 This week on the anxious truth. We have a special guest on the podcast We have psychologist and author dr. David carbonelle is back on the show We're gonna talk about panic attacks how Dave approaches them in his practice and with his clients And we're gonna talk about the second edition of his book the panic attack workbook. So let's get going Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to the anxious truth. This is podcast episode number two zero two in March of 2022 today on the podcast we have Psychologist and author and returning guest dr. David carbonelle from Chicago Dave is pretty much a legend in the anxiety community. I'm fortunate to have him on again today Dave has been practicing in Chicago with many many clients over many many years He's the author of quite a few very well known and well respected books on the topic of anxiety disorders and recovery And today we're gonna talk specifically about his approach to panic attacks And we're gonna talk a little bit about the second edition of his book the panic attacks workbook Which you guys know that I am not about endorsing books and products, but the panic attacks workbook is really a good resource So I don't mind talking about this one at all And that's it. So I had Dave on we did a little zoom interview a couple weeks ago So I'm gonna cut to that quickly and then I will wrap it up at the end as usual before we get started I will just very quick reminder that the anxious truth is more than just podcast at this podcast episode If you're unfamiliar with what I've got going on here and all the information that surrounds the podcast Just head on over to the anxious truth calm to find all the rest of the episodes my books and my morning newsletter And all my free social media contents you go check that out, but I don't want to spend much time on that I really want to get to the interview. It was great. I think you guys are gonna dig it And yeah, here's Dave carbonelle talking about panic attacks and I will come back at the end to wrap it up Like we usually do David carbonelle welcome back. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Yeah So let's talk about this the panic attacks workbook, which is this is a new edition You've rewritten it and updated it and I noticed a very clear reference to streaming horror movies Which might not have been in the first right in the first version of the book You know the first version came out in 04 So I don't think we were doing any streaming then no probably not and when I read that I said, okay Clearly, this is clearly an updated version of the book. So let's talk about it the panic attacks workbook. What is it? You tell me what it is and I'm gonna tell then I'm gonna tell you what I think I got out of reading it And Dave by the way was gracious enough to send me an advanced review. So I have read the book. I've been through it Well, this is a book for people who are Who experience panic attacks and in a variety of circumstances? Maybe they have full-blown Panic disorder and agoraphobia Maybe they just panic in very select situations like like public speaking or they worry about nervous sweating or vomiting But this is a book for people who are struggling with panic attacks and trying to find out What do I have to do to get over this somebody? Please coach me on what are the steps? What is the approach? How can I? Fix this area of my life. So it's it's as much as I could write it a step-by-step approach Here's what to do. Yeah, I think as opposed to just talking about it, which and there's a ton of books I wrote a talk about it and I tried to do the step-by-step approach thing when I when I wrote the anxious truth But really and truly people keep asking me to write a workbook and you did So really Dave's workbook is is for those of you who listen to the podcast regularly have read my my work This this workbook is kind of the workbook that would go along with the anxious truth So I love how you you're not just talking about this problem, but you're stepping people through Did you kind of write it as if you were this as close as I could get to being in a therapy room with you Without actually being in a therapy room. Was that part of that what you were after? Yes, yeah, I wanted the book to read like a Session in my office. Yeah, and in fact That's where I got all the material and the ideas I you know, I learned that from my clients over the years really so it's very much a slice of life of This is what we we would do in the office Came this evening. Let's talk about that like I've learned from my clients over the years So this is an approach what what's in the workbook was clearly informed not only by what you know But probably what's come back to you in the by way of feedback Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, and you could tell when you're writing There's a bunch of stuff in there and it's a great book of the specific fears that you addressed in the book are the same Questions you guys are listening the questions you ask me all the time, but what about this? But what about DPR, but what about this? I'm guessing that the reason why you included those specific fears is because of the feedback you've gotten over the years dealing with your clients Yes, yeah, one of the the major updates of the book is I have a whole bunch of new chapters on topics that the first one didn't cover Nervous sweating depersonalization Nocturnal panic Metaphobia fear of vomiting These are issues that it only became clear to me in my practice many more people struggling with this and and Needing very specific help to those functional areas So there's a whole bunch of new chapters on those very specific Yeah, and then that makes a lot of sense because I could tell you that in the community around the podcast DPR nocturnal panic and a metaphobia are huge themes that I would have never thought I'd be addressing But yet here we are so I love that you included those and Tried to yeah, and I think try just to apply like the steps that I've walked you through in this book Here's how you might apply them in those instances, which was great. I Think sometimes, you know when people are really focused on say a fear of vomiting or a fear of sweating It's easy to not recognize. Well, that actually that's actually a very specific application of panic disorder Yeah, and if you can see how to apply it. We can treat it in much the same way so that that was the Leap I wanted to try and bridge there people often don't recognize, you know How that is a subset of panic disorder and that's what I wanted to show them. Yeah. Yeah, that makes perfect sense So you really went through that the thing that I really dig about this We could I want to talk about discomfort not equaling danger in a second, but Making no mistake that this really is a workbook. So But the thing that I dig about it and let's touch on this for a second before we move on would be You're not only just this is not just instructive There's a bunch of psycho education that goes before the exercises. How important is that you can't just can't just write a book That says do this this and this without telling people why they're doing it, right, right? Well, I think that's essential the trick is to not make the the education so onerous and and and so So lengthy is to leave people thinking. Oh my god. When is he gonna tell me what the steps are? Yeah So I worked very hard to to get that in and make it fairly digestible, but certainly the steps without any of that You know might have just might just strike somebody as well, that's a peculiar idea. I don't think I want to do that It needs some preface. Yeah, it's the why wait. Why am I doing this? I think that's that's critical in this process because it's hard to do scary things if you don't know what you're doing them Yeah, yeah, and basically the cycle out of the psycho education revolves around the fact that Panic disorder and all these related problems are such a paradoxical experience That if you follow your gut instinct about what to do with the panic attack, it's gonna make things worse for you Yeah, and and you really have to go in the opposite direction You know, I called the rule of opposites people have to go in the opposite direction of what their gut instinct is telling them And and right there that that's probably 70% of the psycho education Coming to understand that and what makes that true And I think it's a big ask when you so even when people understand that like okay logically I understand what you're saying finally, but it is difficult to take those first few steps so the way the book is written it really kind of takes you from Almost taking the steps in your head first and really conceptualizing it and there are concrete ways that you can go about Thinking about these things and you give yourself you give the reader examples What about times when you thought this or what about times when you experienced that to lay the foundation and a workbook style Before okay now. Let's actually do some things So as opposed to like do the opposite and now go out and drive to the supermarket by yourself You really ease them in with some examples of think of a time when you thought this Which is really great. Have you found that did that grow out of your experience with dealing with many clients over the years? Yes, I think my experience in the office Is that I could much more quickly help people come to grasp the notion of opposites We might talk of you know, and the most frequent way is someone will come in and Will be sitting face-to-face and they'll explain to me. I had this terrible problem I can't catch my breath and then they might experience that right there in session and boy then then we're on the royal road to fixing this because I'll be able to ask them will shoot, you know, go ahead take a deep breath now Let me see what you do and they try and suck it in and then I could ask them Well, what would be the opposite of that and then we're doing this face-to-face in real time and the opposite of that I don't know look to my left instead of my right and we're eventually gonna, you know get to the point where they realize Oh the opposite of is Yeah, and now they grasp well it works better when I start with an exhale instead of an inhale Yeah Opposite and everything else down the line is gonna follow from that So when a person comes into my office, we can do that and they can have the physical experience of seeing what I'm talking about In the book I had to find ways to offer stories and illustrations and experiments to help them do the same thing Even though they might be 3,000 miles away, right and reading it some different time So that makes sense it really came through and it was super useful So let's talk about the one of the things I think is great. You talked about opposite action You literally wrote this is almost right in the introduction of the book the panic trick brain washes you into thinking and acting in the exact ways That it will keep it alive Which I mean again if you guys have been listening to the podcast you've heard this again and again And now we have another I love how you call it a trick Mm-hmm. Yeah, which is have you found that that helps people to sort of because I find that most people will visualize it as some sort of External enemy monster. Yes. Yeah an opponent the demon You know all those natural spontaneous metaphors for it Which have you know would have the natural result what those metaphors are gonna lead to you lead you to is Fighting resisting fleeing. I either have to fight this off. I have to run away from it That's what we do with enemies. We fight them. We run away from them And if you think of panic as an enemy, you're gonna keep doing that and you're gonna keep getting tricked and into making it worse. So Trick was a nice metaphor that I think helps a lot of people realize oh, wait a minute here I'm not gonna fall for that What's really happening and how can I how can I help my interests rather than feeding into This this deception that I'm experiencing now. Yeah, the thought that came to mind when I was reading is like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football like He knows she's gonna pull it out Lucy's gonna pull it up He falls for it again and again and again, but that's that's the nature of the comic strip But it's thinking of panic as Lucy and the football and I know some younger listeners might not get that But I like that much better than this is a war. This is my enemy. This is my adversaries a monster or a demon very good Very very good. And and it takes you quite literally in much more useful directions than than the demon metaphor That's always gonna betray you. Yeah, I would agree with that 100% One of the things that I really dug to is relax or I'll shoot which was one of the coolest little passages in the book Let's talk about relax or I'll shoot I'll give you guys a little background So Dave walks you through these scenarios where somebody threatens him you yourself using yourself as a subject which is great Like somebody walks in your office and says rearrange all this furniture or I'll kill you and so you rearrange the furniture no problem So, you know, it works, right and it works works just fine Let's do a couple little tasks that are easy to do or I'll kill you and he does the task and it works out great Now the task is relax or I'll kill you Yeah, and boy, that's a tough one There's no good way out of that one No, but that's a perfect way to describe what's going on when people are attempting to I Must calm this down. That's what you're addressing there. I assume. Yes. Yeah, and no sooner did they have that instinct that self-talk I must calm this down. Well, it's already too late Your heart your nervous system your fingers everything is now doing that which will contribute to building and maintaining the panic Yeah, because you don't have to calm this down You know long story short. You just have to wait and let it calm down And when you're trying to do that, that's that's what maintains the anxiety. Yeah, calm down or I'll relax or I'll shoot was really brilliant in a way Another thing that you said you talked to people through a bunch of different things one of the great questions that you asked Which I think is is indicative of how this book is working is Ask yourself. Have you ever had a panic attack that doesn't end is a great question in the book because it really speaks to like That distortion like oh, I'm in continuous panic, but are you really so That was one great thing that you threw out for sure and I'm guessing that's again another thing that you encounter on a regular basis absolutely, I think you know, though if you could listen to a Broadcast of people's thoughts during a panic attack the most prevalent the most persistent is oh my god When's it gonna end? What if it doesn't end? How can I make it end? It's all about Ending I have to make this end and and they're completely Forgetting at that moment To be able to draw on their experience that every panic attack they ever had has ended When they did everything that most brilliantly the best possible way to bring an infrasoft landing when they reacted In all the the most unhelpful ways and did everything and their fear that might make it last longer It literally doesn't matter what they did. They all ended regardless And that's a powerful Reassurance that people tend to forget Yeah, I think so Let's and I'm trying to hit on so many topics here because the book is just chock full of great stuff I one of the things that you brought out which I think was fascinating because I know this is a thing You know the chemicals both chemicals. This is all chemical One of the greatest statements you made in the book is the question that says well How do the chemicals you know what I panic in the supermarket because I have chemical It's the chemicals in my brain and you asked the question in the book. Well, how do the chemicals find out where you are? How do they know that you're in this panic place? Let's talk about that for a second. What's the answer to that? Well, the answer is that the chemicals tell you where you are And how do they tell you that? Well, that's in your own thoughts that you're telling yourself that You know the the point that the story is tell people realize gee This is not a chemical imbalance at all chemical You know what what chemicals do in the supermarket the same thing they do in the drugstore or in the pet shop or or walking to get my mail? When people have this notion the chemicals Well, they feel powerless that they feel like, you know, they're they hapless victim of what the chemicals happen to do to them And that's so I wanted to use that story to help them come back once again to realize It's it's the automatic thoughts I'm having and in particular how those thoughts guide my actions That's what's really at stake here and in determining is the panic in a procedure is it gonna answer? Yeah, and the way you walk the reader through that it reminds them like well, I have agency here I actually have a role. It's this is not just an out of control biological process Contribute here got a role to play. Yes. Yeah, sometimes this is a hard That's sometimes a hard statement because it almost comes off as sounding like well, you're this is your fault. No, no, no It's not your fault. It's just that we have we play a role in it. So you did it you did that In a really messed-for-way. I think with that question I don't think that's what I like about that, you know that chemicals question I remember the first time that occurred to me. I was giving a Talk at a library and somebody asked me that question and I just never kind of thought of it in that way before and I remembered I just kind of blurred it out. Well, I don't the chemicals find out where he aren't everybody laughed and that they they rocked it They wrecked. Oh, yeah. Yeah It made sense to them and on a very intuitive level Yeah, it makes sense in a big way let's talk about And we're just kind of we'll open through the book here But you did a whole chapter which I think was spectacular because this work that you do and everybody listening to the pocket is familiar With this sort of stuff can be really mechanical dry it's almost like engineering and sometimes the resistance is well You're taking away the humanity the compassion the the emotions you did an entire chapter on secrecy and shame Which was was great This is this is an issue that I think often doesn't get talked about enough in Conjunction with this cognitive behavioral approach that we're talking about Yes, yeah And and what people often don't realize that the way I wanted to cast it is What will shame is the feeling and secrecy is your response to having that feeling you try and mitigate it You try and hide it that secrecy is Just another safety behavior as much as avoidance or carrying a support object with you or a safety safety out of having a safety person with you to come to recognize When I feel ashamed and try and hide this that's Another one of the safety behaviors It's kind of making me more more subject to panic and so There's a dual message here. There's nothing to be ashamed of about this So though people commonly feel that and even worse it leads them to get in their own The way of their own recovery I think when we don't talk about that people are stuck in two bad ways They they feel bad and they're encouraged to continue to try and hide this Which makes their recovery more more difficult as well. Yeah, it's a good chapter and it does walk you through again in workbook Stop remember that everything in the book really is geared toward workbook So it's it's you doing some discovery where Dave is kind of guiding you through that which is really great You mentioned safety people you talked about a whole there's a whole chapter about safety people and the safe person as Which I love a safe safe person as a cheerleader as a supporter not a taskmaster Not an accountability partner not somebody who tells you what to do Very common problems also like well, I and you know one of the great statements you made was make sure I think it was right at the end of chapter. Hey, make sure your safe person actually knows they're your safe person Brilliant So that entire chapter was great too because I know it's questions I come up a lot in my discussions and when you say if you could ever listen to people's thoughts and a panic attack like I hear them every I've 35,000 people that tell me their thoughts a panic every day. So you nailed it for sure Let's talk about the safe person relationship and how that fits into this. What's your you know? What should a safe person be in your mind? The safe person Or to be You actually call some person I prefer support person because they're not making you any safer, right? You know, what what does the support person do? Well, ideally they just Hang out with you. They go along for the ride. They play second banana You know some of the suggestions I make her You know that the support person plays this passive role. They don't take the wheel They don't guarantee your safety. They don't continually promise. You're gonna be okay They just come along with you and if there's something you want them to do they'll wait for you to ask They don't take over. They don't take initiative on their own Because when they do those things you tend again to lose your own sense of agency and think well, I'm protected and Kept viable by the presence of my support person So that that that leads people to feel weaker and more vulnerable over time Ideally the support person does nothing Really and I talked in the chapter about ways to you know fade them out Well, if they're going with you in the grocery store have them walk on a parallel aisle Or if you're not ready for that have them walk six feet behind you You'll always be looking to fade them out because Fade out their presence because as long as you rely on a support person That's gonna continue to feed your sense of being vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah, that's that like protect I need protection which you protection is for danger enough for discomfort is one of the great themes that goes through the book the difference Between discomfort and danger You can be really afraid but still safe at the same time, which is kind of That takes some getting used to I mean on one hand We can all kind of recognize that but people instinctively respond to feeling afraid. Well, if I'm afraid then I'm in danger Yeah, there's the there's the trick right there. Yeah, yeah, right exactly This leads me to another thing We're gonna go for maybe another five minutes or so so we don't make this too long and I appreciate your time today by the way is If I am afraid it means My thought tells me this and I am fused to that thought so you did talk it back cognitive diffusion And you reference things like act and dbt Let's talk about that third those third wave sort of therapies How have you had to change over time and I don't I don't I will be honest with you I don't know if those references were in the first version of the book in oh for You know, they were In a fairly preliminary way I worked a lot with the notion of acceptance rather than cognitive restructuring in that first book Already moved away from, you know, classical reliance on cognitive restructuring But they're they're much more central to the to the book today, I don't think I use the term diffusion at the time I just referred to it as acceptance. Yeah, so the the The book digs takes a much deeper dive into let's use cognitive Diffusion rather than cognitive restructuring. Yeah Let's let's change the way we relate to our thoughts rather than try to change the content of our thoughts So I think I I much I make it much more explicit that I think gee if you have trouble with cognitive restructuring It's probably because that often doesn't work so well try this instead Don't keep hammering at it and so many times people have come in to see me and tell me they kind of feel like a Failure because it's hard as they tried they couldn't correct all the errors of their thoughts Yeah, I can't either. I think it's important to in a workbook situation because the workbook is Attached in many ways that concept to some of the old school or sort of second wave Thought restructuring in fact checking in thought records and you know If you write them down you can counter them with other thoughts And I think the concept of a workbooks does bring that up for a lot of people who especially been through more traditional forms of CBT Well, I try to work but it didn't work. He made me write down my thoughts and then challenged them And it didn't matter because when I panicked everything went out the window So yeah, yeah, the fact that you included that in and sort of walk people through that and again It's always examples that you can use Think about a time that you thought this think about a time that how did you relate to that thought? How might you relate differently to the thought? Yeah, I think you did a really good job with that, too Thanks. Yeah, what I like to say about this is that this is not your your grandfather's cognitive behavioral therapy Something very different here. That's very true And I think I'm not sure if your experience or your as you travel in these circles would bear this out But I find that in certain parts of the world especially there is There is a reliance on some of those older school techniques as basic training and we're getting to basic training in a second Because you also make an admission in the book which I think was fascinating I want to come up talk about but a reliance on some of those older school techniques and no that's CBT That's how we treat this and they would they've never changed so they're doing it the way they did it in 1998 and it has not changed so Kudos for bringing it up Yeah, let's talk about control before we sort of wrap it up I'm gonna wrap it up with the putting on the spot But when I talk about control because you you put a whole chapter in on control and so many people will say well the problem This is a control issue. Clearly. I have a control issues Let's talk about for a second What's your take on the whole idea that panic attacks and anxiety is a control issue which I think has a very Analytic bent to it. I control issues. I'm a control freak. Yeah, I like the way you wrote about it Comes up in so many ways and they're mostly, you know self critical and pejorative and make people feel bad I think one of the the big through ways here is that When people are struggling with panic attacks, they tend to think The control is measured by what they feel emotionally And physically and and what their thoughts are And then they feel out of control because they have these wild and wacky thoughts And they can't seem to make them shut up or go away And they have the strong fears and emotions and they can't make that go away and One of the through lines I think to appreciate and this is that control is something we measure by behavior By what you do with your hands and your feet. It's not about what thoughts you have It's not about what feelings you have We don't put somebody in jail because they had a thought about robbing a bank We only put them in jail if they go in with a gun and rob the bank Control is about what you do and not about what you think and feel it and when you think of yourself is out of control Because you're having nasty thoughts or strong negative emotions It misleads you into taking a much more negative you or yourself than it's warranted. Yeah Interesting you when you give up that that idea of control like I have to control what I feel the outcome must be Emotionally based or thought based and start to realize what could act a certain way and believe it or not I'm giving up control, but that gives me more control in the end as it's a very everything about this is a paradox There's almost nothing that makes perfect rolling. What's important. What's more important? Yeah, right exactly There you go like I can put my control in what I do Behavioral lead with the behavior and the thoughts and the emotions will tend to follow behind that Which is also a hard ask especially in the online mental health community where you hear that those crazy like change your thoughts change your life Change your mindset your mind like this is so opposite and it's so hard Somebody like a writing in this agenda. Let me at least acknowledge It's very difficult to write in that direction because you're going against the grain the popular grain so Well, and when you when you're struggling with panic attacks that that's the issue You know your natural instincts are gonna have you to go against the grain and and you need all kinds of different ways To realize oh, no, we're gonna do the opposite of that. I'm gonna I'm gonna go with the grain not against the grain It's great. And so you basically have written an entire it's a very practical book I mean it is a workbook in the truest sense I saw a read, you know a review copy of it, so I don't have to find a layout But there's places to write down your exercises and track your progress and answer the questions So when Dave asks questions in the book there are places where you can literally answer the questions right there in the book Which is great And it's gonna walk you through all of that stuff like why this is a trick and then what you can do about it Recognizing what you're already doing wrong recognizing what you have to do to get better making that plan going through that I keep bringing this back to this if you guys have listened to the podcast for you This is gonna sound very very familiar and I think it's this book is a great companion to what you're listening to here weekly It really is it fits perfectly and when you ask, but how do I well? Here's a book that will tell you here's how do I so I want to wrap it up with one little anecdote that you gave in the beginning of the book Which was early on in your career and you you relayed the story about Somebody who came in and was unfortunate enough to have green Dave Carbonell right out of school As their intake person and that person asked well, I have panic attacks, you know about those right and your answer had to be Yeah, I was an intern this is the story when I was at the VA Yeah Yeah, and this man was very upset and it turned out he had reason to be upset They've been you know putting them through the mill He had missed a couple of sessions So they made him go to the front of the line and start all over and he was being punished for missing sessions and his punishment was coming to talking to Dave And and he knew it You know, I'm asking them all these questions. Well, sir, what are they? I'm having panic attacks You know what they are don't you and I thought oh my god I have to tell them the truth, but I really don't want to know. No, I don't really know When that was very early, okay, you were still in school at the time. I take this is what 1985. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense I think the illustration there is great because so many people are struggling to get through and you know solve this problem I hate to call it a problem that you solve But nonetheless, they're they're dealing with these issues and I feel like I can't find the right help and in the end Even somebody with the credentials that you have and the reputation you have clearly well respect in the community has spent a lifetime working on this stuff Doesn't always get spoon fed this information in school It wasn't like there was the panic attack class that taught you how to do Claire weak stuff and you know There's there was nothing then, you know, there was nothing then really it's better today Um, but even so what what you get in school is not what's going to let you Treat people and and help them everything I know about panic. I learned after I left school I learned it all from my clients So when we when I tell people all the time and all the people I collaborate say all the time when you're looking for professional Look for somebody who specializes in this particular issue and that is a perfect Example of why I think you have dedicated your life to just treating these particular disorders and it shows The the breath of experience that you get and the knowledge from the experience is what leads you to write a book like this so And and look, you know, look into that a little bit if if someone specializes in An anxiety and 10 other things. Well, they don't specialize in anxiety Yeah, I say that all the time. Don't let your therapist or the potential says. Oh, yeah, I do anxiety too like Not really. Yeah, well done. I cannot recommend this book highly enough the panic attacks workbook It is this a second issue second edition. I take it it is. Yes very good So if you are listening to the podcast, I will wrap this up I will give you a link that you can go to where you can find that book amazon all the places i'm guessing Yeah, and it'll be on my website too when it comes out Very good So if you go to the show notes for this episode, which I will tell you about in a minute when we wrap up And I'll put it up on the screen on youtube You'll find link to Dave's website and all of his stuff. Where where can people find you if they they just don't want to listen anymore What's the best place to find you online? Anxietycoach.com that that would be where to find me Very good And I have a fairly extensive website there with lots of self-help materials and Links to facebook and everything else are from there. So anxietycoach.com is my home Yeah, it's a ton of free resources that they should check it out. So thank you very much I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for letting me read the book ahead of time I appreciate that too and yeah, I'm glad to do it and then thanks for having me back Oh, it's a pleasure to sit and talk. You're very welcome. We'll do it again some time All right guys, hang on and I will wrap this up and I'll give you on the links Okay, we are back. I hope you guys enjoyed that interview as much as I enjoyed doing it Dave is a good guy always gracious enough to spend his time here to help us out on the podcast And like I said a bit of a legend in the anxiety community So when I get to talk to people like that to me, it's kind of a special treat So there you go. That is Dave's approach to panic attacks. It sounds very familiar again If you're familiar with the podcast, I think his book the panic attacks workbook is a great resource You guys know that I don't just go willy nilly, you know endorsing books and products and stuff like that I never do that, but I did get to read it and I think it is a great resource So if you're interested in checking it out, you can hit my website at the anxioustruth.com 202 that will have the full show notes on this podcast and I'll make sure to have a link over to Dave's book on amazon If you want to check it out, um, you'll more than welcome to do that So that is it for episode 202. Dave carbonelle panic attacks in the panic attacks workbook. Thanks for coming by You know, it's over because music This is as always after glow by ben drake You can find ben and his music at ben drake music dot com tell him I said hi if you go and check him out And I will ask you as I always do if you are listening to this podcast on itunes or Spotify or someplace that you can leave a review Leave a five star review and write a little I'm sorry That would be a five star rating and a little excellent review if you love the podcast It helps other people find it and that's why we do this to train help as many people as possible If you're watching on youtube Certainly hit the subscribe button and like the video and all that stuff Leave a comment happy to interact with you guys and that is it We will back be back next week as always I'm not a hundred percent sure what we're going to talk about but I will be here and remember as always This is the way Living fast No looking back or sweating on the past You know, you'll never get another chance So go and live your life