 Good evening everyone. I'm Karen McCarty. I'm the Director of Curatorial here at Cooper Hewitt and I'm delighted to Welcome all of you here this evening This is the last of the programs organized in conjunction with the exhibition scraps fashion textiles and creative reuse and as a Testament to the popularity of textiles all of the programs have been sold out and the exhibition has been immensely popular in In addition to all the beautiful works in the exhibition and the ingenious innovations as well as genuine sense of humanity Exuded by all three of the exhibitions designer entrepreneurs the exhibition offered several revelations For me the most shocking was that the set that second only to oil Textile and apparel manufacturing is the most polluting industry in the world It just doesn't seem to make sense The exhibition can be an inspiring call to action. I assume you have all seen it But if not it closes April 23rd On behalf of Cooper Hewitt I want to extend a special thank you to Eileen Fisher Who very generously and enthusiastically supported scraps and the accompanying public programming? Among Eileen's various initiatives Eileen Fisher is continually thinking about the role of a company differently and empowering women Such as the recent partnering with girls who code. Maybe we'll hear a little bit more about that In the discussion Tonight's event Closing the cycle sustainable fashion with Eileen Fisher and Patagonia is an up-close discussion with two fashion leaders whose pioneering companies are at the forefront of the industry's sustainability movement Eileen Fisher who founded her namesake company in 1984 and Nelly Cohen Patagonia's worn wear program manager will talk about how their organizations have innovated the use reuse of textiles in the production and trend Production process and transformed closed cycle design into a profitable business profitable business model Before the discussions began. I want to suggest we do something called turn and talk It's something that we occasionally do with our educators and it's an icebreaker moment It'll just take a couple minutes but it's a really nice way to Get to know new people meet new people. So if you would just spend a couple minutes Turning to the person next to you or behind you someone you do not know and just say hello and ask why Why? What you are hoping to get out of this evening's program. It might be a fun little exercise Okay Judging from my vantage point Judging from my vantage point it must say that did not take long at all Sounds like you've all known each other. I haven't seen each other for a long time, but thank you And now I'd like to proceed I'd like to invite to the podium Susan Brown curator of textiles here at Cooper Hewitt and co-curator of the exhibition Scraps with her colleague Matilda McQuade Susan will introduce tonight's speakers and moderate tonight's conversation Thank you Good evening. We are so lucky to be here this evening in conversation with Eileen Fisher and Nellie Cohen of Patagonia In fact, there are 170 people on the waiting list for this program So if you have a chair in the room, you are very lucky indeed But that just shows how eager people are to have this conversation and to engage around the subject of Waste in the fashion and textile industry So in the scraps exhibition, we addressed pre-consumer waste That's all the waste that's generated in fiber production textile production and apparel manufacturing Before clothing ever reaches the stores But tonight we're going to talk about what happens when a company decides to take responsibility for their clothes After they leave the store even if they left the store 30 years ago Patagonia has done this through a commitment to helping their customers care for and repair Their clothes so that they can keep them as long as possible Eileen Fisher is taking back their clothes and giving them a second life through reuse or remaking them into new products So I'll introduce Nellie and Eileen each one of them will give a short presentation And then we'll have a discussion and at the end there'll be an opportunity for questions from the audience Nellie Cohen has been working in Patagonia's environmental department for seven years With a degree in oceanography and a background in statistics Nellie focuses on the environmental Responsibility of products Quantifying and analyzing the impacts of the company's products through their life cycle She's the manager of Warnware which aims to reduce the environmental impact of Patagonia clothing By helping people extend the life of their garments through repair reuse and responsible recycling She also teaches in the environmental studies department at the University of California, Santa Barbara Eileen Fisher created her first collection in 1984 with $350 and today the company has 1200 employees and 60 freestanding stores Eileen became concerned with sustainability early on and hired her first director of social consciousness 20 years ago this year But in 2015 she really put a line in the sand with the vision 2020 statement Which makes a pledge to transparency and lays out a five-year plan for achieving Sustainability in the areas of materials color water carbon and conscious business practices So please welcome Nellie Cohen Wonderful. Thank you so much for having all of us here. It's it's a it's quite an honor to be up here Patagonia has always been a huge fan of Eileen Fisher. So we're always excited to be on the stage together For those of you in the audience who might not be familiar with Patagonia We're a privately held company located in Ventura, California about two hours north of LA in a pretty funky beach town we were founded in 1973 by Vaughan Shenard and We originally were hard goods company. We forged iron climbing equipment in a blacksmith shop before we got into clothing and This is our mission statement you can read it yourself there But I think I always like to start every presentation with it because I know most companies have a mission statement But the degree to which this truly is our guiding principle at Patagonia. I feel is unique and carries throughout decision-making from Weekly meetings to higher level Strategic decisions at Patagonia Today we are a global company. We sell clothing whole surf line of wetsuits surfboards fishing line with ten car rods and we also have a food line called Patagonia provisions So along the way We've carried a tradition of Sort of being an accidental business but doing right by the environment at the same time and This is just a brief timeline of some of those decisions that we've made along the way to give you a little background about What we've done so initially when we were climbing company we Why shouldn't we but Vaughan and his friends were making gear for each other and In doing that they realized that the type of gear they were making was actually scarring the rocks and Essentially overnight he decided that that wasn't an acceptable way to have business and Switched to an idea and a concept called clean climbing where you could use removable hardware that would leave No trace at all on the rocks Second time we did that was in the early 90s when we realized After employees in our Boston store became sick due to the off-gassing of formaldehyde from our cotton products that we needed to switch to organic cotton and Although that process was not overnight. It was a full-fledged effort So along the way we've decided to do things that might have seemed outlandish or off the beaten path of business But it's it's always worked out well a couple more recent examples of that in 2013 we figured out with a partnership with a company called you Lex how to make a neoprene free wetsuit using a plant called why you leave it requires basically no water pesticide use and After launching that product line. We also Gave away the information to any other person in the surf company in the surf industry who wanted to also make a you Lex wetsuit So those are just some of the environmental efforts that we've made along the way But with all that What we've learned through our research is that we can do a lot of things, right? the product life cycle and even employing best practices along the way from this production of fiber choice to You know tell our customers how to launder things properly and eventually to recycling them But ultimately it's this idea of life extension where we see the greatest potential for the reduction In environmental impacts and this is some research out of the UK from a group called rap Showing that actually over nine nine use nine months of extended use You can reduce the carbon water and waste footprints of a garment by 20 to 30 percent each which is significantly Higher than anything else you can do along that product life cycle Which brings me to what? my what my work within this company, which is Warnware and What we're trying to do with Warnware is build on the premise of yeah, we've built these great garments We've done our best to reduce the necessary harm required to make them But ultimately when we put them out into the world This has to be a shared responsibility between Patagonia and its customers to take mutual responsibility for the stuff that we're making and they're purchasing So through Warnware, it's really an educational program around repairing Reusing and eventually when all else left out Recycling products at the end of their useful life and the way we're trying to talk about that is to raise a generation and and Maybe a society if you will of owners of products as opposed to consumers of products an owner being a person who can take full responsibility for the stuff that they purchase through fixing and proper care and repair and a Consumer being a person who maybe purchases blindly uses it and tosses it without any consciousness And I just wanted to share a little background of how we got here because it's a long story and I think This will tell it more quickly So that's what we've been up to for the last ten years got it all But really so we did start with this idea of recycling and what we found out a couple things first We didn't get a lot of stuff back or stuff lasts way too long and Secondly, it's along the lines of it lasting too long is it's really hard to recycle in fact most of our stuff There isn't really a formal recycling stream for it So we decided there's a lot of other stuff that should be happening before it's time to recycle and Today our recycling program primarily looks like an upcycling program So this is a picture of my friend Grace wearing a scarf made out of actually products like the one I'm wearing today a down Jacket and it's sewn By Natalie Chanin's team of women's sewers through Alabama Chanin in a great partnership that way. Yeah small world So the first thing we want to do say if it's broke fix it And help reclaim this act of repair That seems to be sort of slowly vanishing It's so clothing to become almost an entertainment option as opposed to an investment So it's so easy to just throw something away when we could be fixing it and Let's just start this a little bit here So this is some footage from our worn wear tour that was mentioned in the video We traveled the country now repairing gear for people for free any brand So, you know tours are wonderful, but to be honest, they're not necessarily a scalable change That we can create, you know, I can throw some metrics up there But at the end of the day we're one vehicle and six people traveling around the country a few months out of the year And we have attracted quite a few people I think we've had, you know, seven well we're actually on the road as we speak right now visiting colleges So, you know, we might have touched a hundred thousand people which hopefully has a ripple effect but we feel like it's time for us to Take it to the next level and try to do something truly scalable within the circular economy concept and So that's when we come into our next worn wear mantra if you will which is better than new and So as the video mentioned earlier, we're going to be Launching a program very similar and inspired in a lot of ways by Fisher found Eileen Fisher's program To take back clothing from our customers clean it and resell it We're doing this through a partnership our back-end partner Is a company called Yurtle that we made an investment with through our in-house venture capitalist fund tinshed ventures in 2014 so we've been thinking about it for a little while and we're really excited to be executing in a few weeks on this a little glimpse into what it will look like so, you know, why why do this and and take this next step and is it going to cannibalize Our current customer base and there's so many questions that come up I think we'll talk about this a little bit and the discussion I won't get won't get here but we see a lot of value in taking an aspirational brand like Patagonia and Creating an opportunity to let people into our brand that otherwise couldn't afford it Which is wonderful to a marketing team But to a sustainability team what that also means is that you're displacing the sale of a lesser made lesser quality less responsibly made garment and replacing it with an item that was made, you know It's the best of our ability at that time And keeping it in use so there's not any more damage incurred from the environment Basically to put it back out there again And then in turn we also are creating an even higher Statement around the quality of our garments by saying that there's a guaranteed buyback price for every piece of Patagonia That you make pending its condition Which I think is is really A change to a traditional business model of Putting stuff out there and forgetting about it to actually think about how that will come back into Into our hands and how we can continue to retain the highest level of value of those items And then just in the last few minutes here I think one of the things that excites me the most about one where some of the changes that I see Happying internally and how we in various Places when the in the company I'm starting to see some influences that worn wears created within our own teams and This is sort of a pet project that I want to share with you guys You've probably if you've ever heard of Patagonia or seen Patagonia You know there's a few products that are very iconic to the brand and one of those is called the snap tea pullover I think we've been making it for 25 or 30 years and this is the silhouette that you see here in it But what's unique about this colorway up here is that this is uh, these are all colored Through a consolidation process of pulling in leftover fabric across our line. So men's women's kids baby prints Into one factory and then remade using this iconic silhouette So we know people will like it which is always good when you're piloting a program But it's mixed up it's it's using what we have left And these are just launching this week on our college tour And when somebody buys it They actually get to pick out the snaps that they put on it So every piece becomes unique and personalized just trying to help to build that relationship to the stuff that we are purchasing And I mean if we just go a little bit more broad I think I touched on this earlier But you know Warmer really is out to try to create the society Of product owners, you know, not consumers the the global peril market is worth three billion dollars I think three trillion dollars. Excuse me three trillion whole order of magnitude Off there three trillion dollars um But you know a large percentage of that business is run by this idea of fast fashion Which again, I'll say it. I just um, I don't know where fashion became an idea of entertainment where a shirt costs less than You know a coffee at Starbucks And uh, you know our homes are exploding with things and I don't think any of us are really that much Happier for the situation that we live in So we're just trying to highlight the opportunity to invest in something of quality and keep it in use longer and focus on the stories and experiences that you have in those things And uh, this is one of my my favorite quotes um From the pope actually and I think Reusing stuff becomes this This way of honoring the fact that there's a lot of us on this earth And we can actually Create space for all of us to live happily And with equal opportunity to the resources that we all need But it's going to take you know a nod from those of us consuming the most of them to think a little bit more Thoughtfully about how we do that and uh The last quote I have is uh From evan and I'll I'll read it and I think it sums up what we're trying to do Is that We want to reach an economy that doesn't rely on its state fuel consumerism as its engine An economy with less duplication of consumer goods Less throw away and close your eyes and we don't know exactly how we'll play out But we do know that it's time for all corporations to think about it and act Thank you nally. Um, thank you It's it's an honor um to be here at the museum We're proud to support your Exhibit here at the scraps exhibit As nally said, we've we've been involved in a lot of projects and inspired each other and uh, so I think that's a really important thing in the in the fashion industry Which isn't known for doing that kind of thing we tend to keep our secrets But in this area, it's really important to share um, so anyway, um uh I started the company um and in 1984 and um Uh at that point I was really just trying to solve a problem and um, I I I couldn't find clothes I liked Um, I always wanted to take the stuff. I wanted them simpler And I didn't like to throw clothes away. I wanted things to last And I went to japan and I saw the kimono And I was very inspired by the shape and the fact that people were only that shape for a thousand years In japan and I didn't I wanted to understand what made that shape so timeless because I didn't like to throw things away Um, and at the same time I was fascinated by natural fibers. So that was uh kind of an Inherent part of what the clothes were about So Fast forward to today and I want to tell you a little bit about this project But just to say that over the years um We've begun to realize That you know, we're a we're a company that's more than just clothes And that we have a huge opportunity To make a difference and make an impact in the world And so so today we think of ourselves as a Uh a circular economy We think of ourselves as being responsible for our product from the very beginning from the seeds All the way through to the very end to the recycling and the upcycling of the products that we're doing um, we also um think of ourselves as um Our new our our new kind of deep into mission We say that we grow clothes Because we like to think of ourselves as growing natural clothes and doing it organically and responsibly We say that we grow people because over the years we've seen the huge opportunity through working together that we can grow The the our employees, but also make a difference in the lives of the people working in our supply chain And then we say we grow business for good Because as I said, we see the enormous opportunities to have impact I ran into someone earlier who said they were Oh, you were talking about it about the the girls who code That project and even though I can't tell you so much about that project I can tell you that we often do events in our stores We use that opportunity to raise money for different charities and we'll often give 10 of the proceeds of that day to to a non-profit or a charity of our choosing usually to support women and girls Because we think we need it most but So that's how you ended up in the store around that or heard about that that particular event But it's just a way we see that customers want to come on the days that we're supporting something that feels like a good cost So anyway, uh, as I was saying we see ourselves, uh, as um You know as a kind of holistic company trying to take responsibility for the whole start to finish so, um Going backwards to about seven or eight years ago now We decided to open a store in ervington near our home offices And we wanted to open a store that would be a laboratory a kind of a testing ground for Ideas we were playing with selling samples and things like that and and siggy who's in the office In the in the audience here today Wave siggy because they might want to ask you questions Because sometimes others in the company do better at answering questions than I do because they're actually You know on the front line in the midst of the work But siggy came up with this idea when we were going to open the lab store that um, you know people were wearing vintage clothes and Our clothes would be great vintage clothes and at the same time all of our employees had We're starting to accumulate closets full of clothes getting a little bit overwhelmed Personally, I had a whole room full of clothes too So it's hard to throw away things that you are that are timeless or that you know in five years or 10 years You might go like I really want that pant that I wore 10 years ago and and actually I was thinking about that today. There's one anyway But I wish I hadn't thrown away or now I didn't throw it away I I gave it to my the green eye lean, which is now the fisher found project But anyway, so we opened the lab store. I was a little nervous that with starting to Bring back the old clothes because I thought we were going to see um All kinds of mistakes and things that I didn't want to see or didn't want to remember, you know and actually what was really interesting is that We had this little section in the back of the store and the customers were going back there Just as if it was current product mixing it with the current things and they were happy because they got a better price On on some of those pieces and and it just was so Validating about the quality of the clothes and that they lasted and that and that the concept That actually still worked so the pieces didn't go out of style that was fascinating The idea actually worked so Anyway, uh, let's see. Um, what else were we trying to do? Okay, so let me See what happens next here I don't I know this is only the second time I've ever done a power point presentation in my whole life, so When I think susan or someone said we could bring slides. I was like oh slides I don't know if we have any some but we have some must have some pictures somewhere So anyway as we were we were um starting to do this recycling program We were we began to take the clothes back from customers just in a couple of the stores just to kind of get it off the ground and Um, uh, and so then we thought well, we want to let all of our customers know So we did this big and ad campaign. Um, I don't know what year it was exactly maybe five or six years ago Okay, uh, so anyway uh four four years ago something like that and uh Wonderful that was very exciting. Um, people really supported the program people brought their clothes back Well, they also got five dollars for each garment And what was interesting is that it forced them to clean their closets And cleaning your closet was such a great thing to do. Um, and when you do it you shop more consciously You know what you really wore and you know what you really loved and you know what you might need to replace And you know what's hung fell in the back of the closet and you just never wore and so you bring that learning in when you shop So you shop more consciously so Um So then Another problem arose. Um, we uh We We found that we could only sell about half of the clothes because many of the clothes had uh stains or spots or Maybe moth holes and they they needed repair, but they needed more than just repair So we were just kind of Getting more and more overwhelmed, but we committed to not putting this clothes in the landfill So we just over the year started accumulating warehouses full We had I think three or four warehouses. We didn't even know how many clothes we had And it was anyway, you get it just a little taste of this. It was quite quite crazy But meantime the the program was doing really well. We were selling we've to date We've sold like over 10 million dollars worth of clothes We've, um donated two million dollars to women and girls projects Um, and we employ 40 people With just the recycled product and um, which means, you know, we can employ people without making more stuff without creating more harm Even though as I said the our holistic responsibility and you heard earlier a little bit About maybe we didn't talk about that our vision 2020 and our and all of the sustainability work We're doing upfront, you know to you know around organic and we got a little taste. That's not what we're talking about today I go down another rabbit hole, but let's stay with this one. Uh, so so we have this big big Mountain we call the mountains of clothes and uh, so we decided that simultaneously we wanted to um do a project with the cfda And we came up with this idea. We wanted to share the work We were doing internally around sustainability wanted the next generation of designers to um To think like to have the information that we had not to have to start over and to learn What whatever we could teach them so we um decided that we would do this project and um, we uh, we Um, we partnered with the cfda and we gave an award to three designers Um, do we have one of our designers back there? Is test back there? We have a winner back there Test raise your hand and we have Cynthia and test in the back of the room. They know more about this project than I do so, um These three young women won the award. We put this contest out to 70 Schools around the country and they all three came from parson's. I don't know. I must be doing something right there anyway, um So the project um was Partly we wanted to help them learn about our project, but also Then we thought well, let's give them this mountain of clothes and see if they can what they can do with it So, um, they're incredibly creative and I was going to bring a video to show in the middle of this But I was afraid I was going to go on too long. So, um This is an incredible project and uh, they're wearing some of the garments Um, actually, um Oh I want to say I'll show you a few. Okay, so here's here's just a little taste of some of the beautiful pieces they created That are just really really stunning Um on the right, uh, is is the piece actually tests, uh, did I think? Uh, she takes, um, plant Parts of plants and um uses them to die over die clothes and And uh, the other the piece in the middle is a sweater chopped piece cut up and sewn together And the piece on the left is actually a kimono shape So the the concept continues and um, I think to take special note of this piece because It's made on the felt loom and uh It's a different it's not knit. It's not woven. It's it's felted, but it's a different, uh, it's a different Well, I'll tell you it's it's pretty interesting. So just take a special note of that that particular thing there And so then uh, we took their amazing project and they um They part of the work was to create a beautiful scalable and profitable um line of clothing Out of our re recycled clothes. So they, um They created a line of 500 pieces and each one was different. They were like small runs, but because you know You when you're cutting up old clothes You don't you don't really have exactly the same pieces. So you stack all your linen pieces and cut them and uh um, and every each piece is a little bit different So um, even though you might have the same design, uh, each each pieces has a different Quality about it. So are different. It's actually slightly different. So, um Ultimately have one of a kind pieces But it's scalable because it works within a kind of a system. So it's very interesting So then we did this fun pop-up shop out in brooklyn and we're really excited about the results and how How much people loved these products And so we decided to take the store next door. So So we'll we'll be opening that store on September I August fall goes well The other thing We did was we started to think how are we going to actually Scale this and produce this and um, so we started thinking Maybe we needed to have a little factory So, um, I have no pictures of the factory. Sorry, but the other thing that was happening simultaneously So we had an internal team while the the trio this These group of young designers was working on this one project They were working right next to in our makerspace in In ervington. They were working right next to siggy who raised their hand earlier. You meant who was actually the very first island fisher employee um Long time ago what 30 some years for whatever a long time ago Anyway, that's I could take you down another rabbit hole. We could tell a lot of stories But we won't go there. Now. We were talking about how siggy and I met At and james rosenquist Lopped, uh, which was interesting because he just passed away. I think this past week. So sort of funny Uh, siggy was the assistant to his assistant So But I stole her and we started working together. But anyway, she siggy found this siggy was also kind of You know working in the lab store running the lab store and um, kind of playing with these recycles and creating some workshops and we were doing knitting and Unraveling sweaters and sweater chop things and you know in the in the lab store and so siggy simultaneously was thinking What are we going to do with all this stuff? And she got this She found this felt loom an artisanal felt loom and I Didn't know what it was and she said to me I need $20,000 to buy this this felt loom It's going to solve what we're going to be able to put everything We're going to be able to recycle everything You know that we have and I was like well for $20,000 worth of try, you know We have a lot of stuff So sure enough This felt loom I wish I also had a film here where I could show you how it operates, but just give you a taste People they cut up the pieces and it runs through the loom and it Kind of punches the Materials together and they run it back and forth. They run it through the through the loom I don't know how many times five six seven I don't know siggy can tell you more if you're specifically interested in the details So Then let's see where do we go next? Oh, so this is maybe the first or second piece that came off of the felt loom Just cutting up the scraps and you know Actually, I have have it in my home So and then then you can see making we're making pillows You can see how over time more sophisticated The process became understanding of what this machine could do and all the possibilities and the beautiful Things that it does So then trying different things, you know Pretty interesting and that's why I wanted to call your attention to the kimono coat because it was made on this felt loom And it was interesting because I love when designers work next to each other and then they inspire each other It's very interesting and here was a we were attempting to make Rugs and we were making pillows and covers for things and Then we found we got all twisted up with labeling and With uh for we couldn't sell rugs at certain sizes and it got really complicated And we were putting the rugs in the showroom in our offices and everything and we found that they Didn't hold up that well in commercial spaces. They'd be beautiful for homes, but you know, um, not quite rugged enough So siggy said well Why don't we just hang them on the wall? So We started hanging them on the wall and people are saying oh my goodness there It's art It's amazing so And and it's just the possibilities are just endless Sorry, my photographs just don't do justice to these gorgeous pieces This was a an event we did with fast company So talking about our whole recycling project and we really just want to share what we're doing so people can learn and Continue because this is really important Work so this piece the one that was behind us is actually another problem solving It was very interesting. We had these at the end of Making these pieces on the felt loom There were these big bins of the little scraps That were created by cutting all these pieces and so I don't know someone said might have been siggy or someone else there and in the in the collective group I don't remember. I don't know. I wasn't there, but said said let's try see what happens if we put the scraps in With the scraps of the scraps and and see if we can make something And and a lot of people think this is one of the most beautiful pieces and it's just made from the scraps of the scraps So I think the the point is it's you know, there's a lot of I like to think of the creativity in you know solving problems trying to solve problems and Um Lee Edelcourt, I don't know if any of you know Lee Edelcourt came to visit the other day and she you know literally choked up to see these pieces because there really are that beautiful and um She said it's so interesting that That it takes trash or it takes I can't remember how she said it to you know to you know, kind of Get this creative process, you know that that kind of that it's actually more creative You know, we've we've gotten kind of in our design process a little bit stuck It's got to be mass-producible and it's got to work in a certain way and we in our company. We have a pretty Pretty rigid. I not that rigid but kind of rigid design philosophy and we have to kind of work within it So but this it's like this is all garbage. So we can just do anything we can try anything So it's sort of like, you know, kind of finding the gold in the in the in the garbage Um, okay, so good enough now questions. Okay. I hate these kinds of things Sorry, I wanted my photographs this piece is much more beautiful in real life. Okay So of all the things you can do in the sustainability game as a company Taking back used clothing seems like the most unpredictable Chaotic thing you could do Were either of you really prepared for it? Did you have conversations about that before you made the commitment to do it? other chaos No, no, my my biggest concern was that I wasn't going to like what I saw You know that I was going to be embarrassed about things that I you know had long You know done so many years ago that ultimate reckoning Right getting back your clothes from the 80s, but I think I think kind of like for me with like starting the business I always kind of stumble into things And I sometimes I say god if I had any idea what I was getting into if I really had to stop and think you know How many people and how much responsibility and what I was actually getting into? I don't know It's a good thing. I didn't do that and I would say the same thing probably for this although it's just too much fun I think this project has been a lot of fun. So that is worth it I'm well I'm sitting here watching as we're about to launch inviting everybody to take all their to to bring us all their stuff back so I don't know about that. I mean I can speak to it a little bit from the repair side of things that After 2011 when we did the the don't buy this jacket ad we started to see, you know, double digit growth and In repair demand and so we've been seeing some of these things come back from the 80s and that's that's that's parts pretty cool But you know, we have a hard time keeping pace with that demand, of course So both Eileen Fisher and Patagonia are known for using very very high quality fabrics And all of the approaches that you've discussed so far repair reuse and remaking garments depend on that foundation of quality Other companies if I may say cheaper brands are investing heavily in regenerated fiber technologies shredding basically Do you think that that is a viable solution? Well for them maybe I I don't know. I mean for me it just makes me sad, you know to to shred things and Because that's why I love the the felt in them and I love the Cutting and chopping and remaking and colorblock pieces and fixing and all of those things because you keep the integrity of the material And and when you start with quality materials, then sometimes they even get more amazing So it's really interesting when you start combining them and all so but I think for the fast fashion kind of group Um, I think that's what they have to do and so I think You know there are ways to do that that I'm sure are meaningful It's not the area we're working in but you know people recycle polyester and all those things We actually make coats out of recycled polyester. So, you know, there there are I mean, I we know these guys in Taiwan They're called mini whiz. They're kind of amazing and they they built a museum out of recycled bottles It's beautiful. It's amazing the building itself Well, they the outside of the building I'm not really sure about how the structure works. Siggy could answer that if you have a question later Because she's really close to those guys. They're great I mean, I think um You know, we've each Have these companies that have found solutions that fit Who we are as brands? And I think that actually these fast fashion companies are really really well situated To execute a closed-loop model because they have ample retail stores. God knows they have volume and if they can um design Products for recyclability and they have the funding to help these r&d projects That are sort of in these up and coming recycling potential solutions that are into r&d phases If they can fund that and they can give them the supply of stuff, then that's a great, um Model I think but um I don't think in reality a fast fashion model is a legitimate business model if we paid the true cost of natural resources Right because even if you can recover all of the polyester You're not recovering the water and the energy and the human labor and everything else that went into it along with the Raw materials Right, right. That's why I like to think that it's Companies should be responsible for the whole for all of their environmental and social impacts. So that's But I think would be really hard for those companies to do But I think that they could do even upfront they could and they have more resources So they could invest in closed-loop processes In the in the beginning, but still it's energy. I don't know. I don't know. It's not Business I I study too much. So but I also think the consumer. I think Not so much fast fashion, but in general if consumers play a role in terms of just being less Less like buying less, you know and I would say buy better, but then that's not to be elitist, but you know that good things last Is it a problem for you that you're not high enough volume to Work in like polyester recycling for example, do you have to be a very high volume business to Get into that I don't know anything about the polyester recycling. Yeah, no, I mean and and not that I know the the back end polyester commodity pricing Then can quote them for you, but I think You know kind of I was alluding to this a little bit before that If we paid that true cost for polyester virgin polyester would be Should be so much more expensive than Recycled polyester, but we don't account for the damage done to extract the oil that goes into the polyester I don't think I'm totally answering your question exactly there, but So what is the biggest challenge that you face with your garments that you take back Is it deconstructing the garments? Is it blended yarns? Is it lycra spandex? That's a good start check check check check check I mean for for us, I still think the mountains of clothes just keeping up with the mountains of clothes and and trend and Getting the process moving so that we can actually Make a really serious dent and really in in the Product that we have and move it out More quickly the other thing that we Who are struggling with a lot of things another one is just the actual Time and energy involved in the Preparation the sorting we have so many we have a huge space and so many so much complexity in sorting all the many different fabrics and Then when you're going to actually do a production cutting and You know one of the things that sort of shocked me the other day. I was talking with our kind of Head of manufacturing who's handling the tiny factory too and and I was concerned I thought the biggest cost was the sewing because it's a more complicated sewing than our simple pieces He said no, we can sew the pieces For maybe 15 dollars of garment, but the the bigger cost Someone told me is it's about 45 dollars the sorting and prep cutting and prep for that to get The product ready to sew so that that was a bit shocking to me We have to get that cost in some manageable way mechanize it to some extent, but still it's not not easy because you're dealing with all these different product different products And then how does that impact the pricing? And that it's because there's so much labor that goes into the sorting and everything else that it's like the recycled project Should be more expensive than the the virgin product so to speak so I imagine that that's Something that you right, but actually what's interesting is what I've been Looking at thinking about the business model because I love this kind of intersection between art and design and business because I'm a problem Solver you know so I I like thinking that in when we make virgin product We have to pay for the fabric and so it's quite expensive actually because we use pretty good quality fabric And so in this case we're you know, we're you know capturing the fabric that's about to be Wasted and it doesn't actually the actual cost of goods is is not there. It's in it's in the labor And the processing so we're actually giving people jobs, you know, and so that's a good thing Yeah, and I think We so we have kind of a different take back methodology and and we were talking a little bit earlier about those today So it's you guys collect everything in a single point source and then sort it and then We do the opposite and collect in three distinct categories of you know stuff People send us for repairing stuff they send for reuse and then when they send for recycling So it's it's it's an interesting Reach creating our own bed. I guess to sleep. I don't know which you know, which they each have their advantages and disadvantages I mean on the recycling from the challenge we have is that we set out to make these incredibly durable garments and then you have to take them apart And so somebody wants like a million dollar ideas like set up a Factory for taking for deconstructing garments that's There's any students out there Want to do that? We'll pay you. Um, we do that all in house right now and it's challenging. It's hard and Recycler's kind of we're at their whim because we're small, you know And and so that's a challenge on that side for sure. It's deconstruction. I'd say that's that's the toughest for us We don't have probably quite as many material blends But that's a huge challenge too, especially if you're in talking about a municipal recycling stream across multiple brands and and Uses to like how do you identify each fiber type and blend thereof? So you say that these blended yarns are a problem has that impacted your choice of fabrics as a designer. Do you try to avoid Are you thinking about trying to avoid the use of lycra or Yes, well, we're not quite at the eliminating the lycra thing, but we're working Um But we're we're Working a lot with Not using rayon Because we're finding We're struggling to recycle it and it doesn't go in the felt loom and It doesn't go in the felt loom. It's it also it also it also pills But it happens to be our customer's favorite fabric. So we're struggling with that conflict You know and we've we've struggled with it on the on the front end around our vision 2020 project and struggling about rayon because rayon is cellulose and this is one of the big problems in the industry is that cellulose is sold in bulk And products that are sold in bulk are harder to trace And so we are demanding traceable Rayon so cellulose comes from trees and it's in some cases unknown whether it comes from cut from the rainforest from cutting down the rainforest So in indonesia, you know, that that's where A lot of the cellulose comes from so so we are committed to Completely only traceable rayon Pretty much most we're mostly there but by 2020 absolutely. So that's part of our vision 2020 So there's The lycra. I don't know where we are with lycra by 2020. I don't know about that And and and sigi and others could speak to the products with lycra in them and what we're actually able. I know that in the when we remake pieces we can use the lycra pieces and we can you know So that we instead of the problem with blends is that you can't melt them down And so that if we're not melting them down, it's not the same problem So we have less concern about that as long as we can find a way to reuse them Or remake them Okay, so as a consequence of your commitments You are now the owner of a recycling facility And patagonia now The largest repair facility in the country And I can't imagine there were that many models for that kind of thing and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about How you designed the facility. Did you work with the municipal recycling centers? Did you look at other models? For that my very first job was doing repairs at the dry cleaner. So I have something like that In my mind from my i'm sure we have an opening an opening in rena where we have it Well, I mean it's a little bit. I think this is another like kindred spirit um between patagonia and eileen fisher that that We sometimes stumble into these things and then figure it out. So I'd love to sit here and say oh, yeah We design this recycling facility and it's lean manufacturing. It's none of that. Um I think in 2009 or 10 we employed 12 people today at 75 We churned out 45 000 repairs last year. We are the largest repair facility in north america second Uh, largest after a gear second, uh, there's a military factory that does more repairs than that So you're very hard to compete with the u.s. government on numbers So I think um, we thus far we've sort of tried to solve this by throwing bodies at it And now we really have to solve the efficiency equation And how do you create streamlined processes around? um An art and a craft because each repair is unique. There's of course You know repeatable processes, but At the same time literally each one really is unique. There's been difference been interesting We wrote a couple years ago. We wrote about 40 guides for people to repair their patagonia stuff and there you can Check them out. They're all free. Yeah And we started to write uh, how to replace the main zipper in a down sweater And we realized I think we had maybe somewhere between four to six constructions over 15 years of a product and they open up differently and we learn things around the along the way and so While we're while we have to clean up that back end what I'm another one of these sort of internal influence projects that I'm really excited about is This rating system that our quality department actually runs where we rate every newly revised style now For every season and part of and we rate it according to the design principles that we wrote and let my people go surfing the book that that evan wrote and What's really cool about this is when it comes to rating the repair ability of it We actually have a person from our repairs department sit there and rate it and It really knocks the socks off our designers. They're like, oh Really that's gonna be that hard. Yeah, it's gonna be that hard and it's starting It'll take a while, you know with design cycles to see those changes in the line But we are really trying to design for repair ability. So that so we're kind of approaching it from both both sides How do you triage and how do you look forward to and work out in the future? Yeah Two things. Well, I wanted to just say something because in terms of the designer design, you know, it's what you see Uh from the back end can inform the design process. And so I know that our Recycling recycling group and designers there will go in and talk with the designers in the company and we're trying to Think about what that means design for reuse remaking and that kind of thing So, uh, I I haven't heard the reports and what they're finding and what they're talking about But I but just setting up that line of communication is a really good start But back to your first question around the the Uh recycling Operation facility not realizing we were stumbling into that Pretty much we did it the way I do everything, you know, which is Do one thing and see what happens and then It sort of informs the next thing. So we you know, opened a little tiny You know, we took one room in the building where the factory currently is and I I don't remember how big it was. It was pretty small And um, we were doing repairs there and we do some we do repairs not to the extent quite that you do but we definitely do repairs So we do So we were doing repairs there and we were, you know Starting to take in the clothes and then I just remember going into that room one time and that was terrified that That that pile of clothes because they weren't even on shelves at the time There were a whole bunch of them that weren't even on shelves They were just throwing the things and because there were so many it was so overwhelming But then it was like, oh my god We need shelves We need to we need to get a bigger space and it just kind of kept going like that and then Uh, it was really just recently that we opened the tiny factory. So we've opened in in Irvington a space that's 20 000 square feet and we have a recycled store there and we have a our Operation a recycling operation And then we have a whole storage area and then we have now the tiny factory where and a design studio where we're You know designing and remaking things So that's just been opened. And so there was a little bit of Formal support for that. I know that Cynthia's in the back might have be able to answer other people's questions But she took a trip out to see the renewal project. I don't know and I think you came back saying I think we're ahead of them I can't remember what you said exactly is in the event And then you she hired some people called lean to help to sort of organize You know some of the Operation So but we didn't there's not a lot of models to follow And has it been difficult to find skilled labor? We it's not something we've struggled As much as one would would think with it and we kind of have a graduated training program too. So we can We can bring people up And people are really excited to sew like it's it's one of the things that just warms my heart is Is like the interest especially in younger people too of sewing and I one of my favorite things to see at a one-wear event is like a child I've seen it all in europe. I've seen in the u.s. Maybe 10 to 12 years old and they'll sit in front of a one-wear seamstress there And watch all day Like it's it's like magic what happens so and actually what's cool about it is that the the That they're actually Sewing different things and it's not like mass mad mass production where you're just like nose to the grindstone Sewing all day long, but it says a more creative feel about it and more interesting because it's always changing Oh, there's another new fabric and look at that. Look at this one. Look at this So it's something really interesting and also our our our sewers We have five sewers and we're doing we're training too and there sometimes they get to spend time on the felt loom So that's another fun thing to to Be engaged in So you both seem to be feeling out the terrain of selling used clothing alongside new merchandise And both working with yurtle. I understand. Can you talk a little bit about the ups and downs of That not of yurtle specifically, but of selling used clothing suddenly Yeah, well, we said we've been selling it in our company stores, which are kind of they're almost outlet but not exactly they're sort of in between because they have some current product and some Um Recycles and some last year product And that's been going really well It seems to just work perfectly so but we also Kind of want to test the idea in some of our other stores because Um, we really like the way it validates the concept You know, it reminds people that it's the closer timeless It also gives another customer who maybe can't afford the current product access to the product And so we'll we'll find a younger customer or a customer that You know is just looking needs the lower price point And so that's nice to have more integration like that But yurtle is brand new so we don't know yet Well, I think we're you know, both of our organizations are working with them I I'm kind of shocked that they're gonna photograph every garment and put it online to sell I don't even I would go like oh my god. That's not a successful business model, but they're doing it They must find a way so I don't know. Hopefully it's successful. Hopefully we invested in it. So hopefully it's gonna work. Okay How much time it takes to take a photograph, but just describe what it is for people who are yeah So um yurtle is a is a company that helps brands figure out a reuse strategy that works for them And we are their first two clients. So You'll you'll see them Oh We're all Yeah, we call it launch and learn see what happened. Launch and learn Um And that's kind of been it is like, you know, I'll sit in meetings like well, what's your forecast? I'm like I I don't know I can't tell you um Like I pull data points from here and there because I I am kind of like a math nerd and I can't really I can't really give anything solid. We're really going to launch and learn and figure it out. Um We have about like I think half the retail footprint that you guys have and so It's always been a challenge for us to put worn wear in stores We we did it in portland for about five years and it was a great learning opportunity there our portland, or again store um and But our our stores tend to be in reclaimed buildings. They're odd spaces. They're small They're beautiful, but they're not easily There's not a lot of extra space left and you know, we really see it's like these these products kind of have seen the light of day Once so it's time to let the new things, you know be exposed to people who want to shop them So that's why we're interested in trying the e-commerce idea too And and that being said it's accessible to anybody in the in the us Not just people who live near a Patagonia store who already put maybe in the family who can shop the sale so We're really excited to see what happens. The other thing you could do is we have two only Fisher found only recycled stores and that's if you want to separate it if you because there's a concern I know some of our business people were very concerned that if we put it in our we call company stores Then people would buy that at a lower price than another piece from last year. Maybe And and we didn't find necessarily that that it was a problem in the end Our sales continued to increase in those stores. So we don't know what you know Whether that's true or not we haven't that hasn't proven to be true But you have to have the space you're right that you have to have the space We wouldn't do it in any of our current smaller stores, but but opening, you know funky. I like that idea Yeah We'll be interesting to see because we really we don't even have a forecast on what we're going to get from From customers from our trade, you know, we call our trade-in process So if we have an experience like you guys have like well, why am I'm not anticipating that much stuff? So I'll be pleasantly surprised and then there might be an opportunity because we actually feel we're pretty inventory limited In this program. That's one of the challenges that we have Yeah, I see we we have these customers that have like closets full of island Fisher claws That's sort of like addicts, which is kind of cool. But at some point they're like, uh I'm really glad to you have this recycling program. So you have mountains and you have molehills I don't even know what we're about to climb So, how do you measure the impact of these initiatives of the Fisher found and the worn wear? Well, I mean just to be frank like I mean I put that slide up of things that Patagonia has done in the past and we're so small that we're not Going to legitimately move that sustainability meter, you know from a numbers standpoint We're not going to Patagonia's move to organic cotton didn't really Necessarily do anything, you know, but what I think, you know, we serve and maybe you feel the same way is that We can be an incubator for ideas for the rest of the apparel industry And so we're, you know, really hoping that worn wear, you know, it's built into our business model proves that there is A benefit to the bottom line Of repair and reuse still that it's not just a cost center for a company. So I think You know, we while we can shrink our footprint and we can amortize the manufacturing impacts by extending the life of the clothing We make and you know, we can measure that to some extent and we can measure engagement We can count repairs and we can do all these things But at the end of the day, it's going to be if we've inspired other companies To build a like program that works for them. That's our true measure of success Well said, I agree with that because we only take back currently even with all the piles and mountains of clothes We have is two percent of what we make a year So we have a long way to go And we have to make it move faster in order to even take twice as much so it's it's It's a big deal, but but if we can inspire others, I think that's Meaningful I think in 10 years of recycling again, I did this sort of math Calculation one day in 10 years of recycling with like about 95 tons of stuff or something like that and it equates to Less than two percent Of the weight of a spring average spring line in weight So I mean this yeah, it's uh It's not much All right, well, I'm gonna leave it there because I want to be sure To have time for some questions from the audience So if anyone has a question, please raise your hand the program is being both live streamed and videotaped So please wait for the microphone before you ask your question. Suzanne is coming around right now. Thank you Hi there Quick question actually I have two one is the office felt art for sale at all yet That's the first question True and then the second question is I know you guys are trying to influence and inspire other like potentially larger companies to get on board with The whole idea of being a little more eco friendly and having like a less of an impact on the environment because you guys are smaller operations, but in addition to influencing are any actions being taken to kind of like Push them further along give them a gentle push apart from being like hey, we're doing this. Why don't you do it? I mean, I think some of the industry groups like the sustainable apparel coalition That is creating these industry benchmarks Actually put some numbers to like where we're at and that it was even for us filling out The the modules for that program in particular showed us that while we like squirt off the charts in this Repair and reuse side. There are other parts of our company that we needed to pay more attention to where we could learn from our you know fellow so I I think those industry programs are really are helpful and engaging all of us Yeah, yeah, there's there's quite a few And again, I I'm I'm it's not where I live in the company. So I don't I don't I know that there are a lot of connections with other companies and a lot of different mutual projects people working on die houses and China and together and people working on we worked and if we were almost involved in the wool project with you that um sustainable wool project and I'm also part of an organization called the fair fashion institute and they they um they gather CEOs of the large fashion companies and They have liaisons and they meet and you know Um Concretely what's coming out. I'm I'm not you know, I can't actually speak specifically to all of that but uh Maybe others can in the organization I'm thinking Rebecca McGee, but she's not here is the liaison for our organization. So and Probably Cynthia and others here could answer better What else is happening in other companies? But we have the fashion industry is way behind And I think consumers have to put pressure And actually one of the interesting things that is happening is that consumers are are shopping less And you can see like stores closing, you know, and I I really think the companies that are Are ahead of the game on this and trying to Really take responsibility are are going to come out ahead You know, so I'm I'm believing in that and that's what I'm saying at the fair fashion institute I'm telling all the other CEOs we have to lead we have to You know try to change the industry because it desperately needs changing I am just such a believer that that there's a way to actually Turn this industry into real force for good that you know, we can clean the water as we go There are there are dye houses. There are Factories that work like that there are you know Factories operating on cleaner energy and things like that. There are much better ways to do this So working together is really the kind of is the secret Hi Oh the office belts. All right, you can talk to siggy. It's not officially for sale But if behind the scenes a few people have some access Hi, um, thank you so much. It's it's just very inspiring to hear both of you and I think it's great But I have a question two questions. First of all, what about bamboo in in because I It was very popular for a while and now it isn't and I just have a feeling that maybe it's difficult to work with as far as That goes. I know it's using flooring and everything but in Fabric I'm not so sure and the other thing is is any of this available to consumers online Are do or you're not far enough of advanced with that or what the you're talking about the Uh, upcycled the pieces that we were showing Um, not yet, but but in our brooklyn's store When we open in august and we're going to do some pop-ups. I think this summer. Isn't that right? Cynthia am I right about that? Cynthia Uh, probably not just in brooklyn. I don't know if sythia can you need a mic sythia if you're going to answer that question Hi, this would be a perfect moment to plug some events that we have coming up for eileen history I thought about it. Um, we have some uh, earth day events coming up in our, um 10 eileen fisher stores at the end of april in uh, new york city We'll have the soho store We'll have a little fisher found pop-up from april 20th to april 30th And it will have reworn renewed and remade product So you can go there to see the full line of everything eileen has been talking about And you will also be able to buy the reworn product on fisherfound.com after april 20th Oh, that's cool. I didn't know that There you go So we're taking pictures of all of it. Cynthia. Wow That's impressive. Oh goodness Oh bamboo We don't use bamboo because of the water issues around processing. Oh around bamboo. Yeah, so we use um, 10 cell Yeah, yeah, we use 10 cell also Um, but we don't use bamboo, but I don't know why We use hemp and other good things Um, I just more I want just to like to say that I'm so proud that what both of you are doing Um, I had the opportunity of going to montreal and spending some time there. My husband was working on a film And uh, we went to the montreal world's fair grounds And saw the museum of waste And it was one of the most powerful things i've ever seen in my life Um, because it is inside the museum of waste of these enormous columns They're about 20 feet tall and they're made of plexiglass and in each column is a category And one category is cell phones and electronics another category is toys And another tech category is disposable clothes And I went out of there and thought to myself I have to not dispose of things anymore and I have to think about what how I can reuse things And also the other thing I had to say is that how many times am I going to see somebody 10 15 times in my life and that I can keep Recycling my own clothes and people have never seen them before and that's really a nice thing to do But I also just wanted to share that I was at the Shop the pop-up shop in brooklyn and I bought one of the tops that one of your student designers did And I have to say the quality was so superb And so beautiful and the hand of it is so great and I I just thank you for talking for doing this because it's really I think changing the fashion world and making people people really rethink about things That's I had to say these things Anyway bravo Well, thank you to you too. Thank you I've been wearing Eileen Fisher clothes for a very long time probably since you started to make them and Recycling Eileen Fisher clothes is a different thing. It's wonderful what you're doing in your factory But everybody I know that wears them is recycling them either to their friends Or they send them to uh dress for success or they They go or they put them on ebay But they have a long life before they ever get back to be made into Into felt or into anything else and as I was listening to you And you were talking about how to get them back. I think maybe You would have put a little label in the back besides Eileen Fisher. Maybe the fifth owner Will then send it back to you I because the first owner definitely is not sending it back to you Well, that makes me feel so much better about the fact that we only get 2 of our clothes back Well now you know There is by the way a little label in the clothes that says that we take them back It's somewhere in the garment. Yeah Hi there to go further on the consumer part of this Um, is there any plants in place to show consumers either in store? I actually took a course in Irvington with the poof What what the poof well for people who don't know this these were courses that you were able to sign up for And make things out of recyclable Uh clothing from Eileen Fisher And the fun thing was it was almost like a small hassack And it was I still use it and I love it and then those courses sort of stopped Uh, maybe I didn't maybe I'm not looking at the right place But what I was thinking of you know, we all have so many things And we all want to be creative and it's nice to give the things back But it's also nice to make the products our own And I wondered if there was anything in place in either one of your companies either in store or individually or Yes, that might be happening Well, um, we've started and stopped that project twice the first time we started we were You know storm sandy hit and we had to stop the project for a while and then the second time I don't know we got tripped up, you know, and So we are planning again We we we just need to build out the staff to do that kind of thing And we're planning when we open the brooklyn store that we'll be doing it there And we have I don't know whether we're gonna we do some things in ervington still sewing and knitting classes in the lab store there But we're we're still kind of learning how we can do this And and make it so it doesn't you know Isn't too much work or doesn't cost us too much so we can do it and within kind of the store context So it's but but we'll get there because we're committed to it. We love the idea And when people people really want to do it they want to use their hands They want to create something and make it special We do something kind of similar through one where we call it DIY and we bring out stuff that is broken And we bring out those supplies to fix it and people pick something out And we show them how to fix it and they can fix it. They keep it for free Yeah, so Yeah, because we do we do a thing like that with unraveling sweaters We let people unravel the sweaters and then they get to take the yarn home, you know, so it's like the opposite if you break it You buy it. You fix it. You buy it. You fix it. You break it. You keep it. Yeah, I like that That's very good So I think we have time for just um one more question Well briefly, thank you very much for this program As you were talking I got to wondering if you do or if you've tried to Gather other companies into this is just is are you the only two companies that do this and Is there a way to build a coalition? It seems to me like some of those large conglomerates if they were willing to participate could also put a lot of money into it and maybe Get us you could get a snowball effect out of that Yeah Well, I know we have had we've had some people coming to look at our program I know people from caring. Do you know that organization? They own Stella McCartney and several other I think for us the kind of things that We do that we would would be good to get other people involved and or at least share what we know so that people can Maybe be inspired and interested to do it Would work only for the people making a fairly high quality the high quality materials I think um just logistically it's Really challenging to do it Within our own walls Not to say that we shouldn't or couldn't Open that up I have I've had in my time I think two inquiries of how from other companies Seeing how they could license one where They wanted to license the concept like as if I was going to send them a box of like this how you do it I'm like, I wish I could that would be amazing if I could I would um But there is another company in Oregon called the renewal workshop that has that we've worked with and and Shared some of our best practices with and they are kind of serving as a plug-and-play solution for Brands that want programs similar to fisher found and worn wear So I think that's What's great about that? It's a marketable solution and it's creating jobs and you know as you said jobs without creating more stuff And You know, I think that's a great great opportunity especially for smaller brands So I really congratulate them on that Yeah, um, I I was it made me think that that I would I heard once that some of these really kind of high-end design companies I'm not going to name any names, but um they They don't like to see their clothes Downmarket and they don't and so I've heard that they actually burned them And You know, not only all the cost involved in making them but the Carbon you're adding when you burn things. It just makes me want to cry And I I have a kind of a dream that we would have some big factory with Lots of felt looms and we would go to those companies and we would say you don't have to do that We promise we won't we'll remake them, you know, but Again, it's far away for us. We're still trying to get get ourselves up and running I think it will be really interesting to watch because I think we think about business on You know way beyond quarterly returns and we're thinking 10 20 100 years out And so that's why service models make a lot of sense when you take that viewpoint But if you're looking at, you know, quarterly returns and you have to like demonstrate an ROI on a 20,000 Fenton Felt Loom, you're not going to do it And and so I don't know where these programs will go Will they become services that spin off out of these out of our companies? I don't know like I don't think anybody knows what that landscape is going to look like But I do think that Moving towards a service portion of a business model is is I mean, it's great for interacting with your customers It's great from a business risk perspective as well, too. It insulates us from commodity pricing Things I mean, it's a very small business right now, but it has the potential to do something like that Yeah, maybe we're in on the cutting edge of the future. No, it's exciting. I I love the idea that that with the Remaking that we make one of a kind, you know, and so and I and to see these women sewing these one of a kind These are very exciting because you know, you really feel that You're you're recreating like a little like a little business again And everything becomes more like almost more local in the way it could be made and and yes Things will cost more, but they might be more precious and more uniquely our own So there there's something interesting and like You know moving away from the Massive fashion everybody wearing the same things to how do we really uniquely find our own? Great. Thank you. Eileen. Thank you. Nellie so much for being here this evening and thank all of you