 Just in case YouTube was crazy and take it away. You've got it. Great. Thank you so much, Sean. Welcome everyone to the identity. Special interest group for June 1, 2023. Thanks for joining us today, everyone. My name is Shara Howland, and I'm a co-moderator of this group with Bippin Barathon and Tim Spring. And let's see today on the agenda, we will go over working group status updates as usual from progress in the community. And then we will hear a presentation from our speaker, Wenjin Chu, on the Open Wallet Foundation. So really looking forward to that. Let's see, we are in a Linux foundation call. So we are following the antitrust policy, of course, and the hyperledger code of conduct, which are written and linked here as well. This call is being recorded and streamed to YouTube and I will post that on the meeting page later today. And let's see. We can go over any introductions now. If there's anyone who would like to introduce themselves, this would be a great time. I would love to hear what you're working on in this space and Wenjin, feel free to introduce yourself now or when you start your talk either is great. I'll pop a hold on. When I talk, I can spend a little bit of time on that. Sounds great. Yeah, Daniel, I see you have a note in the chat. You'll moderate an Open Wallet keynote at Identiverse. And yeah, thanks for joining before that. We're glad you're here. It is my sincere pleasure. And if it makes sense to join again and to coordinate it, I would be thrilled to do so. I just, unfortunately, because I'm moderating, I have to prepare the panel and really have a hard stop in 26 minutes. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely understand what we're here every every two weeks at the same time on Thursday, so you're welcome anytime and very encouraged to join. So thanks for joining today. Thank you, Tara. I'll introduce myself. So for those of you who don't know me, I think I know most of the folks on the call, but my name is Tracy Kurt and I am the technical oversight committee chair for the hyperledger foundation. I am also the technical advisor council chair for the open wallet foundation. So wanted to join in the call. I know that there has been some conversations between the two communities of hyperledger foundation and the open wallet foundation. And wanted to just be here to make sure that I was adding support on both sides and also answer any questions as we get to the topic on the open wallet foundation. Thank you so much for being here Tracy. Great to have you and I'm not sure we've met directly yet but I've definitely seen your name around the community so great to have you on the call. All right, any other introductions anyone would like to make. We've also got just a couple announcements in June, early June there's the digital identity on conference in Europe. Next week and then as well the did hack decentralized identity hackathon looks like there's a need for an areas developer to monitor discord to answer participant questions if anyone is interested in that or know someone who might be interested. Are there other announcements or anything else anybody would like to to say before we jump into our working group updates. Sure, I have two really small ones number one yesterday we had the non creds workshop which is really well attended really well received. Stephen Karan, Redulf Miranda and Patrick San Luis did just a fantastic job over three and a half hours walking folks through it on creds. That has been recorded to YouTube it's up on the hyper ledger YouTube now and the wiki page has all the links and the labs and the directions and the prep so if you want to take it along with the folks who did it yesterday you're more than welcome to. So in the planning stages of a areas framework JavaScript workshop for later in June, I'm coordinated with that team, but they've got a new release coming out shortly 0.4.0. And so we're really excited to support them in that workshop and the minute I can. This is a me problem not that team problem and then I get that date locked down on my side. We're going to let folks know about it. Great. Thank you for mentioning those the sound. I was able to catch some of the non kids workshop yesterday and it was really well done. So, yeah, thank you for those announcements, and I also will drop the wiki link into the chat. If you would like to put your name down on the attendees list that would be wonderful. And for my co chairs VIP in and Tim, do you have anything to say or add before we jump into the working group updates. I would like to say a couple of things. One is, I did see engine at the Dublin, then ranging to at Dublin and I mentioned to him about the identity working group and so glad that he's here. The other thing is this is now a conjoined version of two parallel streams. One is, of course, the strategic outlook, which means not just focused on identity but how it's used in the real world, which is very important, I believe. And that is was the original identity working groups of aims. The other, of course, as ably led by char and by team spring was the implementers working group. That was also part of the identity working group. Now we have joined forces as the identity sick, and we do not have split meetings anymore. And I'm so glad that char and Tim are taking leadership over this. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, but then it's, it's great to have joined forces and merged our groups. And, and thanks for that introduction I was looking at the, the wiki and just realize, Oh, this name seemed to be going in alternate. Thanks for that background introduction. And it was very nice meeting you there in in in Dublin. So taking me a little bit but you know I'm here today. We're really glad you're here when Jen and looking forward to your talk. So thanks for taking the time. All right, unless anyone has any other announcements or introductions to make we can jump right into the working group updates. The Indy contributors call on our latest call last week we reviewed open issues on indy node and plenum part of a larger project to clean up the indy be both and so discussed and commented closed those which was good progress. Let's see. The areas working group. Let's see I see Sam joined would you want to give a brief update on the last couple meetings in that group. So the last the call yesterday was mostly focused around more like an update from a philosophical perspective of all versus agent scope work, etc. And the, the call or two previous that was mostly focused on discussions around the open law foundation which we'll hear from Jing about today. Great. Thanks for those updates. Let's see, did anybody on this call attend the areas by fold user group. This week. Looks like they're going over had a talk about the by fold updates, working on cleaning up some technical debt and bugs and then expert working on accessibility and documentation. And then as well the status of the npm publishing update. So, in the cloud agent Python user group. We gave a quick update on the BC gov code with us to update acobi to use the hyper ledger and non cuts. Implementation. We updated the amount cuts RS build. We've also updated some tails file handling which solved a circular dependency problem that we were encountering really close to MVP on revocation working with issuance and presentation so that's the final bits there. Also did some merging and talked about converting from unqualified periods to did peer three. All right. Anybody attend the areas framework JavaScript meetings last week or the week before looks like in that group as well they've been talking about the future of areas and discussing as as well the recent topics and the areas working group calls that Sam mentioned, as well as how to, how to create resources that make getting started with AFJ, most helpful and and welcoming to newcomers. Also working on iOS support, it looks like on the, they got a status update on the shared components. And oh it looks like they also had a presentation from I believe, Karim of animal on the future future architecture of AFJ. All right, anybody attend the any recent or some meetings I guess I'm not sure they've had any recent synchronous meetings. I do know that the end of life PR got merged in. It was on Tuesday. And so now that now Ursa is in the hyper ledger archives, but those new repos have been created under hyper ledger the Indie BLS signatures RS the wrap the Python wrapper for that as well a non cred CL signatures and areas BBS signature so those are all moved into their respective projects. And the hyper ledger and non creds meeting last week. They of course had the big workshop yesterday but they've also been talking about about, they got an update from the non kids the to working group looks like next week they're having a presentation, or they're talking about presentation data models and they also had a presentation of a generic research group on a revocation scheme. Specifically, the be revocation. The veto. I definitely not saying that revocation, which is a dynamic accumulator based revocation schema, and there are slides there. You'd like to learn more. And then also getting updates on the non cuts RS implementation progress. All right, looks like those are all of our hyper ledger groups that we keep an eye on moving over to the trust over IP foundation. As far as I could tell, there haven't been meetings in the last two weeks from the all members meeting student committee, but for those from from to IP on the call, feel free to jump in and correct me. Let's see. So it looks like governance stack working group had a recent meeting. Two weeks ago did anybody on this group attend that meeting. It's a presentation of the Rosie system, which is a documentation system targeted towards governance. It's an automated content management system that unifies and maintains concurrent decentralized authentic content across ecosystem. So sounds like a really interesting presentation. Technology stack working group and the, the many task forces underneath that. When Jen it looks like you're involved on the technology architecture task force. Yes, and I believe in the last maybe more than two weeks, three weeks potentially. There's been mostly a lot of people are traveling in conferences. So this is hopefully the last week after the anniversary, I think we will start to have new updates again. Okay, thank you. Yeah, seems like it is conference season. That's going on at once. It seems yeah. Great. Lynn, it looks like you have your handle up. I'll go back a little bit there. The governance architecture task force had a meeting last night that I attended. I haven't been there for a while but they were, they were talking about some great things regarding and a little bit about governance. Sorry, what's the governance where it's all automated in your code, and they had some comments on that so if anyone's interested in, and in some of that there was some some great contributions and conversations and not sure I agreed with all of it but it was, it was interesting and and fun to hear what they had they say about trust and a little bit about trust registries and some of the some of their comments on the governance work that in DCO is working on so if anybody's interested to go, they have a recording of it. Oh, great. Yeah, thank you for mentioning that if you happen to have a link to that recording. I'm going to send it my way and I can put it on here. So thank you for mentioning that. All right. Let's see it looks like there's lots going on in these technology stack working group task forces. Looks like and Lynn correct me if I'm wrong looks like the utility founder group is still on hiatus working, working currently with the governance architecture task force. Cool. And let's see anybody attend the ecosystem foundry working group or concepts and terminology meetings. All right, it looks like the ecosystem foundry group hasn't met this past month but concepts and terminology has been talking about the terminology engine v2. And then as well the terminology design workshop for the trust spanning protocol and the to IP glossary workspace. Are there any to IP announcements or updates that anybody would like to give. All right, moving on to the centralized identity foundation. Looks like the, the did come spec working groups since they meet on the first Monday of every month we've reported on on their recent goings on in our last meeting. But it looks like there was a May 22 meeting from the user group. Was anybody able to attend that one. Sam were you involved in that one. I was there wasn't one on Monday, but there was the previous week, and we talked about a number of things including some marketing efforts around did come as a technology as well as the potential, or actually this is actually, perhaps to happen, even independent of an OWF move but just more did come protocol work happening in the user group, rather than in areas where some of it has happened traditionally. Interesting. It's good meeting. Great. Yeah, thanks for that updates. Let's see in the diff interoperability group they met recently looks like it was mainly introductions of new people to the group and kind of free form discussion. And let's see. Anybody attend any recent IOT special interest group meetings. Sorry, did I hear somebody speak up on that. And then lastly, we have the W3C standard on the did working group or community credentials group anybody attend any of these calls who would like to give a brief report. Any other general working group updates, feel free to jump in. Before we move on to the next segment of our call and Lynn thank you for. Thank you for dropping the link in the chat so I will make sure to add that to the meeting page. All right, if that is sufficient time for people to jump in with anything else they wanted to say. I think I will go ahead and turn it over to Wenjin for your presentation. Let me give up the screen share for you if you'd like to use it. All right. Thank you. All right, so probably, you know, a quick introduction to myself. I a senior director on technology strategy at future way. And I'm going to reuse some of the exact slide deck I just used in open source summit. So my work probably intersect with lots of you on here in hyper ledger in trust of IP. And hopefully in open water foundation as well as my most of my work is in open source or sometimes standards organizations at at future way. The little bit of a quick history on. Open water foundation. And I want to, you know, thank you for for this opportunity to come here. I think there are many organizations and communities working on very closely related problems. And I think we should do more of this and and hope in the future will have more regular interactions like this. The open water foundation. I think Daniel is still here. And Tracy. How this start probably first gathering would be the OSS EU in Dublin. This is September of last year. And then quick forward to the official launches in February of this year so it's a very new organization. And Daniel really is the key for us to, you know, have a foundation at all. And his energy and vision really bring all of us together. And I want to say that from that day in Dublin for fast forward all these several months on the way. I personally learned so many different aspects and feel that a lot of the issues become much more clear. These four open water becomes much more clear over these, these months or hopefully I would share that with you all today, and also want to say that most of the, you know, that the material will be very much like, you know, we've been discussing in open one foundation. Anything I could, I will try to add my personal view as well but I will try to keep the balance between the two and maybe reuse mostly exiting material and then later in open discussion, you know, share what I think that some of the, you know, questions there maybe the open wide foundation is also part of the Linux Foundation digital trust initiative so that was announced in Vancouver as well. And high pleasure Dave trust of IP and C to PA for example and other confidential computing is another one or in this space showing you how interdependent and related they are. So I have some sponsorship and community membership. That is, this is probably one month old. I don't know whether new ones, but basically, you know, a lot of the names that you would recognize and some of them very respected and active in this, you know, larger community. What is wallet and an open wallet. So this is my understanding this is a a diagram with a bit older or a presentation I used back in open source finance forum in December last year, and I was trying to see in very high We have wallet that proprietary and that's very commonly seen in both iOS and and Android ecosystems. And also we have open source or and open standard based the wallets so that's one way to think about it. The other way to think about it is of a specialized wallet versus a general purpose wallet. So, in, I think in both cases for for these two wallets shown there are general purpose you could have multiple type of things or assets or object types in the wallet. And then on other side that you may have a very special wallet that's designed for a specific purpose. It could it be, you know, from a single bank, for example, or it could it be, let's say, only to show a certain type of ID. And so that will be, you know, one way to look at it I think that open wallet fund is trying to look at a more general purpose and also open source and open standard based. So this diagram would have showed the, you know, all the many different purposes, different asset types within the wallet container itself so one way we'll look at it would be a wallet as a container. But also many different assets or object types that's within it. So the when we look at the scope. I think I read about, you know, the, the debate in in a hyperledger on wallet versus agent. And I think the way we use the word wallet is a more in in time to say I guess so you would mean of course the agents and other functionality or standards for example protocols behind it that support these data types right. So from a consumer point of view it will be seen as various type of wallet implementation or products that's based on these core component and that they implement some, you know, combination or subset of these potential these types, and they can show up in various formats, whether it's on, you know, a mobile phone, or he says or some kind of hardware token or desktop cloud, all those are valid, you know, variations. And so the analogy in you know it's not perfect one we always get to is a browser construction. And again the browser typically have a good quality open source engine as a starting point. You know, when we dig deeper of course these analogy don't work that well but hopefully the idea is the same that you have standards you have, you know, open source source implementations and potentially various kinds of application can come out of it. So one thing I would add myself would it be like instead of just browsers, these engines are actually commonly used for various applications that people don't necessarily link that back to browsers right so this is quite common nowadays to build the application whether it's mobile or on desktop side or server side that is essentially behind the scene there's a open source engine of some kind of browser engine running there. So, so that would be perfectly good way to think about this as well. And so we want to sort of position open wallet as a, as a neutral place that these type of open source software implementations can happen in open source, which will support various kinds of standards. I think these names are just, you know, pick that certain time, but there's quite a bit of different kind of stands which will support different type of, you know, I've been calling it a digital assets or object types. There's a another instance of rules or regulations. So this one, I think we are still experimenting or understanding what exactly it need to be, and how this may be implemented. And I think if you mentioned in the update on qips governance structure of automating, you know, policies when all governance rules, right. So those rules and how that should be programmed how that should represent is a very interesting and new areas that we need to tackle on. So this is, you know, explicitly recognized that is a, is an important task that we need to do in a normal water. And so this has been, I saw this has been, you know, posted in the monopolies. We're trying to come up with a simple mission statement is probably not as easy as it is. The task we have so far. And there's a, you know, a few I think important point one is collaboration and and to drive for global adoption. So interoperability and the ability to adapt to different regions, different regulations, while keep open secure and interoperable those are important goals to have. And as a part of that challenge that we thought a governance advisory council would it be very useful and we Daniel will say we model this on the ITS and you know icons similar structure so hopefully involvement of these governmental entities in the in this console would help us to at least recognize and hopefully help solving the problems that combine governance and the technology solutions together so that's that's one aspect of that. The other things also quite interesting or important to understand its goals and scope is the last statement, you know, about the best practices on these with standard based that issuers wallet providers relying parties, essentially all the parties in the ecosystem why for for a solution tend used to bootstrap their implementations for for their products and that preserves user choice security and privacy. So this I think this implies that the scope is a lot bigger than a narrow sense of a wallet, we also needed the things that was inside the wallet but also other tools and infrastructure systems that maybe needed in order for this to work. So, anyway, that's my reading of like sort of understanding of what the mission statement look like. The structure is very, very similar. So probably scan most of this is very similar to high pleasure. I think this must be copied from the pleasure. The primary, I think a new thing here is the government's advice console that we mentioned before, the rest of the setup, I think look very similar. The difference is that we've chosen to host this in Linus Foundation Europe itself a very new thing. And this is to recognize that there are a lot of European efforts trying to get a digital service. EIS and others and, and there's a consulate, you know, a organized effort right in Europe, European Union, to push for a standard way of doing digital identity and many of to support many kinds of digital services so for that reason for many other reasons in order to sort of diversify our membership base, you know, being more welcoming and avoid any kind of a geopolitical concerns that some of the members may have. We've chosen to host it in Europe. Okay, so. So far from this slide and forward are my personal understanding. So just want to put that forward and welcome any input and feedback. We think to wallet is really important in the future digital economy. Because it is a key component to overall trust framework. It is a very general sense of, you know, we look at the world wallet what does it mean it means I think it's the original meaning is that knapsack is something we keep things valuable. It's quite open, open ended thing right and so the. It can be credential money that sort of thing but also can be any type of digital objects. It's also a place for people to exercise control so you know for example consent selective disclosure signing. It is a, it's a, it's a way to exercise control. And both of those things are very important. And so it's not just sort of a safe, a secure storage but also, you know, how do we use these things in order to enable applications and enrich the digital services much safer and privacy concern convert conserving. So those are, I think, a one way to look at them and then it is also the most direct personal interface. What do you think we're going to have. And so it's very personal right it is a, it's a, it's a, it's a mean for, for people to take, take control better control of their digital life. So it is for that matter it will be very important for, you know, for agency for the sort of convenience of use, which is, I think, equally important so I think the burden of so called choices and complexity is a impediment to a lot of these goals. And so those, I think, to me, right, I think it's important to fall into the scope as well. And, and so, and so that the wallet therefore holds the key to this trust and all the new wave of occasion that we need that trust. It can be more very well lined in the privacy centric, and give us the authenticity of the authentic wisdom high level of trust. And so those will be like I look at what is wallet and what we need to do. I hope these are more maybe imprecise, but hopefully more open and broad view of what wallet need to be. It's a better way to, I think, describe the scope. I have probably, let me see time to to one or two more slides. One thing I want to also show is in terms of the importance of a wallet is this diagram, which is from the ARF is the architecture reference framework of the EU's digital identity, where the pink governance rose. So we've talked about governance and why it's so important. So these are, for example, national accreditation body, right, that will be a governmental probably organization there. And then the yellow or the primary rose. So these would it be a, a provider will be a provider for accreditation or assertion. Sorry, a test station, sorry, right so credential issuers. The crime party is on the right side. And then wallet provider will be, you know, our customer who, sorry, our yeah customer of our community who would it take to be open source code and produce these. Those will be the providers and device manufacturer and user in the middle. So you can see the diagram shows both the sort of production of a wallet but also the use cases around it. But the center around all of this is this purple and that's the wallet. So hopefully this graphically shows the central role that a wallet will play. I really like this diagram as you know that deep into it it shows a lot of relationships and what the wallet need to do. We've got a huge amount of experience and learning from DC government. And they're, you know, this, this, this is a love to see them order presentations in Vancouver. And a proper functioning wallet that you can download and be able to, you know, support all these features. So as a great example of that, have a slide going to many different kinds of things we think the open source wallet can help to, you know, help implement implementers as well as the employers to really make this ecosystem work. And so that's the, you know, different kind of applications we're looking at. There's a lot of new opportunities once a such a wallet will be in billions of people's hands. I think they opens up a lot of new opportunities to this. So the last two slides I want to basically report back a little bit on where we are. So these slides, let me stop the slides and probably would go to a page here as how to get involved. So this is the open wallet foundations, GitHub page, and the best way to really get involved would be these ones. So you have mailing list, discord, GitHub, special interest groups, task forces. Since the, let me see, the February to now, we've set up most of the processes. Our first two projects just got approved. The main process on the life cycle goes. Hopefully we very familiar to you as well into these three stages so that will be labs growth and impact. We have two lab projects. Let me click here. And the sponsor page we are by. Sorry, this is what I'm trying to look at where our membership overlap. Let me see. Okay, so I don't have open here, but we'll probably go into there. And let me. This is the current lead both of our projects are in lab stage. So here are the two of them. Oh, Tracy. Okay, yeah, so we have. Yeah, so we have the job. And the second one is is the job. Python, correct. That's correct. Yeah, we're waiting on the Python one to get things like DCO set up on the repository before we transferred over. So we're working with the in the open wallet foundation labs area. Exactly. And there are on running special interest groups. I think the one I want to highlight, which I was doing earlier is the architecture sick, and it's having many of the meetings and you will recognize many of the topics as well. And so that will be, you know, for a general audience, this will be really good place to get started. The tech meeting and all others are I think it better to look for in this page where I was earlier on the on this list. So we use discord. Have we created the okay we have. We have the architecture special interest group and a credential format comparison special interest group love to see that to get started that's brand new and just approved yesterday. We are still growing and I hope if I could go back to the page I think there's a interest in seeing more sponsorship and community, our community, I think overlap very much a lot. And, but we will see, hopefully in the next few months or so that our support group or grow and, you know, the community gets more organized and more mature. And I think I want to stop here and maybe see Tracy and if Daniel still here have anything to add. I think those are good sorts of overview. I think Sandy has a couple of questions that he's put into the chat that is probably good for us to talk through and answer. So I'll just say do you want to do you want to ask them verbally. No, not that crazy. Thank you. I think my just put my questions over there for this week and get them when you get there yet. Yeah, let me see the two questions one is what's been done to looping current major players like Google pay Apple pay Samsung PayPal and so forth. So the current foundation I in Python. Oh, sure. Yeah, I will get to the second one for us this first one is a little bit but so the second one on current to the two projects in Python, I caught on for SD jot for anyone who's not familiar. So it's a self this, sorry, selective disclosure is SD. And so it's a job based Web token based mechanism to support selective disclosure of credentials. And that's the current the two projects. We expect a lot more projects would join us. That's more broad and potentially give the coherence, for example for the supporting structure of a wallet, etc. And so until those happens. Currently these are the two projects you would see in our website. Good website. There are tons of, you know, major players. If Daniel's here then you can say more. Are you still here. It looks like Daniel had to drop. Okay, so I want to say that we have very productive and active discussions with some of these. We have very positive response coming from them. So we hope to have at least some of them major ones join us in the in the near future. We're looking forward to that we are in active discussion and learning quite a lot about, you know, different aspects of this ecosystem where are they from. We also in naturally very closely discussing many of the large number of parties in the use digital identity effort there. And so we also in very close contact with those groups and Daniel, you know, would be able to say much more eloquently on the progress there, but I would say that we definitely looking forward to those changes. Tracy also mentioned that we are not leaning and your only and if you I can go back to this picture right because the way we define wallet to be very much general purpose and an open and again similar to a browser engine. I think part of the problem of today's open source browser implementation is that it's too monolithic it has lots of things packed into one so using them as a embedded component tend to be was a very heavy weight at least and couldn't be difficult. So we want to, you know, hopefully avoid those problems and be more modular and the operating system we're looking at different not enjoy only we hope for that can be going to both the sort of GMS, you know, featured enjoy solutions as well as all the other more open source solutions can be supported. And we will see how iOS will work and there's a probably very interesting question on where those framework will look like for supporting different operating systems in the mobile side, but also on the non mobile, you know, on the web cloud and other hardware and devices as well. So those are the Let me see we would. Yeah, so we would definitely hope to parties to join us on supporting other operating systems. And I think I've been at least personally been talking to quite a few of them that have expressed a very strong interest in doing exactly that. So modularity will help us and the framework will help us to hopefully better solve that problem. Any other questions for me. This is a Tim here I have a question. I'm something caught my eye on slide seven I think it was talk about a government I may be wrong. There was one side talked about the structuring of a government advisory on government technical advisory. Yes, so I'm sorry. I was curious about how you get how to possibly get involved in that I think government has very unique requirements around the issue of credentials that are very different from from sort of private private sector. And I don't know if you have any insight into how that that council is formed or what the what the process is. Yes, so we've had several discussions and there's a proposal. I think being reviewed several times already so we will hope to public announce it right away and if you could send me your contact me directly. I would introduce you to this, I will wait for the governing board to approve the, you know, the charter and all that. Hopefully very quickly very shortly, potentially next meeting I believe, and, and get us started so we are in the, you know, preparation stage of that. Awesome. Thank you very much. Yeah, great project. Absolutely, we want to get that you know as broad representation as possible in this space so we've looked at it how other group trying to run this and learn you know the best practices and experience from those groups. And if anyone has a suggestions or recommendations or feedback, how to better to do that we all ears, which we're trying to get this started as soon as possible. Do we have time for another question. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, I think somebody else has gone gone. Yeah, sorry about that. A couple sides down you had a diagram with a list of things that walls do in the middle, and then things I don't remember which slide it was. But I had a question about that the the. It was supposed to black and white keep going. Keep going. Yeah. So that's the bottom. Let me go backwards. I'll go up further and I just missed it. Keep going. Not this one. No, it was a it was a whole long list of all the different types of things that walls hold that one right there. It's five. Oh, number five. Oh, this one. Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah. So the question I have is that the list of all the things in the middle here are all what you might call credential focused of one form or another. Meaning it's a, it's a piece of signed data that is more or less and being a little bit imprecise here but it's a little piece of signed data that is then passed to held and then and then acted on by the by the user that holds it in their wallet and none of the things listed here are separate from that. Meaning there's no user to user communication or other types of interactions that might be between different parties in the ecosystem but but don't necessarily focus on credentials. Can you comment on the scope of the open wall foundations goals as it relates to non credential related activities. Yeah, I think this, this problem comes up quite a bit I remember in the choice of IP discussion as well because you know in trust IP, they want to say that the scope in their technology stack is not purely for credentials, and people with difficulty is trying to sort of put a name on those things and they not be credentials. And so this is not a uncommon challenge and this diagram probably shows that as well. I would say that the, if you look at the some of the other slides I used. It's not the intent. So, when we come up with these names and examples, it might show a little bit that way, but it's not the intent. I guess I would say like, usually the answer is like, for example money is not so in an app payment. And credit depth because not credentials right so potentially the NFTs are not credentials. Nevertheless, I think you're right that it is sometimes hard to put other names in this so that will be very good to feedback I would like to, you know, maybe improve this diagram so we don't give that imprecise impression that way. And the, but I, you know, the way I look at the wallet. Again, it's not just a container holding stuff, but also a way to exercise control that could mean messaging couldn't mean, you know, just as a way to sign stuff. It could mean controlling your data so there's a various kinds of implementations I think proposes out there of how do I keep private data essentially have a direct control of how this private data are distributed and use the sector right so all those I would say in scope or this type of intent to show that may not be doing the best job. Thanks. And I hope that also put the question, the debate about wallet versus agent in some fashion as well. And clearly noted these objects in, you know, in the wallet app eventually work, or the agent potentially is probably the essential core of that implementation. And now, not every product need to include all the components in it but a, the agent potentially could be the center of it. That's the one that everybody would need to have. You know, you can imagine different data types or different protocols as a somewhat of a plugin into that overall implementation. And which produces these what we call a wallet is that it's beyond a secure storage but the actual engine for the application itself. So, what you know errors community call agent, I think naturally is the core of that wallet. And I would run out of time any other. Oh yeah, so Tracy mentioned is a sick. Diagram use case. Yeah. Yeah, I used to use that diagram as well which goes into these software structure. I don't know again. Show it quickly. Tracy that link doesn't work. Okay, anyway, just a dot at the end if you take that off the work. Oh, I see. Okay. Yes. Oh, I see. Okay. I think we're going to be fumbling into the wrong place. So if I could go there. Yeah, here. Okay, great. This is the first time it's seen this picture, but there's architecture picture in the same sense and this is really the use cases picture as well. Yeah, you're looking for when Jing was under the architecture folder there's a conceptual architecture diagram as well. Okay, here's the one I think it shows up relate to the design and wallet as you know storage and protocols and the policy agent I like this one dot dot dot. I think this is this a lot of interesting thing could happen here. So, again, you know, the, how do we express those policies and how do we actually make them become a pluggable component into the overall implementation architecture those are very interesting questions. Yeah, so I run out of my time and I'll probably stop here. If there are any other last questions. Yeah, it looks like it looks like we're at the just over the top of the hour. Unless anyone has any final questions jump in with our things to say. When Jim thank you so much for joining us and for a great presentation and discussion really, really appreciate you joining us this morning so thank you. Thank you all and I'm glad to be here. Thanks. I'm honored to present here for a bon wallet. And hopefully we can keep this conversation going. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you everyone else for joining and giving your working group updates and reports and we'll see you all in two weeks. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.