 Hello, Dr. Shippee. I am so happy to have you here. And for everybody listening, first of all, just welcome. This is beautiful Saturday in Boulder. I don't know how it is where you're at, Ann. But beautiful weather here. It was like 90 degrees when I got in my car. I don't think it's quite that hot, but it's very warm and sunny and beautiful. So as always, if you need more information about me, www.jillcarnihan.com. And please feel free to share. We're going to share all of Ann's links and her websites and all her information. So stay tuned and I'll be sure and put these in the links so you'll get to know her. And I want to introduce her as well. Just a little housekeeping, feel free to share. You can always watch this later so it is recorded. And you can go listen later if you missed the first part. And like I said, please throw in your comments, questions, anything at all that you'd like to hear more about. And I will try to be watching that on the side so that if you have questions, we can answer those in real time. If we do miss your questions, just put them in there and we'll come back. Both Dr. Shippy and I, we can throw in links to our websites or any questions that you might have on that. So anyway, here we go. So Dr. Shippy, I want to introduce you and then we'll jump right in. So Dr. Shippy, first of all, the personal thing is she's a friend. And I remember when we first met and just feeling this like connection. She's an intuitive wise soul and we both will talk today about mold experiences and mold toxicity. And our experiences with this, that's how it kind of led us both to this journey. I don't think you ever pick mold, mold picks you. So we have a similar story in that. But now we're kind of parallel. She's in Texas and I'm in Colorado and maybe someday we'll be nearby each other. But we both have a very similar passion and just a similar even way of dealing with a patient, a similar personality. So it's lots of similarities. And I remember just thinking what a special, beautiful soul that she was when we met. And as we've become friends, it's just become even more beautiful. So you will enjoy it. I feel so blessed to have you in my life. You are such a bright light. I feel the same. It's solely mutual. It's like this incredible energy. And the longer I live, the more it really is about energy, like energetically people like even, you know, I don't have a lot of negative people in my life. But I try to keep that to a minimum because the beautiful positive energy is so sustaining and filling and growing. And those people that are energy vampires, God bless them. But we need to, you know, make sure that they're not they're not too close at hand. So I'm going to formally introduce you and then we'll jump in. Dr. Chippy is on a mission to educate and help people across the world live their healthiest, most optimal lives possible using cutting edge science research and genetic information to find and treat the root cause, not just symptoms of illness. And if you've been around here, you guys know that as functional as we do this very well, and is is a leader in this. She specializes in environmental toxicity preconception and reproductive wellness and mold exposure. And that's a great combo. I have two close friends recently that had miscarriages because of mold. This is, I think you've heard me talk a little bit about this. Hopefully we can go into that and because that's such unique thing. She has designed life altering treatments and protocols for her patients using epigenetic information, which is the study of DNA expression and the body's incredible ability to express or repress helpful or detrimental genes, as well as heal, prevent and even reverse certain illnesses. Now what's so cool about her. She's a ex IBM engineer. I'm ex bio engineer. So we've got these really cool combinations. And I've never met anyone like and that like takes she's a scientist at heart. She is a processes person. She sees complex problems like I do. But then we also have this real spiritual intuitive sense that we kind of meld. And it's so rare to find that in someone like you and. But I think it's the most powerful way to see patients because the science is great. We love the science. We have our foundation on good medicine, but this toolbox and being able to intuit and release sense where the patients at it's so important isn't it. It is so important and a lot of times when I do get to get a lot of data on the patient. There's a million different directions you can go in and different things to prioritize at different times and I think that's a lot of times where the experience but the intuition comes in it's like okay what do we do next with the data that we have that is so powerful. It really really is what I've seen is like the experience of 20 years of the science over and over and over again and then now at our age, which we won't reveal, but our experience right. Since we both had birthdays right now right this week. So we have both Gemini by the way and we are both celebrating June 1st and June 4th we both just celebrated our 29th birthday can you believe. It's like. 29 years. I love it I love it and you look 29 you look amazing. Oh, back to that whole so we've had the experience but what I find is now that we've had the experience. We can take all of that experience which drives the intuition and look at problem solving and data collection in a different way because I feel like when you use your analytical mind you can process 10 or 20 or 100 or 1000 pieces of data and do it pretty well like a computer. But when you tap into the intuitive spiritual sense of what's deeper emotional you actually feel someone where they're at. It's a whole different level of information gathering and I feel like it's exponentially like literally millions of pieces of data instantaneous in the subconscious. And how I look at it is like I have the sense of oh gosh I think we need to move in this direction and then I use the science to prove it like I'm not just out there guessing right. But I'd love to hear your take on it because you're so similar in this. I know there's just sometimes. Sometimes. So when the first time I see a patient I get to spend about two to three hours with them I think you do the same kind of thing. And I give them a plan for the dietary changes I'd like them to make supplements I'd like them to take and then test them to go. And I love it when my initial impression of intuition and an impression of what I think they need when the data comes back and it backs that up. And then also the patient starts to feel a difference with even just that initial past doesn't always happen. But when it does it just is so affirming that you know this what we you and I both believe what when the body has what it needs. And it's not overwhelmed by things like mold and other things in the environment and we've accounted for the person's genetics. It really is amazing how much they can feel just dramatically. Yes, I love that and I feel the same because it's always like you have that first visit and if you just give them you know a load of tests to do and not a lot of help or helpful information. So our job in the very beginning without any labs necessarily they might have brought stuff in but something is just their story and just us being really good listeners. I'm sure you found the same like listening is our most important skill right. That's one of my favorite things like I love the new patient visit because that really is my time to listen. I was listening every visit but that in depth where the person can just everything that comes up like it's like they're emptying their basket and they're handing it over to me and it's such precious time. I love the user were precious because I feel I was going to say the same thing in the sense of like it's almost like we have this I'm getting goosebumps now. But like we have this incredible gift that people are giving us this in like rarely to someone share the information, the types, the depth, the past child experiences, the illness, the trauma, I mean everything and sometimes we get to sit there and really hear such an expanse of their entire lives and I find it so sacred. But if we create that space and I definitely do ask questions but a lot of times I'm just listening really wow tell me more and those kind of things open it up and then the patient really knows the answers and there's in their bodies right. So don't you find if you listen closely they'll tell you where to go they'll tell you the direction they'll kind of guide that anyway and usually they're right. I mean often they know. It's interesting because that's usually the case where the person's intuition when they really have a chance to express it. It bubbles up and comes out whether it's you know they're really aware of it or not but it's like their bodies will start to share. It's so fascinating too because the place that the person has the most resistance to like sometimes giving up like giving up dairy or something like that they're like no no that's not a problem for me. The more resistance that we hit on something sometimes that's a really important place to go to and I noticed that in myself too. When I have resistance towards oh yeah I know I should do that but you know maybe it's not that bad. The biggest story after story in my own life. I remember years ago after the Crohn's diagnosis gluten I took out that was easy dairy was so hard and it was so essential but I like oh I love my cheese even though I didn't drink milk. It took me a few years to give that up but it made such a difference for those of you listening if you're like feeling this resistance. It might even be like corn or something random but a lot of times there's truth there and then the same thing with even as a clinician. I remember like I would have never chose to go into mold illness like I said that's right like that's no first of all I don't want to know about it's complex it causes trauma. And it's also something what I found there's nothing else for like you could lose your house or your livelihood or your job or your car or it really can be massively devastating to the patients. And so for me as a clinician to come in and say yeah your house is a problem and it's got to be remediated you have to move or you get to stay but it's going to cost a lot of money. The financial implications and even the implications to a patient's safety are so profound that it's a whole nother level of getting involved in their lives. And then I found in the beginning I wasn't 100% sure so I'd be afraid to tell them how serious I thought it was because you don't want to be the one to tell someone to move when they don't really have to move. Did you ever encounter that like fear of oh gosh how much do I push and what do I say. So much responsibility sometimes to have have people really do what's right for their health like that initial med to yes to make that investment or to make those big changes. And yeah it sometimes it's especially when you know how hard it's going to be for the person to to make those changes. It's it's really really tough. And yet as you've had more experience like me I'm sure you're getting more and more confident because you see the ramifications of the seriousness like for me I'm finally like wow it's either you know if they want to be healthy. I have to be more bold and I've gotten a little bit more confident in recommendations but it's still hard. In fact I used to like do everything else first. I can think of and then be like oh okay well must really be a bigger deal so we need to do that unless I don't wait as long anymore. I agree more. I'm really shifting towards you know what. It's everybody even if you don't have any symptoms yet from it it is it's changing your gene expression it's damaging your mitochondria. It's you know it is not a positive trajectory we know I'm hoping at some point that we can all all have built at homes and offices and places to be that are constructed in a way that we don't have a chance of having mold that's my dream. That'd be amazing. And the sad thing is it's so prevalent I have a colleague like professional colleague who just tore apart their master bath and that builder literally slapped on tile onto drywall with no barrier no nothing and it's completely moldy all the way through the sub four. I mean it's horrendous and this is like a real well-known builder. This is like not it's a really good situation that you would think but it's horrendous so super common. So can you hear me OK. It's so yeah. Yeah I think we're good. Sorry I'm not in my office and so maybe. No I think we're good. Internet. You're worried. I would love to hear your story of how did you get in touch. How did you experience mold if you want to tell us a little bit more about your experience. Yeah so a little over 10 years ago I got to go to one of the environmental health symposiums but Bill Wright put on and his topic for that year was was. And I knew nothing about it but something really nudged me to go. And at that point in time there was so little out there about about mold. You know what we learned in med school was that if you're immunocompromised it could cause a major infection and that's about it. So I. After the conference. Oh I'm missing this in a few of my patients and I had a woman who had had you know major hormonal deceptions. And it turned out that they were in a new house less than a year old that the windows weren't installed properly. So they had mold around all their windows. And then we experienced a bunch of heavy rains in Austin and I had a hidden leak in my house and an obvious one in my office. And but it still didn't dawn on me that that what was going on. I started having severe neurological issues with my right arm. I was so weak in my arm that I could hardly hold the glass if it was full drop it. And my hair was falling out I had so much pain in my body that it was hard for me as my kids were kind of young at that time for them to hug me. And so I started you know calling my colleagues my functional medicine colleagues hey what do you think is happening to me I can't figure it out. And I went to a hand specialist and a neurologist and nobody had any ideas so one day it was one of my worst days. It was a Monday morning and I just I had dropped a glass when I went to take my supplements and I got off to school and I got back in bed for a few minutes and I just was praying that I you know I just felt like I was not going to make it if I didn't figure this out. And one of my last appointments that day that the patient was feeling amazing she had had environmental ailment. It's doing great and she's I we were almost done at the point and then she appeared across the table and she said Dr. Shippy. I think you have she told me I'm in your house and I want to come to your house after you get up work. And did I ever even tell you the story. She's like what's your address. Wow. And she met me there so she was just highly intuitive. And even though I thought I had it all together. She obviously could tell that I didn't. And she walked in she walked into the house and within a few minutes she had to get out and she you know really didn't feel well for a couple of days after. I had a really bad Chitomi and problem in my house and she's like don't take any of your belongings get your kids out and get out now. She was like read me to riot act. And she was right. Like I thought it a little bit I thought I could clean some things that I couldn't and it was a little journey and realizing you know because she that's the most that she had been exposed to and there was so little out about it at the time. But after, you know, and increasing my detox pathways and being out of the house for a few months I, I totally healed. Wow. And that catomium. Gosh, that is, I think it's worth some stack evacuees. I think it's really nasty mold. I think it's the worst the worst neurologically and immune system wise. In my experience this might just be me and my genetics but I call it the narcoleptic mold, because whenever I get exposed to it I want to lie down no matter where I'm at in fall sleep. Both stacky and Chitomium. Chitomium particularly. Oh, that's fascinating. So it's like literally knocks and it's just like a, it's not like a petite like, oh, I need a nap. It's like, I don't care if I'm on a concrete sidewalk, I'm going to lay down and sleep right now. It's like, it's literally almost narcoleptic to me. Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. Did you feel like foggy and tired? If you look back at this. I, you know, I think, oh, Monday morning I'm going to feel great, but I could hardly get out of bed. Wow. And yeah. And you probably know, I just had my boulder flood 2013 my office flooded, but now in hindsight it's so clear the basement was damp and had probably mold issues before the flood was flooded in the flood. And then my office was built right above an unfinished crawl space. Like now. Oh, yeah. And I'm sure it was loaded it and it actually I think had some water or definitely dampness if not like standing water like right under my floor. Now again, I didn't even know this shortly after I've learned it since then. And then this is the funny thing. So I had this older building probably in the 70s. And my builder redid just my office and it was beautiful bamboo floors and brick. No, actually a stone inside the office. Like it was beautiful, but he threw bamboo right on top of old carpet over and I know right who does that. Like looking back on like that was crazy and it was soft right when you walked on it. Duh, every time I walked it probably squished up mold spores. Like now that I know something about construction and blurring I'm like who in the right mind would put bamboo right over carpet. I don't even know. But now it's so clear and like you I had brain fog and fatigue. I had rashes around my eyes rashes all over my body really and I had red irritated eyes congestion respiratory issues. I didn't have a lot of neurological symptoms. But if I look back find motor like I got in a lot of like tiny little accidents. For example, I pulled into a parking garage every day I've had the same parking spot for five years and right around the time when the mold was the worst I hit the concrete pole right next to my spot with my brand new Lexus. But the funny thing was like, I had no perception so that whole ability to perceive and sense space and time perception issue is one that I think is so easy to overlook. As one of the symptoms of mold exposure. Because I think it I've seen it multiple times now like it really does increase your risk for having either a minor accident like that or a major one I had a patient who had a major. We were in the process of having her, you know, start to get treated. And she had a really bad, really bad accident. Yeah, I'm not surprised as you've probably done some neuroquants like I have and we see these parts of the brain that are, I mean there's a lot of so there's hypertrophy and atrophy. So neuroquant let's go back to that so often we'll do an MRI the brain which is just a normal picture magnetic resonance imaging of the brain that doesn't show a whole lot with mold by itself. I would say I sometimes see abnormal white matter changes that are non specific. Do you see that in. Oh yeah, and then yeah, and then just changes in sizes of the different parts of the brain. And then another one is just a computer program that takes that takes that picture and takes each sphere like say they take the hippocampus, they blow it up into a circular size and say what's the volume. And they know the standards over your age ranges so your hippocampus might be shrunk for like 2% of normal and your white matter might be hypertrophy which is enlarged and inflamed so what we usually see is patterns of, you know, central like temporal lobe or frontal lobe or different things that are hypertrophied or swollen and inflamed, and then some things like amygdala which is responsible for fight or flight or hippocampus and actually shrunken. Now some of the worst cases I see are the small hippocampuses because that's all about memory, and we see that with dementia and mold related. Any thoughts on your findings with the brain or patterns that you've seen. I think just kind of a side note I think some if somebody is kind of in resistance about mold being the issue. Having those findings and showing that it's actually affecting their brain is one of the ways to kind of get their attention if they're resistant to it and not really, you know, wanting to go there. But I do think it's kind of scary for people to see oh my gosh my brain is changing but I guess the good thing is that with treatment that things can go back towards normal. You know, are you seeing that to where you absolutely my personal life five years ago and then recently in MRI to compare and there's a lot of really good changes. My hippocampus when it was normal it never was atrophied but it increased by 34%. So that was I was like, I know, I know we're going to talk about this because there's like a there's a case study here. I'm like, wow, it went from whatever that would be 50 to 84% somewhere in that range. Like I was like, wow, now there's other things that aren't normal. You're so smart. No. Okay, I'm going to be real personal now. So I've never shared this but there's another little tiny section sliver of the brain that's actually we don't know a lot about. It's I think the superior temporal lateral sulcus or I might be saying that wrong because they don't have it in front of me. It's one of those. We don't talk about a lot. Mine was kind of lower percentage. I'm like, well, what is this responsible for? So it is responsible for recognition of behavior and anticipating like good or bad dangerous non dangerous on people's faces and in their behavior. Now again, there's no science to say that that being small on my MRI means that I will actually have any of these symptoms. So we're kind of really going out there on the limb, but I'm going to share something really funny. Then there's another another study on that that links it to a little bit of cognitive lack of cognitive empathy. Now emotional empathy is like you feel someone deeply you feel their pain or sorrow or whatever. Well, this was cognitive empathy, which is like putting yourself in someone else's shoes. And in 2015, it was a little bit abnormal on my brain probably from the mold. And in hindsight, I literally called my ex husband up when I got my brain MRI and said, Aaron, you know, can you tell me more about my behavior? I do remember in the mold it was so traumatic and it was so stressful. And I was so sick that I kind of just did my work and slept in eight and that's all I could do. I remember feeling really overwhelmed and like you were in survival mode or viable right. And everybody who experiences that is you're just literally getting by and I kept up patient care with no problems or anything like that. But that's about all I could do is survive. But during that time, he went through his own and he would share this publicly Lyme disease and diagnosis and then past concussion. So he had brain trauma and unresolved old trauma and again, he would be glad to share that. And so did I at the mold. So it's like, like that we laugh about we're we're good friends now and we understand like the divorce caused us both to awaken and it was meant to be it was okay. We're in great spaces. But when we look back and analyze the things that led up to the divorce, it's so interesting to me because he had brain damage and I had brain damage and some of it was related to relating to another person. And I look back and I think the mold was partially responsible on my part for not being able to completely connect on the level that I normally would. And don't you see that with your patients like the relationships can really be torn apart. Oh my gosh, it's so difficult anyway just to navigate the health part of it the financial part of it the stress part of it in America, especially when, you know, one person's really severely affected and the other person it's not. It can be and the other person looks totally normal. That's why things like doing the MRI and and doing some of the lab testing and that kind of thing can really help the partners to understand. And then the other thing that I find is that a lot of times the partner that didn't think that they were affected. Once they're in a clean environment again they actually realized oh yeah I was getting more headaches or you know I was a little bit you know how to shorter fuse I was a little moody or you know things that weren't as clear as clear yeah. So what would you tell people that the question we always get I'm sure you get the same as well what's the one test for mold. If there were such a thing, but how would you put the people listening right what's the one test what what's your approach as far as testing and kind of trying to find out the answer besides your history which is a big clue for us. What else would you tell patients to look for it really depends on someone's budget. And, you know more and more. Like I just had somebody this past week where they had no water damage in their house. But they haven't fixed properly because people don't a lot of times don't know you know drywall gets wet, and you're in almost any climate. And it doesn't get dried in 24 to 48 hours it's more than likely going to have mold, and then if you've had an ongoing week, get it right so the least expensive thing is to take care of the house. Take care of the building, you know I just get that inspected and evaluated and you know if you have these common sense set of symptoms, and you have a known exposure. Then let's treat you and let's get better if people have the resources, then I really like to do a combination of testing it's really hard for me to just do one. So I like to do the microtoxin testing. I like to see what their baseline is without any assistance detoxifying. And then with the real time lab when I use that company I like to do some type of a boost to see if they've just been storing it up that hardly any is coming out. So some either doing hyperbaric or saunas but my go to is to do a really nice dose of liposomal glutathione. But, you know, it's really, it's nice if we can do both the real time lab and the Great Plains together because the Great Plains uses a different technology so sometimes they pick up things that the real time won't and they have more microtoxin that they test for. And then I'm also really finding some benefit with the Progene DX Shoemaker's newer lab that he's using. It's also another really nice piece of the puzzle to see the up regulation and down regulation of certain genes and to see how severe people are. So okay, this is the chemical engineering side. I know that's why I laughed at the question because I knew you'd laugh people like, Oh, there's no one test, but I wish. Yeah. Sometimes it's not, you know, if there's anything suspicious with with either when people have moved in when there's been water damage just going right to that is is sometimes helpful if you have the right inspector. Yes. And that's been the pain of my existence with with finding mold is if you have a mold inspector who just comes in and does air samples. And it's a negative test, throw it out and start over with somebody who does the testing on the desk. I love that. I didn't mean to interrupt you go ahead. Oh, no. And the other thing that I look for with the mold inspector is do they protect themselves if they don't put on a mask and you know suits. They don't understand how dangerous their job is and they're not going to be looking hard enough for me and for my patients. So I need, you know, I really need my patients to look for the inspector that gets it they understand that this really that they can't miss it. It might be, you know, impossible for the patient to heal if they don't find the mold and get rid of it. Yeah. So love every bit of what you just said and I just want to point out to our listeners a few really important things. First of all, we can do all the IVs binders glutathione treatments in the world. But if you are a patient and you're still living in a really moldy environment. None of that it's like bailing out a boat that has a leak where you're just continually kind of maybe making a progress but not even really keeping it afloat. It will eventually sink. So it's so important if you do have an exposure, don't spend your money on the labs if you have a budget and you can't. We love the labs that will help us. But if you have to deal with finances and decisions, get out of the house, remediate the house, find the source and it's hard because none of these things are cheap. Like Ann said, I've seen people where one, two, three, four, even the five inspectors show no issues with air quality testing. And I'm all about a great inspector, not just the dust sampling, but I find that often that dust sampling does more of a historical snapshot. And we can take the early test is a real common test that is dust sampling DNA of molds themselves. The newer testing is called Emma and it's mycotoxins of the toxins that are produced by the mold. They both have value, but neither one by themselves are perfect. I still like the early because I've seen enough of them that I can see patterns, but I will say and this may get kind of complicated. There's a scoring system, which I won't go into, but there's a score at the bottom of the early. That's been fairly unvalid. Like it's not very valid as a number. I don't even use that. But what I do don't use the Hertz me. Yeah, yeah. But I'd like to look at the specific molds that come back and I do still find their valid because I'm looking at ketomium and stackie for sure. And if you have more than five, I'm going to and tell proven otherwise. I'm going to assume there's an issue and on your scoring, that's going to be a huge big deal perhaps. So, and then inspectors again, someone who actually knows what to look at in the floors, picking up your carpet corners, looking at your windows, looking at your basement, looking at your laundry room in your washer, looking under your sinks, actually having meters to test for volatile organic solvents. So VOC meter, checking for moisture infrared cameras. I mean, they should have a lot of equipment too. And the suits, like you said, they don't bring suitcases of suitcases of equipment. They probably aren't quite prepared either. And hours there. Yeah, because it's like a massive it's I don't envy them at all because as much as our work is detective work. That's a hard, hard thing because it's mostly invisible. The worst molds are sticky like moist stuck in the corner. They're not in the air. They're not visible, usually. So they have to be really understanding construction and construction defects. And just because you have a home that's new or multimillion dollars, that does not exclude you at all. Some of the worst situations I've seen in very expensive homes that are fairly new built. So a lot of these things really are hidden. You know, the patient that I mentioned earlier. One window had a teeny sign that there might be a little bit of moisture, but all the rest of the windows. It wasn't enough water to soak through and show any staining through the paint, but every window had mold around it. Wow, wow. And like you said, yeah, although and that's what I see nowadays, like my friend's house who has an excellent rated builder. There was massive issues with construction. And nowadays I think things are put up fairly quickly. Materials are more like cardboard. So they're porous, a lot more porous materials are used and it's not guaranteed that you're going to have a bad builder. But just because you have a new home, sometimes an old 1950s well built, built solid home is way better situation than a 19, you know, or 2010 build something that's pretty recent. I was looking for a house last weekend and went into one that was under construction. They had just been the drywall. They weren't even finished with the drywall. And I could tell that the drywall had gotten wet. There were some water marks on it. So if I had seen it later on where they had already painted over it, it would have already been a mold problem. Yeah. And those are NITIS because they often already have spores that are just dormants. They get water and it's all over then. And we're getting tons of questions and I want to talk about diagnosis, which is great. And I wish we could go so deep into that, but basics are mycotoxins, blood work, genetics, all of these things play into it. And if you have a good doctor treating you, they're probably going to do assessment, whatever you can afford, but within all those realms and you kind of need that data to really make a picture of what's happening and how to treat. We're getting lots of questions about symptoms. So what are the most common symptoms that you see with mold exposure? Okay. So what we're actually getting sick from with the mold are the DOC, the chemicals that mold makes that you can smell usually. And the mycotoxins that you can't smell. There are thousands of them. So different chemicals cause different symptoms. So almost every system in the body can be affected. So it can be everything from, you know, lung symptoms, it can be hormonal symptoms, they can totally disrupt your hormones. And so you might start to have some early menopause, hot flashes, high and low hormones that can affect your thyroid. So take that on for the endocrine since it can cause severe fatigue. One of the common things that I see is body pain. Like what I experienced, there was no explanation for it. It was just my, it was like my body was on fire. So joint pain, muscle pain, muscle desiculations, things like we talked about, it can even affect your vision with the depth perception. Let's see. Gastrointestinal. A lot of people will have flare-ups of their inflammatory bowel disease, but even disruptions in the microbiome, things like nausea, heartburn. What am I leaving out? Brain. Oh gosh, the brain. So many people will have brain fog or headaches. Mood. So a lot with depression and anxiety. It can be huge. Like some people will say, oh, I've never had anxiety and I have it now. Other people will say, I've always been a little anxious, but now it's out of control. Like I just can't get calm down. And pretty much every person I've seen with OCD, they've been in that. Gosh, that's so true. Insomnia. So sleep is a big issue. Or hypersomnia. It can go either way, which means you sleep all the time and can't feel refreshed or you cannot sleep, which is, of course, disruptive. I remember, you know, as I was detoxing, there was a building that I would go to weekly for a church and it had mold. And every day after church I'd be driving home and the world was ending. Like I'm a pretty happy person. I've actually never experienced significant depression or anxiety of any sort. And I remember just like, and when you're in that mood, that state after the mold, there's not a lot of insight, which means you don't know that you're not normal. Which is hilarious. Because I'm literally going home talking to my ex-husband and like, oh my gosh, everything's terrible. Or I'd be like, some small conversation would make me cry. And it wasn't me. And I kind of knew it wasn't me. Like, what is going on? And it happened every day, like clockwork as we're driving home. I finally realized that there was stacky batteries in that building. But it was interesting because especially if you're listening and you haven't typically had anxiety or depression and it's new. I mean, I know another colleague, she's an MD, her and her daughter bought a house in Texas. And they had horrible mold toxicity, got very, very sick, ended up moving out of the house. And later they found out that house, the back portion, which was full of mold, had had two homicides and a suicide. And different people, different families, and I'm like, I believe that was related to the mold. I don't know for sure. But statistically speaking, that would be an almost impossible situation. And we know mold can cause these things. And to me, it was shocking. And she was convinced, she's a neurologist. She was convinced as well that there was definitely something wrong with the house. So it definitely messes with people's neurotransmitters, you know, that sense of well-being to, you know, just so angry. Like if I hear, if I hear somebody's gotten a really short fuse, like they just don't have the capacity to deal with anything that frustrates them. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, the irritability for sure. And then one thing with the brain, we talked about general brain and brain fog. Brain fog isn't really a medical term, but patients know what we mean. So we use it a lot. I use it a lot. My neuropsychologist friend is like, please don't use that term. It doesn't mean anything. But the truth is, for us and for patients at least, they get like, oh yeah, that's exactly what it is. But what I was going to say, Ann, that's very specific is assimilation of new knowledge. So if you're reading a book and all of a sudden you're comprehension of new material, you have to read over and over again. And also short term memory. So you're reading over because you can't remember two paragraphs above of what it was. Or you get to the chapter the next night and you have to reread because you can't remember what you read the night before. Or words, word finding. In my worst state, I would, the cognitive didn't affect so much as the words. I would want to say cat and I would say dog or I'd say, what's that word, that thing that x, y, z. And I described it, but I couldn't get the word quick like that. So those are kind of things that are unique in some ways to mold. And the other thing is executive function. So the capacity to make decisions, like integrate information and then decide what you're going to do about something. And I see that a lot of times, like it, a lot of times, especially when people are dealing with mold and they're having to decide, do I hire this inspector? Do I go with this remediator? Do I just sell my house? Like, you know, all of that decision making, they feel incapacitated sometimes. Yeah, I just, and that's the hard things we have to be there with that. I want to talk about treatments, but before we do, I want to mention one more thing and I'm sure you'll agree with me here. I've seen in the years, almost 100% of cases with mold, there's a trauma component because I can't explain the details of it. But we know it affects amygdala, amygdala is fight or flight and trauma. And I have yet to see someone that doesn't, that gets better, that doesn't deal with old. And when we say trauma, I always like to clarify because it doesn't mean you were abused as a child. It doesn't necessarily mean you had a horrible childhood or difficult parents. Some of the people that I treat have lovely childhoods, amazing parents. But when you're two and your sister gets ice cream and you don't and it gets stuck in your brain in a certain cycle, where you feel unlovable because of that, that could be trauma as silly as it is. So we all have it. We all have little bits and pieces of these things. And what I see is somehow mold amplifies that response. And so there's a lot of PTSD with mold and getting re-exposed and all of those things. So I just want to acknowledge if you're listening and you've had that, you're like, you're feeling maybe ashamed of how hard it is for you to, you know, go outside and go to new buildings or to go, all these things. It's very real. So, Ann, I'd love comments or thoughts about that. I do think that dealing with feeling unsafe where you're living is trauma in itself. Like we should be able to have our little cocoons where we know we can sleep safely at night. But I think our body's kind of anticipated. And so then we, that those kind of PTSD or I call it the limbic loop gets activated. And one of the things that I found as far as treatment in addition, like the two big treatment things I think are getting in a clean environment as clean as you can. And then resetting this limbic system. So either doing neurofeedback, if you have access to a neurofeedback clinic, that's great. If you don't like what I haven't talked about my mold exposure where I developed asthma four years ago. But at that time, my limbic state just like I couldn't like 95% of buildings I walk into and my can breathe. Right. So the using the news, which is a little headband that you're familiar with it. It dramatically changed my set point for how even now years later, my body interprets stressful situation. So when you're in that limbic state, you've got to be, it's truly the survival state. So the body starts to become hyper vigilant. So because it's like you're moving the tribe and you need to notice where the berries are going to be right tomorrow. And you need to come back and pick them. And there's some, some tiger tracks over here and there's signs of the cannibals over here. So it's, you know, taking every little signal to the nth degree and looking for danger and survival. And so we took for the body to be able to ship back more into a restorative state, getting out of bed. You know, more PTSD limbic state is, is a really important part of treatment for a lot of us. Wow, I love that you're going deeper. And from my experience, I haven't used it's funny, I got them used, you're going to laugh. So I put it on and it was like detector, sensor not detected, sensor not detected after like 30 minutes. I want, I didn't do this, but I wanted to throw it across the room and say, this is counterproductive. I literally like, ah, this is so frustrating. I am not getting into alpha state. So I gave it away to a friend, but I might, I might get another one. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that, but that's what happened. It went away. But I was going to say some other tools, DNRS, that's a brutally common program. It is not the only or best program out there. There's, but what it is, is neural retraining. And then any sort of neurofeedback, the be a light is a light system that can retrain the brain. And then any sort of somatic based trauma therapy, so EMDR, thought built therapy, brain spotting, just somatic experiencing. So there's huge ranges of things and there's probably a lot more because I'm not the expert, but all of these things are really critical to healing too. And I see, you know, whatever a person gravitates towards seems to help, like it's just a matter of doing it, whatever thing to help get out of that traumatic state is really, really helpful. And for me, having, I've also done 40 years of Zen, Dave Asprey's brain retraining, which is amazing. I've realized that I, that I actually had a fairly significant brain trauma when I was two, I got electrocuted. And, and fortunately, I guess it was young enough, I was, and resilient enough that I had a lot of rewiring happening after that so I could still do what I do. But I feel like having done this neurofeedback kind of thing, I feel different in my body now than I've ever. I can never remember feeling as far as stress. So I think it's good for all of us. I'm like, I'm going to do that. You got to remind me to actually act on that. That sounds like something I could really use. I feel like my awakening since the divorce and a mold and all these things has been really that I've done a lot of therapy, somatic based therapy, EMDR, brain spotting, and I've done, I didn't do the muse, but I have done other, and they're so valuable, because it really gets you to a place of, and I feel like if I go to a hotel that's moldy, I have a reaction granted, I'm still reactive, but it does not take me down like it used to. So it creates more resilience. I would have said that, but I, yeah, back in January I stayed in a place that really got me, and I think I had gotten so that I was a little bit cavalier about it. I was like, I can handle it now. Right, I know. And I should have taken action, but it's, you know, it's all learning, right? And my body, and I know yours too, like when it's all of these things are lessons that then we get to take back to our patients. Exactly. And I keep learning and learning. And then I think I'll kind of know that, no, there's more lessons. We gloss over treatment as far as we talk about the brain, talk about trauma. Let's talk just a little bit about, and then I'll try to look for questions like the basics of treatment. So we, you have to get out of the exposure. We've clearly talked about that. There is a part of some sort of training your brain and dealing with that amygdala overaction, the limbic loop, whatever you want to call it. And those are all critical pieces. What about just practical supplements and things? What do you like to use? Yeah, I'm, I find that supplements are very, very helpful because we, a lot of times we just can't get these extra needs that our body has when we're, when our bodies are overloaded. So, like, if I had to just pick a few things on a desert island kind of thing, or like, oh my gosh, when COVID was sitting, I was like, what do we need to order a whole bunch of in case we have some online issues? I was like, oh my God, we cannot run out of these things. Are you still a little overstocked from that, making sure that your, your clinic? Yeah. We are in good shape. We are in a good shape on a few things, immune system support, and then detox support. So good. So good. Well, you're a desert island. Oh, yeah. So liposomal glutathione. That is so instrumental for me because I know I have particular genetic predispositions to not make glutathione optimally and then when it gets depleted, so liposomal glutathione. And then binders, and I find, you know, different people respond differently to different binders and often a combination of them as best. So things like pectosal, clay, charcoal are my, are my favorite combinations. How about you? Oh yeah, I, same thing, clay, charcoal, pectosal, there's a glycomannan. There is zeolite could be great for metals and aluminum and things. So I will add that in with those issues. I like the combinations and I feel, you know, there's a lot of talk about colostyramine as a prescription, which is great for ochre toxin, but it's not as good for staki and ketomium toxins. And then I feel like charcoal is actually your best bet for some of the T2 toxins and those. I really recovered with primarily charcoal. I never took colostyramine, which surprises people. I took it back in the day that was really the only protocol that was out there and it made me sicker. So I had very few patients now that I've treated with. Some, if they have tons of ochre toxin, that's all they have. I will absolutely, I use, definitely use it, but it's just not always the only thing and it's not the first line for most people. And especially in and about you, but we tend to see really sensitive people that they're the worst of the worst as far as their symptoms. And I find they don't tolerate those really harsh or more powerful binders. They're powerful, but they're also more harsh on the system too. Yeah. And I feel like what we're doing with the whole detoxification pathway is we're kind of opening a series of dams. And so if we open up one dam too much, it can flood. And so, especially for those of us that are kind of sensitive, we have to start kind of carefully and gradually tight trade up. I find also on the supplement side that there's a lot of mitochondrial damage. So I like to use things like mitochondria and CoQ10 and NAD and things that really be vitamins that feed the mitochondria. And then most people have had some damage to their mitochondrial membranes and their cell membranes. So they really need things like phosphatidylcholine and then good fats. A good fat diet is not what you want to be doing when you're recovering from a mold illness. So good fats like avocado and olives and olive oil and nuts and seeds that aren't moldy. Yeah, exactly right. It's so hard. Well, you know, that's a little thing we didn't talk about diet. I usually do recommend people go on a fairly low mold diet. That's not the cure. But if you're adding to your load by ingesting things like in a coffee that's not tested, chocolate, two of my favorite food groups. But those two coffee and chocolate, they're grown in humid climates, they're commonly contaminated with both pesticides and with mold. So you want to make sure, I don't know what your brand you like, but Bulletproof and Purity are my two go-to coffee brands. Definitely. Bulletproof is, you know, they were leading the way with this. Dave asked, we put out the moldy movie documentary early on that, you know, I felt so great about that because it was like people started to at least become aware of it and a greater number of people watched the movie. And then nuts and seeds can definitely be contaminated if not fresh. You want to store them in your freezer or fridge if possible. And then things like berries and stuff that sat too long leftovers, anything that sits for a long time is a bigger mold issue. Particularly nuts, cashew, cashew and peanut are more moldy than the others. So you kind of just have to be careful and some people will tolerate more of those than others. And then sugar, sugar is so toxic for if you have mold. And grains. It really wanted not eat grains if you can. Yeah, yeah, especially corn, but they're all, I grew up on a farm, so I know that I know how this actually works. And grains are harvested and then they're stored in these silos and the silos, they actually measure the moisture content. It's usually quite high because they had silos have dryers in them to dry the grains, but this grain just piles up there in moist kind of situation. It is always moldy. And that's actually they have certain mold contents depending on where they're selling or buying the grain from. Again, I'm not the expert, but I know enough green up on the farm that I realized, wow, the grains and silos are stored in massive mold issues usually asked for gillus, but it's a big deal. Yeah, what do they call that the silo workers lungs? Yeah, which is a spherigelosis, which I can never say the lungs. Yeah, exactly. Wow, I can't believe we just like blew through an hour like that. Well, so I love the time with you. I just feel so aligned with with how we want to contribute on the planet. And it's such a pleasure to get to visit with you. Thank you. And the same and you are so brilliant. So many beautiful pieces even listening to Mike. Oh, that's a great analogy. I'm gonna use that. Oh, people be sure to output this in the links, but tell me where they can find you. And I'd love to know if there's anything you're up to or any interesting books you're reading. Oh, oh my gosh. Yes. So and should be md.com. And we're putting out blogs and that kind of thing on a regular basis and then on Instagram and Facebook just and should be md.com. You know, it's been an interesting time these last few months. I have mostly been, you know, that nerd sits there at night and evenings, reading about things that I think can really help with resilience. So that's really taken up most of my time lately. I can't wait to have time to just read a book and I know, right? I have a stack of books. Let me think about what's on my stack. Oh gosh, I have so many. Nothing is coming to mind. I am totally unapply. It's usually, again, you bring great science into it. It's probably less than I've been to. I'm like, okay. Yeah, I'm really just like, it's such an amazing time to read through the literature with the lens on that I have right now, because I think the real question for all of us to be asking right now is what can we do to be more resilient. I think what is going to make us so that whatever comes next, you know, with what's going on right now and what comes, comes next, what can we be doing to have, you know, our bodies and our families and friends and colleagues, everybody just be less affected by what's happening on the planet. Gosh, that's a great, great way to end because resiliency, you and I both just always are seeking for that. And I think just leaving you with, we always have a chance to become more resilient because even if we're here and we don't like where we're at, we'll be in symptoms. We can take the next step. And granted, it's great if you have access to doctors like Ann and I. Not everybody does, but there's always things you can do like choose better foods. You can always say clean air, clean water, clean food. And those things, granted, you might need to buy an air filter or get organic produce, but they're relatively easy and less expensive and you can start there. So we'll kind of leave you with that. And thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Ann, for joining me. We will have to do this again soon. Yes, I'd love to.