 then welcome it's the 21st of July this is 2022 this is European documentation office hours for Jenkins topics I've got on the agenda include action items news blue ocean status message change log entries for multiple repositories search improvements for the dock site commercial support page proposal and upcoming change log and look and feel improvements pull requested I think actually I'd like to adjust this one to be higher on the agenda so that we make sure we get to it because it's I think it's a really important one all right and this one probably should go up actually yeah what that really means is this one can go down like that okay so there's a draft proposal for an agenda anything Bruno you need to add no thank you okay then first items on the action items I'm sorry to report that I still have not made progress on my action items and it's going to be several weeks before I can they're just these things have to wait uh on news jenkins 2.360 released and it has a new configuration page or I think it's freestyle projects oh really I installed it today but haven't yet tried it yeah it's it it moves the moves the navigation links the in-page navigation links from the top bar to the left I guess exactly to the side panel where they're much easier to see much easier to detect and and it I like the look very much now the for instance the folders plugin does not yet have that change okay I've seen a few demos I have to try that right and the the uxcig in recording from recently includes a demonstration of it then we had google summer of code presentations today including a presentation by vihan fora uh on pipeline steps doc generator and thanks very much to vihan we're already seeing improvements on the the pipeline steps pages and very grateful to him for that now we've got a a new topic here or a topic we had before the look and feel improvements page poll request has been through some iterations and I think it's I really do think it's ready to to merge let's do a look at it just to see here so this page notice the the gradient blues and the consistent color for the download button here the yes the jumbotron continues to navigate and we retain the other layouts now one of the things that has may have to change is the plugin site yeah may need we may need to coordinate with it as to how we whoops I have to go this direction there because the plugin site borrows or or grabs content from jankins.io to keep its look and feel consistent so I need to check with with gavin mogan I was considering should we open for more feedback by posting that hey this is a proposed new look for the site to community dot jankins.io bruno what do you think is that a an okay thing to do saying hey here's here's the new look what do you think yes I totally agree with you you should do that if you have time to yes community jankins.io is a place to be when talking about UI changes and so on I think a lot of our users are in community jankins.io of course they're also in Gitter but yes we have a discussion with thing.state that we can have a look at when we're not into craze of discussing yeah community jankins.io definitely good okay so I'll I'll do that because I can do that in just minutes that's easy to do so thank you so yes and and then and coordinate with with gavin on the final merge great all right thank you so so I'll take care of that one then we've got a new an additional pull request that kevin martins has submitted he's proposing that we add based on a request from Gavin mogan that we make it more clear that blue ocean is not being actively developed that it's being maintained that bugs critical bugs are being fixed and and security issues are being resolved but not new enhancements and so what he's prepared is this change and he reviewed it with Gavin and Gavin I think is is generally agreed I don't see an approval yet but for me I think it looks good so far I wanted to show how it looks and ask for some feedback here so in this case if we look at the documentation on blue ocean it's not the disclaimer is not in the first page and so this is one where I would want it in this page and Kevin didn't put it there yet so I think it should be here okay and I'd I'd almost think that we want it very high on this page possibly even for the what is blue ocean or inside the what is blue ocean I'm not sure which of those we have seen lately a few posts in Community Jenkins the day of people saying what it's not actively developing now all too bad I was enjoying that so yeah better tell them from the very beginning right exactly and and the fact that it is still very much usable and very very much we want to continue describing it we don't want to take away these pages for instance on the creating a pipeline page here I think he chose to where did he insert it I don't see it on this page actually interesting so I know for instance he did it on this page on the dashboard page but for me the surprise was where he put it was below the first screenshot so it's it ends up below the fold for you know it requires page down before you see it and I think we probably want it very early in the page the trouble is I'm not sure if we want it as the first text that they see maybe it is the first text they see you're what do you think Bruno how have you seen this done in other cases or other places well I have a big disclaimer on the page from the very beginning so that you can't avoid it you know it there and you can't miss it so yeah I would go at the very top of the page good all right so your tendency is put it put it very early that's that's mine as well I think it's worth asking others let's see pipeline editors another one where he inserted it and here again he inserted it below the first video and I'm prone to want it above maybe it should be not the first paragraph but after the first paragraph yeah but I do I like it much better there than below the first video yeah because that was the first video you getting excited by the product and then you got to disclaimer a little bit too late right well and okay on mid on a number of them this this example page here one of the challenges we had with this first video is there wasn't enough text above it to put the video cleanly below the contents list on the right by adding the disclaimer we've clearly got enough text to put it above two birds in one stone right exactly two birds one stone so okay so I think I take away from that prefer it higher on the page possibly after the very first paragraph and if a page does not have a good first paragraph then we need to create one create a strong first paragraph if one does not already exist good okay anything else on blue ocean status not on my side thank you Mark okay so we've got we've got an additional topic then search improvement so what Gavin Mogan has observed is that some searches on www.jankins.io have very poor results and examples might be search for the word upgrade a not uncommon word and it does not find right now the best pages for upgrades so let's let's do that as an example if I search for upgrade cheera upgrade for the Jenkins project if I search for upgrade without pressing enter windows installer upgrades Jenkins upgrade so so Jenkins X so there is nothing on this page that's really core to how you do upgrades in Jenkins whereas if we say site colon Jenkins.io upgrade the Google search results take me to the LTS upgrade guide yeah or even within the GitHub website the repo for Jenkins.io I think we could find more reasons okay exactly so so or to upgrading Java from Java 8 to Java 11 all more relevant than any of the the results that came from this search and what what Gavin then did is he asked our search provider Algolia who's donated the search engine for us what we can do to improve it and their answer was oh uh oh you're running an outdated outdated configuration you need to migrate from the legacy scraper to their new new technique what it is is we use they've donated a facility called doc search this is a facility they provide to open source projects where the the open source project just informs Algolia we're willing to have you scrape our side and Algolia will maintain all the indexes and everything without our infrastructure without Jenkins infrastructure okay so so they've changed they've they've upgraded migrated but we haven't done it yet so this is sort of a development task that involves some integration and and we need need some time to follow their directions and reconfigure the site ultimately it will involve probably some small snippets of JavaScript that exist now will be changed to something else okay uh is there something uh utility uh that we could use on our own fork for example just to see if the results get better with the new algorithm oh that's a good question any way to evaluate the change from from old site to new and I don't know that's a good question from legacy scraper yeah because we have to believe them and of course we don't think for that that would be cool if we didn't invest too much time before realizing it isn't worth way yeah good good question um so I think what I want to do here is mark to create a Jenkins.io issue for this upgrade I'm a little worried that it may there may be a limited a very limited set of people who actually have control of of this part of the things and so it's going to take some some exploring it may be Gavin and me or the only two people that have access so so I think let's create get an issue created and then we'll track it there anything else on the search improvement no nothing thank you okay let's see so I've got another topic then this one I don't think I don't think there's anything much for us to say there is there the next LTS baseline scheduled for September and the LTS will be show baseline will be chosen will be chosen next week so it's likely either 2.360 or 2.361 okay and oh one more point I will be out next Friday yeah and so may need to cancel next Thursday's meeting would that be okay with you bro yes for sure okay so let's just mark to cancel the meeting next week great all right okay next topic or anything else on other topics no okay so next topic for me was commercial support page this is a proposal from Gavin Mogan that what he'd like to do is create a a vendor commercial vendors who are providing commercial support for Jenkins implementations and there are several that do this for instance cloudbees does it red hat I believe does it there are other vendors in Europe who've done it in the past we had eight or ten and we would highlight them on a wiki page and his his sample site was showing something like this where we might say there yes search for that vendor so his idea was let's put it here and this could be a a series of results table of different choices with links to their support side or their training side or certifications that they may offer those kinds of things in which languages they support which locations they support yes and I think I've seen a proposal that you made today with another vendor okay yeah so a I submitted an additional data item for another vendor I didn't submit one for instance for red hat or for others in the Europe and I think we need more data from vendors for the prototype yeah but do we know someone who is supposed to take care of contacting different vendors in order to have consolidated a curated list of official vendors yeah I think I think that Gavin started that process okay may we may also want to ask the outreach outreach to contact potentials so for instance one member of our board of the Jenkins board Adelina Vilkos previously had worked for a company that provided these kind of things I think her current employer does not but she may know some and she's a strong northern Europe contact all right so let's see others and this is one where I'm not sure that I guess maybe I should test something there are certainly plenty of vendors who have there's three or four or more vendors who who have pages like this let's get download these are vendors that are deploying Jenkins in the public cloud like AWS and it's very much or Azure but I wouldn't call them I'm not sure I'd list them well I don't know maybe should we should we lobby that they be put on that list they could be with a particle tag maybe a label but of course they maybe won't offer some consistency if that's a word but they can help with you deploying Jenkins in the cloud so yes it definitely should be part of that list right well and that's that I think is is a maybe that's a question we bring to Gavin is what if we were trying to describe how you do because these are certainly commercial vendors right they are very much commercial vendors and and they are very much doing things that help Jenkins and help users of Jenkins be successful yeah so so it feels like hey that would be a good thing to mention them now yeah so maybe okay good let me put this in the notes here and discuss further adding cloud providers to the commercial vendors list although he may Gavin may be concerned there because I think his intent was commercial support vendors yeah and I was telling concentration that's maybe not the right word but yes that's the initial idea of gaining right so so at well and and that's I don't know if if for instance red hat or IBM would say hey they are doing commercial support of Jenkins they may say no what they're doing is providing a Jenkins package that runs on open shift and and that's different for them because they provide commercial packages that run in run engine x on open shift and and I'm not sure they would say that they are a commercial support vendor for a engine x all right we have to discuss that okay yes so uh discuss yeah so raise the question to the community forum discuss there good okay anything else that comes to your mind on commercial support Bruno not for the time being thank you okay my last topic then or last yeah last topic then let's take this next topic change log entries for multiple repositories so this is more of a statement of a challenge and then I don't know how to solve it yet so what we get is the Jenkins weekly change logs those things that look like this Jenkins docs here when I look at the change log for long term support or even better when I look at the weekly change log this change log its content is collected automatically by a program that Tim Jacome wrote and it's done for every pull request that is submitted to Jenkins core okay so it's not a release draft or is something else it is it is definitely something else and it's something else because the thing it's creating is actually a YAML file that is a dated representation of these change log entries oh okay and and so that's that's a great help that's much better than the old process where we created that data interactively however this change log is only extracted from Jenkins core and there are times when for instance a packaging change let's use one that's familiar to you Bernal the SSH the agent packaging now includes ARM 32-bit right yes yes that probably should be in a change log because it was very much an added capability and it was an added capability that became visible about the same time as a particular Jenkins controller release so it would it wasn't specifically tied to a controller release but it's it would be effective to put it in there but we never look at that repository for changes and therefore we never detect to add it to the change log I see and and there's here's a more a very specific example this java 17 one so we added java 17 support into the windows installer yes which is not part of the core so it's nothing to change log right but it very much is core in the sense that from that install page I can download the emma the windows installer directly so it seems reasonable to say hey this thing probably should be in a change log you're right now the challenge though is and and I think it might be feasible to an extend the program to read multiple repositories it's reading one now why why couldn't it read multiple or we could port the tool to the other repositories so that each of them is willing to contribute you know I'm open to any one of those but the challenge for me is then if we did that how would the change log generator know what to include yeah you're right because we don't use release tags on the packaging repository right and and we don't we don't use them there because we don't really have any use for a release tag on a packaging repository release core packaging is just tools so for me this is one I think I need to discuss it with Tim Jacome further I I may just bring it to a to the Jenkins developer list as a discussion topic and see if ultimately I could just take it up in private email with Tim but I think a developer list topic may be the best way to say hey what's a healthy way to do this yeah any suggestions there Bruno things that you've seen work well elsewhere oh no nothing as complex as that I've never seen anything this way you know change log more most of the time are done when people think about that the way you do we do in Jenkins is already a very good step so no I have never seen that elsewhere for the time being okay all right but then that's super interesting the the thing that you want to bring everything together totally makes sense and I would love to see that working yeah well and and it's it's guided self-interest right I'm interested in it because then it reduces the number of times that we the docs sig misses a change log entry because we didn't insert it interactively yeah great all right I will bring it to the bring it to the I will ask in the Jenkins developer mailing list last last topic then is the change log and release guide for 2.346.3 we've got a request already sent by Tim Jacome looking for the release lead we don't have a volunteer yet but I hope early next week to find a volunteer to take it great and that's all that I had any other topics from you Bruno no I don't thanks for asking all right let's call ourselves done for today thanks very much you're welcome my pleasure