these existing problems that we have because it is these experiences that are making the lives of teachers and principal and even parents unbearable because there are parents out there who simply do not know what to do and they believe that once they encounter these problems then the solution is simply either as I said go to the wellness center get a somebody to evaluate or refer the children to the police who are perhaps even more ill-equipped to handle the difficulties that we have but I am deeply concerned Mr. Speaker about the rising incidents of antisocial behavior within the school system and of course the inability of the system to deal with those issues and I hope that rather than the delay that is inevitably going to occur out of any policy analysis that will emerge and so prolonging the problem that there are some immediate interventions that can be taken to deal with the problem. I am aware Mr. Speaker that under the original proposal a sum of money was supposed to have been made available to repair the center for disabled children in V4. Of course I am not going to comment on how it is that V4 seems to suffer so much at this day sitting. I leave that for another day but that being said I hope the minister of education might have taken the opportunity to perhaps even give some comfort to the parents of the Beanfield Secondary School because I know my colleague through my left has spoken on the challenges facing the parents of the Beanfield Secondary School have been told that despite the fact that choices that the parents made choices for the Beanfield Secondary School they must now withdraw these choices and make new choices to other schools in the area that they would be assigned to. The parents of course flatly refuse to do so and they have indicated that they will not pursue that approach. May I suggest Mr. Speaker that this situation should not be allowed to get out of control and what the parents really want is a meeting with the minister to discuss the issue and resolve the issue because there are solutions to that problem that does not necessarily involve the transfer of the children to other schools in the south thereby increasing the cost of education for those parents and the parents of course are adamant to because the Beanfield Secondary School has also emerged now as a school of tremendous credibility I would say after just a few years that the percentage cut off entry into the school is in fact in the 60s just below the default senior comprehensive secondary school so I would hope that the minister will ask for a meeting with the parents as the parents have been asking to resolve this issue they are quite right that the policy implications of the ministries or the department's decision cannot be settled with junior officials of ministry of education and if I can offer the minister any comfort I will not be at the meeting you may come down I will not be at your meeting so but I hope you can find it within yourself to make sure that you come down to the school meet the parents and have a frank and open discussion to resolve this matter because if that does not happen I think that would create unnecessary conflict attention within the school that can easily be avoided and resolved that have been being said Mr. Speaker um despite the fact that we now have a truncated program I certainly welcome the investment in this sector I'm sorry that the the full value of the allocation to the students of the disabled community the challenge students are not reflected in the existing plan and I mean that's really very sad but I hope that other initiatives can at least proceed in the planning process rather than wait for any policy output from consultants appointed by the Caribbean development plan thank you Mr. Speaker honorable member for castries of this thank you Mr. Speaker this is a very interesting debate taking place on the issue of education and what is happening to our school plant and our school facilities the requirements of this loan in order to help improve school plan on the island Mr. Speaker I would assume that if we would spend the entire budget we would still not be able to meet all of the needs of the education system at this point in time and I need to emphasize a couple of points on this as we go forward over the years we've been putting patches on the problems that we are seeing we have not had a holistic approach towards our planning our developing our organizing and I had quite a bit of criticism coming to the prime minister by the member for view for north indicating that misguided it was a misguided concept that your curriculum should influence the type of building or the type of school plan that we should have Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker I see members on the other side are very edgy about everything that is said but I will I will focus on what is before us today they have other times to talk to what you are talking about there Mr. Speaker the member was emphasizing that now the prime minister is coming out here and speak about loan for the equip project and whatever and just the other day he was speaking about curriculum must be developed what is far from the truth in terms of what the member said and that's why Hansard maybe should be or there should be a replay of what members say in this honorable house because some people take liberty to mislead this honorable house and they always denied they never said that and when you go back you see exactly what was said so looking at education and you would think the members opposite and that is why it is important for us to understand how we found ourselves where we are today of the last 20 years the Labour Party administration would have governed this country for 15 of those 20 years the problems that emerge in our schools did not emerge yesterday the deplorable conditions at saffron did not happen overnight a building could not get to the condition that it is but you see we know we have limited resources we cannot give the perception that we can do everything and we can fix everything the minister for education was heavily criticized recently by the Labour Party administration or the Labour Party MPs in relation to what happened at the schools in for the opening of school in me could did the me could schools get to the situation that they were in the 18 months that we were in office in the two years and if you want to say two years when we speak about what has happened with the school plan and I heard the member for castries is giving all of the stats but he never answered the question put by the member for barbondo as to why the lager school the plans for the lager school was discontinued he gave his stats but he never said they stopped the plan but i'm listening and i'm hearing the member for view forth south now talking about plans for the school and how the parents may not accept what is proposed so are these same figures that was quoted by the member for castries is is it something that applies and if we are going to have a fun discussion about the education system about what we need to do as a country within the limited resources that we have this is not a matter to play politics with this is a matter to come straight with the people and tell them this is what it is this is what can be done this is what we can afford and i have to compliment the minister of education because she's found herself in a very difficult place at this point in time inheriting school plan that was heavily neglected especially the last five years of the labor administration and these are not these are not just words go and check the budgets and see what the allocation when the decision was made by the then government to remove the repairs of school plan from the ministry of education and placed under the ministry of infrastructure that was a dive in the wrong direction and there were no improvements i can tell you when i went when the principal of the forestier combined school called me you know what they found they found that rats were coming right into the food that was being that was there to be stored and to be cooked for the children because the netting that was supposed to be in the flower blocks to secure the building could not have been done you know what we had to do it was through cdp we were able to secure that environment knowing the problems that you've had with leptospirosis and and the spread of diseases through these rodents so so mr speaker these things are not new i heard a member for view for enough talk about the legacy or the history of the labor party with education and we've heard all the boast about universal secondary education was accomplished under them but they never gave credit to all the secondary schools that was built between 1964 and 1997 where's the record for that because at the end of the day mr speaker education should not be about who did what all governments have contributed in a meaningful way to education but we have a problem mr speaker and the problem is when we were making when the then government made projections for universal secondary education and i will tell you mr speaker when people have no vision you cannot expect better from them so what were the stats showing you pass an abortion bill which means that the likely result is a reduction in the number of children that would be born then then mr speaker there is a complaint there is a complaint that the number of students in schools on the decline now now there are number of factors that can contribute to the reduction so what does an abortion bill do mr speaker i am i'll let the member for central castries answer you on this side there's no need for that mr speaker mr speaker on the plan when you look at when you look at the factors that influence the reduction in the number of students that you have in schools anybody planning if you plan in a business if you plan in if you plan in to build a hotel you must know where you go into market you must know what the market is going to be and in doing so mr speaker you would know if you need to build a 10 room or a 20 room hotel if you go into plan any business any business you go into plan mr speaker you need to do it in a manner where you know what your projections are for five years for 10 years for 15 years for 20 years so i want to ask all of these additional space that we have in the schools today did the den planners who are sitting on the opposite side there did they have these plans in projection what were the stats showing you in terms of where we were going what is because we are talking about primary school but mr speaker it is the primary schools that feed the secondary schools and obviously if your numbers are going down in the primary schools it will go down even further in the secondary schools because you have dropouts between primary and secondary school so mr speaker mr speaker i see the member is interested in in my private life but honorable member for castry south is why allowing yourself to be distracted i'm not distracted mr speaker thank you okay mr speaker they know how many they've given me on facebook already so so mr speaker going back to the core because you see when one government makes a bad decision whether it be a uwp government or an slp government there's a trickle down effect on the country for years and years to come so the fact of the matter is we built new schools and then we don't have students to put into the schools but we know our people we understand them that's what they're accustomed to there's a school 500 yards from my home how dare you tell me my child cannot go to that school anymore but they must go to a school that is one mile away that's the reality of our people but as politicians and as policymakers are we going to be honest with the people and tell them that if we consolidate if we do what we have to do we can offer better quality at a higher standard for the same price than if we were to spread ourselves to film so the fact of the matter is if i had i can tell you when i went to the forestry school there was over 150 students there now that the numbers are down to about 80 students if i have to go and tell the people we need to close the school in forestry and merge it with another school is problems for me as a politician so i'll pop you later mr speaker so when members were planning and organizing and boasting and i will go back to what happened in view fort tec voc was closed in view fort and made it into a secondary school just for a particular government minister to be able to say universal secondary education was attained under my watch now i will say it here mr honorable member for country south east don't go don't spread it stretched so far you you imputing at this present time in my in my mind some motives that may not have been in the mind of any member just avoid that mr speaker mr speaker i can substantiate what i'm saying and if you're going to say that then i'll ask you to do it right now but if you're not going to do it now then i'm asking you to refrain from it mr speaker i'll move on but no i know what i'm saying but mr speaker i'm guided by you on this a number of schools were built now all of the schools are under populated the government has the burden to repair all of these schools the government has the burden to repair all of these schools to maintain all of the school plan to maintain the employment of all of the teachers and at the same time we have to meet the needs of a changing sector and so that is the problem that we have there you could not finish st jude's you could not finish it you know mr speaker i'll continue on what i'm saying if they want to have a debate on st jude's i'll come on you never went to st jude's for the five years you were in government so don't talk but you know that mr speaker the education sector is critical to this government in fact one of our campaign promises is to make it a globally competitive education system that is our focus we we didn't dream that one morning we spent five years in opposition planning organizing strategizing when we came into government we did not have to appoint a vision commission after almost 15 years in government to tell us what to do that is what forward thinking and forward planning does and if that if that had been adopted by the previous labor administration we would not be where we are today we would not this country would not be in the mess that it is today because all of the things we inherited and same thing they went and they just agreed a big low so if we say we need to streamline you need to decide what is the top priority for now because the fact of the matter is there are lots of priorities that we cannot address at this point in time it is not that we don't want to the reality is you cannot do everything you want to do because the resources are not available now that is prudence in governance because we have a government on this side who's responsible we don't give dates that we cannot keep we don't promise people what we cannot deliver some promise jobs jobs jobs and all the jobs that was happening were people were losing their jobs we have a responsibility towards the young people of this country towards the children and i heard the member for view for south speak about special education needs and what is going on special education needs did not arise yesterday morning and you had 15 years in government show us what you did tell me i did this i did that i did the other and i would expect you to do that to continue he said what he did that look don't matter was where to where it is so so you put land aside the government land you put aside is your land mr. speaker the fact of the matter is people must come to realize that they can talk but some people can work and i mean i i listen to the member for view for south in in in his presentation and the way he maneuvered around the information that he wants to give about his level of concern and everything and and i'm saying but i'm trying to figure out what happened during the 15 years as a past educator himself to meet the needs of these people because if i'm going to speak about something and he's not me he's not me if i want to do something i have to go to the prime minister to get permission to do it but he was the prime minister he was the minister of finance he had all the same to influence the process of education to go in a particular direction and today i know that i'm serving on the prime minister who knows that this education system needs improvement we need improvement in school plan we need we need improvement in the curriculum and you heard the minister of education was very clear the minister of education was very clear on the training component of this it is not just about building school plan that is the problem mr speaker all they're concerned about is the build school so ask him and you know what they claim to fame is on st jude mr speaker they were working every day they never stopped the work but you never stopped the work but you never accomplish anything so what's the point of of saying you're working but you're not accomplishing anything if i work on st jude for two years and i cannot finish st jude i should be fired from government that is what should happen to me if i work for two years and i cannot solve it i should not be where i am you see mr speaker some of us hold ourselves up to a certain standard some other people have no standards so now they can say to us do this because you know we can do it i know you are disappointed because we can't do it and we've not done it so mr speaker the plan by the ministry of education as outlined this is a visionary leader and you have to follow the trend on the other side all of a sudden dr robert louis did this and dr robert louis did that former minister of education why is he he what what what did he accomplish for the education sector show me what happened in the education sector under his watch because mr speaker i i don't want to claim things that i didn't do i didn't i don't want to claim nothing that i didn't do all of people want to claim things if i want to talk about the equip project i can tell you that start this discussion started way back but that's irrelevant that is irrelevant because the irrelevance of it has to do with you talk about it but you couldn't do it that's the difference they can talk always started it so many people start a race how many of them can finish the race are you counted when you you you counted for starting or for finishing this labor party has never been able to finish anything they have started they got things 90 complete and when they finish with it it was 50 complete i don't know i don't know how to describe what they do mr speaker so you think so you think i want to i want these men mr speaker to be in charge of what is happening in this country mr speaker education is in good hands it is in the hands of somebody who understands the changing trends in the education sector globally not somebody who is stuck in the stone age and and mr speaker the decisions that we have to make as a government these are tough decisions so you think it was easy going and look at the equip project and being able to say look here this is what we can afford to do it's tough no we cannot do all what we want to do we can only do what we can afford because we gave certain commitments to the people of this country that we are going to be prudent managers of this economy you see you see mr speaker mr speaker i want to say to the people of cent lucha that as we see what is happening with our schools with the school population all of us as members of parliament will come under some pressure at some point in time because if something does not happen to change the present projections we are going to have more problems in the future in terms of the population and in terms of the number of children in schools so whether we want to accept it as members of parliament because it influences our votes in one way or the other it is a matter that must be addressed and that is why i'm saying we cannot continue to put patches on the problem there must be a holistic approach towards reviving this education sector we have to whether we want to or not so when the time comes for all of us to have that discussion we should have it and members opposite i realize that they have given their support to the the loan and that is commendable your thing your thing he said that's his mr speaker but i i i understand the car the cows were not his but the school is his he was minister of agriculture he don't know about the cows but he know about the schools he was not minister of education that's right back some mr speaker i want to assure the people that some people can talk and some people can work and i am convinced that the direction that we are going as a government as an education especially in the education sector this is one of the pillars on which we were elected it is in our manifesto it is in the mission vision and values of the united workers path and all those who make a noise on the other side ask them under which government they were educated as all of them sitting on the other side there under which government they were educated they were educated under the government of the united workers path and and and you know i'd even forgotten that but a good thing you remind me after during adults of rich from 1951 to 1964 ninety well but that's the point but you see it is how you can interpret the history that you read if if the late sir george charles was the one in government between 1951 and 1964 because the uwp was not born before 1964 so who was supposed to build a secondary school in the early 60s you know mr speaker because some people come to this honorable house and they figure out that people are not knowledgeable about certain things and they talk about they talk about we don't know what the truth is so after adults during the period after adults of rage 1951 to 1964 who was in charge of the affairs of this country okay so but if labor was in office obviously labor had to build a school how could uwp build a school when uwp did not exist in those days so so what is the claim and uwp built no schools no casuis comprehensive school was not built leon has secondary was not built entry post secondary was not built they just call in secondary all these schools fell from the sky all these schools fell from the sky mr speaker and they landed here nobody built them nobody built schools other than the labor party so labor party was in office for two years between 1964 and 1997 two and a half years so i would assume that every school that is in st lucas was built between 1970 from 1964 to 1997 every school that was built in st lucas was built in the two and a half years of the worst most chaotic period in governance in st lucas so mr speaker when members opposite want to mislead the people of this country and make them believe that everything that exists existed through them you know what when you can claim what is not yours mr speaker you can do anything when you can take credit for things you did not do it tells me the quality of the persons that we are talking about don't let my mba bother you your phd don't bother me because if i have a phd i'd be like you i'd rather have a knowledge honorable member stay focused thank you mr speaker mr speaker mr speaker i want to say to honorable members and to the people of st lucas we are focused and we are going to deliver on the promises that we made in our manifesto to bring world class education to st lucas we are on the path to doing so st lucas is a renowned place for bright people yes they have bright people but they have some that just don't shine so maybe he falls in the category of those who don't shine but we are known for producing bright people and i am proud to stand in this honorable house mr speaker there are opportunities for all some people believe mr speaker because they got opportunities and they attained that nobody else has entitlement to this but i stand here as an example to other young people who are marginalized who has challenged who had difficulties to rise to a certain level and even today i stand in this honorable house and they always take swipes at me mr speaker they always take swipes at me i cannot read i cannot see i cannot do this i cannot do that you've heard them um who did the courses for me but but that is what it comes to but you don't question their qualifications and their credibility but i can question their performance because i can see they are non-performers and so mr speaker if we're speaking about education if i could attain every young st lucas has an opportunity to attain okay and we must never allow people to stand in our way of meeting what we are set to achieve in life and so i believe in education i believe in education more than what i say you know why because i can challenge anybody on the opposite side that i have invested more in education of my personal resources to help young people go to school and do all kinds of things when you all call me a bus driver you know what most of the children traveled on my bus free of charge when they could not afford to pay to school that's the difference that's what you all call me but i've i've been proud of who i have been but education education oh now is boston honorable member please remain focused and mr speaker i want to assure you that this government is going to deliver on the issue of education and the the project that is envisaged with the equip project is just one step that is not the solution that is not going to resolve all of the problems that we have in the education system but it is one step in the right direction and this government has committed more money to be spent in the education sector than the labor party did during their terms in office go to the budget go to the budget so mr speaker i support the move being made i support the prime minister and the minister of education and i know that we are going to deliver we are not delivering substandard and i'll close on this point the show is l secondary school ask them what we inherited when we came in ask them how many years there was a report saying that this school was not fit to be used for educating children because of the risk factors involved for how many years they were in government were they able to resolve the problem they were not able to resolve the problem we have negotiated the loan they want to talk about loan negotiations we have negotiated funding from the world bank for this when we left office in 2011 they spent five years in office five years just like all of the project they could not even get the project started it had to take a uwp government to come back into office and to start and we are on target to complete the show is the secondary school the two blocks so mr speaker mr speaker these are the facts ask them who started the secondary school you tell me what project exactly who started the process of dvrp dvrp process was started after hurricane thomas under the united workers party government so mr speaker you see i don't play on these things mr speaker they want to claim take it take it you you had the money you couldn't finish anything well i'm doing what you could not do this uwp government is delivering on the things that the labor party could not deliver for five years in office and so mr speaker i know that we are going to accomplish what we have said to accomplish and this country is in the best hands that it can be at this point in time under the hands and the control of the united workers party in government i thank you member for a library thank you very much mr speaker mr speaker i rise to add my voice to the debate on the motion to borrow sixteen million one hundred and ninety two thousand dollars us from the caribbean development bank for the purpose of financing the st lusia education quality improvement project because mr speaker education is one of the basic needs for human development and to escape poverty so after louis said it beautifully when he said that the cure for poverty is not money but education a view which has been reinforced by the late bob malley who said some people are so poor all they have is money the late bob malley said that some people are so poor all they have is money so mr speaker education is necessary for national development and for prosperous society education allows workforces to be more efficient it keeps inflation at bay and it feeds economic growth government and society therefore have a vested interest in ensuring a constant flow of students in higher education it is urgent to ensure good quality of higher education for society's own interest mr speaker seminal figures in the field of education and public policy have always argued that education is so important that you must deep into your national resources to ensure that you educate your people because that's the only way we are going to make strides as a nation russia mounted from the status of underdeveloped country to a superpower and developed country mainly on the wings of education japan owes its phenomenal growth as an industrial power to education and there is no doubt in my mind mr speaker that the labor party whether in opposition or in government will always be committed to quality education and quality health care we have always made education and health care urgent priorities on a casual glance at history will provide evidence to substantiate this claim mr speaker i noted during our debate on the estimates as well as the appropriation bill and for the sake of clarity i want to of course revisit just a portion of what i said on the whole issue of education to find a ready compass in which to set my course i noted on that occasion mr speaker it is well recognized that the skill workforce is a necessary incentive for attracting foreign direct investment and making sentlosia more competitive the skill endowments of the labor force are indispensable for learning technology absorption productivity improvement diversification and overall competitiveness investors have also cited skill availability to be a critical factor in the investment decisions mr speaker on page 146 of the 2005 world bank publication it noted and i quote the returns on education in the caribbean are significant especially at the post-secondary education level has a return of 21 percent the return to education depends primarily upon the quality and quantity of supply in comparison to demand the high returns indicate that education is a scarce factor of production and that firms are willing to pay a substantially higher wage for well-educated workers on quote it went on to say on that same page mr speaker that the variation of returns to education within the caribbean can be related to the variation in supply of skills three examples barbed as whose successful education system is able to produce high quality supply of skills provides high quality workers with relatively low returns thereby contributing to increased competitiveness of barbarian firms two the low supply of workers with secondary education in the dominican republic has led to high returns to workers at this educational attainment level seven percent compared to three percent in barbed as and three low production of tertiary graduates in the ocs countries has driven up the returns to education at this level example 22 percent in st lusia resulting in very high labor costs for firms on quote mr speaker a table on that same page showing private returns to education in the caribbean by country market surveys show that in the countries depicted barbed as dominican republic gianna st lusia trained adam to bego was st lusia was the worst performer in terms of competitiveness this is why mr speaker between 1997 and 2006 the labor party felt it necessary to end the shift system in our schools most of our young people they ended the second their primary school life in standard four they did not have an opportunity to go to a secondary school and so it made return to education very high and were less competitive at that particular point in time however we work assiduously to to was ensuring that we had universal secondary education in this country we expanded existing secondary schools and we built new secondary schools and today we are more competitive at that level but mr speaker we didn't get there by accident it was a deliberate priority of my government many poor persons could not go to school poverty was a battle learning the labor party said learning must offer an escape from poverty and so through social transformation we started to assist our families in st lusia to ensure that every child has an opportunity to access a secondary school so they were assisted with uniforms they were assisted with books they were assisted with transportation they were assisted in a holistic way to ensure that they had a secondary education we provided scholarships provided bursaries for the sons and daughters of toil mr speaker and so members opposite from time to time would come with some kind of strange logic about we don't care about young people want people to be dependent on us we empower people by educating them to give them an opportunity to become professionals and this is why today mr speaker we can boast that we can get a variety of opinions because across society both north and south we have destroyed privilege we have equalized opportunity for the sons and daughters of st lusia we have destroyed privilege and we have equalized opportunity and give every son and daughter the opportunity to take the place responsibly beside others in our society and contribute to national growth and development at this juncture i heard a member for cast in southeast spoke about mba and i want to in a very sincere way offer my congratulations to the honorable member from castry south east i am proud of you for recognizing the importance of education i saw you speaking there with some newfound freedom i i heard you speaking on an you know unencumbered by fear with authority i heard you a few months ago talking about consumption about india and japan i welcome that honorable member i welcome that under announcements what i what i do not welcome there's a book that i read about street and crooked thinking and the honorable member is skill in the manipulation of false and will take fact sometimes and of course from some kind of misleading linear progression he shaped it into his own image and likeness on the announcements he spoke about st jude and of course yes under on the statements by ministers the member for view for south raised a very significant point about public health and all of that will have to contribute to the quality of education many persons are very concerned about the quality of education vis-à-vis the quality of health care in our country they go hand in hand the health of the nation is the wealth of the nation if you're not a healthy you cannot study in a way to achieve and to excel as you'd like to if you're a healthy being and therefore st jude's cannot be a trivial matter now may is reading month reading month and i heard the member for castry south east reading from a document during a statement which was made a document of the house about the whole issue about st jude's and i beg leave mr speaker whilst i discuss the quality of education to read from that same document that very document he stated talk about the initial plans about st jude's to have st jude's the people returned to the to the burn structure two years later on september 9th 2011 and they would build a new hospital at boseju they promised that the people would be back by 9th of september 2011 in august of 2011 prime minister king at the time the member for castry's north said no they are going to to remain at the site and so a new scope of works came into being prior to the labor party we had an individual dealing with the reconstruction of st jude's hospital we had a consultant engineer dealing with the hospital we had a committee from health from budget office from economic planning dealing with the reconstruction of the hospital in consonance with the ceo of st jude's the ceo at st jude's has its own committee to ensure that the flow and everything were appropriate the members opposite were crying out finish st jude's finish st jude's even now they are saying we should have finished st jude's now by saying that we should have finished st jude's inherent in that statement is a clear acknowledgement that st jude's needs to be finished and i want to of course he went through a list of contracts i will remember for larry i will not try to stop your but what i will say to you remember what we discussed certainly i've made that and therefore the the statement by the member is not open for debate i will not tell you don't make mention of the statement but you need to tie the two okay thank you mr speaker i i i believe that i made a clear nexus between health and education oh you made the statement yes i heard it i want you to continue moving the two okay okay mr speaker mr speaker sometimes sometimes when you're navigating and you're confronted with clear a turbulence sometimes you have to divert so i was engaged in a logical digression mr speaker but this is your chamber mr speaker this is your chamber and so i will be obedient i don't want to be recalcitrant in this chamber but just to add and to conclude on the st jude's matter to indicate that most of the contracts dealing with that facility that's important for school children that the contractor they appointed until 20 december 2014 at that point according to the financials of gilling the hospital 50 million 150 thousand 385 dollars and 90 cents were already spent at that point and the total during our time was 98.4 million dollars so he was trying to make this house a victim of misleading information and by extension the general public but of course on another occasion mr speaker we will continue that debate about st jude's only to say that based on the urgency of the situation this government has absolutely no alternative but to complete the st jude's hospital it seemed as if nothing is a priority in the south for this uwp administration they come take our lands and give it away and they cannot even build a few classrooms to accommodate from one students they cannot build a few classrooms had been filled to put the students so all we want to do is come must to pay on the people of ufort take their lands to make a petty bourgeois enclave that will not generate any jobs for the people of the south that will not fix up the school plans that will not improve the quality of education and it's okay they expect the opposition to just remain silent to just remain silent you see the contents take the shape of the container and the container is a horse everything in this country is now subordinated into supreme interest of some horse business and this is the problem mr speaker the government has sufficient time to erect a structure at being filled to accommodate the children that they are asking today to go and apply for other schools you know how stressful that is when young children are studying looking forward to going to being filled they are dreaming about the place at being filled they sit at being filled and you come during the time that they are preparing for the exam you introduce this kind of trauma in their life and then you come here and pretend as if you're so concerned about young people during our nyc days we always said that education is a right not a privilege and the member for cash is out who was an active participant in the process could attest to the veracity of this declaration we emerge out of the need to educate our young people so that they can provide leadership and take our country to a new plane of development but we cannot take our country to a new plane if we are not serious about addressing the quality of education in our country and you know what the amazing thing is they laugh they laugh they laugh at the rights of humanity they laugh at the people of you thought and when they are called to consult with the people what they do they announce some town hall meeting and when people get there is actually a constituency group meeting throwing people out deleting the things from the from the phones as if you know somehow that the business of the country is a secret and then they organize an open day for the supporters to go to try to stop the reality of things and and we organize a rally they run to la quville and tell the people all sorts of truth we'll see i'll tell you whilst the people of miku have a tradition of voting for a particular party the people are educating educating themselves and even though they support the party they can make a distinction between what is true and what is not true and they they went to la quville and they could not advance logical and cogent arguments to substantiate any of the things that they were saying just imagine in the process of coming into office they have called us all types of names they have called us niggers they have called us dogs they call us terrorists honorable leader and only recently mr speaker honorable honorable member honorable member honorable member i remember for library i can honorable members please i'm a number for v four south and honorable member for member for library you some very strong words that I believe that you should not yeah but then you're the one saying it now and I'm not I am not taking an issue of what you what may have been but when you stand here and you see that persons call you dogs and all kind of just be it is moving into one parliamentary language now because we're not supposed to we're not honorable member for we're not supposed to we're not supposed to be insulted or use obscene language to other members of this house or any other house one thing I will say I never come to this house and try to mislead anybody what I have said is not subject to debate or compromise not even the best political liar can refute anything that I have said and mr. Speaker you see honorable member on you can remain standing on remember because all I would do I do not in your use of whatever term you want to use once you're making a reference to fellow members here then your language must change I wasn't I'm not saying it was not used or it was yes I'm saying once you stand there and you using you using those language or these words and it may be reflective or impute on members I am saying that I am going to step in thank you mr. Speaker but the point has been made the point has been made and even last night whilst I was watching the news there was another one with a white glove saying something else which I will not introduce into this honorable house see you heard the you heard the prime minister you heard the prime minister you heard the prime minister is that language acceptable in this house is that language acceptable in this house honorable members what is allowed a member to come what is the nexus between a sheet of paper and toilets what is what is the connection what is the connection now I'll say something mr. Speaker mr. Speaker this is your chamber like I said and I'm going to be guided by you but make no mistake about it mr. Speaker that I'm not one of those timid individuals this country calls for courage and we are not going to be cowards in the face of your attempt attempted bullying we are not going to be intimidated by you one mr. Speaker mr. Speaker this government is not committed to no quality education and no quality health care in this country and I want to take my my discourse on this subject to its logical conclusion by alluding to something that has been well documented and I think the member for the for North raised it earlier when he spoke about the laptops what is well documented mr. Speaker is that effective use of ICT is an essential ingredient for training competitiveness in both services and the nature manufacturing sectors in the Caribbean many firms have utilized ICT to cut costs improve communications with customers improve logistics overcome distance and understand the competitive positioning in order to force an environment for greater and more effective use of ICT policy makers would need to facilitate access among other things apart from doing nothing to improve skill endowment this government has destroyed the laptop program take it away from the poor people that were making use of it on a point of order I think the honorable members misleading the list was a point of order I'm not going to yield was a point of order honorable member for library she has she has indicated she's standing on the point of order so immediately I would like you to say it on your member for me could not please get to do on your vote thank you mr. Speaker mr. Speaker I have stood in this house what's the point of order just turn off your microphones while I look honorable member by you yes because I was going to rise on 35 be which is elucidation that he will allow on elucidation he does not have to yield but 34 a requires that he yields so whichever one I can exercise either 34 a or 35 be I think it is very well then very are you yielding but mr. Speaker there is a point of elucidation I can I'm not going to yield to the member for me could not yes honorable members may member for me could not if it is if it is a point of isolation then it does not have to you I'm not going to I'm not going to if you say a point of order I expected you to say that I'm imputing improper motives on mislead the house I'm not mislead in the house when the member for for library speaking you put off your mic only the speaker as the authority to punctuate my presentation but you see mr. Speaker nobody will be fooled by this UWP administration everybody everybody knows the truth and at the end of the day it is all well and good for you to say 40 something thousand people voted for you but you must be sensitive to national mood every social partner that will speak in this country would be attacked they are considered sectoral irritants we cannot have peace in this country if that is going to be the attitude of the government you you are you are not securing an environment of peace for you to introduce policy you are just provoking people you attack the St. Lucia Medical and Dental Association you attack National Trust and I'm sure you know all of you talk including the member for grozily you know why I'm speaking you all are talking you are all afraid you all know better you all know better but you see there is something called identification with the aggressor in psychology and I'm going to end with that where in order to try to repress what is causing anxiety some people can identify with people who have hijacked them so you all are all there you all know what is right but you know you all just have to clap and you know pretend that what we are saying there does not make sense and it's not the truth but tattoo tattoo tattoo tattoo ball on me ball on me this year we are going to be midway very soon and you'll have to account to the people of this country no matter how big we think we are no matter how powerful we think we are in an instant God will take charge and I believe in God that's why I fear no man and I will speak my truth in this house and in my country of both I was born here I was cooked and baked in this culture I understand my people and I will always give my people the best possible representation so mr. Speaker again given the fact that we are committed to quality education we have no difficulty mr. Speaker in embracing this particular borrowing and to support the motion to borrow to improve quality but of course the quality of health care must equally be addressed mr. Speaker and I want the member for castres out is and the Prime Minister to finish our hospital so that when the kids fall sick at the various institutions they have a proper hospital to go to I thank you mr. Speaker I'm not the Prime Minister thank you very much mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker I'm very happy that this bill has evoked this kind of debate because education is something that's incredibly important to the future of Saint Lucia and you know it's a we can ask we can ask herself sorry yes is it okay no I mean no it's okay but if it might do you want me to sit back down it's somebody else want to speak okay so education is incredibly important mr. Speaker I say education is very important because I think that in listening to debate on both sides one of the things that's very very clear is that we do not have an education system currently in Saint Lucia that any of us have confidence in that's going to take us to the next level really okay so the other side madam speak miss mr. Speaker is saying no no it's saying it's saying I want to take the opposite then are you saying that in fact the education system in Saint Lucia is working fine so I would I would I would then rephrase mr. Speaker what I said both sides agree that our education system currently in its state okay needs improvement in order to be able to deliver to the people of Saint Lucia what it needs to be okay and to date it has not done so and the question becomes mr. Speaker how do we do that education for the longest time has been the number one expenditure that we've had in fact this year mr. Speaker if my memory serves me correct I believe the number is about 182 million dollars we're spending less but in 9 in 2001 we spent 90 million and in 2001 when we spent the 90 million you had 40,000 students today you have 27,000 students and the question becomes in 19 in 2001 we were spending 2700 2275 dollars per child today we're spending 6700 dollars per child has the level of quality of education increased by threefold can we say that can we can we honestly say mr. Speaker that we've had a 300 percent improvement in the level of education you know mr. Speaker the the worst sin the worst sin to have is when one cannot even be honest with themselves when the government when the former government was in office and they started a new hotel of which of which of which they have said that we have never acknowledged that they were the ones who started the hotel and I want to say it again publicly what I said at the opening ceremony that I want to acknowledge the work that the labor party did in bringing royalty into San Lucio and I want to acknowledge how brave they were in doing some of the bold initiatives in order to make sure that that project came on I said it I said it I said it on the opening of the ceremony under of the ribbon cutting for the opening of the hotel okay I've said it but I didn't say that in the campaign I said I supported the project okay now can you not be honest yourself and ask yourself the question why why would we have had 44 sorry 25 percent unemployment and 44 percent unemployment amongst the youth and why is it that the hotel brought in 50 percent of the workers who are brought why you got to fly the people in you have to put them up and pay higher salaries than you were paying in San Lucio okay yes and you can speak to the minister of the former minister of labor okay why and that is where we must be honest of ourselves and accept some of the feelings that we're having so where are we going how are we going to be able to change the education system so when we came into government mr. speaker the other side is correct the equip project was ready to go and the total amount was about 30 million u.s. dollars in fact there was a hundred million u.s. dollars worth of loans approved of cdb which would have increased the debt stock of San Lucio by 10 percent and the million dollar question becomes mr. speaker that we have to ask ourselves and go through each one of those loans so yesterday in fact we did the groundbreaking for the dam and in fact that that money was going to be borrowed with a government guarantee and we were able to negotiate with cdb to get them to accept just the tax and they would get be given a letter of comfort and the same thing with education when we looked at the education if again my memory serves me correct of the 30 million dollars that was approved 25 million dollars was to fix up five schools five schools and the question became after spending 30 million u.s. dollars in education did we believe that we were going to be significantly changing the education solution and that's why when we negotiated with cdb was to break the project down into two parts and the first part was to be able to focus on a new plan for education which includes a review of the curriculum and that we said that we have no difficulties in spending money on maintenance of the schools in fact we have now borrowed money 10 million dollars which is going to be spent this summer on helping to fix up the basic needs of schools but what we would not do is go and spend five to six million u.s. dollars on a school and we were only fixing an old school and we have no idea what the new school of the future is going to look like because we don't know what the curriculum is going to look like no yeah no problem and that's not what i said so mr. speaker what we have to make sure is what is education going to look like how are we going to be able to deliver to make sure that the education system is being able to provide a globally competitive education system for the people in our country we also said that this idea that everybody has to go to tertiary level education because we see not enough kids going to tertiary level education but when they come back they're not getting jobs that it can afford to pay back the loans that they had and in fact many of them aren't coming back so what we've seen like in switzerland like in germany the apprenticeship programs and tech vox schools are a better way to go because when a child can now do a short term course or a year course in improving his skills the likelihood is that he can afford to pay back that low and he's going to be given a skill set which is immediately going to earn him a higher wage because the affordability of it is not just for us as a state the affordability also comes for the people because i've met many families in which the parents have agreed to mortgage their home for the children to go to university and the kids don't come back and the bank now is knocking on the door so we have a problem as only if we are going to agree to face that problem that we're going to solve it so when we talk about new curricula who doesn't believe we don't have to fix the new curricula the new method of measuring the quality of your education system today is critical thinking in fact it's replaced sat test and the country that continuously comes number one in the world in critical thinking is finland mr speaker and guess what a novel approach that's not so novel in fact in finland it's more difficult to become a teacher than is to become a lawyer or a doctor and they're well paid and so some of the same deficiencies that the member from view for south so rightfully pointed out that the skill set of the teachers to be able to deal with all these different deficiencies that they have a greater capacity to be able to do that there's an unwritten episode that takes place i call it the great exodus every day at two thirty during the week mothers and parents leaving work to go and pick up their children and bringing them back where right back to their workplace when do we have traffic jams in this country because all the parents are rushing to bring their kids to school in the morning we can't even put in a proper transportation system to be able to deal with that how are we going to solve those problems if we look at what unesco says we ought to be spending on education we're not even coming close to that number to meet the the minimum level and we all recognize that in order for us to be competitive that we have to have students at even a higher level so if the current structure cannot fulfill the needs of celusia why are we scared to make a change and what is that change and how are we going to have that discussion and you're 100 right can't have that discussion amongst ourselves we have to now reach out to the business community we have to reach out to all the different NGOs all the people who are employing people in this country and find out what that skill set that we have to get and how are we going to make sure that our curriculum is able to meet that need you know the members from the other side keep on pounding away at the idea that these laptops have disappeared so you give kids laptops in order to be able to access the internet but there was no curriculum on the laptop mr speaker absolutely none i would love you to see that feeling is a bad example okay go ahead so we're we're we're you have a government you have a government that was an office for 15 years and they're saying that people are still enslaved i don't understand but you see this is the difficulty i have mr speaker my member by the member the honorable member from labry keeps on saying on the other side finish the hospital i want to know that for the five years that he was in government when he passed by the hospital every day how come he did not go to cabinet every week and say finish the hospital why all of a sudden now why all of a sudden now this great need to finish the hospital and the fact is is that we want to finish the hospital in order to improve the quality of health care for the people in this country they were interested in finishing the hospital for political gain they could do nothing they cannot they're asking people to do what themselves could not do mr speaker and that is and you know that is the greatest level of honorable members honorable member for labry honorable member honorable members honorable members it appears it appears honorable member for labry it appears mr prime minister i may have to direct you not to use the word send you because whenever the word send you this you seem like it brings just continue mr prime minister but i need this is this mr speaker it's amazing to me that people who have such a failed track record would be so brave and brazen to try to hold other people accountable when they could not even hold themselves accountable there are so many examples of things in which they promised and they could not deliver and yet now but rightfully so i have to say mr speaker the expectation on the other side is that we are going to deliver and we will deliver you know i i'm i'm also very confused mr speaker because when i make the statement that we accept that the education system has failed us when you have the leader of the of the of the party the honorable member from view for itself who said what was it 73 percent of the workforce was not qualified what does that say what does that acknowledgement say that we have an education system in which it just needs some tinkering or we have an education system that has completely failed the people of this country when i meet young people today and they meet so many of them who are discouraged disenchanted and unmotivated to go to school look at sir Arthur Lewis College physically curriculum can we say that it's delivering to the people of this country but guess what the members on this side mr speaker acknowledged the challenge that we have we do not play the blame game all we are committed to do mr speaker is to fix it is to make it better because we're committed to giving the people of this country the freedom that they so richly deserve and that freedom comes in the ability to be able to pay for their own health care services the ability to get a best education system an education system that's not only competitive in solution mr speaker but when they travel abroad they can compete with the best nurses in the world they compete with the best lawyers the best doctors the best accountants that is who we're looking for we look to celebrate in the excellence of solutions mr speaker the same ojo labs so on one hand the member on the other side is talking about laptops and the need for technology we bring a company to st. Lucia ojo labs which is now transferring transferring incredible skill sets to the people of st Lucia in the area of coding and that we have now a young solution a young solution who went into that program sir and guess what he did within two months looked at the overall program was able to make a contribution and improve the productivity of the business you know what that tells us mr speaker there are many more solutions who have that skill set and what we want to do is we want to develop that skill set we want to introduce coding at the high school level and coding for afterwards in order to make this thing happen what we're doing in village tourism mr speaker in terms of helping entrepreneurs develop in st Lucia because we have confidence in the people of st Lucia and we understand the responsibility that we have mr speaker in delivering to the people of st Lucia so today of the hundred and eighty two million dollars that we're spending in education now 61 percent of it is in former salaries and here's the reality they're not getting paid enough i listened to members on the other side how said i've ridiculed the teachers i've never ridiculed teachers i celebrate teachers in this country i hold them up in the highest esteem the highest esteem and what i have said is that they're not being paid enough and in addition to that we have to be able to provide them with better education they should be paid more because we have to fix the economy and right now st Lucia continues to run to operate in a deficit you said it yourself and so those are the things that we have to be able to fix we have to grow this economy in order to be able to generate the revenues to be able to put into education to put into health here and to put into the infrastructure but guess what i don't expect the members on the other side to understand that because every time there is a financial problem in this country they only know how to do one thing mr speaker is to put taxes in that's all they know how to do put one tax on top of another tax so when we came in when we came in and we said that we were going to move the taxes off the that they said it was impossible honorable prime minister honorable prime minister and members honorable members honorable members honorable members i'm not hearing i'm not hearing the member honorable member for grossly honorable member for library me could not allow the prime minister at least allow him to speak in order that i may hear what he said okay then mr prime minister thank you very much mr speaker you know i keep on saying to my my friend and um the member from lab read that he keeps flying too high that's why he wouldn't be able to see the truth they must they must be clearly something wrong with his navigational system and every day when he was coming up when he had to be picked up in the morning and dropped off in the evening clearly he never passed by sin june to understand that the whole the hospital needed to be open it's amazing to me mr speaker that members on the other side who have now accounting to see that they're going they've spent how much 118 million dollars and counting and that is not even 50 completed i would be ashamed and embarrassed if that happened that is the greatest that is the greatest horror that has taken place in this country and during while they were doing that to leave the people in the stadium in the conditions they are and now want to come and talk about that there that the people's lives are being are being jeopardized can you imagine amazing mr speaker and he's talking about he's a person who's talking about putting a filing a navigational plan where was the navigational plan for sin judes so in fact if anything we've taken your advice and we're filing a new flight plan in order to be able to arrive at the destination because the flight plan that you have was just going in the air i've told the member from from view from from library continuously there's a big difference between spending money and working they were not they were not working they were just spending money spending money spending money okay and at least on this side we're going to be accountable to the people of sam lusha as to how much money we're going to spend honorable members mr speaker it's now honorable members honorable members i have said to you i have no issue i have said that before i have no issue with the crosstalk i have none whatsoever but it's getting too loud it is getting too loud i'm wondering now if the recording or if the general public out there is actually hearing what is being said and maybe hearing the the crosstalk member for grossly you have been worn through me by the member of library continue honorable prime minister thank you sir you know members on the other side mr speaker always continuously um create stories for their own satisfaction i heard some of these adjectives that were used to describe how we describe the liver party i want to say categorically i know of no one who ever used that kind of language to describe because you know what they did a good enough job of destroying themselves nobody had nobody had to criticize the mr speaker but i want to say this to you when we talk about victimization when you get into on when you get into office right you want another clear example the same former minister of education where is he working today where is he working today he's working at sir Arthur okay but i want to know i want to know that the the present the current minister of education when she was an opposition was she ever afforded that opportunity to work for any of the institutions in solution a person who had taught at ui who had made applications to to to work and never happened and you see that's the that's the difference between one one government and the other government so mr speaker one of the things is that he was there one of the things that we've really learned to do very well on this side is to recognize it is the objective of the opposition to oppose but i have to say to you mr speaker it is the objective of the party in government to govern and government govern we shall and the this project that we have approved here today and i'm very grateful for the support from the opposition very grateful that this project is the beginning of transforming our education system and that is what our intention is to do and there are many more announcements to come mr speaker in very short time that will show the people of salusha where we're going you're working and i can congratulate all the members of my side we heard a report today on how well we're doing in tourism we've heard what we're doing now with wasco a project that couldn't get off the ground that again suffered from labor pains and couldn't get off the ground but i say to you mr speaker i'm very grateful today to the cdb for working with us on making the amendments to this project and agreeing to phase this project i'm very much looking forward to the technical work that's going to be done but i didn't want to sit down mr speaker without at least acknowledging very importantly the contribution that the member from ufort south gave particularly about special needs this is an area in which we have to address and pay more attention to when we hear the plight of the school of the blind and the denata school and many of the other are the schools it is something that we're committed to do and i'm very happy that in this project they are funds to be able to develop that so the first phase is about helping with the programming and the second phase is about helping now with the physical infrastructure to be able to support those types of entities so again mr speaker thank you very much on your member the question is that parliament offer rises the minister of finance to borrow us 16 192 000 from the caribbean development bank for the purposes of financing the san lucha education quality improvement project and bid for the resolve that a in case of the special funds resources portion one the loan is repayable in 80 equal and approximately equal and consecutive quarter quarterly installments on on each due date of the first day of january the first day of april the first day of july and the first day of october of each year commencing on the first due date after the expiration of five years following the date of the loan agreement or on such little due date as bank may specify in writing and two the interest is payable at a rate of 2.5 per cent per annum withdrawn and outstanding on the amount of the special funds resources portion b in the case of the ordinary capital resources portion one the loan is repayable in 48 equal or approximately equal and consecutive quarter quarterly installments on each due date of the first day of january the first day of april the first day of july and the first day of october of each year commencing on the first due date after the expiration of the of five years following the date of the loan agreement or on such little due date as the caribbean development bank may specify in writing two the interest is payable at a rate of 2.97 per cent per annum withdrawn and outstanding on the amount of the ordinary capital resources portion and three a commitment charge at a rate of one percent per annum is payable quarterly on the amount of the ordinary capital resources portion on withdrawn and with accrues and which accrues from the 60th day following the date of the loan i now put a question as many as are of that opinion see i as many as are of a country opinion see no i think the eyes have it the eyes have it bills honorable minister in the office of the prime minister with responsibility for tourism information and broadcasting mr. speaker i beg to move the first reading of a bill shortly entitled sent lucid tourism authority amendment bill the lucid tourism authority amendment honorable minister in the office of the prime minister with responsibility for tourism information and broadcasting mr. speaker i beg to move for the suspension of standing order number 48 to allow the bill to go through its remaining stages of dissenting honorable members the question is that standing order number 48 to be suspended in order to allow the honorable minister to proceed with the remaining stages of the bill at this sitting i know put the question as many as are of that opinion see i as many as of a country opinion see no i think the eyes have it the eyes have it live is granted proceed honorable minister mr. speaker i also beg for the second reading of a bill shortly entitled sent lucid tourism authority amendment mr. speaker there is no doubt mr. speaker that the ever-changing tourism environment is becoming increasingly competitive and mr. speaker this demands that small jurisdictions like st lucid with very limited budgets when compared to jurisdictions like the other destinations in the caravan with bigger room stocks and bigger capacity mr. speaker that we have the very best institutional arrangements to govern the marketing of the destination mr. speaker it is clear that the changes which we have made in the last two years i.e being one the reduction in the administrative budget as outlined in my statement this morning which clearly pointed out to the fact that we reduce the administrative budget from 10 million to four million mr. speaker in order to enable us to better finance the visibility of the destination mr. speaker other moves to also rid the board of events so that we would have a lot more money towards increasing the visibility of the destination mr. speaker is indeed very imperative mr. speaker the amendments which we seek to make to the bill today is in keeping with that broader objective and so mr. speaker as we seek to amend section seven of the bill which in section two c which currently reads in the primary act that three persons be nominated by the hotel and tourism associations must be appointed by the board of directors by the minister in writing mr. speaker what we seek to do now is to expand the pool from which we can select persons in the board and so mr. speaker the clear intention with this amendment is to also now allow us to include other trade associations such as the chamber of commerce and the manufacturing association mr. speaker this will widen the pool of individuals from which we can choose from and leverage the wealth of expertise and intelligence that exist in a number of our trade associations what this will also do mr. speaker is create a better engagement between tourism and its relevant stakeholders very often you find that there's a disconnect and there's not an acute understanding in the other sectors as to the difficulties the challenges the opportunities even that the tourism sector may face from time to time and this mr. speaker have oftentimes caused a lot of conflict and so mr. speaker the amendment here will create a better engagement and a more cohesive existence between tourism and a number of its stakeholder sectors mr. speaker the bill also the amendment also allow us to deep politicize the board because mr. speaker it is still in keeping with the primary act where we do have a situation whereby the government will appoint four out of seven members mr. speaker this is a change from the old st. lucia tourist board act whereby the minister appointed all 12 of the members and what you found mr. speaker or invariably ministers may sometimes over salad the board with with political appointments that may tend to mr. speaker hinder the board from having the best resources on it and so mr. speaker this is in keeping with that broader intent mr. speaker we also seek to exempt the authority from paying of duties and taxes and that is by the insertion of a new clause mr. speaker into the bill and and so mr. speaker the bill now will become sort of a the board will now become a duty-free entity whereby it will have a lot more with resources to be plowed into the marketing of the destination rather than increasing and incurring additional overheads so mr. speaker two very simple and straightforward amendments is being proposed here but very significant mr. speaker in the context of our development and in the context of the overall role that tourism plays in the advancement of our economy mr. speaker there's also this is also in keeping with the government's broader intent to better improve the arrangements that govern tourism and so mr. speaker you would have heard us made pronouncements about village tourism which we will institute later this year and we've reached a very advanced stage in accomplishing that and in addition to that mr. speaker we're getting ready to launch the first component of the national tourism council which will in bring together about 17 public and private sector agencies working together to develop tourism holistically this will be the policy hub while the tourism authority which we seek to amend the primary bill today will be the marketing arm while village tourism mr. speaker will focus on business development entrepreneurship and seeks to empower sentolutions to participate at a higher level at the entrepreneurship level to become owners of the sector rather than mere workers and so mr. speaker a rather comprehensive view is being taken as we seek to make these rather two simple amendments to this bill mr. speaker thank you honorable members the question is that the sainte-loucher tourism authority amendment bill be read a second time honorable member for view for itself mr. speaker the sainte-loucher tourism authority act was centered to on july 26 2017 and we are here 10 months 11 months later amending the very same act that we have just enacted now i do not believe that that should be held against the government for the very simple reason that in the process of enactment of legislation it is very common that errors are committed not picked up at the moment of enacting enactment and have to be corrected in due course it's a different matter of course if in the passage of the legislation that issues were identified to be dealt with they were ignored and then you come back based on those submissions and you propose them to make the mistakes to correct the mistakes which had been pointed out earlier but i was not present unfortunately when this bill was introduced to this house so did not have a chance to offer any thoughts on the legislation so in a sense this affords a new opportunity to reflect on some of the provisions at the outset i would disavow the view that these are two simple amendments they are not they are not simple amendments they have issues they are problems and i think that some thought has to be given to not just these amendments but the context of the legislation the amending bill says in clause three that section seven of the principal act is amended in subsection two by deleting paragraph c and by substituting the following three must be persons nominated by primary one hotel and tourism associations and trade associations and of course the very language destroys the minister's argument that the intention is to depoliticize the process of appointment because the harsh and clear reality is that their nominations to the minister and if you have been nominated for appointment and the minister has a discretion whether you accept or not accept the nominees but we can put that on the side for the for the time being the problem starts off with language it says three must be persons nominated by primary hotel and tourism associations and that word of course appears in the original bill in section seven because it also speaks of primary hotel and tourism associations what is a primary hotel and tourism associations who are these primary hotel and tourism associations you search in vain in the definition section for a definition of the word primary but you do not find it and perhaps mr. speaker just to elucidate a little a little better by using some personal experience you know mr. speaker sometimes parliament does things and parliament describes a mean a meaning to what it does but the courts may interpret what parliament has done in a different way to what parliament had intended and I can tell you it is not a very pleasant experience to appear before a judge when you are first-hand witness to passage or enactment of laws and you know what the intention of parliament was but a judge gives a different interpretation to what is enacted so when we enact legislation we have to be exceptionally careful and be clear in our minds that what we intend as law makers is what the courts understand and the court supply and so for that reason I am not so sure that the word primary has any place and I note with interest the inclusion of what is described as trade associations what are we referring to are we referring to organizations who use the word trade I don't remember whether you remember specific trade associations what are we talking about why the looseness and the lack of precision I really want to suggest that this proposal be revisited and recast so that we identify precisely what we are trying to say if it is that you're talking about the hotel and tourism association or the small hotel association then say so if you are talking about a trade association what association then say so otherwise this is cast at sea and it is left rather loose similarly we see in the amendment section and I'm looking at clause 3 paragraph c it says in subsection 4 by deleting the words the primary hotel or tourism associations and by substituting the words the relevant that is fine because in that sense the relevant association takes its color from the association being no identified before so I already would want to suggest that this be revisited notwithstanding notwithstanding what the minister is suggesting then the inclusion of a clause 36a is highly debatable it says notwithstanding a provision in any law in St. Lucia the authority is exempt from the pivot of any taxes and duties that has always been of exprovision because I remember we met it in parliament when we enacted new legislation attempting to grant concessions to new hotels this is this piece of legislation that I believe references being made to earlier on the question here is this when we use payment of any taxes and duties what do we mean do we include that does that language include that and is intended to give an exemption for that as well the reason why this is important this is because this the people in the VAT office will tell you that it does not and cannot include VAT because VAT is a special act and the VAT act itself has to be amended to grant the concessions on that and on reflection over the years in fact I'd be very honest and say when that argument was presented to me in and I had accepted that argument the way we should have gone with that act granting new concessions was very go and amend about that somehow it fell to the tracks and was not done so mrs v carl somehow mr what is it not what he has again and yes mr mba somehow it fell to the tracks so mr speaker I would want to suggest that that provision be reexamined to minimize the potential for conflict it made me that parliament may have to make the amendment effective by amending by granting the concessions specifically under the VAT legislation because of the way the VAT act is draft now mr speaker that being said I believe that this of the opportunity should have been taken to clean up this act and there may be differences of opinion about the underlying policies on the purposes for this legislation I think that has already been rehearsed but there are some very serious issues looking in this legislation that I believe should have been corrected I draw the attention of honorable members to section 19 of the act and it is perhaps unfortunate that the amendment act did not deal with this issue look at clause five at the meeting of the board the chairperson shall preside or B if the chairperson is not present the deputy chairperson shall preside or C if the chairperson or the deputy chairperson is not present the directors present shall choose one of them number preside seems clear so if a meeting is called the chairperson presides if the chairperson is not there the deputy chairperson preside if the chairperson or deputy chairperson is not present then the directors proceed with the business and elect one of those but then look at subsection six a meeting of the board is constituted if at the meeting there is the presence of the chairperson or deputy chairperson and a quorum of not less than five directors participated in the meeting obvious common sense this collides frontally with the earlier subsection that I just read and there's no escaping because five says if you have a meeting the chairperson shall preside chairperson absent deputy chairperson if both are absent the deputies proceed to elect and then it says a meeting of the board is constituted if at the meeting there is a presence of the chairperson or deputy chairperson and a quorum or not less than five so how does clause section five become operative in the face of the declaration that subsection six says that a meeting is only constituted if at the meeting there is a presence of the chairperson or deputy chairperson now I suspect I don't know maybe the people in here to any generals chambers probably have a way of interpreting this and my simple mind did not get it right but I don't understand how we can craft this this way because it seems to me that not only is it conflicting but it causes confusion now Mr Chairman Mr Speaker sorry this bill this act rather has one aspect of it that is not on not totally unusual it's not on common these things happen normally most acts will say that the minister is empowered to bring the act into force by a certain certain date now sometimes it may say that the minister may bring the act into force in parts or in sections so different parts come into force different sections come into positive effect this bill and I asserted I may be wrong does not say when it comes into force and the learning from the attorney general's chambers at least one other round suggests that where a bill does not say or does not make up a reason for it coming into force by a specified date of the minister then it is to be taken that on the bill being assented it comes into force at the time of assent that's what I've been advised even my office of parliament on this matter it's a good opportunity if if that is not so for that to be stated once we are clear then that this is the case then we move on to the next stage the question therefore is is this authority in effect and has it successfully repealed the old tourism why is this important mr. speaker the minister can correct me he can simply say I mean no I'm wrong is my understanding that a board of directors has not been appointed under this act yes or no now the ministers declined to respond that's very unusual very very unusual now yes of course I'd love to hear him everybody come on no board of directors was appointed or has been appointed then who how does the chief executive officer who I understand is this is Agnes Francis get authority to act but what position does he hold he's chair of the whole board yes but how does she get her authority to act that becomes a question if there is no board in place of course the member for ancillary countries was having a good day was gloating about the tourism figures and the performance and he was in his element this is his day but I'm not going to touch that for the moment I will leave that for more capable colleagues to do so we shall put that on the side I'm more interested in the legal I'm more interested in the legal dynamics of this of this legislation the question is if there is no board how then is expenditure authorized under let us say section 32 who gives the chairman of a non-existing board the authority to engage in expenditure now of course there might be an answer to what I'm raising the minister may be able to say in his rebuttal that look all the expenditure is being done by the Ministry of Tourism the other ones direct in expenditure nothing by the tourist board because I would want to argue and to say that if the tourism authority engaged in expenditure then it would have done so unlawfully because it had no authority to do so in fact in fact if any expenditure was incurred by the chairperson mrs. Agnes francis and she gave instructions for that expenditure the government may well be advised to validate those expenditures which she incurred because they would have occurred in the absence of a board that the legislation itself had authorized this is because these are some of the matters that the minister will need to clarify and in all sincerity well let it all use that word because you can't use a kind word you know a kind word is subject to criticism I believe that the opportunity should be taken to clean up this this act I really believe the opportunity should be taken to come back to parliament resolve the conflicts between various sections validate the expenditures clarify and clean up the drafting of the very clause 7 that we are supposed to be to be amending I think mr. Speaker and I don't say this say this lightly because I have been monitoring the issuance of statutory instruments and so on coming from the ministry of tourism there's a little one that is there's one today that was laid in parliament this speaker that is tackling and maybe not so startling because not solely because of what it does and what it gives but because of the legal authority that is cited for it now I'm referring to number 36 of 2018 to sandals let me at the outset say that the former government introduced legislation that allowed hotels if their concession period was up to request that they return to their original concessions as if of course they were getting concessions renew so let us say if a hotel was given 10 years concession in 2007 and the 10 years was in addition to a previous five years so the number of years allowed edit in 2017 that amendment legislation allowed the hotel to go back as if it were a plan for 2007 some hotels made use of it some did not but it has been a very useful instrument to assist the hotel sector this is curious and strange because if you look at section two of this order it says the declared benefits on the subsection one are applicable for a period of 15 years i'm reading two a two for a period of 15 years commencing from the 15th day of April 2013 and terminating on the 14th day of April 2028 except in respect of construction equipment which is applicable for a period of five years commencing from the 15th day of April 2013 and terminating on the 14th day of April 2018 now the question therefore is this is that applicable that dated by five years and yet if you look at the exercise of the powers it says in exercise of the powers conferred on the sections 3 5 and 13 of the tourism incentives act chapter 15 30 the minister responsible for tourism with the approval of cabinet makes this order where in this act does that authority exist to do this you can only do this if of course you turn to the amending act and decided to update the concessions in accordance with that amending act now i'm saying this mr. Speaker to simply make a point that there's a certain amount of carelessness that is occurring with some of these instruments especially as it pertains to the hotel sector and there is enough room on the existing legislation to maneuver because if you want to backdate concessions of a hotel you can do so by using that amendment act to take you back there not by using the traditional powers not by using a traditional power and of course you can ask you can ask for the questions about this because you can ask questions about well if you're talking about construction equipment how come you are coming back to 2013 for construction equipment presumably the construction has taken place so these are issues that needs to be to be resolved so mr. Speaker i am just making some simple points first i am seeing that this concept of primary hotel and tourism associations that needs to be clarified who are we talking about are we talking about a similar hotel and tourism association the small business the small small hotels who are we talking about and who are these trade organizations who are we talking about who in these trade organizers are we talking about tipa for example is that what we're talking about this needs to be clarified the second point that i'm making is this if this act is in effect and there is no board how then does the current chairperson of the board get the authority to exercise expenditure if if she has been given that being given that authority or approval how did that happen given the fact that a board should have been in place to do this the third point mr. Speaker is this the obvious collusion and conflict between some sections of the act particularly sections five and six no i don't sense that the members of this side clearly would want to stand in the way of amendments to this piece of legislation it is just clearly saying that there's too much imperfection in this and this needs to be cleaned up this really really needs to be cleaned up in time of course when the board becomes operational and i'm certain that other defects will emerge because there are bound to be defects in this structural defects but today is not the day for that especially with no some of the respective powers but we leave that alone for the time so mr. Speaker i simply want to suggest that maybe the the minister should come and read again take this go and clean it up and come back to parliament with a clean copy resolving all these deficiencies and let's have a debate on a new amendment bill well the leader of the opposition has spoken he says that will never happen i interpret that to mean well they may attack me but what is this like all of a duck's back i'm accustomed to that now how many years are there 20 years i'm the most seasoned politician when it comes to attacks doesn't matter so but i suspect the leader of the opposition is preparing for an interesting debate and perhaps you prefer to see the debate this evening but mr. Speaker this is too imperfect for parliament to approve i thank you mr speaker honorable members may i suggest at this time since the honorable yes honorable member for castries southeast mr speaker in looking at the proposed amendments you're making your contribution yes no can i can i ask you to hear me out okay honorable members i'm suggesting her in light of the fact that the prime minister is out as well as the member or the minister of tourism may i ask that we suspend the house for the next 10 minutes and then come back honorable members the question is that this house will be suspended for 10 minutes i now put the question as many as are of that opinion ci as many as are of our country opinions you know i think the eyes of it the eyes of it house is suspended for the next 10 minutes you are watching the you're watching the live broadcast of the house of assembly as indicated by the house speaker honorable and daniel the house has taken a 10 minute recess we ask that you stay tuned to the national television network the government of samusha youtube channel and of course facebook page