 Welcome to American Issues Take One. I'm Tim Apachele, your host, and today's title is Understanding Mega-Friends Family in 2024. We are going to next month be around the table, the Thanksgiving table, and no doubt, we will have a lot of people that will discuss politics and religion, and two topics that will come up, no doubt, will be the unfortunate events that are taking place in Israel right now, and certainly politics of the United States, that is the 2024 presidential campaign. And as we venture into these waters, these sensitive waters of thorny issues, one will always come up is, to what degree is the GOP going to support Israel? That'll be one. And two is, how many of our friends and family are dedicated mega-Trump followers? For me personally, I have a hard time working with, interacting with those individuals that are hardened Trump supporters after the January 6th attack on the Capitol, and why is that? Well, I do believe, and I've looked at the indictments, and I do believe that Donald Trump had a direct hand in the insurrection and the attack on the Capitol. He has planned to try to stop the process of a lawful election, the transference of power, and I believe that that was further evidenced by the fact that he said the election was stolen from him, and he's the rightful president of the United States. Now, that's my bridge too far. Now, maybe other people have a different bridge. If I'm a veteran, I'm certainly gonna look at what Trump has said about the World War I dead, the 1800 Marine gravesites, and his refusal to visit that gravesite because he thought they were suckers and losers. That story that took place in 2018 in the Atlantic was confirmed recently by Trump's first chief of staff, and General John Kelly. Maybe that's a bridge too far for veterans. Maybe it's the fact that Donald Trump is guilty of business fraud in New York state. Maybe he's guilty of sexual assault, of E.G. and Carol. Maybe for some people that's a bridge too far. Maybe the most important bridge too far for all Americans, I think, is Donald Trump's secret desire, or not secret, but overt desire to convert our 240 year democracy into some kind of autocracy or even possible fascist state. I think that's on the table for 2024 and beyond if he's elected president again. So we all have a bridge too far, and it depends on where your bridge is and what's the topic. I'm sure Donald Trump has breached it. To discuss this topic, I have my co-host Jay Fiedel and our special esteemed guest, Vicky Cayetano. Thank you both for coming on the show and again, in the light of some very difficult news that we're getting about the horrific slaughter of Israelis from Hamas and the Palestinians. Thank you. Jay, to you, before we talk about where we're at in Congress, what's your feeling about the GOP's support at this point for Israel? Are you feeling confident that they'll be there for Israel? Joe Biden, President Biden came out very forceful in explicit terms that we will stand with Israel and we will stand by their side. Your thoughts? Wow. I have so many thoughts about Israel these days. It's hard to know where to begin. But I'll tell you, I looked up Steve Scolese, who's the front-runner for Speaker and he made a very strong statement in favor of Israel, just a day or two ago. And although there are other things, you wonder about him, the fact is that he's strong on Israel. So that sort of suggests that the Republicans, at least under his leadership, will want to support Israel. But what I want to say though, and you guys can react and tell me your thoughts about this, is it's all connected, the indictments, the crazy people in the MAGA GOP, the crazy people who would oppose aid to Ukraine. And now, most recently, there have been a number of articles over the past day or two about these BDS students, BDS boycott, divest, and something else against Israel on the college campuses. And our institutions of higher education are rife with chapters of BDS. It's an organization. It's pro-Palestinian. We have it here in Hawaii. We have it here at UH. And so these people, including in the newspaper, both Harvard and Yale have protests for the Palestinians and against Israel right now. Right now, as there are still militants shooting Israelis in Southern Israel. Right now, as Hamas is still firing missiles all over Israel and trying to get Hezbollah to join them and the Palestinians in the West Bank to join them to make it an all-out war on all sides. And that is truly disgusting in these United States and to have students who are so misguided all over the country and in our best institutions campaigning and protesting against Israel as Israel is being mangled by this horrendous war attack. So I'm thinking, and these are left-wing people, I'm thinking that what's happening here is going to change the complexion, change the political landscape of the country. If the left does this, where does the right go? And is the right the same when you see the left doing this and is the middle the same? Maybe not. Maybe this is a game changer politically. And I really think it's going to have an effect on our topic today. It's gonna have an effect on where the Republicans are and where the left is in this country. It's gonna change things. Well, let me address that before I ask Vicki the next question. And that is those that are supporting the Palestinians in this event, they're our friends, they're our family. And how do we reconcile our feelings towards them and how do we deal with them on a day-to-day basis or around the Thanksgiving Day table? Not unlike those who support Donald Trump to the nth degree. I mean, how in our hearts do we maintain these relationships with civility knowing that inside we may be seething for their support of such topics or such candidates or such former presidents? So with that in mind, Vicki, let me ask you this question and how would you describe where we are today with what Jay just mentioned and where we are today with those who adamantly support Donald Trump as the next president of the United States? How we describe that social divide in this country with the rest of Americans and how does that change or not change in 2024? You know, I appreciate what you both have said and I think one of the biggest challenges is that we are as a country so polarized now. It's almost concerning that we might have civil war in our own country. The extremism between the left and the right, you know? And as you mentioned, Tim, we have friends who are on those sides. You know, when I have people I know, people I respect who support Donald Trump, one of the things I feel is that they're very misguided. What they feel is what they support is what he is talking about in terms of the concern of the threat from the extreme left. But when I talk to them about the kind of actions and the character of this or lack of character of this person, it really makes them start changing their point about him specifically. It's not the policy, it's him as a person that is so unacceptable and what he brings to the table, you know? To incite violence and to challenge the democracy in our country. It really makes them think twice. I do feel that we have resonates with independence, certainly not Democrats. It's the Republican Party. It's those who call themselves Republicans who feel threatened in their way of life, who feel that immigrants coming in are taking away their jobs, who have those type of misguided thoughts. And I think that for them I have to ask, can you not find a better leader than Donald Trump? I mean, you look at him in the polls in spite of what is it, 103 charges that he's facing, they he is still the front runner, how can this be? And so when I have candid conversations with them, a number of them believe that the media is really making up a lot of this or exaggerating it, they're very misguided. And I think that Fox News and those types of media sources have not helped the situation at all, creating all this misinformation, social media, another one. So yeah, around Thanksgiving table, I hope that we can have discussions to help bring our country back to a better place and not find our own families being torn apart because families are the fabric of our country. Great point. Vicki, you seem to be one of the rare individuals and I know Jay, you are, and I think I am too, is to actually bring up the subject of Donald Trump and his character and his actions, his deplorable actions in the past and in currently. That takes some courage because you risk losing relationships. And I guess the question is, should Americans speak out more about Donald Trump and the things that are in the diet mints, the many things that he'll be on trial for, should that be brought up other than one time a year around the Thanksgiving dinner table? Or should that be brought up in casual conversations or should Americans be polite and silent? Vicki, to you on that question. Well, my sister always says, please, no politics around the dinner table. Well, your first lady, politics goes with the meal. That's right, and I don't think you can tell my husband not to talk about that. I think the key thing is really to differentiate and not to take people who have different ideas from us to demonize them, but to really help them understand why their reasoning, their thought process is so illogical and so that it's not correct and that it's putting us in the path of destruction. I think if we genuinely feel that way, we can talk about it in a civilized manner without losing respect for the individual. I think that's what's key, not to demonize people who have different thoughts from us, but to really help them to see how wrong their thought process is and what the consequences will be if we have a Donald Trump. Great point, and you said the word logical. You know, when those who are following a cult figure, logic doesn't always play into the conversations or the rationale of why they're supporting Donald Trump. So that's a steep pill to climb, Vicki, and hats off to you for trying to do that. Jay, I've witnessed you in many an elevator conducting impromptu interviews or questions about politics, Donald Trump. Where do you go in the next three months in the elevators you travel in? Do you bring up these topics? How are you gonna contend with, A, the GOP and what their position is on Israel and the support of Israel? And B, to what degree do they see Donald Trump as their best president ever? Cause I've heard that comment many times. When you put the two issues together, it's hard. And when you put that together with family, it's hard. And I don't do it in the elevator anymore. It's too hard to escape the elevator if I somehow provoke violence. In all these years, Tim, I have not been able to convince one single Trumper that he's wrong. I'm waiting for somebody to say to me, Jay, I was wrong. I should have listened, but I should have educated myself. I have not heard that from one single Trumper, not one anywhere. But Jay, can I just interject? Do you, I think maybe you've convinced them or gotten them to get smart about it, but let's face it, not many people are going to ever acknowledge that they were wrong. That's a hard thing for humans to do, absolutely. It's true, but I have no metric on whether my comments have been successful or not. And still we have people out there, not only in the base, but in Hawaii now, right? Who are Trumpers? Some say a third, a third of our electorate here in Hawaii, Trumpers, still today. You know, I keep thinking of that old the aphorism in the land of blind people, the one-eyed man is king. And I think we are in the land of blind people. I think they didn't study civics. They don't read the newspaper. They don't actually discuss this issue with anyone and no one discusses it with them. So they are lost in their bubble and their bubble is a bubble of ignorance. Query, has that changed? Will that change by Thanksgiving? I don't think so. Indictments and trials are not, but what I said before may still go. If we have other issues, other divisiveness, other threats to the world order that are happening right now, like in Israel, maybe that shakes it up a little. Maybe people say, hmm, I think I'd better reconsider my worldview here. Maybe it's not limited to my shoelaces. So I think what we have is slightly unpredictable at Thanksgiving, but final point here is that I think we all ought to have the chutzpah at the Thanksgiving table to look over the turkey and call the other guy on the other side of the turkey and see where in the world are you coming from? The good news is it's not an elevator, he's not gonna hit you. The bad news is you may disrupt the karma of the Thanksgiving dinner, but it's an opportunity for you to call him out. And calling him out, I would take a journalistic point of view on this. If you're a journalist and you wanna make the point, you ask questions. And you say, but haven't you heard of XYZ kind of thing? It doesn't that affect your thinking. And the other thing that a journalist would do, he would say, or she would say, some people say that Donald Trump is out of his mind. Are they all wrong? Some people, does some people lead in? And so those two things could be useful as you're looking over the turkey at the truck. I've seen many a wild drumstick fly in the air over a hotly contested debates at the table, so you never know. But I think you have to have those conversations more now than ever. Well, that's- Consider it practice for the elevator, practice for the street. All right, that was the question I asked Vicki. Yeah, I mean, I said, I asked Vicki should Americans be silent about Trump and particularly his agenda of converting our democracy into an autocracy or worse yet a fascist state, which I'm inclined to believe that is the agenda. So Vicki to you, in 2016, 2020, we didn't really know exactly how we were going to feel about those who supported Trump, our friends and family. And a lot of those relationships split up. They haven't reunited. We haven't had reconciliation of family and friends because of Donald Trump, the great polarizer. Do we see more, and I know you're not a sociologist, but do we see more carnage in relationships in this country as a result of the more extreme positions Donald Trump is going to take or has taken recently? Well, you know, at least for my, and I realize this relatively small circle of people I've talked to, I will tell you that a number of them who said they voted for him the first time around, they did not vote for him the second time around. And to some of my friends who say what, you think all the Democrats are so perfect? I say to them, no, far from it, but nobody has brought this country to the brink of anarchy that Donald Trump has done. That is what is at stake, my friend. Not to say that any candidate is perfect, but look at the damage that he's done. Look at what he's done to our country. And when I say that, it really makes them start thinking about it. We're not opposed to opinions and philosophies that are different from ours. That's what makes this country so great. But what we're opposed to is an individual who commands a leadership role, then uses that to bring this country to the brink of civil war. And I really think that is a possible reality if he were elected. Just our curiosity, when you say these things, do they contemplate your words or do they have an immediate response, a defense response I sometimes call it? I think when you lay out the evidence in a way that is, like I said, not making them feel that they are on trial, they're much more open-minded to say, I can stay a Republican, but I need to look for a different candidate. The problem, frankly, is that outside of Donald Trump, if you look at all the other candidates, there is a lot of discord and not a lot of unity among themselves. I think this is why as a party, both in this state and in the country, they're really struggling. And I think that is one thing that Trump does is find a very convoluted way of unifying them, that the other candidates somehow are not able to do. That's the challenge for them. Yeah, I think that's a great point now. If you look at the House of Representatives, clearly we have the case of the tail wagging the dog. We have a handful of mega-Trumpers, mega-supporters that is influencing the rest of the GOP, I think against their will, but they're just fearful of speaking out. And if Steve Scalise happens to get the nomination, I think he is the selected candidate right now, maybe it is in his best interest to reach across the aisle to Democrats and get bipartisanship going again in the House of Representatives. And maybe that extends to the Senate as well, but the Senate seems to be a lot better at it. Your thoughts on taking that risk of talking to Democrats or the House of Representatives extending a hand across the aisle to get things done and have some semblance of order? Well, I'm afraid that in our Congress today, so many decisions are made not based on logic, but really on politics. And it almost seems that that is the order of the day in order to survive there. But I certainly hope that moderates from both parties will prevail. And hopefully Steve Scalise is more of a moderate than the other candidate, and that there will be a way to support him so that we can get things done. And I think for the Democrats, they also need to do their part and make sure that we don't have too much of the extremism in our party that only polarizes the country as well in its own way. Great point, thank you. Jen, I'm gonna go back to the question I asked Vicki initially, and that is, how do you describe the social divide between the MAGA GOP and the rest of Americans? And what's your prediction as far as that divide going into 2024? Uh-oh, I'm not giving you any predictions here. No predictions are possible. But let me say that, how do I describe it? It's civil war. In fact- Is it a cold civil war or a lukewarm medium or are we going in the hot? It's a civil insurrection. It is a continuation of January 6th. It's like, you know, the MAGA GOP said, well, you know, that didn't work out so well on January 6th. We really couldn't get it together. Wait, let's take another tack here. Let's be smarter this time. Let's just have an insurrection within Congress. Nobody breaks windows, but we all take our various positions and blow up the country. It's a civil war. It's a continuation of the insurrection. And Trump is orchestrating it. The best news possible is that, you know, Jim Jordan is not gonna be speaker because he is a complete acolyte to Trump. He mouths what Trump had to say. And McCarthy was the same. McCarthy was worse in the sense that he was an acolyte to Marjorie Monster. So what you have now is at least the possibility of an independent Republican speaker. And maybe he could change things. So if you ask me to predict what's gonna happen, I can't because I don't know what Scalise is gonna do. I don't know what he's capable of. Maybe he changes the paradigm. As I said before, maybe the Israeli war attack on Israel, including, you know, other countries like Iran. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal today about how Iran was actively involved, not only in the funding and the weapons, but in the actual green light of this attack. And so what you have is other countries involved. And maybe this makes the Republicans less isolationist. If Ukraine didn't do it, maybe this one will. And maybe we have a sort of a global view of things. As I said before, this could change the paradigm even by Thanksgiving. The other thing I wanted to mention is that one of the points of ignorance in this land of blind people is that they do not see what happens if you don't have the rule of law, if you don't have the constitution. What is life like? You know, there's been some fiction about that, but I don't think people understand, you know, Charles Dickinson, the ghost of Christmas future. What is it like for Ebenezer Scrooge who ignores all these issues and who does not appreciate the future? I think we must all appreciate the future. It's a future without civil liberties. It's a future where the IRS is a weapon, where the intelligence agencies are weapons. And if you speak against the power, you wind up in jail for 20 years. That's what we have in Russia and other autocracies. And that is exactly what we would have with Trump. I don't think people understand that. It will not be business as usual. The assumptions of freedom and democracy and expression will go away under Trump. All right. Jay, I do. On the other hand, and it's not on the other hand, but one thing I will have to say too is that when I talk to people and they feel like they cannot walk safely in the streets anymore or businesses who people can openly come in and take things in as long as it's under $1,000. They don't get charged with any crime. They feel hijacked. They feel like they're prisoners within their own world. And that's what drives this extremism. This is what I'm saying. And we need to really balance the two and listen to both sides. It's the only way, I think, that we can try to bring a very polarized nation back to the center. Well, I think Trump has exacerbated that. And if you ask me whether I would prefer a community with the shopkeepers didn't feel safe and the pedestrians may be worried and looked over their shoulders, they walked down the Fort Street ball, which is through these days. There's no comparison between those risks and threats and the notion of not being able to have this conversation here on ThinkTech, not being able to write up your thoughts and send them to the newspaper to have a newspaper. Remember, newspapers are enemies of the people. They will go away under Trump. We will have propaganda like in Russia, like under Putin. So if you ask me to choose between the loss of civil liberties for everybody and the loss of some degree of personal security, I would take the latter because I believe that we make too light of our civil liberties. We are complacent. We take them for granted. This is a huge error. There is no guarantee that democracy will prevail or that our freedoms will prevail. Great point, Jay. I'm gonna follow up on that question with you. And that is to what degree does what you just said become a primary issue of the presidential campaign of 2024. Does that issue of personal freedoms and the continuation of the Republic and the democracy, does that issue hit front and center stage in 2024? Good question. Only if Biden talks about it, but he hasn't really. In fact, I would say that even the people on the media don't talk about it. This is the ghost of Christmas future. This is Charles Dickens. We really have to see it clearly and we don't because nobody warns us except here on Think Tech. Vicki, to you the same question. Does this issue of the Constitution, the rule of law, does that become a primary platform issue for the Democrats and will the independents recognize it and support it in the efforts to defeat Donald Trump in 2024? What's your feeling and thoughts about that point? Well, I agree with Jay. I don't think it's being talked enough about and I don't think the general public understands that because on the one hand, if you think about it in a different type of freedom, you've never seen more freedom. People do anything they want these days. And I think there's- Including guns. Including guns as freedom to have guns and shoot people. That's freedom too, I suppose. If we took the guns away, things would be better. So I think there's a confusion of that type of freedom versus the freedom that Jay is talking about. I think that's why I appreciate when you folks do at Think Tech because you get the straight news and we're talking about matters that very few people either have the thought or the time to think about it and it's important. All right. Well, we've run out of time so I'd like to go ask you, Vicki, your last thoughts about this topic or any other topic that's hit the news here. Well, as we gather around for Thanksgiving, I hope that as families talk about things, they will find a way to navigate through difficult discussions without tearing the family apart and use it as a time to really create ways of how we can find things that we have in common because at the end of the day, we all want the safety of our children, the freedom for them, for us to live in and look for things that bring us together, not divide us. Otherwise, I'm not sure that a civil war isn't around the corner for us. It really is, very concerning. Excellent point, Vicki, thank you. Jay, your final thoughts, please. I'm with you, Vicki. I'm worried about a civil war and I'm worried about what each of us can do. We all have an obligation, a duty to protect the democracy, the constitution, the rule of law. So many people are complacent. They figure this is just gonna go away. Not, it's not gonna go away. And Thanksgiving is a good time, but every day is a good time. It's a good time to call people out and make it clear to them that the ghost of Christmas future is right out there. Now, having a scapegoat, having an issue that takes you away from what we have been doing in this country, that the damage and destruction that Trump has done to us, it may be the attack on Israel. It may be that we galvanize around protecting an obvious democracy in the Middle East. It may be clarifying somehow. I don't know how, but I believe that it is should be a subject to be discussed and analyzed at the Thanksgiving table over the Turkey to the Turkey. All right. I'd like to thank you both for your thoughts, your words. I'd like to thank you both for your dedication to the principles of democracy, to our country's democracy and rule of law. And I'd like to thank you, both of you, for being true patriots of this country. And with that, Jay Fidel, thank you for being our co-host today and to our special esteemed guest, Vicky Cayetano. Thank you for joining us and sharing your thoughts and words. Thank you. Won't you join us next week for American Issues Take One? I'm Tim Appichelle, your host. And until then, aloha.