 and welcome another episode of The Nonprofit Show. Today is day three of Nonprofit Power Week with the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption. Today we have with us Jill Krumbacher. Jill joins us and serves as the Senior Vice President, Marketing and Development at the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption. And she's here to shine some light on ethical non-profit storytelling. I'm excited for this conversation. I knew that this was day three of our Nonprofit Power Week, but it's a fantastic conversation for us to have. And I'm really looking forward to having this with you, Jill. But before we jump into our conversation, we want to remind our viewers and our listeners who we are. So hello to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jared Ransom, your non-profit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. And again, we are honored to have the ongoing support from our very amazing presenting sponsors that include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption for this week's Power Week, Fundraising Academy at National University, Bee Generous, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, non-profit thought leader, and the non-profit nerd. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to these companies. And we encourage you to check them out because their mission is your mission. So do check them out. They're here to help you elevate your programs or awareness, your mission across your community. And again, if you missed any of our almost 700 episodes, you can find us on Roku, YouTube, Amazon, Fire TV, Bimeo, as well as podcasts. So listen to the non-profit show wherever you stream your podcast as well. And again, today, we are so thrilled, Jill. Welcome back, my friend. Again, for those of you watching and listening, Jill Krumbacher, Senior VP, Marketing and Development at the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption. So thrilled to have you. It's great to be here again. You ladies are always fun to talk to and we've got a great topic today. Well, thank you. And again, for those of you watching and listening, you know, Jill really comes to us, comes to us with so much insight personally and professionally. And you are an adoptive mother. Is that correct, Jill? I am. I have one biological daughter, an adopted son and an adopted daughter. So yes, one adoption from foster care as a teen and one adoption internationally. So fans got them all covered. Yeah. Love it. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for that. And I love that, you know, so often, Jill, and you know this, you know, we walk the walk of our passion for a mission and within the nonprofit sector. And yet maybe we really haven't been there. Maybe we haven't, we really don't know the path. And yet we have to stand up and we have to, you know, champion that mission. And so I always love it when we can find somebody in leadership that knows this path because it just, I think, makes it more authentic and genuine and accurate. And so super cool. I think when we first met you, we didn't know that we just thought you were a hired gun that had, you know, background and marketing and PR and development. And we were like, okay, yay team. But this is a really cool and sacred thing for anybody in the nonprofit sector. I think it is amazing. So we have a lot to talk about. So we're going to jump right in. And we're going to ask you is how do you choose your speakers and storytellers for something that is such a profound topic and very emotional? Right, right. So speakers are one thing and storytellers are another because, you know, in our world, speakers are often talking about the mission of the organization. And you tend, you know, you're looking for polish and you're usually talking about staff or sometimes board. But a storyteller for us is usually coming out of the community that we serve. And so when we are looking for the storytellers, we're looking for a couple of things. Number one, we are looking for people that we've served. It could be a youth that's been adopted often or family that has adopted. But we're looking for that youth in particular who is not currently in their trauma, if you would. So for us, our trauma topic, there are a lot of trauma topics is not having family, you know, and and living in that foster care situation and not having a permanent family. And so we look for the storyteller who has, in our instance, always been adopted, now has been adopted and can look back and reflect on. And there's a number of reasons for that. And we'll talk more about that as we go. But we are looking for someone who is out of it looking back. And we're looking for someone who can, you know, really share from the heart, open up a little bit. But we're talking about youth in a lot of cases. And so sometimes that's hard to judge. But, you know, we're looking for family members and youth who can reflect back, who can share more of the emotion behind our story, how we feel about things. But always from an after point kind of looking back is what we hope to find from storyteller. Now, let me ask you another question, because as we have an aging society or population that is further removed from your founder story, the Wendy's Connection, Dave Thomas, do you spend time sharing that origination story as much? Or are you more into what the current market, and I'm going to use the word marketplace, but the current service market is? I mean, how do you navigate those two things? We do, of course, talk about our founder and that origin story, more so on things like our website, more so on things like annual report, you know, he will always be brought here because of his vision and how he set up this organization. None of us would be here. None of this would get done without him having done. So we don't want to lose it. But typically in the marketing and fundraising work that we do, we don't have much time. Right. And if you've got to pick one topic, whether it's an ad that's popping up on the internet, or, you know, it's a PSA video, you don't have much time radio ad, you get straight to the issue at hand. So typically, because of the length of time that we have, we can't make that connection. And we go straight to the cause, straight to the problem. Interesting. Thank you. Thank you. Because I love what you said. I totally see that. And I think that's really smart. And that's a really smart way to go. You really, really do. Well, and I love the delineation of speakers versus storytellers. And I always love when agencies, you know, use their client to tell the story and how you shared the difference there. Jill is very powerful, you know, but to do it in such an ethical manner and to be top of mind for that is equally important. So I appreciate how you share, you know, choosing your speaker and choosing your storyteller and how, how you go about doing that. Right. Yeah. Yes. So I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, go ahead. I along those lines of what you just said. And Jared, you framed this up beautifully because you have to deal with a really tough, tough story. So how are you mindful of this storytelling? How are you keeping your folks, you know, the stories private where they need to and the traumatic aspect of this? Those are a lot of balls to juggle in the media air. They certainly are. And so I think this is a challenge that's so unique to human services, the ones, you know, those of us that are working in the nonprofits that are dealing with human beings, you know, certainly there's ethical issues around animals and, and, you know, and around some other things and the environment. But with human beings, we have souls that feel that trauma. And we can bring back to mind things that maybe those, those human beings have wrestled with for many, many years. And so that is what we're trying to keep in mind when we're looking at our storytellers. We want to be sure that they are ready and that they are willing to share their story. But even when they are ready and they're willing, sometimes after they do it, they still feel the effects of that, even though I'm willing, even though I know this important is the story is important to tell. And I'm game, I might not see what's going to come at me the next day or the next week when I've just sort of relived those moments in my head. And so those are kind of conversations that we often have with the families as they are thinking about telling their story and having their youth involved telling their story. And we need them to tell their story, right? So we want them to, but we want to be really careful that we let them know what might come, you know, that that this can bring back memories that they hadn't thought about a while, or they hadn't voiced in a while. And that, you know, scheduling an appointment with a counselor, you know, shortly after might be a great idea, right? And just to think about that and expect that, you know, a little bit is those conversations we like to have with the parents. What about Jill? Nowadays, you know, we all have access to recording devices and whether the event is intended to be recorded or that story is intended to be recorded. I think we have to show up with the assumption that at any given point, anything we say or do could be recorded. How do you address that when it comes to ethical storytelling from the storyteller's point of view? Right, right. So, you know, a lot of the storytelling that we do is controlled by us in the sense that we are heavy video takers. If you if you go look on our website, we are in control of that video. We are in control of where we share it. And we take extra steps, for instance, to make sure that when they are giving us permission to share their stories, like we just changed our form, where they're giving us legal forms, where they're giving us permission to spell out in detail for them. It's not just all mass media, because you think, okay, well, what does that mean? But this could be a billboard, like you could be driving down the road and you might see your face on a billboard. This could mean, you know, an ad on the internet as you're browsing. This could mean so that they can sort of get an idea around what it is they're agreeing to, because all of those things don't necessarily come into mind. What you're talking about is iPhones and all of that is at events. And that is less so frequent for us and often very corporate audiences who tend to respect that a little bit more. But we do ask audiences to not, you know, air any of that stuff, you know, because again, we're dealing with children. And usually when you're dealing with youth, people can usually behave a little bit more and think about that. So we've not had a huge problem with that. Thankfully, we try to control but really be as clear as we can be with the families as they're considering all the ways that this might show up for them so they can think through it. That makes sense. The one thing I think of often, and we refer to this, Julia, is that Benavon model, right? The breakfast event, that it's a free event and agencies pull in storytellers to share their story. But I often worry, Jill, that so many agencies are also not considering the trauma that this could incite for that individual. So thank you truthfully. Thank you and genuinely for how you do approach this and being mindful of the privacy and trauma. Now, you shared with us, you know, behind the scenes in our green room chatter, that safety over success kind of mantra that the foundation holds. Tell us a little bit about this. Sure. So we are definitely dedicated when we have to make a choice between the emotional health and safety, psychological health and safety of the people that we serve, of our youth and families, over the success of whatever it is that we're trying to achieve, often awareness, many times fundraising, that we always choose the safety of the youth and the family over our success. And that comes out in a number of ways. For instance, it would probably be a lot more successful for us in our fundraising acts if we show to youth in the middle of their crisis, in the middle of their breakdown, that youth that has not yet found an adoptive family. And there are many groups that take that route and they do that. But for us, we choose not to do that. It would, we would probably raise more money by zooming in on that pain. And you're still going to see pain after it's over as you're reflecting back. But for us, we don't want to zoom in on that pain. We don't want to have youth have to ask for an adoptive family and then not find one. And then what does that say about me? Right. So we're very committed to that idea of letting them look back and reflect versus taking that moment, which may bring in a more dollars when they're sort of in the middle of that very real and raw pain. But also, you know, we, since we do a lot of storytelling and a lot of video, we're sending people on flights, we invest a lot of money in going all across the country and to Canada to film these stories of youth and their families. And we will absolutely trash that video and throw it away when anything comes from that family where they don't want that story told for any reason afterwards. It's gone. It's shredded. It's no more. And so, and we've had to make, you know, we've made those decisions. We have gone out and just filmed a family and just paid for all the editing and just on all the stuff. And something changes within that family structure where they no longer feel comfortable. They've already signed the forms. It doesn't matter. It's gone. It's gone. Right. And so we will, that's what we mean by that. Their safety over our success every time without a doubt in all the ways that that could show up. You know, I appreciate that because I think that that needed to be said, that needs to be communicated as to all the different types of people that watch the nonprofit show is that sometimes you can make these investments and ultimately you got to end them because they're not appropriate. They're not ethical. They're not ultimately going to help anybody that they're intended to help. But I'm very curious about it seems to me having followed you now for quite a while. It seems to me that you are moving towards and I would call this like a more joyful approach, like demonstrating and this is such a drilled down word but happiness like the joyful aspect of a new family commitment. Is that true or is that just really what's happening? It is true and it is what's happening. You know, we do know though that we can't focus only on happy. So we are telling those happy endings because if people don't understand the sad side of the story and almost get angry about the sad side of the story, they are not going to take action. So it's a balance. So we make a financial choice not to zoom into that, to really make use of that and build up that anger, right? And to get people, you know, get people to give or whatever it is that we want them to do, we have to find a way to do that on the other side when there is a happy ending and when the youth is looking back. But that's why we often ask the youth to describe how did it, how did it feel, you know, when you didn't have a family? How did it feel when you didn't have a safe place to live? How did it feel to move from house to house to house to house? Because if we just told the happy story all the time, we found that, well, that's great. They've got it covered. Great. They don't need our help, right? We don't, I don't need to get involved. And no, we do need everybody to get involved. And we need people to understand that without this work that's happening, that wouldn't have changed and there wouldn't have been a happy ending. So it's a balance of the two. Definitely telling the happy story about we would be remiss if we left out the heartbreak that initially happened because that's what moves people to act. We just don't want to abuse that side of it in order to get, you know, larger financial returns. Yeah. And I think we all know, I mean, let's be honest, we can all think to like those billboards that definitely focus on the crisis. We can definitely think of the commercials and this certain particular artist that's going to make us cry anytime we hear her songs and a poor, you know, animal in a cage. Like though that it clearly works, right? Like it clearly works because it's being done. But how else might we shift and shape the landscape to truly honor that privacy as well as the potential trauma that it could evoke? This is all so fantastic. Let's move into honoring the heroes. Let's tell us about this because I love the safety of our success. And again, thank you for having that commitment to, you know, your client or the individuals, you know, that you're serving. But, you know, how do you also honor the true heroes in your storytelling? I think it's really easy when your storytelling or when you're working for a nonprofit to make yourself the hero in a tragic situation. Yeah. And that gets a lot of, listen, it can get a lot of airplay and get a lot of notice from donors who want to come in. But the truth is we may come along and assist and help, but the true hero in our case, and I think in every case, if you stop to think about it again in human services is the youth that we're serving and the family that has stepped up. Those two are the heroes. They have their own strength that has seen them through what they've lived through. They have found their own inspiration to walk into a youth's life and to be that change. They are the heroes. We may come in and have a peace that is super important even, but we are not the hero. They are. And so I think having that mindset when you step in to do this work will help you create the story that is ethical, if you can keep that in mind. Five years from now, when they look back and they watch this video of their start, are they going to feel proud of themselves? Are they going to feel like, look at me and look what I've come through and look what I've become? Or are they going to feel, gosh, I was pathetic and sad if not for this group who came in and saved me. I may not. That's not real. It's not true. And you never want to have that effect on a youth. So understanding and building up their strength, what they've done to keep going and what the families have done to wrap around is always here. And we've got to keep that in the right balance as a nonprofit. Again, working in human services, you've got to get that right. You know, I'm fascinated by so many of these things. And you've made me, God, you've got my brain just whirling. When you talk about this process that you're doing, I'd like to drill down a little bit and ask you some mechanical things. Like how many families or children are you filming a year? And if you're doing video, are you also taking still photography at that same time? Can you walk us through what that might look like? We don't have a lot of time left, but it's such, I think, a really interesting aspect to get your hands around. Yeah. We are filming between six to 10 families a year probably. And so all across the country and in Canada, it's a scheduling thing to make that all happen. And we do also take still shots on most of those. And then out of those videos will come out of each family will come 10 to 12 videos, at least, right? Of different lengths or different focuses. So we might be focusing on the parent side of the story or the child side of the story. Or in our case, we have adoption recruiters that work with these families. So we might really zoom in on those. So as time has gone by, we're doing more and more. So we're closer probably to 8 to 10, but lots and a lot of video content is coming out of that. And then we turn a lot of that into blog and written storytelling as well that you can read more about on the website. And then a lot of quotes that we pull out of it to use in visual communication. So lots of mining of information out of those 8 to 10 family videos shoots. And then that how long does that content last for you? Like how long do you as an organization actually keep using that content? Yeah, we use it for a couple of years, probably we're heavy in the first year. We'll use some different cuts of it into the second year. Occasionally, we will choose a family where we filmed them five years ago and we want to do a where are you now? And so we might pull sort of that here's where they were. And now let's check in and see what's happening. Oh, this youth is in college. This family's adopted two more. Oh my goodness, right. And so we'll we'll do it that way. But we do we are constantly creating new content and building a library for us since we're a national organization, making sure we have stories in as many states as we can have. Diversity is important. And so we want to make sure that people can see themselves reflected in the content that we're putting out. And so that's important. And so that that those things leave us with creating a lot of video and a lot of content and using it for a couple of years. Well, and when you can repurpose and repackage in so many ways and to really maximize and leverage the time of the family and the story, what a fantastic opportunity to really, again, just maximize, you know, that impact. And as you said, in other states across the nation, even Canada, right, like, having the access to this, one of the things that I've learned, you know, in marketing, and it's really funny. And maybe some people don't think of it, you know, I reside in Arizona. Well, if you give me a skyline of another city, I'm going to know that that's not my skyline. So having those little tweaks for your, your community and in the geography in which you reside, I think, again, it just, it resonates, right? It helps to tell the story in a humanistic, relatable manner. Right. Absolutely. Well, this has been great. I mean, we are, we're very interested in you Jill specifically, because you're one of the rare leaders in the nonprofit sector that manages not only your marketing, but also the development. And we've had you want to talk about this. We're going to actually have you back on later in the week. It's such an interesting, interesting structure that the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption has taken. And it seems to have been very successful. And Jared and I have talked about this off and on. How in the heck do you do it? We have no idea, because it's such great stuff, great stuff. But it's great leadership, because it's such a stunning concept to take these two major pieces and put them together. And so very interesting. And so for those of you watching or listening to the nonprofit show today, that's really where a lot of Jill Krombacker's genius comes from is understanding and straddling, you know, the marketing communications along with the development. And so it's a very, very interesting thing. For those of you not familiar with the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption, or even if you are, I really encourage you to go on and look at their website. It is masterfully done, well branded. It's on message. It's extremely organized and a real achievement, I think, and something to look at. No matter the size of your nonprofit, there are just gems in there that you can pick out. So check out DaveThomasFoundation.org and watch for more of Jill Krombacker, Senior Vice President of Marketing and Development for the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption. What an amazing, amazing storyteller you are for your organization. Thank you. Thank you, Julie and Jared. It's been a pleasure. Always. And I just want to put it out there. Maybe next year for our nonprofit Power Week, maybe we can join you in your office. I think that would be great to broadcast from there and to see some of the staff in action because as you just referenced as every good leader would your staff, right? So thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah, it's really been amazing. Just to remind everybody, this is one of those unique things that Jared and I only do a couple of times a year. It's been nonprofit Power Week. We pick one organization, a topic, and then we drill down for five days with that group. And it's very arduous for both sides, for both teams, but it's really where we get a lot of amazing insight that really digs deep into how to be more successful with our missions. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. Again, we want to thank all of our partners that have allowed us to have this incredibly meaningful and robust conversation for nonprofit Power Week, American Nonprofit Academy, Blumerang, Dave Thomas Foundation, Fundraising Academy at National University, Be Generous, your part-time controller, nonprofit nerd, nonprofit thought leader, and staffing boutique. These are the folks that are with us day in, day out. Jared, what did you say the number was for the episode? Gosh, of course you're going to ask me to do that. I think you're like six, seven, two or something like that. Yeah, but we're coming up on 700 right around Christmas. Yeah, amazing. Well, Jill, thank you so much for what you do within your organization, within our communities. You're such an inspiration. And I think Jared and I always feel really excited when we can learn from another leader on how to do it right and how that makes the mission more successful. It's been really an honor to spend this time with you. So thank you. Yeah, thank you, race. Hey, we like to end every episode. We want to remind ourselves, our viewers, our listeners, our guests to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone. Thanks so much, ladies.