 Mark, yeah, I'll share my screen in a moment, but just briefly, I will give you a little bit of a background about who I am and how I came into evaluation. As Mark mentioned, in my first career, I was a nurse and it equipped me so incredibly well to be a documentary filmmaker, actually. So I was a nurse, I was a high, I often worked in high dependency and intensive care and communicating. I had to learn to communicate actually without language a lot of the time and which really was tapping into I suppose what Carl Jung would call the field and actually looking at what was spoken beyond the words and feeling into somebody's body. Now that is incredibly important in my job, not only as a documentary filmmaker full stop, but my documentary filmmaker working with people of different nationalities and not English not being a first language. So I can actually, you know, be able to actually ask those really challenging questions as well and know how far I can go and how when to back off and all of those sorts of things. These are incredibly important soft skills that I learned when I was nursing and people's trust really quickly as well, you know, was another amazing skill that I learned. And I don't think I would have actually learned these anywhere else, but in nursing. So, you know, I actually really honor that career and I also honor all of the nurses that stick around in that career because it's a really, really tough, tough job. And yeah, so I honor those ones that stick around to serve the communities. So I will be sharing with you today my experience of working with First Nations people. I've been working in the Storycatchers now for about 10 years. Actually over a decade we've been running that business and I have learned a lot about myself and my own colonization and my, you know, the place that I have in this community that I live in. So I'll be sharing a little bit about that with you as well as sharing the methodology that we have created being Larissa and myself, which you'll find more out about. So I'll share my screen now. And if we've got time, I will be, oh yeah, I will be sharing a video with you as well. So sorry, I have to actually stop sharing that now. Thumbs up, yeah. Yeah, you can see that. Cool. Excellent. So I actually recently read this book not so long ago and I can't actually remember what the title was actually now. Cool. But it was by Hans Rosling. I don't know if you've actually anybody's heard of him, but he stated a quote in there that really jumped out at me, which is the world cannot be understood without numbers. However, the world cannot be understood with numbers alone. And particularly when we're talking about people programs, we will not understand really what's going on if we are only collecting the numbers. It just doesn't give anything just us really, particularly people's experiences. So to honor their experiences, we need the stories. And stories are often not only quite difficult to catch, but they are actually very difficult to analyze too because there's a lot of stuff that goes on beyond the words that are spoken, which is what I was sort of alluding to before. So I mean, as I just stated, the stories is actually one of the most powerful ways we actually can learn about one another and the way we share ideas and build bridges. And it's crucial for how we are evolving in our society. How are we going to do that without story? I was sitting in this elder's circle a few weeks ago and I was watching the elders tell their stories about, it was actually about the yes vote and the yes campaign. And I was just watching the kids and how they were so incredibly engaged with the older generations and the stories that they were telling. And in fact, actually, it wasn't even so much the stories. I was just enamored with the elders full stop. I think that, and I'll talk a little bit about that later on about my experience with that. But story is this amazing way that we can collect our experiences and use it if we know how to measure those experiences. We've also created this methodology that can be used in human centred design, as well as in social impact measurement and monitoring and evaluation, which I'll be sharing with you a little bit later in the presentation. Yeah, so it's an evidence based methodology that uses most significant change, a process which we've integrated film into. And it sort of goes quite a lot beyond that because we've also used it in our reporting methods as well as in our workshops and our engagement processes. So this is some of the country that I work in. I'm so incredibly grateful to work up in this. This is the APY lands as we're entering into the lands. It's a super beautiful place in the world. So I had the story catchers where digital producers are monitoring and evaluation specialists. I have two different monitoring and evaluation specialists that I work with. And one is here in Adelaide, Ongana country, and the other is over. I think she's just moved to the East Coast somewhere. I can't be sure what country she is on now, but she worked very much based in Alice Springs for a long time. As I just said before, we use an MSC process. And this is a really awesome way to uncover those unintended outcomes that we often, you know, wait here if we don't actually collect the stories. I remember this one time I was, we have an evaluation years ago actually, and we're collecting stories around a driver's licensing program. And one of the young fellows shared with me that, you know, because he got his license, he got a job at the local school as the Aboriginal education worker. And because he was a traditional man, he thought, oh, well, actually, I'm going to introduce a program into the school that, you know, if the young fellows come to school every day, I'll take him out hunting on Friday nights, you know. And so, you know, within two weeks, he got the attendance rate up at the school to 100%. He'd introduced culture back into these, you know, in the sense of hunting and what have you into these young fellows' lives. And you got a job, you know, like it was just, how would we actually even know what those ripple effects are of getting a license if we didn't actually take the time to listen to the stories and ask those right, you know, the questions, the right questions. So how we use the documentary film, we use it for project research, participatory workshops, focus groups, community conversations. We also create visual case studies and documentary video reports for the communication and communication content as well. We also create RGI story maps, which is something that we've just started doing recently, which we can map where the stories come from. And all of the yeah, it's a really awesome way to not only map the stories, but to be able to actually show their report in a visual way and an interactive way that they can sort of look at the maps. So using the film, it makes the process so much more accessible and inclusive for all the demographics that we work with. And that very, you know, incredibly empowering process as well for them. So what our methodology measures is our process on covers the unintended and intended outcomes, the barriers, the enablers, the concerns and ideas for change, as well as the program stories for change, you know, another really interesting story that we collected recently from a program that we are evaluating is the fact that, you know, our government services have, you know, translation services for something like 60 different languages, but not one indigenous language from South Australia. And it was like, wow, that is amazing, you know. And so now they've been able to actually, you know, integrate that into another department and say, hey, you know, we need to start getting some services from translation services for people living on country or people living in the city, you know, that have a different Aboriginal dialects as their first language. So it gives community a real voice. And so I'm trying to get off all these things that are on my screen. Negate service providers speaking on the behalf of the end user, or even translating, you know, what they're trying to say, because, you know, obviously, there's a lot of things that get lost in translation when, you know, you're speaking on behalf of someone else. So the community has become a key part of the co-creation of finding solutions and evaluating their own programs. The feedback loops that happen because of this process, which I'll take you more into in a minute. So we're working with the community for the community. We work really closely with our clients, our First Nations people, and really take their lead on cultural and community needs and personal needs as well. So and we create robust feedback. I mean, the whole process of documentary feel, using documentary film, is has this ability to create robust feedback loops between government organizations, funding bodies, stakeholders, communities and individuals. I mean, we're running some workshops at the end of last year, and we had a lot of different departments in the same room as one another and just watching them, listening to them after they had watched the documentaries and listening to the sharing that happened after saying, wow, we can really work together in this. And I can see how my program can really enhance your program and benefit your program. And so it's a beautiful cross-pollination was going on. And it's because, you know, we've got this film that we can share across so many different departments. And then, you know, working together, wow, how amazing is that, you know, to be able to have different departments like Safe Bowl and and Binds work together, you know, like as with the four that were silos. So how it works, how we actually do the evaluation, the process that we take. And obviously, this is a very, yeah, it's, you know, I can't sort of go right into it. But, you know, this is this is how we how it works for us, you know, we do and our clients, we do an evaluation framework. And that is done by one of my evaluation specialists and Narissa, who is nearest consulting. And she works and I work really closely with our client to look at the different sorts of methods that we're going to be using. Most of them focused on participatory approaches. And we look at, you know, the framework looks at the purpose and the principles and the ethics and the stakeholder program logic and the evaluation questions and the data collection methods for both the quality and the quantitative data. We do not collect the quantitative data. Our clients are already collecting that. It's not a part of our tools. We only collect the poll. However, sorry, the quantitative data. We, sorry, I've totally lost my train of thought. Yeah. So in this framework, it sort of focuses on cultural safety and understanding that we are a group of three white women as well. And, you know, how we are in that. And we look at, you know, the things that we have to look at within our own, you know, that self-reflection of how we actually come to the evaluation, which I'll talk a little bit about a little later in my own personal stories around that. And also the different sorts of principles and ethical processes and frameworks that we use in the evaluation. So Narissa does all of this. The framework is kind of like my storyboard when I'm up on country collecting stories from community members and stakeholders across country. So, yeah, it's a very valuable piece of work for me as well. Some big ethics and some, this is in a evaluation that we're working on at the moment. So examples of a recent evaluation, the different sorts of ethics that we've used within the framework and the evaluation is the Australian Evaluation Society's guidelines, the National Health and Medical Research Council's ethic guidelines for research and Aboriginal Torres Strait Island people. The Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island does code of ethics. And also the Australian Productivity Commission Indigenous Evaluation Strategy. And also the new, the new NABINIA Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island Evaluation Framework, which we have integrated into our processes. So consent is a massive thing in our work. And we don't take it lightly at all. It's anybody that consents to telling their story at any point in time can have, you know, that storyboard. It's very, we sit down with them and talk to them about how the stories will be used. So they're very aware, you know, every single part of the, you know, how the stories are used in the sense of workshops and in reports and as in documentaries. And so in all of our time that we have actually been collecting stories across country for the last decade, we've only had one story that's been pulled and that was because of a death. And so, but it's very easy to go back and re-edit and take those stories out of the final pieces if need be without affecting the whole story or the whole report. A lot of our reports are used for years and years and years of the documentary report. So they have a quite a long life. They use them for education purposes and for a lot of different things, refunding, one of, you know, they used it to actually take to apply for a program to be taken out of a perpetual funding cycle into an untouchable funding cycle, which it is now, which is quite amazing. I'm not saying that that's because of our work, but it was part of the evidence base, you know, the story collection. So as I mentioned before, the framework that we use is used to, you know, buy me to collect those stories and who to catch data from, the questions to ask, you know, includes the consenting process. Also the quantity of stories to capture and the visuals to capture as well because it's not just about the stories, it's also about all of the, you know, the visual story telling as well that goes around that so I can pull together a documentary at the end of it as a report. So, you know, it's incredibly important to be able to get these, you know, authentic stories. It's incredibly important to have relationships with the community. And, you know, this is where I work really closely with my client because the other ones that have those really close relationships. And I mean, I am quite not, you know, know enough in the lands now they sort of have seen me around for some time, but that doesn't take away, you know, the importance of having that incredible relationship with my client to be able to, you know, earn the trust of the people that I will be collecting stories from. And, you know, I think that because we've done a few evaluations up there now, they know that we're not ever using their stories out of context. And yeah, I certainly don't take any of that trust building for granted, that's for sure. So, you know, giving the community a real voice, you know, that whole thing of them being a part of the evaluation from the beginning, not only sharing their stories, but giving feedback on the stories that we've done the analysis on and had the workshops and yarning circles around to give them that space to be able to share what they're hearing with us. And then actually be able to take that actually to the to the decision makers and saying, hey, this is their stories, this is what they're saying, you know, this is what this is what their experience is from their mouth, not from anybody else's mouth. So it's incredibly powerful in that sense. You know, and we work really closely with the culture advisors, which is which is the clients in our case, in the APY lands. But in any point, it really really we rely really close, you know, on our clients a lot as the culture advisors, because a lot of the programs that we work with, they have quite strong indigenous teams. So they know the communities. And we work really closely with key stakeholders and the community representatives and any interpreters that we may need to use. Yeah, I'm also actually starting to learn, you know, a little bit of pitch and jar myself at the moment. So which I really enjoying actually, because it sort of gives a lot of context beyond like to the words that I hear all the time, beyond my my understanding of just hearing it in a story. So yeah. Yeah, and our methodology has this really beautiful ability to be able to actually, you know, address those different learning learning styles and engagement styles and, you know, whether people are really interested in just listening or engaging, you know, the verbal, the nonverbal, the written, the visual. So it has it's quite a holistic tool. So I wanted to share with you our analytical process that we go through after we've collected the stories, because it's that's an incredibly important part of our processing. So it's a six part analytical process. And I am the first person that will actually do the first part of their analyzing, which is editing those films that I've, those stories that I've collected on country and editing them into documentaries, you know, into a series of stories that that answer the questions that we've asked. So, you know, there's often, you know, 10 different questions saying so all of the different film questions, there might be 50 different answers to that one question. So I analyze that like that. This is all then transcribed. The transcription and the films are then sent off to the evaluation specialists and they actually code it. So we have quite a large spreadsheet which is all coded, which again is an incredible tool for me. When I then go back into the next process of editing again, and using this coded analysis, I create documentaries that will be screened in the the yarning circles and the stakeholder workshops and staff workshops. So then once we've had those documentaries, usually I have got about three finished products and those those documentaries may range from 30 to 35 minutes say these are usually have three of them, depending on what themes have come up really strongly. But a lot of them are looking at the enablers and the barriers and the unintended changes and the most significant change stories as well. So we then have community members and stakeholders looking at the documentaries in the workshops and the yarning circles and giving their feedback on what they're hearing in the stories. And they're often different people to what we've interviewed as well. So they're capturing other people's experiences of the stories. And then we say all of these workshops that we have have reports that are written on them, which also contribute to my final products as well and the final written reports as well as visual reports. Then after we've done the community members and stakeholder workshops and yarning circles, we'll we'll have to come back into the into the cities or the departments that we're working with. And we do workshops with different department stakeholders and also different stakeholders within the same department. So often we'll do internal and external workshops with stakeholders to analyze the narrative data. So once all of this has been analyzed, our evaluation specialist will then analyze and collaborate the narrative data collected throughout the workshops. And this, the outcomes will be used in the report. So it's extremely thorough process. So different sorts of content that we can create from of the report, you know, for reporting process for reporting products is we have the written workshops and evaluation reports, as I just stated before. So the evaluation report is often just the same as any other evaluation report that you'd see. However, that evaluation report or not, however, but it is used that evaluation report. And also the the workshop reports are used by me for lots of different things. Being the docu video evaluation report, we use that. I often use the executive summary or depending on what the client is really looking for, there might be other products that come out of it as well. So we're not only reporting on the findings, but you know, reporting on things that might be, you know, really useful for interagency or interdepartment, you know, learnings or what have you. So the docu video report is, you know, used and we use the evaluation report to create the docu video report. So as I mentioned before, we actually also have just started using RTI story mapping, where we can story map all of the different stories that we create for a project across, you know, a geographical sort of area. And this is a really beautiful way to actually even show the report in a visual way that, I mean, we all process information differently. And I know, I mean, I was just showing a client an RTI story map that I had created today and she was like, wow, this is so amazing. I, you know, I can so take in this sort of information when it's presented to me this way, because I can map all the different stories, the finished products, I can also map all the the workshop documentaries, as well as the other documentaries that we may have created along the way because, you know, the amazing stories come out. So which is the other docu video reports that we create. So as a part of this last evaluation that we've been doing for this client, one of the the findings or one of the themes that kept coming through was the fact that this program was reconciliation or is reconciliation in action. And we had all these amazing stories to be able to, you know, show evidence for that. And the department had just recently released its stretch plan, its stretch evaluation, or not evaluation, stretch reconciliation action plan. And we, because of the stories, we were able to demonstrate that this was already, you know, this program had already fulfilled many of the outcomes that they were wanting to achieve in the next five years. And so we created a few videos. And if I've got time later, I can show them, but perhaps I'll take some questions in a bit. But I did want to share with you a little about my personal stories and turning the lens on myself and understanding my own colonization and how working on country with our First Nations people has really affected not only my personal and professional life, you know, but also my professional life. Yeah, so, you know, I, because of working so closely with, you know, my clients, my First Nations, that our First Nations, I've been able to, you know, spend many, many hours talking about, you know, lots of different things that are subject. So I probably would have never sort of had the opportunity to talk to anybody about really, you know, being ancestral reverence and, you know, I, because of this, I've actually started uncovering my own ancestor lines and how important that is to me and, and, you know, elders, you know, how important elders are in our lives and how I have a lack of them, you know, in my, in my world. And why is that? And, you know, I sometimes, I somehow think it's quite closely linked to the reason why we, we don't have a lot of reverence for our ancestors either, you know, and, and then understanding that, you know, I too have been colonized and how, how do I actually decolonize myself? You know, which is a lifelong journey really, it's not a journey that that started, well, it is a journey that started a couple of years ago, but I see this journey will continue for the rest of my life. In fact, so much so that I have decided to go back to study and, you know, really want to research into elderhood and why in the West we, we lack, we don't have those elders in our life. Yes, I really look forward to doing that. And, you know, would have I ever asked these questions to myself? So, anyway, so that is a little bit about our processes. And if you'd like to find out more about how we work and what we do, I'm happy to chat more. And if you've got any questions, far away. I noticed, thank you, Susan. I noticed a few requests to see a little bit of the video. So I'm mindful of the time and people liked to ask questions, but would you be able to show us a bit of the video? Sure, I can show. So this particular video here is Reconciliation in Action. So this was a video that was one of those videos that was an unintended sort of story that I'm out of the stories that we had collected. So I shall share my screen again. Oh, am I still sharing my screen? You're still showing the presentation. Okay, so do I have to stop sharing and then stop sharing, go to the video. Okay, so then I have to share my screen again. Here we are. That's it. Okay, it's about eight minutes long. So anyway, we'll see how we go. All right. We understand the complexity of living in a country, we understand what the government policies and procedures are and we bridge that gap to come together and then this person walks out with some form of ID or a driver's license. It is so much bigger than a driver's license because once you have a driver's license or a form of ID, you're not limited. It's just the doors start opening and we can be one of the gateway programs to help people become an adult in the white man's world because we know in Aboriginal culture there's the laws and summaries that they practice to that maximum adult that we can somehow bring the both worlds together by helping them get some more identity so they're able to walk the two worlds confidently. It's being able to participate in society. It's hard to walk in both worlds in the animal world and white fellow world if you don't have a way to get around and to do it safely and within the law so sort of an essential tool if you want to spread your wings outside of Yalada at any stage it gives Yalada people the ability to function in society without you know running into the law or insurance issues or you know all those sort of things that come with the responsibility of driving so it's a massive leg up and bridge between animal world and the white fellow world. The connections and seeing a familiar face as well has been a big contributor to that and the way that the on the right track staff are supporting our people out here in the way that they present themselves. They care about the people and they're making sure that they're doing the right thing for people out here. I think the trust as well so the bonds that they make with the on the track team yeah. Like they come down to the communities and help everyone that are on their own and like they're like they're encouraging us to go for it as well. The staff are friendly they connect well with the people it's good seeing our animal people and those people working for our community people and helping getting their license. They have Aboriginal staff who are aware of issues that are unique to I guess Aboriginal people and they come out and they're on the ground so they see firsthand too. I think it's like a combination of all these things and then taking all those things into consideration and make it into a program that works and I've noticed too that they try to be adaptable too. You can have an idea but you need to listen to on the ground and I think that's one thing that makes it work is they're adaptable with working with the community. The understanding of how to register motor vehicles and things like that like having the service of say LinkedIn as well and being able to talk to the individuals about what it means to have a vehicle have a license it's a lot better when the service is coming to the community. They're actually making an effort to have a positive community and enhance their community within themselves as well. I think it's seeing people's willingness that it's possible that they can be part of this system like the society that people in like it just looks too hard to most people like for me I've grown up in this system and it's too hard. My wife fills out most of my forms for me. So on the road trying to guide people through it it shows them that they can and even though they're being helped they're developing these skills to manage the bureaucracy. People don't realize how much bureaucracy and things involve paperwork and things just living out here. So people need those skills they need to be able to communicate with the government and they need to be able to to work with it and on the road track is especially doing that and we really really appreciate the work that they do out here. Just thank you because you give a service that is absolutely vital to our community and people would be missing out and disadvantaged if you weren't here so it's not just helping them with their on the road things it's helping them with so many other parts of their life you know when you apply for a job when you go to get Centrelink when you want to go see the bank all of those other things you need ID and you need a license and without having on the right track coming out and doing that then you're not just disadvantageing them on the road you disadvantage them for every part of their life. The ability to understand the needs of different communities especially remote Aboriginal community with those language barriers or those self-esteem kind of issues they're able to target certain people in a way that enhance that individual not just for a service point of view but for the purpose of that person succeeding in getting a license whether that's the that elder or the next step of their pace. They're keeping the people out here on more of an equal footing with the people in the city and it's fair it's a good thing we really are we can appreciate that it might be expensive but to us being here and looking at it and seeing the effect on the people we think it's vital you know it's it's an essential service really you know otherwise you know more people will end up in juggling for fines you know and it's unfair you know so as everything's progressing everything's going more online well it's helping people to go along with that you know otherwise people are getting left right behind and it's just unfair and they'll get to the stage where they can't participate in our society and that's unfair that's that's not the Australian way you know well I would like to say be able to help you online thank you for for right right people be able to help you online people thank you for that Susan I did notice a request for a different sort of video if there's time we'll get to that before we look at other videos firstly Susan did you have any comments you wanted to make about that particular video or did you want to take questions yes so that one was actually as I said that was the reconciliation and action video and that was a video that was made because it was it had become evident that in the feedback that was given to us in workshops and in the yarning circles that this program was that doing that and it was just one of those great new stories that it was really important for the program to share with the rest of the the department that actually there is a program in your department that's already achieving all of these things that you're wanting to achieve in your stretch plan here's a program that's already doing it so perhaps you could be looking internally to your programs or you know some guidance on how to run programs for indigenous people by indigenous people right so yeah that's excellent I think Theo you put a comment on the chat about MSc did you want to ask a question or make a comment I did I guess I was really impressed with what you did very professionally interesting in many ways you used the story so that was great I guess I'm coming from a really strong MSc point of view so I wanted to understand the adaption or the variation you made and so just checking my I didn't see anything there about involving anyone in a selection process which is an essential step for MSc oh yes it's sorry yes we do and that's just that's part of the workshops so because we have a video which is just all the MSc stories so we have a video so the videos might you know they vary depending on the client but we might have three different videos that we show in a workshop one might be for enablers one might be for barriers one might be for unintended changes and one might be for a well one it always is for most significant change stories so we have all of these different videos the community or the people within the workshops are the ones that actually get to choose what those videos there's a very small part of our workshopping you know in the sense of it's not just about the most significant change stories it's about all of the stories you know and let's analyze all of those stories and get your feedback on all of those stories now sure the other question I had was um so you involve Aboriginal people in in shaping your framework so it's culturally appropriate you collect the stories and now I guess you've signaled to I was just saying where else they've got involved so they could be involved in the selection process too is what you've said as well sorry ask the question again so I was just trying to get the extent that you involve Aboriginal people the selection process of what sorry the stories in that dialogue process the mse stories or the stories as in who are my collecting stories from oh once you've collected the stories in that workshop process yeah yeah yeah yeah so they're very much part of all of that oh great yeah absolutely they're very much part of that central to it in fact yeah okay thanks thanks Theo thanks Susan anyone else have a question take your hand up or just speak up what I'm mindful of the time but I do have a couple of questions for you Susan so I think Theo kind of was asking something similar so you do all this filming and I presume you capture a lot more film than you actually need to use and so there's some editing who does the editing is it just you and then you present what you've edited back to the community yeah so as I explained in that process um I'm the first person that does the editing so I collect the film I do the first edit it then goes to the M&E specialist they analyse it and give me a coded dictionary really of all the different stories I then actually create documentaries out of those coded stories um that which then get created into documentaries so yes I do have a lot of extra material um yeah so out of all the just to give people I guess an idea out of the the work you do how many hours would you capture and how much would end up in a a documentary you know and it could be all the little documentaries you generate for the project okay so so pretty much okay so pretty much every single story ends up on a documentary somewhere like so it is it's never like so as I explained before so we have say we've got five questions just the ease right we've got five questions we've asked I've collected 50 stories those 50 stories will be um there'll be five questions within those 50 stories I'll have my questions up the top and basically 50 answers into that question 50 answers into that question whether they um actually they all pretty much do make the final because so whilst I collect 50 stories we're not showing the 50 stories to every single community right so we might go into APY West so we just show the APY West stories we just show the APY East stories to the APY East we just show the Yalata Oat Valley stories to Yalata Oat Valley we just show the story so so then they're just getting to analyze their own community's stories otherwise there's too much data right and so then from that that's where we start the the um a weeding out process is not the right word but we start the distilling process of going okay so these are the these are the most important stories in the sense of what with the feedback that would been given from the communities these themes these stories so this it's really the community that determined what are the most important stories that we're going to be putting into the next documentary which then goes off to the stakeholders all right thank you that that helps uh oh we've got a new message or just someone just saying thank you it was great so the other question uh for me so uh you've explained the uh the editing and how it ends up going to the stakeholder is there any opportunity for influence you know either indirectly through yourself or the evaluators or particular parts of the community to bias the results in a particular way or it's no different to any other piece of work it just happens to be on film I think it's actually there's less chance but being biased to tell you the truth because we're getting so much feedback all the time from different like so film doesn't lie number one and it really comes down to the the skill of the interviewer and the you know me being the interviewer behind the camera talking to the person you know like how authentic that story is going to be um they don't shy away from telling me what they need to tell me I'll just I'll just put it that way this um and it just happens to be that this particular program is a very good new story so we heard lots and lots of the really good new stories however we did actually find out a lot of stuff which is about the improvement stuff you know as well that uh will go that's definitely gone into the written report and it will definitely be going into the the visual report but it's actually more about the extension of their services it's not so much about improvements of how they serve the communities it's really about actually the improvements of we need more of this we need to you know we need to improve how we can translate our L's into our P's and so there is a lot of that improvement stuff in there as well I it's that comfortability that somebody has in sharing their story with you isn't it an expensive process and I'm mindful that some people are needing to leave so yeah we'll wrap up shortly but isn't it yeah well obviously I don't have anything to really compare it to otherwise but in talking to people that I've spoken to at different sorts of conferences you know evaluation conferences there's not a lot of difference in my costing to what there would be in somebody else's costing of an evaluation okay that's cool any other questions before we wrap up feel free to speak up if not it doesn't seem to be any other questions I'd like to thank you Susan for the interesting talk and the innovative way you're using film to do evaluation and thank you for those who've stayed the full course it's appreciated and don't forget if you're not a member of the AES or would like to come on to future events just watch out on the website we're locally we're always hosting events and as our other branches and I wish you wealth Easter and see you at the next event