 A new Electoral Act amendment bill will, with recommendations such as barring of electronic transmission of roles, is to be introduced at the Senate soon. And gunmen have changed tactics, the attack to hospital in Kaduna and abducted nurses, babies, even security guards. Well, this is plus politics and I am Mary Ann McCormick. A new Electoral Act amendment bill, which provides a total ban of electronic transmission of votes, is to be introduced at the Senate next Tuesday. The provision forms part of the 121-page document to be laid before the upper legislative chamber at Plenary by the Senate Committee Chairman on Independent National Electoral Commission INEC, Senator Cabr Gaya. The bill also proposes allowed expenses for presidential candidates and the allowance of an independent candidate. Well, joining us to discuss this is the Executive Director of Electoral College in Nigeria, Kunle Lawa, and legal practitioner Chris Itamonola. Thank you very much for joining us, Kunle. Thank you very much. I'm going to start with you before we go to Mr Itamonola for the legal angle to this. I mean, I think what enrages people the most is the fact that most of the things that were pushed for, in fact, the reason why people were waiting for this particular amendment to be done was because of some of the things like the e-voting, e-transmission of votes, and of course, you know, reduction of campaign expenditure. But these things seem to have found their way, you know, out of the amendment. And people are wondering what would, what's the essence of this amendment if the major things that we're pushing for are not really done. But let me, let me start from the beginning. Let's break it down because it's a big thing. Let's look at the fact that the Senate has decided to depart from the, because there was a document that was agreed upon by both committees, but now it seems like they have decided to jettison that document and come up with a fresh one, which means that there will be a showdown come Tuesday. Why do you think that there was a departure all of a sudden from the agreement that was done in the first place? Because if you look at it critically, we must say the way the Nigerian National Assembly looks at it, the political elite has a need to protect itself and its existence. The truth is there's a higher agitation for democracy or proper democracy and good governance right now by the Nigerian people. And they know that first things first, if this is allowed to happen, most of them will now return to their seats. So it's more like, how I don't know, protecting your own skin. Let's look at the increase in campaign funding. You're tilting one billion Naira, which is to be the limit on campaign funding. And let's also mention, nobody is picked to actually face this matter. That's dictate campaign spending, whether I net the police. So everybody lacks jurisdiction. They still remain with a vague who lacks, who has jurisdiction in dealing with this. And then they push up presidency to 15 billion Naira. Well, this indirectly translates that campaign forms, which is to cost about 45 million, which we thought was outrageous, will cost over 100 million in 2023. And that is a serious problem. I think 50 section 50, subsection two is also prohibiting the transmission of anything electronically, which means this National Assembly is about to send us back into the Stone Age. It's incredible that we expect that these people are representing us and they would listen to, because I know that there were recommendations made by Nigerians, and these recommendations were taken to these representatives and senators, but it looks like the people, the Nigerian people's voices are not being heard in all of this. And again, that's why I started by saying, it looks like we put so much faith in these people, but then they keep letting us down. So if these people are representatives and they're not representing what we believe in, where do we go from here? In a natural democracy, what usually happens when you have this quagmire between the people who are choosing the National Assembly to be the house they take as their own, and then the people they're supposed to be representing were supposed to initiate a recall. But this has not happened in Nigeria, mainly because people are afraid, not because people can't do it. And if you look at protests which had across different zones in Nigeria over the last one year, the people that come out are enough to even take out one person, maybe for example, the Lagos State House of Assembly or a senator or a House of Rep. But they've never thought to organize those... How educated do you think people are in that regard? Because we talk about recalls all the time. We're saying, oh, you know, we should have a recall. We have a right to a recall. How many people really know that they have that right? And how many people really are willing to follow through? The average person is hungry. The average person is unable to buy eggs right now. So why should they be worried about a recall? The truth is that it's very political education or political literacy which we have, which is massive within Nigeria and it's not about how educated you are, it's understanding how the system works, is the greatest limitation. Because the truth is, the only reason you do not have eggs is because you are not represented properly. And because we've not been able to cross that boundary, we think it's better to go and look for eggs. But the truth is, you don't need to go and look for eggs. Why don't you attack the problem from the top? And we've never done that. And that's the situation we find ourselves. I will come back to you because voter education is very important, whether it's informal or formal, we need to talk about it. But Baristai Tamil Nadu, I'm coming to you for some legal perspective to this. Now, the Senate is getting ready to complete plans to clear Ms. Lorese Alnouchi as INEC boss. But of course, we also know that there are people who have kicked against this idea. And with all of this hula-baloo and the broglio as concerning the amendment of this bill, the pushback is seemingly a bit more. Why do you think that the Senate has decided, or the National Assembly has decided to take this stand and kick out the most important things that the people is pushed for in this new amendment? Now, it's very pathetic to understand that the current Senate has an opportunity to make a name for itself, indelibly, but is unfortunately, mysteriously align itself to be controlled by the presidency. Nigerians have cried, clamored for this amendment to be addressed in such a manner that at the end of the day, the implication of it will have been electronic devices. For example, currently, the Nigerian Bar Association flawlessly undertakes its elections. Of course, there are challenges not to stand in, but we sit in our houses, we sit in our offices and we conduct elections free and fair to a certain degree, devoid of, you are picking the boxes, you are doing this, you are doing that. Now, those material sections that will have added that is what Senate is now automatically removing, preventing, precluding that one. Then the second aspect of it. That's the table that I used to there. Oh dear, I think we lost that connection, but we will try to get him back on the phone. Let me come back to you. Let's talk about issues of financial independence for INEC, new timelines for submission of lists for candidates we hear. All of these things have now been rejected by this National Assembly. What does this pretend for the electoral process going forward? Because I'm thinking off the top of my head that the reason why we were all protesting and pushing was because we thought this document was going to change the way our electioneering process went all the way down to policing it, all the way down to counting, transmission of these results, but it has nothing in it that we can really hold on to. I'm trying to understand what's going on in the head of the National Assembly members. Maybe you can help me. We must first understand this critical thing. The National Assembly is not PDP, neither is it APC. The National Assembly is the National Assembly. There's one to a constitution. And these are people who have chosen to just solidify their grip on power. There's no other reason why, number one, we can reject e-voting. Because to be clear, we're a country of 200 million. Nigeria spends close to $100 million on elections alone. That is outrageous for a country that claims it doesn't have money. And we want to continue business as usual. This is not only a problem, but it would affect us in the long run. Nigeria basically has to stand up and say, this bill will not pass. And they're feeding it behind, oh, this is an electoral bill. We're passing a bill because people are talking about it. But what is contained in that bill? Let's also state that even within voter fraud, which they mentioned in this electoral bill, which they want to put forward, they clearly do not state, yeah, the state finds an imprisonment. But anybody who commits these crimes would of course bring his lawyer to court, and his lawyer will say no law enforcement, no law enforcement agency directly has jurisdiction. Because they didn't state who's jurisdiction it was, whether it was INEC or whatever. So there's a lot of ambiguity, that's what you're saying. Yes, it's basically vague, and you can dilly-dally around almost everything. So if I get you clearly, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that these loopholes have been deliberately created because these politicians want to be able to manoeuvre when the time comes. Yes, and what do we expect? The people who are tempted to correct the electoral bill or the electoral act, are people who are not even conversant with the Nigerian electoral system, its process and the constitution in general. I'm curious, you obviously represent the electoral college and you are a group of people who are educating people on the electoral process. You may not necessarily be civil society, but you fall in that category. Now that we're faced with this, how do Nigerians stand up? Because yes, we stood up and kept pressing on Mr. President before the last election to sign that bill. Well, we're here again amending that same bill, but this time around, it's not in our favour. How do we get to impress upon the members of the National Assembly? Not just because Mr. President's deal is just to extend to the bill, but what about our... Let me start by saying, how many of us know the members that are representing us? Do we know the constituency offices? Do we know how to write petitions? Do we know how to write letters? How do we... Where do we start? Because in six months, campaign season will be upon us. And if this bill is accented to by Mr. President, then that's it. The truth is, Nigeria must first learn and accept their politically illiterate. The second thing is, you cannot change a country in the short run. It has to be a long game. We've only agitated for things that were short game, short plans, short targeted. And I don't believe anybody in the National Assembly has been made an example of doing nothing, for doing nothing. So we have constituency offices that are totally empty, and I'm sure if you check most constituency offices, they are empty. And those that have people in do not have the representatives in. So we are a country that created representatives who live in the capital city while they are foremost, farthest away from the people they are actually representing. And that's our government. Barca, tell me, Nola, I know that you are back on the phone line. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Perfect. So you were telling us before the connection was lost that the Senate is controlled by the presidency. And I wanted to ask that question while you were still talking. The Senate is made up of the APC and the PDP. It cannot necessarily, for the purpose of argument, be controlled by the president. The president, yes, is the president of Nigeria, but the president also is a leader of the APC in the country. He cannot necessarily be controlling these members of the National Assembly, can he? And of course, these members are supposedly representatives of their people, not representatives of Mr. President. So I'd like to fault that comment of yours. False and promise. You have an APC that is a majority in the Senate. Number one, number two, you have a leadership of the Senate that is definitely appointed with the influence of the presidency. In a normal Nigerian, in a normal Nigerian session, where issues go on, normally, that type of influence should not be. But unfortunately, where public interest, where public interest is number one, such influence will not be. But where party interest prevails, definitely it will be. Now, having said that, the important things are stated in. The Senate, the current Senate is losing a very valuable opportunity to making a name for itself in terms of ensuring that it takes the button away from Nigerians going through the hardship, the rank of, the challenge of a ballot box is rigging on the rest of that. And I gave a simple example. The MVA, my general association for the past five years now, are substituted in terms of its leadership through an electronic voting, and that is the solution. Unfortunately, I'm having a network challenge, so it's a big challenge, but the only opportunity to enable Nigerians to enjoy an electoral process devoid of rank, or devoid of rigging is what the Senate definitely is preventing right now. With the way that our national assembly has been operating over the years, and with some of the bills that they've passed, with some of the decisions that they've made over time, and I mean, I'm talking about including the Twitter ban, the social media bill, and all of the things that they've continuously pushed. Do you see Nigerians one way or the other winning by putting pressure on them to change this bill? Do you see Nigerians changing the minds of these members of our national assembly, or is it just going to be business as usual, and this bill will be accented to by Mr. President? Well, unfortunately, it's going to be business as usual, and the ground is very simple. We have a very hostile Nigerian society that is not willing to die when they arrive. I mean, the sections of the constitution are very apt in terms of, I mean, for decisions to be, how many of these senators, how many of these senators are taking a decision, first and foremost, with difference to their own consequence, going back at least to a party with them and coming back to taking a decision. The answer definitely is negative, and for as long as we have a Nigerian society unfortunately, if you are willing to take in those steps, you recall the Laki saga, you recall the Abu Dhabi Showa saga and the rest of that. As soon as a few people decide that this is what the inspector should be, the government is going to put a counter group to be able to. So in the truest sense of the word, very frankly and pathetically, the government of the day is not willing to align democracy to a tribe. We are accepting that being, definitely, we are definitely not going to get there in 2023. You seem to be playing, you seem to be a prophet of doom, but Kulley seems to disagree with you. I saw him shaking his head vehemently. Kulley, what are your thoughts? Because if you look at it, you cannot see the presidency controls the National Assembly. National Assembly is actually the strongest realm of government that's on paper as it's supposed to be. And like a statement I went forward to earlier, he said the president, I think while talking, he said the president appoints the, or has influence over the Senate. Yes, the party could have influence, but I think we should stop blaming the party at this point. Because if you look at Nigeria's history, Obasanjo and Chuba Okadibo at that time were in the same party and we all know the showdown that went down with the two of them. So it's not a party issue. I think we should look at this holistically. This is the political class versus us. Let's not try to play any party lines. These are not party lines. Because if this gets won, this bill passes. It will be passed by PDP and EPC senators. It will be passed by PDP and EPC government. It will, there's no, the seats in Nigeria and we need to learn this fundamentally. The seats in Nigeria, they are sworn to the constitution. The political party is only a vehicle to the seat. The seat belongs to the Nigerian people and the Federal Republic of Nigeria and the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. So, I mean, Varsal Tamino, that seems to be saying almost the same thing as you, although you disagree that, you know, to a certain extent. But most of you seem to say that these people at the end of the day don't care about TOS. Because this is one way or the other going to affect whether they return to those offices or not. So whether they go to other offices because most of them have been there twice. Some of them are governors who became senators. So they're looking at the future and their other positions that they would want to run for. And this is why they've decided to take this decision. But back to you, Varsal Tamino, let's look at some other innovations that they've introduced. I mean, these are sudden positives, even though they're just a few of them. But one of the most important is the fact that now we can have independent candidates. You don't necessarily have to become a member of a political party to run. Isn't that a good innovation, even though we have more problems, but isn't that something that we should rejoice over? I mean, independent candidates need, is there courage, even internationally, you have them. But how far will they be able to go without the party? I mean, I want that standing. I mean, when- But that's the idea. Isn't that the idea of an independent candidate so you don't need a party if you're good enough and the people think that you're the right candidate, they should be able to band behind you and not necessarily going through the hopes of party primaries and all of those things. That is the objective, but how far will the independent candidate go? Because as far as our national and political concerns, and to an extent, even internationally, I mean, in America, in Europe and what you are, you have the Republicans, you have the Democrats and whatever, and in number of times where we vote, unfortunately, very pathetically, we are not voting based on the individual. We are voting based on the party. We are voting based on money. We are voting based on, what do you call it? Unfortunately, you want to talk about agenda. Agenda of the political party. So to what extent will that individual be able to express his own ideology over and against legislation, because once it is done, to that extent, we must command, we should appreciate the fact that, well, to that extent, we are taking one step in the right direction. And this will become a... I want to quickly disagree with you again, and I'm coming to you, Kuli. Maybe that's the same point you want to make. Many people have complained about the fact that parties, political parties, especially the big ones in Nigeria, stifle the choices of the people. It's because many pundits have said that the reason why we have the kind of leaders that we have is because the parties decide whoever they want, and then they force them, so you don't have a choice but to vote for these candidates. But when you have an independent candidate, you have a pool of choices. Now, you can decide if you want this person, even though the party doesn't deem him fit, because this is what happens. For me, looking at independent candidacy, I think when most people talk about it, they talk about it from the presidential point of view. Yes, Nigeria has over 170,000... I think the quality generally, people always stop from the top. But the truth is, if you look at independent candidacy, let's say a local government level, let's say a chairman of Etius or something, this is a very, very good development and can help really get the right people into the game. I look at it very good for state houses of assembly, Senate and House of Rep. Let's not talk governors and presidents yet, because we need to create a president. If we're able to get in local positions or lower positions of people with political power into their independent candidacy, we might just be able to deliver a president that's an independent candidate down the road. No, but that will be down the road. But people first have to see it grow. Like now, I can just say, okay, I want to be chairman of my local government and I'll just register with INEC. And I can pull that because it's within my community and if my people really agree with me, I don't need to subject myself to a party, a set of party delegates that are asking for Ghana must go. So quickly, wrapping up, because we're out of time, by the time, last words, because this is happening next week, Tuesday, we hear that there might be a showdown because there are certain people still in the National Assembly who disagree with the chain because there was an agreement before now and then overnight, there was a change in that document. With our fingers crossed, what should we hope for for Tuesday? I think at the last part. What should we hope for coming Tuesday, Tuesday next week, the day that the National Assembly decides on that particular document? I expect minority to rise and challenge the challengeable. I expect even the APC administration in the National Assembly, that have good conscience on behalf of the people to also rise because ultimately, if they fail to do what they are expected to do, even they themselves will be victims of their quietness. So come Tuesday, if you look at, I hope that whether PDP or APC, they will all stand at least on the common front in the interest of Nigeria. But will that be, I do not see that coming. And Kunle, you represent the conscience of the people. What message would you be sending to every Nigerian who's watching, including those who didn't even realize that they had a say in this? Well, I think before Tuesday, they can make the move for the National Assembly. And the truth is, I think people should start calling their house, their representatives immediately. Don't restrict it to emails where they will choose not to respond. Call them if you have people that have access to their numbers, get in touch with them. They are supposed to represent you. They are supposed to pick your calls. They don't choose the calls they have. We pay them. I think we should push this. So if they don't pick the calls, barrage them with text messages? No. Everybody should, then I think we should start making a move to actually recall one of them. I think that's the example they would understand. How about showing up to the National Assembly? They don't take that. They will guard themselves with police. Well, Kunle, Lawa, Chris and Tabunala, thank you very much for being part of the conversation. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's unfortunate about the challenges of the network. I've always been here at any time. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break and when we return, gunmen strike again. This time, the Stormer Hospital and the school. We'll be right back.