 You're welcome back to the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Our first major conversation this morning is still about the topic of reintegration of repentant Boko Haram members. Now, the National Chairman of the Arowa Consultative Forum, Aldo Albi, has released a statement regarding this, basically criticizing the government for attempting to reintegrate these repentant Boko Haram members into society. They say what they need is a fair trial. Let's invite Public Affairs Analyst, Mr Amit Buhari, to discuss this. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Good morning, everyone. It's good to be here. Alright, let's first get your initial reaction to the concept of the Nigerian army now saying they are accepting, surrendered or repentant Boko Haram terrorists into society rather than, you know, go ahead to do what many Nigerians expect of them, which is ensuring that these people are prosecuted. Thank you for having me. With regards to the issue that concerns the repentant Boko Haram members, you know, it's very hard for some of us to hear that they're going to be forgiving and reintroduced into the system as normal people. There's no doubt in my mind that they're not going to be normal people at this stage, but also it's important for us to realize that these are people that the nation has failed. When Boko Haram started its campaign massacring people in the northeast, they didn't just massacre people at different times. They stole people, people who have been neglected by the system, by the government, who couldn't be protected by the police. And these people were not just stolen, but they were stolen and then reintroduced to a new ideology. In other words, they were polluted to become murders, keyless, and what have you. People were stolen, families were stolen, and brothers were made to rape sisters. Brothers were made to rape mothers. Sons were made to actually kill fathers. And these are the kind of people that they turned into become, they radicalized them. So, yes, they have committed heinous crimes. Yes, on the other hand, the government, the system has also failed in trying to protect them from these criminals called Boko Haram. So in my opinion, it's very important for us to always look at it from both sides and understand that just the way it happened in Liberia, Sierra Leone, where young children were picked up and actually stolen by people who had some crazy agenda, taking these young children to different places and making them become monsters is exactly what has happened in the northeast. You know, I remember there was a story of a young girl who was rescued by the Nigerian Army and she actually found that we are running back to the den of the Boko Haram people. In other words, her mindset has changed. But at the same time, are we going to now say we have failed to protect them at the same time? Now that we have rescued them, what we're not trying to do to them is to kill them? I don't think so. But Mr. Buari, the challenge here, I believe, is being able to distinguish between who is a Boko Haram fighter and who is a victim or an abductee, someone who has been taken by Boko Haram. I cannot show you that. So what you're saying now that these hundreds, these thousands, you know, that we see in the news every other week that the government claims to have surrendered and repented are all people who were simply taken from their villages and made to carry out these crimes are not necessarily terrorists. And how do you differentiate between both? To be honest, I cannot differentiate between both. But at the same time, I want us to be mindful of the fact that we have failed as a country, as a government, as a system to protect the lives of these people from being stolen by what I would like to call criminals, Boko Haram criminals. Now we have found a way to get them back. And the first thing we're thinking of doing is kill them. In my opinion, I think we must be careful. I think we must be apologetic for actually not safeguarding these people. I know a lot of girls that were stolen like at the early stages of this Boko Haram mayhem and they could have children that are like 12 year olds now. Those children, I'm not sure you can hold weapons and have become, you know, like Boko Haram. And I'm saying when we get to rescue these people, are we trying to kill them because we failed them in the first place? I want us to have a rethink. I'm not protecting anybody here. I don't care about, you know, Boko Haram or the nonsense that I have done to my people and my communities. But I'm just saying that they are brothers and sisters of ours who have also been stolen for years, who are actually part of this Boko Haram members. And I'm ensuring that those are the information that the military know that makes them feel reluctant sometimes to just go out on everybody because they do know that there are some innocent people that have been compelled to be part of this unfortunate scenario that we couldn't stop from happening. So can any, you know, terrorist claim that he didn't initially want to be a terrorist but, you know, he was filled by the government and he, you know, sought solace with, you know, terrorists from Iran or from Libya and whatnot. And then the government agrees that, okay, yes, we failed you. So let's forgive you and bring you home. Nearly all of them want to save their lives right now. Nearly all of them will say that. But at the same time, what I think we should be doing as a country, right, is put a mechanism in place that can help reorientate these people and remove them from that ideology. I'm not saying you should release them to the streets. I'm saying you're still going to have to lock them up and see how you can reorientate them and bring their minds back to what we think normal people should be thinking at this stage. But for us to gather them all up together after we have failed to protect them from being stolen and say we want to kill them, I have some concerns about that. So, Mr. Buhari, this issue is very dicey, the way I see it. It is very dicey. It is. But I want us to begin first with this question. Can a Boko Haram terrorist who invade communities, rape women, abduct children, be radicalized? He was radicalized in the first place. I believe that he can be radicalized. This is a mental doctor or psychologist question. I wouldn't know how far they can go. We're trying to get these people back to their senses, but I think it's possible. If you can go left, you definitely can go right. So, Buhari, in Sena climbs, we can argue that they have all the infrastructure in place regarding people who went to school for these sort of things, who learnt about psychosocial supports and things like this. But in a country like Nigeria, where even social workers, who people who studied this in school even looked down on, do you think Nigeria is a country and even the military have the infrastructure regarding the personnel, the resources, the facilities, you know, to house repentant Boko Haram terrorists and begin to walk on their minds from the inside out? Do you think we have the resources and facilities to do so? I don't know. I'm not in the army. I'm not with the government. I wouldn't know where they are put in place, but I also want to remind us that the government has failed. It has failed the people of those areas. It has failed the citizens of this country. And so it must stand firm to making sure that they protect these people, not because they have killed people. No, not because they have killed people, but because we have failed as a government, as a system, as a country to protect them from getting stolen. I know a lot of cheap old girls who have been rescued, who still have their mindsets back to the camps because they have found lovers or comfort or friends. The reason why some of these boys actually walk into the Boko Haram dense to surrender themselves to be part of the Boko Haram is because they find even better solace there where they have been given food or taken care of or have a sense of belonging alone. And they go to those places, which means we must wake up as a country and start thinking of other places where this could actually happen and make sure we do not fail our citizens anymore. So is it the name that is the challenge here? Because would it be better to call them victims instead of calling them Boko Haram terrorists? If the government says that we're rehabilitating ex-Boko Haram former Boko Haram repentant Boko Haram terrorists, it makes very little sense. So would it be better from your analysis to call them victims and people who necessarily aren't terrorists, but people who the government had failed and they are victims of this system? You know, it's very, very hard. Like my friend here said, she said it's dicey. It is indeed dicey. I thought about this. The first thing that crossed my mind was what are we even talking about? Those guys should have been killed before they even captured. But even in the worst of wars, once the enemy raises a white flag, the morale says that you shouldn't shoot at him anymore. He has killed like a thousand or two people. But at that point, he's surrendering. You pick him up and he becomes a prisoner of war. And then from there, you can push forward to try him and making sure you know what is where he really stands and how you want to proceed with him. So what I am saying here is we must take a pause. I know emotions are running. I know there are sentiments running. But at the same time, we must also question ourselves and ask ourselves how did these people get here in the first place? What lapses on our parts occurred that made them become what they have become? And so we should know where exactly to point our fingers at a time like this. I need to do the government. Okay. So Mr. Buhari, this issue really is something I want us to take step by step because there's just a lot that is shrouded in mystery right now. I want us to maybe try this analogy if it will make us understand it better. When you go to universities and even out in the real world, there are lots of people who get peer pressured into courtism. They were from good homes. They are good people. They never wanted to be courtists, but they were forced, threatened or pressured into it. And these people might now go ahead and kill people who commit crimes. I want to understand where you're coming from. Are you then saying that the punishment for a crime of a courtes who had killed people and done evil should be different because he was forced into courtism or peer pressured into courtism from someone who from the get go was your quote and unquote bad boy who really wanted to be a courtes? Is that what we're saying? And when we look at it and compare it to the Buhari situation, are we also saying that people because they were forced, they were kidnapped, they were abducted from their homes and were forced into terrorism and have gone ahead to actually kill people and commit crimes? Then that sentence should be lower because they were forced into it. Please help me understand, Mr. Buhari. That's not what I'm saying. And it's very important for us to know that courtism that you described as it is in most Nigerian schools and this situation are two different things. These are people that were kidnapped, taken to camps, radicalized. I'm telling you, we have gotten stories from people who have returned that very clearly, you see how they were made to eat themselves first. Buhari, my question, I want you to understand my question. The question is about will. Buhari, the question is about will. You're saying that these people were kidnapped, so they never wanted to be part of Boko Haram in the first place, right? They never wanted to. So are you saying that because they never willed to be part of Boko Haram, even if they have committed crimes that are punishable by law, crimes like murder, then they should be pardoned? Is that what you're saying? If you heard me correctly, I never used in all of the talks that we've had in the last 15 minutes, I didn't use the word pardoned. I am saying we should be mindful. We should realize that as a people we have failed them and that we should have them tried. Like I said, try. I think we should have them tried. However, we should also realize that as much as emotions are running high, these people are victims of circumstances, not all of them, most of them, which is where I expect the agencies to do a thorough job to ensure that there are some people who in all honesty were picked, were stolen as a result of the failure of a government who was not able to be there to protect them. And that's what I'm saying. All right, Mr. Buhari, before we bring in our second guest, I think we have Nika Gule also joining us. There is a challenge that I also want to point out, and that is once again, the way that this has been explained. It seems like some level of arrogance from the Nigerian government with regards to the way they simply say that they're rehabilitating and pardoning former Bokoram terrorists. It doesn't in any way sit well with the Nigerian people and there's nobody really who has been able to bring up your angle from the Nigerian government to make people maybe understand it better. That's one. It's important, sorry to interrupt, but it's important that we should always remember. Yeah, just let me throw this in. How do you explain this or your narrative or your perspective to a victim's family, to a person who has lost eight family members who were brutally murdered, killed in their sleep by these same terrorists, regardless of how they got into the terrorist organization? But how do you explain this to the thousands of families who are currently living in IDP camps because they've lost all they have, including their loved ones, to these same terrorists? What would be the best way to say to them that these people who committed these crimes, regardless of how they got in, are being forgiven maybe or rehabilitated by the government? You know, in 2018, I was running for office of the president and I think that made some name for myself and I got invited to Rwanda by President Paul Kagame and one of the reasons where Paul Kagame invited me and some other young people across Africa was because he wanted to kind of mentor us and let us see, understand some of the concerns Africans are going through. And at that time, one of the places that he made us visit was the memorial ground in Kigali. And at that time, we saw mass graves of about 200 people here, 1,000 people there, and an institution that was designed by the government to see how they can reconcile the people. There were people who smashed people's children's heads on trees, on walls, and they were still alive and their families were still alive. And what they did was the families were made to interface with those people who actually committed those crimes and asked those people to ask for forgiveness and pleaded with them. Now, the government knew very well that if it wanted to lock people or kill people, it was going to kill nearly everybody in Rwanda. But at the same time, they knew that some people actually got involved in all of those crimes because they were foolishly radicalized to be part of those things. The point I'm making is, as a people, if we do not put closure to these things, we will never be able to forge ahead. There are some Boko Haram members that have escaped. The real ones have escaped. They're going to regroup. They're going to come back. What we're trying to do is to have a system that we design that will make some of these people resist any kind of future radicalization. We need to talk to our citizens and in all fairness to this situation, I can imagine what the people in IDP camps are going through. I can imagine what some women are going through after their husbands have been killed, their children have been maimed, and you are asking them to allow those guys to be forgiven. I'm not saying they should be forgiven. I'm saying they have to go through a process of radicalization so that we can see how much and how easily we can integrate them into the system because if we continue like this, it's going to be a vicious cycle. Let me remind us that one of the reasons why Boko Haram tried from the beginning was because the early Boko Haram members that were captured, what they did to them was they actually shot them in open light. At that time, they were killing people. They were still actually trying to create a stance for themselves. It's the same thing going on in the southeast. I believe that the southeasterners have got a reason. They have what you call it. There's something they're driving at. They want to express themselves. And I'm saying to all of forces, the only thing that we can do right now for the southeasterners is to stop and listen to them. And then we can now weigh options and tell them all the things that you have asked for. I'm not practicable. And these are the disadvantages. These are the disadvantages. I want you to look at them and reason with us. I am assuring you that once somebody is able to sit down with all sides of the divide, people will start thinking normally. But we cannot stay on one side and talk over the people and feel superior. It won't work. Yeah, absolutely. And there is the body language that we've always mentioned of the current administration. And some of these things that you've mentioned don't seem to be in existence with the current administration's body language. Communication, yes. And anybody can argue that victims of Boko Haram, thousands of them across the country, can also feel aggrieved that the people who killed my family have now been forgiven and we want to start our own terrorist organization. And they legitimately, you can now argue 10 years later that the government failed these people and that's the reason they're killing other people today. There's some sense in that argument. Absolutely. All right. Mr. Buhari, Mr. Buhari, just a minute. Let's bring in our second guest who's a public affairs analyst, Mr. Nika Gule. Mr. Agule, good morning. Thank you for joining us. Good morning. Sorry for the network, guys. This shows how we are screening Agule, you know. All right. I imagine it has seamless. We have this conversation. All right, Mr. Agule, let's go straight into it. The Arawa Consultative Forum's national chairman, Mr. Aljobe, has responded to the recent activities of the Nigerian Army, which is reintegrating terrorists into society, saying they have repented and have or would be go through a process of radicalization. So I'm going to read out a quote from Ogbe, Mr. Ogbe now. He said, is I am sorry enough to bring relief to Nigerians and the thousands of dead and the maimed? Ogbe also asked, what of those victims bombed in churches, in mosques, in schools and markets? What of all the men and women in uniform murdered by them? He says, who can counter thousands of widows and orphans they have created? He says, what do we do with them? Do we embrace them and trust them? We seriously doubt. How do you respond to this, Mr. Agule? I very much agree with the views of the SCF chairman and I totally align with his views. Before I go forward, let me say two things. The first thing is that it will take ISWAP to come and defeat Boko Haram. It's not a good testament on the performance of our armed forces. We have an armed forces made up of three services, backed up with a, they were fighting Boko Haram. So what I'm saying is that it has to take ISWAP to come and do the job for the performance of our armed forces. I mean, they've tried to protect us, but it doesn't sound well that it has to take a ragtag band of terrorists to come and defeat Boko Haram for us. The Nigerian government, the current Nigerian government has not shown fairness in dealing with issues of insecurity in the country. Seems we have challenges with the connection from Nica Gule. We would talk about reintegrating Boko Haram, the government forces and this with the situation ruthlessly. Are you with me? Yes. Yes. Hello. Go ahead, Mr. Agule. We're going to struggle for it. Go ahead. So what I'm saying is that the current Nigerian government is not showing that it is fair in dealing with insecurity across the nation. Whereas the likes of Boko Haram, they know us, are being treated with what will look like kid growth. Government ruthlessly deals with insecurity elsewhere in the country. I can give you an example. In Benwood state, earlier in the year, a group of bandits murdered security for the mother members of the Nigerian army. And the government, this present government, they went to concede a local government. They burned, they arrested those who were responsible. Even the governor of Benwood, they handed them over to the government for persecution. Those people, as we speak, are in detention. The same thing is happening in the east, where the ESA members are being tackled by the security. So in the Boko's case is there, we know what has happened there. Mr. Agule, it's unfortunate that we're struggling to hear from you. But let's bring in Mr. Boko Haram now to continue this conversation. Mr. Boko Haram, can you hear us? We can reconnect with Nica Gule and Clara. Yeah, I can hear you. Okay, so we read through audio-based statements and we understand where he's coming from, as well as your perspective, especially since you went ahead to Rwanda to visit the country. Rwanda had one of the worst cases of what you call the genocide, the Rwandan genocide. It was very terrible, a very dark time in the history of Rwanda. So I can also understand your perspective coming from there to see how it's not one of the most peaceful countries. You know, it has, you know, green developments and all of that. But how do I base last statements, you know, in this press release he put out, was that if Nigerians continue to accept this terrorist, that our action is punishable by, he calls it, by more insurrection and more anarchy. Do you disagree with that? Well, he has a point. At the same time, we must look at the situation in the Niger Delta. I listened to Gule just speak about the internet in Nigeria is the worst in the world, but it's not true. It happens anywhere. You can have internet connectivity. I also listen to him say things like people were handed over to the Nigerian government and they are still in detention. The truth of the matter is if they had been killed by now, Amnesty International would have come to say, why didn't you try there? Why didn't they go through the right processes? I think we must support ourselves as a people, as a government. We must actually stand with ourselves. The more we tear ourselves apart, the more nothing will hold. You know, I've weighed all of this from every angle and I think the biggest problem we have in our countries, our inability to communicate with the people. I think people just want, and is that that people are so lazy or people are too proud to speak very carefully and gently to the people that they have promised and sworn to protect and say, this is how I think we want to go about this and listen to what the polls from the people. Yes, we have issues around the country, but if you look at it critically, they didn't just start today. Boko Haram, for example, is going to close to 20 years now. And before now, I've been telling to everybody that wants to listen, the northern part of this country has never been peaceful. From the times when you've been traveling by public transport and you realize that your taxi driver is parking on the side of the road and you're asking why he's parking and he's telling you that he has not noticed any car come from the opposite direction in the last 40 minutes. And so you wait and then when you get to that position, you now see that they were actually robbed. So we've always had this bandit. The reason why they're now kidnapping people and taking them to the forest and demanding for ransom is because largely most of us are actually adopting the whole cashless policy system. And so there's no cash with us. They pick us up, they take us to the bushes. So it's important that we take a pause and say, what is the true plan? Because even if the administration is not there, the next one comes, the whole everything that you've seen is still going to be the same. And as far as I'm concerned, as much as the economy is not straightening out, as much as poverty is increasing, as much as inflation is increasing, you're still going to keep having these kinds of pockets of people crossing mayhem. And as much as you are unable to stop them, they grow, they blossom. I keep telling people, I said the situation of Boko Haram 10 years and now isn't the same anymore. In big cities around the country, churches were bombed, mosques were bombed, mommy markets in barracks were bombed. Places like the UN office in Abuja was bombed. Travelling from a town to another town could take you five, seven hours on a one hour journey simply because there were numerous checkpoints. We are making some progress. However, there are other challenges that are erupting and we must find what the root causes are to those challenges. And it still boils down to the family units. Nobody is talking to the family unit, especially in Northern Nigeria, where a lot of people who do not have money or who do not have resources to take care of a wife and a child are heading up going to marry four children. When we talk about this, everybody gets angry. But we need the backing, the strong backing from the system to say, yes, this kind of makes sense. And we're going to see how it's going to stop. So many issues and all boils down to the family unit system. That is the root cause of all of the things we're talking about. Besides the family, I'm at Buhari, religion, I believe has also played a huge role in some of all these things. And we've gotten to see that there's more people in those regions who are more attached to their religion than they are to humanity and they are to governance in any way. It's very dangerous for us to say, it's very dangerous for us to say religion, because when you not dissect the religion itself, you will not find all of those ideologies that these people have pushed forward. But I don't know if you would agree that those ideologies still come from a religious perspective, somehow, some way. It may not be general. Absolutely wrong. Absolutely wrong that some people are deciding to design the religion. It depends on the religion you're talking about. I don't know what religion you're talking about. But it depends on the religion you're talking about. Most of these people have actually decided to present it the way it will comfort them, which is why we must at every turn remind them that this is not the religion. What you are doing is selfish, it's for your own interest, and it's unacceptable. This is my point. This is my point. Yes, and I've said it earlier, that yes, it is not necessarily what the religion teaches, but the conversation still comes from a religious perspective. It is only turned in a totally different direction to suit what they are trying to achieve. So it's still coming somehow from religion. It may not be exactly what the religion teaches. It might be completely different from what the religion teaches, but it's still coming from a religious perspective. Now that's the point that I was trying to make. I mentioned earlier the body language of the government and something that you also said that doesn't seem to anybody who wants to, maybe because of pride, doesn't want to actually pull the Nigerian people together and have conversations with the Nigerian people to let them know the reasons for some of their decisions. The question I want to ask next is, when you take these decisions, look at the pictures that have been flashing on the screen. These are supposedly repentant terrorists drinking soft drinks and they have been given parts of groceries. When you make moves like that, it should anger a couple of certain amount of people. But if the government is not doing what it can to, first of all, of course, read those areas of poverty to change the narrative in those areas to fix some of the lack that exists in those areas. When you said earlier that the government has failed these people, is the government in any way showing that it is starting to be different with regards to governance in those areas? Well, I'm happy to an extent with the current governor of Boronau State. I was with him like three days ago and at that point, I posed this question to him and we did have a deep talk. This has been my views for a while now, but when I sat down and talked with him, I think it was a three-minute talk, but the truth of the matter is he's actually confused as well, just the same way I am confused and I'm sure many people are confused and we're thinking what is the best way to handle these kinds of situations because they probably were still real poor. Or should I say the people that have been in the IDP camps nearly eight, ten years, what measures are we adopted to see that we are actually even talking to them to see how they can think normally because there are some of them in the IDP camps, especially those around Boronau, who are saying, I'm suffering the IDP camp, I'm not eating properly, I'm being maltreated, the women have been raped in the IDP camps by some security personnel. In the IDP camps, there are people who have become godfathers who actually maltreat other people in the IDP camps. So when you look at those things, you now see that the system is still failing them while in the IDP camps. Some of them escaped from the IDP camps to find solace with the supposedly killers who have put them in that situation. There's so much that is going wrong. And I want us to point our fingers to the right quarters and say, what are you doing to fix those problems? Because if we do not do the right things, they're going to persist. All right, let's bring in Mr. Agule back into the conversation. Mr. Agule, welcome back. Yes, thank you. Thank you very much. Anna, Anna, can you hear me? Yes, please go ahead with your train of thought. Yes, I want to disagree totally with Mr. Buwari because he's from Nigeria and me. I'm a full-blooded Nigerian. I've been an analyst on post-TV for many occasions in the UK. The network is always steady. And in Nigeria, all the times I have come on the network is not steady. I don't allow it is not at all equal to be accepting mediocrity and saying it happens everywhere else in the world. Now, back to the point I was saying, Mr. Buwari is talking about the Japanese who were arrested from Koshisha have not been killed. If they have been killed, amnesty we're talking about. But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that here we're talking about giving amnesty or integrating Boko Haram terrorists. People are these people. But in Koshisha local government of Benoist, when banning their killed the Nigerian army personnel, this same government that is treating Boko Haram with kid gloves, went to Koshisha with power. They bought place. They bought their food. They bought their houses at 10 percent. And then they arrested the people who currently detention. Even the government of Benoist handed over traditional rulers to the military to be protected. We in the same country might not be in a country where some terrorists have been treated like kings. And then some be treated with brutal force. If we are not running a country like this, there will be no country. And I want Mr. Buwari to know about that. It is for that reason that I'm fully aligned with the statement by Mr. Aoudou, the ACF, that these Boko Haram terrorists were brought to justice. How about Mr. Agoule? Mr. Agoule, do you understand? Let me show to the guys that they were actually, they were actually taking into into terrorism without their own agreement. Yeah, so that's what I wanted to bring in. Do you understand Amit Buwari's point that some of these persons weren't necessarily or originally terrorists. They were kidnapped and forced into these actions. Do you agree that for people like that, they maybe should be treated different? So we have the case of the chief of the case. Because the chief of the case was taking away from the Asgore force without their own solutions. Any time they have paid, they escape. They escape from the terrorists and return home. If these people were taking conflicted by force, they had opportunities to return home. They had opportunities to give themselves up to the military. They didn't do that. So what Mr. Buwari said to happen in court, let them come to court. And they are definitely called to be that they were truly constricted without their own agreement into terrorism. All right, Mr. Agoule. Mr. Agoule, that's a good place to live it for now. Obviously, this is a conversation that we'll continue to have until we find and come to a place of understanding. Thank you very much, public affairs analyst Mr. Agoule for your time. Politician Mr. Amit Buwari, thank you too for joining us. Okay, so we'll take a break here to return to discuss the Petroleum Industry Bill. Our oil expert, Mr. Balazaka, is on standby.