 Hi, welcome to the National Archives Virtual Genealogy Fair. During our third lecture today, Claire Kluskens will be speaking on the Union Civil War pension files. At the end of the session, she will take questions. You can go ahead and send those questions in at any time on Ustream or Twitter. And if she doesn't have time to answer all of them by the end of the session, you can feel free to direct those questions to us at the National Archives. The address is inquire-in-q-u-i-r-e-at-n-a-r-a dot gov. Our hotline will be opening in one hour, and this is where archivists will be standing by to take any questions that you might have on your family research. Union Civil War pension files. Union Civil War veterans provide valuable information about veterans' service during the war, about their lives, and about the lives of their families after the war. Claire Kluskens is a genealogical, projects archivist specializing in immigration, census, military, and other records of high genealogical value. She spearheaded the completion of more than 310 National Archives microphone publications. She lectures frequently and has published extensively in national, state, and local genealogical publications. Claire has been a National Archives staff member since 1992, but she's been doing genealogical research since 1976. Claire? Good afternoon. In this hour, we are going to discuss the pension files of Union Civil War veterans and their widows and minor children. Many of these files are at the National Archives. Pension files for Confederate veterans and widows are at the state archives of southern and border states. There is a web page on the National Archives website entitled Confederate Pension Records that will help you get started. The banner strip you will see at the top of each screen is the 7th New York Cavalry on dismounted parade in 1862. The photo number is 111-B-502. It's from the Matthew Brady collection in the National Archives. The man on the left is William McQuowan, a Civil War veteran from Pennsylvania who sent this photo to the pension office in support of his pension claim. He was going home on furlough during the war. The railroad conductor thought that everybody who wanted to get off the train had done so, but McQuowan, who had varicose veins and other problems as a result of his war service, was still trying to climb down. The train lurched forward and he fell off and his elbow was shattered. It is very, very unusual to find a photograph in a pension file, so this is a real treat. To give you an idea of the number of pension files, let's start with the number of men who served. There are over 2.2 million Union service records in the National Archives. Some men have more than one service record because they served in multiple regiments. My own personal experience, I estimate there is one pension file for 90% or more of the men who served. Please understand that there is one file per soldier, which includes the soldier's claim, the widow's claim, and any minor children's claims. Where there is a widow who is married to more than one soldier, then both soldier's files may be combined as one file. Of the 2.2 million men who served, only about 360,000 actually died in service. More died of disease than were killed in action. These numbers were taken from Fox's Regimental Losses in the American Civil War published in 1889. Other authors may give different numbers. Union Civil War pension files are stored in the National Archives building, Washington, D.C., and they are part of record group 15, records of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Most of the pension files we have became inactive about 1930 or earlier. Most of those files that were still active about 1930, active means there was a veteran, widow, or minor child who was still alive. Those files are still with the Department of Veterans Affairs. However, start with us, the National Archives, because we probably have the file you need, and if not, we'll tell you where to write. We are in the very lengthy process of digitizing Civil War pension files, which are going up on the website of our partner, fold3.com, that's F-O-L-D, the number 3.com. So there is a very small chance you may find the file you need online. To give you an appreciation of the vastness of these records and why it will take many years to digitize them all, I'd like to share a few photos with you. Here is one box of Civil War pension files that I flipped to one end for the photo. There are 14 files in that box, chosen at random, and you can see one of those files peaking out at the top. Here are two rows. They are pretty long rows, as you can see. Here are rows upon rows in just one stack, one room out of several, that have just Civil War pensions. You need to understand the process by which the soldiers and their widows and minor children applied for a pension. Solder applied based on what was allowable by law at the time of the application. At first it might just be for loss of limb and eye or body part or disability due to wounds. Eventually, disability from disease incurred in the service was allowed. And finally, if he lived long enough, all he had to be was old. For the widow, the widow applied based upon what was allowable by law at the time of the application. She had to be the widow. She had to prove marriage occurred. She could not be remarried and any later husbands had to be deceased. In the 1890s there was a means test where she couldn't own valuable property. Minor children were allowed a pension up to the age of 16, at which point they were expected to be able to support themselves. So the application was made by a guardian. There had to be proof of marriage of the parents. There had to be proof of parentage, such as a birth record of some kind. And the pension then ceased when the child reached age 16. You need to understand the file numbering scheme, which may sound crazy to you, but it was logical and meaningful to the pension office clerks, and it worked. When the soldier applied for a pension, the file was given an SO number for soldiers original. The application worked its way through the pension office, and when it was granted it got a new number, the SC number for soldiers certificate. The soldier dies and the widow applies, and so the file gets a brand new number, a WO number for widows original. The application works its way through the pension office, and it's eventually granted the file gets a new number, the WC number for widow certificate. If there's an application for a minor or a dependent mother or father, it will have additional numbers on those files, although those numbers are typically filed with the WOs and WCs. And finally, at the early 1900s, the pension office renumbered all the pensions to either XC numbers or C numbers, which may be either at the National Archives or the Veterans Administration. I know that sounds all crazy to you, but it worked for the pension office, and you'll see in a moment why I'm telling you all of this. There are two indexes to the Civil War and later pensions. The first is T288, National Archives Microfilm Publication, T288, National Index to Pension Files, 1861 to 1934, which is also online at ancestry.com. That index is arranged by last name, then by first name. The other index is National Archives Microfilm Publication, T289, Organization Index to Pension Files of Veterans Who Serve Between 1861 and 1900. That's online also at fold3.com. That index is arranged by state, by type of service, then by regiment, then by company, then by surname, and then by first name. Having two indexes is very useful because sometimes there are mistakes or unclear information in one index that the other clears up. This is a typical index card from T288. The name of the soldier, John W. Moore, is at the top. His widow is Anna Moore. He served in Company I, 19th Kentucky Infantry. He applied for a pension April 28, 1879, and the SO number is 282-636. The SC number is 207-757. His widow applied August 16, 1910. The WO number is 947-493. And the WC number is 708-353. And she lived in Indiana when she applied. When we look at this card, we know with 99% certainty that the file should be found under the WC number 708-353. This is the index card in T289, the organization index for the same man. It's very similar to the T288 card, but does have a couple of differences. The widow's name is not given, but the date of death is given. This is another index card from T289, which I chose to point out that both the T288 and T289 cards will tell you if the man served in more than one regiment. In this case, Starling G. Hendren served in Company I, 19th Kentucky Infantry, and also, certainly at a later date, Company I, 4th Veterans Reserve Corps. Soldiers were assigned to the VRC when they became less able-bodied due to sickness or injury. This index card shows an XC number for James R. Constant, and we would expect to find this file under that number at the National Archives. This XC, this card is an example of a T289 index card for a dependent mother's claim. The mother of William H. Constant applied June 27, 1864. Her application was considered and approved, and the file A5443 is filed among the WC file. The T288 index card would show the mother's name. There can be interesting notations on the index card. This one for Elijah Colvin shows the soldier applied in 1890, his surviving minor child, children in 1907, and a widow in 1918, has a notation that reads, C-O-4-5-4-3-4-7, Philip Smith, Company I, 1st Ohio Heavy Artillery. Naturally, if Elijah Colvin was your ancestor, you'd want to take a look at Philip Smith's file to see why it is relevant. Men who had similar names probably caused the pension office clerks a great deal of confusion. This card indicates that this Horatio Wilson was not identical to a different Horatio Wilson whose file numbers are given. If you have a situation where there may have been confusion between two different men, certainly look in both files since the clerks may have mis-filed some records in the other man's file. Now let's actually look at some of the records in the pension files. Every file is different, and for the purposes of this lecture today I chose the file of John W. Moore at random, and so most of the records you're going to see today are from his file. As we saw earlier, the records are stored in large manila envelopes, and written on the outside is the identification for that file. So this is W.C. 708353, the pensioner is Anna, widow of John W. Moore. These records were received in the 1940s from the Bureau of Pensions and placed in the large manila envelopes by National Archives staff. The records were received in some kind of cans and bundles, so you can see the can and bundle numbers shown there, but they are of no importance to you as a researcher. During the time the pension office was handling the files, all the papers were placed inside a jacket, heavy paper upon which the identification information was written, and all the papers were trifolded and placed inside. When you fold a paper twice to fit it into a standard business envelope, you are trifolding it. There are often several such jackets in the file, the old one replaced with a newer one when the file status changed, such as from an SO to an SC to a WO to a WC and so forth. On the screen is an example of just one jacket from John W. Moore's file. The dark area shows where it was probably exposed to sunlight. The jacket shows the WC number at the top, identification of the soldier, the unit from which he served, the widow's name, the amount she was receiving under the Act of April 19, 1908, the fact she received $12 per month pension from the pension payment agent at Indianapolis that she was now dead, and we see on the right-hand side that she was dropped from the pension role in March 1917. There are a lot of repetitive and very boring administrative papers in the files, but you need to understand what they all are. To give you a better perspective on what a bundle of trifolded papers look like, here are clerks at work in the pension office building about 1900, and you can see all the different pension files laid out across the back of each desk, all trifolded bundles. And here is a detail from that photo of just one clerk at work and all those pension files in front of him. This is the building these people worked in, the building where your ancestor's Civil War pension file was active upon and stored. This is the brand new pension office building built in 1888. Before that date, the pension office was scattered across Washington, D.C. in several buildings. This is how it looked about 1910. It is a magnificent building, and it is very beautiful on the inside, and you can visit it in Washington, D.C. It is currently the National Building Museum. Now let's finally get inside the pension file. For the veteran, the process started with an application, the Declaration for Original Invalid Pension. John W. Moore made his declaration in 1879, which he identifies himself where he lives, the company and regiment he served in, his physical description, the nature of any sickness or injuries he sustained during the service, any hospital treatment he received, and the extent to which he is disabled. These were typically signed in front of a clerk of court or notary public and other witnesses. There will be several pension declarations in the file. Typically these are asking for an increase in pension, particularly if Congress has passed a more liberal pension law. This one is from May 1887. And again in October 1887. You see the names of the witnesses, Leander L. Lewis and Daniel S. Hurst here. His witness names and the claimant signature are on the reverse side. Somehow Moore was removed from the pension rolls, so here is John W. Moore asking for restoration to the pension roll in 1889. This declaration was made before the clerk of the circuit court for Putnam County, Indiana. After 1900, you start seeing typewritten records in the files. Here is Moore's 1906 declaration made before Justice of the Peace, Jesse W. Pike. This is a 1912 declaration from the file of Edward M. Seaman, who served in the third Michigan Cavalry. I show this one to you to point out that you really do need to read each paper in the file. This particular declaration details Seaman's places of residence from 1865 until 1912, which would really help a researcher follow his trail. From Michigan 1865 to 1868, Milford, Michigan 1868 to 1875, San Francisco March 1875 to January 1887, Los Angeles 1887 to August 1890, San Francisco again from 1890 to 1900, and Berkeley, California from 1900 to 1912. This needed proof that any injury or sickness occurred during the war, and frequently this proof came from comrades-in-arms who were there with them. Frank Gillis, who served in the same company as Moore, provided this affidavit. This is page one. And here is the reverse side with the necessary signatures and oaths. Medical proof of the veteran's current condition and its relationship to a war injury or sickness had to be proven in the form of affidavits from physicians. This one is from Dr. E. B. Evans in Green Castle, Indiana, and it is unusual to see one written on letterhead. Here is another affidavit from Dr. Evans in 1889 on a typical physician's affidavit form. Doctors typically wrote out their testimony themselves. And this is the reverse side with the doctor's signature and the clerk of court's signature. Veterans typically went to more than one physician over their lifetimes. So here is one from Dr. George W. Bruce in 1907. And Dr. Hannah in 1888. Family members also supplied affidavits testing to the veteran's condition. Here in 1888 Moore's brother-in-law, B. F. Duncan, had known Moore for 12 years and Moore, quote, had been a great sufferer with rupture and is not able to perform manual labor. Being unable to perform manual labor was a criteria for eligibility. In some affidavits, you'll see comments that the veteran was only able to perform one half or one fourth of a day's manual labor. Here is the employer, Thomas M. Bain, also saying that Moore, who had been in my employ for several years, had not been able to do a man's work during that time and is not now able to do much labor. And for fun, here's the reverse side showing all the ink stamp marks with this paper's progress through the pension office. All of these are on March 13, 1888. The blue one shows receipt at the pension office that day. And the pinkish ones are all from the special examiners division the same day. Coworker Levi Spivey, a deputy sheriff, worked in the sheriff's office with Moore, testifying about his disability. So these kinds of things tell you who the veteran's friends and associates were. And I think when I went to Moore's file, I did a count of the number of names, different names that I saw in the file, and there were about 200 different people whose names appeared one way or another in that. Friends and neighbors, James McD Hayes had known Moore for 10 years and knew he was an invalid and unable to work. And there's another affidavit from William Jones, another friend or neighbor. Postmasters were trusted federal employees. They handled the government's money. Their opinion on the reputation, character, and truthfulness of claimants and witnesses was valued. Likewise, their opinions on the validity of a claim. Here, Postmaster Zalatis E. Chambers of Heartland, Michigan, comments on the pension claim of the mother of a soldier. He says that the soldier who died during the war was dependent upon his mother, not she, on him. To prove a claim, the mother or father had to be dependent upon the son who died in the war. Occasionally, you will find printed instructions from the pension office that give you insight on how things were supposed to be done. This one is a copy of the Commissioner of Pensions order number 229 regarding the preparation of testimony in support of pension claims. To verify a veteran's claims about service and medical history during the war, the pension office requested information about the soldier's service from the official records held by the adjutant general's office. This is an example of one such request from 1905. Here's the left side of the paper and the right side. Here's a much earlier war record request made in 1880 on legal sized paper and another one made in 1885. So you can see they did a lot of checking. And another in 1885 on normal paper. The surgeon general's office was asked for hospital and treatment records which often didn't exist. Here the surgeon general says the records were not on file for Vicksburg, Mississippi before July 5, 1863, and none for Brasher City between June 9, 1863 and January 24, 1864. If a comrade testified that he was with the claimant when his injury or sickness occurred, the pension office would investigate the truthfulness of that by seeking the comrade's war record for the time in question. Here the adjutant general responds that Francis Gillan and Samuel L. Sanders are listed as present on muster rules through June 30, 1863 and here is the reverse side. If there was a problem with the pension claim such as a claim made years later or that the government or that had no government records to support it, the pension office would send out a special examiner to obtain testimony from the claimant and various witnesses. They all follow a similar format starting with this index page that identifies the claimant and its file number at that time. The table of contents here tells us that the notice to claimant of this proceeding is on page 2, the special examiner's summary of the case on pages 3 through 5, the claimant's statement on pages 6 to 11 followed by testimony from Jesse W. White and William T. Cummins and then the claimant's final statement. This special examiner took testimony in Indiana where Moore lived at the time. A different special examiner was sent to Kentucky to take testimony from people Moore knew before and during the war who still lived there. You'll recall that Moore served in a Kentucky regiment. And yet a third special examiner was sent to Nebraska to take testimony from a man Moore knew there so this was a big investigation. Here is the beginning of the Nebraska special examiner's report. These reports summarize the investigation while the investigation was assigned, who testified and gave a recommended course of action such as to grant, deny, or get more information. And here is the second of two pages of the special examiner's report. This is the first page of testimony which was taken under oath. The testimony was written down then read back to the deponent. It can be several pages long. Here is the second page of Moore's testimony and the third page of Moore's testimony and the fourth and final page of Moore's testimony. Sometimes there are specific questions and answers specifically recorded in Q and A format at the end. Otherwise it is a lot of free form narrative. There are several, typically several action sheets or briefing papers in the file. It provides on one piece of paper a synopsis of the claim and where it stood at that time. It would be the kind of thing that would be at the top of the file so that the next pension clerk who picked up the file would know without reading the entire file what it was all about and where it currently stood. This one is from 1879. It may include things such as a case history, the name of the claimant's attorney, actions taken, and so forth. And another from 1884 and one from 1890 and 1907. So a lot of repetitive items in the file. For some reason, the pension office needed to ask the third auditor of the treasury how much more had been paid. This particular record is thus kind of unusual but appears to relate to Moore being dropped from the pension roll and then being restored to it. And here's from the answer from the Treasury Department. $4 per month from January 1865 to April 1884 then $8 from September to September 1888 when he was last paid. There are various advice papers often small in size and attached to larger papers. These often contain the opinion of the medical examiner or the medical referee about the evidence. This one is from 1888. In this one, the person working on the file asked his supervisor, the chief of the special examination division, for advice on how to handle the claim. These often summarize the current state of evidence and indicate problems with the claim. Throughout the lecture, I often use the word clerk as sort of shorthand to refer to the employees of the pension office, but the real tiles were things such as pension examiner, medical examiner, and so forth. Some of them were actually lawyers and some were medical doctors. You may have noticed that I use the term pension office as a simple way to refer to the agency. Its official name changed several times so pension office is very convenient. But you can see here in 1888, its name at that time and for many years was the Bureau of Pensions. Here's the bottom part of that same little paper assigned by both the acting medical examiner and the medical referee. This is a notice to be examined by the pension office's choice of examining surgeons. This examination was required every year or two years for many veterans depending on the nature of disabilities claimed. It's actually fairly rare to see these notices in a file since they were sent to the claimant. This man, Lyman Partial, asked for a new date because he was unable to make the trip in the winter when the weather was bad. These are the instructions to the examining surgeon on what to do. These doctors were not full-time government employees. They were doctors in private practice in the county seat who did this for a per capita fee for the government. From the 1860s to the early 1880s, the examining surgeon consisted of just one doctor normally at the county seat. And on the screen is an example of that kind of report. Beginning in the early 1880s, the pension office appointed a board of three examining surgeons. Every county had a board. If you thought your county's board was unfair or biased, you could request to be sent to a different county's board for examination. While 19th century medical descriptions may not be useful today, do pay attention to what these forms say. On this one, Morris Birthplace is given as Clay County, Missouri, a detail not given on other forms like this in the file. This is the reverse side complete with outlines of human figures, including the proverbial fig leaf. It's unusual for these human figures to be marked, this one does have lengths annotated on the arms. And here's another one from Morris File, which does not give his birthplace. And the reverse side, on this one, we get various lengths annotated on the legs. You may find in the file evidence of congressional passage of a special act of Congress for the benefit of the veteran or widow or other claimant. If you do, the records of Congress are at the National Archives and our Center for Legislative Archives can assist you in locating the appropriate records. The pension office was concerned that pension lawyers not take advantage of claimants. In this file is a copy of Morris' fee agreement with a lawyer, which was submitted to the pension office to show that the lawyer's fees were within the limits allowable by law. Eventually, if the veteran lived long enough, he could get a pension simply by being old and that point didn't need to prove disability, but they did have to prove age. In this affidavit, Samuel Sayers in 1912 says, he could not furnish the evidence required because his parents and all his siblings were dead. His mother, who died in 1865, had a record, but he didn't know where it was. He had been joked about being born the same year the state of Michigan was, the year it was admitted to the Union, the same month and almost the same day. So he says, I certainly was born January 7th, 1837. In a different approach, Edward Seaman took his family Bible to another republic who swore out this affidavit in 1913 that says the Bible shows Edward M. Seaman who had been born October 17, 1848. In 1898 and again in 1915, the pension office and a family data circular to veterans asking for the name of the wife, date of marriage and where and by whom it was performed, names of children and their dates of birth. Some veterans indicated if the wife or children were dead. And here's an example of a 1915 family data circular. Among the things you may find in the file is a dropped card indicating the date of the pensioner's death. And for fun, here's the reverse side with those great file stamps first arriving in the pension office on August 29, 1910 with action taken in the finance division the same day and the Civil War division the next day. Turning now to pension files with widows. The soldier or sailor had to be dead. The widow had to have been married to him while he was alive. She could not be remarried or any later husbands had to be deceased. In the 1890s, she could not own a valuable property and she could collect monies owed the veteran at the time of his death. A widow might prove her husband was dead by sending in a death certificate such as this one for John W. Moore. Or it might be something like this, a record of death kept by a national home for disabled volunteer soldiers. This one is for Walter Reines who died in 1927. Some files after 1900 include claims for final expenses. This is the $25 bill for nursing care for Enos Palmer in his last sickness. Some may have funeral expenses. Here's the $125 bill for casket box, hearse chairs, device and personal services of the undertaker for Enos Palmer in 1913. And the $5 bill for the section services at the cemetery. And a funeral bill for a different man for $132 about the same period of time. The widow's declaration for pension identifies her, her husband, his date of death and his war service. If there were any minor children there are also listed here. Here, this is the reverse side. This particular form has the requirements of the Pension Act of April 19, 1908. So you can read it to see what the requirements and benefits were. To prove marriage, the widow might send in her marriage certificate as the widow of John W. Moore did. It might instead be a copy of the record kept at the county courthouse, such as this certified copy for Russell Reines and Sarah Norton. The pension office was fairly liberal on proof of marriage. Many places in the United States didn't keep records of marriages in the 19th century. Affidavits from friends or family who attended the wedding ceremony were acceptable proof. Affidavits from people in the community that the couple held themselves out to be married and were considered married in the community were acceptable. In this affidavit, John W. Moore's daughter by his first marriage says that Moore's first wife died about 1873 and then he married the second wife Anna in 1875. In this affidavit, James McD Hayes says that Moore and his wife were held themselves out as being married and were so considered by the community and the widow had not remarried. In the 1890s, the widow had to show that she did not own property that was particularly valuable. So this affidavit of property assessment from the county auditor indicates widow John Stillwell owned 10 acres of land in Highland County, Ohio that was valued for tax purposes at only $130. This is the widow's application for the accrued pension owed to her husband at the time of his death. Pensions were paid in arrears, not in advance. So if you were paid say in March and died in June, there was about three months of pension monies owed that you hadn't collected that your widow or heirs could collect. Here's an action sheet showing the approval for payment of pension arrears to Anna Moore, widow of John Moore. And here's a drop card for the widow when she died indicating the death of January 23, 1917. By 1917, checks were sent in the mail and the postmaster knew to send it back if the claimant was dead, according to instructions on the outside of the envelope. This is a notification to the finance division of the Bureau of Pensions that the widow was dead. You may find letters from other family members. Here the widow's daughter writes to ask whether she can get the widow's last pension check to help pay funeral expenses. And now quickly we'll look at Miner's claims. There is a declaration by the guardian which lists the children, their birth dates and the date of marriage of the parents. A copy of the appointment of the guardian as well. This is the court order which grants authority to the guardian to transact the Miner's business. This is often a man, not the mother of the children. And finally, for a dependent mother's or father's claim, the declaration needs to provide evidence of the marriage of the soldier's parents, evidence of birth of the soldier's son, that the mother or father is poor and was depended upon the soldier for support. The declaration must indicate who are or were their other children and why they were not of any help. And so that is Union Civil War pensions in a nutshell. For more information about genealogically useful and the records in the National Archives, I recommend the guide to genealogical research at the National Archives which is available from our online bookstore and is also in many libraries nationwide. Now thank you for your attention today. Are there any questions? Thank you Claire for that excellent presentation. We do have several questions for you. Bring them up. Several people want to know, when you request a file and they send copies, do you get the entire file? And if you do get the file, does that include pieces that might not be clear or? I believe that when you order a file, you have the option either to choose a pension packet or to choose the entire file. Choosing the entire file is expensive and I recognize that. But I do recommend that. It's certainly possible that you may receive copies that are not particularly clear. For the reason that some of the papers may be darkened in color from the passage of time. Some inks that people use to have faded with time. So there certainly is a possible, it is certainly possible that some pieces of paper may be less legible than others. I mean, that's always a risk in archival research. Thank you. We have several more questions. The next question is about ethnicity. Do pension records indicate ethnicity of the individual or surviving spouse? I'd say that the only time it really indicates the ethnicity of the person is if, for example, they were foreign born, so that someone who was born in Germany, they might say somewhere in there that they were born in Germany might indicate a area in Germany or even perhaps a specific village. But in general, there would not be a reason to state that. Thank you, Claire. And then we have lots of acronyms and we had the question come up. What determines if an XC or a C file is with NARA or the VA? All right, I may get into trouble for answering this question, but I'll take my best stab at it. My understanding is that we have XC numbers basically under a million and over 2.5 million. There are certainly exceptions and we do continue to get XC and C files from the VA. So like I said at the beginning, start with the National Archives and if we don't have it, we'll tell you where to write. Excellent. Thank you very much. We have one more question for you. This is about in aliases. My ancestors card lists an alias. Will the pension file tell me why he had an alias? Well, I certainly hope it does tell you why he had an alias and if for example say he served under that alias and then applied for a pension under his real name or his other name as the case may be, he would undoubtedly have to explain why his service was under the name of this other person and to prove why it is he and that person would be the same person. So I would expect there should be some information in the file on that. Our next question is about colored troops. The question is, are the colored troops separated from the white soldiers? No, they're all under files. Thank you. We have a question. You might have covered this but it might be worth going over again. Approximately what's the cost to obtain a file? The current cost information is on our website and I'm gonna leave that as my answer because that will change of course over the passage of time and since this video was going online, things may change in five or 10 years if this is still online. So please check our website for the current cost information. I believe that's all of our questions that have come in from the public. Thank you. Thank you for being here today. For your questions and thank you Claire for your answers. The next session will start on the hour one p.m. Eastern time and it'll be on federal penitentiary records.