 Welcome everybody. Welcome to Barcelona Technology School and welcome to the Blockchain Innovations Meetup. So we are glad to host this event, this Meetup about blockchain. I'm happy to see many people connected over there and thank you. So thank you again and well here at BTS we are really happy to host this event at BTS. Well we will host also students from all over the world that want to be the next digital leaders in order to shape well the digital future that is coming. That means also all the related all the future related with blockchain as well. So I think that this is going to be quite interesting not just for our students but also for all the hyper ledger Meetup community. So thank you very much and just to thank you also to GFT that is here supporting education, supporting BTS and also supporting blockchain. So let me keep this going with them. Thank you. Hi everybody, nice to have you here. My name is Sara Adriana. I'm the manager of the GFT Digital Innovation Lab and we recently signed actually a partnership with the Barcelona Technology School. This is our goal, our aim is to put both worlds together, the academic world and the business world. And here we are. We will organize more Meetups like this is actually the first one we're organizing together so we're very happy and our main goal in the lab is test and training technologies and our main partner for that is the design studio and that's why Lucia is here as well. You want to add some words to the studio? Yeah, of course. Thank you very much for being here. It's a pleasure starting this collaboration with BTS. I'm the head of the design studio in GFT. So we deliver Cuban Center Innovations. This is also a collaboration space where we put all these sense of activities and discipline in action. So thank you for being there and also the people here in person. Let's enjoy the talks and the speakers. So it's a pleasure again. Thank you for coming. Thank you. So time for Daniela Varvosa from Hyperledger. Can you hear me online? Thank you. Well, thank you BTS for hosting us and for having us here this evening. And thank you GFT for as well for your support of today's evening presentation. So first welcome, bienvenidos a todos aquí in Barcelona and also those that are online. My name is Daniela Varvosa. I'm the executive director for the Hyperledger Foundation. Across the Linux Foundation, I also serve as the general manager for blockchain and identity projects. So the Linux Foundation has many projects across many verticals, many industries, and I'm responsible for the blockchain and identity ones, which Hyperledger is the largest one of. This is my third time in Barcelona for Mobile Web Congress. And every year in the past, we've done meetups when we come to Mobile Web Congress, and I'm very excited that we're here today to do so as well. So I am going to go and see, is this one? How do I, no, I click. Let's see. All right, we'll get there. There you go. Okay, I can just click. Great. So today's agenda is as follows. We're gonna, we just did an introduction. I'm going to give an overview of very quick and fast overview of what the Hyperledger Foundation has been doing over the last seven years. And I think you'll get a comprehensive view of what we were when we started in 2016 and what we're at today. We're then going to have Vipin Rafi do an overview of the work that the telecom special interest group has been working on at Hyperledger. And this is a telecom group that has been producing papers and researches and Vipin is going to show us some of that work. Then I'm very pleased to welcome Vinnie Robertson from GMSA. And they're going to give a presentation around the work that they're doing with Hyperledger fabric, which I haven't seen in a while. So I'm very excited about that one. So thanks, Vinnie. And last but not least, we're going to have David Creer talk about the Universal Digital Payments Network, which is UDPN, which I'm very excited about that was just launched in January and I was there for the launch. And very exciting to get up update as well. All our Hyperledger community meetings are held under our all our welcome in the Hyperledger community. We do have a code of conduct. So whether you're online or you're in person, please be respectful to one another. We like to get questions. We like to get hard questions. And we like to discuss things. But let's just be respectful one and one another online and in person as well. All right, so let's get started about the Hyperledger Foundation. The Hyperledger Foundation is a nonprofit organization that sits under the Linux Foundation. And today we have hundreds of member companies that support us, as well as over 40,000 contributors, 1.27 million contributions, and many, many projects. Just alone last year in 2022, we had 26 new members that joined the Hyperledger Foundation to help support our developer community. If you think about what we've done over the last seven years, and as I said, I'm going to take you through this very, very quickly. We're really a global community. We have working groups and special interest groups that are really focused on things like telecom, for example, healthcare, supply chain, trade finance, and really a global community here in Barcelona. This is the Barcelona Meetup. We have over 180 cities that have Hyperledger meetups, local meetups, and perhaps many of them are on the phone today on the Zoom meeting as well. When we look about where Enterprise Blockchain is used, it's really cross industry. I'm here today, you know, this week at Mobile Web Congress. So telecom obviously is top of mind for many of us this week. But we really see the adoption of Blockchain across all sectors and industries in supply chain and healthcare and capital markets and finance, education, much more and more so in climate action, which is great to see where the technology is actually solving some of the problems we have and many others. So we are a community of special interests. We're a community of code projects. What we're not is we're not a blockchain. So Hyperledger is not a blockchain. We don't have a public net. You can run blockchain networks, of course, using Hyperledger, but that is not what the Hyperledger foundation does. What we do as a foundation is we help support the developer ecosystem and the different projects that we have. So we're really a global team of developers worldwide. These are people that work for companies or work at universities or work for the government. And what they do is they contribute their time and code and contributions into the Hyperledger community as well. We are an open development community. What that means is it's open source with open development governance. And it means that anyone who wants to contribute can participate in our community. And I welcome everybody to do so as the evening progresses. Today we have 16 different projects. And we're very proud of the different types of projects that we have. And I'm going to talk a bit about how we got to where we are. So starting in 2015 was when the Hyperledger project was formed. And at the time, it came with one project, which was the first project that was contributed by IBM and a company called Digital Asset in 2016 in the beginning of the year. And that was Hyperledger Fabric. Soon after, it was followed by Hyperledger Sawtooth, Hyperledger Iroha, and Hyperledger Explorer. And these are all different types of projects that are meeting different blockchain needs in the ecosystem. So Hyperledger Fabric, that first project that came in today, is the most preferred solution for the top 100 companies. This was a report that came out in October of 2022 by Blockdata, where they went to the top 100 companies worldwide and they asked them, if you're using distributed ledger technology, what is it that you're using? And Hyperledger Fabric, as you see here, continues to be the top one that's used. You see the Ethereum number, they do this report year after year and the Ethereum number is increasing. There is also Hyperledger Beisu, which is our Ethereum client that I'll talk about in a bit as part of that. So today, Hyperledger Fabric just very quickly continues to, as I just said, be one of the most adopted permission networks. Just this year, it's had 11 releases. They're working on V3. It has a long-term support version of two, already the second version there. And this is really important for enterprise appointments, of course. Once 2017 came around, we brought in a couple of interesting projects. If you think about what the ecosystem and the blockchain space in 2017 was like. One was Borough, which was our first EVM, Ethereum Virtual Machine project that came into the Hyperledger. And the other one was Hyperledger Quilt, which was a very early project that was dealing with interoperability, network to network interoperability. And I'll talk about that in a bit. Those two projects are now retired. We're not supporting them anymore, but there's new projects that have come in and superseded them as well. 2017 was also the year that Hyperledger Indy came through, which is a distributed ledger for identity. Out of Hyperledger Indy, since 2017, three new projects have come out of that code base. Hyperledger Aries, URSA, and Enoncreds. And Indy and Aries and Enoncreds are being used quite a bit around projects. As you see here, the government of British Columbia has an energy and minds digital trust project that's pretty interesting where private and public sector is using a blockchain and verifiable credentials in a mining use case. There's also many public services, even here in Europe, EDS and others. ID Union, for example, are using Hyperledger technologies to do digital identity as part of the government infrastructure that they're building out. So Hyperledger Indy and these Indy identity projects started once again in 2017 and have really matured in the market and how they're using. We do believe that decentralized identity and self-sovereign identity is quite important. We just launched at the end of last year a new free course around getting started with self-sovereign identity that I would recommend if you're interested in understanding the general of the digital identity space. And that's for free on our website. 2018 saw a couple of other projects, Hyperledger Caliper and URSA, which is a cryptographic library. And Caliper, for example, is a tool that is used for benchmarking in the case benchmarking Hyperledger. And we just released the fabric community maintainers just released a report that used Caliper. So one project is being used by another project to do benchmarking. And it's an interesting report if you're using Hyperledger fabric and you have questions around scalability and where fabric is headed, it's a great report to read and that's on our website as well. So 2019, and as you can see, we've all been very busy. There's keeps lots of logos and we keep to design people very happy because they are designing cute little logos. But 2019 had the market, as we all know what happened in 2019, there was a need for even more projects and more approaches. And 2019 is when we brought, we understood that there was a spectrum of blockchains, that it wasn't just a permission blockchain and a public blockchain, right, that there was going to be a need for different spectrums of blockchains. There was not going to be one blockchain fits it all. And that's been our premise for since the start of the Hyperledger Foundation. And in 2019, we had a contribution by consensus, the company with the Y and consensus contributed their client, which is called at the time was called Pegasus. And they contributed and it was renamed Hyperledger Basu. So that was in the summer of 2019. And since then Hyperledger Basu has had a lot of adoption. And we'll have a presentation by GFT about their use case using Hyperledger Basu in a little bit later today as well. Last year, at the end of last year, we also got awarded a fairly substantial grant from the Ethereum Foundation to have Hyperledger Basu supported as an execution client in the mainnet. So you can actually run Basu as either on the mainnet or you can run it as a permissioned network, which is how we're going to see the examples later on. So Hyperledger Basu, supportive, obviously it implements the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance specifications for Ethereum and smart contracts. In 2019, lots of labs came started coming in. And today we have over 50 labs that really are addressing kind of innovation and what's needed in the marketplace. So if you're interested in kind of seeing all the new things that are happening in the community, the labs are really a great place to do that. And it's also a place, if you have code that you want to contribute into the Hyperledger Foundation, you could bring your code. We could help get the code into the Hyperledger Foundation as a lab and help you build a community around it as well. So we're always looking for interesting things. So we went from being a very permissioned network type of project. Then we started working with Ethereum mainnet with Basu. We had obviously before with Borough as well. And this need, this real enterprise need of interoperability started coming up as well. So we are working, we're living in a world that's networks of networks. There's many networks and enterprises need to be them. So for example, you might have a financial market network that needs to interact with a global trade network. And maybe they're using the same DLT. Maybe they're both using Fabric or maybe they're using Fabric and Quarta or maybe they're using Basu and Quarta. So really is dependent on how people are using it. So the need for interoperability continues to grow. And our community has been working on this for quite a bit to really address blockchain fragmentation, to save app developers from reinventing the wheel, not having to rebuild something because you're trying to get into a new network and really lowering that risk of distributed ledgers being adopted by businesses. So that was one of the projects in 2020 that came to us, Cactus. And we actually just renamed it Cactus. The major companies that are contributing to Cactus are Accenture, Fujitsu, and IBM. And it's really a plug-in based framework, which once again helps with the interoperability that this network of networks were all that we're part of now. In 2021 was when I started that the hyper, I started in Hyperledger in 2017, actually right, let me see, right before, right before Borough came on board as well. And in 2021, I took over as executive director. And I also, we as a community had been working on the fact that it was not just the Hyperledger project because we were no longer just one project. So we rebranded, we wrote, rewrote the charter, we made some substantial changes to how the umbrella project is now handled. And we named ourselves the Hyperledger Foundation, because as you can see now, we're in the beginning, we started off with one project and two projects, we now had many, many more. And different communities have different needs. And we helped support those needs around the board. In 2021, we saw two new projects. And these are showing the evolution of blockchain in the enterprise. The projects that came on board was Hyperledger Firefly and Hyperledger Bevel. And Bevel is really about making it easy to deploy blockchain. And this is one thing that we've heard from enterprises for many years is how can we make it easier to use these tools. So Hyperledger Bevel is one of those projects. And Firefly is an interesting project that has gotten a lot of traction. And it is an open source super node. So basically it's to build web three apps and already has connections into all the different chains that you see here. So if you're interested in either having, you know, supporting a protocol level of fabric or Bezu or Quorum, or even Polygon, you can go ahead and do that with Firefly quite easily. And, you know, the reason is that the approach is really so that you eliminate a lot of that custom coding. So you see that without Firefly, you're rebuilding and redeveloping things like events and messaging and document management and identity and privacy. And Firefly does all that for you as middleware as part of the stack. So it has a bunch of tools that comes with an Explorer tool, developer tool, DevOps tools. So it's a really easy way once again to onboard organizations into using blockchain as well. And last but not least, we come into 2022 last year. There was two new projects that we welcomed into our family of projects. One was Solang. And the other was Anon Creds. And Solang is a compiler for Solidity. And that's pretty interesting. If you think about Substrate and you think about, you know, other systems, how do you go about doing that? So that's a very young community, but very interested in your interest in that. They're looking for people to help be part of that community as well. And then Anon Creds came in. This was the last one of 2022. And Anon Creds is really once again, it got pulled out of Indie with a lot of additional work, but it's really providing support for verifiable credentials. And it's one of the most adopted out there as well right now. One of the things that we think is really exciting is that Anon Creds and Aries as well are potential building blocks for the new Linux Foundation Open Wallet Foundation that was just announced last week as well. So once again, we got lots of projects, lots of things going on, and I'm always happy to answer any questions about those projects. And we are the Hyperledger Foundation is also about our members. I mentioned that just last year we had 22 members that joins. We have hundreds of different members around the world that support the developer ecosystem, that support the communities that we build out. And we spent a lot of time making sure that they can tell their stories about how they are delivering things. So case studies and member webinars, different speaking events, and we really work with the community. At Hyperledger, my team is nine people long, only nine people. I know it probably looks like we are much bigger, but it's really about our community and the members that are participating as well. We have our Hyperledger Global Forum. We'll be having them again at the end of Q1, early Q2 of 2024. But we just had it in Dublin and I welcome everyone. We'll put the slides into the Meetup page. There's hundreds of different talks and demos of people who have built using Hyperledger. And then obviously the YouTube channel is a great way. There's a lot of workshops, a lot of hands-on tutorials. And even this Meetup will be on the YouTube channel as well. So I would invite everybody to join us, join us on our Discord, join us on our different channels. And I'll be here for questions afterwards as well. So maybe Vinny, do you want to go? Oh no, actually, Vipin's next. All right, you got it? Hello, everyone. My name is Vipin Radhi and I'm the chair for Hyperledger Telecom Special Interest Group. And we started this special interest group in 2019 in MWC. And now we are like four years. And we published a lot of research papers. We called this as a solution brief. And we are publishing this with various other Linux Foundation umbrella projects. For example, Linux Foundation Networking and Linux Foundation Edge. We published three solution briefs. One of them is like service level agreement, how you can write service level agreements in blockchain, especially for telecom space. And the second one is very interesting is decentralized identity and access management, how DID can be used in telecom space. And the last one is based on inter-career settlements. This is a very big problem for telecom operators that how you can deal with these kind of carrier settlements and how you can use blockchain in it. And we also published various blogs based on telecom and blockchain. And you can find everything in our wiki page. And also we have like every month we have two bi-weekly calls which you can join and learn more about this. So before I start, I want to tell you why because when we started this group in AT&T on Apocatmic Summit, the first question is why we need blockchain in telecom, right? Everyone is asking the same question. So let me give you one scenario very simple, like in this year MWC we can find everyone is like in every booth you can find different operators using different technologies. For example, for ORU vendor A, for ODU vendor B, for OCU vendor C and then 5G code from other vendors. Now the problem is how you can trust these different telecom players. That's the trust issues always. So once you come up with ORAN or use cases like different technologies in this space, then trust is a really big issue in these use cases and there you can use blockchain as well. Other use case I want to put in is like, for example, initially when we started, I remember we started with how we can push different, for example, we started with Hyperledge of Fabric, but the problem was some operators are using Ethereum, some operators are using Ethereum. Public chain, private chain is really tough to make an interoperability layer. So this is what we started in telecom. We started all these things so that we can provide us a solution to these kinds of problem statements where we're building reference architecture for different telecom operators they can use. The problem was when we started with Hyperledge of Fabric then again, the problem was different telecom operators using different or even there are multiple foundations working in this domain, but using different blockchain. So then we started with Hyperledge of Beesoo, that's very interesting project. In this case, you can have an Ethereum private chain, Ethereum public chain and then Hyperledge chain as well and then interoperability is really, really easy. So in DID case, we use Hyperledge, Indie and Eris. This is again, very interesting projects where your telco operators can be a issuer or verifier that all depends, but you can imagine like for authentication, your telcos always using OT user get authentication. This is the use case where most of the telecom operators other use cases I want to add is like for example, William is a public blockchain kind of running on running on running on public blockchains and they started one foundation called Decentralized Wireless TV and recently they pushed it to Solana, which is now we are also looking this use case that now we have Solang in Ethereum and in Hyperledge as well, how we can bring these kind of interoperability between different kind of use cases and bring under one umbrella. That's really, really interesting. So these are early days, why I'm saying early days because ORAN is coming out like with different vendors, different different telecom operators now joining hands and that's where we need trust. And before that, in four years what we did is we're trying to make these reference architecture how we can bring these kind of infrastructure for telco operators to join hands. So this is what we are doing from last four years and there are many use cases. For example, in 5G Super Blueprint, this is a project under Linux Foundation where Linux Foundation Networking, Linux Foundation Edge and Hyperledge are trying to build one layer end to end from user UE to ORAN to 5G core. So it might possible like for example, if you are using different 5G, means different telecom operators are using different 5G cores, for example, OAI or SGCore or Magma core. So that is also very different layers, right? And how you can integrate these kind of different 5G cores in the one umbrella and then how you can bring more trust. So these are the different use cases that what we are looking into the telecom site. Also, we are partnering with different different foundations. For example, DIF, we are looking that how we can use decentralized identity using arrays with other foundations as well with sovereign foundation and other things for telecom space. Yeah, so this is about what we are doing in telecom site and different use cases. Again, these are like early days for blockchain and telecom. Why I am saying this again and again? Because telecom is very much into the silo environment, but now because of ORAN and a lot of other things open core, now we have different 5G cores available in open source. There are four or five and you can test it, your 5G core in your base. So a lot of things going on. I think it will take another one or two years in next MWC or maybe next to next MWC, you will see a lot of use cases of blockchain and 5G or 5G advance or maybe 6G. And then other use cases, we are looking into the NTN. That's how you can put non-terrestrial network kind of things at lights and then 5G IoT kind of applications in Telpo. So yeah, that's it from my side. And if you have any questions, I'm happy to answer. Thank you. I think the presentation was trying to do it without me for quite a while, there wasn't so much short happen there. Okay, thanks, Bob. Great to be here. Quick introduction to myself. My name is Billy Robertson, Technical Sales Director for GSMA. I'm actually here today on proxy, I guess on behalf of Shamit Bhatt, who some of you may well have heard of, quite involved in the Hive Leisure Foundation in terms of contributions. He wanted to be here today, unfortunately, he's in the States, I've been in the MWC, so happy to talk on Shamit's behalf. So I'm going to talk actually about something that Vivian just mentioned in terms of some of the stuff that we're doing with hyperledger and blockchain from a negotiation and setting perspective. Because of course, for us at the GSMA, we work with operators and we see one of the real low hanging fruits in terms of the work we do with operators is trying to support them with their wholesale roaming and settlement process. There's a real challenge at the minute within the roaming space and how different operators and how their roaming managers and groups negotiate and set contracts and work with each other. It's been very surprising for me just how disjointed and unorganized they are in terms of how they create their contracts, how they work with each other, how they exchange roaming agreements and of course really importantly how they settle amongst each other at the end of a settlement period. So we certainly saw blockchain as one of the ways that we can support and we've delivered something called the e-business network, which is really designed to help streamline the wholesale roaming space for those operators. Many, many partners, I say it again, many, many partners using different tools, different spreadsheets, different proprietary systems in order to build these deals. And it's just causing so many problems in terms of them being able to settle amongst each other at the end of their discount period. So yeah, we've got this not alignment of deals, not alignment of what we call transfer of account procedures, call data records and it's slowing down the time it takes them to get paid. The time it takes them to settle amongst each other. So the e-business network has been a fantastic tool for us. Let me try and give a bit more concept in terms of what I'm talking about to bring that to life a little. So I hope that this slide gives a little bit of context in terms of what I'm talking about. So you'll see here on the right as you on the left as you look at it the kind of standard legacy ways in which operators work together and agree a discount deal. So here in this example you'll see we have M&OA and M&OB and apologies it looks a little bit distorted on there but that'll work. M&OA and M&OB working together to come together and agree a discount model. So they're working together to set the deals, the discounts and how their agreements will work together. Now many of those M&O's, most of those M&O's now, will also work with a data clearinghouse or a financial clearinghouse who will help to make that end-to-end process work. They'll sit in the middle, they'll take the files for one operator, run automation, run aggregation and then share it with the other so they know their settlement and then their settlement positions. The challenge that got is that we have of course the problem that we call the double count problem. Everything's being checked twice or three times or four times by the first operator, by the second operator, by the DCH, by the FCH and this causes multiple versions of truth. No one's quite sure what the correct version of truth is because I haven't been able to align at the beginning and determine what good looks like. So we've got all these multiple versions of truth which of course importantly brings around this slowing down of the settlement process because they can't agree at the ends. So it goes back and forth. Standard is 45 days of back and forthing. We see up to two years of disputes going back and forth before they can finally settle. The way it works is whoever owns the most pays the other, right? So it'll go back and forth for a long time, up to two years to settle. It's a problem. Of course, as you look on your right, we are utilizing blockchain and the e-business network and automation. In this instance, MNOA and MNOB still come together to agree their discount models but here we use blockchain, hyperledger as an execution logic to settle amongst those partners and agree amongst those partners. So importantly here, neither side run their own separate calculation engine but rather share a agreed charging model, okay? Both have separate instances, both have separate access but they're sharing this agreed charging model. The GSMA look after what we call the standardization, the stereo templates, so the agreed charging models and then negotiate back and forth using the system and of course, when you share an agreed charging model, it's much more difficult by disputes to occur because everything's agreed up front. When it's agreed, we create a hash entry, store in the ledger and you can see exactly what was agreed. And what I mean by that, just to give one more slide for a little bit more context on that and this will mean more to a roaming manager. We'll just step forward a little bit here. There we go. But of course, so this would be the, I guess the portal access that a roaming manager or a group would look at and some really important things happen here within that. So once they access it, both have their own access, it's a shared model, decentralized of course, but we have the ability for them to track their deals, look at what's in the launch phase now, build their deals, tap implementation, settlement, everything sits within the system. What's really important though, of course, is what's happening under the hood. And that is that every time you'll see sent, received, sent, received, so that's the contract going back and forth between partners. Every time that's done, blockchain key is being shared amongst the network. Sorry, blockchain hash shared amongst the network, blockchain key stands on the ledger. Now at any point, if there's a disagreement, MNOA could say to MNOB or vice versa, is that your hash entry? If yes, has to be true. So they can, for the first time now really just align and agree, this was the deal. This is how it's happened. If we're both sharing that hash entry, it must be right. So we're doing lots of work now to spread that work. Great to see them WC just this week. Additional partners joining and network starting to build. So it's really good stuff. But that's the portal they see. And of course, that's the issue that we're trying to solve. So of course, for us, just in terms of the access that we provide, and obviously we're using a hyper ledger fabric for our blockchain, needs to be private permission to course, can't use public blockchain operators, aren't they trustworthy bunch, they're trying not to trust each other. So of course, we have to ensure that we can create private channels amongst them. Importantly, when we're processing deals, when the CIS was being used to create their deals, the only operators that are able to see what's being negotiated are the two operators that are transacting amongst each other. Networks just use the hash values, if they agree, it's all the same, stamped, and it's ready to go. And for us, we do something quite important, important, but options in terms of how we set up those particular partners. So we allow, of course, the GSMA provides the government access to the network itself, create digital identities, everyone onto the network as they need to be, but we allow them to join how they choose to join. For example, an operator may choose to host their own node on premise at HQ. That's absolutely fine for them to do so. They may work with a third party vendor who will host on their behalf the work that we are doing that's proving particularly popular. Certainly from an evaluation perspective, is hosting nodes on behalf of those operators because the challenge is, of course, there's not necessarily the right technical expertise, the right setup in an operator. So we could do much of that heavy lifting, back-end support, infrastructure setup, access to the network, etc. on behalf of that operator, so they're up and they're ready to go. So really important that some of the stuff that we're able to do there as well. So really good things happening in terms of access to the network itself, it's private permissions, I say, and yeah, I think it's about a network. Yeah, perfect. Let me just jump forward. And then so to bring all of this together, here's where we are now. We have a suite of blockchain services available for partners now. Now, two of those are very much about access to the network itself, and the other two tools that are built on top to help them leverage the network and provide that usability, so to speak. So the first two on your left is your look. We've got, of course, the e-business network itself. That's about providing the access to the network, providing that the digital identities, the infrastructure, the governance of the model so that those can join, have that capability. And of course, we look after that at the GSMA. Second is Node, I just mentioned Node there in terms of our offering. As a managed service, we provide that set up, that access into the network, the infrastructure work that needs to be done. Very little effort and work needed from the operator to jump on board will provide that support where it's needed. There we go, back on. And then the other two, we've got the applications that sit on top. Let me just go back. There we go. I'm sure I'll be back in a second. We've got two applications on top, the negotiator app and the settlement application. So negotiators are very much about being able to build that online workflow between two partners as they're negotiating back and forth. As I say, it allows you to create what we call discount IoT. So you're offering wholesale discounts on various road and services amongst partners. We talk about this ability to negotiate back and forth and use the system to flow between operators with those shared charging models, agree, stamp, no duplication of effort, all done in one go. And then, of course, you've got the GSMA settlement application, which allows partners to do exactly that. Come settlement time, again, utilize blockchain to align the single source of truth, but they can use the settlement app to create periodic invoices and then use those invoices to be able to share those with partners, see whose net position is where, and then, of course, they're able to sell much, much quicker. So anything we can do to reduce that time is being really, really welcomed by operators. So again, I talk about bringing those first partners on board now as well. We're starting to see those partners evaluate the network. This is going to be great for us in terms of really building a business case around this. Now, there are 750 operators that we have the ability through the GSMA, through our membership, for our work of industry to go out there and really educate and work with around the business network. So we're really excited to be doing the work that we're doing and bringing this into the likes of the operator community. There are additional things that we do. I thought I'd stick with this just for the course of the day, but of course there's conceptual items there as well. Now, we talk about this being the low hanging fruit. Of course, we want to see how we can introduce payments at some point. Can we introduce a stable coin? An SDR is linked to the way that partners settle amongst themselves now. There's more we can do with fraud. There's more we can do with supply chain. All of that we look to bring in over the course of the coming weeks, months, and years. But based on the 15 minutes I had, I thought this might be a good place to start with now. Now, I'm going to finish up in a second. But Shamit, who although wasn't able to attend, did ask me to say a few words and mention a few things which I'm going to do just in terms of some of the feedback that we have in terms of, I guess, challenges and feedback from the operator community just in terms of some of the things that we're doing. So I'll mention these and I'm going to read them out. So just in terms, I guess, some of the challenges that we do have. Cost is always a challenge for any operator as they'll tell you all the time. And overhead is associated with running a node. I think we're doing something that's very new within the industry. So I think there's been a challenge, certainly in some cases, where the cost of running those nodes on top of their operations could sometimes be a bit challenging in terms of the underlying business case. They're very savvy in terms of their spend. So anything that we can do to help reduce that operational cost or anything we can do to help reduce the costing around nodes and how they work, we think would be quite useful for us as well. And he also mentioned interoperability. GSMA's vision is for an e-business network or the e-business network to be an open ecosystem, which is multi-party and ledger agnostic ecosystem. We have been following the work on Polkadot Cosmos and the recent Cactus Firefly Solutions. Although we've made progress, mature interoperability solutions and their exceptions still remain somewhat of a challenge. And our requirement is to support a multi-party interoperability within and across networks, network and networks, and multi-ledger interoperability within and across networks and networks. And there were just the two things that he wanted me to mention just in terms of feedback. So look, I think at this point, I'll finish here on these slides. If you want to learn more about the e-business network, feel free to scan this because it takes you to the page that talks about the work that we're doing. There's some contact details for both myself and for Shammit. But yeah, I think at this point, I'll probably finish up. I'll hang around for a while. And if you've got any questions, I'll try to catch you at some point over the course of the next hour or so. Appreciate your time. Thank you. Vinny, it's really great to see the update that GMSA has done. You've been early adopters of hyperledger fabric and really have like built institutional knowledge around using fabric. And if you think about the scale that the GMSA, you know, with 750 carriers, you said, 750 carriers and the amount of roaming charges and pieces of data that are going back and forth, it's really an interesting, not only interesting, but a fascinating watch as the network grows and fabric continues to scale with it as well. Congratulations. Congratulations on onboarding your new members this week as well. Excellent. And you'll stick around for some questions because I have a bunch of them. All right, excellent. Next up with UDPN, David Creer from the Global DLT and Crypto Lead at GFT. And just as a reminder, GFT today is helping sponsor us here at the BTS School as well. So thank you so much. David, over to you. Hi, everybody. I'm David Creer, the Global DLT and Crypto Lead at GFT. GFT are a technology services company with over about, yes, seven years experience in the space. We've completed a lot of stuff working actually with hyperledger. Yeah, technologies for probably the last six years or so. One thing before we get started, and I've just noticed now, I don't think my slides so I don't know if we need to switch decks. No, it's not that. Okay. So just in the meantime, so yeah, so GFT has been working on the hyperledger fabric. We've done a lot of stuff with hyperledger BESU. We're also doing a lot of stuff in software orders. Yeah, I don't think so. But we also work across all different types of technology, right? We're doing a lot of stuff in obviously a lot of POCs. We're doing a lot of production projects as well. We do a lot in financial services. That's one of our main things that we do. And that's the reason that we're basically hosting this is because of stuff that we've been doing in financial services and payments specifically. The other thing is that we also do quite a lot of stuff in industry, which is kind of interesting because it's that kind of crossover between maybe the payment side and the telecommunications side of that, which is quite interesting. The previous conversation slides have been doing that thing today, haven't they? So I'm going to be speaking about the Universal Digital Payments Network. The Universal Digital Payments Network is something that we released in Davos earlier this year, and what we're going to be going through today is an introduction to it, and then a technical deep dive. And then we're going to be going into some detail around the sandbox and how you can get involved, and also the different use cases that we were experimenting at this point in time with different financial services, companies, and also other companies as well. So firstly, the introduction. So I want to start by just asking people to put their hands up if they've ever been to Singapore. Who in this room has been to Singapore? Okay, a few hands here. Who in this room has heard of the Singapore dollar? Maybe a few more hands might go up there. Just a few still, right? Out of the people here in this room who have seen, heard of the Singapore dollar know something about it. Do you notice anything different about this particular Singapore dollar that we're seeing here on the screen? Well, there is something quite different about it. If you look at the detail, you can see that actually it says the word Michigan in it. And that the reason because of this is because this was issued by the Singapore Bank in Michigan. This was this particular dollar was basically issued by a private bank in the United States. And they did so and they had $50,000 in circulation. And when they did this, and there was a lot of different private banks at this point in time in 1836, I think it was. When they did that, they didn't actually have any reserves that were backing it not in gold, not a silver, etc. etc. They meant to have a third of those $50,000 held in reserves and they didn't. And eventually, at some point in time, they were inspected and they were shut down and the bank was doled. And everybody who had these dollars because obviously $1 at that point in time is actually worth quite a lot of money, ended up with their dollars being worth just the paper they were printed on. And this is a concept that we found out about when we were basically investigating stable coins and it's called Wildcat Banking. And you actually have, as well as a Singaporean dollar, you also have various different other basically privately issued banknotes at that point in time. So we have several of them here. So this was between the points at which basically money was kind of first issued in the States. You had a lot of these small commercial banks basically issuing their money. And what actually happened here is you had the National Banking Act in 1863 came into play. And the National Banking Act illegalised the creation of private banking, private money. So now in the United States, it's not possible to be able to print your own money in the way that it was at the beginning of the 1800s. And why am I explaining this? Well, the reason that I'm explaining this is because now in 2022, now in 2023, we see that this is actually history repeating itself in stable coins. So we have stable coins, which are backed by algorithmic stable coins, which are not backed by anything substantial. And because of the fact that they're not necessarily backed by anything substantial, then they provide a risk to the market, right? And the people that have invested in these stable coins, such as Terry USD, don't have the guarantees that they would have if they were investing about something which is properly backed by US dollar, gold, whatever it is. And in fact, in the case of USD, it lost 99% of its value in one day. And that was about $19 billion that just disappeared overnight because of the fact that the algorithm wasn't correct because of the fact that it wasn't properly backed and there weren't reserves backing up. And a lot of people lost their life savings because they had invested quite heavily in Terry USD. I know people that lost a significant amount of money as well, right? So this kind of banking and this kind of, let's say like wildcat banking still exists today, but it exists in different forms, right? It exists in forms of stable coins, it exists in forms of crypto, it exists in forms of digital asset. And so what we're seeing now is that the central banks and the regulators are now trying to basically reel this in. They're trying to take control of this, right? And they're trying to take control of this from a stable coin point of view. So you have a lot of different regulators that are coming and building regulations such as MECA or building regulations around stable coins in different areas of the world. And you have also central banks that are building their own digital currencies. And the reason that they're building their own digital currencies is to protect their banks and also their people from these kind of risks, right? So the digital currencies are kind of almost protecting the commercial banks against privately issued stable coins that could be issued by a stable coin issuer such as a tech company like that, or they could be issued by a big corporation. But whatever it is, it's a risk against the financial market, traditional financial market. And that's the reason that these central banks want to issue this money, right? And that's why the World Economic Forum states that this is a new era for money now and that we're actually in a point at which we are going through from this while banking era into a point at which actually these kind of payment systems will be regulated in the future and will be standardized in the future. And in fact, in forecast news, they also show that the, in fact, the CBDCs will be the use case, will basically testing this use case with this kind of technology. So they show that even, they even think that basically that the CBDC is basically the way to do this, not through stable coins, not through any kind of other digital asset. And this is actually true in terms of adoption from the central banks as well. So there are something like 114 different central banks that are doing this, 116 if you go by what the BIS says, the Bank for International Settlement. That's basically something like 90% of the central banks in the world. And all of these central banks are doing this because they see the risk of privately issued money. And that's privately issued money from a traditional point of view. So things like we pay or Apple pay, but also from the new stable coins as well, which are coming onto the market. So this is a way of kind of taking back that ability to be able to pay or that ability to be able to use digital payments in a way that's kind of succinct and easy to use. And you can then build on top of it using programmable money. So that's the reason that they're doing it. And there's a lot of different implementations that are happening at right now. So we have, for example, four that are basically in production. So you have the Harmer Sandola, you have the Enira, you have DeCash, which is in the Western Caribbean, and you have the Jamdex in Jamaica, which are now in production. If you look at the CBDC tracker, it only shows two of them because of the way that they classify it, which is the Jamdex and the Sandola. But actually, the others are in production as well, because they're available to all of the country. And then we have some really big pilots going on, or just about to start in some countries as well. So just about to start in Brazil already started in China a long time ago, and in certain other Southeast Asian countries as well. And we have pretty much all of the most big major economy is thinking about how they're going to do their CBDC. It's got a mind of its own, this slide deck. So what I'm trying to say here, what I'm trying to say is that CBDCs are coming. And they're coming down the line a lot quicker than we actually think, because at the end of the day, if the digital euro, if they're saying 2026, two or three years is actually nothing at all. It's really, really quick. And what we need to do is we need to be able to find a way to be able to bring all of these CBDCs together, and all of these stable ones together in a way that they can actually interact with each other. Because if all of these are a silo, then that's actually a massive problem for the financial services institution. And that's what we're trying to get at here. And what is a CBDC and what does digital money actually have? What are its characteristics? Well, a CBDC replaces cash or could replace cash in the future. We're not sure if they all completely replace cash. Most of the central banks are saying that they probably won't replace cash, that they will keep cash alongside. But there are some other central banks that are slightly more bullish around this. Actually, in reality, if they do not replace cash in certain countries, then the case here for traceability doesn't really make sense as well, because the case here for traceability is about trying to get rid of the black and gray markets. So paid for cash in hand jobs, which cost the government quite a lot of money, because they can't tax those kinds of interactions. So if they don't replace cash completely, then everybody can just carry on with that kind of business without it. Obviously, they have the same value. So they have the same value as cash, you might even find that some things will be cheaper. So actually interacting with, for example, public amenities or buying things from the government, or maybe even your paycheck, if you're a government employee, might even be slightly cheaper or fatter in the case of a paycheck because of the fact that there's less overhead from the government to be able to be able to issue that. The other thing is about programmable money. And this is the point, and this is the area which is probably most interesting, and the area where most people are kind of getting excited about. So money at this point in time is programmable. So cash is not programmable. You can't program a 10 euro note, but you can program digital cash that is not in your bank account. You can say, I'm going to have a bank in my bank account. I'll have a direct debit. It sends something out every month. You can do all sorts of things because at the end of the day, your account is just a digital representation of what they have at the bank. Thank you, Slides. But it has its limitations because they can do things inside the bank. So they can do things in their own accounts and they can move money around and they can represent that in a digital way in whichever way they want. But what they can't do is they can't interact with third parties. So things like, for example, let's say if you want to be able to use your money just for, thank you, if you want to be able to use your money and issue, there was this really great use case where basically they were saying that in the UK you have your winter savings money that you get given by the government to be able to spend on heating inside your house. And they get given that this is for people who are under a certain amount of money or they are over a certain age or whatever it is. And they get given this in, I think it's like November, end of November, December. And these are people who don't have much income. So what do they do? These people, they actually go out and they spend that money on Christmas presents for their family. Well, you would as well, wouldn't you? I mean, it doesn't matter. You just jump through it and you're there at home and it doesn't really matter. So you go and spend that on Christmas presents for your family using smart, you know, CBDC fact programmable money, you could potentially connect the systems between the energy companies and the systems between the payment companies and the smart contract that's been deployed to be able to represent that to be able to say this money that we have issued can only be used for this particular thing. And some people will also argue that there are some negative impacts on that as well and that could be possible. I don't think that's necessarily going to happen, but it is a stepway change in the way that we're thinking about money at this point in time. The other thing that's really important to a lot of different central banks and a lot of commercial banks is the cost reduction piece here as well. So there's a lot of money spent on moving money, moving money around cash management, all of those kinds of things costs a lot of money and the actual production of cash is a big business as well, right? So on one side, you have how do we actually move money around and these kind of secure bunkers, all of this kind of stuff. On the other side, we have the production costs and all of that's going to go away. And the last two points are about the reduction of fraud. So it's not easy to be able to counterfeit a 10-year note of whatever it is or a 50-year note, 100-year note, but it is possible. It's almost impossible to be able to counterfeit cryptographically backed digital assets because you have to really understand how to basically break the cryptography, which in theory is impossible. So you won't be able to create counterfeit money in the same way that you can potentially at this point in time. And that's really interesting for central banks and also for commercial banks. And then on the last bit, we touched on this a little bit before about how we can trace the transactions between different people. I think the one thing just to bear that this in mind is that in Europe there's especially, and we're here in Barcelona, so we're thinking more about Europe than China and these places where this is not necessarily such a big thing there, but there's big focus here in Europe on privacy, right? And on how privacy will be implemented when they do digital euro. So it probably will be the case that transactions that are under $3,000 won't be traced and only transactions that have a high value will be traced. There's still a leap of faith that people have to do to be able to say, well, actually, this is the case and my transaction is off chain or not recorded or whatever it is. But there will be that privacy aspect to the digital euro that will be there for sure. But these are all great things, right? But we're not there with CBDCs. We're not anywhere near CBDCs at this point in time. I said before there were foreign production, but you have the names of these economies. These are small economies, right? So those big economies that are trying, so for example, China, China has been doing its pilot for five years, it's still a pilot. Eventually, we're going to production, it will be the first major economy to go into production for sure. But it'll be a while before we have the digital euro, the digital dollar in production. We might have some other big economies from other places where it's easier to kind of push things through like Brazil, going into production quite quickly. But if we're learning by the process happened in China, it'll be a good five years or so, or maybe even six years between the pilot starting and going anywhere near production. So in the meantime, we have stablecoins. And stablecoins are here to bridge the gap. Some might say that they would go on and serve a purpose after that as well. That's quite possible. I don't know. I can't really speculate on that, to be honest with you. But there's quite a big market, right? And the market here is rough about, I think it's like $150 billion, something like that. So that's significant amount of money and it's going up. And the interesting thing though is that some of these stablecoins, especially USDC and USDT are available across different networks. But there's not actually interoperability between those different networks that they're actually available on. So you can't natively swap USDC across all the different networks at which it's on. So there's kind of like a fragmentation of the different networks for stablecoins. And this means that because you have this kind of siloed setup for stablecoins, that if you wanted to be able to deploy it as a monetary system of the future, then that you would be taking a big risk and you would be putting, you know, you couldn't really base a payment system on something that was potentially going to have issues in it from one particular area or another particular area. So what we really need is an infrastructure for digital money. And this is what the UDPN aims to do. And the main reason for this is because there's a lot of money being transacted at this point in time. So if we talk about digital money transaction, it's worth about $23.5 trillion so this is a much bigger amount than what we're thinking with just a stablecoin at this point in time. And the FX cost is $120 billion. But there are some major issues with this. And the reason is at this point in time, when you make a transfer between one country and other, so for example, we launched the UDPN at Davos earlier this year, we had to pay for the room in which we were basically launching it and we sent them a wire transfer. That wire transfer took three days to be able to send across. And it took three days to be able to send across. And in between the day that we sent it across and the day that it arrived, we had no vision of what was going on. It was just like, oh, you just wait for it to go through. If you move that to a stablecoin, if you move that to a CBDC, that should be instantaneous and you should have some traceability about how it was being sent through. And there was a study by Oliver Wyman, JP Morgan that said that you could potentially unlock $100 million worth of funds that were basically just stuck in that three-day period of being transferred between one country and another. So basically, this idea of remittance basically between countries where you basically have money which is stuck in the system. And this is really the reason why a lot of people are looking at CBDCs and stablecoins for transfers. It's going to make things a lot quicker. The other thing to bear in mind is that the technology is ready now. So the technology is actually a point at which it's becoming ready, it's becoming productive. We can see here, for example, that stablecoins in probably something like the next couple of years will be on the plateau of productivity. We see here that blockchain in general is in the slope of an item. So we're at a point at which technologies are seeing more return on investing, putting blockchain projects in particular. It's come to a point now and this is the point for building infrastructure for the new era. On the other side, we have more market pool for infrastructure. On the other side, we have business readiness and tech and then we have stablecoins which are going to be the bridge for CBDC. So we actually have a mechanism to be able to make these payments. So right now, we actually need this infrastructure more than anything else and this is effectively what the vision is. So the UDPN is a decentralized payments network. It's basically a messaging service that will send instructions through to the different digital currency systems and it will basically enable the swapping and transfer of these digital assets in stablecoin at this point in time and eventually CBDCs. The UDPN allows for entities, so either natural entities or legal entities or businesses, to be able to transfer swaps and more importantly, to be able to own a digital currency and to be able to swap into another currency without necessarily holding a wallet in the two currencies rate. The UDPN is interesting because it's co-governed. So unlike a lot of the different models that we have at this point in time like Swift, for example, where you have a hub and spoke model with a central organization and then a lot of different organizations that are using them. This is going to be a co-governed thing, so we're going to have an alliance that's going to be running it and we really believe that that's actually super important for the future of financial services because at the end of the day, if this is going to be the infrastructure for financial services, it needs to be run by all of the financial services institutions. There are some quite important differentiators between ourselves and others. It's time to market, so we've been working on this for the last couple of years, decentralized governance. So I said before that we're in an alliance that those alliance members will basically govern the network, so we'll be able to make decisions. It won't be run by one particular company and we have a decentralized architecture and I'm just going to go into that in a second. The solution is basically a decentralized permission network. We have a messaging backbone which connects up to the different currency systems, CBDCs or stablecoins. We're only going to be supporting CBDCs or regulated Fiat-backed stablecoins and that's very important to remember that we're not supporting anything which is not regulated for payments. We're going to be the messaging system for the money for the financial services system for the future. We're going to go very quickly our tech stack. On one side we have, we basically focus on having cutting-edge technology which is going to be the future and also production grade technology. So we're working with Hyperledger Besson. We chose Hyperledger Besson and we're doing the private implementation here because that is completely scalable. So we need to be able to support payments in a similar way to something like Swift. When we did the math, Swift I think it's like 14 billion transactions per year or something like that. When you do the math comes down to about 4,000 transactions per second. When it's in the Hyperledger Besson setup in its optimum fashion which is what we're doing here because we're going to have less than 24 nodes, more than four nodes and less than 24 nodes and a very low payload. It can easily relieve that. We have Solidity for Smart Contracts by 3J for connecting to the blockchain, Postgres for saving metadata, Infura for connecting to the different stablecoin networks, Java and Spring Boot for our backend services and Rabbit and Q for messaging. Very quickly, we have a two-layer system. So we have the UDPM blockchain layer and we have validator nodes which sit between transaction nodes which link into the currency systems and business nodes which link into the IT systems. On top of that we have an application layer and this is where we deploy our smart contracts. So our smart contracts can either be UDPM official service smart contracts. So for SWATM, for transfer, for the issuance of distributed identifications or they can be third-party applications and it's actually the business nodes themselves that can issue the third-party applications and this is how we're doing the POCs with the banks and financial services institutions that are working with us. The third-party applications can be issued for just the business node itself, so to monetize that particular third-party application or they can be used to be able to provide the services to the whole of the UDPM. I'm not going to go through all of this architecture, but you have here you have the business node on the left hand side, transaction nodes on the right hand side. The interesting thing here which is slightly different because you have that from the previous one is you have a tar node in the middle, that's a transaction are auditing a reporting node and that's an archive nodes of the type archive node from the Hyperledger Bessu setup and that's a kind of input for the auditors and the regulators as this is a regulated network. We also have capital pools and the reason that we have capital pools is so that when you are doing a swap you actually need to have liquidity for the second leg of the swap so if you're sending digital euros and you're converting it into digital dollar for example you need to have a capital pool for the second leg of that swap and we also are going to link into settlement token systems to be able to provide the balancing out of the different of the different accounts and when we go for basically when we move into the CBDC world as well because when we go into the CBDC world you're working on accounting systems a lot of the time so it won't be a basic a direct swap in the same way that you have with stablecoins and that could be finality that might be mcdc bridge that could be something like jpm coin to be honest with you we're working with all of the different banks to see which ones they want to use. You can look at the all of the components in the white paper so do download that and have a look. We have a sandbox it's live it's there so that you can become familiar with it you can bring in your use cases on there you can participate in POCs you can download it and use it via the web UI you can install your own local business node we're doing quite a few different POCs I'm not I'm fortunate I'm out of time so I don't think I'm going to be able to go through them all today but we're working with HSBC standard charted we're working with the bank for East Asia for example and a variety of other different banks on these different POCs so we are doing I would say all of this in H1 and we'll be doing another 10 POCs in H2 and then just maybe before wrapping up if you want to work with us today or you're part of a business that wants to work with us today there's three easy steps you can apply to join the sandbox participate in the POC use cases and then eventually if you want to and you see the you know work for a big company and you want to be able to be part of that alliance and you can become part of that alliance. Lastly but not least I would just recommend you all to check out our website download our white paper and obviously get in touch if you're all interested in getting more information. That's it thank you really. So some questions from the audience thank you so yeah when we think about stablecoins and you know they're being supported by fiat currencies we have seen the decline in the value of fiat currencies so my question is do you see or do you know anything about how these central bank digital currencies will be backed in relation to fiat which is losing value so the stability is kind of missing yeah I think it's a good question and honestly I don't have a direct answer for that I mean essentially the central bank digital currency will just be it won't be backed by anything I mean in the same way that you know cash is not backed by gold anymore it'll just be issued by the central bank and then it will just be trusted by the central by the users of it and the and the interest rates will be you know moved up and down when the central bank that feels that they need to issue more or raise the raise the need a little bit right um but there won't be any change in that respect it'll be very very similar to fiat in the fact that it's not necessarily backed by um anything at all other than the um the sense of security in the in the central bank basically so and just a quick follow up question do any of the cbdcs that you've seen so far do any of them actually talk about integrating limits in any way on the supply yeah yeah so so they're oh in the supply yeah no so so not in the supply but there are limits that are put in so for example you have transaction volume limits you have um the amount that you can actually hold in cbdcs as well so you can't hold a huge amount of cbdcs in your wallet they're not designed as investment vehicles um and um there will also be limits also potentially on the on on what you can do based around the way that you have um your uh your the way that you've accessed your cbdc as well so for example if you're a tourist and you're accessing you might have um particularly like a cash card for your cbdc that would allow you a maximum of maybe like 500 dollars or something like that 500 digital dollars should i say um and you would be able to do transactions of maybe up to 50 dollars whereas actually if you went for a bank and you did all the KYC that was necessary to go through that commercial bank then you would have the ability to be able to hold 10 000 US dollars uh US digital dollars um and maybe do transactions of 500 euros at a time or a thousand or whatever it is right so limitations in terms of the central bank and how much they can issue no i think they want to kind of keep that uh uh what yeah they want to be able to keep that flexible um but but some some kind of you know conditions for the people that are using it yes thank you some questions online yeah there's a question online how do you see this trend of digital cash replacing paper money similar to gold silver replacing paper currency and the lessons learned from that transact uh transition also the digital cash leaves a sizable population around the world behind these are people not digitally literate this would create more inequality around the world whatever your thoughts so so it's a good question um some people would say that um so so first part of the question we're moving from one type of um currency to another um i'm not sure um if we will just have digital currencies or whether they will both interact together um for at least for a number of years probably for the next decade or so i think we'll probably have two happening at the same time um and when we move across to digital currencies then we do have to make sure that um there is financial inclusion for um everybody basically so if people don't have i don't know access to smartphones for example to be able to have wallets and they need to be able to have um easy access to bank cards which will basically be their their wallets or something like that um but there's also an argument if we're talking about like the second the second question here about financial inclusion then actually having a cbdc um is going to mean that there is going to be more financial inclusion and more banking of the unbanked and the reason for that is because you don't necessarily need to have an actual bank account so the commercial banks don't need to basically take the risk on you and there are some commercial banks that won't take a risk on even people that actually have jobs and have um uh and have uh you know are employed in the system so for example in the uk i know this because my wife is from here she's from Barcelona um when she went to the uk she was working in a shop and she'd been working in a shop for quite a while they're paying cash in hand whatever she couldn't get a bank account because hsbc or whoever it was would not give her a bank account because she she wasn't working for uh you know golden sacks or whatever it was she wasn't already in the system she had but she wasn't already in that position whereas actually with cbdc's in theory it should be possible to be able to open up those gates to people who are not necessarily already in the commercial bank system and give them access and that so so people for example tourists might be able to have as i said before just a small cash card which they can use um for transactions which they can then just go into so i think that yes it might be difficult because of the um because of the uh what's the those because of the it might be difficult because of the gap the gap in digital awareness for maybe older people um but i think eventually i think that it will also include people in the financial system in the digital cash system which in mind right the six characteristics of benefits you talked about earlier can you repeat that question you can predict everyone adapt to this you know but even digital euro in terms of number of years i think i think it depends on the benefits of using it to be honest with you i think that people won't use it unless unless there's a real incentive to doing it so and if the digital if the ecb puts out the digital euro and they just say use it for transfers um to be able to buy a newspaper and it costs the same amount of money to be able to use your ecb wallet as it does to be able to pay for the cash or via your credit card then people are not going to bother transferring money into their ecb wallet to then pay via the ecb i mean i might because i like the idea of you know experimenting with technology but people aren't going to do it it's a hassle right people are only going to move across to it when it becomes cheaper to be able to do things or they can do things that are not possible using the current model so it really depends on what kind of things they can do what kind of new innovations they can do maybe it's you know maybe if smart cities and micro payments become the new thing in maybe 10 years time or whatever um then maybe we'll see more use of them because it maybe will have like machines and infrastructure payments all of these kinds of things might become more normal so i think i think adoption depends on what you can do with the cdc and that's why i think it you know we're always saying to central banks that don't rush into it just to do it try and deploy something which is kind of you know futuristic thinking um because it's not race to get the first cbdc out it's actually a race to get the first good cbdc right it's responsible responsible innovation for sure so there's one more we're going to take one more question from online and then another question from here and then we'll wrap it up so the uh curl asks the question could a company issue its own back stable coin with your solution uh so so our solution yeah so our solution could be used to be able to distribute the fiat back stable coin um but it would have to be a regulator to be a back stable coin but yes there's no there's no there's no issue with that um as long as it's a regulator stable coin in fact one of the poc's that we're doing is a bank um is a bank uh based stable coin basically so banks that basically want to be able to issue their stable coin settlement of capital markets for example they will be able to use our system to be able to um therefore uh basically distribute that to the different participants in the in the now so yeah so yes for sure well i think i'll ask a question what do you think are the biggest challenges in the next you know 12 to 18 months that you have to address that udpn has to address uh so so we have a lot of work to do um so we've got you know we've got a very um uh let's say um complicated roadmap we've got to do 10 poc all of those poc's in the first six months and then another 10 poc's next six months um that's 10 poc where each of the poc's that's a very different participant yes we're not doing them ourselves it's actually the participants which is doing them themselves but that's that's quite complicated in its own right because we have to make sure that we are involved they're using the platform correctly all of those kinds of things we make it as easy as possible for them right but we still have to be there so i think that's quite complicated um i think the other thing also we want it to actually be used um by the end of this year maybe the beginning of next year for something that actually brings value right um to the financial services institutions or to to the end users maybe in the bit site systems and we want to kind of get it out of that poc stage and into something which is actually real and kind of you know tangible um and you know is is is being used in in in reality in production so i think that's going to be we need to find out what that first major use case is and then we need to basically apply ourselves and put that into production and get it rolling get it scaled um and i think that will there won't be a challenge exactly um but it will definitely be something that we'll have to spend a lot of time uh you know engineering properly and then planning for it has to be executed it's got to be excellent yeah excellent so it looks like uh we'll be back here in one year's time and we will get an update on that progress excellent well thank you can we ask any more questions i can't remember can we ask any more questions all right um i want to thank everybody who joined us online if there's additional questions um i david how do people get in touch with you and vini and vipin if you can come up on stage and let people know how they can get in touch with you if you have questions