 I'm going to put that now. Here we go. I kind of. All right, so I'm assuming to Governor Baker's March 12, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law and general law chapter 30 a section 18 this meeting of the TAC is being conducted via remote participation. It's going to be recorded. I think Amber's pushed the button already. I'm going to mute and mute and public discussion. Oh, that's it. Okay. So, hey, thanks everybody for coming out on this snowy day. It's in years past. I sort of remember this time of year fretting about getting quorum or wondering whether town hall was going to be closed and we could meet at all. It's funny how everything seems to have changed recently. Trying to get in the cancel it because of the snow and then you told me no. Actually, I wondered about that because I don't know if there was some, some invisible connection to open offices in town hall that is not in that preamble that I have to read about changing the rules and everything else. I'm just as glad that it's not except as we were talking about earlier, the kids who won't get a snow day. Although it sounds like many of them did anyway. So the, the under announcements and public comment. I wanted to chat a little bit about what Tracy and I heard at the precinct five meeting. The other day about the Pomeroy intersection. District five. I'm sorry, you know, that was born in any of that district five, which is bigger than which is not precinct five in any way. And just, I wanted to do that because I know it's pending. We don't we haven't seen the plans yet and our involvement is not strictly decided. But I just wanted to keep us up on what the public are thinking, what the community is saying about Pomeroy intersection specifically. So I don't know. I know I didn't ask you about this beforehand Darcy but I don't know if you want to, if you want to give us your impression of what you heard, and let Tracy and I say no no that's not at all right. What we heard was something else completely or, or. Yeah, I can mention a couple things one is. I think it's a little kerfuffle after the meeting about some people from North Amherst up at arms because of the thought that this would be coming up before the North Amherst project, but then it kind of the conversation came around to to sort of accepting that this entire project is going to be paid for by the mass works grant, right, is that right feel for hopefully. So, I think that sort of assuaged people's, you know, concern about that. And so, and the other thing was that and tell me if you disagree about this but it seemed like there was a pretty uniform opinion that the around about would be not the favorite alternative shows by the people at the meeting. I would say that was super majority of the people there, or maybe unanimous. But so because I guess the application was for either around about or upgrading the the actual intersection. The light is and people that they didn't think that it was necessary to have a roundabout and then there was some discussion of what is around about as opposed to a rotary and Alyssa Brewer informed us. So, yeah, those were the main things that I saw coming out of it, you know, people had there were there was a lot of interest it was clear that people came to the meeting for that reason, as opposed to the the other topic which was just sort of the budget. We're waiting, waiting patiently for that topic to come up because everybody was interested in that in my village. That's really all I have to say about it. Yeah, Tracy Tracy. So Darcy I had a question. I had been looking for it but I haven't seen it I was curious about what was in the proposal, like when it was getting funded in terms of what they were. I read, you know, the news articles and so on but just to kind of go back to what planet the planning department and the town's application actually said, you know as your. I mean, were there a lot of specifics there was it just kind of more general. We never saw the that's, that's a question for Guilford we only the Council also only saw the cover letter that went with it. I mean, I guess I'd be interested to see sort of what what the vision was in the proposal because I mean Chris Bress have mentioned at the last meeting, or some meeting I was at, like that I know that the planning department had worked on, you know, redesigns for this intersection for a long time. So it's something that they've obviously put a lot of time into and thought about for, you know, a couple of generations worth of staff and so I'd be interested to know if there if those details can be made available it seems to be really helpful, both for the community to kind of understand like the bigger picture beyond what you know the short news article says and because that I mean, I think that part of the, the request and again I'm going to sort of ask to make this a question to Guilford. He's over there for me is includes the design and and I know there have been all kinds of, there has been as you say Tracy a lot of work done on this designing this in the past, but every one of those, maybe the more like concepts and designs really fit what the request was, rather than the other way around. So, is that right Guilford. So, sort of the story begins back in about 1995 96. That's what I'm talking about. So, I wasn't here. I was in, I was in South Carolina at the time, but in 95 and 96 the director before me, Noel Ryan, got a got the state to put the intersection on the transportation improvement plan. And at that time the road was owned by the state. And we convinced the state or Noel convinced the state that he needed they needed to do an improvement there. There was only a stop sign at that intersection then. The state came up with a plan and they proposed to start building it about 2000. 2003 2002 2003 about the time I started with the town. Kind of a disagreement over the design at the time it was proposed mass DOT was not in the bicycles it was not in the pedestrians it was in the moving vehicles through the intersection. So there wasn't a lot of intersection improvements for pedestrians are bicycles. The town said no we want to do more and the state said well if you want to do more you need to take it over and redesign it. So the town took over the intersection and what we did was a quick and dirty we put the traffic lights that are up there now. And that's what came out of that. Then the DRB with the planning department actually laid out an intersection improvement, which was all traffic lights. It was much different they did have a multi use path that was much wider than the current multi use path on South Pleasant Street at that area. And then it just kind of sat and languished and not got and didn't get funded and didn't get moved forward. So at that time, since they did that we built the roundabouts and South Amherst and Atkins corner we built the round, we in the UMass built the roundabouts at Eastman and Governor's Drive and East Pleasant Street and Triangle Street. And then UMass just added the fourth one with the one at Fearing Street right now. So, we developed and that was first thought about roundabouts weren't even an option we looked at. So it's, but the DRB did was a traditional intersection. We've played around with it since then and we've actually laid out a roundabout and work out around about configuration for it. So the last works grant will get money to actually collect data will go through do traffic counts to pedestrian counts bicycle counts. And then we'll model both intersections that we have so far will model the roundabout and will model the regular intersection and see which one comes out the best. The only weird thing going on right now is that our traffic flows are post pandemic and haven't returned to the pre pandemic chaos we have in their intersection. It's getting close, but it's not there yet. Thank you so so I would, I would add one other a couple of other notes that I took away from the meeting. It's, it's, it's true that most of the people who spoke there they didn't like the idea of a roundabout. That's now I happen to know that not everybody at the, at the meeting is against roundabouts I for one would support it. And Tracy, thank you very much for, you know, you did put in a lot of information to the group on how well designed roundabout could work. The, the most important thing that I heard is that it came almost right at the very end of the discussion and it was almost a throwaway line. Somebody said you know what's what's really important about this intersection should be should not be cars. The intersection really does need to serve should be set up to serve that burgeoning town center, pedestrians, I think they were they were thinking about pedestrians but I'm thinking about all the modes that would would go through that intersection. Of course, that all has to be tempered by the fact that you know there are 10s of 1000s of trips that go through that intersection on every day. And we would hear very different responses if there were long lines waiting to get through the light which is possible. So that's anything else. We're saying that I don't want to get too far into this because like I say we don't we nothing has come to us yet we don't know. No, we don't. Nothing has come to us yet to work on, although I'm anxious I'd be delighted to start anytime. Tracy. Um, so I just had a quick comment just you know it's go for it was speaking just about when he's modeling, you know when they do have the traffic volume data. Again, it sounds like there's questions about when that data would be collected since we are like in a COVID state right now and that may not reflect what the traffic would be at the intersection, longer term but I guess the question. I mean, I don't know if this is going to come back to the tack or not but just kind of questions about because Gilbert was just saying you know whatever the better performing model is like that's the design that they would probably go with I guess just to understand what the criteria are for like, what is the better performing model right. So, in terms of traffic volume or other criterion so and it does seem if it is going to be a village center it's not just about like moving vehicles better. Yeah, and just to remind you that we had, we had sort of preliminarily approved our six tiers of level of service for bikes, Peds and transit and set a target for level three for bikes level two for beginner bikes and level one for pedestrians and the research that we did suggested that that level of service really should be based on people's experience of a place rather than any count. So we were, we were heading that way in terms of our analysis for those non car modes. So that's that's Darcy. I just add just because it's my district and I live right there. So I have a lot of experience on that corner is that it feels as far as the the existing roundabouts are in a different type of configuration that then this area because it's right in the center of the city of the village center and each of the four corners is an important part of the village center and the problem is easy access walking from corner to corner to access the different parts of that town center. Right now it's, it's, I think that if you did account you'd, you'd find that not very many people try to cross the streets there, because it's not it's dangerous it's, you know, and so for me it would just be, I see it as like a challenge to try to get it to be pedestrian friendly. Yeah, that's, that's, I think that is the most that like I said that was the most important takeaway that I took from the meeting was that the emphasis needs to shift from what it was back in the 90s which is get the cars through the heck with the pedestrians to the other way around, get the people through. Of course, you know, keeping the traffic flowing but Kim. And just to your point Darcy you know I had initially felt that way as well. So, the roundabout on triangle, you know, that connects UMass to triangle and downtown and whatever because that's a route my kids used to have been using to walk to school. Honestly, that it's those intersections feel now me crossing them and my children crossing them alone are actually really safe like people, which is surprised, which was kind of surprising to me. So, I would suggest trying to like trying some of that out because it's, I mean cars are really good, because they're, they're approaching those roundabouts and with caution, you know, to begin with so, you know it depends on the size of the roundabout I guess to because like the ones at Atkins, I don't feel are as safe as that one and triangle, but you should try it out, because it changed my mind. Bruce. I would echo what Kim said, and also take a look at the roundabout of the university that is up by the graduate research tower, the north end of campus that went to me seems like the best one in town that as a pedestrian and as a biker. I feel very safe crossing there I've never had anybody like try to speed through. I think it's a really good one. One of the things that that I'm looking forward to as as the design goes through on this is is something similar to what we saw for the roundabout at the university the at the end of North Pleasant there. The, the data that I forget who the engineering firm was were very good and they did a very thorough analysis of, of, you know, pedestrian safety of vehicle efficiency of all of the things that we want an intersection to do. And then that that roundabout is what came out of that research, because it performed better than, you know, the smartest of smart intersections and extra lanes and turning this and stopping that Eve. So I have to send two different people one is Guilford who will say yes but but that can you hear me. Yes. One is Guilford who will say yes but that intersection is bigger than the one at triangle unless the circle a triangle had to be smaller and so a little more complicated that one on the north end of campus was easier to do and then the second person I want to send is Marcus, who just would say, with that you can roundabouts that are sort of like really little mini roundabouts that still can be traffic coming. And with that, I want to ask you guys if I ever sent the bend Oregon roundabout policy design manual to you guys. I remember you did send it out because it's it's just it's nice to just like there's just so thorough on this is how you do roundabouts and situation and doesn't mean we have to do it but I think part of why people don't like roundabouts is because they have an assumption of, of like, you know the roundabout is being a prototype and if we have a wider idea of what they can be I think you can actually retain the sense of that that center if it's done well. But I think that's a concern we had that concern when we're talking about the North Amherst intersection and putting around about there that keeping the sense of place in the village center is a crucial part of what we want to do. So, so there's a preview of what what we might be doing and thinking about if we get to tackle the Pomeroy intersection nice picture there Guilford I'm not, of course they go around the wrong way in that country but that that's another story. So it's either it's a mirror image or it's in Britain. No, it's it's in New Zealand. New Zealand. The rest of the building on the on my left shoulder has a restaurant in it on the first floor and you sit on the sidewalk and watch people drive around. And then the other ones are businesses as well. It's kind of a cool place. It's the center of their business district. Yeah, yeah, we know how you think about these things. I like to do little subtle things. Maybe that those buildings will be in the future of Pomeroy Lane. Yeah. Wow, I had. So the another the next comment I guess that's where we're in. I wanted to share with you is that we got a note. We the Transportation Advisory Committee directly got a note and I copied you all minutes ago. I sent you an email with a copy of it. It's a letter requesting traffic calming in Elph Hill. I just wanted to talk to just to say that. And, you know, this will be this is an interesting. It's an interesting request for me because it joins a number of traffic calming requests that we had been getting before the pandemic seems to have stopped everything. But this is very reminiscent of, well, of all of them, people just, I don't know how familiar people are with the neighborhood, but there's kind of a funny road that's almost parallel to Bay Road and ends up Elph Hill ends up carrying a lot of the traffic that could be on Bay Road through this neighborhood kind of like like Lincoln Avenue carries a lot of traffic that really should be on a university drive through the neighborhood. And with a lot of traffic comes a few ill considerate drivers and just the problems with traffic, you know, with with arterial traffic in, in residential neighborhoods. I don't know. I would like to consider putting this on our agenda and I know there's some comments that Eve has to make about agenda setting and everything else I'll get to that later. But to think about putting this on and considering what we would want to do to to answer this I'm going to send back a reply. To, I guess it's to Megan Rhodes, just saying thank you we got it and we're going to, you know, we're going to do what we can with it which is a little bit up in the air. And so begin to think about it. As usual as you might expect there's some suggestions about this kind of sign and that kind of rule and various, you know, changes. And I actually went to look at it. And I would, I would love to even consider something as dramatic as just removing road, forbidding cars from traveling between a conservation area that's on the belcher town belcher town side of the end of the road, and the neighborhood itself traffic that goes to the neighborhood goes to the neighborhood traffic that is arterial goes on Bay Road, and then comes around on Warren right. Any event. You may want to look at that. And so, you know, this this is. It's actually it's a very nice note. And it's very thorough. So, we'll be looking at that. So I would want to put that onto our projects list and we're going to talk about a little bit later. So what do you think. I'm not sure that you've all had a chance to read it because as I say I just sent it to you, like it had passed an hour ago, but I wonder if we might just pull up. Pull up the streets so we could actually look at, you know, together kind of just look at looking very, very, very industrious there. I think it's very steep, isn't it. The road that they're talking about Elf Hill is but the road that they want to remove is not it's it's it's very flat and straight and that's that's part of the problem. It's the people that are coming down to it on Elf Hill, we're going up to it. That's the problem so. Yeah, it's so one of the things that came to mind, and you'll see this in the picture when Guilford pulls it up if he is it can is that the, the concerns may not match the problem that the perceived problem may not be the actual problem. And so one of the things that that I'm wondering is what kind of approach we would want to suggest and recommend be done to to really to understand what the best solution would be for this. So it's holst road turning into orchard Street that seems to carry the the the bulk of the speeding traffic. The holst road, holst slash orchard is a shortcut to Warren right, which, you know, it takes a lot of traffic to the north. It's a shortcut so you don't have to go around Bay Road it's it's in order to get to Warren right on Bay Road, from the intersection there at Holst you have to go up the hill and around all those corners and make that crazy left turn. Because if you go on orchard, it's just a, you know, if you do it out. So, so that that is something that I'd like to put on to our, our plate. And to think about. So what, sorry, what is the What is the other issue with Elbroad which Yes, I understand that but Do people use that as a shortcut as well. I, so this is the thing I you know I'm going to have to go back and understand this better and I think we need to understand what's going on better. But this says a large trucks turn on to Elf Hill from Bay Road by accident. And then the other reports are that the stretch there between where Holst turns into orchard that people speed to the point where you know I've heard of people, you know having to jump off the road to get out of the way safely. And so this is, this is Area, according to Guilford's map I mean there's lots of houses that in that. Yeah, oh it's it's it's very it's it's, it is a nice neighborhood. Then you live there. Then you live there Aaron. No I live around the corner on street and No one's going to pay attention to me if I ask for traffic calming on it's it's it's arterial. We do have a nice speed automatic speed limit speed sign which is which is nice. Why are. I mean the question is why are trucks turning on to Elf Hill. I don't know. And, but you know this this is I think that this is a legitimate request, you know, to consider out and among, you know that list of requests that we were looking at. And so, can we not just make like the intersection of three way stop. Well, I mean I'm giving up not because they rode is is a is a road I'm thinking whole and echo Hill. And we'll we'll we'll figure out how to solve it beyond saying that this is very reminiscent of issues that we had a wildflower lane. I mean I'm on Larkspur, where, ultimately, when a study was made of the traffic going through there, it was all local, the complaints really ended up being about local traffic, right, right, not. So, so don't know. But I just wanted to to share this with everybody so that it's not a complete surprise. I mean, it is a straight street and it is continuation of, you know, orchard traffic calming could, you know, put a couple of chicanes in there could help to something like that. Yeah, and that that may be, you know, that may be reasonable that may be a good solution but we're developing a whole bag of tracks. We've got, you know, speed tables pillows bumps whatever the official title is, you know, signs. You know, we don't have any chicanes. Those I think, you know, they're, well, as with everything their issues with every one of them so. But this came in and at some point. I would like to to apply our tools to decide where this would fit into the hierarchy of things, and then subsequently, you know, figure out what we would need to do to understand this problem and make a recommendation. And I had a question. So when Megan sent her request, did she just send it to you? Did she also send it to her counselors or to the town manager or to Guilford or. It went to Guilford. And she shotgunned it. And then come in the copy that I got was CC to Guilford. No, isn't she, I guess she's a senior transportation planner. Is that up at the Franklin regional cog? That's right. Yeah, I think it's irrelevant. Actually, she actually didn't say where she works. She just told us she was a senior. No, I understand. I think she's up there, because I recall I used to work there a long time ago. The, I guess so, I mean, in terms of like formulating a response to it, and particularly if there was going to be any solution that requires funding, I mean it does to me a little bit come back to the question questions related to the tax, you know, charge and scope and how much power we have, right? Right. We don't have a budget per se. Right. So we're not in charge of any DPW or other staff. And so, I guess, I mean, that's exactly to come back to the larger questions about when these requests come. I mean, I think, you know, when I've listened in on the TSO meetings. I think the town manager makes some really good points right that when somebody comes with the request such as this or other similar, or, you know, other things related to transportation. You don't want them to feel like they have to go through a lot of different committees or different people. They just want their problem addressed and they want to know. You know, that it can be an acute like it's being considered and so it really does come back to the larger questions about how those questions are dealt with. I mean, one thing that they talked about at the TSO meeting is, and different TSO members at the December third meeting and different TSO members had different perspectives on this, but I showed the TSO committee be quote like a complaint committee, you know, where they're like the first, the one stop first stop shopping in terms of people filing their complaints and then knowing that they're like on the road to getting addressed. That's, yeah, that's exactly you're you're right this does does this is what I imagine, you know, it gets to the heart of how the response, you know, of the response that either TSO or TAC needs to make to it. And I mean, right now, our suggestion is that, you know, we take this we work on it we will apply two sets of tools to it. Our, our, you know, prioritization, you know how important is this when you consider it. And then second, the tools of well how do we figure out what the right thing is to do here, what kind of survey traffic study. You know, maybe we hover drones for I don't know. But that's, yes, that's exactly it and that's that's why I was, that's why I was interested in, in sharing this with everybody. Definitely. Yeah. So, I don't know if there's anything more on that that we'd like to talk about. It does seem like on the Google map question. I mean, it sounds like like she's suggesting in her letter right that Google Maps is directing people that way and that's happened in other residential neighborhoods as well, both in Amherst and in other towns. You know, there are ways to get Google to stop doing. Yes, and that may be the issue but it, you know, it sounds like a lot of the problems are not people who are looking at their GPS and are lost and are taking ill killed by mistake. Yes, that seems to be part of it and maybe that's Google directing them. But there's also it sounds like there's local knowledge and hey, this is a flat shortcut. So again, this is stuff that we have to figure out how to understand. You know, but right like some of the mapping algorithms like I remember around California, you know, when you're looking at like shortest path algorithms right so I know in California when there would be fires, like so, like the neighborhood, the some of the neighborhoods would send people like through the neighborhoods with the fires because those would be the neighborhoods with no traffic congestion because there was I mean anyway, I mean those are some bigger issues but some in some of those cases like if you contact those vendors that they can, they can fix it. Yeah, and that may be part of what what we recommend here or even do here. I think does Elphill Road actually meet the criteria to have a steep grade sign on it because that seems to be their problem too. Yeah, of course, of course, once they're on the grades too late they've made that they're committed. I mean, you know, the warning sign of a steep grade before you at the entrance to Elphill Road or whatever. They looked down the intersection, as they're coming off of Bay Road I mean the steep grade starts right from the top. Sometimes some people need a, you know, something to smack them in the face before they see it. So two things, one is just a reminder that when we read the tax charge closely it never said that the tack was supposed to handle all of this. It said that we were supposed to figure out who would handle all of this. I do think that, yeah, sorry, I keep saying we, it wasn't we, it's a you. But, but, but I do think that you know what Tracy's bringing up and you're saying we're waiting for Paul it is an important point to say, like, well, I'll just remind you that when it was a we last December, we came up with a list of like administrative and financial priorities for the next year and one of the things we said was hire a part time. Multi modal transportation planner and Guilford I recall you and Paul saying that might be moving forward and I'm wondering what happened with that. Because it does seem like this kind of small thing it would be good to have someone other than the tack, you know, vet, vet it and to add to that like the prioritization system that we're coming up with might not actually be the right tool for this because it might be focused on bicycle and pedestrian networks and this is not going to rank high there but, but it might, you know, be a relatively low cost thing to you know put a foot out across half of the thing saying no through traffic and, you know, or no left turn it's not a problem solved it's no big deal. And but it doesn't seem like it should have to wait for a prioritization system which is on hold, nor your moving forward with the new charge. I would second what Eve is saying I mean it seems like some of the prioritization system it has to do with like the, the more major expenses right we have, as we talked about at the last meeting right and I still have like an older version of them but we have the big list of like the bigger projects that require big money and the little projects right and I think, you know, one of the things I heard of the TSO meeting was, particularly from some of the counselors who've been around for a while who are saying well, what about pothole requests and what about sidewalk requests and like a lot of smaller things that necessary I wouldn't even. I mean I haven't been on the tack very long but I wouldn't even necessarily expect that some of those would come to the tack at all. Like because we're thinking about like the bigger vision in terms of what our transportation system looks like longer term, and where are the key resources allocated but if there's a pothole. Like, you know, that's really not our domain. I don't see that as our domain so much but you know some counselors have interpreted the current tack charge to say that that is our domain but anyway. All right, well, but more on this, I guess, this is this is developed. So, so Aaron just to follow up so it sounds like at this point you were going to follow up with her and just say that we're going to investigate. I'm going to, I'm just going to. Yes, I'm going to respond to make saying look, it's we hear it. It's here. And exactly how it's going to be dealt with is not clear, but, you know, it's something that will keep track of. And sort of, you know, I think that we should be responsible for, you know, answering our correspondences and as a forthright and effective way as we can. And I don't know is often not very satisfactory but maybe the only answer we have. I don't know but we're working on it. I think is closer to what we should say, and maybe is it as the dialogue develops will figure out something more useful to say but for right now it's. Thank you very much. We'll get back to you. Tracy. So just just a quick question. So, since Guilford forwarded you that shotgun request so I'm assuming that nobody else from the town then is also responding to her as well. So like is the town manager anybody else going to also be pending something. A good question. I don't know the note is to TAC directly and so clearly my response now that I understand who else was on the CC list, even though I didn't get. I'll make sure that the response is copied to them. No, that makes, yeah. But yeah, that's a good point. Thank you Tracy. And just to be clear, Aaron. So what are you saying about what like you're telling this person that you guys are going to get back to her. Oh, yeah. I mean, what's the, what's the, like, I mean, I just think that when I was on the TAC this did happen a lot. Like we gave like we don't know we haven't figured out our process yet and we have been moving forward on that process but what's the mechanism and the timeline to get back. That's a good question. Yeah, no, but I mean part of the, the value of copying everybody who's also received this letter is sort of the implicit question hey, you know, we got this letter, you know, because people have an expectation of how things are working. Is that right? And clearly, you know, I'm glad Darcy's is overhearing all of this because part of the responsible definitely be, you know, you know, she'll be responsible for or part of, you know, and Guilford, you know, and Paul. So it's, yes, it raises a lot of questions. And, you know, we're going to answer them as best and as honestly as we can. Darcy. Is there a, is the prioritization list that you said you're going to put it on the list. Is that a public list? Yeah, it has the list. It's not on the website at this time. Yeah. Oh, it's not on the website. But now there's a new website Guilford. Maybe we can. Yeah. Did you notice most things didn't change? Yeah, yes we did. Some of the top level stuff is different. Do you have that handy Guilford just by the way? No, not the website, the spreadsheet with the three, with the three tabs. Yeah, hold on. And actually I have a related question Darcy just, I mean, since the council is, you know, the keepers of the public way and so on. And the TSO is, you know, helping with that and even thinking about changes to the public way policy tonight. I mean, you feel like this is something that should also come to the TSO or the council. Well, just, I mean, because it involves the public way right involves people's concerns about the public way and the council is are the keepers of the public way and oversee public way policies and changes and so on. Yeah, that's received by this. I think this to be mean to Elk Hill issue. Yeah, the Elk Hill. Yeah, that's what I meant specifically. Yeah. This is the list. Yes, this is the list. This is this is the list of how we prioritize things before any substantial work was done on describing how we prioritize things, which is what Bruce and Tracy subcommittee and EVE subcommittee is working on. And I'm hoping that they can speak to a little bit when we get to number nine in our agenda. Nonetheless, the, the, the, I would I would say that the concepts the ideas that were very nascent then and are being certified in the subcommittees matrix do helped organize this list. Now this is this is just, these are just things that that that got up, it became projects. The other tab there the citizen requests is just the list of all the stuff that that came in there's a, you know, a ton of things and the and the disposition of them, many of which is just no sorry but you know this is not something that we're going to deal with right now. Did you say that this is public now or, or that's, I, I know a lot of counselors that would like to see this list. Well, so, so, you know, I see this list. There's nothing at the maybe I want to jump here to the to our next agenda item which is to starts out with with an appreciation Darcy sent sent me a note that was some suggestions that might be helpful to collect some documents. And I think Guilford got to copy this and most of this is is, I'm afraid his, but I wanted to specifically there were there were two things that Darcy mentioned that we would like to discuss regarding the efforts of staff to consolidate residential traffic and parking complaints and TAC or elsewhere. That's kind of what this is, and then guidelines and the criteria that we've developed regarding how complaints should be prioritized and decided. So, the, I wanted to sort of to talk about our response to that now. There's also just Darcy by the way, I've not heard from either Pam or Ryan, any specific requests and I don't know if Guilford got something and I didn't, but there was a you mentioned that they had said that these requests were going to come in. And I was, I was waiting I was hopeful that within the intervening two weeks that I would have seen something specific. What I had intended to was for us to form a response the TAC tonight to form a sort of this very specific and directed response to specific and directed requests. If you don't have those requests, do have your suggestions for which, like I say I'm very appreciative, and would like to respond to them or least form our response. And, and maybe, I don't know, get a sense from you should be proactive and say, look, I, you know, we understand that there's are these questions that are thinking about being asked that here's our proactive response, or not. I don't know how best to, to approach this because I wasn't there. And did, have you heard from the town manager, is he still working on a revised charge. I, I bug him every few days, and I keep being promised, and except for the promises. I've not heard anything. Yeah, well, I mean, if I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I, you know, it's it's a strange thing because it feels like we're, we're seeking a problem that may not exist. And I think that TSO would be really interested to see this stuff. Just to see, you know, how, what a good system it is and, you know, how you do have criteria and you do have this list because this is kind of a mystery to town counselors about how this all works. And I think that we, it's, it's of interest to find to understand, you know, like how things progress on this list and, you know, whether pack makes a recommendation to the town staff, or do you work on it together, how it all works. I think that that if you can, if you can compile some of that stuff that would be good at the last, I think it was two meetings ago. One counselor asked me, you know, what's happening with tack, you know, like, aren't we going to have tack on the agenda and I just said I'm all, I'm waiting, you know, I'm waiting to hear from tack that they are feel like they're ready to come back. So, I think you, you have the leeway to gather your materials and, and get prepared to go back and when you're ready, you can let us know. Okay. Thank you. That's, that's right. Tracy. I mean, I guess Darcy procedurally would it make sense because this list is here and you know there is. So there are some procedures already in place it sounds like, you know, we don't know when we'll hear back about the charge. And it may be a little bit iterative with the town manager but do you think, I mean I know the TSO also has a lot of other things on its agenda, like would it make sense for the tack to come to the TSO. You know, multiple times like for example could like sometime in January come back and discuss at least this element and then come back again or does it all have to be like kind of an all or nothing. Take up a lot of the TSO meeting when I know that your agendas are so busy already. I, like I said, I, I feel like, you know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. You know that whole thing. Well, it really doesn't work 100% right either. Yeah, and actually, yeah, so I mean it's in a way if it's not broke, it is bent because of the shift in how town governance works. But, but it's also sort of broke because some counselors have the impression, you know that basically the tack has a charge that the tack doesn't like live up to its like responsibilities given its written charge from the time that there was a select board. I mean it was listening to the last TSO meeting it was pretty, it was challenging to not feel a little bit defensive for the tack because I mean things have changed since there was a select board like we have a council and they just created this public way policy and the charge goes back a number of years and many of the people who are on the tack then are on the tack now and like there's all kinds of factors so I mean it does seem like it's helpful to go back to the TSO sooner than later in my opinion. Can I ask Gilford please what did you mean when you said it's really not working. Well, I mean, if you're still trying to come together with you how you'll prioritize things. I mean if you look at the big chart that's up on the screen now you have three priorities that you put in over the three years. Those were done but you didn't have you didn't really use your priority system that you're working on how to how to make them that your priority. So the priority prioritizing prioritization system is what has to really one of the things I think needs to be finished so it's easier for you guys to to say this is why we chose this. The three we have on here that are your priorities were easy to say we're higher priorities. The rest of the ones on here were projects that were either left over that were going on before the tack came into existence or have popped up because of the multiple funding sources that may all of a sudden appear and the town staff were trying to get ready for a funding source that might show up. Where is the prioritization process. So we presentation to talk about that but it's not been on the agenda so we didn't feel like we could talk about it last time or this time. Well, so I'm going to I'm going to and this this is this is an oversight on my part which but I'm going to allow our offer or hope that that that you can speak to it. Under our number nine committee comments. It's not what I intended but I think it's that's it's going to be what I'd like to use in this case, and about the pedestrian and bicycle plan. I just totally space that. So that's that's me a culpa. And, but if, if, if Tracy and Bruce and Eve if you have that matrix that you've been working on. I just want to say that at some point, I'm expecting that it'll be done by the subcommittee and would come to the full committee for, you know, whatever, you know, final up and and approval, you know, said that yes we're going to adopt it. And that, you know, to the TSO or to whomever needs to see it. So, is there something we could look at, even if I didn't put on the agenda. The presentation that I've had ready to go for a few weeks. Oh, okay. The last hack. Yeah. And Bruce and I looked at the presentation with ease and so on. So. Yeah, we worked on it together. Absolutely. I imagine of course that's what I would expect. Yeah. So we were ready to give it to the last at the last hack meeting and then we weren't on the agenda. So, okay, so it's it's it's there's still a couple more things in front of it. I don't know. I think it's a couple more things to go at 615. Right. Yes. So let's, yes, we can do this. Let's do this. Yeah, let's do it. Are you ready? Yeah. He's been ready for weeks. Thanks Eve. I just have to find which screen I had it open on. Sorry. There it is. Yeah. So marvels of technology. I'm not familiar to those of you who are on the attack last year. There's a little bit of a repeat, but that's been updated. Yeah. So Eve, can you send me a copy of it? Cause I'd like to send it to Bernie. Sure. Yeah. And, you know, with, with some notes. All right. So, yeah. So the subcommittee is me, Tracy and Bruce. And so this is a working draft of toward a system of prioritization. And we're focusing on cyclist pedestrians and transit users, including people of all ages and people with disabilities, not to say that these modes of transportation are more important than cars and trucks and buses and emergency vehicles. But because we feel like this is a really important thing that the city of Tac has been trying to really help support these modes as a network system that can really support alternative transportation. So we looked at a lot of documents, including background from the attack from the state. And we also went out, sorry. I thought this was going to be on the next slide. You can tell I haven't looked at this for three weeks, out and we researched a whole bunch of other prioritization systems all across the country. So why is it important to improve pedestrian bicycling and transit and Amherst access and equity, transportation for all ages, incomes, availability, documentation, statuses, etc. It's really important to note that about 20% of Amherst families do not own cars, so these are the modes of transportation they have available. There are health benefits. The state and local public health people are really promoting alternative transportation that just gets people out exercising on a regular basis. Safety, Amherst already has compared to other towns in the area, a relatively high number of pedestrians and transit users, but recent accidents like that one on North Pleasant a couple years ago show there continue to be dangerous conditions. We also think that this can really help local business by getting town people both who are residents and visitors interacting with their surroundings because when you're on a bus, getting on and off it stops. When you're on a bicycle or when you're walking, you're much more interacting and seeing local businesses, you're much more likely to stop and see the amenities in town. And we also feel like it's really important to support a transportation mode shift. It's going to mitigate the driving and parking congestion, especially as there's more development in town. It's going to reduce carbon, which we're all trying to do in Amherst statewide and nationwide globally. And there are other kinds of resources that also get used by cars that are just going to diminish as we do a mode shift. So our prioritization system, our objectives was to make it fair, objective, and replicable. So we'd have a system that would basically exist in any kind of project who go through the system and get ranked. And people could look at it, understand how that ranking happened. And if someone else did it, they would come up close to the same ranking. We want it to use accessible, relatively easy to use data, possible modular additions of additional data as they become available. And we want it to result in both individual facilities, projects, and also a network that supports our overall goals. And then we want it also to be able to be a system that can be used for a complete streets grant, which we otherwise have stepped forward. So, oh yeah, so here's where I went through what we all did. We started with the Massachusetts tip matrix. We then reviewed a whole bunch of plans from around the country. Then we developed our goals and approximate scores out of 100. Then we dove into the detail metrics. And then based on these metrics, we condensed altered recalibrated goals to refine metrics. And along the way, we uncovered recommendations for ongoing practices, standards, data gathering, and we collected these organized and prioritized based on our judgment of Amherst needs and resources. So last winter, we gave you a well-developed outline of a scoring system. I'm going to show you an image of that in a minute, and key metrics for projects. And we reviewed key concepts and overall scoring. LTS's level of traffic stress, LOS, is level of service. And we pulled these together in a way that we're proposing for Amherst that's a little bit distinct from other communities. This was the point at which you presented to the District 5 meeting that time at the Crocker farm. I don't think I gave this slide, but I gave this this point in the process is where we were. Yeah, yeah. And then we also presented in and the TAC approved recommendations for ongoing budget lines, town administrative support, and TAC work goals and needs. That's what I was referencing when I mentioned that one of our recommendations was a part-time multimodal transportation coordinator that would be on staff. Since then, we've worked to refine the matrix in the scoring system, but we're still not done. And what we've really decided is we do not have skills and experience to refine some of the numbers along the way. So just to go over what it looks like. So the level of traffic stress and level of service guidelines in most towns, they have four levels. And when they did our bed and bike plan, the PVPC also analyzed with four levels. And the fourth level is the most stress, the least level of service. But if you do that, then something like East Pleasant comes up as a level four, which means it's like the worst possible. But if you think about East Pleasant as a bicyclist, and I've biked on East Pleasant many times, I'm thinking of the part where you're beyond where the sidewalk is, right, north of the park heading towards Pine Street. It's pretty manageable compared to, say, the highway. So we decided we actually needed, instead of a four-tier system, we needed a six-tier system in which level three or four for an active, confident adult bicyclist might be okay. But five might be like Pine Street, which is narrow. A really strong, confident bicyclist might be able to do it, but you don't have the shoulders of East Pleasant, which would be more like a four. And then six would be like a highway. So we decided we really needed six tiers to differentiate and to kind of incentivize moving a Pine Street towards an East Pleasant, as well as an East Pleasant towards a, I don't know, what's a better one, East Pleasant south of Pine, south of Village Park, right, where it has the sidewalk. So what we tried to do is we, like, describe, we have the numbers along the left, we gave it sort of a couple words that kind of describe it, then a little more description of who we're thinking about, a description of what the root looks like, Amherst example, and then this is the place where it really hits the road, so to speak, where you define exactly what it looks like in place. And this piece is really important because this is ultimately going to be what decides what we're aiming for each of our projects and intersections and sidewalks and streets and bike lanes and how we score things is going to be based on these design standards. So this would be for a corridor, like a straight shot, this would be for an intersection, and this is sort of other things. So this is one of the things when I presented this last year, Kim really, you asked a lot of questions about, we don't have to differentiate bikes and pedestrians. I was really trying to avoid that. I decided you're right. So this is the bike one. So we also have one of these for pedestrians and one for transit, but I didn't bring it up because I think this kind of gives you the sense of what we're trying to do. So this is one of the things that we decided we just really need help with someone who's dealt with these kinds of systems in other towns and cities to really help us define exactly what this ought to be. And then what it all goes into is a matrix that looks like this. So the level of service or level of traffic stress, and again we're bringing those together into one system, comes up to maybe 30 of 100 points. So Eve, I think it would be good if you just sidetracked a little bit and described how you're bringing those to the old version of level of service to this one. It's important. I also have to leave. I'm very sorry, right in the middle of this. I need to know more about this, but gotta go. Sorry. Thanks so much Darcy. Thank you Darcy. Thank you for staying as long as you. Hi. All right. Well, I think everyone else has seen this, so maybe I don't, I don't know, but well Marcus review. I don't know if Marcus has seen it there. I haven't seen the final version, but I certainly, I certainly gave comments when we were kind of going through it last year. Yeah. So this is the LTS LOS. This would kind of set what we're aiming for, and this is where we actually would rank projects. Yeah. So I just want to say that the LOS normally loss of service or level of service is used to refer to how well or how long you have to wait for the light to change to go through an intersection. And that's not, that's not what this is. This is a level of comfort or some other, you know, definition of service is. Yeah. Thanks for that, Darin. So that has to do with our research. Yeah, but that's the heart of this really. So we're looking to grade the level of service and what we're describing. But that's important. So I looked, I looked around the country for a multimodal level of service, right? Because it's true for cars, it's basically flow through, right? And the best one I found in the whole country was Bellevue, Washington. And they did a whole research on, you know, how has everyone done it, why and what. And they basically found that doing it based on vehicles or pedestrians, like numbers passing in a certain amount of time, like is not useful. Because like if you're a pedestrian and you're walking around downtown, your goal is not to like pass through as fast as possible, right? Your, your goal is to feel like this is a place you want to be. And you might have fun like walking down the sidewalk and maybe not pass through, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. And for a bicyclist, what's really important is not actually how many people are passing through. But does it feel like a place where someone who hasn't been here before is going to be like, Oh, yeah, I'd like to like bike on that path. So it's much more about sort of how it feels to the people who go there and try to walk or bike in that space. So that was really what Bellevue, Washington did with level of service bicycling, pedestrian and transit. And so theirs was really the model that I followed. So I'm just going to cut to the chase. Since you guys have seen this, the rest of it, the details, we decided we really need technical help. And this was actually, we also really wanted Chris to hear this, because Chris was the one who was saying that she thought we might be able to potentially get funding from the PVPC for another grant for some of this technical help. So we want someone to help with that six level matrix and advise on whether these articulate the range of options that will move us towards safe, accessible, sustainable, multimodal transportation. And not just that, but a network that promotes the town transportation goals. Then we want someone to review and advise the prioritization system, so the scoring system, on how to bring that into the prioritization system and to advise on limiting data needs, because other data needs like accidents and population and low income and diversity of population, all would be things that we would need to bring in and we need to have some of what data is available at what kinds of geographic scales. And how easily, because it's got to be easy to use. And then as time or money allows, we think it'd be really great to run a scoring option. So for example, scoring a little bit higher for network connectivity connectivity on that prioritization scoring sheet or scoring a little higher for safety and playing that out to see what kinds of projects would get prioritized over time. And it's not so much just like say, this is what would happen this way. And I don't know, it's like a decision tool. So if we go to the council or we go to a public meeting, we say, you know, we're proposing this scoring system. And here's what it would produce. But if you really want a different outcome, here's the scoring system that would get you that different outcome and tell us which one you prefer. So we don't feel like we have the technical skills to do these things by ourselves. And I apologize that it sort of took us a lot of fiddling to really realize that. But that's the reality and we'd love. Anyway, we're happy to continue. We'd like to continue. We think what we've done is good. But we really can't finish it without someone who's got, you know, we think we need someone who has actually dealt with these kinds of systems before for other cities and towns. So that's what I got. Yeah. So thank you that that's that's super helpful. And I appreciate sort of seeing that again after being asked, you know, the suggestions that Darcy has. And so maybe what I would ask the the subcommittee to do sort of understanding that, you know, you've gone as far as you really feel like you can for now. I would like to have so so so go go ahead, Gelfard. Give me a second to put my thoughts together. So if the subcommittee has it all wrapped up to where you think you're at your stopping point, we do have another source of funding we've been trying to get work out work out. So what I need to do, what I would like to do is I'll get your stuff and kind of have it so I can pass it on to the group we're doing this with and see if we can move that along that way. So that's what I was what I was thinking trying to articulate is something along those lines exactly that there is I would like I'm looking at it again and thinking about what Darcy said and now what Guilford has said is that it'd be nice if we had so sort of that last slide that you said that you showed is that we need help doing sort of expand that a little bit into a proposal or request. And and the earlier slides, for instance, you know the the bicycle version of the LOS LTS matrix to you know sort of expand sort of and maybe nothing needs to be done to that, but that is what I might offer as an example of what we're trying to you know how we're trying to put all those pieces together as part of the the request. I'm sure you've done a grand proposal a couple of times so we actually don't need a grand proposal. No, I think that that last slide just needs to be expanded a little bit to be a little more descriptive of you know what what the work is. For instance, I think it's important now that just saying we're going to do a bunch of stuff to say the stuff we're going to do includes you know safety and you know the efficacy which depends on the system that we're trying to make most efficient you know social justice all those things that you are incorporating in and need to you know figure out because that's the thing that that's that's what I want to tell the TSO is the work that you know we're thinking about putting together. Tracy. So I guess I have a question for Guilford because what he's describing is that that he's already got a process and you know some ideas in place about how to proceed on this so I guess I'd like to hear from Guilford about what he wants from us like even if we have our own vision it sounds like Guilford what do you need and then like to take it to the next step. So if you're if you think you've wrapped everything up as much as you can let's just pull it all together and talk it through so I can forward it on to the people that we might be working with we still have to get it all figured out if we can work with them and get it approved and then but now's a good time to start pulling this stuff together so so are you saying that you're gonna be doing something it's not going to be like in-house it's going to be no it's outside or so would you see that we would still with the subcommittee or the tax still be involved at the next stage of the process or would we just be like turning it over to no they want to they want to ask you lots of questions. Yeah I would I would imagine I'm going to guess maybe request that it's the the whole tack and and maybe the subcommittee as an immediate adjunct at that point so who what is this what is this process this magic process that you're you're talking about. It's just part of the complete streets program this is second phase. Right okay so it's at this it's at the state level. Yeah so you're going to get a little bit of a taste of what the state wants out of it. Yeah right you get to push your pieces in and then try to figure out once we're done with the process how to keep your pieces more prevalent and sidetrack some of the state issues. No we understand. So so what what do what do they need what do we need to give them for that? I just need well from you guys we just need to take what the subcommittees put together and put in the package that I can give to the people we might be working with. The other piece is something we have to do as a staff is to get this yeah get that piece of proof that'll actually let us do it. And then in order for it to be I mean my understanding is order for the prioritization plan or whatever calling it to be submitted to the mass DOT the complete streets program for approval and like move Amherst up a level would be that it would need to be the plan would need to be approved by like council to right and it would need to be like formally submitted to mass DOT is that correct? Yes. How aware is Paul of this? He's aware. Just aware or is it possible that it's engaging his his consideration as he thinks about our charge? No I don't think so I mean this is us this is a small piece I mean whether we whether it's the TSOs charged with this right or the tax charged with this this is something that gets you on the screen to get state I hate to say it everybody calls it free money but they get you on the state stole. Nothing's free okay nothing's free. Well and I think I mean Erin there is a under the mass DOT website there is a complete streets website and just like I wasn't able to find I don't know if it's back but I wasn't even able to find the Amherst plan the policy that was originally submitted but it is on the state website and you can go to the map and like click and download it again and that was the one that I had shared back with Amber when she was talking about the website so it is possible to go to that website and you can see both for the initial plan that come I mean the initial complete streets policy which is like considered I guess tier one as well as any towns that have adopted the prioritization plan I mean anybody can anybody from the tack or the public can look at any of those you know from that website I can send that website around I think I have already but I can re-send it and if anybody wants to see like what kind of what the state's expectations are when they are receiving these and then they give them quote approval so that would be good so I asked for a copy of all of that that presentation that you've just gave for Bruce I think I'm feeling like well I'm going to ask if we are confident that that would be the thing to use as it is pretty much just as it is or maybe with an expanded last slide I still like the idea that's that's sort of the money slide to to say Darcy, T.S. of Pam, Brian here is here is you know the way we're considering making decisions not finished can't finish it without help but here is sort of answering that question and then maybe clean up the the first thing that Gilford showed us the matrix of projects the projects list and send those two things along is the answers to the questions which are not quite asked yet I just kind of want want an affirmation from the committee that that's that's something that that we should do in response to that Erin can we wait a minute on that question absolutely just because sort of moving on to another topic which is what how we say to the T.S.O. and the council yeah no I'm sorry yes you're right I'm dragging us off into a different direction sorry you haven't finished but um so Gilford um do you is there a consultant that you would hire with that is that the idea if the state actually pays for the consultant yes oh great and you have picked out or would we pick out the consultant well we've already kind of picked somebody to use it's done the couple of these already Nelson Nygaard uh no no no Nelson Nygaard has gone through some uh employee changes I don't know I don't they're not really um well they've gone through some employee changes we have we have two I was just going to say that contracting firm that I would love to at least talk to would be ALTA because they did several of the plans that we actually looked at okay we actually we we can talk to them but we've actually kind of already kind of talked to someone who's actually been doing some stuff for us already but we're not locked in exactly okay so I think I don't know how Bruce and Tracy feel or the rest of you guys feel from the tack but um it sounds like potentially a fabulous thing to be able to take what we've done I think we could package it into clearer instructions you know that would not be the presentation style that we have but like you know a little more explanation of this is what we were trying to do this is the specifics of what's still to get done I think we could we could write that out just fine um or we could tell them verbally I think my my question and partly it's just that I'm emotionally attached because I spent a year and a half working on this but like if we pass it on to them do they then sort of do it that what I've seen from consultants in the past is you know they kind of have their way of doing things and they put your specific data in it and they they turn out sort of the thing that they've done before with your specific data and since we're doing things in kind of an innovative way with the six-tier system and stuff like that you know to what extent would would our would our ideas still be part of what they would incorporate and and could we still have kind of you know a strong role in shaping that you get a you get a role for shaping it but if you're going to get take money from the people you're taking the money from you have to kind of put it into there into there they already have their little way of doing it so you will lose some of your uniqueness to be put into the to his mass dot methodology but you just have to and then the consultant will be more than happy to work with you and talk about what what's the little things to change and how to pull it out so you're doing two things here you're getting their help but you're also going to make a document that the mass dot is going to accept and put you in the final stage three of the complete streets program and then you just pull it out or you take it and you readjust back to the key things you have going on and I really don't think I really don't think in the prioritization part it really is going to change that much so some of the bigger changes are going to be and actually how we present the projects once they're prioritized and how they're kind of put together in the mass dot format that's the biggest that's the biggest difference I see right now yeah I mean it sounds to me like the the what we're asking for the the but we're asking for our technical bits and pieces that you know don't change you know it's DOT can handle them what's innovative and I think what we can't lose is what their value is to us and and that and maybe what they don't address are some things that we think are important to do technically because they don't do them but everything else would be handled so so I guess I didn't I didn't hear the the answer from the subcommittee yet as to um how much more work they want to do to make it ready for that complete streets project I mean as a member of the subcommittee I mean maybe we can put it on the agenda for next time or you know and have something that's brought I don't know well or you know just move it along I mean in that I mean obviously like as you've said like there's some changes we would make and so on um I'd be I'd be happy to be for real um Guilford is there is there a time that we're pushing up against or is is uh January when our next meeting is 14th the 10th that's fine there's other things we're pushing up against but not you guys aren't pushing up against not that one okay um Guilford you want kind of a written document that would go to the consultant about what we've done and and what we see we're we're handing to them and what needs to happen now your presentation is a good good first introduction to how you're trying to do it and then from there we can let them come back with what they're asking for and questions and if they want the more detailed information which they probably will but that's a good I think a presentation would get them started well and I think I guess one question to Guilford is like would the consultant be available to meet with the attack or the subcommittee you know to just kind of overview like what what has been part of our process for a while right so I mean we can't put together something written but obviously like if you just look at leave slides you know without the context of what she's talking about you're missing a big part of the vision there too so no they have they have meeting time and all that good stuff that'd be great so maybe one question is whether the tack would even want to do a motion whether you guys would want to do a motion to approve that the subcommittee could go ahead and talk to the consultant about this or do a meeting with or invite yeah I yeah I don't know I don't know what we'd be asking for specifically yet to to to know how to to answer that motion but so I would I would maybe I would propose that as part of our work at our next meeting which will be next year that we work through the details we talked about working through and we get we try to get Gil give Gilford time to describe understand and describe to us what our role subcommittee of TAC's role would be in that process and then take the decision that yes that's what we want to do formally right I mean I don't know I don't I don't I don't feel like I have enough to grab on to to say this is what we're going to go ahead and vote on it and and put into our minutes that we're doing I don't want to put things off I know that that's not well let's put it on the agenda for next time and that I mean maybe the subcommittee if we're not meeting until the 14th which is like almost a month I mean maybe the subcommittee is it the 14th it's not the 14th I keep saying that but I think I'm wrong I think it's the 7th or the or the amber nose amber nose she tried to set me straight earlier and I just was not having it Kimberley you're you're trying to get a word out of twice there Kim I I am delighted by our very productive conversation I am being tested by my family to come yes what's that before I ask Bruce for his motion just one quick thing are we comfortable with those two things to show them to the TSO as to give them to answer the question is well what do you do yes that's what that's what we're doing yeah so wait so we're talking about sharing Guilford's document with a priority list right that's what we're sharing our document but yes all right that document the document the document that Guilford keeps on his computer yes that one this the secret yes it's a secret document so that document and the slideshow that Eve just just showed us we could do that but I guess I if we're going to tighten it up before we're taking it to the consultant I mean the TSO isn't meeting again until I think like the 7th or something too so I guess I would prefer not sharing it sharing the interim product with the TSO at this time I prefer to just show that list that you know that other list has been worked on for so long and so on and that but I feel like it's very important to let them know that oh absolutely structured way of putting items onto that list definitely definitely very very important not I agree and Guilford was saying that the presentation as it is would be enough to start with okay we don't need another document oh and I'm only I'm only asking because I think that as it is it is very useful and we'll answer the questions that the TSO are asking especially if we're clear as to where it is in its formation well and so maybe we could be on the TSO agenda in January as well and I might even ask for that that would that would make sense yeah I mean it wouldn't be accurate if you represent that is that's everything the TAC does but no I mean I guess I guess the two questions that they asked the only thing with the slideshow is I just feel like it's I mean if we were going to share it with TSO I guess I'd rather do that live personally than you know an eve or or something I mean just rather than just send them the slideshow like without oh yeah just kind of larger context is what I just don't want because it sounded like Aaron was trying to collect materials to just send to TSO if he wants to do that with the priority list that's fine but I just don't want to have the whole our whole prioritization system kind of put at that level and then have like TSO members while we're not there like kind of pick over the details when we're not actually presenting it I would prefer it be a presentation personally yeah I agree Kim has to go yeah we all have to go okay so the answer the answer so the answer that I'll take is that we'll I'll send the projects list sort of get that out there and and describe the the rest of it for now yeah well I would also ask to get on on the agenda and as soon as we get on the agenda being on the agenda three things then we can send out the presentation right to get them to confirm us on the agenda and then we can play ball well or are we you know presented and we right well I mean but I would absolutely be good for you to send it out prior to no of course understood yeah I mean the TSO they have a packet that they put online I'm putting everything that's coming up so okay I've moved to a turn thank you thank you thank you everyone thank you everybody happy Hanukkah thank you thanks thank you Amber oh we're still here thank you Amber thank you Amber happy holidays you too happy holidays