 And welcome to Power Up Hawaii, where Hawaii comes together for a clean energy future. I am your host, Raya Salter, energy attorney and principal of Imagine Power LLC. It has been said that elections have consequences and the election of Donald Trump will have impacts on clean energy development in Hawaii, in the United States, and throughout the world. Donald Trump, the candidate, has said that he will withdraw from the historic Paris Climate Agreement, and he has also said that he will support the fossil fuel development. So what does a Trump administration mean for you, here in Hawaii, if you have a clean energy company, own clean energy assets, work in clean energy, or just care deeply about averting climate change? Today we will be talking with two people in the know about what's next for clean energy in Hawaii and on the mainland, when Donald Trump takes the wheel in 2017. I am pleased and honored to be joined in the studio by Isaac Moriwaki, with Earth Justice here in Hawaii. Isaac is an attorney with over a decade of experience, litigating before federal and state courts and agencies on a range of issues, including environmental health and clean energy. He works tirelessly for a just and clean environment here in Hawaii. Welcome and thank you for coming, Isaac. Thank you for inviting me and having me on the show. Absolutely. We are also joined via Skype by Carl Robigo, executive director of the Pace Energy and Climate Center at the Pace Law School in White Plains, New York. Carl is also a lawyer by training and has over 25 years experience in the energy and climate field. He has been deputy assistant secretary at the U.S. Department of Energy, a commissioner at the Texas Public Utility Commission, and has held various senior positions in utilities, energy companies, and think tanks. He's also a U.S. Army veteran, ranger and airborne qualified. Welcome and thank you so much, Carl, for being with us today. It's a great pleasure to join you, Raya and you, Isaac, in this discussion. Thank you for having me. All right. Thank you. I just, this is, I think, very excited and happy to have you guys here. I think after the election, I think we all understand that there was, you know, there were expectations. A lot of the polling was wrong. I think a lot of folks thought that Hillary Clinton had this in the bag and a lot of the climate and environmental activists, I think, were sort of looking at the Hillary Clinton platform and thinking, you know, this is the way we're going to move forward. However, that was not the case. I think it was a big surprise to a lot of people. And I'm just excited that you guys are both here to join because I think that folks are really looking for thought leadership and even just moral support at this time. So I really, I'd just like to start things very broad and ask the both of you. I'll start with you, Carl, on Skype. What in terms of broad energy trends can we expect with renewable energy in a Donald Trump administration? Who the heck knows? I mean, I've actually spent a lot of time talking with friends and with reporters and other people in the energy policy area. It's really hard to knit together a coherent strategy there. We've got some sound bites. We've got some one-liners from the campaign trail, but we really don't know much more than that. And one of my pet peeves about this entire election is that sound bites and one-liners substituted for meaningful policy discussion. So it's going to be really hard to have a meaningful policy debate until we see some more flesh on the bones. But what do we know? Well, we do know that he also swept Republicans into leadership in Washington. And they have had an agenda. Sometimes it's been supportive of clean energy. Sometimes it's been more supportive of fossil fuels, coal and oil and natural gas interests. We do know that a lot of Mr. Trump's voters were Tea Party-type people, libertarians, working class, and those people are real strong states' right supporters. They live and breathe. They understand what the 10th Amendment says. Many Tea Party people can quote the 10th Amendment to you. And so in that regard, notwithstanding the Republican leanings, there might be reason to believe that a Trump administration won't interfere with the state trying to take care of its people. Very interesting. Thank you for that, Carl. Isaac, do you have thoughts, sort of general thoughts on energy and what the Trump administration may bring? Well, I think any reason for optimism, as far as someone advocates wanting some sort of control on this careening problem we have with climate change, to shift from fossil fuels to clean energy, I think reason for optimism kind of went out the window as we're finding who's on Trump's transition team. And maybe, Carl, you can touch on this a little bit more, too. But there's this character that's going to be taking over the transition for EPA, who's basically just his character and his resume reads kind of like something out of the Simpsons or whatever, you know, Smithers or sorry, Mr. Burns. And so notorious climate denier. And right along the lines of what Trump was saying on the campaign trail, thinking that climate change is a hoax. And so this does not bode well, as far as directionally speaking, where we're headed as a nation in terms of dealing with climate change and moving from fossil fuels to clean energy. All right, that it's discouraging, but let me thank you. Carl, let me ask you, you have worked in the Department of Energy as a serious thinker and as the many brilliant scientists that we have in the Department of Energy. What would that mean for a climate denier to be at the helm of the EPA, as Isaac was talking about? Right, so several layers to this particular onion. First of all, the Department of Energy and the EPA have cooperated throughout the last 24 years on advancing clean energy, especially voluntary clean energy initiatives, especially state run clean energy initiatives. So putting a climate denier in there, we're not sure what it means in terms of program administration, in terms of the enforcement, in terms of following the law. Our Clean Power Plan came out of an act of Congress in a Supreme Court decision that said that once the EPA found that there was harm to human beings, they had to regulate on carbon dioxide. That doesn't change just because the guy in the top office has got his fingers in his ears, right? So he can't, you know, it just says climate is science. And science don't care, you know, what party, science don't care about politics. Science is about the facts. One more thing that's really important to it. DOE, big agency, but most people don't know that 80% probably of the Department of Energy's budget is on nuclear weapons storage and nuclear waste management. That it was born out of the Atomic Energy Commission. They do a certain amount of research and development. They've been doing some great work to support solar deployment and wind deployment recently, in the last eight years especially, actually a little longer. But most of what's going on there, whoever they, you know, I heard there was an oil or a gas man being considered for the Department of Energy, that guy is gonna find himself having to deal with the intricacies of nuclear stockpile management. And he's gonna have a whole lot of time to mess around the edges. Last point, what's at stake? What's at stake is our leadership. The world knows climate change is a problem. The world knows that the science is right. The world is ready to follow a leader on addressing these issues. The leader of the energy economy could be us, but if we put no nothings in charge of those agencies, the world will still have a leader. It just won't be the United States. Thank you for that, Carl. That leads me to my next question, and I'll go ahead and ask you, Isaac, when we talk about international leadership on climate change and averting catastrophic climate change. Trump, the candidate, has said that he wants to withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement that was reached in December. Now we're at, that was COP 21. Now we're at, literally right now, COP 22 is happening. What would it mean for the U.S. to pull out of the Paris Agreement? What goes to Carl's point about leadership is it would be basically the U.S. abdicating any form of leadership in this, what's becoming a global movement, maybe even a seat at the table, becoming a renegade nation in the community of nations and saying, look, like Carl said, fingers in the ears, la, la, la, we're not gonna be dealing with this. And then it's up to the rest of the nation, maybe China, to take the leadership and then hopefully things don't descend into anarchy. Real quick, regarding the point about science, I agree. You know, in this modern age, we believe science wins out the facts matter. But we've seen, like for example, in previous administrations, the George W. Bush administration, the violence that can be done to science by just ranked politics. And I fear, and again, waning optimism, but we'll see what's gonna happen to science under this administration, which is like basically George W. Bush on steroids or maybe George W. Bush meets reality television. I think Isaac Hatt makes a critical point there. And I'm not being a Pollyanna about this. Everybody talking about this has said we're at or critically close to a tipping point. We can't afford to lose four years, much less eight. So there's no cause for complacency. And I'm sort of enjoyed to see a lot of people in the environmental community, a lot of smart scientists and lawyers getting together to talk about how they're gonna deal with these situations, notwithstanding a Trump administration. But the good news is that they don't wield absolute power and waning power in the community of nations. Let me ask, the Clean Power Plan was intended to be sort of America's enforcement system or contribution to the reduction of global greenhouse gas emissions. Carl, where are we with the Clean Power Plan and what can we expect from the Clean Power Plan under the Trump administration? So people who haven't been nerding out on it, like some of us here on the show. You know, the EPA did publish a final rule and it reflected, by and large, the trends going on in the industry, meaning that coal plants are closing, no one's building new ones. Natural gas is the fuel of the day and renewables are coming along at a record pace. They use that information to set a standard. It really becomes a kind of a floor for what utilities will do when they make electricity. And it basically says that state of the art is modern natural gas facilities and if you're gonna have any of those old coal units, you better balance them out with some new renewables. That's pretty much what the plan says. But it's important to note that in most states, like in New York, where I'm living now, this Clean Power Plan is kind of the floor. Clean Power Plan doesn't make New York do anything because New York's well on the way. We already have a regional agreement with several other states to cooperatively work to reduce greenhouse gases and our governor has taken a strong leadership just like they're in Hawaii to leave the state far beyond. It's preserving that right for the states to go above and beyond the Clean Power Plan floor that's our most vital issue of the day. Thank you so much for that. And I think we're going to head to a break. And after I'd like to ask you, Isaac, on your thoughts of the Clean Power Plan and what that means for Hawaii going forward on renewable energy. Hi, I'm Stacy Hayashi with the Think Tech Hawaii show Stacy to the rescue, highlighting some of Hawaii's issues. We can catch it at Think Tech Hawaii on Mondays at 11 a.m. Aloha, see you then. Aloha, my name is Reg Baker and I'm the host of Business in Hawaii with Reg Baker. We're a show that broadcasts live every Thursday from 2 to 2.30. We highlight success stories in Hawaii of both businesses and individuals. We learn their secrets to success, which is always valuable. I hope to see you on our next show. Aloha. Looking to energize your Friday afternoon? Tune in to Stand the Energy Man at 12 noon. Aloha Friday here on Think Tech Hawaii. Hello, welcome back to Power Up Hawaii. I am Raya Salter, your host. And I'm here today talking about what's next for clean energy in the Trump administration with Isaac Morwake of Earth Justice Hawaii and Paul Robigo, director of the Pace Energy and Climate Center at Pace Law School in New York who's joining us by Skype. We were just talking about the Clean Power Plan, which are the rules that were intended to be the mechanism that was going to enable the United States to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from the energy and utility sector and reduce greenhouse gas emissions globally. I was just going to ask Isaac, in light of what Carl has said about if indeed the Clean Power Plan is scuttled by a... And you can speak to the legal status by either a Supreme Court or by the Trump administration. In light of the fact that was Carl's point about sort of states being empowered to still be progressive and move forward. What do you think this will mean for Hawaii, if anything? Well, briefly on the status of the Clean Power Plan, it's now sort of pending in the courts. So it's in limbo there. And then of course the Trump administration can come in and maybe withdraw it or change it or weaken it. Carl mentioned before, there is a backstop there. I don't think the Trump administration can completely say we're not gonna do anything with regards to climate regulation because there already has been on the books of finding that there's endangerment due to climate pollutants, okay? So the EPA has to do something. Of course, there's a world of possibilities in terms of what the Trump administration can do to do nothing or do very little, okay? Now with regards to the Clean Power Plan and its effects on Hawaii bringing it home here, I agree with Carl completely that that was, the Clean Power Plan is just a floor and frankly not a very high one under the circumstances, especially what we need to achieve to get the job done in terms of getting a handle on climate change. As far as Hawaii goes, we realized Hawaii was completely exempt from the Clean Power Plan because the EPA hadn't gotten around to figure out what they should do with Hawaii. And even in the draft plan, Hawaii was only given a target of something like 10% renewables when we've already achieved upwards of 23% already today. And so the Clean Power Plan wasn't gonna do much for Hawaii or a lot of other leading states like New York and California. And so regardless of what the Trump administration does on the Clean Power Plan, it's still full speed ahead here in Hawaii. And as everyone knows, we have a 100% renewable goal here under state law. All right, excellent. Thank you so much for that. I wanna ask another question about what we can expect or not expect from the federal government. And that is tax credits for clean and renewable energy. And I'll go ahead and ask you Carl, where does the industry still need these credits? Are they imperiled in a Trump administration? What are your thoughts? Yeah, there is some risk of this. Serious people are wondering if there's an expectation that with the Republicans maintaining their majority and with some of the soundbites that Mr. Trump has made during the campaign and some of the people he's talking about for his transition, that there'll be some kind of energy bill introduced in the Congress, maybe even in the lame duck set period between now and the inauguration. And there is a concern that Republicans will try to cut the production tax credits and investment tax credits that renewable energy development receives. It would be one-sided probably because there are of course a lot of tax breaks for fossil energy and doing things the old way, which would be left in place. I'm heartened a little bit. I've worked this issue on the Hill when I was in private industry and stuff and Republicans in general were supportive. I also don't think that tax credits for renewable energy which produces so many jobs in the states that voted for Mr. Trump is something that his supporters would want cut because as we've seen, bad energy policy leads to fast and many layoffs, especially in the booming solar and wind energy industries. So it's a possibility. It's a question how much Mr. Trump will let the Republicans advance a kind of a quiet agenda to cripple clean energy, the Koch brothers agenda, the Alec agenda to try to bolster the coal industry. But I'm hopeful that cooler heads will prevail. I even remember reading at least one insider story saying that the Trump administration wasn't gonna go after those tax credits. I wouldn't expect to ask for any more tax credits, but I'm feeling that there's reason for cautious opt-ins. All right, thank you so much for that, Carl. Isaac, what are your thoughts? As we know, the solar industry has been booming in Hawaii recently, some recent decisions and actions taken have perhaps according to some sort of cooled off the solar industry. I've been interested in your thoughts on that, but what do you think in terms of either signals or practical effect that tax credits at risk could have for the renewable energy industry here in Hawaii? Yeah, first of all, in terms of the prospects of a change to the tax credits on the federal level, I've been hearing the same thing as Carl, where folks don't really know, and the opposite side, maybe the hopeful optimistic side of the industry says, well, the tax credits were just extended just a year ago with bipartisan support. It already has a sunset provision built in, so how much of a priority is this gonna be for the administration and Congress to target this particular tax credit? So maybe not gonna be a top focus. In any event, I think whether the tax credit goes away or maybe another speculation, other speculation was that maybe they pushed forward the required completion date for renewable projects, so limiting the window which the renewable developers can receive the credits. So whatever happens, at least for Hawaii, and I think this goes to the previous point about, okay, how does the national level policy affect Hawaii level policy? Well, in Hawaii, even without the tax credit support, renewables are already cheaper than fossil fuels in Hawaii, and it's getting that way, it's gonna, that trend, that shift is gonna happen sooner than later across the nation. And so I think it's, again, not only because of Hawaii's 100% mandate and its ambitious goals, but also because of the market, Hawaii is still full speed ahead, and it's gonna be up to states like Hawaii and other leaders like, again, New York and California to show the rest of the nation the way, how it's done with clean energy. I think it makes a really good point about the markets because markets really do drive what goes on in energy, and even our markets influence Hawaii, and Hawaii's markets and policies influence us because we're seeing this rapid growth, figuring out how to do a lot of solar and energy efficiency. I don't wanna derail the conversation, the thing that scares me would be another war. If in order to bolster the Defense Department, Mr. Trump starts getting sort of ambitious about getting ourselves into a big conflict and we have an economic downturn, that's bad for everybody just the way renewable energy growth has been good for everybody. Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning that because I think it's evident that energy and energy policy is deeply intertwined with geopolitical risk. But to go back to, I really wanted to ask both of you, if you, Carl, were to take your think tank advocate hat off and go back to the hat of a clean and renewable energy company or clean and renewable energy developer on the mainland, and you wanted to do the most that you could to thrive and survive and maximize your success in 2017, what would you be thinking and what would you be doing? And you can differentiate if that's between a small company and a large company or however you like. I'll add a pinch of politics to it. I'd figure out how to get clean energy, renewable solar energy, community solar gardens and community sharing, a solar sharing, energy efficiency and storage into the hands and the homes of low and moderate income Americans. I'd go straight for Mr. Trump's voters and I'd show them how a clean energy world would make them more secure, put more money in their pockets and have them learn to trust that component of the progress of agenda. But that will let be economically tenable for your business as I could not agree more and actually I wanna ask Isaac because I think this is a big issue here and also in the mainland, but is that a market that's ripe to be tapped? It's an underserved market, that's for sure, right? We're assuming that all this stuff starts with the well to do and then trickles down, but yeah, people all over the world of the lowest incomes in countries where incomes are much lower than ours, participate in financial and market transactions. Yeah, I have to, yes, that is extremely, I couldn't agree with you more about this, I really couldn't. I just want to give Isaac a chance to respond to the same question of if you're here in Hawaii, if you are a clean energy company, a clean energy developer, what are you doing, what are you thinking in order to be successful in 2017? Well, it just seems like there's something that's hanging over the renewable clean energy industry's head around every corner, something existential happening, whether it's state tax credits or federal tax credits or the end of net metering or what have you. And I think it's still the same situation here. I mean, pedal to the metal, get as far down the field as fast as you can. And like Carl said, expand that base of clean energy adoption as broadly as you can. And frankly, in Hawaii, it's already happening. We have the Costcoization, the home depotification of solar at this point. And it's really been reaching into sort of traditionally disadvantaged neighborhoods at this point. That is fantastic. I also know actually, it, I'm tempted to ask, I know that there are some things underway at the commission here that are looking to empower community-based renewables. And we also have a GEMS program that has a lot of funding for low-income clean energy that has yet been untapped. Is that something that could be a source of? Yes, definitely. There's attention and opportunity there. A lot of things are on the plate here in Hawaii. And we're definitely wanting to address that underserved market. Well, I can't tell you how happy and excited and pleased it makes me to hear from some of our top experts in the country and the state that the answer is clean energy for everybody and lower cost energy for everybody, hopefully ultimately. And that pretty much wraps up our show for today. I could, I really can't thank you enough, Carl Robigo from Pace Energy and Climate Center, and also thank you so much, Isaac, from Earth Justice for joining us today. And please join us again next week at this time again, one o'clock for another edition of Power Up Hawaii.