 The panel that we have assembled for you today includes a very prominent and highly esteemed former head of state in the person of President Joachim Chisano, who we have on the panel with us, Professor Ian Shapiro from Yale University. We have Akere Timuna from Transparency International. We have Winnie Bianjima with us from Oxfam and Moe Ibrahim, who requires hardly any introduction, who's very well known for the Ibrahim Foundation's index that measures governance. So I'd like to welcome our entire panel. And I'd like to hand over and start with President Chisano to share some of his insights and thoughts with us on the importance of governance, particularly in a context where Africa is seeing significant interest in its investment opportunities, in new forms of resource extraction, new forms of strategic resources that are being discovered, gas, oil, many of the areas where the continent has had significant challenges in the past. And we are really in the midst of a wealth of experience in the form of President Chisano. Thank you very much. I have to say that I'm happy to notice that in Africa there's more and more good awareness about the value of governance, democracy, and leadership. The world is changing, and so Africa also is changing. Fortunately, I may conclude that Africa is changing towards the positive. More people are more educated, more inquisitive, more demanding. And so this requires also a change in the attitude of the leadership. And the attitude of leadership changes when there's a good interaction between the people and the leadership itself. And when I say that people are more inquisitive, they want to know how they are being ruled in each country. So participation of the people is very important so that they understand what are the objectives of the government, of their leaders, and they have to participate with their inputs, with their views. And so it's important to bring these people into power. As normally we say that the power is with the people, but in the past it was not always like that. So we in Mozambique, we have done a lot in that sense. We had a participation. You have referred here, women participating in Rwanda, but I may say that in Mozambique also we have done a lot in that field, 35% of the members of parliament are women. And this is the target for this other region. So we may have a bit more. And the cabinet also have many women in business and in the public sector also have women. And this comes through an open dialogue with the civil society and the private sector. So to start with, I would stop there and we'll take any other questions. Thank you very much for that input. Certainly we see a new act of citizenry emerging on our continent. We have much greater levels of transparency, youth participation requiring much more input in terms of accountability, in terms of looking at accountability for decisions whether those decisions are in resource sectors, whether those decisions are in terms of extractive industries. When we look at some of the trends on governance, your index has measured governance, methodologically very sound measurement systems that have been constructed in your index. You have however in recent years decided not to award rewards for governance. What have been the reasons for the thought processes in terms of your foundation's decisions around awarding and not awarding rewards for governance on our continent? I think these are two totally separate issues. The index is a measure, scorecard for governance in each country. I was just saying that these are two separate issues. The governance is a scorecard for the performance of governance. We think governance is about deliverables. What governments need to deliver to its own people? And we measure 88 parameters there. Governments under really four major areas, namely rule of law and safety, human development which helps in education, et cetera, economic opportunity which is management of public finances, infrastructure, water, electricity, all that stuff, and finally participation and rights. So we measure everything. Governments really need to deliver to its own people. And I think that's an important scorecard to evaluate the progress of governance over the year in each country. It's a basis for a healthy, objective discussion between government and people and business and to really know what's the best practice how to move forward. The price is something completely different. And that's done actually by the price committee, which I'm not a member of. The price is really for leadership. And what we're looking for here is excellence in leadership. Leaders who come and really take their countries forward. And sometimes have to make really tough decisions. And this can happen in countries which are probably down in the index. President Shoshano was our first laureate. Mozambique is quite low in the governance table because there is lack of infrastructure, lack of education, health, et cetera, understandable. But that doesn't stop a leader who come and really change the country, introduce democracy, liberalise the economy, stop the civil war, saves a lot of lives. This is a great act of leadership, which is honoured. So let us separate the two issues from each other. You say we're having offered the price in the... Well, in six years we had three winners. And I'm glad to see all of them actually here. Three years we didn't have a winner. And this is not our problem actually. It's somebody else's problem. What we do is we don't lose credibility. If there is a winner, there is a winner. If there is no winner, there is no winner. And we don't see any problem with that. And we're looking for excellence. Excellence is not a normal commodity. I mean, I've asked many questions in Europe always when I have some event there. And my answer always has been, okay, we are happy to offer this to European leader. Can you tell me European leader who deserve this prize? And people just laugh in Europe. So as you look around them and say, what European leader should we do in this? So it is working for exceptional people. And we'll just keep our standards there. And we're not worried about that at all. May I? Absolutely, Your Excellency. May I add something which people asked me the same question, and what more didn't say, is that this prize is given to the leaders who are out of government, not those who are in, and those who have been out in the last three years. And sometimes there is no one. Three years ago there was no one. In the last three years there was no one left office. So that is the problem. They are not there. But now this year there will be many elections, and maybe next year we'll have a lot of... Yes, but we cannot talk. Please understand, I'm not a member of the prize committee. It is a completely independent, very respectable committee. We have three Nobel Prize winners there, and X3, etc. So it is inappropriate for me even to comment on this year's crop of presidents. I mean, it's nothing to do with me really. The committee declares that. And we have a frame of work, and that's it. Thank you. I have a suspicion we're going to have an avalanche of tweets dealing with this matter, and indeed potentially nominating candidates. I'd like to then just turn to Akira, because when we debate debates on governance, we often simply look at the state, and we look at public sector leadership. But when we look at issues of governance accountability, there certainly is an equal measure in terms of looking at the role of the private sector and other stakeholders. Indeed, as Robert also introduced the topic, we use it in transparency international. How do you look at these issues of governance and accountability, looking at all role players, not only engaging with role players who happen to be in elected public office, but all the role players who are relevant to the governance debate? Well, at CHI, we look at it as a systemic problem, because it is systemic. And I think that's the error we make looking at the problem in snippets. And I agree with the president that the level of awareness has increased. It is true. But when you get to that junction of awareness, do you go towards acceptance, or you go towards change? And what worries me in Africa is that in many cases, we are going towards acceptance of the situation. I'll give you a quick example. I won't tell you what country. The election just took place, and I met a friend, I said, listen man, who are you going to vote for? He looked at me and said, Ali Baba, Ali Baba is not a candidate. He says, well, within his clear, the only 40 thieves, the other people I really don't know. But that is acceptance of the situation. It's not good enough. We want to go towards awareness that empowers the citizens and causes them to demand change. If we don't do that, we will never make that quantum leap. And that's what bothers me in the way we are looking about problems of governance. It is systemic, and things are happening. Look at Malawi, they moved from paying salaries in cash, the move to turning out 160,000 workers to be paid through banks. And every month, they save $2 million. So they are practical things that are systemic. The use of cash in Africa is amazing. From ministers to presidents to people going on a mission when there's a solution. And I think that there are little things that can be done to make sure that the counter moves ahead. The other problem is which addresses part of your question is can we expect those who accuse of mismanaging the system to bring about change? In other words, can you actually expect the fish to vote the budget to buy the hooks? That is a tall order. And I think that is where all the actors are important. And that's the problem we have is that in our continent we believe that traction towards better governance can only be gotten by those who are in charge of running the system. If you don't open it up and bring in all the actors, you will have the problem. But I think there are good examples practices going on that we don't look at. And for example, if you look at all countries in Africa where you've had a vice president the transition has been phenomenal. Look at Malawi, what happened? Look at Ghana, look at Nigeria. I'm saying that things are happening but for some reason we are looking elsewhere. Ian, and from where you sit looking at some of the possible innovations that can also assist in terms of some of the challenges in the governance debate where do you see some of the innovations leading us? Because when we look at the work that you do certainly on competition, particularly also electoral competition one of the key challenges is in the political sphere when we are looking at governance. What innovations can you see emerging from the work and the research that you have done? Well I think, thank you for the question. And I think that it's a great forum that we are talking about political governance in the World Economic Forum because I think some of the most important changes that need to occur to support and institutionalize and make systemic the turnover of power is actually rooted in the economy because it's certainly good to have changes in rules such as term limits and this sort of thing that can have an effect but at the end of the day unless the incentives are aligned changes in the rules will not turn out to be enough. Political scientists routinely say that a country can't be said to be a democracy until a government has twice lost an election and given up power. That's actually a pretty stern test. By that test the U.S. was not a democracy until 1840 and India were not democracies until pretty recently South Africa would not be a democracy yet. It's a pretty stern test and if you look at what is the best predictor of when countries, when alternation starts to occur the curious thing is that the best predictor of alternation is alternation. So the issue is how does it get started? When governments become habituated to giving up power, having lost elections, a big part of the battle is over. And if you go back and look, for example, at the first turnout over in the U.S. in 1800 it was very unclear for a period of several weeks that there was actually going to be a turnover of power. And the more you study this the more you see that a big part of the reason was that foreign players saw alternatives to politics. That politics was not win or take all politics or lose all politics because there were other things for Jefferson and his contemporaries to go off and do. And I think that even today I saw an article in a newspaper a couple of days ago that Al Gore is now worth $200 million because he's made from his various movies and things since he left office. If you want politicians to be willing to give up power it's got to be attractive for them to do that. And the key to that is diversification of the economy. So long as you have very undiversified economies then whoever gets to control the commanding heights of the economy controls everything else. And that's why people are so reluctant to give up political power. And so for that reason I think it's very propitious that many of the economic sessions have been discussing things like diversification of the economy because I think in the end that's going to be vital for politics. Thank you. When you were using it in the overseas development assistance space do you see changes in alterations in how the development agencies globally are looking at questions of covenants? Well I'd like to respond to that question by focusing my answer on Africa. We see that in Africa for the foreseeable future Africa is going to be depending on its natural resources. Its natural resource wealth will be what our people will depend on and we believe that unless we can get our leaders to take responsibility for the collection of these resources the allocation of these resources and the spending of these resources and do this in a transparent manner in an environment where people can use their power to hold them to account then really we will not be able to take the continent out of poverty. So for us governance for Africa the big issue we want to focus on is the governance of the natural resources and in that regard we are looking at all kinds of measures for example that will make our governments more transparent in the mobilization of the resources. We are putting the pressure not just on the governments but on the corporate sector because private companies have a responsibility too to be to declare what they earn and to let people know so that they can follow up how their resources are being used so we are looking for legislation, frameworks that will require companies to be open and transparent and also we want human rights to be safeguarded because transparency alone cannot achieve what we want if the laws don't give freedom to people to speak up, to organize, to protest then transparency by itself, disclosure by itself is not useful. So we want human rights frameworks frameworks that protect the environment and frameworks that enable openness of information and enable accountability. So our focus is very much both on governments and the corporate sector. So how does one take this forward at a Pan-African level because the risk will always be that they could potentially be erased to the bottom on many of these issues and that countries would actually engage in very negative forms of competing with one another on some of these areas where there ought to be objective standards, ethical standards, clear standards. Is there a sense that at the same time that we are entering this cusp of opportunity on our continent, the risks are significant at a Pan-African level your Excellency, perhaps over to you, we're also looking at the 10th anniversary of the African peer review mechanism. So is there an opportunity here to debate these issues much more profoundly at a Pan-African level to really intervene and ensure that there is no race to the bottom on these issues of governance? Yes, I think that there is a good opportunity now to discuss about this because some of our countries are taken by surprise. Like in my country, for instance, we discover huge resources of different kind, minerals, gas and we're still waiting for oil to come. So, but our preparedness was not that much big. That's why at present the government has decided to stop a bit to do a review of the legislation to see if it fits to the challenge which we are being put forward. And also the people are not understanding what is happening. Once we discover gas they think that now is time to distribute money. And so I spoke about the need of dialogue, constant dialogue. This time is a dialogue to make people understand what is going on. Where is the gas, in which areas, how the gas will benefit the people? Where is coal, where is iron? How these things are going to benefit the people? What is the relationship between the uplifting of the standard of living of people and the exploitation of of these minerals and this gas? The people must feel free to question. That's why I spoke about inquisitive spirit which is increasing. Now it's up to the government to be open to listen and to give the correct explanation. And not everybody understands the message the same way. So that's why I'm saying it must be constant. So that everybody comes to a consensus of what is going on in the country. About legislation, there are common standards in the region, even here in Sadeg, about how to conduct this business on natural resources. And this is something which has to be discussed at sub-regional level, but also at continental level. So that we see, we as Africans how we see things. The whole technology comes from the north. The whole capital comes from the north. And so we have to see where do we fit. We may not just say all these are our natural resources without having a legislation which may really make the foreigners who come to observe the what we want, what our people want. So this has to be a common thing in Africa because country by country we may have difficulties to negotiate. So all the business people who are here can come, each one of them with a his attraction to the leadership. And we say that this is the best one. And you take that one. He is offer. And you say, okay, and then another one comes and they start fighting. And this happened in my time of a gas when we discovered the gas in the south. Two American companies who were at logs and fortunately both of them were corrupt and they disappeared. And now we have the South Africans who came in and they are coming over. So we need some legislation but also consultation among ourselves. Thank you. So a whole different tenor in the conversation between governments and citizens on the one hand but also a whole different tenor of conversation between the private sector and the recipient governments who are the recipients of foreign direct investment in this context. And governments given the increased transparency social media youth populations who are in any event more demanding in the accountability questions of the governments. How do you see this pan-African level debate? I think it's getting better and better. For a number of reasons people are better connected now and there is more transparency. The sort of leakage of information everywhere we're going to be able to read everybody's emails absolutely. So there is a huge amount of information coming out which is quite healthy and I think I'm going to move forward in this sense. On the other hand there are two evolutions. We have noticed an important evolution in the United States for the first time. An important government like the United States moving to force transparency transparency of contracts for European Union usually too late but this time somehow we managed two weeks ago to bust a pill also to copy and match the American initiative for those who are not aware of this this laws forces all energy companies to declare their contracts because some companies signed very big contracts in some African countries or some other countries which nobody knows how much is it paying for the gas or for the oil and I'm aware that even some countries even the finance minister is not aware and obviously this is a major problem. Of course China say now it is a great friend of ours and we look at China and say well are you going to match Europeans and Americans and show us also some transparency we need to demand that I don't know when they had the Brex meeting here did President Zuma ask them to match this legislation or not you know I don't know I think he should ask was the point of being in the Brex if not ask the Brex to really match the other guys also to match that level of clarity so this our friends abroad helping us to force this level of transparency we need to keep pressure on our own governments to seek more and more transparency and that is happening and I cannot resist just to mention something to President Shesano I am in the board of organization called the National Resource Charter I don't know if you heard about them because this is a bunch of wonderful academics led by Paul Collier of Oxford who produced a wealth of information to help countries exactly like Mozambique who discovered national resources and said what are you going to do now how are you going to go about it I am free of charge just give it to President Gubuza it is very important he needs it Sir from the perspective then of transparency international how does one have this pan-African conversation that brings in the private sector into a whole different discourse on accountability particularly given the sectors in Africa that are booming I think this talk about disclosure we have to be disclosure that you understand because you know transparency is not in any itself it is to permit accountability okay when I started TI Cameroon about ten years ago we did something called budget tracking we took the budget and went to every village and tell them well listen this is what the budget says for your village and suddenly the citizens were awake and they will ask the parliamentarian you know where is the bridge where is this where is that the thing with the information we get now is that do the citizens understand it to be able to make people accountable so I think as much as we put for disclosure and transparency it should be in a form that those who need to use it can use it and make people accountable the trick is to make the demand increase on the side of the citizens look at North Africa and that is it if you don't get to the point where the citizens themselves require and want for change to happen because making their leaders accountable you could supply all this aggregate and complicated figures and stuff and contracts put them online to guys who don't have computers and we will just be chasing our tail we are going more again on emphasizing on complicated stuff disclosure but it should be in a form where those who need to use it can comprehend it when you do that then of course then you can federate Africans in their request as they did with multi-partisan without knowing where they were going so I think it's important to make sure that those who need to use it can use it and this conversation about this is the action between citizens and their governments that requires a whole different mode of interaction in a sense how do you see this debate because when we see the Twitter feed coming through and what I'm looking at on screen here is a significant emphasis on education ensuring that the discourse between government and citizen actually facilitates the kind of deeper dialogue that all of you are hinting at Ian how do you see this from the perspective that you engage these questions in your academic work and other work? I would just underscore what's been said now that transparency is not enough there also needs to be a culture of accountability created I was in a discussion a few weeks ago with Nkosana Moyo from the Mines Foundation the Mandela Institute for Development Studies in which we were discussing this issue of transparency and he made a very sharp observation Moyo made the sharp observation that in many African countries corruption is completely transparent the problem is not transparency at all it's that it's transparency with impunity and so there needs to be a culture of accountability and it changed expectations about uncorrupt behavior and this is why I think the Abraham Prize is so important because it really sets a standard out there and it validates the notion that not being corrupt is a good thing and will be and can be rewarded but beyond that I think I come back to the issues about incentives they're just overwhelmingly important that unless people have incentives to behave well many people will not and so it comes back to the economy and the economic incentives that attach to political power that really have to change indeed Winnie and then you you certainly have emphasized to me both in the interaction we had prior to the session and indeed in your input today the importance of this Pan-African dimension your concern about the race to the bottom do you see a willingness to have the Pan-African conversation about the concerns about the race to the bottom that is a potential risk particularly with respect to the sectors of the economy that are booming yeah we have really to focus at three levels and the Pan-African level is very important the first is about how resources are collected revenue collections is there the big issue that I see is that there is a real race to the bottom that African governments are competing for these few companies that are going to come and invest in extraction and they are under so much pressure and advice from the World Bank and the IMF to create this enabling environment for the private sector in the process really race down to open their economies to attract these companies and they sacrifice labor standards the human rights of people their land rights they sacrifice the fair share of people in the form of taxes by giving tax holidays and so on so there is a need for African countries to agree on common standards that we regulate the extractive industries and in that regard I think ECOWAS is doing better because they are coming up with a mining code that could help to establish the standards that all the countries agree to and they don't continue opening themselves and making themselves vulnerable to the dictates of foreign companies that's one the other area is that when the resources are collected they are allocated for the priorities of the African people the majority here there's a big role for parliaments the allocation of those resources and until we have really independent and powerful parliaments that can oversee these big executive offices we will not get far on the path of allocating appropriately putting money in health, in education and in jobs for our young people so the power of parliament the governance institutions are critical and lastly having strong human rights frameworks that enable citizens to act and force their governments and corporations to act responsibly because without active citizens you can't have responsible governments and without putting people as the drivers with rights and have a human rights based approach a human rights approach not based approach but human rights approach to all these issues of governance we will not get responsibility, accountability and Africa owning its development Thank you very much I'm going to turn it over to all of you I'm sure that you have a number of burning questions for the panel as well I'm also encouraging those of you are sending us Twitter feed again just hashtag wave governance I'd like to just put it to you for questions to the panel please ensure that your questions are as crisp as possible speeches are not necessarily encouraged but I'd like to open it up to the audience for questions if you could please indicate by raise of hands I have a, there are roving microphones there's a question here from the front Mohammad Abujakram global shaper from Egypt my question is about the the effect of election as a real measurement for good governance in a country having the experience of being an Egyptian had went through several elections in the last three or two years and I still see a high level of protection on the national level I can't say that they weren't as fair as expected but they didn't bring to the power those who really needed the change and made the change so this is fair as a second relationship I mean the level of disclosure that we want are we really looking just only for access to information and disclosure of information or a real participatory role for civil society in the sessions that are being taken I mean the government of Egypt after the revolution with the influence of civil society put the budget with scanned copies scanned PDF pictures online ineffective and non-participatory so what is the real role of civil society when it comes to disclosure and participation in decision making process thank you thank you in fact this is an issue what is the role of civil society civil society organizations how do civil society organizations interact from a transparency perspective your Excellency well in what concerns elections it is related with the the alternates I think what is important is to have good legislation on the electoral process because the alternates must be done according to the wishes of the people and this can be attained only if the machinery for electoral process is well established and the legislation is a consensual legislation I know that it has to be discussed again and again to correct some shortcomings of the previous legislation but it is very important to have elections which are reliable which are credible also the institutions sometimes in Mozambique for instance we started without knowing how to create the institutions to run the elections but we are becoming more perfect as new elections occur but the discussion did not stop yet so it is very important to have a good machinery for the electoral process so that you have the people to choose the people whom they want to choose the second thing is that there are people who may think that there are the ones who should be elected they predetermined that there are the ones who should be elected and if they lose they say no the elections were rigged because they didn't win if they win they say all right these elections were good and the result is that they don't deliver and so there are cowards and so on so it is a situation which deserves very much attention a lot of education of the voters they must be very well educated and you don't do this of a sudden in Africa even in the countries which are independent for long time you still need a lot of education so that people understand their rights even the right to go and vote we have to tell the citizens it is your right you go and vote do not know this a lot of education is necessary in what concerns the role of the civil society first of all there is a very difficult discussion about who is the civil society you will find who is the civil society there are some people who do not want to create parties but through the door of civil society they do exactly what political parties do and so you fail to have a good understanding between the power and that civil society a good civil society should create really good trust and be free to bring good discussion with the people and not fight for power but fight to have a correct government a correct leadership in power but some do not do that they behave as if they were political parties in opposition so this creates some clashes and so the dialogue is broken there some actors just NGOs demanding some money to do this some money to do that and not addressing to the real issues there is a discussion about what is the civil society for instance we say civil society should be responsible for conducting the elections and we want a civil society which is neutral which is independent and sometimes you cannot you cannot find it so the participation of the civil society would be an excellent thing if the civil society is independent is neutral and it's constructive Akiri that's a long debate about what civil society is the problem is all the important issues in Africa today are highly political you can't run away from it elections don't work we have human rights issues and all these issues are highly political so I would say civil society you can engage in these issues but not under any banner and so that's a reality in the north the issues are social mostly we are still trying to put together the basic infrastructure for a citizen to be able to express himself and to be able to make his leader accountable so all these issues are highly political if you look at after the 90s most of the leaders that came in were all from civil society from Mali you just go through all these countries it's because the issues that interrogate us in Africa today are highly political if we don't fix it then we'll continue to have civil society which feels at one point I'm going to advocate at another point it feels maybe I can do better if I'm in the ring and that is the ambivalence we have we don't fix the issues as yet and so we're going to have this confusion which the president so clearly describes I can see that there are a number of panelists that want to also speak and go back to the audience so when Ikele raised her hand about civil society you see increasingly we are finding that our countries are growing growth is increasing all the time they are moving from low income to middle income status but they are leaving the majority of the people behind the poverty is not declining as fast as the growth is rising so we find in civil society that increasingly many organizations are moving away from being in service delivery and concentrating on influencing because the resources are there the growth is happening but inequality is widening so they are focusing on asking governments asking corporations to do the right thing to fight poverty so as civil society organizations move towards more influencing then this also strikes fear in the governments and we find civil society space now closing more laws to regulate to control to actually render voiceless civil society to squeeze them because they are focused on speaking more than delivering service on the ground this is an issue here in Africa and what we are saying is that no let the people speak let the people speak, let them drive their development and influencing is not the same Mr. President I want to differ a little here when civil society is influencing it is not directly seeking to make power but to make power do the right thing for the people there is a difference so I have another two actually I have three hands and I will take them in that order if I may one, two and then three and I think that may bring us close to yes please just looking for the roving microphone excuse me when we talk about good governance a lot of times we talk about corruption and which is endemic and destroys economies because it attracts very bad investors and very good investors would shy away but we always talk about it from the standpoint of the person accepting the corruption what do we do, how do we hold accountable those organizations companies and those individuals who engage in corruption and who give the money to distort the system and indeed what innovations do we see what innovations do we see in terms of really focusing on the private sector in the governance debate Mo? well what we see actually is increasing prosecution especially in the United States I think the only government I notice which taking the foreign corruption act or anti-corruption act a little bit seriously is the United States for all its faults I think US is doing something useful here Europe I mean I notice OCD for example is a very strong report early this year questioning France commitment to fighting corruption noting that they never tried anybody was the point of basing anti-corruption laws when you are not really using them and this problem is not only in France in many European countries I made remark the other day that I was in the European Union and talking to some and the United States actually finds a lot of European companies for corruption in Africa much more than European countries find or banish European companies for corruption and I asked our friends in the commission I mean Europe has serious financial problems United States last time they find European companies $700 million I said why don't European guys find your own companies and make use of this money to block your finance gap why did the Americans take this money from Europe so we have a very in my view insufficient commitment really to fight corruption and I was so I mean with the last election when he stood up and said actually you know bribery is good it means jobs for our boys this is a serious candidate to be a prime minister of a very respectable European country standing up and saying that in public so that's unfortunately the situation as far as the private sector is concerned this issue about corporate governance which is I think is very in a very bad shape really to focus on that area so not only focusing on governments but very clearly focusing on the toolkit that can also be used to ensure that on the private sector side we really bring the private sector into the discourse much more aggressively I had another hand in front here if I can have the microphone actually I've been waiting with the mic for a while so can I ask a question I actually just and then your turn please thank you very much I'm a global shaper from the Rabat Hub and I work at the Rabat School of Governance and Economics before asking my question I want just to I'm really at one word that we use so much now it's good governance I think it really is a bad word it's like when we say a good citizen we should have one citizen we should have one governance there is no bad or good governance and my question is related to one of the top priorities that we've been discussed here in the World Economic Forum in Africa it is education taking into account that higher education is already an elitist in our country in South Africa only 28% of the population have in Morocco it's only 14% so to what extent can we include education in educating the next generation about governance at the primary level especially that it can help so what can my question is what has been done to answer this question and if not what can be done thank you indeed again a lot of the tweets coming through as well emphasising education emphasising the right to vote thank you I think that really the active citizenship is learnt not necessarily through the formal system only the formal school system yes but I think people learn to be active citizens starting from their families where they are given a chance to voice to be part of family decision making to take responsibility and do some things be required to do some work and then in the community and then in the formal school system so really building the culture of democracy is a societal thing yes you can build it in the school curriculum but you can also build it through the way we are socialised in the family in the community and I think in Africa because somehow many of our cultures have these this education is actually there already but needs to be enhanced needs to be affirmed you find it there in the culture but I wanted to also add that we believe in the power of people in civil society and the corporate sector they really spawned when you use the power of people recently a talks from we had a campaign we called behind the brands campaign and we wanted to make the corporate sector responsible we picked the 10 big food companies we scored them just like Moibra him here scores we scored them against 7 indicators and put out the record then we targeted those which make chocolate and we said to them take care of women cocoa farmers in your food chains and you know what Nestle, Mars Mondoles have now responded and agreed to give better wages to the women cocoa farmers to improve their working conditions and to be champions for gender equality in the food chains but how did we do it we appealed to their consumers the people who enjoy a chocolate bar the women who buy it for their kids and so the companies came on board and they are doing what they must do so people power so very innovative ways as well to hold the private sector accountable I had another hand here in front please so I'm with a company called HCL Technologies I have a question for Dr. Ibrahim so through this entire discussion that I kept hearing was the underlying need for transparency along with the Pan-Africa discussion discourse with inclusive growth, human development built and so on and so forth and something that just struck me which sort of fits the bill on all those parameters is a digital economy so question for you Dr. Ibrahim is there a possibility of a digitization initiative that is rolled out from anywhere which is the Pan-Africa initiative which sets rules, conditions for participation amongst the various countries that constitute the continent I'm sorry maybe it is late in the day I would say I don't understand what you mean by digital what I mean is so if you take the power of cloud computing mobility basically the extension of the telco process and you are able to therefore start doing business encourage entrepreneurship financial systems disclosure etc etc over the web as expressed through mobile devices computers so on and so forth could that be an initiative that could be run Pan-Africa is the question I think it's already happening I mean when you talk about how all the social media all this tweeting all that is already taking place and what are we waiting for it is happening the young African people now are better connected that much far better connected than our generation people need to understand when I was your age my country had one used paper published by the government who had one TV station one radio station run by the government all what we see in our TV station all we had for lunch and what you saw before you go to sleep that's all to buy a photocopier you need to get permission from the police that's true so people need to understand there is a real revolution in technology which enable people now to communicate directly without the need of intermediate or the real role, the government playing role of a policeman it takes very shape which is iCloud whatever it is technology is an enabler really for transparency for communication for people to organize I mean this gentleman from Egypt they can see how technology helped really the revolution of the story later on they understand you are dissatisfied with that and just one word here democracy cannot be lived over one night and this issue about financing political parties a lot of issues there which I can talk to you outside about it yes you are right but it's there thank you very much ladies and gentlemen I am mindful of the time but I do see a very very eager question to my right which I am going to with your indulgence before we summarize the biggest problem I see in terms of corporate governance is the transparency the resources of Africa have been planted by people taking money outside Africa stash it into safe havens in Europe my question to transparency international why are you not doing something so that we all know that money which was illegally taken out of Africa stashed somewhere in Europe how much is it why should it not come back to the countries where it was ill-gotten because if we don't do that and we talk about corporate governance it's a complete waste of time when we have not owned up we think the money that was taken out of Africa is more than what is needed by way of development of financing for these countries in Africa we need to get it up front thank you Akere well you know I am actually heading a group of people who just say what you are saying and the lady up front who spoke about corruption really hit the nail on the head about this course today I am a lawyer by training and I keep asking myself why is it that when a kleptocrat or a political leader goes to Europe like he is corrupt and then the handler of the corrupt goods nothing is said about him and we have to get to a point who realize that the guy who holds the money is equally as guilty as the guy who put the money there better still we are moving towards a situation in the Pan-African Lawyers Union we are going to ask that when the proceedings are going on there is no moral reason for the frozen money to be the hands of the person who was an accomplice so you don't have nine million dollars belonging to booboo, to whoever sitting in the very bank that was an accomplice you should go to the African Development Bank as an interim or trustee to hold this money there is no reason why we say it over and over again and the guys who cooperate and entice people to bring the money to keep it in their banks then the money is frozen in their banks and we talk about the person who brought it there but the guy who is keeping the money using it to speculate and nothing is said about him I think that's where the discourse must go I think you've just had a very categorical reply that you certainly have and I would like to just touch on a number of the issues that I think have really emerged very strongly from the panel there is clearly a whole new nature of the discourse between governments and their citizens in terms of the demand for transparency the demand for particularly enhanced conversation about how the unlocking of resources on our continent will benefit a very youthful population I think certainly what has emerged very very strongly is that the innovations around the role of the private sector are as important as debates on governance in terms of leaders who are in the public sector so I think that you certainly have had a wealth of input from a highly esteemed panel all of whom in their daily lives take the governance issues very very seriously in how they institutionalize some of these very innovations Moe and others in terms of transparency international we look to not only you to continue the innovations but also in our own hands to participate in the innovations that will shape our continent in the governance debate as we stand at the cusp of opportunity and I'd like to thank my entire panel for their wonderful contributions and I'd also like to thank those of you who tweeted for your tweets and certainly for all of you for your participation thank you very much ladies and gentlemen thank you panelists