 We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These words from the Declaration of Independence are familiar to many of us, and yet it took 143 years for women to get the right to vote and 189 years for black people to get the right to vote. And still today, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are still only words for many people. Here in Boston, life expectancy varies by 30 years depending on where you live. In Roxbury, with many poor and black people, life expectancy is 59 years. In the back bay, wealthy and mostly white life expectancy is 91 years. It's tough to have liberty when you are in prison. The United States incarcerates 716 people for every 100,000 people. Our rate of incarceration is more than five times higher than most countries in the world. Millions of people in our country don't have health care, a decent job, good education, a home they can afford, and that makes it pretty hard to pursue happiness. So on this show, you are going to meet people who are making it possible to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. People today who are making the words of the Declaration of Independence come true. Hi, my name's Michael Jacoby-Brown and I'm your host of We Hold These Truths. And we're very honored and privileged to have Gerti Lahan, a colleague and friend of mine here as our guest. Gerti, welcome to We Hold These Truths. And I'd like you to say a little bit about your background, where you were born and what your family was like, and where you got the values that you hold today. Thanks. Thank you for having me, Michael. And I was born and raised in Port-au-Prince, Haiti. And just being a Haitian really make me have this extra zest to do things right. But I was raised by a gentleman, my father, my own mother. He would, we were well off. He was working because I think he was a mother. He had 11 brothers and sisters. So his dad passed away in his early age. So he had to go to learn to be a mechanic. And all his life, he worked as a mechanic for the Haitian American Sugar Company. And on the side, he was selling just construction materials. And so we were really well off. But like my cousins will come to the U.S. or to Canada to study. But he would always say to us, I am able to send you you anywhere else to learn more about the world. But I want you to know about yourself first. And I want you to know who you are, to be comfortable about who you are, and not to identify yourself with anyone else. Then you can go and travel the world and bring back. Make sure you never make somebody else's home, your home. So you have to go and bring back what is missing. But never identify yourself with somebody else. And no one in this earth is above you. No one in this earth is above you. And you've put that into action in your life. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit more about some of the things you've done both here and in Haiti. I have tried to do a lot. I have to thank a lot of people that have met here too. And I don't know if I can say that the lead performer was a really good friend and supporter, like a brother. And was able to meet Father Jerry Osterman to GBIO and Lou Fenfer. And I have an old friend now. I have Robert Patton. And I have Thaddeus Miles. And now I'm working with Gen Wembley from MIT who has started the Renaissance project with us to rebuild Haiti after the earthquake of 2010. And I've never left the group and the team. And we are still working because milking also helped a lot. And I was able to take milking to Haiti with Bishop Frank Kelly. Then they were just there to see what I was trying to do because I had started a school, a school there, and a fishing co-op. Really? School and a fishing co-op? And a fishing co-op. And the school will have they go fishing and they have academic. And I was able to travel also with a lot of MIT students when I was working at the Haitian liaison for MIT. And I was with the professor Amy Smith. So we did that for many years. And I would travel every six months with MIT student to go and look at what is needed there. We will live with at least 10 days with families. And then we will go back and implement whatever we see the people will need. And we were doing a lot of one-on-ones. But what was most needed when I did the first school in Petitons was that the fishermen didn't have the way to send their kids to schools. So we had to have our own school. And then after that, we were able to and the school is still running. The school is still there, still running. So when I talk to Mel there and Bishop Frank Kelly, they both still remain very much involved. Mel had helped me with the help of some Harvard students to send down some outboard motors. And I was having my fishermen to build their boat. And we were able to launch also Mel helped me with that to launch a deforestation tackle the deforestation, like a deforestation program. And we will have some little parts where we will grow whatever our fishermen will take and go sell in the talk salon. And then their way back, they'll do the fishing. So and the kids also will learn how to fish. And we work on everything. Even we had another friend of Fr. Jerry Osterman called Bill William Dolan, who has started the Goat Project in Haiti. The What Project? Goat Project. Because I was in the North End in Petitons and Fr. Jerry had the St. Boniface Haiti Foundation program in the South. So Bill Dolan was working with him in the South with the Goat Project that is doing it now wonderfully. Oh, really? Yes. And then so when Mel came back, he wanted to remain involved. Not only he helped me with the Harvard students, with the outboard motors, but also he started a school in Haiti. So that has been running for 10 years now. And now general employer, MIT professor of architecture, he's, we try to have him to adjust the program that he did for us to rebuild Haiti because we're supposed to start an archive in a village, sustainable village, an archive. So now we're trying to adjust the program to make it fit Mel's needs now. That's what we're working on. And we're going to have a campus for Mel's school. And yes, yes, and quite a bouquet. Wow, that's great. Yeah, so we're doing a lot. You are. Right. And you've also done a lot here, I know, in Boston. I know for many years you, when we first met, you were a leader in the Greater Boston Interfaith Organization. And I know there was, you know, that was complicated. There was good, bad, and ugly and different things. I wonder if you can just tell us a little bit about what your experience was like, especially as a black woman, a Haitian woman in what started out as a mostly obviously white organization. And what was some of the experiences you had there in GBIO, the Greater Boston Interfaith Organization? After I lost the first home that I was able to buy when I got here. And I went to MAHA just to learn about the stuff second. So I can help other people not to get to what I went to. And that's how I met Lufenfer, because he was upstairs from MAHA. And then he was the first person who told me about GBIO. And then that was, to me, the dream come true, because I was saying, okay, this is what we should be doing to help people, because no one can do for you better than you can do for yourself. So, and I was saying, okay, this is what I'm looking for, because I want to tell people about me, and I want to tell people that I am a fighter, and I want to tell people that I'm not going to quit. So, and so when I found GBIO, that was the answer to my prayers. So I didn't think GBIO needed me. I needed GBIO. And I got involved in every committee and everything. I was going every Sunday with a father fan, NSWizongoga and Lufenfer to go and invite other parishes to become members of GBIO. And we did that for many, I think, over a year, I think. And then also the one-on-one campaign that was giving me, I should say, the opportunity to talk to people and understanding where they come from and what the problems are and what we can do together. So that was, for me, that's it. And... That was a good part. You also said... There's always a good part. We are human. Right. But I saw, also, I met my pastor through GBIO to a meeting. And I would have to go every Sunday to my church from first service to the last, because I have to present about GBIO, and we have to do the one-on-one meetings, and then we have to have some kind of... Every Sunday. So I was there every day, but I would see them calling and having... Called the organizers, the white organizers, to go to the rectory to have dinner with the priest. I was never called in with my kids. You weren't called in? No. I would stay in the back of the church and sitting down and go to the little convenience store next door to get my kids something to eat, but never was called to have anything to eat. But the white organizers... Yeah, but the white organizers. And even within GBIO, I felt that I was... Sometimes I was invisible, especially when I went to my 10-day training in LA. You felt invisible? Invisible. What do you mean? Can you explain that? I would say that people can... They will call people to talk, but I think even if I would start talking, they ignore me. They will ignore me. And I feel that they will give the men their more kind of a way to express themselves than women. And for me, being Haitian and Black, so I was at the bottom, which I never... I've been before. In GBIO. Yeah, within GBIO. And then I felt that that was the same here. But I have to say that it was some organizers, but I would say that Luffin Fur, I would say that Reverend Heinemeier, who passed... John Heinemeier. John Heinemeier. Yeah, those are... There were a lot of great people that I would say were a whole model to me, and that those are the people that have been just trying to push me because of their ideas and what they have done, especially Luffin Fur. Yeah. And Jean Drake. Oh, blessed memory now. There's his memory. So I have had... And then when I put in the balance and say, okay, I have to do this for myself. I'm not going to go anywhere. That's first. But when I said, okay, those are the people who really... They have their heart in a good place, but they don't know how to really act around Black people, maybe. So when I said, I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to try to change them. If I cannot change them, I'll leave it the way it is, but I'm going to do for me what I'm here to do, because I find great support within the organization, and that was the most important to me. Right. And sometimes you said in the actions, you were put forward in a way that wasn't... You told me comfortable for you or what you would do that wasn't respectful of you. I wonder if you can describe that in more detail. I know we've talked about that in the past. Yes. I have... People sometimes will ask me, okay, do you take your... They will tell me, okay, you've been used as a token. And I felt that. You felt used as a token? As a token, because I think they feel that they want to show that they working with minority. So putting me in front and really will show that to people. Putting you in front, could you describe a story or an instance where that might have happened? I feel like going to the state house, for example, and presenting and talking to political officials. Sometimes I got intimidated because I feel that they were looking down on me. Who was looking down on you? A lot of them. I mean, who? The state house? The state house, yeah. Even some black folks, yeah, because they feel, okay. And some of them said, okay. One of them said, you're just only following people. And I says, yeah, I have to follow to learn because I know when to follow and when to lead. And that's what a good leader is. And when they will tell me, say, you think you are the star of JBL, no, I'm not the star of no place because I want for people to know who I am and to just respect me. I don't need to be no star. And when they will tell me that I have been used as a token. And I said, yes, I know. But when a token opened the door, so I stepped in first. So I'm there too. So how were you used, as you say, as a token? What did, what happened in those cases? Or could you describe that in some detail or? When you feel that you don't belong somewhere, but you, they accept you there because of the color of your skin or what you represent, because I will always tend to tell people, okay, this is what I stand for. And so I think they like that. It is good for them. But at the same time, they feel that they have to accept you. That's the way I felt. But in some cases, but even to some organizers within GBIO did not accept us. That's how I felt. You didn't feel accepted? No. I mean, what did they do or say that led you to feel not accepted? It's just, as I told you, the look. Yeah, the look. Give me the look. Yeah. It's like when you walk in and they look at everybody else and everybody is welcome and they look at you like, did you get lost or something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they say, oh, it's you. Yeah. Or baby talking to you like, I don't speak English. I don't speak English. I know that. But. You speak English fine. I can understand every word you're saying. Yes. But when. That's my first language. I know it's not your first language. It's not mine. So when people are just trying to explain things every time to you, like making you feel like, okay, are you insulting my intelligence? Because I may don't speak English, but I'm not done at all. No, no. Yeah. So it is. So how would they speak to you? Why don't you like role play it for me? Give me like, what would it sound like? Oh, can you do this? If I explain that to you, will you be able to do that? Yeah. Will you be able to do this? Or do you get it? And they will come or they do their things with everybody else. And they will come to you. Do you need help? And I say, no, if I had, need any help, I will come to you. Believe me. I'll ask. Yeah. Yeah. Because, yeah, I'm here to really do for myself. Right. Yeah. Here to do for yourself. You don't need anyone to do for you. Oh, no. Right. Oh, no. And I don't want to stand in the way either. Right. Yeah. So what would you tell organizers, especially perhaps white organizers and black and brown and every kind of organizers are the important things to learn from, you know, all your experience as a leader and an organizer and someone who's, what are the lessons that you think are really important for people that want to work for justice to take on to learn? And what are those? The first and most important thing is to forget about yourself and then to look at what is best for the majority. And then also respecting and knowing and learning everybody's part of you and see how we can not deny no one, but bring all ideas together and sit down and talk about it and see how we can within do something with everybody's input. I think this is the way because if I have to talk to anyone and they will go with something else, I can accept that. But if it is just a pattern where what I said or idea that I will bring was never bring but up to the whole group, then and I feel that I'm not part of this team. So the first to feel have to have people feel included and to feel that, okay, you may not understand everything, but to give yourself some time to learn and showing that you're really learning and you really bringing like if you talk to me about something and with that we didn't discuss I think that would make me feel good if in the next meeting you will say we were talking about this issue and we would like to discuss more. So let people know that their ideas really matter. So you forget about okay what you're bringing and try to learn more than have bringing your own idea because when you're an organizer you go to a place even if you you know a lot about the issue but listen to what other people have to say and how they feel and even how they want to tackle the issue. That you learn a lot because I can tell you having to travel to Haiti and working with youth I have learned so much. I have learned so much from my kids here because they will tell me exactly how things are and how they feel and what they want to do about it. What was the theme for GBIO? So I think that's the way we should do it. Is there other things or other things you think you've learned that you want to make sure other perhaps younger people understand and practice? To get involved. What do you mean? To get involved. I feel that most of the time people like myself they don't think they can make a difference and they see the issue and they say it's a problem but for me it's an adventure. Get involved and it's not going to be easy yeah because you have to be a fighter. You have to be a fighter. There is no choice because us as black people we've got no choice. It's a struggle every day. So how do you get involved if you tell someone to get involved where do they go? What do they do Monday morning or Tuesday morning when they wake up? You have a book that's seen that is a Bible to me. But also you can talk to other people. You don't have to have you don't have to have a place to go and say okay I want to be involved. You just talk to your friends. Just bring them over first. Yeah you talk to your friends to say okay this is something that bothers me. What do you think we can do about it? Great. This is something that bothers me. What do you think we can do about it? Not I but we. No it's always we. And then you listen and you start when things are getting more organized you start taking notes and then you're inviting all the people and because the same problem that other maybe rich people and white people have will have them too. Yeah and more so that it's about time that we do something. Right so invite people over probably going to serve some food and drink right? Definitely. Right what kind of food and drink especially you know. I would ask my guess what do you like? What do you like right? What do you like because if it's for me I will always have my Haitian food because that's the best. Well I like it too right and bottled water right? Of course. Right. Of course. Yeah well thanks. Is there anything else that you think we just have a couple minutes left with this show that you think are important for people who want to work for justice should do or think about? What else? I think it's about time for white folks and to be allies to us with us to say okay if you really a fan or just stand for justice you have to understand the way the workforce now is just not unacceptable it's totally unacceptable and I feel as I said before I want to fight a good fight but I want to see results and I feel that now everything is getting even worse and I know racism is out there and really bad but for you to think that I don't have the right to be now now now no one have that right and also I will be and I will remain and I will live life and but I want for you to get out of the way because I want to do for myself what I have been doing for you. Thank you. Thank you Gertie. Well we're really lucky to have Gertie LaHans who's been an organizer for oh what 50 years or at least yeah I don't have to say uh what year you were born but you've been through a lot and done a lot and I'm Michael Jacoby Brown I'm your host where we hold these truths Gertie LaHans there's a movie about Gertie Gertie's roots uh Gertie is spelled G-E-R-T-H-Y roots like roots of a tree it's uh how long is it I've seen it 15 10 minutes 15 minutes it's a great little movie about some of Gertie's work and Haiti Gertie's roots about Gertie LaHans of Boston here and thank you very much for coming on we hold these truths it's great to see you again thanks for making the trip to the wilds of Burlington and thank you for watching again I'm Michael Jacoby Brown your host where we hold these truths and we hope to see you next time we're on thanks a lot for watching and thank you for having me thank you for coming