 stable but evil Okay, guys, we're gonna go ahead and go live Going live Going for the future is live Everyone's blaming me for the technical difficulties anyways You you're my audience's faith in me is just unimpeachable You guys are awesome. Thank you I never have tech technical difficulties It's always josh You see the thing is that like I can see the discord preview window and like i'm smooth as butter I don't know why why it's uh She got me to be To be so slow for you guys Uh Let's see I don't have anything weird going on with the internet here on my end Um Am I am I good other than you now you sound like you're coming through two sources Coming through two sources. No, I was there just for saying there was an echo. I might just spend my end. I don't know Thought you were telling me I had two penises What would you do with two penises? I don't know one would be out of out of business This conversation went weird fast Because i'm weird Yes Still blaming me. All right. I promise it was not my fault this new controller update. I hate this new controller update Controller update. What is controller controller of what controller of mankind? Uh, no network controller TCP no flag attack drop one packet. What the fuck is this? Dropping packets. That's what's happening Because what you see on discord locally is local As soon as you go online, this is when the packets start dropping like flies Yeah, it turns out the internet works really good when you don't need to use it It worked good for me because I had to download Diablo 4 and it downloaded in 12 hours That's my connection speed. I don't have anything faster. So 12 hours is normal All right gents, I think we're gonna go ahead and get started here So i'm you guys ready to go with your recording software Yes It better because I can't saw anything else So what what are you hopping to next? 10 to uh, I told you man. It's gonna be fedora. Oh, yeah, that's right. You did to tell me that Are you gonna go with regular fedora silver blue? Uh, we're we're gonna get silver blue cool I've already got the I I've already got the diy image generated and everything Cool or correctly called silver leaf And depends on who you're talking to uh, they they they decided on silver blue silver leaf to not make the proposal So it's over blue. Haha dark. This is not a gen two stream Josh Uh, I I turned off the gen two systems So, uh, they're so there are gen two systems that you may or may not see they're on the other side of that door All right You're right. You're right. Darth Vader. This is not a gen two stream. Sadly. I mean, it's it's really disappointing All three of us are running arch. That's true All right, first time ever Not for long Anyways, I'm gonna go ahead and hit record in audacity I'm gonna hit record in obs I'm gonna hit record in ashen idea I hit record in thing It seems to be working tap on your tap on your mic fellas and make sure you're coming through the right Source Yeah, yeah, you're I heard it if I want to make sure audacity here is it? It could it could be well, let's just not do the podcast and instead instill gen two together All right, so Next week, we're doing something a little bit different guys, right? Remember we're doing What's the name of the the distro we're supposed to be playing with for the next week? Uh, the one that I can't run because it won't boot You have to use your laptop Um, I guess what the hell was it called though? It started with a b was it Uh crunch bang wasn't crunch bang. I knew there's a b in there somewhere Crunch bang. What is that? It's the challenge for the next week We're supposed to Paying attention Yeah, I wasn't paying attention. What what what what I have to install it somewhere You're supposed to use it You can use indivium. I don't care if it's a hardware or not um But we're gonna take a look at it and next week The four of us will review it because tyler will be back next week We'll have to one of us should remind tyler of this because this was his challenge of a big book really silly If all three of us used it and he didn't Well, he's too busy playing zero ed You're welcome for the hundred linux command video, uh, the people who watched it really liked it Unfortunately, not very many people liked it or not very many people watched it I watched it I watched it from beginning to end. Yeah, it was a wonderful one I thought I was listening to a robot, but that video flopped hard Um, but that's okay happens I mean, it's it's probably gonna want to doing better than your reminder video I'd have to that one was really bad But yeah, all right. I see 1.9 thousand on each I I expected the reminder one to suck. I didn't expect the 100 the hundred command one to be so bad Mainly because I god, I spent so much time on that video Uh, it doesn't matter. I love I love the fact when I opened it and I saw all the chapters I was like, oh that's gonna be a long video. Steve is back in Lebanon You're back in it in Lebanon. You're an 8-bit again You're both in Lebanon. You should just do it from the same location Uh, I'm calling, uh, dsl internet at this point. Yeah, um, that's okay. We're not professionals. All right, let's go ahead and get started Uh, me then josh and steve Yeah Hey everybody, welcome to the next cast. I'm your host matt And I'm josh Now whoever you want me to be Steve um, well, I would like you to be some kind of maybe like a Brinks truck kind of guy like has all the money. I mean if we're just choosing your identity, you have a whole bunch of bill gates Let's go with bill gates I mean, it's the best software on earth She saw that was a great impression by the way All right, welcome to Linux cast. I'm uh, yeah, I don't know what we're doing. We took a week off I completely forgot how to do a podcast. It's okay. This is um, so We talk about linux on this thing. I think right that's what we're supposed to be doing We're not supposed to be talking about microsoft. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, so I mean, uh, I'm gonna be talking about microsoft We will be talking about microsoft on this actually, but it'll be a different kind of microsoft more friendly microsoft That's not actually anyways We talk about lancy stuff and we've had quite the couple last couple weeks tyler is off again this week He should be back next week where we will be doing something a little bit different We're gonna be taking a look at crunch bang plus plus. I believe is the Um This show we're gonna be looking at we're gonna do a review of it And uh, we'll show some of it on camera because I'll have that all set up So that's what we're planning on doing next week should be really fun. So to make sure you tune in for that but This week we got news boys. We got news But first before we jump into that Let's talk about what we've done this week in open source. So stief. What have you been up to this week or the last couple weeks? Deleting all theme packages from my repository because installing themes from repositories or the a ur is not the right way of Doing it apparently because after testing I realized I was doing it wrong all this time for two years Uh Because if you install anything from a package manager, which cannot and will not ever touch your home directory Uh The theme files will have the wrong permissions thus not applying all the accent colors that they were supposed to apply to your system so I went back to the drawing board and Redid all my writing scripts where they install straight from source Thus applying the infamous libid vita patch As they're installing so that way if you install you're crazy enough like a lunatic They try to install uh libid vita apps on kde. You will have them using whatever theme your system your system is using Same for flatbacks. Everything was Uh Everything is now hunk hunky dory with the exception of kak put sheen which for whatever reasons to apply the libid vita patch They end the kde theme. They run a python script instead of a bash script or flags I don't know why they like to complicate things But when I talked to the developers, they said one thing and that thing was so clear kak put sheen was Tend was was never meant to be used on desktop environment Was created with window managers in mind desktop environments later so I learned a lot of a lot of new things while using also chat gpt Uh, I now know how what flag to use to hide errors from users like package not found the kind of errors using the dev null flag Uh, which I knew nothing about before until I used chat gpt But I learned that as well. So I've been real busy the past weeks I'm surprised that the themes in the normal global themes directory doesn't work like it should Because I mean users don't I talk user shares theme developer A user share doesn't work I talked to the theme developers multiple ones to make sure I didn't only talk to one. I talked to the cat put sheen dev Iver Lara Who is also responsible for Dracula also responsible for uh, sweet And a lot and many other famous themes Uh, there's a python script that uh, you download. It's called libid white, uh patcher That allows you to apply to libid white the apps and he they both and I talked to uh, vinci luchi guy behind leon and mojave whatever mac mojave theme and orcs on other themes and they both explained to me that for uh Since I don't know a few six seven months ago the way themes work, uh, is you have to install them from Source they're not responsible for a u r or Arch packages, but themes you generally don't find them on arch Repositors you find them generally on the a u r They're like we're not responsible for those themes and the way they're applied and I checked the pkg builds Nothing is wrong with the pkg builds. I even sent the pkg build to vinci luchi to check it out It was like the pkg build is correct but for Uh, he was like he explained that Anything that goes into root gets applied to root with root privileges themes expect uh are expected to be using to have The user permissions not root permissions for everything to work correctly. Um, he did he and he specified Some aspects of the theme will work like the general When you go to plasma settings and look and feel and you apply the plasma the plasma theme That will work But there are accent colors in leon for example like the icons in the app menu should be colored And the tray icons are not they're not using the leon icons. They will continue to use the breeze icons so those aspects Of the theme will not work because they are expected to Have user permissions not root permissions So he was like Want to you Him and a lever lara. They were like you want to use you want the theme to work Apply it your home directory as a user with user permissions Not root so The way it is Is that just for gtk or is it for qt as well for qt as well? Like the app menu in in kde You know the app menu with it. It gives you the icons for power log out shutdown, whatever Those are colored in leon green yellow. I mean green orange blue Whatever You apply it from a via package from any from the aur because themes are on the aur not on regular repositories They will not be applied We'll get just plain white icons from breeze because the way it's set up in kde is for everything to fall back breeze because breeze is the essential kde so That's Unfortunate. No, it's that just an art. Is that just an arch thing or is that across linux everything? When I asked him he didn't reply But I guess it's since I'm on arch I cannot speak for others, but I think it's a general thing. It's not an arch thing because But I could be wrong different package managers deal with packages differently Yeah, it's been a long time since I've installed any themes into the user share themes directory Anyways, I always just I've been using the dot thing you go for playing Yeah, you go to pling and you download them and you extract them in the rightful locations on your Yeah, it's just easier to do it without sudo, you know, I mean so yeah, but unfortunately This is unfortunate and I tried to to to make that known with my video and one Random developer who has only three followers on On github attacks me and he was like you're on team my app And he shoves that URL in my face And and tells me you're you're you're stripping our identity from our application Our icons are our our our our identity Like who who pulled your hair? Weird I was actually this close to just stepping in that third and going like you're he's shipping default themes He's just telling his users how to do it Yeah, I'm I'm shipping a default theme like he he mentioned in in his in his dialogue He was like it's up to maintainers not to ship any themes in their distra. I was like, did you look at zero g? I'm shipping liberty dark. I'm not touching anything. I'm okay. I am theming the icons This is where I think this is what's uh tripped them off because I'm using tele icon blue and on zero g but he's like Shouldn't encourage people to theme their system It's like I sent him one to it then I deleted it because I didn't apparently he's not reading his own damn link Yeah, I know links His link says that yeah Uh users are is perfectly fine for users to theme their apps. That's what that link that he he shared says Yeah, well the biggest problem is that He he is talking about identity. Who's robbing him from his identity? No one I'm not using any themes. I'm just telling people if if you are Going to theme your apps. You want to theme gnome apps lib at white the apps. This is how to do it correctly mentioned by the theme developers themselves. I'm not bringing this from uh You should either my response was if you wanted to develop applications where users had no freedom You could go code for windows I I I was going to say I tooted at him apple I told him apple question mark like I thought it was apple talking to me I was like apple and then I deleted that toot because I knew that this will ignite the conversation even further Didn't stop him to keep tooting at me tooting at me and at the end I sent him a toot that called him to block me I was like good ridden Interesting. All right, josh. What are you been up to? Arch boy, I installed arch Linux and I and you know, this was this was up until About several hours ago the most stable arch experience. I've had in the past three years and then it just all fell apart on me He he sent the message in discord. I was so happy. I posted it in the discord like hey arch Linux is actually working Yeah, yeah, he's screaming. He's screamed at us there, man He was very excited. I was so I was so excited, you know, like it was actually working for me It was beautiful Like, uh, you know pacman was doing everything it was supposed to I was getting the parallel downloads going And then she's like, yeah, you know what? I'm just not going to use the parallel downloads and like And you know just stick to one download at a time because you know, we want pacman to actually work reliably for us And uh, you know, like it was working To find and now today I'm I'm once again having issues with arch Linux For example, apparently in my camera feed, even though I'm not 100 percent certain It's the system. It might just be my internet connection Uh pacman, uh refuses to install any application So if I'm going to be installing packages, I had to get cloned a package to build and build it myself Oh, wow Before the chat gets any Before the chat gets to anything what's going on is that when pacman tries to communicate with a mirror Through through either a direct ip address or through a dns entry if it will 404 against me However, I'm still capable of pinging that same address on on the mirror I have already wiped and cleaned the database. I've generated a new mirror list Are you using a vpn josh? No There is no vpn running on the system right now Huh something is blocking your connection. I don't think it's arch Makes you wonder if they've gotten your ip and just like I don't want this guy to use arch from we're blocking his ip address Well, then I should well, then I shouldn't be able to be able to ping it. No, that's the reason why I was That's why I was thinking it was would be it might be a vpn problem because it A lot of mirrors or whatever Have blocked certain vpn vpn ip addresses for some reason. I think that I think that's why that's why Gave it to good old ping test because you know, if I'm not able to ping the mirror, then yeah, then it It would it would be an issue it would be a connection issue But it's not a connection related issue because ping works over http. So it is pac-man Wait, I think I know what what the what the issue is because I uh, recently there was an update for arch iso to 71 Person 71 and since I'm a distro maintainer. I dig around in that in the relying folder Yeah, so I I even Rebuilt pac-man from source Latest greatest and static Not about pac-man it's uh in mod in I'll I'll tell you in a sec. Uh Really interesting what they did, uh flick iso zero g aero deffers Centrelating television right here right guys It's called resolved resolved.com.d in your etsy folder system d Added something called arch iso.com In there it has uh, something new called resolve multicast dns enable You think that's I don't have I don't have a resolve.com.d folder I don't have that here's the question I have and I don't know the answer this question But linux keeps logs is like a mofo does pac-man keep its own logs somewhere Uh, I've got it compared to use the system logs So so I went so I go through looking through both journal cto and the system log And you know pac-man is just doing that normal normal thing where it's just like hey I try to connect these mirrors, but I'm getting for these 404 errors Like yeah, that's that's great and useful Yeah, pac-man pac-man is known not to be very verbose on the errors Weird why? I don't rely on it Well for me personally guys I have been messing around with debian because I started a long-term review this this past week And I'm doing it a little bit different because I have done a long-term review of debian before I know that confused a lot of people But what I'm doing it doing this time is I'm I'm looking at different ways you can use debian because before I focused solely on stable So this time I'm going to be checking out back ports I'm going to check out testing and stuff like that and and on multiple different systems and how it works and stuff like that And this should be entertaining I will say this that you don't want to run it. Do you still have time to test crunch bang? Or it is debian I'll I'll I'll be giving it a try. I don't mind Um, like I said, I don't mind if quench pain is in a vm. It doesn't have to be on hardware I probably probably will install it on hard on hardware, but we'll see. I mean my heart my laptop, but um anyways I my only takeaway from debian so far Is that I cannot get qtel to install All right, that's been my biggest disappointment is I cannot get qtel to install so they have Uh pip blocked which apparently that's a that's a new thing that a lot of people are doing is blocking pip josh for whatever reason um Because they're switching to pip x so that everything's in a virtual pip python environment or whatever Um, which is fine, but qtel the main reason why uh debian made that change is because people would uh sit there and tell Tell pip to install using sudo which which overrides the uh The d package system database on the locally installed packages, which leads to breaking debian. That's not a new problem at all I mean pip has been on for a very it's not a new problem whatsoever It's just that because of the rise of pip x that means that debian now can disable pip so they did Well, I re-enabled the damn thing and it's still to work Um, because I know how to use pip believe it or not. I don't I know you're not supposed to use it with sudo Um, and it actually tells you not to use it with sudo unless it explicitly needs it Um, like there's a warning inside of pip that has told you for years not to use it Who reads the the terminal outputs? Who reads them? I do but I'm a nerd Um, but anyways pip x won't work either, but I'm very I'm so close to getting pip x to work for qtel But there's two dependencies that I cannot find packages for on debian I'm pretty sure they exist. They just have different names. So I'm still searching for those Um, one of them is one of them is a font the other one Fuck if I know Um, also also having some problems with the way one of the dependencies was compiled Uh, it didn't have the right flags or something. I don't know. Um, but it's That's been my biggest disappointment on on debian as I haven't been able to get qtel to install Because that's my that's my window manager. It's the one that I want to use I did give up for a little while and it's like I'm so sick of bashing my head against the wall And just installed bspwm because that Bspwm is actually in the debian repositories. I threes in the debian repositories I think xmonad is in the debian repositories, but qtel is not um Apparently qtel was in the debian repositories, but they stopped maintaining it so that it so it was dropped out or something I don't know that was many well iterations ago qtel uh With with the python 3 transition the the version of qtel that was still in the debian repositories was still written Written against python 2 well then qtel updates so often It's just It's really hard it would be really hard to you know keep that up to date on debian where things It right into the same exact issue that qtel on fedora right now is Happening where like the default configuration file that debian wants to ship with qtel is incompatible with version of qtel that they were shipping So their solution was rather than you know update and fix this configuration file And uh, you know spend some time on it even though, you know, there's a default configuration file you can pull from the From upstream sources they Decided you know what we'll just remove the package because nobody's willing to maintain this anyway Yeah, well, I don't think that the qtel that's used debian and they don't compile They don't put qtel in any of the repositories. It's maintained maintained by other people for arches maintained by other people for fedora um, so all the only thing that they maintain is the one that comes through pip which of course Everyone uh, right core blocked pip too. So it's not the it's not the only Distro that's blocking pip. Um, so apparently that's the qtel Is on the a u r or the mainline? I think it's an extra Might be in a u r. I don't know because I I built it from pip on arch. So I just always use it from pip because that's usually the most of the date one because it comes straight from the guys, right so One of the packages that I host on my repository is because of you because of your videos Is pie wall Pie wall is fantastic. It's so good I wish it was so maintained I really wish I keep it there. I'm gonna keep it there That's because I want to control it if it disappears from the u r for whatever reason. Yeah still there until it dies Well, there's a fork of it called pie wall 16. I haven't tried it yet. I do not know if they're interchangeable I'm hoping that they are Because it's basically the same thing but instead of instead of eight colors are used to 16 colors So I'm gonna give that a try wall 16 colors. Yeah, it's called. I will say I will 16. Yep Um, well 16 dash colors I haven't like I said, I haven't tried because I don't know if it's interchangeable yet or not because I don't want to Have to go through and redo all of my configurations again But I don't know anyways That's it for that that section. We're gonna go ahead and move on to the news So every week we choose two different news items. Uh, some of these are from last week Some of them are new but they are still relevant and fun to talk about. So, uh, josh, why don't you go first? Well, uh, I heard that immutable distros were the we're in the new hotness to the point where even ubuntu Is willing to make one specifically for starting with the lts release coming up next year Uh, this is immutable ubuntu I don't think they said mention anything about like uh using os tree or anything like that But of course it is going to evolve snaps because it's ubuntu I don't think you sent me the right link josh Uh, if you repull the notes in you'll have the right link. I'm literally got the link. I got the link from The notes on get lab refresh the page because I literally updated it right before you join us You're gonna stop doing that that stuff stop that. Oh, you can you fix the mark down? Thank you for doing that Yep There we go. Cool. All right, keep going But yeah, uh, this is starting with ubuntu 24 04 which is the lts release which probably means that the That this thing should work but it's based off of ubuntu core Which is not something that I've looked into a whole lot, but it's basically like uh ubuntu's variant of like uh floris core os uh I don't like I said, I don't know if it's using os tree But it it's cool that you know, it's That you know, they're giving it a try The hopefully hopefully this encourages them to fix some of the some of the issues that people have with snaps Probably not um everybody so the thing about the So the the big uproar with snaps when the firefox thing Transitioned over to being a snap They fixed the firefox one But they didn't fix it like system-wide like I'm I'm assuming that that's because the Compression that they use needed to have all the apps be rebuilt in that compression format In order to actually work With the new speed or whatever and they just Decided that they weren't going to do it that or just maybe it was just for the new ones They decided to allow the new compression or whatever, but Uh firefox got faster, but snaps is still slow as hell The big change with firefox that they made was that the very first time that you that you would launch the firefox snap It would be slow, but but that's just because it was indexing the uh, Locals in the system because that's actually what was killing the uh load time was because firefox was loading Was loading up support for every single locale that Was enabled on the system which was basically everything because it's a bunch of Well now is now it's just indexing whatever whatever the user's Locale variable is which for you and me matt would be us and uh for steve I I think uh, you would use like, uh Whatever locale Okay, okay, but but yeah, that's what that's what it would load from there Which is what which uh is why the firefox app was so much quicker after the very first initial launch Well, it was always faster at the after the initial launch that was I'm talking about post like system reboots and everything too, but suppose But oh, yeah, it's this way what always was but the Supposedly I had guys I haven't tried the firefox snap since their original time But they apparently have made that initial launch even faster than it was still slow But not at 45 to a minute long. Yeah, what I what I find strange what I find strange also is that they're going They're enabling Cups as a snap. Yeah, I saw that Yeah, that's exactly what you want as you're printing to be even slower than it is now So, let's go back to this here's I don't know much at all about ubuntu. Was ubuntu core the Um one that they were using for iot devices. Was that ubuntu core? Was that something? Yeah, that's pretty much what it was Yeah, it's it's the thing for the iot devices Yeah, uh I don't think you'll be able to install flat pack on this one. So you might just have to live with the snaps Yeah, especially that it's immutable and speaking of immutable three days ago. I had an update to my steam deck which killed everything as usual Uh, so that prompted my lazy ass Write finally write a script that I double click or running console or whatever And it will redo everything every time. That's the reason why I still haven't got under the desktop version of steam os Like I still haven't even got there If you value your sanity I did I have been actually using the steam deck. I played skyrim on it for half an hour yesterday. It was fun Um, but I'm just using it as a game console. I don't even get into the next parts of it. Um But this romain dener I have to You don't have to rise our steam deck Have to rise my steam deck The immutable ubuntu thing I'm I'm conflicted about it. Like I knew eventually that we're going to do it But I think it's a I think before we like pass any judgments on this We actually do have to have to see what they come up with Well, I'm not I'm not gonna judge him. I'm just gonna mostly say I don't I wouldn't use it because of snaps but also I'm not the target of an ubuntu of anything about it because I'm not an ubuntu user So I think that people who who look at silver blue and think oh silver blue is really cool, but I wish it was a ubuntu This might be for them. I don't know if those people exist or not, but I'm sure there's probably one or two um, you By guys, do you do you agree that immutable uh distros are for Are a good choice for beginner users Yeah I think they will be in the future I think as as they are I think as they are right now, there's more documentation for regular linux than there is for immutable distros so I think that eventually they'll change but as of right now, I think that regular linux is probably immutable distros Immutable distros are what and the steam deck Well, the steam deck being separate But immutable distros are what are helping flatback grow even more Well, that's that's true. The reason the reason why I came up with my answer is because just just think about it If if you guys let's just say this ubuntu thing was already a thing and somebody was using it And they ran into a problem. They're going to google how to fix that problem that that problem is going to have a solution Yeah, they're not gonna google ubuntu core. They're gonna they're gonna google ubuntu They even know that they're running ubuntu. Yeah, and they're gonna get a response that was written 10 years ago to fix that problem But and they may remember they may they may very well get that problem fixed on the immutable version of ubuntu But the next time, you know, it comes through, you know, it's going to wipe out the fix So, um, I think then tell the internet catches up on terms of general documentation For that particular version of ubuntu And same thing with silver blue and kina white and all the rest Regular good on your mat. You good on your mat. You're you took a step back and you're looking you're looking at it from the broader perspective, that's A good way of looking at that that said for like the person a that Still needs to be able to like drop in and modify like a system shell or anything like that uh the The idea behind like these immutable distros is that you shouldn't ever have to do that If you have if you ever actually have to do that you need to be filing a bug report rather than fixing it Well, or you need to create your own iso beforehand, right? Yeah, or you can create your your own iso, which actually I found out for silver blue is actually incredibly easy Incredibly easy Did you use new blue or did you use the one from fedora itself? Uh, you it doesn't matter you can use either you know, I know I'm or you want from I know you can use both of them That's why I asked you which one you use I'm using the u blue one because you know it comes with rpm fusion enabled out of the box as well So as well as all the proper u dev roles that way I don't have to write to myself So they have a whole bunch of ones for nvidia too the u blue guy. So Um in the fedora one ignores Fedora completely as they you normally do so, yeah, but uh uh I'm I'm going to be digging through like ubuntu core os and just just see like what I can go into because Too cool. This I think that this project is going to be based off of ubuntu core os I think they mentioned they mentioned in the article. Yeah, uh, yeah I didn't really read it. I just saw the headline and then I just gave it a very quick skim So before we move on here's my next question. So fedora has silver blue Uh, open susa has micro os ubuntu is going to have whatever they call this thing um And I Maybe I'm making this up in my head, but I feel like I heard debbie and talk about it I don't think they have any plans yet, but they've talked about it Um, so the the real question I have is when are we going to hear about an arch bit like an actual arch sponsored immutable um District, you know, that isn't never that is not the steam os that is not the steam os. Yeah, it's not uh, it's not a derivative It it's it's not going to happen Because of the weight because of the arch philosophy brilliant arch is just Is just build the package and throw it out to user and let the user figure it out themselves That is the arch philosophy if you're that is that is a very brutal summarization of what it says in that document But that's basically what it says. I wonder with the with the Arch install script if there would be a way for them to add like an immutable option You know what I mean? Like well here You can actually do that. Uh, there are containers that you can that you can that uh There is an arch linux docker image that you can also use on podman And that's literally how silver blue operates is that it's basic that is that your system is is just a container All the only thing that you need to set is like whatever needs to be set as to be like mutable or a variable in a volume And that would be like the user home directory. Yeah It'd be so yeah, you can't theoretically deal with arch You can do that with arch right now It'd be cool if it could like automate it as part of that script or something. Anyways, uh, steve your first link My first link is going to i'm going to start light because the the one after that is a longer discussion News that the qt 5.15 is lts is the end of life Was and it got on end of life on may 26, 26 2023 So, uh, they're they're open they're opening the door the way or paving the way for qt 6 Oh, yeah, they set uh the qt 5.15 as end of life Who so everyone moves on to qt 6? Qt 6 is coming at the end of the year apparently Uh with plasma six On that Yeah um, did you So what qt does 5.27 use is at 516 517 no 515.9 So they ended the end of life a qt that's still in use by everybody uh, 5 5.15 is the is the commercial commercial All right. I forgot qt did that Right. Okay. Yeah qt does lts releases and uh the the commercial versions of qt are the ones that uh raise all the issues with You know the free software project and all that Yeah, those are the ones that reached the end of life not the qt used by plasma but Since plasmas anyway moving to qt 6 might as well start ending life qt 5.15 isn't 5.27 an lts release Of plasma 27 uh plasma is but that that doesn't mean that's qt version is No, plasma is not. It's not. Well, so we'll 5 that 20 Maybe i'm just being an idiot. I'm probably never mind. I'm just being an idiot Let's move on to the next one. Uh, so this link here is yes It was from last week, but we should probably still talk about it even though it has been updated So for those of you like five people use the xfs file system on um I'm gonna get so much hate mail for that because I know there's more than five people that use x See if you use xfs, don't you? Yeah It's the default on zero linux Lame butter fs is where it's at anyways for the five people plus steve who use xfs if There was an announcement last week that they should stay away from linux version 6.3 And because they've had multiple reports I can explain even more because i'm the xfs profession That's good because I don't It feels like you don't want to talk about it really. I really don't I should have changed the link, but it's okay Anyways, they've had multiple reports of metadata corruption issues on the xfs xfs file system And but it has been fixed so josh sent a link It's in the show notes as well that they have pushed out 6.3 Five which is apparently a one-line fix To fix the problem reverted they reverted a commit. That's all they did But the the this affected server Server users because in the server space xfs is still still widely used So that affected them more than it affected users that didn't stop users also reporting Sometimes I have a hard time believing some users because some users just want to jump on the bandwagon and say I'm having the issue when they're not really Because I use xfs and I did not suffer a single issue the whole time this was going on So but the because a lot of because the way you're using your system affects if you're affected by this bug or not For example, htpcs they index everything anything that gets indexed Like that has metadata like pictures movies and stuff like that. I don't have pictures I don't have anything on the system. I didn't feel anything but on my htpc Since I'm running manjaro on it. They didn't really update until 6.3.5 came but I would have suffered on that system because there's a lot of indexing Wait, wait, hold hold on a second. I was just vaguely listening while I was reading this Did you see you you have manjaro on your htpc? Did I hear that for the past I had that that is what he said Had it on that system for three for the past three years this year it Reaches third year no issues. I'm a distro maintainer. I know how to run it to run a system. So You know how to roll back your system clock That that that was a dig right at you josh. I'm just saying also Root but the second of all are you are and this I'm wrong after all these years you are the the Zero linux maintainer, but you're using manjaro one. Isn't that some kind of conflict of interest? Let me let me explain it quite simply this had manjaro way before zero linux was born and you just haven't changed it. Okay Is I didn't want to change it because it was working and the only Time I turned this on like I just turned it on before the show because my dad is watching blacklist that pc Was watching the matrix That's no that's just a backdrop all right, well anyways For like the higher or for like the lower level overview as to what this xfs issue is It's it's a metadata bug that that comes from the journal And uh, basically the you wouldn't encounter the issue until xfs would actually go in and re-scrub the journal Which you know is what a journaling file system is supposed to do Uh, ideally it does that on xfs by default assuming that nobody At no distribution tinkers with it or anything like that XFS will re-scrub the journal at least once every two weeks So it's entirely possible that you might have been running the 6.3 kernel I just never ran into it because uh, how long has like 6.3.4 actually been out now and available for you Not very long at all. So it's it's entirely possible that the that the system just didn't scrub Well, since say 6.3 to 6.3.5 there was 11 or 12 days Yep, what so let's bypass the news because honestly that now that it's fixed and I'm happy it's fixed I don't care anymore steve Explain to me the benefits of xfs over butterfests. I'm just curious because I don't know I don't I literally know nothing about xfs. So explain it to me in dummy dummy terms Okay, you want to know, uh, I'm going to be very honest. There's only one I'm going to spell this right away No, oh, I don't know. We'll see we'll see No, uh with the recent updates of butterfests, maybe but When I started using butterfests, it was better to use xfs and I've been using it ever since So, so what's good about what's good about xfs? What what does it do? Only one thing only one thing that matters to me I don't care about anything else. Uh, it's uh, like today Had to copy diablo 4 from an ssd to a mechanical drive They're both xfs I format everything in xfs uh Oh, I transferred 90 gigs four minutes Um, usually when I do that on a ext4 Example, it would take uh anywhere between 20 to 40 minutes because of the mechanical drive and overhead and I would see My cpu pegged 70 to 80 percent Uh When I moved to xfs My cpu is barely touched It's and it's quick and smooth like butter So it's the only reason I use xfs. So speed only reason Josh speed and stability technical reasons why You had something to say about xfs. What would you okay? Okay, so the reason why xfs is so much better at that The long version. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes, and it's it's a nature of how xfs treats data compared to ext4 Apparently steve steve is not man enough to use butter fs But anyways, so when you're when you're writing a file to xfs You're just writing the file when you're writing the file to ext4 You're actually not writing the file to the file system initially. You're writing into what's called an inode And uh, that inode will then split everything up into metadata chunks Then we'll write to the file system. That's why ext4 has a much much heavier write overhead compared to a read overhead X xfs by that nature because of xfs's commercial enterprise Deployments deployments because you know, it is the default file system of red hat Uh, it it will not they developed it so that it will just Write the data straight to the file system noble no noble crime needed in between so because xfs Because xfs was initially intended The the One true file system that you use for your databases before you ever anybody you can see of anything like copyright Okay, so the it doesn't have any special Like snapshot or anything like that. It's just meant for speed Nope Okay, it is pure it is purely fast. It's not as fast as like f2 fs. It's not that fast, but uh it But it is it's it's that file system that's been around for like 30 plus years It has always been fast is well it will it was originally and it was originally owned By silicon graphics, right? Yeah, it was served by silicon graphics So it'd be good for it'd be good if you had like two nases or whatever they had to constantly transfer Uh data between the two of them, but you weren't really worried about you know, like uh snapshots or anything like that Because I was not not not not your nas not your nas. I'll talk about like your storage area network I'm talking about like your big boy's server. You're gonna send your okay sands. Okay You might you might as well call my htpc big boys server because it's got like over a hundred terabytes of movies and tv shows Okay, but yeah, it's it's it's fast and it's not like f2 fs f2 fs Needs a little bit of configuration and stuff to do From what I from the limited knowledge that I have around it where xfs is just It just works. Yeah, I've been using butter fs on my systems and then e xc4 my external hard drive I'm not saying that butter fs is bad. I I like butter fs and the fact that It supports snapshotting The only caveat I have the only thing that angers me with butter fs, which is Apparently coming it's going to be fixed in a future release of butter fs whenever that comes Is that when it may it does snap take snapshots? When it takes snapshots it puts them on the same drive as the system It doesn't give you the option to take snapshots and put them on a separate drive You can you can you can change that you you can change it You just have to do it manually Well from all the research I did it says The snapshots on the same drive cannot be done It just the the dot snapshots directory or whatever can be put At least as far as I know wherever you want it to be you just have to Because the the ways butter fs from from you gotta remember most of the time I just automate it so It's done the way the distro maintainer, you know sets it up. Yeah, but It's mounted via Fs tab so you can mount it just like you would You know any drive at all. It's just yeah, you put it in fs tab and that's apparently The reason they said maybe you can't because of some kind of permissions error or something like that My my guess is that the limitation there would be that when you try to roll back the permissions would be different because the permissions on the Josh would probably know better than I would But the permission the permissions on the external drive if you were to put your snapshots on another drive It would be different. Maybe that's the reason why they say that but I'm not sure what the technical limitations. Okay, uh, What am I supposed to answer? Oh, yeah, my neighbor was just it's just sort of raining outside. My neighbor was not going to door telling me that my windows were down Oh Very nice neighbor. I I would have said I would just point it and laugh so Um, no, we were just we were just discussing the the butterfest putting the snapshots directory on another drive And apparently you can't do that. I thought you could No, no, you can yeah, I thought I thought you could it's because it's just mounted via Um fs tab. So it's just an fs tab entry and it can go I mean Even when you call better fs snapshot, you can just you can just direct the outputs Output of the snapshot wherever you want just like you would a normal file. Yeah, but but There was a announcement Somewhere like a month or two ago that butterfest is going to receive an update where uh, you you will be able to uh set A snapshot I think that more has I think that has more to do with with defaults because by default it is on the same drive like It defaults to the same drive and most of the butterfee butterfest utilities like a time shift snapper and all that They will default to the same drive as well. They all look for it in the same place So yeah, because ideally that's what you should be doing through file system snapshots to begin with anyway And then if you need to send the snapshot Snapshot off to a separate separate driver or separate system. You're just using butterfest send and receive. Yeah No, because The reason I said it's a it's a thing I don't like about butter fs is because The thought in my head is because I suffered this multiple times What if the the actual system drive I Will take the system the snapshots and everything with it Well, if the system try if the system drive dies, you have way more problems Then yeah, but if you had them on a on a separate drive, you'll be you'll be safe Steve is called hardware. That's going to happen. Anyway, well, okay So here's the misconception a lot of people have I don't know if this is where you're Accounting a problem Steve is that butterfest snapshots are not a backup of anything other than a certain portion of the system files Okay, it's not backing up your personal data at all That's still your responsibility. And if you are doing a proper backup solution, you could Back up your dot snapshots directory just like you would all of your other personal files and have those things there So it's it's not a time shift. Basically use timeshift. Well, it's it's it's not a total backup solution That's why anybody It it can be confusing because you hear people talk about how butterfest enables you to do snapshots and you just assume That it's kind of like zfs snapshots, but they're not the same thing It it's it's it can be confusing, but um, I like butterfest just because it's kind of like a It's an arch Linux base. It's it's an arch Linux fail safe If you're on arch and you make a mistake in you know configuration file or there's an update or something like that Chances are your butterfest No argument. No argument's there. It's just for me my preference is What I do is every every time I want to Store my system or do a fresh install or whatever Take a full backup. Uh, I mean home directory backup because the system doesn't matter Most times doesn't matter. I'm just such a happy little nerd right now. We're talking about file systems Sorry And none of us actually know how they actually work. Nobody knows how it works. It's fine. It doesn't matter if we don't know how to work It's it's great I backup with time shift on a separate drive. I have a drive that Is if I tell you how old that drive is you're gonna kill me That is that the only drive you're backing up to Don't have I don't have money to buy more drives But That drive is 12 years old It's a mechanical drive and it's a 500 gig SATA drive mechanical drives 5400 rpm very old but it's reliable and It's I've been backing up. I back I create a backup on that drive restore my Install my system restore and the best part of it is I love flat packs because once it's restored and you have your application installed like BS I just open OBS. I'm back up and running like I never left Okay, so everybody just a pro tip if you use flat packs make sure every once in a while you go through your dot var Uh directory and delete things that you no longer use because that should can take up a lot of space Um, well, you can do flat pack. Uh remove dash dash unused Oh, yeah, I just learned something new. I did it manually. Um Cool dash dash unused. I use flat packs. I live by flat packs. Um, I'm talking to you on a flat pack I actually have been using fairly few flat packs now that I'm back on arch But anyways, let's go ahead and move on to the contact information. Otherwise, we're gonna stalling a ur packages again. Yeah, I mean, uh We better move on to the to the contact information before I start talking about my adventures in raid zero Well, always we're gonna say you're nerd out about file systems for the next two hours and Trust me. We could um, it'd be great And anyway, because we didn't even get we didn't even talk about zfs or any of that stuff It could it could get on for a while. Anyways, um, I'm not gonna talk about Zfs in any positive light until it's natively inside mcconnell upstream. Yeah, well We could also talk about many other file systems and we could talk about Uh, we could just nerd out for a while But anyways, if you want to get contact with us, if you'd like to nerd out about literally anything You can get in contact with us. We were happy to hear from you Uh, the linuxcast.org is probably the best place where you can find all of our stuff You'll there you'll find previous episodes all the way back to season one All the way back to episode four. I believe the first three are Uh, not there. Uh, I do have them but uh, they're Those are for re-release later Like like disney used to do with like bambi or something We're holding them ransom They're in the vault or something. I don't know. Uh, anyways, you can go to the linuxcast.org to find previous episodes along with Blog posts and stuff like that. Uh, you can follow us on mastedon at the linuxcast. You can follow Steve he's on youtube at youtube.com slash at zero linux along with all sorts of other places uh, josh is at Tenly j.com slash stalker Which is where you'll find all of his contact information. You can email us at email at the linuxcast.org And you can support some patreon at patreon.com slash linuxcast and find and you can Subscribe to the youtube channel at youtube.com slash linuxcast and uh You can find all of this stuff at the linuxcast.org slash contact did all of that From memory. So I hopefully didn't miss anything. I think I did it good. And do you see this? That's gnomed with butterfet I want to boot to gnomed. I just put that in my system boot to gnomed with butterfet and enjoy a good stable life You know what I don't think I like butter Yes, all right. Anyways, that's the contact information. Let's go ahead and move on to the new the rest of the news So steve your second Uh link here On my second uh, well, okay, uh, no problem Fedora onyx Become an official fedora linux immutable variant I'm pretty sure he switched from French french french To to just a french accent there. So that's French Well, uh This is a very good post because every week he does this to us Well, it's suffice it to say that there's a new immutable version of fedora that's running budgie desktop environment Uh, I love this because budgie has been receiving a lot of lifting Board and it's been moving on to positively and And I want this desktop environment to succeed because it makes gnomed usable Well, thank me based on known for long though. Yeah, well We're moving on to whatever We'll we'll see when they get to the ice They say ice. They say No, they're moving to EFL right now, right? They changed it from they looked at ice and decided with the the EFL libraries, right? Changed their minds the way I changed my trousers. Yeah That's that's my point Well, anyway, it's it's a great idea minus the immutable part but I love the idea of Of budgie on fedora because I like fedora. I Anybody asked me if I weren't running arch. What would I be running? I would say fedora and a heartbeat If Once they fix their slow stuff, which they're working on because you're teaching the the old System dnf system. Yeah dnf 5 is coming very soon. A lot of people are actually using it already. There's a way you can Use it now. So yeah, if you're on fedora 38 just a pseudo dnf installed dnf 5 Um, or if you're using rawhide, you can use it. Um, I think out of the box. Yeah All right, uh Of late fedora has been receiving a lot of new spins Well, a lot of mutable spins. Yeah mutable spins. Yeah, it's it's intriguing It's largely off the back of it's largely off the back of the ublue team We're uh, there are ones that are making the spins then fedora's eventually going like hey You want to make you want to make an official one for us since you already since you already put in all the work for us Sure, why not? Didn't brody interview one of the ublue developers george casper. Yeah Yeah, the lead developer behind a ublue project Was an interesting episode But anyway, sorry, I'm not plugging and just I just remembered it off the top of my head I don't trust budgie at all But I will tell you this that the the guy behind budgie. He's a great salesman because he gets it everywhere like Like he's managed to get budgie everywhere, which is impressive. Yeah, uh, josh Trouble is actually one of my favorite open source developers You mean you haven't pissed him off so much that he's blocked you is what you're saying He he hasn't blocked me before but he unblocked me That's great No, but Suffice it to say that To me personally if I were to use agnome and enjoy it The way I like to enjoy stuff You know customization nerd But It's really even now it's not gnom Okay, whatever. I mean it Looks like gnom because they use gtk applications, but it's not it's like it's it's the same settings app just reorganized It's the same. It's the same setting and now they used they used to have settings in two different places But that was that's been they still do no do they I hope the raven the raven menu still has its own settings thing Or what are they whatever they call it? The settings panel Yeah, I I just like I just like nothing wrong with liking. I'm just saying it's not gnom. I'm very You're gonna be very disappointed eventually whatever they move to uh, whatever they move to uh They're doing a good job. Uh, well g is Is is is it has a future has a bright future I see but it's a very slow one Yeah, very very slow so Correct me if i'm wrong, so they're you they're moving to efl. What the popo s guys with their new cosmic desktop They're using are they using ice? Is it was that their plan? Uh, the popo s guys are ones using ice. Okay. Yeah, that's I always get those to confuse for a little because I always I know that they it was around the same time that they Announced those two things. So you know what what what pisses me off most about popo s That it's the fact they're not sharing how they're doing their nvidia black voodoo magic So we can all figure out a way to fix it uh So the the main re they've explained this before and it's because system 76 has this rather unique relationship As the destroy maintainers compared to like everybody else where you know system 76 actually sells hardware And uh, they can work with nvidia on like those proprietary drivers Which gives them that advantage that the nobody that nobody else has but you can You can grab the dkms models and get Get like an image of that black magic You could also just abandon arch and make a fork of popo s Uh, oh, yeah, uh, no, but the the the issue is uh, uh recently I don't know where they started popping off from from but Some users of zero onex or arch in general because it's an arch thing Some users desktop and laptop After installing the nvidia drivers be a tkg or vanilla They get stuck on new vote. They can't switch from new vote to the proprietary driver And I do not understand where that issue is coming from. I hope 535 drivers solve the issue in early Just blacklist the new vote uh kernel module Yeah, but the uh, usually it never happened just use gen 2 Use flags solve everything Yep, they really do Gen 2 will literally solve this issue for you. All you have to do is just uh, not is just tell it minus nvidia. Yep Yeah, if you if you want to play a game you can't minus nvidia Sure, you can Who needs frame rates? You know, you know minus nvidia from your from your desktop and replace it with a with a with a beautiful red card Yes, that's exactly what you should do. All right. Josh doesn't even have to be a red card Wait until we get that blue card here here in about a year or two. Nobody Intel is going to ruin everything as they usually do. All right, and josh your second link Uh, so I said that we were going to be talking about microsoft. Uh, microsoft obviously loves linux They they went out and they finally they finally acknowledged and released it. You can download this it is azure linux Have you this is not David? Azure Have you downloaded it? Yes I'm honestly a little surprised that you're not trying to do the podcast from it Well, you see, uh, I I decided I was going to rebuild the server act This morning and uh, you know, I wasn't about to like try to hop up I was actually just about to do nomo us again to be honest with you Oh, that was an episode I got numb All right I was no mo s works What desktop environment does it use or is it just dty? Uh This is there is no desktop environment In fact, the xorg is not even packaged on uh, as azure linux because azure linux is specifically not a fork of fedora And uh, if you read this dev class here, uh, they might mention something about embrace extend extinguishing how they didn't Want to uh come come too close to that and uh, that's why they didn't fork fork fedora because they are totally not embracing or extending The goal of extinguishing here swear Okay, okay, but what what what what it's their own base. They're using what base are they using or did they actually This is actually basically linux from scratch that just happens to feature rpm I'm not surprised I didn't do what j with google did with cromo s just use gen 2 I'm not i mean i'm i'm i'm serious i'm surprised that they didn't Because i mean gen 2 gives you so much control It's microsoft come on. They don't want Encourage anything. They want to i mean no no no no no no i didn't i didn't mean it gives the users more control Have you ever used cromo s? I Guarantee you that they that they didn't want to do gen 2 As you know, apparently gen 2 is hard and complicated LFS is easier like LFS you just read the book you copy paste commands and it works The the only reason why the only times that LFS is difficult is when you accidentally copy copy paste command Twice and then you have to go back and figure what you did wrong Okay, that's how you're coming from an experienced person Okay, I wonder why they specifically mention It feels weird that they specifically mentioned fedora like It's like they thought about forking fedora. Okay There's a reason for this because cbl mariner actually was pulling downstream from fedora A lot of enterprise linux is downstream fedora. It's it's uh, our the reason why they mentioned it was because it's an rpm based distro Okay, so they're using the package Packaging system. Yeah, they they are using the red hat package manager Which which version five or the old one? Uh Probably it's probably version forward on something. I I don't even I don't even think you have dnf I think you just have to use rpm directly I don't okay So there is no there this is not a yummy package manager No rpm is the one that bit They were they're using yeah That said, uh, this is basically just just enough operating systems run kubernetes Which basically is just containers. It's a it's just a container first distribution. Uh, it is based off of uh it is Built using rpm's uh over an os tree container and uh, that's basically it basically if you've used Uh, silver blue, uh, this is this is Silver blue but not silver blue without all the fluff on top of it Yep pretty much Okay, good thing to see Microsoft doing something in the linux world challenge Build this thing up so you can actually use it Uh, it's probably not going to happen. I know I I was mostly that was mostly tongue-in-cheek I mean, I could probably make it work It'll just take me a very long time because uh, when was the last time I've actually had to manually compile xorg or any kind of x application It's been it's been about 10 years I'm surprised you haven't tried to do a complete It doesn't matter I wonder okay, so here's the real question is why they decided to release it Because it doesn't seem like uh like because amazon has forked a whole bunch of open source projects to make their own And never released anything back into the community um Microsoft too has has taken in open source projects in the past and never released anything back So I wonder why this time they decided to release Something to the public it feels it feels Not microsofty Then it uh because microsoft loves linux bullshit Like no they if they loved linux they wouldn't be still Prouding out windows every time It is honestly probably the easiest way to just just to claim to be gpl compliance is just like hey Yeah, that's that's correct It's also given the fact that they own github. Maybe they're looking for some Use community contribution or something. I don't know it wouldn't surprise me if they're looking for free labor Um, but would pretty much but but then of course like nvidia open source their blobs and stuff like that and then didn't They weren't actually using any of the get features to taking Commits, so maybe they'll do the same maybe microsoft will do the same thing on this and just have it there and never It'll just be a repository that sits there forever with nothing On it or something that's what i'm thinking exactly because hey What the hell will show the users that we're doing something but not actually do anything Yeah, um, also they had they have another linux Distro that's for their iot stuff is was it like is that called like globes os or something What the hell was that called? Because that was something else it was it was it was for their iot stuff I don't think I don't think there's too the only other the only other linux distribution that I know that microsoft has done Anything with was cbl mariner, which was basically just like a Was like early alpha that's what it was So they're the same thing Yeah, they're the same thing cbl mariner was basically just like the alpha version of this And the only other non linux linux distro that's being used by someone that's not in the linux world Is the uh intel Distro, I forgot the name of it. Yeah clear linux clear linux. Yeah it's created by uh hardware manufacturer clear linux So we're getting more and more than those so we got like three or four right now by hardware manufacturers So is this thing thing called edge? the one that we just talked about Maybe I'm not 100% certain. Okay, because they have a house with you I just don't actively look at like uh microsoft involvement with linux other than you know I know that they're a part of uh steering committee and all that all right, so they have it They do have another one. It's called azure iot edge And that was released in january I don't Think that it's available to download but I might be wrong um, it's probably not and might just I'm maybe this is something completely different google. I think google has led me wrong here. Um Yeah, it's correct. I don't know it's it's uh azure stack edge You can try it you can try it for free and download Because you can run it in wsl Yeah, I think so I don't I don't know. We're probably completely messing that up. It doesn't really matter. I was just curious because We're linux guys. We don't know this window stuff Like when was the last time any of us has actually used I mean I used wsl Maybe like four years ago when it first came out, but since then I haven't even touched it So I don't I have never touched wsl Well azure azure stack edge. Yeah, you try it on the cloud Well, yeah, it's it's I don't think that they're always Because I don't I don't know anyways, let's go ahead and move on to the last one For so for this one is mine red hat so The title of this one on l w n Really got people up in arms And it's really not that big a deal but red hat it says red hat is dropping support for library office And like everybody like if you read the comments some of the comments are Freaking the fuck out I mean it's like like how do enterprise users do without an office suite? Do they run microsoft office 625 and their browser or google docs? Um, that's exactly what they do Well, probably way Probably what they did before library office was gone for support So basically what this is is that red hat has been maintaining the package the rpm packages for Uh fedora and red hat for a very long time Library office does not support their own packages and they Never have other than the stuff that they put out on their website, right? so The disremain tainers have been responsible for packaging and distributing library office for a long time They do not want to do that anymore specifically because now flat pack exists So basically what this is is they're just moving library office from an rpm package to a flat pack flat pack Package and that's the way people will get labor office and and i tutored about this earlier Don't be surprised when this is not the last one that this happens to so because so red hat maintains a lot of packages that are p.m. There are rpm packages right now Slowly over time they're going to stop supporting those completely and Anything that's possible to be a flat pack is going to be a flat pack Just the way it's going to happen. They're going to be doing the Canonical has been doing this for five years moving things away from being dead packages and packages to them as snaps because it's easier for them to maintain The reason why when you go to project silver blue dot org it says this is the future of fedora It because it is the future of adora It's also the future and and yeah, it's because it's also the future of red hats the way things are going to go Um, even if it doesn't go completely. I mean the mutable thing. I think is going to be You know a mixture between You know regular linux and immutable for quite a long time But flat pack the flat pack future Is here for fedora and for rel. It's just the way it's It's the way they want it it makes it doesn't make sense because there's no there's no sense in them maintaining a basically what You know a downstream version of labor office when the flat pack version is always going to get the updates first You know it because it's the official one and just makes sense for that newer package to always be the thing And for them not to to expend any Plus plus plus and I this is Me talking the customizer here Uh flat packs are for some reason get Use themes better For some reason Like when I was using the regular repository package of uh, labor office And i'm using leon for some reason Uh, you know where it says the formatting the lines and everything. They were black on black Back on gray when I installed the flat pack. It's using the leon theme, but correctly Yeah, do you do you know why? Why? Because arch linux does not package gtk support for uh, labor office properly Also doesn't it also doesn't package spell check or any of the other stuff. It's Dumb yep, and and that's another that's another reason why that why uh Red hat is probably dropping the rpm package because it makes no sense to like It's just a multiplication of effort. Well, and you always have to you have to compile everything with the external dependencies you have to include all of the You know dictionaries for hun spell and everything if you want to support multiple languages Which most you know people want to do I installed I I installed the flat pack version of labor office just before the show To see what it includes what it doesn't include. It just includes the english dictionary doesn't include Yeah, and I I understand, but I'm just just saying they're all how to install how to install the separate Dictionaries if not from within the app itself Well, then I think there are flat pack versions of the other dictionaries available. I'm not I I I check I check no not yet at least So there's only english and to to support any other languages you have to install the spell checker I mean the language support via the plugin whatever thing you all believe we're all Yeah, there's not I thought maybe there would be but yeah, there's not when it comes to arch you can install them as separate packages Oh, I don't know flexibility here no flexibility there Maybe they're gonna because if they if they integrate all the dictionaries in the same flat pack Package the flat pack package is gonna end up being a gig big He's gonna be a Matt rather Rather than running flat pack install. Maybe you want to be running a flat pack search for library office Yeah, I know it and that That would show you everything for it. I was just dead. I just did there. Well, there's three packages There's flat pack flat pack. I mean library office stable Libre office help and library office some sort of visio plugin or whatever Yeah, the install only had three basically just shows the main packages because it doesn't show the the dependencies Um, it's fine But anyways a lot of people like if you read through the comments of the lwm article that there's just So many people like I don't I don't You know like just freaking out about this whole thing and I don't People don't like there are there's a very vocal community out there that Obviously, there's a vocal community that hates snaps and I'm part of that community There's also a vocal community that don't like any containerized package format at all. They always want net native packages And I think that that's where most of the outrage About this thing has come from as it is those few people just do not want any containers whatsoever on their system and they Always want native packaging About native packaging. I would I would say this about native packaging the packaging come with so many dependencies that Becomes dizzying at some point Well, I mean we've been dealing with that for a very long time people are used to it They also a lot of people like the idea of having control over their dependencies You know so that you know they can pay attention to version numbers and things like that if they want to You know people people like that idea of having that control of things being independently installed and not all this packaged into one thing but You just gonna have to get over it because flat packs just the way things are going, you know, that's the way I look at it like Native packaging isn't gonna go anywhere. It's just gonna be I guarantee someone in rpm fusion is going to package librae office if you want a native package probably I mean it's just probably gonna happen Uh, I agree with that Although I don't know why why would you why would you bother because I mean That's that just Smells like a package is going to be put out there into a repository somewhere And then eventually the developer is going or the maintainer is going to get bored with it and just leave it It's going to be set at version 7.2 or whatever forever and ever and ever Well, look at me. I maintain packages on on my repositories and there are packages that Uh Although they get updates. I don't see the necessity of updating them anymore. They're mainly themes. I mean not themes. I mean What's it called gavantum themes? I don't care about gavantum themes. I leave them the version they're at And there are but the advantage of maintaining packages like for me especially is I can hold Pitches back When it comes to Nvidia Other packages as well so Some packages I prefer to build myself so I can control which ones Which version I push? Yeah, and uh, that that is the advantage that you have and you can do much the same thing with flat packs too If you really want to you can spin up your own flat pack repository and and uh, may pull down a flat flat pack references Those and then be able to build up build up your own flat packs and distribute them yourself There's a there's a documentation on how to build your own flat packs and they're not very it's not very difficult to To grasp because it's it's very similar to pkg build on the a u r except. Yes It's it pulls from source and it Pitches differently. Well, well like we talked about earlier with arch going immutable arch is always going to be a little bit different when it comes to packages because Because of the a u r right because they're much more. I mean Reliant on native binaries and native packaging and stuff I'm speaking of which a lot of packages from the a u r from the past months till now From the packages I maintain from uh from the a u r There's 30 packages that I used to maintain from the a u r that moved to the extra repository Pretty in the past month. So what a day? Mm-hmm That's a good thing because to honestly there's a lot of packages on the a or that should be in like the extra repository To mismanager that thing will never move to the to the to the thing because uh Ever reason arch reason That's package should be on the extra they They're actually much more willing to put stuff in extra now than it used to be it feels like maybe that's just something that Something in my mind. I think they did the move But if it is what is it the move it just feels like they're more willing to put stuff in extra than Because it used to be they were very very stingy with that repository almost as stingy as they are with core You know, um, I don't know. Yeah, but I think I think that's the reason why they did the migration to begin with Because they want to shove everything that the moves from the a u r uh in there What? Well, I thought I thought from from what I was ringing they did it mostly because the the the The gets the other reason get supports better, you know Issue tracking and bug tracking and stuff like that plus it's not tracking on the Git lab they got open bug tracking on git lab and Because they wanted to move away from a system they used to use. I forgot the name of it But yeah, uh Brody talked about this in detail, but Uh suffice it to say one of the other reasons I think is because they want to start accepting more and more packages from the a u I'd be surprised if that really happens I would love it if that would really happen less packages for me to maintain They have gotten more accepting of the a u r in recent years, but They've almost I mean They're they're still very anti a u r in a lot of places like the because and for good reason because a lot of those packages They have to be wary of because the But let's just face it the the maintainers no offense. Steve in the a u r of packages aren't the most I don't know consistent of people, you know There's some packages on there that probably shouldn't be Redistributed by by this team by the team like uh, there there's a couple a u r packages versus like uh the the a u r is The only linux build of that piece of software because it's really just extracting an exe file Yeah, uh, like generating its own electron. Yeah, I'm talking about these are here You know, let's let's pull it out. Let's pull it on the windows binary unpack the exe file Rebuild our own electron container Does the flat pack version do the same thing of the deezer? Is that with flat pack? Yeah, the flat pack has the uh has the uh windows uh executable in there I don't explain why it's so bad Yeah, I guess just explains so much why it's so bad. Um, that's the reason I don't even have it installed I just use it on my phone But no, you said something matt that is really uh, I fall under that category Fortunately, and I have to admit it Oh after admitting it if you don't want to use zero linux out there I don't I don't blame you Even though I maintain packages on my on my repository. I don't pretend to understand half of them how they have how half of them work I do it For the users who request them because they don't want to spend 20 30 minutes seeing them from the a u r So I do it for them and I put it there and I cannot possibly test All the packages that I maintain on my repository. So, uh, I don't understand half the things because that was brought up when we were talking, uh About the tkg versus vanilla nvidia drivers Uh, I was asked. Do you even understand what they're doing to the to the nvidia driver to trust them? was like Oh And and when they asked me why do you trust them? because Nobara uses some of their patches in their Distro that's the only reason I trust them and then because I heard chris like to stack say They're second to none I was like if they trust them I should too I trusted them well When I when I cut I mean we talked about this two weeks ago when you were talking about that is like Sometimes you take other people's trust and you know kind of transfer into your own Yeah, that's what I did but I don't pretend to understand everything like even if I read a pkg build Most of the time I don't understand half what half of it does so I build I test on my own system I sacrifice my system for everyone if it breaks my system then I don't Naturally, I don't put on my repository, but if it doesn't I'm like hey good. It works Well, I'll put on my repository so Yeah, that's it and It's also not like you advertise like zero linux as like a security conscious distribution That's what the our our resident security person Wants zero linux to be security conscious Like how can you do it security conscious? It was like don't use a ur packages Yeah, I mean, uh, he's also just perfectly capable of not installing the tkg package Just installing it the proper nvidia driver for himself if he's willing to complain that much about it It's not like you're shipping him by default. Uh, you still have to click a button to install him That was my argument. But anyway, it's that Zero nix will become at some point very security conscious once we figure out how and what we need to do And by by extension that will mean that we have to remove a lot of a ur packages from our repositories Probably disable the a ur completely Yeah, so, uh, we'll see how that goes manjaro does I mean and they get they have done it for years, right? It's fine. Um, and they just give people the option to use the ur If they want it The zero linux is not enabled. It's disabled. They have to go into pamac and enable it, but uh That nothing is enabled by default on zero. He's talking about the a ur packages. He's maintaining in in the As repository. That's right. Yeah, I had that I was Say thinking of if we want to be very secure we'll delete all the a ur packages from our repositories and let the users decide if they should build them themselves or not and uh Enable some security related uh things. I'm not talking about se linux because se linux is a nightmare But the small security things that we we need to enable and recommend users not to use the a ur if they want to Have a stable system Please atosh. I have way more than eight gigabytes for firefox. I'm just saying Okay, okay guys, let's do a ram check right now. Uh, how much ram are we using? I'm I'm using 3.4 gigs I'm using 14.7 I'm using 7.8 When I was a game No, I win the maximum Guys gotta also remember I have two virtual machines open right now. So that's taking up some So oh speaking of virtual machines now now i'm doing like you everything in virtual machines Uh, i'm building everything on virtual machines. I'm not touching my main system my main system this Install of zero and x shall last for decades It's arch. There's no way it's lasting for decades Right josh hoping for it I mean you can you can make it last for decades if you're willing to never turn never turn it on I have my computer in the store has been running zero linux for the past two years Two years not a problem Besides the I'm glad it's working perfectly fine for you The one that surprised me the most is john and the chai who's using only four and a half gigs on windows That seems low Well, he must be using he must be using a custom isa All the services and telemetry. I haven't seen anybody with more than me yet. Um, so winning Wait, wait yesterday yesterday as I was updating all my virtual machines. I was using 20 22 gigabytes of RAM Let me see here my my my web server right now is using 17.8 gigs of memory Why your web server? rain Yeah, why? Because the web server runs in a ram disk Oh, okay. All right. Anyways, look at case. It's got it. We got very distracted there. It's fine. Um So we nerded out about ram and we talked about file systems. I'm just so happy with the file systems conversation Um, it's really good Anyways, let's go ahead and move on that proves that you are a true nerd Yes, the thingies of the week So we call these the thingies of the week because we couldn't call them anything else Because all the rest of the stuff is trademarked sadly But thingies of the week works. Just get your mind out of the gutter. It's not what it's supposed to be. Anyways, uh Steve your steve where's steve where's steve go? Here Like I got a steve that steve you're thinking where the fuck did steve go? Steve you're you're thingy of the week My thingy of the week is called no machine It's called no machine And no machine what no machine is it's basically ramina, but better It's uh remote desktop, but better. It's all remote desktop apps, but better Okay Why better? I mean Why better? Like I used to use real vnc real vnc vnc whatever it's called on the arch repositories. They they they really confuse the names But I used to use real vnc. I used to use the team viewer all these limit you Like real vnc limits you to five computers To which you have to pay for each one you add With team viewer you're limited on time. You can only access a certain machine for five minutes or something like that Ramina and the free open source world Never works for me You could never see any of my computers whereas no machine. I I maintain the package Thus I have access to the pkg build and what I do with the pkg build is enable the auto service So it enables the service upon install so I have a question for you steve This is a feature that's built into xorg Or you can actually forward your entire x environment over ssh I know why aren't you just doing that because that's complex With with no machine with no machine you just basically open the window it Click on the machine you want to access and there you go you input the username and the password you have full access Uh, and you can drag and drop files decks whatever between machines. It's awesome Uh, and I use it on my to to use my steam deck because when I when I switch it to desktop mode And I connect my steam deck over wi-fi to my steam deck over wi-fi I control the steam deck with keyboard mouse without having to connect the keyboard and mouse physically to the steam deck using the dock Or whatever and I have access to To everything I want so I access I have six machines home instead of going physically to each machine and They and do stuff on it and it works and it supports unlimited amounts of Of computers without you having to pay anything unless you want to use it in an enterprise environment Then you have to pay a license per computer, but we're not using it in an enterprise environment So we don't need to pay Anything ever ever forever free. This is their tagline forever free so Basically, all I do is install the package open the open the app connect to a computer done Doesn't require any setup whatsoever whatsoever and you can control what resolution you can control what What you want to do on the system via some you can even set up Scripts to run when you connect to a computer you can do a lot of complex things if you want to I don't want to I just want to connect to a computer steam deck whatever and do what I need to do and it just works I've been using it for Three three years since I started using linux and I've been the happiest man ever because when people recommended remina I was like it's a free open source. Let me try it Not discover a computer cannot connect connection refused ever whatever I had to Scratch my head and search the internet for answers because no machine double click Next time Don't need to do anything Here's a better and it's super new friendly. I would recommend it for any new wants to remote access their computer cool Josh, you're thinking of no machine. No machine one word My thing is like here might trigger some people Because uh because I've discovered the world's greatest text editor. It is called laps Spelled with a c not an s by the way. I made a mistake with the c not an s I'll I'll fix on the show notes after the stream, but this is a text editor written in rust using the druid toolkit Which is basically just like a gooey toolkit purely intended for rust and uh Thing launches just like to just like programs from the good old days. We're just like You tell it to open and before you're even done Before before you even done letting go of the enter key on your keyboard after you after you type it into your application launcher It's already open and it's ready to go. I don't understand this whole thing. I don't I don't understand Vim isn't slow Vim isn't slow Vim Vim is not slow. Okay. This is also not slow and I Think that this is faster than vim. I got wait. Okay. I Vim can be slow if you load it with plugins. Well, if you all load a whole bunch of plugins less than Now if if I completely remove all the plugins from them A bit vim is a lot faster for me. But then again, I also only use like six plugins for vim, too I have seven plugins so I have seven plugins for vim. Mine's very very fast and I couldn't honestly ask it to be any faster I'm just saying I was very offended by your use of the words faster than them And that's why I put that there by the way. Oh, I didn't even I didn't even talk about this I should have talked about this earlier. I installed vanilla emacs I I followed along with dt's um tutorial the other day. It was fine Well, am I the only one who's a nano guy? You're banned from the podcast by the way that I've been using nano for the last month. I despise it with a passion It's it's Horrible, okay. So nano. Okay. Let me just put this nano is not bad It's just if if you started out with nano, you're gonna be fine If but if you've ever if you've taken the time to learn vim and you liked vim going from vim to nano is horrendous It's it's just really bad I'm assuming it's like going like starting out with emacs learning all the emacs key bindings and stuff like that And then going to vim or nano it'd be the same kind of process like you'd be it's just not They're so different and not Yeah If you're coming if you're coming from vim, of course, you're gonna you're gonna hate it because vim is way more complex More advanced than it. Yeah, it's got features that that makes a lot of muscle memory There's a lot of muscle memory involved with them. Mm-hmm that you delete when you go to nano You have to delete when you go to nano. It's a different paradigm than using it for three weeks. The muscle memory is still not gone um Every time it it it honestly does not matter every every single time Like I've been using it like I said for three weeks every single time I open up a document The first thing I do is hit h Absolutely first thing because I'm gonna I want to go down the line. So I'm gonna, you know, or hit j hjkl I'm one of those letters is always gonna be the first one that I press And you know, I I'm still falling into this habit myself where it's just like after I'm done typing something I hit the escape key Usually I mean I'm usually in normal mode. So mine has been typing colon wq or a lot of times, you know shift z zq or something so so like half of my documents have been submitted to um for work Have zq at the end of them For no reason I think it's just so fucking stupid because I haven't I have not been able to get myself to stop saying That's the reason why I changed the key binding for save to control s Because it would remind me that it's kind of like a word processor because that's basically what nanowiz is a word processor Okay. Well, anyways back back to laps here Uh, the the big thing that I'm excited for for laps is that it's it's very it's very They're targeting vs code, but they're not going as deep as vs code is by default They and uh like it has a surprisingly huge selection of plugins and add-ons for already Uh, like I was legitimately surprised to find that they didn't have a hugo site manager add-on But you know, they've got like the 14 plus markdown ones that you would normally expect from a project like this Uh, they they also have lisp integration, uh a full cide Uh plugin and it it's actually really cool And uh, if you're like wanting to like experiment with like different text editors Give this one a look. I highly recommend it because it It's really cool. It by text editor. Do you mean a g y based one or a terminal based one? It is it? It is a g y based one I use k for g y based one. Yeah, k is good Yeah, and honestly and honestly, uh, steve, you should I I recommend you maybe give this one a look I believe it's in the a u r laps in the u r right now It is in the u r by the way it is If it is okay since it is in the a u r i'm uh, if I like it i'm gonna put it on my repo Why not? Yeah, that said it is still very much a beta project. Uh, they they haven't released what they call a stable release. It's an it's an extra No, you are it's an extra Oh, okay. Oh, there you go steve. You don't even have to package it But uh, it they they haven't hit 1.0. It is 0.2 Uh, so uh, it is still very much in a beta state and it can be a little bit crashy at times, uh, but I think it's got a future ahead of it The a you yeah You mentioned, uh A while back you mentioned a package to me Uh, specifically for gnome, uh, that was called the turtle legit Little git. Yeah turtle git turtle git That to replace the one i were or not to replace but to try instead of the one i'm using Uh, and I can tell you that thing is receiving git commits like there's no after tomorrow Okay, I think the guy behind I think the guy behind that one specifically is a gnome developer and uh Compared to uh, but the icons on the icons are the same exactly the as the one i'm using Yeah That is the difference that might make me switch It's the fact that they actually update as soon as you modify a file versus the other one where you had to You have to hit f5 Update the icons on the icons. All right gents. I need to do mine. So mine is tridactyl It is a plugin for firefox if you Are a vim user as you should be um And you want to have vim keybind inks everywhere There are actually many there are Quite a few plugins that allow you to integrate them plug them Movements and them key bindings into your your browser Tridactyl is just another one that this one is for firefox is Awesome, so if you have used q browser or you've used like vib Or you've used there's there's another vim based browser out there. That's really good Tridactyl is kind of based on that only it's a plugin for firefox And it has the you the gooey or the the the user interface Of q browser for you know bringing up URLs and stuff like that. It's very nerdy It's themeable with css It has a few built-in themes So if you want to change it with the look and feel as you can it has Need to follow themes. Can you download through ready made themes? I I'm assuming there probably are some out there. It's still in early development But it's very it has quite a few Prebuilt in but any anyways it has a ton of options like i'm talking Like two or three hundred different options If so if you like tinkering with things this is one of one of the best ones so like Um surfing keys is another option. It doesn't have nearly as many options as tridactyl does Um, I think that one's for chrome. There's like vim vimsy or vimium or something like that I think those are either the same the two different ones those have options But no more near I think is as many as tridactyl is so it's really really good I've been using it now for quite a while I will say if you're not willing to do the configuration through either their little configuration panel or Through the interface itself. It can get a little tedious But and a lot of the document take quote unquote documentation is very technical so If you're not Willing to kind of parse through that stuff. It can be a little bit, you know difficult, but it's it's okay It's pretty good It's become my favorite vim style plugin for firefox That's the one I've been using for ages. So uh, that is It that is the podcast Wow guys, we had some really good Yeah, yeah, we know we've had some really good conversations there. I'm just I'm still stoked about the file the file We can we can have uh Part two next week It was just so good. Um, anyways if you that is it for this week We record live every saturday around three o'clock p.m. Eastern time. We usually go for around two hours or so Usually we we've been doing a better job of starting on time But we still and we've actually been going longer than normal. So we still get done around five o'clock in the afternoon It's a thing. Anyways, you can Find our live stream on youtube.com slash linux cast if you want to support me You can support me on patreon.com slash linux cast. Thanks to everybody who does support me on patreon Uh and youtube, uh, you guys are all absolutely amazing without your support I truly would not Still be doing this probably like seriously. There's so many times just like I think hey You know people actually paying me to do this. So I might as well make a video. So um, I appreciate that seriously Thank you for your support. I truly do just you guys are awesome. Uh, thanks everybody for watching. We'll see you next week Bye