 Okay, I just hit the record button. So this meeting is being reported. Thanks everyone for filling it in. Like I said, I'm Erica beer bower. I am hosting the place of rich who is traveling today. Thank you everyone for joining. This meeting today is just a general meeting. And as we always do in the beginning, we're going to go through the reading of the Linux Foundation anti trust policy. We're not actually going to read it, but here is the slide that as rich always says just being a good person is basically what this is saying. And if you want more information, you can read it. And the link is on the general meeting page. I'd like to start out with if there's any new members to the group. Can we have you introduce yourself at this time. I can start. Hey everyone. I'm Uncle Jen. I am not necessarily new to the group but I have been joining intermittently, serving as proxy for Ravish Devon on behalf of the bear subgroup today. Oh, great. Thank you so much for joining on behalf of him. And where are you located. I'm located in Columbia, Maryland. Great. Good morning everyone. And is there anyone else. I'm not. I'm seeing a few names that aren't super familiar to me but I'm just substituting. Not sure who's new and who's not. But if there's anyone else who'd like to introduce themselves or give an update on what they're working on. That would be great. So this is Jonathan Holt. I'm not also not new. I've been working for the past year and a half. I'm a clinical geneticist and biomedical informaticist by training. I live in Chicago. I'm the chair of the ancient identity identity healthcare subgroup of the IEEE and I'm mostly work on genomics applications of blockchain technologies but mostly that center around identity and encrypted data stores. Oh, great. That's very interesting. I am also in a couple of those IEEE subgroups as well. I am in the IONT and the research subgroup. So wonderful to have you, Jonathan. Anyone else? Go ahead and just get a capture of everyone who's here. And, and where are you located, Jonathan? I forgot to ask. I'm in Chicago. That's right. Okay, great. So for those of you that are new, it doesn't sound like there's anyone who's super new. Please consider adding yourself to the membership directory, which is on the screen right now. We have members here just so that if anyone needs to contact you or you want your information to be known, this will be the place to have it. I'm right here as you can see. And here's Rich. So I'm right here. So to that, that would be great. I do think you need a Linux foundation and ID to get into that. And that's really easy to set up if you haven't done that already. The next thing I was going to talk about is, Rich has been talking about this for a while, but the Hyperledger Global Forum is a huge event for Hyperledger. It's happening here 3rd through 6th in Phoenix, Arizona. Is there anyone you want to go into that? I'm planning on going into that. Oh, great. Is this John? Yes, John Walker. Great. Okay. Well, maybe we can get an update for you from you at one of the other meetings. It seems like it's going to be a great event. And then, of course, we have the HEMS conference coming up in March. I was told by Rich that Hyperledger is actually not going to have a group this year at HEMS, which is kind of surprising. I think he's focusing on the Global Forum. So, there is a social event for the Hyperledger and healthcare special interest group that I think Rich is going to have an email about. If you are going to attend, is anyone on the call going to be at HEMS? Okay. That will be a big conference as we all know. And then also, is there any announcements that anyone would like to share with the community for updates on what they're working on? Some of the business stuff that people are, any progress people are making or any interesting updates for the group? Tell us about this is Jonathan. So one thing I've been working on in the IEEE identity subgroup has been immunization records. And I have the specification done. And we're still waiting to get some feedback, but I'd be happy to share. Mostly just for cross-pollination between different, because each standard has standard bodies. And I think the more we can cross-pollinate and actually get feedback. So the data model actually uses verifiable credentials, which is a specification coming out of the W3C. But the sort of the payload and the evidence, the data actually is in HL7 fire. So I certainly would appreciate some feedback to see if I'm totally off base as far as this approach. There is some concern as far as what we leak in patient health, a PHI, that maybe be done better. I'll put the link in the chat. Okay, great. And is this something that you're preparing for the IEEE group in a document, or are you just getting feedback on your approach? Yeah, so the data model is actually mostly coming through the W3C and the schemas would be hosted. Well, that's the question is actually which standards body does this really belong in. So the IEEE is you probably know is that there's a lot of, they make their money by copywriting their material. But I think the data model actually shouldn't be cooperated, but probably the implementation guide that actually accompanies it. The actually for IEEE members is actually what would be proprietary to that group. But the data model itself I think is should be free and available and open source. And I think the question is really like who hosts these authoritative source of something called JSON-LD or the JSON schemas. Okay, great. We've had in my groups that I've been involved in, we've had some questions. Maybe similar, maybe not on just exactly what we're providing. And some of the groups I'm in, we're just providing links to what's already out there to show people where to find things and then filling in the gaps where standards have not been set. But we still aren't 100% sure who our audience is in some cases. So if you have any feedback on that, or if you know anything we don't know, that would be great. Because we're not quite sure exactly, for example, the research group, if we're targeting, you know, from simple companies, individual researchers, institutions, who's actually at this content, who will be working with this content, that's some of the struggles that we are trying to get addressed by the larger group. But I think from the, Jonathan, I think from the, working with the patient subgroup, we'd certainly be interested in your work and any, you know, proposals that you have out there. Because I'll be clearly identity and where that exactly, as you said, where that's hosted and what the format of that exchanges is very relevant to some of the discussions we're having. Yeah, exactly. And I think the way that really it's with the verifiable credentials is actually it's really the idea of a self sovereign digital identity. So that patients and or providers actually have their own identity. But it's really still a struggle with, you know, and who owns your, let's say your back. The reason why I started with the vaccination records is that when I used to teach at university, the graduate students, it's like the Hello World of a health record is always like a vaccination record because there's so much there to unpack and as people can understand it. The vaccination records are also very much decentralized. So you don't get all your vaccinations from one healthcare system. So you get it all over the world. You know, I've had vaccinations, you know, and in other countries. So how so it really is like, but how do you actually have that as proof if you actually bring it to another doctor? How would they trust that you indeed had a typhoid shot? So I think that's the where I started with it, but also has to do with physician identities. So how does how do you actually see the signature from that vaccination and say, oh, you know, you got that vaccination in Kenya and that physician is a duly licensed physician. And what's the authoritative source of truth that you actually can independently verify their credentials. So there's a lot to unpack and I think it's but the where basically the model is done. And I just need some more feedback. And unfortunately, the very public credentials sort of on hold right now with the W3C is in transition and standards take a long time to mature. And so this is sort of I think the first pass at it and we basically throw some stuff up and see if it sticks. Great sounds very obviously is very relevant. Yeah, wonderful. Thank you for sharing. I was just going in my head of all the vaccine vaccination times I've gone through all the way from, you know, when you're little through college and like you said in other countries so it would be great to streamline that somehow. Okay. So next. Oh really quick. I would like to use it more. It's a really good way to stay engaged with the community. So if you if anyone else uses it that would be great and you can make comments and put post like the one that you just did Jonathan on there for for feedback. And the next thing we'll do is the subgroup updates. And we'll start with the patients members subgroup. Do we have someone on the call from this group. Yes, I don't think I don't see Dennis on the call. Yeah, he usually is on all the costs so I'm surprised to not see him, but if you could give an update on just any progress you've made where you guys are at that would be great. Sure, so we're working on a POC. That demonstrates the comparative demonstration between the sawtooth network and a fabric network for a consent. So we're basically the team is. We need to present our progress at the at the global forum I don't think we'll be doing a session or anything but maybe a bridge and feather one kind of sidebar sessions. But that's basically our goal is to to have kind of our, you know, a point one POC ready with use case documentation behind that for the global forum. That's what we're working towards. Oh, that's wonderful. We're just starting but we've got some traction and a good, good team so that's great. Great. That's wonderful. Okay, so next is the bear sucker. So everyone this is again for anybody who joined a little later on proxying for Ravish Devon today. Update, we, we are reorganizing the group. We shared this in the previous few meetings, unfortunately the participation in during the last part of last year kind of dwindled and it was not really consistent. So we decided to take a break reorganize start fresh in the new year with new times. Maybe it was the time that was not working out for everybody it was late in the afternoon on Eastern Standard. So I will be reaching out to schedule a new time for the zoom meeting we are targeting to have the meeting on Thursdays at 12 EST. You will be receiving some communication from us. Again, we, we had engaged with some pair organizations about a pair organization in the vision industry over here in Maryland and they are interested in doing a POC with us. So we're really just trying to get more traction and bigger team and more involvement and include more people as we'll be doing some exciting stuff this year. Okay, great. Thank you. Sometimes it's hard to get things going and it's good that you have a plan to set up a new meeting time and kind of try to work with everyone on that. Next is the healthcare interoperability is a group is Steven on the call. No, I don't see Steven on the calls Bob Coley in New Hampshire. Hi, we had one new member join very interesting and exciting in a way from Mexico, we am all the eyes. On our last call on Monday this week. And he is tied in with with the whole Mexican phenomenon of trying to get electronic health records EHRs and PHRs into Mexican doctors and offices and hospitals so it's like a blank slate compared to what's happened in America since 209 and the 31 or more billion dollars subsidizing doctors and hospital centralized EHR PHR systems. I don't know why Steve, I thought Steve was going to be able to be on this one. But basically, this subgroup is was focusing on how clinical artifacts can be stored in the blockchain in the semantically interoperable way. And the policies and assets and consensus process needed to guarantee semantic interoperability so it's focusing on the four levels of interoperability is focusing on semantic level. And I am not a computer engineer I was in, you know, private practice of internal medicine gastroenterology in Rhode Island for 38 years and retired in 205. But I've always been a technology enthusiast and I just couldn't miss the new blockchain superimposed on decent on centralized database systems that I had, you know, encountered in my, in my medical career. So that's that is the, you know, I think that's promising that we've got another young person. And who has connections throughout Mexico and also is partnering with sounds like EHR PHR vendors in in California. So he's very enthusiastic and we're looking for new, we're looking for additional engineering types that want to get involved in this. In this subgroup, and we talked with rich repeatedly as as has Stephen. And I think the process of recruiting members of the subgroups is not yet fully refined and, you know, and any, any help that might come from the members of attending this meeting would be appreciated. Thank you, Dr. Coley. Yeah, if there's anyone on the call who's interested, please contact Stephen Elliott or Bob. Thanks so much for the update. Thank you. Okay, the next next we'll talk about the ad hoc teams I'm going to speak on behalf of rich for the wiki redesign team. Thank you so much for this so we can increase access to the healthcare special interest group site. So a suboptimal. And so we were to find anyone with conflict confluence experience. Get stuck in and away. And if anyone's interested, I think there was someone on the last call. Let Rich know. Anyone in the call from the academic research team. Okay. And then the next team is the use case development team and that's that's my team. I just am getting this revamped and started. For members who have responded and get just getting ready to set up some meetings. And Wendy Charles had set out a wonderful example of a very well done use case. We're really trying to get more in depth details in our writing when we present these use cases. And really the goal is to develop high quality and compelling use cases of foreign healthcare stakeholders and other interested parties on applicability of blockchain specifically hyper leisure and healthcare. We're going to use guidance from medical journals and provide current references to support our use cases. We will collaborate with other groups and general members and potentially other standards groups including IEEE and other blockchain and healthcare companies to ensure proper representation of these. We're setting a meeting up in the next few weeks for that. And the group members are Patty and Dennis, me and one other member. So thank you everyone for being involved. If anyone is interested in participating in any of those use cases, have any knowledge around there or would like to do some research, please let me know. Okay. The next topic is the survey is live. I took the survey yesterday. Let's see here. This is what it looks like. So it's really quick. It took me like five minutes. So we'd really appreciate it. If you could take the survey, there was an email sent out with a link to it. It's really just trying to find out where interests lie, who you are, what's your activity in the hyper ledger space or in the blockchain space, what types of blockchains you're interested in hearing about other than hyper ledger. So it's a lot of different questions around that. So we'd really appreciate it. If you could go ahead and take that survey and give us some feedback, so we can make this group better. And here's a link actually right here to it if you are interested. And the survey will remain open until February 14. So put quite a bit of time to give some input for us. All right. Is there any changes that you'd like to see within the group, any feedback? This is, this is the time to share your thoughts. Okay. My interject one thing. When we had this new attendee. I put together. He had just started to look into it. I put together a couple of emails to, you know, point them to the membership directory and the, the chat and the listserv and all. And I just wondered if, if that could be developed to facilitate. The onboarding of new members of the SIG. Kind of like an, like a little packet and an email to give, give people direction on how to, how to be involved. I mean, if they, if they somehow someone refers them to it, they're all excited and, but it is not a simple trivial thing to, to learn where all the links are hard to, you know, find the right URL for the chat, rocket chat and all. So, you know, I think if it were, if it were something you could email to someone to facilitate their understanding the whole thing that's going on in this complex system, you know, it would, then they would tell their friends, you know, and it could build the, the membership. I agree. That's a great idea. That's wonderful, wonderful feedback. This meeting is being recorded and Rich is going to listen to everything. So I'll pass that on to him and that's a wonderful idea. I agree. I had some, some trouble when I first started as well, like even finding the link for the zoom meeting, you know, you have to scroll down and it's in the middle of the. Oh, absolutely. It takes, it would take a lot of pressure off Rich in, in the recruitment task that he, that he has supervised the other thing. Right. That he takes on that he, yeah, it's a lot of, it's definitely a lot of work and it's a volunteer position, obviously. So yeah, that, that's a great, great feedback. Thank you. Thank you, Bob. I see that quite a few people have joined the call since we started out there. Is there anyone else, any new members who would like to, I was going to speak about the next meeting, the next few meetings, we have an interesting speaker coming that I was going to let you guys know about, but is there anyone else who wants to introduce themselves? Okay. So not the next meeting is another general meeting, but the meeting is not the one of the 21st. We're going to have Ben Parkinson, a director of product management at Luma deck was a healthcare startup recently acquired by Providence health. He's going to present to the group on self sovereign identity management solution and do a live demo using cover ledger Andy. This is going to permit patients to electronically update providers and pairs with their member details through secure digital law transactions. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Actually, he's going to have a demo at him's. So this, this presentation. 21st. Is going to be kind of like the same type of presentation that he's going to give at him. Great meeting. Exciting. Exciting. Please don't work for Providence health. It's really interesting. And I'm really glad. Kind of taking this on. Okay. And then our next meeting is another general meeting. For our next meeting. So one thing that came up earlier was about this concern about semantic interoperability. And this is again, what I'm struggling with as far as where to host. Schema definitions and who like which standards bodies and I'm still stuck at the most solutions right now use basically just HTTP hosting. But there's a host of challenges of security matters. And so, and this is just me just voicing my, my concern and frustration because like everything I see is basically like, yeah, it's blockchain. But it's like a blockchain running on Azure or in AWS. And so how do we actually, or, you know, like fabric running, you know, and so how do we get away from basically web 2.0 technologies as a layer for basically reinventing all this technology we've done over the last 20 years. But then we're still using HTTP. And so, and I struggle with that with, with this semantic interoperability right in peace right now, which is basically all of our security is still vulnerable to middle attacks and SSL proxy forging. So it's, I'm just struggling with, I'm a very big advocate for blockchain technologies. I've been in this space for four year plus years now. And I'm a clinician. So, and I'm a programmer and I actually spend my time way down in the weeds parsing binary. And so, but I'm, I'm still stuck at the, how insecure it is. Yeah, it sounds like you a lot of background and different things and have, you know, where you're coming from. It makes sense that you have these questions and this, these are great topics to bring up. So we can definitely add that as a talking point to the next meeting. And if anyone has any feedback or would like to comment on that right now, that would, that would be great as well. Well, Jonathan, I'm curious about your, your earlier mentioned that basically the SSI, right, or distributed identity is, so that's really being driven by the W3C. And I would, I mean, I haven't really plugged into that under, understand what SSI is and, and the challenges you're describing, but it seems like if the, that would be the top level organization, right, to drive that out. And then other standards bodies would either adopt or experiment with implementations, right, of whatever, what direction they're going. And I'm curious if you come, you were saying that that's kind of the ownership of that initiative is on hold right now or in transition. What do you have any, any insights into that? Yeah. So the working, it's a working group in the W3C that actually had their restating their charter. So there's, it's interesting because there's also work being done at Hyperledger. So Aries, who the presentation next week is going to be about self-sovereign digital identity SSI. And the project Aries has a different spin on things with this whole did come. Basically it's rewrapping like everything we've done over the last year, which is DNS resolution, TLS for secure transmission. And basically we're, we're wrapping HTTP in all these other protocols. So, so yeah, so the, but under the, under the cover is, it's basically still HTTP and, and we all know that actually it's, it's, it's really insecure. And I spent most of the day yesterday actually, you know, proving this out, which is I really, how do you, like everyone wants to demo is like, oh no, we fixed that bug. And so, so you basically like can piece together a couple different hacks and actually show that like, and from a security standpoint they're, they're still all very vulnerable to these type of vector approaches. So these vulnerabilities. So, so yeah, so they're, they're not, not just a project Aries or W3C. This is also the Diff, the Decentralized Identity Foundation. In healthcare space there's, if you guys are familiar with the direct project. And so direct is basically SMTP over a secure certificate. Basically it's email. So actually like you, you send payloads of, of information via email, but there's basically one source of truth of the secure, the secure authority of basically who comes from the direct trust. And that's the problem because that's like, that's basically a monopoly. It's not decentralized. It's not really self-sovereign in any sense. So I guess I'm having an existential crisis and, and now since I've spent years working on this and really dove down into the way, way down in the details and have concerns. I'm curious in the, in the, is in the mix with the W3C, is any of the work that Berners-Lee's doing was solid or erupt? Yeah, of course. Yeah. So those, that's those are like encrypted data stores as being one of many different solutions. Unfortunately, you know, Tim really has his head around the HCTP protocol, which he created, which is the higher W3C consortium is concerned about that one protocol. So everything is about that protocol. So, so I think there that comes with a lot of baggage as far as these standards being developed in a, in a standards body that is concerned about one protocol. So since hence why I think there's need for cross-pollination and just a fresh eyes of making sure we don't reinvent the same vulnerabilities in, in these flashy new things we call blockchains, but they're really still just API calls. Hi, can I just chime in here? My name's Kent. I'm a fabric developer and some ideas on Jonathan's project. So you could think of it as the identity module in front end. And then you wouldn't put the patient name onto the blockchain, but you would have some sort of serial number or code. And then you put some of the patient information. So to separate the identity and the information on fabric, for example. Now, one of the interesting things is that fabric does not have they does not encrypt the information at the front end. So you might need to encrypt it before it goes onto the chain. And another thing is that we use TLS in fabric. So that might alleviate some of your concerns. And another interesting option is to use private data collection. So normally with fabric, we have different nodes, different validators, different endorses, we call them endorses, and that might be a centralization problem, as in who would endorse the information to go onto the chain. With private data collection, one of the best things is that the user or the patient or the customer, whoever it is, can actually self-certify that information and put it on without needing a second or third party. So that might be some of some ideas to help you develop your project. And how do you share the semantics between? So I think my understanding of fabric is that it's still very much a certificate authority that you spin up and actually like, and you have other people co-signed so that whether the trust is actually is basically through your partner. Let's say you have a pharmacy company actually like you and you have a hospital and you have an EHR because basically you all have to basically cross-sign your certificate authority. So they're self-signed and you basically cross-sign and that's your web with trust. Usually yes, but with the private data collection, the answer is no. So the last part of my answer would be that with private data collection, you can actually self-certify the information yourself without needing any second or third party, anybody else. You can just self-certify the information for yourself. So private data collection, one of those three words might be very helpful for you. Okay. And there's a lot of similarities but we're working on with a self-solving digital identity as far as creating these things to do that. But what about? My point is that putting the identity, separating the identity from the fabric blockchain. So the data goes on the fabric blockchain and the self-solving identity is a separate part probably ahead of it. Okay. Cool. Thanks. That was a great discussion. I'm learning a lot. Does anyone else have any comments? Wonderful. And we can continue this too. If anyone has comments later, or we can bring it also bring this up at the next meeting, as it is also a general meeting and there should be plenty of time to bring up topics like this next time. Does anyone have any closing comments or other topics they'd like to discuss before we end about 20 minutes early here? This is Alicia. Hi, Alicia. Nothing regarding that. Just actually recommending a book for very interesting reading. Okay. It's called The Price We Pay. And it's by Dr. Marty McCurry. And it's a very interesting book regarding, you know, payers, but patients. And, you know, when I'm reading it is, I see the amount of potential of, you know, developing a lot of different things for in health care. Is this written with regard to the U.S.? Yes. Yeah, so yeah, for people that are not in the United States, no, not really for them. But it's really regarding health care in the United States. And this physician is a physician researcher that works at Hopkins. Okay, great. Wonderful. Thank you for the recommendation. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. But a link in the, in the chat, that would be great as well. And we will include that in the show and the notes for the meeting as well. Okay, thanks. So anyone else, any comments? Updates, questions, topics for discussion for either now or next meeting. All right. Well, wonderful. Thank you everyone for joining. Thank you for letting me through. Thank you. Thanks so much for the opportunity to join in the chat as well. And thank you for joining in the chat. And thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I was going to say that this is February 7th. Same time. And we're talking about that. If there's nothing else, everyone have a wonderful weekend. Thank you. Thank you.