 Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean, a popular resistance broadcast of hot news out of the region. In partnership with Black Alliance for Peace, Haiti, America's team, Code Pink, Common Frontiers, Council on Hemispheric Affairs, Friends of Latin America, Interreligious Task Force on Central America, Massachusetts Peace Action, and Task Force on the Americas, we broadcast Thursdays at 4.30 p.m. Pacific, 7.30 p.m. Eastern, right here on YouTube Live, including channels for the ConvoCouch, Popular Resistance and Code Pink. Post-broadcast recordings can be found at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Telegram, radindymedia.com, and now under podcasts at popularresistance.org. Today's episode, Alex Sob, three years a kidnapped diplomat, and I'm happy to have as our guest today, so many of you know her, especially those of you watching on the ConvoCouch channel, Fiorella Isabel. She has just returned from Venezuela, where she attended a lawfare forum, specifically focused on what has been happening with diplomat Alex Sob for the past three years. And for some of you in the audience, I will just, you may remember we have done a couple episodes regarding Alex Sob. I will post the links to those episodes in the program notes because they will give you some early background information on the case. But before I ask Fiorella to join the conversation, let me just give all of you a quick update and background before we start our conversation. So what I'm gonna share with you is the introduction to an article written by our good friend Francisco Dominguez. And I wanna share his comments with you. As he says, this case is a terrifying example of the United States continuing commitment to illegal unilateral intervention and regime change where no country is truly safe. On June 12, 2023, we celebrated or recognized the third anniversary of the illegal kidnapping and imprisonment by the United States of Alex Sob. Because the brutality and cruelty of the US blockade was wreaking havoc on the economy and millions of the most vulnerable in Venezuela were being deliberately denied their human rights to the most basic necessities of daily life. President Nicolás Maduro tasked Sob with traveling around the world, procuring food, medicines and fuel for his country, Venezuela. Breaking every treaty, protocol, law and norm of international diplomacy, the United States plotted to have Alex Sob arrested while in transit to Iran to fulfill his diplomatic mission by pressing the Cape Verde government to illegally arrest him on June 12, 2020. The plane Sob was traveling on was denied refueling in Morocco and Senegal, thus being forced to land in Cape Verde. In his book, Never Give an Inch, published in 2023, Donald Trump's Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, admits as much saying, quote, no other nation has the global reach to interrupt an Iran-Venezuela plot in real time and convince a small island nation to hold a wanted man. And then there's a full legal saga that ensued after that. An extradition to the United States, Alex Sob is currently being held in Miami prison. He has no access to healthcare. He is not allowed to see family. He is only allowed to see legal counsel. And it just goes on and on from there. It's a pretty heinous story and it's a hugely important story regarding the extrajudicial reach of the United States. And so with that, I wanna ask Fiorella to join our conversation and share with us. You know, she was last week in Caracas for a lawfare forum and this is such a, the Alex Sob case is significant lawfare. I mean, we've seen a lot of lawfare throughout the hemisphere and preventing candidates for running from office or removing them from law space. But this is just a clear violation of international law, diplomatic law and on and on that's atrocious. Yeah, it absolutely isn't. I don't think it's gotten the attention on at the United States on the Western level that it deserves as a case of lawfare, which is why it was important that so many people came from different parts of the world, particularly Latin America and some of us from the United States of America where we were able to come together to speak on different aspects. My panel was on media and how the media has contributed of course, how they've been framing this case against Alex Sob. They've been framing him as a criminal, as corrupt. This is of course classic as to how they did it. And I'll just start off by saying the guests for all international and also national guests that were in Caracas. And Dan, our Parma, Dan was there in Cavalic and he talked about it from a law perspective and there were other lawyers and other people, there were activists who have been on the ground for the free Alex Sob movement. And there were journalists as well as people who have been following the case throughout the its entire process. As Terry mentioned, she's covered this before. This is now a case that has been ongoing for I believe, is it two years? He was arrested June 12th, 2020. Yeah. 2020, yes, so three years now. Yes. I forget it. So three years. 2023 now. Yeah. I know, I forget you. The last few years have been like, oh, just blur. But yeah. So unfortunately, three years since he hasn't seen his children in the same as a freak man, it's been a time away from his spouse. He's a human being and this is one of the things that I think a lot of the event was also wanting to point out. This isn't just a figure, this is a human being. But I do want to say that what was primarily discussed was the case of lawfare against Alex Sob. And what that is, is just using this idea that there is some sort of corruption associated with him to basically rid him out of any judicial fair process that somebody would normally have and to justify his detainment. And that's putting it nicely. I mean, some people say he was kidnapped. And I'm gonna start off by talking about the fact that he was detained twice by first by Donald Trump and then by Joe Biden. And I start off by talking about that because I do think it's important that this is a case that is setting a precedent for how the United States acts as this arbiter of who is a valid diplomat, who is a valid president, who is a valid leader under this idea that they are the ones in charge and they are the ones that dictate the sovereignty of these nations. And so we've been seeing a lot of pushback against that of course on the world stage when it comes to BRICS, when it comes to the new push for a multi-polar world, we're seeing what's happening in Africa, in the Middle East and the reemergence of cooperation between states that were once enemies like Saudi Arabia and Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria. And then of course, Latin America, we're seeing a push away from the dollar and a push towards building, but in some countries and in some economies, something that is more in cooperative within the nations in South America and Central America. Of course, this is something that's going to be difficult. This is something that isn't just gonna happen overnight, but we do recognize we've been seeing this push. Now, in terms of what that has to do with Alec Saab, the Alec Saab case isn't just a persecution of a political dissident, it very much is. I mean, Alec Saab was at worst. I believe at worst, somebody that was trying to provide food and medication to a sanctioned country. And if anybody, you know, Terry, you know what you have an understanding of what people went through in Venezuela and just going there and hearing the stories of people and friends that have been there and have survived these different decades and these different times that have been difficult in their own right, depending on the situation for Venezuela really tells you another picture as to how critical it was in the moments where Saab was trying to deliver these things and also oil, where they almost ran out of petrol and Saab was instrumental. He is seen as a hero by the many people in Venezuela for fighting to basically get them needs. Now, the United States, of course, and the media have painted him as a corrupt individual, a political drug dealer of sorts, I've even heard of Venezuela and the Maduro dictatorship. These are the things that have been said about Saab. They cover him as somebody that has done something wrong when in reality, even if he had, he was a diplomat. And that's the thing here that where the law fair case comes in because a diplomat by international law is not supposed to be arrested. He was arrested with a diplomatic passport. He was a diplomat. And that brings me to the other facet of this is, again, that the United States not recognizing Maduro as president of Venezuela is the reason they're using to say Alex Saab was not a diplomat because Maduro wasn't the president that the United States recognized. Therefore, the United States didn't recognize Saab as a diplomat so he could be arrested. And this is what we're talking about here. These are the same excuses. And this was pointed out of corruption, of whatever sort of stripping people of their credentials that has been used on people like Christina Kirchner in Argentina. And you could talk about Pedro Castillo and how he has been imprisoned with no charges that have actually been applied against him. You could talk about also what was mentioned is the case, the persecution of other dissidents in general, I mentioned Julian Assange in the United States, how it wasn't really about him committing a crime against the United States because he was just a publisher but it was about what it exposed. So it was a political persecution. And that's kind of what is involved in the lawfare case. That's kind of what we got to hear from various people in various parts of the world. They also talked about regime change operations led by the United States and the West and how political dissidents whether they be politicians or supporters have been pushed out via these regime changes and interventions. I also mentioned how the United States tried to decide that Juan Guaido was the leader of Venezuela and then how Alexi Navalny was a potential opponent to Vladimir Putin because they simply decided it to be not because the people of the sovereign countries decided it, but because they did. So all of these cases really present this case of lawfare against Solid Sam in terms of the fact that he is merely a victim of the US trying to create this precedent where not even a diplomat is safe if they are enough of a threat or perceived as some sort of threat to the State Department and the establishment. And that really encompasses so many of us whether you're an activist, a civilian citizen, a dissident, whether you're a journalist or a political diplomat, you are no longer safe. So one of the things that was said there was if, you know, we are all like sob, this is something I've heard with Julian Assange. We are all these dissidents that are being persecuted for political reasons and political manipulations. You know, what's really horrifying to me and I think the case of Julian Assange and the threat of him being extradited to the United States, he's an Australian citizen. He's not a US citizen, but the US is attempting to have him extradited to the United States and have him stand trial in the US. And it was same and Alex saw the US did successfully have him extradited to the United States. He is Colombian, Colombian with Venezuelan residency or Colombian national or dual residency, but he was extradited and is now sitting in a US prison in Miami. And so it's, I mean, you really see in both those cases and many others, but in those two specifically because they're so high profile in the Alex sub, not quite as high profile as Julian Assange, which we are attempting to lift his story here in this episode, but they're, you know, the US judicial system is, has declared itself the world's judicial system. Yeah, and that is just really horrifying. And so it doesn't matter if you're a US citizen or not, you can still be found guilty in a US court and brought it. Yeah, it's really, I don't think people in the global North really understand that. Maybe in Europe, they understand the Julian Assange case so clearly that way, but I don't think those of us in North America really get that extra judicial reach is. The US has to determine itself to be not just the world's police with his military, but the world's court system as well. And on the background of that Terry, I just wanna say, also there's been a rise in detentions of journalists. Recently journalists, British journalist Vanessa Bealy was detained over her journalism on Syria and her journalism in general, which is completely in opposition of course to the BBC State Department. They've written countless mirrors of her. That one wasn't highly publicized, but she was detained for over five hours, six hours around. And the UK constinction people, several of my colleagues were threatened with sanctions for working at RT as well. And of course recently also Kit Klarenberg was another journalist that was detained for around the same time five or six hours. So this is happening with journalists. And of course I was also detained and questioned for about two hours. And so in the United States, now the United States right now obviously is the one that is going after Julian Assange for the for WikiLeaks and what that exposed. But this is now also we can talk about the FARA Act because on the background of all of this was Alex Saab that the Yuhuru movement, the Yuhuru group, they were a black social- Explain to the audience, FARA, F-A-R-A is Foreign Agent Registration Act. So sorry. Correct. Yeah, no, no, you're right. The Foreign Agent Registration Act, if you haven't heard of it, it's basically, so it's funny because they've criticized Russia for doing something that was based on the FARA Act where if you are actually found to be a foreign agent. Can Nicaragua too? You will be questioned. Add Nicaragua as well and I don't know who else. But so what I was getting at is they have used the FARA Act to extend it, right? Because it was supposed to be a foreign agent, like if you were working at the behest of another government as a foreign agent and providing information, well, they've extended it to people who have merely spoken out against the established narrative. So the Yuhuru movement, which was these are black socialists that were speaking out against the war in Ukraine and speaking out against NATO's accountability, NATO's role in that war were jailed recently and they also had one of the things that they had against them was that they were an organization and that they had a Russian member that was a part of their organization. So that was used to tie them. There really wasn't any evidence of them actually receiving any sort of like direction from the Kremlin, any sort of funds from the Kremlin in any way, shape or form, but that was used to jail them and their case is right now is still an ongoing case and it's really difficult to look at that happening in the United States. So that hasn't gotten that much attention either. And of course, we're talking about these people being arrested and detained for saying, I don't agree with this war, I think the United States is at fault. And then of course, the intricacies of the case, I am gonna have somebody on to talk about that because I do think it's important people know about this because these are all different, but at the same time, they're all stemming from the US hegemonic role in persecuting dissidents. And I think that is increasing in itself. And of course, we recently saw Tara Reed, a Biden accuser say that she does not feel safe in the United States. She was actually told by her lawyer not to return because she was going to testify against Joe Biden that they were going to find a way to arrest her. So she was advised not to return to the United States when she was in Russia. So this is all happening all at the same time and I'm just thinking to myself, it's getting really dangerous to be truthful. It's getting really dangerous to say even what you think, even if you disagree. And this started of course, a few years ago, but it's gotten increasingly worse with time. And Alex Saab is just another example and it's seemingly an example that they've exploited because of his ties obviously to Venezuela and Maduro and the fact that he is a Venezuelan diplomat allows people to say, well, he's just this corrupt criminal that was working on the Maduro, on behalf of the Maduro dictatorship and he shouldn't matter. And we're going to use all of these things against him to make sure that you don't think anything more of him. And the role of the media has been to portray that image of somebody that isn't a human being, somebody that is just this figure. But in order to talk about Alex Saab, we have to talk about the torture he endured. He endured a torture of all kinds while he has been in prison. Well, I would argue he is still being tortured by being denied medical care. Yes. He has cancer and he's been denied. Yeah, so that is a form of torture too. And yeah, I would, it's just, it's really, it's really horrifying to the point of being almost unbelievable. I would ask you, one of the, this particular diplomatic mission he was on when he was grounded in Cape Verde and then arrested by a request of the United States, he was en route to Iran. And this is, for the United States, he was perceived as a conduit between two heavily sanctioned countries, sanctioned by the United States, unilaterally sanctioned by the United States. And so he was perceived as a conduit for basically helping the Venezuelans principally, but he ran too, through the trade that he was conducting. And it's, you can really see, as you mentioned, when, and really understand, you don't have to agree with it, you don't have to like it, but it brings you a clear understanding why so much of the world is moving away from the West, the United States specifically, they have no choice. Their survival depends on it. They cannot stay tied to the US dollar. It makes them very vulnerable to economic sanctions. They can't stay tied for purposes of trade, for banking, for any of that. Even if they want to, even if their first choice would be to stay close to the United States, you can't any longer. For your own nation's sovereignty, survival, and the survival of its people, certain citizens. Yeah. It's not ideological. Go ahead. Some of it isn't. No, wait, go ahead. I'm sorry. It is beyond ideology in many respects. Yeah. It's survival. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I wanted to say. It's not just like this idea that all of these countries are becoming super socialized and they're all gonna take over and that sort of thing. It's more of like, economically, it's just not feasible for them to continue this. And I mean, there is some ideological freedom behind it. Some desire to have your sovereign identity, your sovereign right, recognize and seeing the pushback now from Russia, from other countries, from China, from, and then jumping on then and saying, okay, now we're not alone. We have these relationships that we can build on. But it's also about where the world is going and the United States is almost like, it's trying to stay in one spot and everybody is running the other direction. And so they're going to cling on harder than ever because they don't want to lose their place in the world that they've had for a very long time. And so the Western world is also in the same vein, working in the same way with the United States. I mean, recently, I don't know if you saw this, you probably did, but it was the South African delegation that was going to join President Cyril Ramaphosa in Russia to meet who Cyril Ramaphosa was just also meeting, had just met with the Ukrainian president, he was Zelensky and he was going to meet with Putin. And the delegation was supposed to join him and they stopped the plane, the Polish authorities actually detained the plane. They had the plane there for over three days, I think it was like four days total or so or more. And they frisked a woman who had a diplomatic passport as well, which was yet another violation. And the journalists that were there and the other members said this has never happened before, that this is absolutely unheard of, that they would treat a diplomat this way. But now that there's been so many precedents set which is violating international law when it comes from the United States, well then, other countries are going to continue following that example. And that group was never allowed to join President Ramaphosa. And so they were sent back. And this is again, this is just an example of just where, if you are perceived as a threat to whatever the establishment or the powers that be, whatever you want to call it, the Western. You go up against the narrative. You go up against what's supposed to be the established narrative. And or worse, and like these, and of course they weren't hurt, but they were, it was completely inconvenient to be in a plane for days and not be able to get out. And the worst part was they were blamed for it. They said that, oh, these people just wanted to sit here and stay there, they weren't being, they were told they just couldn't leave the area, not the airport. And so it was just this whole, not the airplane. And so it was just this whole thing where it was like, no, we're not doing anything wrong. And this is, it's the same attitude that we get when it comes to the U.S.'s persecution of dissidents like Alec Saab. And again, it's important for Venezuelans and you've got the gist that it was so important for Venezuelans. In spite of the fact that so many of me look like it's not that important because, you know, Venezuelans still facing high inflation, they're facing, you know, the consequences of having lived through sanctions, blockade and during the economic ups and downs of this, this is not going to go away right away. This is a country that is still struggling. In spite of that, people were very committed to supporting Alec Saab because they saw him at somebody that was trying to work for Venezuelans, that was trying to get help Venezuelans. And so that is that support he got in the passion he got from a lot of people who see him as somebody that has been trying to help and really, you know, really, it points out, it emphasizes just how much the United States has gone after Venezuela, whether it's through interference, through regime change attempts, anything. And they've endured this time and time and again. And so you can't help but look at the Venezuelan people as being some of these strongest people for having to endure that. It's not easy at all. No, they're incredibly strong and they're incredibly determined to maintain, you know, their nation and their national sovereignty. And they really understand what's happening from the North, you know, focused on them. They really understand it, you know, their followers of Simón Bolivar, they understand what's happening to the, you know, from the North. It's, you know, one of the things you mentioned, Alec Saab, helping them, he was arrested in June of 2020 on his way to Iran. And part of that mission was medical, not just food and other supplies, but medical supplies as well. June of 2020, the world was in, you know, a really strong pandemic mode and very still very heavy lockdown in the United States so this was even more significant that he was trying because of the U.S. sanctions, it's not possible for Venezuela to go out onto the international market and procure almost everything it needs, but it's particularly medicines. And so to be traveling to Iran in part on a medical mission and to be stopped, you know, that's just, I mean, you can't really interpret that as any other way except the United States wanting to just kill these people to see them die. I mean, that's a really harsh thing to see. I know, but I don't, I think those of us who understand what sanctions are and how they're used, they are warfare. They're a silent form of warfare for many of us back in the States, out of sight, out of mind. You know, we say, you know, we're not dropping bombs on Venezuela. There's no boots on the ground in Venezuela. At least not yet. There have been attempts to put boots on the ground in Venezuela from Columbia in the past and more recent years, but the sanctions are really a silent form of genocide, a silent killer. And then it's an out of sight, out of mind thing which makes them particularly insidious. And so to deny someone the ability to complete a medical mission in the midst of the COVID-19 global pandemic, I mean, it's, I don't think you can interpret that in any other way except, you know, to kill people or not, watch them die. I guess, maybe I don't even know how to frame it. It's so ugly. Yeah, to use it to manipulate, to suffocate the population to the point of no return. So they could turn against their government and really just open up the, you know, the dam into the United States coming in and rescuing them or some sort of interventionists or color-related. Oh, they would do so. What are they called? The right to the art. What's the human rights intervention? Yeah. Humanitarian for humanitarian. But it is a form of suffocation. It's a form of torture because it is a slow death. And that's what sanctions are. And you're right. People don't understand what sanctions are. Even people who have been living, you know, who are Latin American, who have been living in the United States and say, well, you know, Maduro and this and that. It's like, yeah, but you don't understand what, you can't access your funds. The country can't access funds. The country can't import anything. The country can't, like, this is just, you're completely frozen and you get, you know, you get small snippets of that as an American when you go to Russia and you can't use your money and you can't, you know, buy things. Well, you may have money, but you don't have access to it and you can't like function because of the sanctions. I mean, I got a small snippet of that. Imagine that times a thousand and living in a country and not having and then running out of anything and just having that desperation of needing to have food, needing to have water, needing to continue, you know, living like a human being and being suffocated and told no. And it is a form of murder and it's a form of complete and total disregard for actual human life and actual humanitarian cause. So, yeah. It's like, we're gonna make you suffer so hard and perhaps even die because we don't like your government. Right. Yeah. And so you either flee your country or, you know, are incurred or being, you know, strangled to overthrow your government. And that's just, that hasn't happened in Venezuela and it's not gonna happen. No, it's not and the world is really coming to understand this. And I hope with this conversation today with you that, you know, we can help influence and educate more of our citizens in North America, the United States particular to really understand what the use of economic sanctions is really about. It is warfare and it is a form of warfare. There's no other way to frame it and more and more and more of the world is recognizing that and responding to it. And so here we, again, see this multipolar world emerging not always in many cases because countries wanna overtly disentangle themselves with the United States, but for many, there's no choice. Yeah, it's about national sovereignty and survival of its people. And, you know, if we could just talk, I know you have more appointments. So maybe if we could just in closing, talk a little bit about national sovereignty because this with Alex Saab, as you mentioned earlier, he is in prison as a diplomat, as a Venezuelan diplomat. He was given Venezuelan diplomatic status at a time when the United States did not recognize Nicolas Maduro as the democratically elected president of Venezuela, even though the majority of Venezuelan citizens who participated in the election process in May of 2018, you know, said, this is who we want. And so that wasn't even recognized by the United States. You and I did a lot of election observation throughout the Americas between October of 2020, which was Bolivia, all the way through Brazil of 2022. And to me, and I think you would agree, the majority of people throughout Latin America and the Caribbean voted for those political candidates who supported national sovereignty, promoted natural resource sovereignty and were proposing economic systems that would benefit the majority of the citizens. And that includes Venezuela, so, and that has been completely, I think, a huge frustration for the United States and perhaps, you know, even has made the United States even more aggressive towards many of these countries, which again, you know, could result in some, in a not very good outcome for Alex Saab. Yeah. I mean, national sovereignty is the number one thing that all of these countries want and have wanted for a long time. Countries like Honduras- Like for five hundred years. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, and well, that's a whole other show that we did almost like we did it. You know, the Bolivar situation, the freedom from the crowd, now it's turned into, well, the freedom from the US because it's the same apparatus pretty much in power. And so now we, that's still, they're still fighting for that. But the reality is all of these countries have wanted national sovereignty, whether it was from the crown, whether it's now from the United States or Western hegemony. And, you know, Honduras endured, you know, a narco dictatorship basically for over a decade and, you know, was able to come back and free itself with obviously nobody saying that they're free of difficulty. Nicaragua, you know, Cuba has maintained, has gone. I mean, it's in really critical condition right now because of just the lack of petrol, the lack of tourism, the impact of COVID, but they've managed a 60 plus year blockade. And this isn't easy to do. And I think the American and Western public have no idea what that would even be like for a day. So they completely offset these issue of sanctions as well. Sanctions are bad, but at least this person doesn't wanna nuke somebody. And I think that that understanding is extremely American exceptionalist. And we see this American exceptionalism brooding in the US election. And Venezuela has an upcoming election as well as does Mexico next year along with the United States and, you know, other countries have it this year. And so it's important to really look at how these countries elections will happen and how the United States is responding to them because I think the more these countries try to become independent and build relationships with each other and away from the United States, the more aggressive you will see. And I think right now the focus of the United States is clearly the Troika, the Nicaragua, Cuba and Venezuela. And we as anti-imperialists have to do everything we can to prevent our government in the United States because it's our government, it's where we're citizens of where we can fully criticize and then fully go after to prevent the intervention in these countries because it would be a detriment to the fight for national sovereignty of the people of the Americas. It would be a detriment for the fight against imperialism and Western hegemony. So I think when it comes to national sovereignty, it is one of the most important things we can support of other people. And I think when people try to say, well, the United States, you know, you can't be proud of being an American. I think it has a completely different context to it. And a lot of people try to equate the two. It's one thing, you know, being a living in the empire and then being under the boot of the empire. So there's a difference. And I think it's up to, you know, journalists, dissidents, activists and just people who, you know, do these delegations or who travel abroad to really bring light. And that's why that forum was so important because so many different people had so many different stories as to why they were there. And so many different organizations came together to really support Alec Saab and support the people of Venezuela. And there was that sense of, wow, we're all here and we all see what is happening. And, you know, we're going to try to draw more attention to this because it's not just an Alec Saab issue or a Venezuela issue. It is an issue against anybody who is against the established narrative, the established, you know, talking points. And this is a fight for basically the ability for countries to make their own decisions. And if the United States doesn't recognize Maduro as the president is irrelevant, because Venezuela has decided he's the president and it's that simple, you know, it's really that simple. So, Fiorella, in our closing minutes, where can the audience learn more about Alec Saab, the free Alec Saab campaign? Yeah, so. Go ahead. And also, where can we find out more about the forum you attended last week? Yeah, so there is the free Alec Saab movement, free Alec Saab, I believe it was freealecsaab.com when we double-checked that. And also, I will be posting a full edit of my speech. The reason it was in Spanish. It was in Spanish. So I just have to translate it into English, which won't be hard for me, but I had to do it in Spanish. So it was filmed by the local Venezuelan channel and there was another YouTuber. So I will put that on Twitter and I will also do the written out English version on sub-stack for everybody to have it. So that's, yeah, so I will do that. But let me just make sure I give you the right website for the free Alec Saab movement because, let's see, because that one was really, that's, you can find all kinds of information up until the latest, but there's a free Alec Saab movement in Venezuela and then there's the free Alec Saab movement in the United States as well. Yes, it's freealecsaab.org is what it is. Freealecsaab.org. Okay, I'll put that in the program notes as well. And also for the audience, I'll put all of Fiorella's social media handles in the program notes also, so that you can follow her and see that great talk you gave last week in Caracas. It was really good. Oh, thank you. I'm so happy you had time. I know you're just getting back to your work and your life in Moscow and I'm just so thankful you had time to talk to us today. That's really great. Always great to work with you and I always so value what you have to say and share with us. Thank you very much, Terri. And I hope to see you soon on our next adventure. Yep, next month. We'll talk about that. We can share that with the audience next week. Yeah. But anyway, I just want to remind all of you you've been watching what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean we're a popular resistance broadcast. You can find us on YouTube live every Thursday evening, 7.30 p.m. Eastern or 30 p.m. Pacific. We broadcast simultaneously on the Convo couch, Code Pink and popular resistance, post broadcast. Recordings can be found at Apple, Spotify or wherever you find your podcasts. So thank you everyone and we'll talk with you next week.