 So welcome everybody from around the world to our monthly Q&A on D-pad adaptation and related topics and As you know last month we had Joanna Macy and before that we had Carolyn Baker Next month we have Debra Zarko, but today Joining us mid-rebellion. It's a summer rebellion with Extinction Rebellion And I believe Gail Bradbrook the co-founder of Extinction Rebellion is on her way back from London now So is in a train station. So Excellent Gail welcome to this Q&A Thank you. It's good to be here. I'm sorry for the train noises. No problem at all. I mean I love this this this format is is fairly informal and it's I also want to use this format to really sort of dive into So things that we kind of maybe talk around the edges of our public lives, but but have limited opportunity to really to really share More more more widely. So it's kind of that that personal side and the emotional side of The climate crisis and what we're choosing to do about it. So I think we're gonna have about 45 minutes together. Is that right? Oh, you're silent there. You're you've muted. Yeah, and I thought by Staying in the train station. I could stay quite close to two o'clock. I've got a train just after two So if we finish at five two, I'll be fine. Brilliant. So what we're gonna do is I'm gonna ask you a few questions For the first half hour and then then I'll ask people to Basically, we'll go to the ones that people have have Shared with Matthew and that we've selected and so we'll then bring other people in as well So Gail You you were speaking in London yesterday And I was wondering what was the key message you really wanted to get across Because you've you've given a whole range of speeches before extinction rebellion is now world famous Not even just in environmental circles So when you were obviously Yeah, you want to get across something really key about now that you've got such a massive audience What what what's your main message you wanted to get across? And it's not totally like that for me. I ought to do more of that. Can you hear me? Okay with the announcement in the background. Yeah, perfectly. Don't worry. They're just They're just a very background noise I'm sure they're not very atmospheric so Before I speak I try and ground myself and I try and pray and Ask for nature to speak through me and I see what happens I do have a few bullet points the main thing that I want to talk to people about the minute is scarcity separation and powerlessness and what it means to not be in that paradigm into shift paradigm into Into a new paradigm of feeling empowered feeling together and understanding that we're living an abundant time So if you come from that perspective, so I often talk about how the power lies in the collective and having a good time together and accepting the fact that there's a Consciousness shift and things like that happening and what that means to personal individuals and then I sort of move on to talk about What I'd like to see in the future strategy as well Okay, so you mentioned three cool key words there Can you say a little bit about what you mean by separation and overcoming separation? Is that quite a deep philosophy for you? Yeah, so even in the early rising up literature we used Charles Eisenstein's analysis of the sort of underpin underlying crisis rather than just keeping it a systemic look at politics and democracy and economics and so on and And Mickey cash tanners added to that the other two words of powerlessness and scarcity mentality And that's how she defines patriarchy, and I think it's a really good framework Okay, so you're quite explicit with people that patriarchy is part of the problem or even perhaps One of the the biggest problems in why we're in a crisis Well, I often think that words are not very helpful like Capitalism patriarchy why it's supremacy? You know, they're sort of trigger words for people aren't they and You're kind of suddenly find yourself on some side of us of a sense. So it's Mickey cash tan. I'm like AI Mickey cash tan that defines patriarchy in that way. I'm just saying that because it jumped up in the chat channel Um But clearly we're in I mean in another paradigm. It's called where Tico, isn't it? It's the sort of disease of our time that we're in so I I don't really mind which words are used But I think that it's better to just talk about what you're talking about rather than using some label that other people Will have me different meaning around Yeah, and so one of the things within that is this scarcity mentality versus abundance and And and I'm wondering because when people hear about the climate emergency the Disruptions that are already happening around the world ruining people's lives making millions Homeless creating refugees, but also the the fears that are spreading as we see the impacts on agriculture Worldwide but also then in the West and therefore how that's going to feed through in the coming years into the affordability and availability of food That doesn't sound like Particularly an abundance worldview. So I was wondering how could how does your philosophy of abundance Relate to that sense that were that biodiversity is collapsing agriculture is under threat And the future might be very different materially at least So it's not in any way to be in denial about the problems and the problems getting worse and one of the things we talk about is Visiting in a new world in which we say that we need to stop harming start repairing the harm and And as part of that there's going to be a lot of us and we need to learn to live with losses and That's you know, that's part of what we're doing is actually facing the losses of these times Another thing that Mickey talks about is it's sorry. I'm finding really annoying with the trains I just hoping you're not that Talks about in terms of patriarchy is that Really good responses to it are tenderness vulnerability and mourning You know tenderness for ourselves Being willing to be vulnerable in these times and morning what we're losing and what we have lost So it's not to go. Oh, you know in some hippie way, it's all abundant. We're in some kind of Shangri-La But but an example I gave to people quite often is when we were hanging out at Marble Arch Playing, you know, some random stranger We're having a chat and somebody else is playing live music and we've knocked up a kitchen in the middle of road and we're cooking some Left over veg that have been sent to us into vegan slop You know how abundant that felt compared to flying to Ibiza and having a burger, you know So there's abundance that comes from love. It comes from connection that comes from togetherness and yeah, sure we can't carry on having fast-fashioned and like lives addicted to consumerism and And and and that's got to go and then in terms of how deep this crisis might go You know if we're fighting over tins of beans like Abundance is not necessarily the word we're going to be wanting to use but the whole point of the rebellion is to start start doing the Mitigations and the adaptations to to those times so that we're in this as little crisis as possible You know, we just have to deny what's coming So yes, yeah, so it's a different kind of abundance And it's basically saying that what we've been lied to about about our culture offering abundance when it just sort of It offers competition and and a rain a load of choice, but without it takes away that original abundance through sharing connection Roy being together all that is that is that's the Completely and it never strikes me any less strongly than around children You know, you have children you have this abundance of shit in your life as a result of having children like presents and Crap and stuff that arrives in too many clothes and but you know loads of books But are new books and we run with penguin today talking about this consumerism, you know It's you don't have enough but I have a feeling of abundance of of being able to be with other parents and children in a really relaxed way You feel absolutely pressured And and and I think the other Significant lack of abundance or the scarcity piece is is is not getting to have a life with purpose Which is my understanding of part of the shift in the teal consciousness is is that you know When you when you live into purpose and in that way, you know You could define the most scarce thing that might happen to me in the next few years is I could get shot Right, I don't mean to sound melodramatic But I'm completely accepting that as a possibility Yeah, and that doesn't feel like it's in you know a life of scarcity that if it gets ended prematurely Living a deep purpose right now is it's thoroughly abundant So discovering living and dying with real meaning Is the greatest abundance that you're experiencing? And I think it goes beyond that if you go back to the indigenous traditions It is something that I've been relearning or remembering is that Lives are seen in the indigenous traditions or some of them in context and the context is that you have ancestors and So on my altar, there's pictures of my you know people that mean something to me who've died You know, they're my ancestors and the people that are Coming after us in the next seven generations. So we're just here for some time. We've got something to do You know Yeah, so you just kind of through recognising death and honouring the dead Your there's a reverence for for the purpose or the meaning of life It's like a way of reflecting on what is most essential about being alive right now There's a reason that capitalism is this absolutely death phobic culture, right? I mean you think about what we do to dead bodies We put them in it gets really bad in the states where you put them in the ground and you fill them with chemicals So that they won't even rock and you put them in in in metal encased areas I mean was so death phobic. You're not even allowed to die properly. I think there's a something Got a name, but a woman recently introduced me to terror management theory. Have you come across that? Yeah, they are that our whole culture and sense of status and is all based on our fear of death. I Don't know if our whole culture is but this idea that You're willing to actually sacrifice your own children before you sacrifice a culture that stops you from looking at death and dying It's that significant. So the examples that have traditionally got Cited and like I think in my own civilizations They chuck their kids from the top of a tower or you know a mom who's celebrating the death of her G had his son who's just blown himself up But I think when I'm with parents who do not want to think about the climate crisis And they're like do you do not get to talk to me about that, you know, I it's like goodness me How Invested a person has to be that they're not willing to look that in the face and they've got children, you know I feel like saying you do know you're chucking your child. I mean, it's too judgmental. I don't say it, right? Child under a pulse, you know, yeah, I mean There's stopping them. Do you think you mean you've been talking to so many people since you not just with rising up But then the last well the for over for years. You've been talking to people about the climate crisis. What's what's stopping people? Waking up and then the next step giving their the rest of their lives to truth and love and Non-separation what what is it holds us back? Penguin today with the senior managers the chief executive, right the publishing house and Was with Donnie P. McCarthy and other colleagues and donica said to them Have you accepted as a climate crisis and where where are you at? And what's clear is You can see it in the grieving cycle You know a lot of people there are some people completely shut down to it or whose lives are way too stressful to even be thinking about it But a lot of people are somewhere in the grief process Whether they're bargaining with things or they're in denial or they're in some anger or they're dipping in and out Hmm, and there was a woman there who said, you know, I've just finished reading the extinction rebellion book and I I had a I felt what you're talking about, you know, I so I don't really particularly focus on people that are Totally shut down. I think what you know, there's not that's not really the role The role is to find those people that are having a wobble and I see them all the time I just it was the same yesterday when we're sort of walking around around the civil disobedience in London It's like you meet people and they are so relieved actually and you honor their relief and say this is a tricky process And they're like thank God and say, you know, be with other people with this process It's it's dissolving. It's transformative. It's it's it's gonna open something up So I think it's much more important to have the conversation with the people that are Teetering on the edge of something and to be encouraging and and and like one of the things I say to people's don't Don't start doing stuff for the rebellion. The first job is to feel this, you know Don't don't rush into action join the rebellion slowly make sure you really connect to the pain of Where we're at and and come at this from a place of It's almost like this Once you really accept how bad things are and you're you're grieving there's a there's a deeper power that you bring Is that what you're seeing? the way I say is that the price of Love is grief, you know, the two things are intimate minutes a roomy roadside inside I know Calls your brand and grief opens our hearts and so we need to be open to to loss and to separation because that's where the stuff of life is and When you love something Courage is what comes off the back of that, you know, and I mean, this is I think this is a Western democracy issue I don't think every other culture is like this, but this is the work. It feels like we have to do Yeah Rebellion is the grieving process. Yeah, of course that that's quite a I mean For people who know about wisdom traditions spiritual traditions people who know about the the heart of Activism over centuries and the scholarship on that would this wouldn't be news but a lot of people today particularly in the environmental movement bang on about how we must stay positive and give people hope of of Making a small difference themselves to Ultimately a bigger shift and saving this world as we know it you come across those views of course and I think we've kind of Start to put them to bed really haven't we I mean Rogers original paper was tell the truth and ask people to act accordingly and He he wrote the first talk in my opinion the science and the massive it was bit ropey And it didn't have this grief piece in it, but it was good start and then I came across Jane Morton's work on emergency mode messaging and it was like the penny drops part of what you have to do is also hold a vision That change is possible and this is not to pretend to people that it's all gonna be cool or anything Sorry, is that microphone better for people by the way, I got a message to say was popping so Yeah, it's very good as it is now. Yeah, so So you got distracted Morton Yeah, and the and the grieving process so I think yeah, I think we're done with that kind of idea that we can just give people bits of hope I did a Thing on leadership in the last few months and the guy interviewed me just kept going back to the hope thing And I was just like you really have to get over this hope business. I love Derek Jensen who's a deep green activist who calls it hope him because it is just this thing that Hopefully I mean my hopefully even as an environmental activist with I mean, it's an awful hope this and I did name it from the stage yesterday Hopefully this is gonna happen And this is like a really conscious thought right if I if I look into where my brain was at Hopefully this is gonna happen to somebody else somewhere else at some of the time. What you're really talking about there is racism, right? It's just like won't be my kids. They'll they'll be alright. No be some brown kids somewhere Terrible right? I mean that's where we've been with our hope. That's what it actually means Yeah, you're right because because people talking about criticizing me and my work for not for taking away people's hope It's also ignoring the fact that what the UN said for example last week that Environmental disasters are a weekly if not more regular occurrence around the world already and millions of people are already starving or displaced because of climate impacts already so Yeah, exactly. I just saw the word despair jump up in the chat channel. I'm not gonna try and keep On the words because I can't really and concentrate but um, I can't remember who told me this but Charles Eisenstein recently said Every initiation has a moment of abject despair You know, so this is not like you're not supposed to sit in that when we're saying like don't get hopeful We're not talking about sitting in abject despair forever more We're just saying that's that can be part of the process, you know the empty and out the kind of you know There's nothing left to cling on to and when you like listen to the Prophecies, you know what the Kogi people are saying about it's done between 2024 and 2026 It's you know, the deal sealed and I don't know if that's true, you know, but I think take that source as much as anything You never seem to hear from any leaders that That of a spiritual bent that go it's definitely going to be okay or it's definitely going to be bad and and the way I take that is It really is down to us, you know, and and it's better It's like that because whenever we think hopefully somebody else is going to sort it out or hopefully it's not as bad as we think We're just handing over something and That I won't say if my chart if I saw my kid in the middle of the road and the bus coming I wouldn't sit there hoping they'd be all right. Would I just run like fuck to try and knock them out of the way Yeah, I mean, this is the criticism of hope that it somehow In in normal parlance. It kind of means a passive wish for a better future that you're not really Yeah, gauge you and also that it makes you focus on how less how shit things are right now because you're hoping that it will somehow be better later You mentioned So then active hope obviously Joe animation is right hope comes from being active But I think the other piece of it and so hold your threads because I'm sure it's more interesting what I'm about to say But I think at the heart of this for me is absolute freedom You know, isn't customary recently on panels with people and I feel like saying to them Have you not noticed it's all fucking changed. We can do what we want, you know We can talk how we want you can be an academic and you can just go I'm gonna publish this paper anyway You know you can say because I've been trying to maintain a previous life and start a new life And you've got to just jump in the boat and go right fuck it. I'm doing this new thing Yeah, you mean it's sort of like society more and more people are experiencing their own fuck it moment So it's kind of like a collective fuck it Yeah, I when I talk to people I and they say all that extinction rebellion looks like a good idea and I say, yeah, so how are you rebelling in your everyday life? How many compromises are you making with your career with your boss or all that? Why not just say fuck it? This is more important than anything so, um I mean sometimes there's a degree of privilege in that isn't there, but you know, it's some of us have either psychologically more Of a sense of being backed up and that we're not going to fall into a financial hole and so on and so on But I mean mostly though, um, you get we are really desperate for good people in extinction rebellion And there's loads of money wants to come into the system and there's loads of jobs He's doing there's some systems of processes that need to be tightened up to make that flow well, but um I think that's part of what's going to happen is is there will be more I just want to guarantee people a career or anything or even a manageable amount of money But if someone just sort of steps off and says right, I'm doing this now, um Well, look, I tell you what I I am increasingly, um, believing in, um, my experience of You know that you know in the hippies go like oh the universal sort it out for me And I'm just handing over to the universe and what they're really trying to do is, you know start You know being a yoga teacher and hope that that's going to pay the mortgage or whatever I mean they're saying that but I I think there's a version of teleology I know what you placed today. I feel there's a little edge of it in the room. Sorry folks, but anyway, um I know the like the experience I've had of Teleology of like being in dialogue with like an inherent purpose in the universe is if you're like genuinely saying I'm in service. What do you need from me? I'm willing to do whatever it takes And uh, here I am, you know, like whatever cost Comes with it. I'm here. I tell the universe my kids aren't part of the deal You know, but um here I I'm willing to die if you if you whatever so be it, you know service and then Like things just line up. I can't explain, you know, things are lining up. I I think uh, there's a sort of trust piece Of trusting that there is something that holds us and wants us to because we're supporting life Right, I mean life wants to live. Yeah, so you mentioned earlier gail I just want to bring back you back to something before we hand over to the other people We've got around 50 people. I think in on on this call now, so I'm going to start I'm going to ask questions, but earlier you said that a big part of extinction rebellion for you I think you said is how people can come together in a different spirit And it's the kind of way that people are coming together is what we need given the The problems we've got that are that are coming our way, whatever we do So it's that it's that broader adaptation piece And as you know, it's it's where I'm at with the deep adaptation agenda, which is Providing us to start talking about how we can help each other with what's coming No matter how much we mitigate or draw down carbon Absolutely The way I talk about that is prefiguration of the new society, you know So it has to be a lot of more direct democracy. We have to have confidence In our ability to make decisions together So as much as we know the adaptation agendas about food security and you know health systems and education Whatever whatever ultimately it's about proper functioning democracy and being able to work together, right? So Our self-organizing system and it's like we're just like kids learning at the minute how to do that But we have got really good guidance like Frederick Manlou and again Mickey Cash Tam Is is to me is the foundation of an adaptive new society of grassroots democracy and um It's what you'd call the constructive program and by the way, I mean I'm with with we're in a strategy process So it's not all nailed, but I guess part of me feels like you know with the evolution with purpose of A teal organization, which is my intention for extinction rebellion The I do hope it moves more strongly in the direction of adaptation once we've done as much as we can with a civil disobedience and So um, and it's all drafted. But just so you know where I'm at There's a kind of timeline where we move into the adaptation agenda within sort of 18 months in a more strong, you know in a stronger way Right, I can't imagine myself rebelling forever more. It's just sort of at some point I want to be in my community like Living and so some of that adaptation would be Yeah, some of that adaptation would be what the local groups would be doing for their own resilience and their own ways of being together With less resources with more disruption I mean that's already happening. You've got groups I mean the strow group for examples looking at food security, but I do encourage people to do it under a different label Because I think that it can be a little bit part of the kind of connective denial thing Is she you kind of go into comfort zone and say let's start a community garden Or you know, let's have this Trying by a woodland together or something and the transition movement's been doing that for years And it's strong and shroud, you know, and it's all cool, but I just don't want us to get into mission creed In excite, you know, somebody wanted to start a tree planting thing. It's like If if a group wants to get Into our regenerative culture and go off for a weekend and plant trees to feel cool and enjoy themselves That's all good with me. But if we focus on tree planting when you've got Awesome organizations like tree sisters and so on then we're just mission creeping. So yeah So given the fact that you're you're about System change you're about this has to be done at least at national level if not an internationally Urgently and be the organizing principle of any society political system or economy How are you bringing the adaptation message in that because at the moment it's very much the mitigation is is the narrative During the when you're talking to the media is there going to be a bit more about adaptation? You talked about 18 months time So it's not going to be in this summer or this autumn that you talk I mean, it's you know, I'm no media and comms expert, right? But I mean if when I did the base like committee I was talking about What you'd said around power stations. I did mention the adaptation agenda there It depends how long you've got on any given platform, right? Because Ultimately, as I said the first adaptation is is is us being in good relationship to each other and having a Good conversation. So that's the first baseline of it and then You know what we're going to do a nuclear power stations and food systems and so on I did I did message that stuff And I think really essentially that's part of tell the truth, right? I mean The original demand was tell the truth and And then and that means then working with individuals and communities and organizations to respond to that truth And that to me was always including the adaptation agenda, you know, it's never just like Oh, it's always fine because the solar panels or something Great. So I'm just gay. What I'm going to do is I'll ask you another couple of questions But then hand it over to others. So Matthew if you look in your telegram, you'll see which questions I'm prioritizing. I see you haven't haven't seen my messages in telegram. So gail. I want to take it a little bit more personal in terms of um, I know you don't want to focus on you and And at the same time, you're a very good communicator And I was wondering, um, what do your friends and those who know you say they think is key to why you're being so Um, either woke courageous reckless or stupid What's what's unleashed you what's what's that? Do you know what I'd say that I was in a meeting today with roger annum as well and I can feel something really Strong in both of us that feels quite and I you know at the risk of sounding really weird and messianic or something You just have to honor what's here um, and and my sort of like psychedelic experiences and ceremonial experiences about praying for guidance and embodiment of some something else to be to be in the box and like I What I personally do is work with a therapist who's also a medicine practitioner To just keep a check on stuff, you know, so it's like when does it move from You know, is it like my dad was a coal miner so like being like in quotes a leader is not something that's baked into my sort of Hardwired into my brain as that's what I'm supposed to do in my life Although I did always have that feeling that this was going to happen. It's like this is not a surprise to me So I I'm not answering really from friends point of view. I just say to friends Just make sure I don't become too big a dick and I often say from the platform don't make any of this special so like being a spokesperson or Trying to offer some leadership is not the same thing has become inseparated and special is it? It's just like Here's what it seems to look like right now And you can be sovereign in a particular aspect of your life But you know when the solar power people are doing getting the Panels together to power the boat or the music from the boat or the people are organized. They're they're suffering and bowed out I mean literally Recently got on my knees and bowed down to two of the women in extinction rebellion at their knees because I think We have to like honor each other's gifts and what we bring and not Do you know what you mean? And there's a place I think I've seen something of the rising feminine mention of the chat channel as well And there's something for me that's not I was you know with polyhiggins and clergy bar Probably I don't know coming up for a year ago and it's like there's some place where we just can't get separated as As women leaders it's in particular the sisterhood is such a big part of this for me and it's not Yes encouraging each other and yeah On that one. I think I'll uh invite um christine who has a question for you on on that topic So matthew if you could unmute christine And then we'll hear from from And also christine say where you're where you're based so we get a sense of where people are calling in from Great, can you hear me? Yes Okay, uh christian is is how you pronounce my name Yeah, hello. I'm calling from boulder colorado actually um And thank you so much for organizing this and being here gale. You're a tremendous Role model and force of inspiration for us And I've watched you speak You know, I just everything I can find of yours And when I find you most It's when you're talking about Things that you call the feminine and you're referencing a beautiful number of christians Sorry, I'm just gonna ask gale to mute uh because it's very noisy behind so I couldn't hear you then Can you continue? Yeah, yeah, I just find you most inspiring when you talk about this thing that you call the feminine and you Attribute it, you know, you say that feminine as most of us are have been taught to do and perhaps is accurate you attribute that Feminine to an elemental force and it's something that we all have access to and is in all of us and yet. I wonder Um, especially after what you just said about sisterhood Um, is there even though it's very unpopular to talk about these days and most in the united states perhaps Um that there is a sexed Capacity or even a gendered capacity. I'm wondering if you feel gale that there is a particular Role that women females must play and if so, is that because we're endowed with particular capacities I don't want to get this even more bifurcated and and triggering to folks But but is there a role that women play in particular in this movement at this time in in the way that adaptation Is just as important as mitigation. Thank you for the question christiana. I'll stop you there so that we can hear from gale Yeah, it's a it's a good question and um I I guess yeah, I for sure think that Everybody has a feminine side out if you consider myself quite a masculine woman I've been on a journey myself of finding my own femininity as part of a moon circle Where we meet every full moon or pretty much every full moon and we have done for years and so on and around a fire held in a sacred way and We actually group of us took that over and we have a very um sort of genderqueer friendly approach to that by the way, but um I guess my understanding of the rise in feminine is it's the things around intuition there around the emotion is good to express um around connection and I suppose in the society that we're living the pressures on on on let's say men or male body to people people have been raised as men To close them those parts of themselves down, you know and uh It may it may be that people with female bodies have have more access to that But I I don't know, you know, I know there's evolution with biologists is talking about sex differences, but um I just sort of think we are where we are aren't we we've got to move forwards in our evolution and um So it's less about Trying to say this put the you know, nobody wants to get into a situation of saying women are the ones that are going to sort It's out. Although apparently the dung alarm. I did say that I think that it's going to come from western women. Um Yeah, I'm not sure I have more to say on it than that that um, I don't want to get I'm really not ever into wanting to do anything that polarizes us and And makes people feel like oh, it's not my thing because I'm a man You know, I mean on honor the brotherhood and the masculine and it's the the role and and and there's healing that men need to To do and want to be in total support of that Would you say it's about rebalancing the masculine and feminine in ourselves, but also in collectively and in culture Although yeah, yes, I would gem and you'll have more eco warrior feminists wetting themselves for your few saying that Are you referring to my rebellion speech? Yeah, I didn't I didn't take any hallucinogenic hallucinogenics But I didn't wake up that morning with the words mother earth says me too in my head So I don't know where that came from but it it's it just it's like I had to frame it that way and uh Yeah, so um, yeah for me. It's certainly uh something the the idea of how we've oppressed the feminine in general But also the idea of the divine feminine is Something I don't really know anything about but I feel compelled to learn about and to support somehow in in my own work on climate and I mean, these are just You know frameworks that give us some clues on the direction of travel, you know, I don't think you get too attached to any of them, you know like healthy masculinity what that looks like I mean there's a Verge of toxic femininity that's quite backstabbing and disempowered and faffs about I think, you know, it's not too Sort of over egg the women put in, you know, we're the front line of mothers, you know front line of passing on the patriarchy Absolutely patriarchy is co-constructed and obviously parenting is a key part of that, isn't it? So, uh, I often I hear that when I criticize patriarchy people think I'm slagging off men and and actually it's it's not quite that at all So, um, we've got a question from john, um, and mathy if you could call in in in in john Oh, hi You guys can hear me now Yeah, yeah, i'm john. I'm from boston mass in, um Involved in organizing xr. I'm doing outreach talking to a lot of people at events A lot of conversations Cambridge cambridge mass is a very, um concentrated Uh liberal hub lots of progressives and so-called liberal thinking Harvard university, um, maybe not so much but um I talked to a lot of people when I try to talk to them about this issue I get I get a I get a a wall pretty quickly on attitude of Hey, we we got this. We're the good guys. We know what's going on. You don't need to convince us We're doing everything already And um, I'm just wondering like if there's some strategies of how to how to reach that that mindset Can you say more about what it is? I think they're doing that's useful. Well, they don't I don't know that they're well, they you know, they're They're doing the traditional activist thing. They're Writing letters to the editor. They're talking to their representatives. They're Doing petitions. They're doing marches They're, you know, they've all got solar panels and and fluorescent light bulbs I guess I guess I'd ask them what their theory of change is I've got a talk online called how things change and look at various theories of change and The one that talks about, you know, obviously one that says consume differently And there's another one that says, you know, we're operate within the current political paradigm Um, I do I I guess wonder what they're doing differently That that that's not been done for the last 30 years where it hasn't worked. I mean, you know, the green movements fails, right? I think the first IPCC meeting was like 30 years ago and carbon emissions have gone up by 60 so Not a good record I'm gonna get the other thing I get is is Oh, you don't need to be talking to us. You need to be talking to people in red states You need to be talking to the trumpers, you know, those people Well, if you if you're if you're trying to change society, then I either you need to be talking to them or Uh, you need to be clear why you don't need to talk to them. That's about having a good theory of change, isn't it? Yeah, we'll put your speech link at the other Description of the the youtube video for the we upload of this one as well So John, I'm hearing some frustration there and it reminds me of when Corbin first got elected as leader of the Labour Party in the UK and all my so-called progressive friends in In London were like, oh dear. What have we done? And uh, wouldn't think twice about it. Um And uh, I I got involved and Because yeah, I wanted to to help promote a very different way of politics talking about values and so on and we can debate about How well that's gone or not? But um, but yeah, there's a lot of complacency for people who already have a Sort of predefined sense of I'm a I'm a good person. I'm doing good in the world I'm doing what I can and everyone else is just not being pragmatic And at some point, um, you just have to go with your own truth. Um, and It can be awkward. I've written a blog just recently called don't police our emotions, which is all about about How people quibble and criticize about, you know, upsetting people and I realize in the end I just have to accept that that's going to happen They're both people who don't know me and close friends They're going to slag me off or they're just not going to connect with my world and I somehow have to Just live with it and just make sure I'm focusing on what's uh, what's my truth and what's the best way of engaging other people Just and I suppose you're giving people time to come on board when they're ready Um, people have to go through an emotional spin cycle to be able to really to join in meaningfully I think that's also what gail was you were saying earlier. Uh, we have a question from madis um about activists radical activism Working with other radical activists. Where are you from madis? Hi? Hi. Uh, I'm from estonia And uh, yeah as terrick jensen was already mentioned I was wondering what is your view on on this underground resistance in the grand scheme of things? So are you expecting this to somehow emerge in parallel with xr? Or are you hoping for this not to emerge? Um, I'm personally all for it, you know, if we're talking about the same thing if you're talking about Um, a group of people that are going to go to a fracking we can break it Undercover a night great, you know, but I actually I'm not sure I'm going to know about it Because if they're any good they're going to have a good security culture and they're going to be keeping it quiet, right? So um We've got a I mean, I think the overall theory of change is that I'm working to is that what you call above the ground um mass participation Peaceful civil civil disobedience and I I think that's the thing that's going to see the main change but in terms of Stopping the stuff that's happening right now totally, you know my perspective yeah, so um Um, we've got a question from from susan And I think it's probably susan has put questions that matthew selected But also then has put one in the chat about the military so susan you could Just just one of the the four questions I think I've seen from you and also mentioned where you're from So just pick one of the questions, please susan because we we've only got 10 minutes left and I need to wrap up as well Okay, um I'm susan and I'm Current I'm currently living in exile in the outback of west virginia united states. I'm actually a californian um And the thing about the military is, you know, we we point fingers at governments and Corporations and nobody says a word about the military Which is the greatest consumer of fossil fuels and the greatest emitter Out there not to mention all the other kinds of pollution like the noise pollution Disrupting the whales migration patterns and all that good stuff and nobody's willing to go up against them They just don't seem to be vulnerable to the usual activist tactics It's it's that that can I just say that's not true in the uk so uh, I mean it's not As big as it needs to be but some of our elders in the uk are amazing peace activists in fact, roger ham's a peace activist back in the day um the people that disabled the hawk jets are still in our movement and um Uh, I've been talking to I love Kathy Kelly. Yeah, I'm she's Elsa and others, you know, so uh, quakers But um, I yeah, I've been talking to a few peace activists about We need a group called xr peace that's um, got that focus what what what um What happens this september in the uk is there's a thing called dicey, which is um An international arms fair that comes to london and comes every two years and they closed it down two years ago I mean really see it significantly ongoing lock-ons and so on um, I'd like to see extinction rebellion Really getting involved in that and the peace movement joining us on the streets in october october 7th When we're going to be getting back in the streets in the uk So I think those links are really clear. I mean they're clear in terms like in the again I'm just kind of very uk perspective here, sorry, but you know, there's an ongoing Outrage of the idea that we're going to spend some like 250 billion on trident You know a nuclear weapon that would Intention as you never use it And the cut and as you say the carbon footprint of the military is outrageous So one of our peace activists have put um at least put together on that piece, but it needs to be elevated We've talked about having Solidarity actions at various embassies and so on i'm completely with you and in agreement and it to me it's um Where extinction rebellion needs to move next it's part of the discussion part of the strategy Hopefully going forward is is is in the movement of movements and within that we do need to acknowledge. There are differences, right? I mean many peace activists in the uk of absolutely anti nuclear Uh, and there are some environmentalists that think nuclear power is a good idea, you know So we we try not to have like we're not taking a position on a particular thing Because we want to be a broad church and it's up for groups to make a case as long as they're not trying to co-op the movement So gail, sorry. Thanks susan. Um I'm wondering um You've obviously doing things all around the world And things happening at the moment, but there's going to be a big mobilization in the autumn again um And I was wondering if it works. I mean if the it's interesting because people get excited about extinction rebellion But they sometimes overlook the actual tactics and and it and and it's that it is a rebellion It's about peaceful civil disobedience to create so many arrests that government loses legitimacy uh, it's a force This to the top of the agenda and to even bring down a government now Some people say that that's naive. Some people say that that's that's just hubris or whatever I was wondering What happens this autumn if you get hundreds of thousands of people in out in in a particular country And many thousands of arrests and a government does seem to lose control or legitimacy Maybe in britain. Maybe somewhere else. What will xr do? What will you do? Jimmy, what would you do like sort of politically? Um, yeah, that's that's why we have um A political strategy team and we think about that in advance and so obviously, you know One of our third demands focused on a citizens assembly Uh One of the things that that team are doing is drafting bills and there's there's a conversation last night about even drafting the budget You know, what would a genuinely emergency budget look like? um but I think in terms of uh An actual sort of collapse in a government type of situation I don't think we've done the strategizing around that for the minute. So, yeah, okay It doesn't mean that won't be thought about. I mean I think you just have to have to do some scenario planning. Uh, there's active conversations across the political spectrum and I think To I mean just you know off the top of my head and I'm not a political strategist It seems to me that you'd want to be having a conversation with the all the different political parties about how You can have a new constitution in the uk in a new form of democracy. That's actually fit for purpose I don't even think we've got democracy. You know, I think we've got a corporatocracy at at the minute and um It's very very captured anywhere. Certainly if there's a video of me online and I'm going to post this one It's called how to fake a democracy and I'm sort of me and george barter and others are faking orgasms outside As a parliament with 15 different ways to fake a democracy, you know How democracies get captured? I also think we've got more I know what do I do to find that online? So what have you worried that activism might actually backfire uh, or be hijacked and If you do worry about it What are you doing to prevent it backfiring or being hijacked by people who don't share the the values the beautiful philosophy You've described now if you could bring your microphone to your mouth just as you were earlier It helps with the background noise. Yeah, so um, we have a policy of you know to stop co-option And it's about the movement dna the principles and values and strengthening how well we teach and share that these are all key concerns um to to to try and avoid Things being hijacked and I think there also has to be like a non-attachment here You know Because it's back to that hope thing again somehow, you know like not careful You sort of you know going to sort of white savior mode as they talk about you know, and I'm going to rescue the work I mean I don't know like I said earlier be in service to something bigger than yourself and see what happens No, and one of our principles and values is debriefing and reflecting You know, what did we get wrong? You know, maybe this movement will collapse by the end of the year and Some are else and learn from it and I don't know, you know, I just think we have to do our best and um Like again mitigate for some obvious things that you can see in the literature happens like Co-option and you know the question that you just asked before this is the one of consolidation You know tim g wrote a book Called counter power and it's the four seas of change and one of the things that movements Make a mistake around gene chart which talks about this is not being ready to consolidate their games No, not being ready to to say okay. We've got here so therefore this so that's why we do have a political strategy team, but Um, you know, it probably needs to do some more thinking. It's also why you pause I see the philosophy of taking some time out to Get your feet and your fingers back in the soil and and and just reconnect and and reassess and and make sure that you're not Just being driven by the momentum Seems to be quite a big That's one of our principles and values is to have a regenerative culture I'm not saying we always honor that but you know, we start with check-ins and We have a land-based regenerative team and just met somebody spent a month on a farm regenerating there's no point has become in burnout and so doing the inner work and Tackling the oppressions between us and holding Our actions in a really good regenerative way and connecting to nature. They're all part of our regenerative culture that we say we need and You know, so if like I dance my pants off a glass around such a good time I didn't think that was time off from activism. I thought that was like part of it, you know that actually because it was with Kevin Anderson and Andrew Sims, sorry name dropping here. That's a professor of climate science and And somebody who runs a rapid transition alliance and the rebellion were all and all happened to be in the same disco in in custom, but it was a wonderful moment Dancing our socks off. That's not, you know, it's not like time off even in a way. Do you see what I mean? It's just Living in these times requires all of that stuff Brilliant gal. Thanks for that. I look forward to seeing you on the street or in a field or on a dance floor in the coming months Thank you for joining us And thank you everybody else for joining us for this call If you're interested in seeing the recording and sharing it with friends and colleagues Then just go to deepadaptation.info and it's top right the youtube channel I think Matthew will probably get it up by tomorrow. Thanks gal Safe travels. Thank you. Thanks. Lots of love to everybody. Bye. Bye