 The Senate Committee on the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, bows to pressure and then permits INEC to passionately transmit election results electronically. And an aide to the former Senate President, Bukala Sareki, accuses President of what passing and insecurity. And this is Plus Politics, I am Mary Annicole. The Senate Committee on Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, has bowed to pressure from civil society organizations and other stakeholders who kicked against moves by the Senate to expunge the clause on electronic transmission of results from the Electoral Act. The Committee adjusted that section of the Bill to state that INEC may now passively transmit results of elections by electronic means where and when practicable. With this development, it means that the Bill, when passed, will empower INEC to transmit results electronically in some parts of the country. Well joining us to discuss this is Babashala Adegui, he is a Public Affairs Analyst. We also are being joined by Tunji Abdulamid. He is a Legal Practitioner and joining us live from Fort Hackett River State is Andy Akbotibe, who is a Social Reformer. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you very much. Okay so I'm going to start with the gentlemen here in the studio. Tunji, you're a lawyer so when they say that they are transmitting partially and in some parts of the country what exactly does that mean? I think as it is now if we are going by that we are creating a lacuna and a future crisis because when you say you are transmitting partially that means you are saying in some places you can do it manually in some places you can do it a what's it called by way of transmission and they are also saying that look they should give INEC the discretion to determine whether or not to do it that will also be a crisis as far as I'm concerned. If we are going by each transmission let's go by a transmission let us not make it either partially or full. Partially transmission will not help anybody. Why do you think that I mean when people hear that they caved they'd obviously be hoping that you know the full clause of you know full transmission would be you know we put you know we proposed in that bill but it seems like they decided to take that move of I'm just thinking to myself why do you think that they're doing this because I mean I know that you're not a member of the National Assembly but why do you think that they decided to take this pass are you saying that or are they saying that there are some parts of the country where if you do not do it manually and try to do it electronically might not work? That is the argument the argument is that look certain area the network may not be okay in certain area they don't even have network that's what that's the argument they are they are confessing those who are against a complete a full transmission every way they they was talking about if I look if you go to some part of the notes there is no network there is no way it can be done which I see as it cannot be okay as far as I'm concerned if you look at the this evening the next half of the rep they are even they even voted against it completely there was a rally session as at 5 30 today or so they have adjuncted tomorrow to to they've invited they've sent invitation to the INEC chairman and the NCC chairman to come and address them to be able to know where to go because apparently I watched the the the live program and then when the the memo was moved regarding the issue of transmission the you know the kind of what they will do A and A as far as I'm concerned the the the here were more than the the A the deputy speaker who was the the what's it called the the chairman of the part of the of the of that sitting banged the whatever and said the know the didn't have it somebody came up and to say look that that no there was rowdy thereafter and then the speaker came in he was there he was sitting at the at the what's it called yeah he wasn't he wasn't a presiding over presiding over the session so he was there he was he now kept thereafter I allowed this session it was agreed and the speaker came and said we are joining tomorrow at 10 o'clock to allow the INEC chairman and the NCC chairman to to address them because you know they they are also suggesting that look they must collaborate with the NCC if you want to go by even with that partial whatever I want to do they must collaborate and then we must do that to me I don't I don't think we should be debating whether or not we should transmit a a resort a electronically because to ensure fear and fear election there must be this must be done and this is the way to go everywhere anywhere in the world mana transmission is an old old old way of doing it and it allows for manipulation serious manipulation if there is a way to cope that manipulation when that is done the manipulation will be reduced and in fact the cost of election election we even go down because there won't be need for you to buy ballot bosses or whatever you are buying they all need to engage a person that will go and man the polling units and whatever they all need for you to pay allowances for people or police to even secure the the the bosses so in fact the the electoral commission offence try to be not whatever they are proposing may not even be necessary as far as I'm concerned they just and attend by some people to ensure that we continue in the pattern of manipulation of election and throw down a personal interest I don't see anything but this should be a national discourse and that's an interest because I listen to the president they're saying that we should we should we should lobby the Senate I'm going to come to that but but Vashala does does this mean that we're going forward or does this mean that we're running around in circles what exactly I mean these people are supposed to be our representatives and Nigerians have agitated could it be that maybe we did not pass the right message to them well as far as I'm concerned we are not we don't have serious leaders in this country we have been discussing about the electronic transmission for over 12 years now you are not mistaken and that means the government has not done anything in respect of the electronic transmission for over 12 years and also today we are still debating whether to put it in the INEC's electoral heart or not in fact what is stated what is stated in this section is not actually partial it's it states that INEC may partially so the may there underline is probability so it might happen it may not happen they are saying the INEC would determine exactly whether to whether to go by it or not not necessarily in any area there is network or whatever is INEC has that that discretion to go by it and let's talk about the credibility of INEC or the powers that INEC you know wields and and can we trust that INEC would be sincere would they be trustworthy to make these decisions in the best interest of Nigerians well he will please the pipe they take the throne that that has been the case with INEC since 1999 so personally I am not seeing INEC taking the decision without the order or whatever instruction from the presidency in court you get as far as I'm concerned we do not have an independent electoral body it is what they tell the independent electoral body to do is what it will do so INEC cannot single and let it decide that what may is a lacuna that is also not empowering them giving them some level of power to decide yeah it is empowering them but you have a limited power that what may means a lot but may partially is a lacuna that has been intentionally created to short people's mouth from saying that at least this is no longer manner we have said me let me make this one is the lacuna is a gap that is created for that for the purpose which is well known today and my question is what is that what why is it difficult for us to go for a let only transmission we have phones most people now have smart phones almost everywhere if you are if you are telling me there are some areas in this country that there is no network then the the government had failed the NCC had failed to do what is expected of them what do we have for the network where telephone network all around us that means the NCC has failed so if jam is conducted election exam and the results are now electronically conduction of the election examination electronically if you can go online check your results if mba can do a election if all this is perfect about this that so what is the problem with the national maybe those elections happen in abuja whether it's internet connection do you know why i'm less concerned national assembly has what we call voting ask me if they've ever made you so and that's that's that's what i want to that's what i want to go that's what i wanted to say that look they will like to create a situation whereby there will be room for manipulation that 14 at nation assembly the crisis we have today we will not arise if that e14 system is being adopted but they really will not do it because they want the decision i listen to you today i it's the a the the hey at the what they call the yeah yeah more than the nay but the the speaker the deputy speaker who was presiding over i don't say the name of it and i don't so easy when you give room or when you give discretion to people you are creating an opportunity for that person to maneuver so in other words when you say the internet may decide let's make it a mandatory for the internet to go by electronic transfer of a i did my transfer transfer of my what's equal to the uh photoscript seamless very easy and i was sitting down i did it in before 2019 election physically i submitted all my documents it did not see my card and today it didn't it took about 10 or so minutes and they they said they will get back to me i'll just follow up and that was it interesting let's talk about the lobbying part because the senate president had called out the people who have been criticizing and pointing fingers he said that and i'd like to quote him he said lobby the lawmakers don't blackmail the national assembly leadership what do you presume he meant and talking about lobbying again your lawyer is it something that is within our reach is this something that we normally practice in this part of the world and should we be waking up today to start that lobbying process yeah lobby is part of the system it's part of the democracy it's part of getting results and then in other words for example you know in a big can be submitted by anybody in the second you can submit a bill the members of the national assembly can submit myself can only as individual can submit a bill if i want the bill to pass i must really i must get people to support the bill to have to be able to see the reason why i want this that is what is meant by lobby lobby in a jail what they say is lobby in a jail is to to give money to people that that is the definition of general definition of that's one of the reasons why i asked what what lobbying is to us what is fine to say that yeah is that is to is to put pressure on the member of national assembly that this is a national as far this issue of lettering transfer i sit as a national uh issue which nobody should lobby anybody and in fact i don't have to lobby anybody because i have to represent who should come to me in my consistency to ask me this is what we want to this is what but in the but in the absence of your lawmaker doing that because maybe for some reason he doesn't feel the need to shouldn't it be our place to put pressure well the national assembly has caved today because they say that pressure has been put on them to cave if we doubled that effort if everybody was aware of the power that they had in terms of lobbying shouldn't couldn't we get more reactions yeah this is the right way to go you when you lobby more when you put pressure on people at national assembly or wherever you they had even the executive you get results you know the senior president was limited to that he had over nine or something a messages on his phone regarding this issue so he was he was he was he was the stop that look so that shows the interest people have in that particular so if you do this more put pressure not just talk put action into it and and put pressure on it we'll be able to get results the senate president also talks about the fact that those who are um on the case of the leadership of the national assembly rubble rousers and to quote him directly he said that they also you know do not have the best interest of Nigerians at heart so i'm asking you is he saying that criticizing calling our representatives calling them out and saying that they do not necessarily serve our interests is that worthy of being called a rubble rouser is he saying that it's not right for us to call out these people if we're dissatisfied well um is the senior president he knows them more than i do if i know enough the senators maybe i know four five six seven eight nine but he knows the one eight and eight senators in the national assembly and luckily it's part of the leadership of the national assembly in other words we must have been interacting with them well he's calling those of us Nigerians who are accusing members of the leadership of the national assembly of complicity rubble rousers so i'm wondering where does criticizing or calling out your representatives become rubble rousing well it is actually it is the reason is this calling out your national not calling out your representative is just like he said is a is a good way to go calling out your representatives a very good way to go but unfortunately the challenge i have there is this we can lobby anybody as he said we can map pressure on that person but when he gets there it's possible for that person to do something differently how so yeah because he's the one that's going to vote he's the one that will be approached he's the one that will take that decision but the question is when he's done there and we found out that we at this guy actually goes against what we tell him to do what is it what are we taking are we taking him out are we doing anything to punish him or discipline for for taking the wrong decision most of the time we just sit down and we all complain what is wrong with this man what is wrong and that would be the end so for me we Nigerians we have a lot of things to do and as as i've already been saying we are here to understand what leadership means what governance governance means and we are here to understand the responsibilities of the people and is that is that failure of formal informal education or lack of access to information what is that for me it has nothing to do about is it lack of interest on our part apart thing lack of interest then information too most people are have limited access to information and i won't blame them even the people in government or in power they are not ready to let people have that access to information because do you know once people have the access to information it's going to be a problem to them how many of these laws that have been passed that you and i have access to we know that they have been passed we know that the president has assented to one or two of them you get but how many of them do we have the way actually have access to how many of the gizet can we say okay has been put in the national assembly or across the across the law across the bookshop in the in the one idea and they have access to they don't want it because once you have access to it it's going to be a problem for them so it is our own duty it is our own responsibility to reach to have access to look for that those information and make use of it and that is why the lawyers are doing great you get it is it's their responsibility because if you are a lawyer and you don't have access to information then you are not a lawyer okay i i think i want to respectively disagree that the the statement by the president is unfortunate and is a is too harsh on nigerians you are a leader you are put in front to lead people when when we say you are a leader you as far as i'm i see them as a servant but because we see them as leader that's why they are behaving this way they see us when you ever when about the guys it's it's also ladies in the president it's common to all of them whenever the policy is brought up by any uh uh officer or government or whatever and you raise a point of order or you try to raise a precise or assess that uh they see you as a anti or they see you as a disrespectful or you are this and that they don't they don't they don't have that energy uh uh uh uh uh what's it called to accept that look we have done this thing wrongly or we need to correct this area or we need to look physically at this at this issue so as far as i'm concerned as a leader you don't use such language or languages on the other people they put you there they have the right to ask questions if they hear anything whether rightly or wrongly they have the right to say look these all were handy i hope it's not true or they say this year they have they are free to say it it is your duty to explain to them and give them reason why it's all tell them just wait don't jump the gun we are working on it but just calling them the uh uh whatever yeah blackmailers i think is a it's true as far as i'm concerned well aphenifera um pan death all of these people have called um you know on the senate is in fact they've kicked against this move of partial transmission in fact um the arabic consultancy forum also has said that um there's nothing wrong in lobbying senators and lawmakers um you know but but the truth is they're saying just as baba shella has said what happens when we are done lobbying them do they take the decisions in our favor and we're seeing this reaction because people do not people are not okay with you know partial transmission but then on the other hand i'm not here you know spoke concerning the senate saying that um the solution to the problem is for them to make laws that will make inek solely independent truly independent and so we would probably not be having this conversation but is that really within our reach looking at the nigeria that we occupy today can inek or any any other government agency that's that has the appendage uh the appendage independent you know to its name is there any way um that we can truly make our institution strong in today's nigeria in reality as far as i'm concerned our inek is not independent it is not it's not independent at all you see a situation whereby the appointment of members of the commission will be by the president and in nigeria once you appoint somebody to a position they see that person as the alpha and omega that is the one who will appeal so you want to do is bidding and that's how people say objected to the nomination of a uh madame laureta onoichi as a a strong member of the of of of the president cabinet and who has been defending the cabinet for long and you said deliberately say okay let me just put out to go and be the and you know the similar thing happened was in 2019 also i can't remember year they causing to is it causing or i can't remember one missus i madame i i mean now i know you also i can't i don't know the relationship again i mean now something is related to the president he was appointed today this is today that maybe he said i'm not able to show again but you see when we allow all this into happen uh this is what we're going to see you see most of them are afraid because they know that if this election is free and fair they may not win the election they they are there and they are they do they are they didn't do your bidding because they know you are you do not want to put them there they were there because of support of one baba or somebody or because they have money and today now they're also even proposing to increase the funding to to beyond the the reach of people who are not uh in other words the is without winning the election now because if i have five billion you have fifteen billion definitely you spend more money than me and you can win the election because it's not that i reduce the the cost of a election they are increasing the cost of election to make it more more elaborate for people with money so you see when we have people who are only interested in their in retaining office in becoming a winning election this is what you see because today if you see both of the votes uh the national assembly according to people there it is was in line of party line they put party interest beyond above the national interest and when you put party interest above national interest there's no way you will get progress down the progress because once once your party have an interest your desire will be to support your party to win the election and then whether it's right or wrong you follow what they're saying and that's what's happening today so you see we until we have people who have interest of the nation and we have free and free election whereby i can say look we brought it in not we brought you in we thought that for you not that somebody supported even the president the president could have an election for three uh for three uh on three occasions he didn't win election you know what because people who can win elections is not supporting there when you got the support of the people who can win election you won and then i was i was i'm only surprised whenever the president say i won election three times and i was a robbed it cannot be robbed because you all you did not compare do that in the because of those period even in in the south you did not compare in the in you only campaign in the in the north and you only got your vote from the north and that look cannot win election so you see we will show we should and those the allies should try as much as possible to ensure that look we see this as not their team but mashaAllah if if my interest if it serves my interest to keep a people in the dark if it serves my interest to make sure that this particular law doesn't pass why should i pass it i mean this is the question we're talking about the independence of inek we're talking about strong institutions the power for those things to happen lies with the national assembly and these people are politicians who don't necessarily represent the interest of their constituents could it also be and this is a rhetorical question that maybe because we didn't vote them into office so they do not feel the need to serve us well in 2019 election if i remember very right the electoral heart for 2019 there is something that has to do with electronic transmission in the electoral heart yes if i remember very well what we have was a this but this machine what it was the card reader and it was not even allowed it was there but it was it was a heated debate about yes it cannot be allowed to in that war because it doesn't have any effect even when we use it to verify your your card yes it was not it's not recognized by law so we are just using it that that now they want to legalize it now and that's that's the problem the electronic transmission was actually stated in the particular section of that no it was clearly stated that it it must be from a president of is i will take it to somewhere there was nothing like the transmission of it so i for me i think they were trying just trying to expunge it not or just to ensure that it's not even allowed at all you get you know people has been clamoring for this electronic transmission electronic voting for a very long time and the national assembly is taught within themselves if we allow this thing to go if we don't pass it into law now then this people is possible for them to have their way we don't know how far they are going to so that is why for me that's why i see that they are bringing it up normally yes just like you said they should have just kept quiet about it then everything will just be going on like that but now that they have said something about it now that they have said something about it then this is beginning they are putting the in four years or three years time when we have a new national assembly those ones that is if you vote wisely in the next election by choosing the right people in that position then maybe they can do it and look at it very well and another thing is at our power the NTC also has to do something too than a power that is the phc in we need more power in Nigeria but it's gone so the NTC too has responsibility the truth is if we have all this electronic transmission it's going to reduce a lot of costs but but all those things that you're stating are responsible our responsibilities of our leaders whether they are governors their presidents legislators if they had made sure that these things were available we probably they would not also have an opportunity to make this excuse like you said yeah of then they're not being connectivity in certain parts of the country or they're not being liked for this to happen but of course we've lived in this country for so many years using generators why can't we use it for our election but I think I mean a loss of money is going to be earmarked to INEC this year for conducting elections it should not be a problem as far as I'm concerned if it's transmission it should not be used by everybody transmission will not be by everybody to just by the INEC a secure network I believe for INEC for INEC and you can you can get the net of that effect you'll not be buying boxes again you'll not be printing a ballot paper by paper again so those money can be can be used to say okay there's best generator and then in case to provide unless we have Satuan or Satuan whatever they call it we can also improve on that as you look to ensure that why where is it I don't know I'm not in the space I'm not in the space okay before we wrap up the conversation middle belt forum um had talked off in regards of this whole you know I'm sure they also are reacting to the fact that this partial transmission doesn't work for them I'd like to quote them they're saying that lawmakers will answer to Nigerians if they fail to do Nigeria's bidding is this just talk is this can we really get behind this talk because Nigerians were very good at you know talking a good game but can we really get behind it how many of our lawmakers have we been able to recall have we been able to follow through to make sure that lawmakers who do not do the bidding of the people are are made to do so or shown the way out so really the middle belt forum talking tough is it anything that we can go by I don't go by talk this country again we just talk nothing will happen you see they if they decide to say look this is the way we are going and said to pass that a to nullify that a transmission of you see this transmission of a of results well all of the reason why the president refused to sign the electorate that's in 2019 so before the election it was a one of the reasons why the president refused to sign it was a because they were they were so the same law the same amendment is what they are trying to revive now to say look that's that's because they realize that people are after this election we are looking for free and free election nobody wants to short take short change anybody let's have a free and free election whereby if I'm contesting by lose election I would agree that look clearly I've been beating the situation whereby you score one here you go to some place where there's no photo at all you just bring you just study your own area that you have brought a 1000 foot you just go there and bring the 30 nobody will know but if it's look at the it was the system was adopted in a partially a dual election and no dual election and you see the free and free you see how the the transparency in it so it will ensure transparency it will ensure free and free and free election and then the issue of going to court will reduce because everybody will see that look this is clear and then there are people will not no no god say okay we don't want to work because you know if you don't work you may not get related because it don't be a situation whereby somebody will just go up and apply it somebody I can be in my house and 40 if it's a if you allow also allow electorate electorate 2014 that would not you know let's not dream too too much let's start with the basics we should be dreaming too much if you don't dream too much you won't you won't you won't you won't aim higher okay let's aim higher and do and do the we we often compare ourselves with the us when we when when it favors us they were when it was not favorable say do you know when the us has been doing their own we can also do you guys when they decided their own there was no they didn't find it this easy there was no there was no all this everything that we have 200 years of democracy under the belt they don't have all this thing that we have now today that makes life easy they don't have it so you can't compare ourselves with them in that regard we we are growing faster now because of the the world has been made simple the secretary has been there so we we should be able to not compare ourselves with where the old age when the us were doing their own manually on all those things where they're working in closing how do we determine how can we be certain that we can have fair credible elections in 2023 and in the future if we're still dilly-dallying and arguing even on tv having this conversation when our senators and our legislators are supposed to be making life easier for us is it going to ever be possible for us to have free fair credible elections in Nigeria what is your projection in a country where we are degressing instead of progressing so what do we expect i'm not expecting the 2020 election to be different from 2019 election that is just it today but but you expect that Nigeria will be better where with what i'm saying i'm not i'm not getting i'm not saying it i've not been convinced at all talk less of you know i've not been convinced that Nigeria will get better in the next two or three years or after 2023 because looking at what is on god now i'm not seeing the structure the infrastructure or whatever because okay i was reading newspaper yesterday or today that's 70 percent or 72 percent of our budget to service it to service that if we are so now we are using 70 percent of our budget to service that tell me what will happen in the next five ten years cannot pay the debt to that service just the interest on the on its not that itself that's a conversation on its own that's a conversation for another day uh but what should i do we um is a political analyst and tunji abdulameed is a legal practitioner thank you very much gentlemen for being part of the conversation thank you all right we'll take a short break thank you for staying with us when we return and aid to the former senate president bokala saraki alleges that the presidency is playing the blame game as regards and security stay tuned we'll be right back