 I just finished a great interview with Laura Toggs. Laura and her husband Pete are the youth pastors of Hillsong Sydney Church, a great church, and they also head up a young people's movement globally called Young and Free. Laura also has a secret garden TV show, especially aimed at young mums, young women like herself. We spoke about all of that and some of their joys, challenges, concerns, hopes for young people now and for the future. It was a great interview. She's a lovely human being. You're going to love this interview. Don't forget to subscribe to my podcast channel. Thank you. Before you get started on today's podcast with Paul Scanlon, we just wanted to let you know that he now has a free course available to you. If you head over to paulscanlon.com forward slash free course, you'll be able to sign up to his video series called the five behaviors of successful people. We hope that this course adds value to your life. Now enjoy the podcast. How have you felt about the pandemic, Laura? I mean, I've come to decide three months in almost that perhaps it has, it had some hidden blessings for us all that we didn't think at first. Do you think that and what do you think some of those are? Yeah. I mean, well, if I'm honest with you, for me, I have my health and so in that sense, I've been really blessed and I've really enjoyed, I've actually really enjoyed being in isolation surprisingly. And I think for, for me, it's been like, I've realized that I don't need or want as much as I thought that I did. So I thought, I think I had this idea of what I, what I love. I had this idea that I love to be on the run. I love to be on the go. I love to kind of like be traveling and, you know, going from place to place and event and so on. And I've realized that pulling that all back and not having that as even an option has shown me that I actually, I don't need that to find, I guess, fulfillment or even like the satisfaction of that. I think I've been surprised at how much I've loved just simplifying the way that we live and that quality time with family. I've just, I've loved that. I think I've loved like, I've loved, I'm going slower, but, but more intentional. And I found that having, having more time, but being intentional with my time, I've gained a whole lot more knowledge about even like, like skills wise. Like I've realized that I've got more in me. Whereas before I just didn't have the time to kind of explore, like and try new things. So for me, like really simple, but like I've, I've realized that I can cook. Or at least there's potential there, there's potential. But yeah, that was something that I just, I just wrote off. I was like, no, I don't cook. I can't, but having, having more time and putting the thought into it, the, the effort into it, I realized that, yeah, that's a skill that I could, that, that I could develop. I've also started painting. Yeah. Um, look, I'm no Picasso, but a lot of people think Picasso is crap. Yeah. No, I think, I don't know. It's just, I, I mean, I don't know. I don't know how to really describe it. I've been doing like some, I don't know. I was that surprised you the whole sort of, like I, would you say an introvert extrovert? Have you ever thought about that before this? I think that I, I think before I was a mother, I was quite introverted. I was happy to be like at home. But then I think when I became a mother and I had people in little people in my personal space constantly, um, I, something within me, like something within me changed where I really enjoyed going out socializing with adults and that would re-energize me. So yeah. The way does the painting in you come from? Have you done that before? Is that a new thing? I think I've always been a creative. Um, and I've always been curious if I could paint, I, I did art when I was younger in school. Um, but I had never picked up a paintbrush in my adult life until, um, probably at the beginning of the pandemic actually. And it's interesting because, um, because last year I was, I was pregnant and I knew that I would be going into a new season having a baby. And one of the things I thought, I would, you know, well, I have a little bit of time off with the baby. I'm going to try and paint. Um, and so I already kind of had it within me, like that idea within me. But um, but yeah, I think for me, I think creativity runs in our family. My mom is very, very creative in her, her own way. My dad is creative in his very unique way. Um, I think, you know, all of us, we love music, we love, um, visual arts, you know, we've got, I don't know, we've always, all of us have, um, an appreciation for art. Um, and so I think it's, I think it probably comes from, from that. Yeah, from, from the family. What will you keep after the pandemic? What, what about this? Will you keep, as opposed to, you know, people talk about going back to normal as if normal was great anyway, which it wasn't, but all realizing as you said on the world, what are we in a rush to get back to kind of thing? So what would you, what do you think you'll keep out of the pandemic and the lockdown that you've discovered should now be a constant in your life kind of thing? Yeah, um, I really practically speaking, I think, um, I think just, just kind of slowing and simplifying things down. And like I said, just being really intentional with your, the days, like down to the, down to the very moments of just, like for me, I've just, I've realized that even this, like this, this is my phone. Yeah. Even like, I feel like I'm even more aware of how much I am on screens as opposed to doing things with my hands. The one reason that I love painting is because I've got something in my hand and I am doing something that's not like, not engaging with a screen and such as tangible. And the same thing with cooking, I feel like it's like, it's kind of practicing this like mindfulness, but it's, but it's practical and it's tangible. And, um, and so I hope that, yeah, I hope that that remains that I don't, when things return, I don't get so consumed with, uh, the hurry and, and busy and so on that, um, that, yeah, I just lose sight of the value of, yeah, of, I don't know, yeah, doing some of those like practical creative things, I think. Do you think you've been happier in the lockdown to use that word? Have these things made you, do you think a happier person? Yeah, I do. I think I have, I think I have had a deeper level of contentment than I have in, in many years. Um, and, you know, for me to wake up in our our suburban home and to walk to the coffee shop and, you know, pass by people in our neighborhood who are also on their daily walk and at those little things like have been really sweet and, um, and I think for me, because like I have family who are now living across the other side of the world and, you know, I have people who were here and there and so on. There was a good, uh, portion of the last few years where I was, my mind and my heart was somewhere else, I think. Whereas I think for me, I'm like, I actually feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be and I'm happy. I'm happy where, where I'm at and, um, that's a huge win for me personally that I'm, I'm finding that deep sense of contentment where I am. I've noticed people posting throughout the pandemic and the lockdown about noticing much more the birds or nature or the weather or the environment around them, you know, as if it just suddenly appeared rather than that, that was always there. Maybe you just slowed down long enough to realize it was always there. You were tuned out to it. That's got to be a great thing for our humanity and simplifying our life, don't you think? Yeah. And, you know, you think like, I mean, we know that, you know, things like mental illness and so on is such a big thing for people of all ages, wherever, you know, they may be right across, right across the breadth of humanity. It's, it's a huge thing. And so I think, you know, my mom put it this way, it's as if we've all gone to our bedrooms, you know, like when you're a child and like the siblings and they're in contention and your mom, you know, sends them to their room to sort themselves out. It's like we'll be sent into our homes just to sort ourselves out a little bit. For me, I relate to that because I think, you know, I think it's been a really rewarding experience of, yeah, like I said, just understanding what's important, dealing with some of the things that we have. But in the process, it's like creating this mindfulness that is actually very good. It's very healing. And it's, yeah, it's a, it's very like a practical way to deal with things like anxiety or, or whatever else you might be dealing with. So I think loneliness, anxiety, depression, etc. is huge at this time amongst young people as well. I know you guys work a lot amongst young people and talk to you, talk to you about that in the minute. But is it something you feel has come on the radar more in the lockdown? Have you had more people reaching out for that? Does it become a bigger thing for you to address? Yeah, I think, you know, like I have, I felt really sorry for some of my friends who were around my age who were single. And I know they went into this year, you know, hoping to meet new people and, and in a, like in a, in a way that's been postponed, you know, like there's been like many things that we can think about, like, you know, events being postponed or canceled or whatever. But for many people, they just felt like, oh, even their hopes and their dreams or their desires for this year at a personal level, you know, and so I feel for those people. And I, and I know as well, like I'm blessed because I live in a quite spacious environment. And I have my family and so on. And, you know, I can go down for a walk on the street and I pass by a friend who lived down the road. And so there is that element of connection, whereas a lot of people don't have that. And so I, I know that there are a lot of young people, a lot of people in general who have been doing it really tough. And my heart goes out to them, you know, but I have a feeling that we're going to come out of this pandemic and we are going to feel like it was all a dream. Like it already does feel a little bit like that, like a bit of a blur. And so I, I believe that it's not going to be wasted for people that we would have learned many things. And if anything, we're going to come into this next season of life, whatever that looks like, with a greater sense of intentionality and purpose. Yeah, I've been teaching about the prosperity of the soul for quite a while now around the world. And when I met you guys at Youth America, I was speaking to the young people there about the soul, out of this awareness that I think the emerging generation, as you know, you guys are with them all the time, are not looking to live anymore from the outside in, but to live from the inside out, the much more aware than my generation were of the need to look after yourself internally. And I wonder if the lockdown is making them aware of that more, that happiness actually is much closer to you than you thought it was. As you said, it doesn't require as many things or people or travel or opportunities as you thought it would require. I wonder if it will have a good effect on the emerging generation, especially with you guys working with so many young people, that they will come to see things, we've been trying to tell them for decades, that as you get older, you figure out what matters is not what you thought that mattered. And maybe a pandemic will accelerate that understanding amongst young people, you think? It's funny because I saw a meme yesterday that said, in the matter of this generation, in a matter of days, went from making banana bread to eradicating racism. And I thought, oh yeah, if that kind of puts my generation into perspective, I think that up until now, we live in the digital age and for us, as a generation, we've got challenges that we're figuring out. And I think we are masters of putting on facades, creating an image, projecting that image online. But I think, if anything, that has got exhausted and young people, especially, I think they are just so hungry for what's real and also, I guess, not projecting, but giving that, I mean, living with a sense of encouraging that in others, of being real and not projecting this false image of yourself and understanding that it does start from within. And for me, one of the things that I do is The Secret Garden, which specifically for girls. But I was, how that came about was, I felt like I wanted to do something online. I wanted to do some sort of blog. I was interested in fashion. I was interested in interior design and beauty and all those sorts of things. But I looked and I thought, well, that's being done. Like that's like almost oversaturated. And I just didn't know if that was my lane. And as I began to kind of think about what I was supposed to do, I really felt like, well, you know what, it's all good. Like if you're creating this appearance and there's nothing wrong with that. But if you are going home at the end of the day and put laying your head on the pillow and you are empty, or like there's no, you're tending to, you're not tending to what's within. And all your energy is on what's external, but not on what's internal. Then, you know, that's, that is a sad, sad reality for people and for young women. And so, and so I really felt like that was, that was a good thing for this generation. Is like inside first, that's where it starts. Like you said, the prosperity of our soul and our heart and tending to what's within. We have to start there because these are interesting days that we're living in and that this generation is a part of and yeah. And I think the stillness, I think the stillness we talked about getting still long enough for that part of your humanity to connect with you that moves you into painting or moves you into some other interest that you didn't know was in you. I wonder if out of this pandemic will come a lot of entrepreneurial ideas, a lot of new businesses, a lot of new initiatives in the church because we've all got still long enough to connect with a part of us that is normally crowded out by all the business and all the noise. Yeah. Hey, I was going to ask you to, sorry, Laura, I was going to ask you to about, you know, the racism thing that's going on in the world. What has been your feeling towards all of that? What has been your thinking about it? You know, a couple of weeks on, of course, from George Floyd's death. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, I feel like we are in the thick of it at the moment as pastors, as friends and peers. So for me, initially, it was, you know, I saw the video of George Floyd and it was just heartbreak. It was just feeling that sense of just helplessness and hopelessness for this man. And, and then it quickly moved, oh, actually, I took a couple of days, but it moved into this space where I realized that this has opened up a deep wound for people. And it's not just this thing that's going on in the USA, but we are a part of a really beautiful, diverse community. We have a large African community within our church. We have people of color and, you know, our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people here in Australia. And, and, and we, I've, you know, realized within the last few days that people are really, really hurting. They're in pain over, over this situation and what it has exposed, this, this wound that has been there for a long time for hundreds of years, generations. But it has just, I guess, I feel, I really am, I don't understand. And I'm admitting that I may never understand because I am a white woman. But, but I am, my eyes are being open and I feel like there's an awakening happening across the earth where we realize that this is, this is a huge thing. This is a huge thing on, on the radar for the, for the earth of humanity. And, and I think we're, we're having to, we're being forced to wake up and pay attention. And Linda is listening here for Peter and I, the last, the last week has been just not speaking too much, just having conversations and just listening to people in their pain and understanding the reality that they live with daily. So yeah. Is it something you guys have spoken about in the past quite a bit to young people, the whole racism thing, especially with you and Peter being mixed race or whatever the right terms are these days. But have you felt because of that, that you guys are standing in front of these young people and you therefore perhaps are able to have a voice to them about that. Obviously it's very raised in our consciousness now, but has it been a thing you felt has come up a lot in the past with young people or you've intentionally raised it or what? Yeah. I mean, I think there's, there was a, a knowledge of it as such. But even for Peter, Peter Fiji and he migrated to Australia when he was one, one year old and with his family. I met him when I was as young as six. You know, he's grown up in our church. Yeah. And I never thought, I've just never crossed my mind to ask if he ever had dealt with racism. Right, right. Racism until this past week. I asked him, I said, Pete, have you ever, have you ever experienced racism? And he shared stories with me from his childhood that were actually extremely traumatizing. And I just had, I had no idea. And that's something that, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to feel guilty about that because that's not productive. But, but for him, I think he's like, well, on one hand he has, he's felt like Australia has been wonderful to him and our church has been inclusive. And he, you know, he, we mentioned it, we recorded a conversation for our Sunday service. And he was saying how, you know, he was this week in a board meeting and like, you know, and so in on one hand, he's just felt like he's had incredible opportunities and so on. But there is also this reality where he has, he has felt real prejudice towards him. And, and so I think for us, you know, like, even if I think about, you know, if I am to mention our history as a nation, you know, we it's all good for us to, to go where we're standing alongside, you know, our American brothers and sisters. But in reality, we have a really dark history ourselves. And so, and so we have to acknowledge that. And, you know, I just, I, I truly believe that this is an awakening and that this is really close to the father's heart. And this is, this is close to God's heart. And as Christians and the church, I don't think that we have the choice, I think that we have to step in into this space and move into action here. Yeah, I think one of the big weaknesses of the church historically and still around the world has been our inability to be in other people's shoes that are different to us. You know, 98% of our country and Europe are not in church, they're quite anti-church, because I think generationally, we have not empathized enough with people different to us. And our approach to them has been with our agenda to teach and to convert and evangelize rather than to listen and to learn. So I think that this awareness that's in the world now is a great opportunity for us to listen and learn. I was talking to, I was talking to a black guy a while back and it's things like, and this is a lot of this is on social media now, as you know, like the stories Peter's told you, that you just can't believe because we are white and privileged and don't see it. So this guy said to me, when it gets, when it gets in the elevator, as a black guy, he always presses the button straight away so that others don't think he's in there lingering to perhaps commit to crime. Yeah. And I heard Bishop Jake speaking the other day on interview with Carl Lentz that when his son had a car crash and the cops were called that Bishop Jake said his main thing was to keep his son, he said, keep me on the phone, keep the phone in your hand, keep me on the phone when the cops arrive, keep me on the phone because he was terrified that his son would get in trouble with white cops. That's the main concern. The car was fine. There were other things that should have mattered more. And as a white person, we wouldn't have been aware of a need to keep our kids on the phone. That's it. Yeah. The biggest danger was the cops, you know. Yeah, it's funny. Well, it's not funny, but like, you know, just hearing stories about even people on our own staff who are my colleagues and, you know, and, you know, they have to share stories about every time they go into a grocery store, they make sure that they print out a receipt just to just to make sure that they're not going to be stopped or, you know, like same sort of thing, like being, you know, like if they walk into an elevator and they see somebody else walk out, and it's those things that, you know, like I, I just, that's not my experience. And so, you know, it's, you're right, like this is, this is a moment where we, I have been, you know, I think if there's been one message that I have been, that I have been preaching for the last couple of years, at least it's, it is empathy. And here I am in a position where it's like, okay, now, now it's time that we put out, we put ourselves in other people's shoes and we truly take that time to seek to understand and, and to listen. I remember being in South Africa a while back, when I was asking Black people to help me understand this race thing from their perspective, and a guy said to me, um, what color are Band-Aids? And I said to him, well, they're flesh color. And he said, what flesh color? And I said, oh, hmm, a good point, they're Caucasian. And he said, especially ridiculous in South Africa, with 60 million population, 40 million of whom are Black, and there's no Band-Aids of their skin color. Then he began to ask me how many Black dollies are there or toys for kids to play with, how many, how many Black superheroes and so on and so on. What kind of shampoo, what kind of, whose, whose hair is the shampoo for in hotels? I didn't even know Black people needed a different shampoo for their hair. It's that, and when you, when you sit and listen to anything, wow, it is a white world in more ways than I ever realized. So I committed, you know, 20 years ago, because our church was predominantly white middle class. We weren't reaching other people in our city that were different to us. We were praying and singing about them, but we weren't reaching them. And when I began to reach into the worst parts of our city, I determined then that I must educate myself of what it's like to be, um, an outsider, to be socioeconomically excluded or skin color, or gender, or lifestyle. Um, and I think the church has been very poor at that. I'm hopeful that out of this pandemic and also the racism consciousness now will come out of it with, with a better result for the church around the world. And I think as you said a moment ago, the intentionality is a massive word right now. If you're not intentional about this and stay intentional after the awareness fades because it will, I think we'll lose a massive opportunity. Lord, tell us, tell us a little bit about what you do and try and explain it to me like I'm a stranger. Okay. What I do? Yes. Okay. Um, so, well, um, I work for my church. Yes. And my husband and I, yep. What do you do for the church? What's your role for the church? So we, with, along with my husband, we are our youth pastors here in Australia, but also globally. Um, we lead young and free, which I say is our, global youth expression of our church. Um, and so for me, that includes, uh, given, giving creative direction, um, vision, um, like prophetic vision. Um, but also, uh, leading our team, um, even, uh, making decisions, uh, key decisions on, uh, our music. Um, and, uh, I guess delivering that. Um, and then, uh, we, I also, uh, I initiated a, a online, um, platform called the secret garden TV, which is, uh, targeted towards young women. Um, and then just, uh, involved in our week to week church services, um, from sisterhood to, um, you know, involved in our, our college, uh, and then also our church services. So how have you guys managed, you know, when, when you, when people work together and live together, there's very little separation between those two worlds. So how have you guys managed to, um, have different identities as it were, different spaces because your work life is your home life and your home life is your work life kind of thing. Cause I think a lot of people have not done that well over the years and still are not. How have you guys managed to balance that? I think when, when Peter and I became, uh, became the youth pastors, um, my dad actually, he said, make sure that you guys do different things. So figure out what you want to do and, and figure out what your strengths are and, uh, and take ownership, um, take ownership there and create those clear roles and those clear differences and make that really clear as well for your team. And so we did that, uh, from, from, from early on, like Peter is very pastoral. He loves young people. He's, uh, he's a great leader. He like, he loves speaking into leadership. Um, and, and so for him, he took on our day-to-day week-to-week runnings of our youth, um, from leading our youth pastors, age group pastors right across Australia and, and being there as a support for our youth pastors on a global level as well at, at our global campuses. Um, and, and for me, I know, like I'm creative. Um, I, you know, I like to think if I can say about myself that I am visionary, um, you know, ideation is, is probably my number one strength. And so I love ideas and I love, um, seeing a gap and seeing a need, need in, in the world, like in society and, and creating, uh, things to that end. Um, and so for me, young and free was pioneered out of that, out of, uh, it didn't exist, but, um, but I saw a gap and I saw a need. I knew my strengths. I knew my giftings and I, I knew that I could do that. So What do you love about what you do in terms of the youth pastoring and leading? What do you love about that and what, don't you like about it? I love, um, well, firstly, I love young people and, um, and that's, that's number one. I think if I was in it to give myself a platform or, you know, like if it was to bring that sense of like self-fulfillment, then I've got it all wrong and, and I know that I wouldn't be effective. And so for me, it has to, it has to be about young people. It has to be about, um, serving them first and foremost. Um, and you know, I'm getting older and I've been in it for a while now. And so it's interesting whenever I feel like, you know, I'm disengaging, uh, within my heart, I, I pray about it and like, God, break my heart, break my heart for young people again. And, and, and every time, every time I'll hear a story, I'll have some sort of encounter where I'm reminded why I do what I do. And so that's number one. Um, and then, sorry, what was the question? I forgot. And I think the frustrations of working with young people, I was going to ask you about that. What are some of the frustrations in your role towards young people? Um, I think there is like, kind of like there is an, even for me, like, I think I would be classed as being a millennial, but on the older, like on the older side of a millennial. And I find that there's even differences between how old I am and where I am and how I see things and, you know, how I have, uh, lived my life and functioned. And even people just a couple of years, a few years younger than I am, there's a bit of a divide there. And, and so for me, like, you know, I often find myself going, well, don't you know what working hard is? Like, I think, like, I just, I think I get, I get frustrated at just that difference, but then at the same time, like, I also learned so much from young people. And I think who are younger than I am. And I think that they are brilliant. They have so much to teach me and people who are older and who have been in the church for a long time. And so, um, yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't, to be honest, like, not much frustrates me about young people. I think they're pretty amazing. What are some of the major challenges that you feel young people are dealing with right now? Is, is there something that, you know, despite nationality or race or gender that you feel are common issues and challenges? Is that a top three or four things that you guys are always feeling you need to be talking to them about? Um, I think, yeah, I think stress is a huge thing for young people, especially when it comes to their study, when it comes to them finding what they want to do, what they're, I'm sorry, my kids are going to leave. I think, um, yeah, so, um, yeah, that's been a huge thing. And I think, especially during this, this pandemic, my heart has gone out for people who are doing their final year or who are just beginning school and so on, because they're, it's like that stress has been accelerate, like a heightened, heightened, um, stress is a big thing. Mental illness is a huge thing. Um, so anxiety, depression. Um, and then I think as well, just, um, yeah, I think, I think that young people, they work in ways that are unconventional. Um, and, but it's, so it's kind of like making that work in a world that is, is changing. Yes. If that makes sense, which I know, I'm, that's something that, um, that I've heard you speak about, but so many, well, I guess for generations, people have been out of the box as such, but we're living in this time where, uh, I think young people are rising up and kind of proving that you don't have to fit into a box, but it, there's still this like element of like proving themselves in that, um, that I think can be quite stressful. I think part of the stress for young people, don't you think, is that, um, the education system seems to lead them to believe that, and the parents often are part of the problem in making them have to get certain qualifications and certain results. And, and what my generation knew is that that was put on us strongly, but my kids and my grandkids, it's a whole new world is that intelligence is a much broader definition now than it was when I was at school, that intelligence is multifaceted, but my generation was, you know, left brain logic. It wasn't at all celebrating right brain creativity. I think the kids neurologically, uh, wired differently to my generation. Um, and the celebrating of that you, you can make a living, you can have a life, um, built around what God made you good at, which doesn't need to be academic kind of thing. I think that message still needs to be loud and clear to kids that you can make a living out of your art or your creativity or your particular form of intelligence and brilliance, but the education system doesn't celebrate lots of that because it's not on the school curriculum, right? That's it. Yeah. You know, I personally, like I remember when I was, uh, as young as kindergarten, uh, and not understanding, just not comprehending what was going on in the classroom and from that moment on, I believed that I wasn't smart and my whole, whole school experience, that was the foundation. That, that was my core belief within myself that I wasn't intelligent and it wasn't until I finished school and I found myself, uh, in the workplace and someone that I realized, well, I, I am intelligent. It just, it just looks differently. Um, and so I, I am a huge advocate for, for that. Yeah. And when you talk about depression and anxiety among young people, what is that normally linked to? Cause my generation would think, well, what have you got to be depressed about in terms of the quality of life these days that the emerging generation have compared to wee baby boomers? And that comes back to that work ethic thing. We worked for everything and many say that a millennial generation have this entitlement thing, which our generation didn't have kind of thing. So what do they tell you the depression is linked to? Is that a common thread? I mean, I think, I think time will tell. Um, I, I think that we are learning about the world that we're living and being a part of the digital age. Um, you know, there's the obvious things that we are all aware of. Um, and so there's the, you know, my daughter, she has a, um, we have a family phone. So she doesn't have a phone, but she, we have a family phone that she had access to it on the weekend. And so she has, she has TikTok, um, which, you know, I, I keep very close to and monitor it for her. But he came in, she came in crying. She's nine years old. She came in crying because she realized all of her friends were hanging out with that without her. And I was like, I was like, you're nine, like you're nine, that you, you're not old enough to have a phone yet and to, to be exposed to this reality that we live with. Um, you know, when I was nine, I didn't, I wouldn't, I didn't know that, you know, if my friends were hanging out with me, I wouldn't have a clue. Um, and so there are things that I think that, um, play into, uh, insecurities into things that are happening here that perhaps were seated when we were young and now it's right in front of us. And there's also, you know, it's changing, but for, for years, there was an actual numeric measure of value, um, on our social media. And so if, you know, obviously like, you know, I pop, you know, I used to think about, am I popular or am I like not as popular as my best friend or so on. And now you hop on Instagram and it literally tells you if you have, if you're more popular than, than another person, or if your content's getting more likes than another person. And all those things, I think play into insecurities. Some people care about that. Other people they couldn't care less. Um, and it, and it looks differently for them. But I just think that this day and age that we're living in where we are just, it's just in front of our face, you know, it's just right there. Um, you know, that's, it's, uh, it's, it's a lot. And I just also think it's like what we're talking about. I think like just being on the go and, um, and, you know, um, being exposed to so much content and so much media and so many things. Um, and forgetting to breathe and forgetting about this beautiful world around us and, uh, you know, all those things, I think definitely have a part to play. Um, um, yeah, yeah. What do you do, Laura, yourself now to develop internally? Are you a reader? Are you a listener? Um, uh, do you journal? Um, what are your personal, some of your personal development things that are go-tos behaviors and habits for you that you kind of feel are non-negotiables for you in your life? Um, oh, that's a good question. I think, I think I'm on a journey of figuring that out. Yeah. Like again, um, I think in the past I have loved to journal, um, I read, but not necessarily like books, um, but I'm always reading, uh, articles and, uh, content and the news and, and so on. Um, and I, I do listen, I am a listener. And so I, I do kind of like to engage in, um, whether it's, um, conversation through podcasts or whatever. Uh, so I'm interested in all of those things, but I think, I think I, I'm still learning how, what really works for me. And, um, I feel a little bit exhausted by all the talking, to be honest, and all the opinions and all the things. Um, and so, and like we, we were just saying, like, I think that, that the pandemic has been good for me just to kind of switch off and just connect a little bit and feel more, I mean, it sounds a little bit cliche, but just feel more connected to what's present. Any big discoveries in the last, do you feel, if that's the right word, um, aha moments about something, about yourself, or about God, or about the church, or about humans, some big, anything you thought, you know, this, yeah, when I journaled that six months ago, that's kept coming back in my mind on a repeat loop. My awareness is taken by that issue, or that concern, um, that can be to, that could be to do with your own breakthrough in your own development, a framing of something, a new belief or habit that you've stepped into with regard to personal health or development or habits of life that are big, that you think now will stay with you for life kind of thing. Yeah, I think, I think there is, uh, for me, I feel like I have got to a point where I have become really self aware, and I know what have been the pitfalls for me in in the past. Um, and so certain things that have maybe triggered, um, things that like a, um, a frat, like fragile form for me, I'm more aware of those things now. Um, which is really, I guess a sense, a feeling of like, just maturing and, and growing past things, um, and not being stuck, not being stuck in old ways of thinking and feeling, but, um, you know, I kind of, the way that I kind of explain it is, um, when my children throw tantrums, uh, they, I, I, I kind of get down on their level and I'm like, you can't, you can't do that anymore. You're, you're growing up, like you're, you're getting older now, like this, like what you're doing, you can't do that, that anymore. And I kind of, I feel like that for myself, like when I start going down old ways of thinking or checking little tantrums to God or whoever to my husband or whatever it may be, I kind of, I feel, I hear my own voice, like you can't, you can't do that anymore. Like we've got to grow past this, we've got to get past this, um, which, which does, you know, feel like a little bit of a, a maturing, um, in that sense. Um, and where was I going with that? I think, um, I'm interested in personal routines that you feel have become non-negotiable because clearly, even just a few years ago, I decided, you know, I decided that I wanted to feel the best that I possibly could. Um, and, um, and so I had to make decisions about how that, how I was going to live my life, what I was going to prioritize, what I was going to eat, like, uh, all of those sorts of things. And, and honestly, that changed my life. It changed my life when I decided to prioritize being my, my best self. Um, um, and, um, yeah, that, that's been very rewarding for me. So then non-negotiable is now for life for you. Some of the personal disciplines, like, is this such a thing as a typical day for you? Not usually. I think like sometimes I can, uh, at the moment, at the moment we've kind of found ourselves in a little bit of a rhythm. Um, it looks different than it did a couple of weeks ago, but I think we're starting to kind of be like, okay, on Thursdays, we, on Mondays, we plan our youth program for Friday nights. On Tuesday, we have, you know, a certain meeting. On Thursday, we're recording for church. On Friday, we're recording for youth. On Sunday, we're watching church now. Um, and so, and my kids are back at school and so there is a little bit more of a routine. Um, but I, this kid, honestly, he's right away now. Um, but, um, you know, in, when, before, before COVID, my life was, um, it looks very different because it would felt like it was, it was like just going from like event to event and it's not a normal way of living. It's, uh, you know, I think just, even just being on a, on a platform in front of, you know, people all the time and, uh, in green rooms and so on. Like that, that was my normal. Um, and do you miss that? I don't at the moment. I think I, I think I will, but I don't at the moment at all. Do you miss traveling? I love traveling. I really do. Um, I'm not missing it right now, but I think, I think I will, I think I will get to the point where I, my parents, my parents actually went to the USA. They got special clearance, clearance to go and the day that they left, I said to Pete, I am so glad that I'm not getting on a plane and heading to the USA right now. Like I was happy to be here. Um, but I think I will get to the point where, um, where I, where I want to travel again. Um, yeah, but, uh, but what I was saying was like in the midst of that abnormal kind of lifestyle, I have had to work out how to create rhythms and, um, and work in disciplines because, you know, you've always got an excuse for like, Oh, well, I don't need to prioritize my fitness because we're at a conference or I can eat bad because it, there's always some reason like, uh, you know, like it's, yeah. So you have to kind of find those disciplines in the midst of an abnormal way of living. Are you, are you a goal setting person? And if so, do you guys talk about we want to be here in five years time, or we don't want to be doing this in five years time, or we want to do less of this? And what do some of those look like? Uh, you know, Peter and I are definitely having conversations about what our lives could look like in the future. There is, there is most certainly a sense of unknown at the moment. And, and I think for a long time we've been okay with that, but I do feel like there is this, like this kind of thing within us that, that is kind of wanting to know what's next for us. And I think for us as well, you know, we're, we're young, but we're not like, we're not super young, you know, we're both in our 30s now. And, and we've both been in youth since we were 12 years old. And so, and so on one hand, we, we love what we do, and we, we don't want to do something, anything else. But then on the other hand, we know that we are also growing older. And so, um, and so we do have, uh, no, I have, I feel like I have long term vision and short term goals. That's kind of how I lived my life. And so, um, I try to kind of be open, be open to what the future, future looks like, but then be very intentional about the immediate future at the same time. How can the listeners find you guys, find what you do Laura, tell me a little bit about how people can track with you. Um, so, uh, for me with the girls, it's thesecretgarden.tv. Um, I am uploading content on that. Um, we are, right now, we have youth programs that are available and we're encouraging youth ministries right across the globe. Perhaps they're not able to, um, gather physically, but also don't have the resources to create content. Um, and so they're welcome to join us. And that's, uh, hilsongyouth.com. Uh, for, uh, young and free with our music and so on, uh, that's available on all, all music platforms. Um, and we have an album that's, that's due to come out in the next month, which is really exciting. Um, and so yeah, and then there's our social media as well. And where can people find and buy your artwork? I'm actually, I'm just practicing at this point, but I, I have had a few people ask and so we'll see. Yeah, you could have a, you could have a gallery opening, perhaps even before COVID is over at the back end of the year, a social distancing viewing of your artwork or a remote one online. We'll see, we'll see. Listen, I want to thank you for your time, Laura, seriously and your attention. You know, I love you guys to bitch you and your family and, uh, celebrate all that you guys are doing. It was lovely to bump into you in Oklahoma a couple of years ago. I'm sending love to you and to Pete and your family. Thanks for your time. I appreciate it. I think our listeners are going to love this interview I have. Great. Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you for taking the time to listen to Paul Scanlon's podcast channel. We just wanted to remind you about the free course that's available to you on the five behaviors of successful people. So go and head over to PaulScanlon.com forward slash free course to sign up for that today. 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