 Did you know that as a service designer, you can learn so much from the world of copywriting? That's what this episode is all about. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Joel Klejki and this is the Service Design Show. Hi, I'm Mark and welcome to the Service Design Show. This show is all about helping you to build organizations that put people at the heart of their business. The guest in this episode is Joel Klejki. Joel is a copywriting expert, although he has a much nicer way to express that. I've met and learned about Joel through some of his presentations while I was researching how to write copy text on my course websites to connect better with the people who are searching for that content. And then at some point, I stumbled upon Joel's material and realized that there is a huge overlap between copywriting and service design and it's especially in the research phase. I think you'll be surprised how closely these two fields are related. So to dig into that, in this episode, Joel will be explaining how he does research before writing any type of copy, which kind of tools he's using, and also what we as a service design community can learn and take from that. If this is your first time here on this channel, I want to welcome you and let you know that we bring new videos like these at least once a week. So if you don't want to miss anything, and if you want to level up your service design skills, make sure to click that subscribe button and that bell icon so you'll be notified when new videos are out. That's all for the introduction, and now let's quickly jump into the awesome chat with Joel. Welcome to the show, Joel. Yeah, thanks, excited to be here. Yeah, really nice to have somebody from outside of the service design industry. And I think a lot of people will be surprised by this episode. Joel, for the people who don't know who you are and haven't googled you yet, give us a 30 second introduction. Sure. So my name is Joel Klecky. I am a conversion operator. So I come in and help companies fix problems with conversion, figure out why people aren't buying from them, aren't taking action. And then I help solve those problems using words and design together to drive action. So that's that's my day in and day out. A topic we haven't touched upon the show that much. Joel, I know this is going to be what's the English word? Like it's not a strict question, but it's a question. Is it the strict question? What is the first time you heard about service design? When you emailed me. Exactly. Yeah, no, I was completely oblivious to the field in its entirety. So it wasn't until we had kind of the pre-call for this. I was like, Oh, okay, that's the thing. That's not just a thing. That's a whole industry that a whole lot of people are in. Yeah, we actually had a big, huge conference recently in Canada. So as an industry, yeah. But I can promise for anybody who's listening or watching this will be a really interesting episode. Shall we just dive into the topics you shared with me, Joel? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, and we're going to do it is in the interview jazz style fashion. So drumroll. We're going to start with topic number one. And how could it be something else than the word copywriter? Do you have a question starter that goes along with this one? I do. It's on my phone. So I'm going to put right up there. And the question is, why, why should service design people care at all about what a copywriter can teach and share with them about customer research? Well, this is going to be interesting. So I mean, when it comes to copywriting, I think a lot of people imagine that my job is kind of like the TV show Mad Men where I lock myself in a room and I drink lots of alcohol and I try to be creative and come up with clever lines and bash a keyboard and that's my existence. But what it really looks like is about 90% of my job isn't writing. In fact, most of it is customer research. Most of it is understanding both how people actually behave and then what's influencing or motivating that behavior. So I spend much more time talking to people, tabulating survey data, looking at behavioral analytics than I do actually writing copy. The copy is the end output, but the hard part, the valuable part of what I do is everything that leads up to what comes out the other side. And so there's this tremendous amount of time and energy and effort that goes into informing that process and refining that process. There's always something new that I can learn. And the way that that gets applied, I think there's a lot of parallels based on what we were talking about to the product design role as well. The service design role. Yeah. So isn't sort of the word or the title copywriter a bit misleading? I mean, I think a lot of people, it certainly can be because it's just when you read it, all you imagine is someone who literally writes the copy. But it doesn't do a good job of capturing and getting that whole process that goes into like, how do you decide, how do you know what you should be saying and not just what you should be saying, but why you should be saying it and why you should be saying it that way. And so when I started my career, I came in with the mentality of, well, creativity rules the roost and it's not that you shelve creativity and you put it to bed and you ignore it. It's just when you do the research and when you have this whole battery of different things that you can draw on and not only sharpens the copy that you write, but I find that those constraints, those things that you learn and know, they breed more creativity. Once you know where the goal posts are, then it's much easier to design a play to score a goal or whatever the analogy you want to use is. Yeah. So I will get into the how and what in the later topics, but I'm curious like if you, like you said, you didn't start out in the field that way. It was there a turning point in your career where you thought, well, I need to do more research. Yeah, definitely. I think when I started my career, I was again, I was very much of this mindset that okay, it's creativity and it's finding clever ways. And to me, my initial impression of the field was just try you try to be clever, you try to be memorable. And those things aren't necessarily untrue, but where the rubber really hit the road for me is I came across the work of a fellow Canadian Joanna Wiebe and I had been kind of read as I've been hesitant to get into direct response or conversion copywriting because up until that point, all I'd seen was like the CD sketchy stuff, you know, like those pages with 10 different fonts and like highlighted and boxes of software, even though nobody buys software in a box anymore. And so I didn't want any part of that because it felt like you had to trick people or be manipulative felt like this voodoo black magic. But when I saw Joanna's stuff, everything changed for me because that's when I realized no, she's not doing weird voodoo black magic. There's a real corporate application to this. They don't have to be CD used car salesman like and where does all this great copy come from? And the more that I dug the more I realized like, Oh, all these things that I love about what she's put together all these big wins and great metrics and huge outcomes that she's had, she's constantly pointing back to not creativity, not, you know, sitting in a room brainstorming, but research. And so that's when I realized, okay, that that got me down the path of all this analytic stuff I've been doing at the agency level for SEO stuff that actually has an application here. And then the next place that it really hit for me is when I realized, Hey, all this stuff I'm writing all this research based copy that I'm putting together, it has to work with design. And so then that sparked a hunger for me to understand the world of design better and especially visual. Yeah, visual design, right? Yeah, yeah, we're quite picky about the word designer. Sure. Yeah, visual design. So like the UX of the page or how things, you know, elements are laid out to communicate that copy, you really realize quickly that what you say and how you say it are critically important, but so is the way that you put that forward. If you show people a wall of text, or if you bury the lead, or if you don't have the right visual accompaniment, your copy will never be as powerful as it could be. And so in going down that path, now what excites me day to day is finding new ways to ask better questions, finding new lines of questioning, I can afford to people finding new analytics and tools that can tie all of this qualitative and quantitative together. So it started simply enough, you know, just seeing someone else doing it. And that really blew the doors up and go, holy cow, there's so much that I can absorb and bring into the work here. So we share the same passion for user research asking a question because that makes the rest of the work easier. I'm curious if we also share the same challenge of convincing clients to actually invest in user research upfront. What is your experience with that? Yeah, it's funny. When I approach clients, I actively avoid the word research. I don't lead with the word research because I think the perception for a lot of companies is that research is something you do alone in your basement. Like a nerd, it's just part of the project. There's nothing sexy about it. And so when I'm going into companies and I'm having these conversations, I'll use different language to describe what I'm doing and that seems to hit home for them. So I'll call it analysis and strategy or I'll call it an audit. And then when I'm describing what I'm doing, that's when they go, oh, this is research. But a big turning point for me in my career was realizing that if I led with the term research, if I just talk about user research, everybody thinks they know their customer already or it's like, no, we've been doing this for 10 years, we know who we sell to. And it's like, no, you don't, you really, really don't. And so when I started describing what I was going to do, but also what they would get out of each step. So instead of just saying, we're going to run a customer survey, I started describing, okay, we're going to survey your customers. And here's what I'm going to get out of that. So I'm going to get lots of language and phrases. I'm going to better understand the way they talk about their journey. But also here's what you're going to get. You're going to get headlines and subheadlines you can take back to your ad campaigns. You're going to get a better understanding of the pain points and priorities of your audience. So I changed the way that I talked about it. Or when I'm saying, Hey, we're going to watch recorded user sessions. If there's a less sexy thing on the planet than sitting and watching recorded user sessions, I don't know what it is. But when I said the reason we're going to do this, what I'm going to get out of it is understanding how people interact with your information today, so that I can see what sticky and they pay attention to what they skip right past, what you're going to get out of it is a page that's designed to hold that attention. So changing the way I talked about it, that's helped for sure. And that's basically the user research you did about your own clients, right? Understanding that that there are some words which trigger different emotions for them, which you probably should have. Yeah, yeah, things that make them shut down, things that that make them, you know, hasn't it to pay for for those types of things. So yeah, in some way, I've had to apply that myself to my to my own sales process. Yeah, maybe we'll get into sales later on because I'm sort of really interested in how to sell like this sell this research work. But first, first or second, let's move on into topic number two, Joel, because you talked user research, it's important part of your work. Let's dive into it in this topic like research. So my question here is how much, how much do we actually need to know about a customer in my role to sell to them effectively? And there's essentially there's five core things that I need to go and learn to be effective in my role and to sell to someone and to put together messaging that's going to hit home for them. So those five things, I'll break them down really quick. Sure, let's go. The first one is their pain points. So what is the pain they're feeling? Not just what's the pain they're feeling, but how it woo enough? How does that feel? How do they describe their frustrations? How did they describe what it's like to be stuck or to face that challenge? The next thing that I'll look for is their desired outcome. So everybody thinks, for example, that, okay, with weight loss, for example, this person wants to lose weight, but why do they want to lose weight? What's their desired outcome? Is it so because different people want to lose weight, for example, for different reasons, one might want to keep up with their grandkids, some might be facing a health condition, others might just want to look and feel their best. There's multiple different motivations. So I need to understand that. The next thing I need to know is their anxieties. So during the course of making a decision, what is going to stress them out? What are they going to be hesitant about? What questions are going to be picking at the back of their mind that might keep them from making a decision? Because when I understand those things, I can proactively counter them in the copy. I can answer the question before it even gets asked, but I can't do that until I know what's going on in their heads. The next thing is priorities. So for all those things I just mentioned, pain points, desired outcomes, anxieties, not all are created equal. Some pain points are going to be the most critical to solve. Others are just going to be nice to have. Some anxieties are going to be crippling and keep them from moving ahead. Others are just things that can be quickly resolved once they've already made a purchase. So I need to get a sense of not only how they talk about these things and what they are and how they experience them, but how do they prioritize those? What's most important? And then the last thing, and this is the one that most people in my field ignore and most companies ignore so their work falls on their faces, awareness level. So Eugene Schwartz has this kind of five levels of customer awareness or five levels of awareness. And the way that I sell to someone, the way I write copy to sell to someone changes dramatically based on how much that person either already knows or doesn't know. So for example, if they've already heard of the brand, the product, they know they want the product. The only thing that we or serves, the only thing I have to do is tell them the deal. So I either just need to give them a button to buy or $50 off or whatever. But for someone who's only problem aware, so someone who only knows, oh, I'm dealing with this frustrating situation and may not even know a solution exists, I have to talk to that person way differently. Because if I lead with, here's the price and the buy now button, there's no way in hell that person's ever going to buy that thing because they're not ready for it. So when I understand, you know, someone's in a pain or a problem aware stage, then I have to start with empathy. Hey, that problem really sucks. We totally get it. We talk about it the same way you do. Did you know there's a solution here and here's how it works and here's why it's better. So the whole conversation changes based on where that person is at and how much they already know. So that those five things are what I need to learn. And I think a lot of people will recognize these things. Now, also going back to the question, how much like these are the five main areas that you want to investigate. Still the question remains, how do you know when you have reached enough depth? Do you have a guiding principle for that or is it just experience, intuition? Yeah, I think it's a little bit of a little bit of both. So there are some hard limits that I will push for with clients when we're using different tools. So for example, we'll want to look at a certain number of recorded user sessions. I think the biggest danger is making big assumptions off a small data set. So if we do one customer interview and that person is like, oh, this was most important to me, and we base our whole campaign off that, that's way too small a sample size. Or if I just watch recorded user sessions and I understand what people are doing, but I'm not digging into the why they're doing it on the other side, I can make some dangerous assumptions and write some really bad copy or make changes that aren't going to benefit anybody. So I think it's a matter of, you know, there are some hard limits that I push for. There's nothing magical about these numbers. But for example, I'll typically want 100 survey responses to review so I could start to recognize trends and patterns. I'll typically want to look at at least 20 customer reviews so I can recognize trends and patterns. I'll usually want to do after doing those things at least three customer interviews so I can validate what I've already learned. But the big thing is never using just one source. So always triangulating where you can. What does the survey say? What does the interview say? What does the behavior say? And then getting to a point where at some point, this is where that intuition piece comes in. At some point, as you're going through, you start to recognize, okay, this is a pattern I'm seeing. I'm going to have diminishing returns if I spend a whole another day on this. So at some point, you just have to make the call. Yeah. And it's interesting that you said that there is sort of an exploration phase where you just get a data in the hope to recognize patterns and use a different part of the research to sort of validate your if these patterns are there. And then the big benefit with copy that we don't have as much with services is you can quite quickly draft something based on your assumptions and see how it performs, right? That's, I guess, the third step of research eventually. Yeah, completely. Yeah, we have the power to test and we have the power to form a hypothesis based on what we've learned. And then with a lot of companies get really quick feedback on whether or not that's actually going to move the needle or make a difference. So that's one benefit we have because once you've got, I mean, the big changes are when you need to redesign visually the whole page and layout and flow of a page because that takes design time, visual design time, that takes development time. But when we can test, how does this headline land versus how does this headline land or we can recognize the problem like how does this add, the promise made in this ad correlate with what we're saying on this landing page. We have the novelty being able to make relatively fast changes, see what the impact is, and then either iterate again or then move on to solving the next part of the problem. I'm curious if you've been in a situation where a client has said, well, let's just formulate 10 hypotheses to some AB testing, spend some Facebook advertising money rather than doing that research upfront. Have you ever been in such a situation? Yeah, a lot of people just want to pull the trigger and jump straight to executing. Again, where that tends to come out of is they believe for themselves that they fully understand the customer, they fully understand the problem. And so why are we going to waste all this time doing all this research when we know what's going on? And I see that a lot from the C-suite. The C-suite tends to really believe like, we've got this dialed in, what is this outside copywriter going to teach me about my own customers? So yeah, I have been in situations like that. I think what it comes down to is explaining to them, again, the steps that I'm going through or would like to go through and why I'd like to go through them. And probably the most effective sentence I've found when I'm talking to people in that situation, it's nothing magical, but I just say, listen, why do you want to pay me to guess? Like how confident are you in me to pay me to guess? We can either take a wild shot in the dark or we can have data to support the things we're about to do. And once I think too, when you pull back the curtain on the fact that, hey, this doesn't have to be a month's per copy anyways. It doesn't have to be a month's long process. It doesn't have to be super expensive to get all this intel. A lot of the tools are free or very cheap. It's just time. And so it doesn't have to take forever. It doesn't have to cost so much. We just have to have some conversations. And that's going to help us avoid stepping into massive pitfalls and also help us recognize things that aren't on our radar. I mean, I've got stories about things that at the end of an engagement, clients have told me, like, you understand at this point, things about our customers that we hadn't recognized over the past five, 10 years. And that's not because I'm so great and such a genius. It's just when you bring someone in and they lead you through that research, they have the audacity and the time to ask some of the things that nobody internally would think to ask because they're so used to being so close to the problem. Super recognizable. And you touch upon tools, you said most of the tools are free. Let's jump into topic number three. Sure is not entirely a coincidence. Yeah. So the follow up my question on my side is, all right, we know we need to go get these things. We know, you know, I've alluded to the fact that it doesn't have to be super expensive and take forever. So how can we go and get this information in a cost and time effective way? And there's some simple tools, I'm sure some of them are going to be familiar or you'll have a parallel already that you use. But some of my favorite will start with behavioral tools, things that I can use to analyze how someone interacts with information. So one of my favorite tools is hot jar. There's lots of different iterations of heat mapping and recorded user sessions. But to kind of reiterate what I said earlier, this gives us the clearest picture of how people without knowing they're being observed behave because you can also do, you know, user testing.com and different user testing tools, you can deploy those and give them a specific task to do and kind of test the hypothesis. But the problem is the environment changes when someone knows that what they're doing is being watched. So I love hot jar and heat mapping and recording user session tools because it gives us that kind of uncensored insight into just how broken things really are and how no one interacts the way we expected. And yeah, for the people who are listening and don't have a clue about what the heat maps are, this is like, it shows you where a user points and clicks on a website, right? That basically it shows the behavior on a website. Yeah, it gives you a sense of scroll depth. So how much of the page are they even like, what percentage of people even make it to this section of the site? And then it can give you a sense of attention too. So there'll be, if they spend a bunch of time there, that section will light up like a Christmas tree versus a section that most people are skipping right past. And so to give an analogy to how this would look, if we would have heat maps in the service design field, which we sort of have, it would literally be following people through the journey that they experience with a photo camera on a notebook and trying not to get noticed, not to influence the experience and and seeing observing what they are doing, making notes. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah, you're watching someone actually engage with exactly the service or the product or the copy or whatever it may be. And it gives you the benefit because we make a lot of assumptions, even when I'm, you know, writing a page or when a company has deployed a website, for example, they'll make assumptions that everybody of course is going to use this the way that they imagine. They'll go to the nav, they'll click this and, you know, they'll watch the video and highlight the link and never, never, like they're, they're like some of the most puzzling stuff that you see repeatedly. I've seen this with clients is people clicking on in the nav to the page that they're currently on. So that points to a huge, you know, like clearly something has broken down in communication. So yeah, heat mapping lets you see kind of where, where the mouse goes. Recorded user session gives you a real time look at how they actually click through how they scroll and how they stop. So the two together, one gives you like kind of a high level summary. Recorded session gives you kind of the in the weeds detail. It's not sexy or fun to sit and watch a hundred of these. It takes some time and thankfully, thankfully, there's like the two times speed button. So you can kind of see, you know, quick, you don't have to spend your entire life doing it. But yeah, that's that's one set of tools that makes a huge difference for me in terms of planning and understanding how people actually behave. Customer survey tools. There's one that I really like because it looks fantastic on mobile by default. And so many people fill out surveys and these types of things on the go is type form. So the other thing that I really like about type form is for what I'm doing, we have to ask certain types of questions to weed the wrong people out really, really fast, just like the intelligent survey design. So I have to do a lot of things like asking a question, were you involved in the purchase decision of X product or service? And if they were, I want to show them a totally different set of questions than if they're just an everyday user, because we have to influence the people making the decision to buy just not, you know, not just the people in the weeds of the product every day. So what I love about type form is it uses logic jumps. So where you can design separate question sets or you can also take if somebody's responded with their name in an earlier question, you can bring that back as a variable and call them by name throughout the survey and do dynamic things with it. And it's pretty cost effective. You know, it's not super expensive. It is a paid tool, but it is one that you can switch off after one month of running it and you're out, you know, 40 bucks or something like that. So type form is a fantastic tool in terms of survey design. And especially if you're like me and you're not great at visual design, it gives you templates and some really easy ways to get that done. Yeah. Yeah. Another tool that I really love and is totally free and it saves me hours and hours and hours of tabulation is literally just Google text analyzer. And you can copy all the responses from a field and type form and it will proactively isolate one phrase, you know, keywords, two phrase keywords, three phrase keywords. And so what that allows me to do is really quickly I can see patterns in the language that if I was manually looking for it, I'd have to manually tabulate all that. So it's a big shortcut in terms of when I talked about earlier understanding, you know, not only the pain points, anxieties, desired outcomes, but the priorities and the way people talk about it. That gives me a quick sense of priority. Like if I see people talking about cost or price or fees in a bunch of different ways, I can tabulate that much more quickly and totally free. So that is my favorite free tool on the planet that has put so much time and money back in my pocket. And that makes a big difference when you're trying to understand how people use language and even what's important to them. So yeah, based on these tools, what I'm guessing you're still not getting to the why of why people are doing stuff. Yeah, I mean, you start to see you kind of have to bring the pieces together. So with the quantitative stuff, the analytics, so we'll look at say Google analytics or we'll look at a heat map or we'll look at I'll call a recorded user session because it kind of lives in the nexus of quantitative, qualitative. Those tell us the what the surveys and the interviews, those help us explore the why. So we'll ask questions in an interview or in a survey like some of my favorite survey questions for my field or things like what was going on in your business that sent you looking for a solution like this and questions that turn people into storytellers as opposed to, you know, it was great, it was bad, this that those types of questions help us start to see patterns in the why and help us kind of build a picture of, okay, what is what is the real motivation here? Yeah. Yeah. And I think you phrased it really nicely that once people start to get to get into storytelling mode, it can work in a survey. Just on a in a face to face interview, you sort of have more convincing, yeah, power to convince people to actually go deeper into the story, right? Yeah, I mean, you can ask follow up questions that even the best survey in the world you can't do. And the other thing is, you know, an in person or a video interview can be really disarming because you can read body language and you can see if they're hesitating or if they didn't like a particular question or that sort of thing. So that's why just having structured customer interviews, that's something that I'll do to both explore and kind of inform future survey questions or future hypothesis, but also validate the things we see in the surveys because you can't get the same level of depth or detail when it's just a question set, no matter how good the question set is, that you can't from actually talking to a person about observing the music. And I think from what I've been observing for the last 12 13 years here in the service design field, we tend to start with a really qualitative stuff. We tend to go out to talk to people and we sort of stay away from surveys and heat map kind of things. But I think we definitely can use it more to inform both processes, right? I think using a survey helps you to understand which questions you should be asking during an interview. Yeah, and vice versa, right? Like if I have a great customer interview and I recognize that there's this whole level of questioning I was oblivious to, like to give you an example, like another example that I'll look at, another tool that we'll look at if a company has deployed it is, we'll look at their chat logs. So if they have live chat on the site, I want to go look at what are these unstructured conversations, what questions are they asking, what concerns are they raising, to share a very quick story. I was working on a site that deals with online divorces, and we noticed this mystery that men were converting much better than women, which normally wouldn't stand out, but we know that in the real world, women initiate divorce more often than men. So like, why could this be? Well, when we looked at, you know, and we, we had, they had run some surveys and looked at, is it, is it our service? Is it that our, our site's too masculine? All these kind of weird questions. And what the answer, at least part of the answer was is when we looked at chat conversations, we realized some things that were not on the radar in terms of this customer. So women were far more likely to be fearful of their spouse. They were far more likely to be working multiple jobs to support themselves so they didn't have the time to call in or to engage with people in certain ways. They were far more likely to be the ones having to deal with dependence and those types of questions. And so we realized in looking at some of these unstructured conversations, we're not asking the right questions and we're not talking about the right things in some situations. And so based on those chat logs, we could ask better questions in our surveys, we could ask better questions in our interviews, and we could change the copy on the site. And by introducing some conversations and some language and some copy and bullet points surrounding those things, they added six figures in revenue to their income just by making a very simple introducing a couple bullet points to the site. Because before that, this was a big chasm of information that one customer set was deeply needed to know. But without having conversations or looking at those conversations, there'd be no way for me to get that other than sheer luck out of a survey that didn't consider those factors. So it's conversations I would say are definitely the most important thing I can have in real time. And then the survey again for us and in my field, what that allows us to validate some of these ideas that fail and see, you know, see if 100 people because I can't sit down and interview 100 people, but I can certainly send them an email survey. So the funny thing is you're a copywriter, but we've talked for 30 minutes about research and understanding people. And I guess that's the basis for maybe for any creative, for any designer, I would say for any designer, the better you understand the people who you're designing for, the easier it becomes to actually translate that into your craft, whether it's words, whether it's shaping metal, or it's creating new processes. Yeah, I think people often think about copywriting, we kind of started the conversation with this is this like black magic, voodoo manipulative, am I like huddled in a cave trying to, you know, tinker with people's brains? And it's really not. It's more like jujitsu taking the momentum they already have and showing them, Hey, this is for you. This is a good decision for you. And by the same token, pushing people where it's a bad decision out, I think a misconception about my field is that we're kind of, we can be seedy with it, or we're trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. You see a lot of this kind of hocus pocus countdown timers and big promises and guarantees. That's not really what it's about. At the core, exactly we're saying my job is to empathize with people so much that they see themselves in what I write and the way that I write it so that they can make a great decision to buy a product. Yeah, it's about removing friction and making it easier for them to continue the path they're on. Totally. Yeah. Is there a question that you have for us as a service design community? Anything we can think about ponder upon? I think kind of what you brought brought out because in in our conversation here, even what's reinforced for me is there's a tendency, I think, for me to want to huddle away and focus on the things the big things I can do at scale, even when I know conversations are important. For me, it's kind of remind me, hey, have these interviews and spend the time and do the qualitative. I think the question I would pose back is one that you actually raised and I don't mean to cheat, but it's how can you use some of the tools that I'm using day in and day out or an equivalent for your field that would help you validate some of these ideas or be able to action more quickly or to explore and validate angles already. I think that would be something that would be interesting to ponder and to consider is there a piece we're missing or something we can bring into complement, not change, but complement the process we already have. Yeah, I'm sure there is because research, user research, it spans across multiple design disciplines. So let's see what people come up with in the comments. Joel, finally, for the people who want to reach out and get in touch, what's the best way to do it? Where can they find you? Yeah, two places. So Twitter at Joel Klettke. I respond to everybody. I don't always do it quickly, but I will respond if you shoot me a message or a DM. And then LinkedIn as well, same thing. I'm not always super quick on the job, but if you send me a question or if something, you've got some sort of insight or something to share about your field, I'm always keen to understand how other people get things done because there's parallels for me. So LinkedIn and Twitter probably the two best places. Yeah. And I'll make sure to add them in the show notes and also include a few other cool presentations you've done because that's the way I actually stumbled upon you. So Joel, thanks for bringing us into the world of copywriting. I want to, again, warmly welcome you to the field of service design. I hope you stick around because we can learn a lot from you. Yeah, that was good. Thank you for bringing me into the world of service design. It's just since that first conversation, it's been kind of intriguing for me to sort of explore this and this conversation. And there's so much that I know I can learn from service design and what you're doing and bring back across the mind. So it's been really fun to just be made aware of this field and these great people in it. So this was a little bit different episode than the other ones. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope that Joel brought a new perspective on service design and that we can learn a thing or two from the world of copywriting. If you enjoyed this episode and know someone who might be interested in what we've just discussed, please grab the link and share that with them. You'll help to grow the service design show and you'll also help somebody else with some inspiring content. Thanks so much for watching. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for watching and I'll see you in the next video over here.