 Warm welcome to Stockholm to this Think 2030 dialogue. We're here right in the middle of the center of the center of Stockholm, in this beautiful, actually quite original conference facility from the built in kind of typical Scandinavian 1940s modernist functional style that we enjoy very much. I hope you like this venue as well. So, ladies and gentlemen, distinguished guests, Excellencies, it's my privilege to open the Think 2030 dialogue of 23 which is associated with the Swedish presidency of the European Council. You should know the meeting now is being recorded and filmed and we have photographs going on, so be aware of that. We have a year, a time where we are in the European Union challenged by a very difficult range of forces that affect our path to sustainability. We have challenges in security, our geopolitical relations, we have flux in our approaches to innovation and competitiveness, high energy prices, inflation and cost of living that are threatening the social cohesion and threatening the momentum for the European transition to a more sustainable society. So Sweden has taken over this presidency in a very challenging time and a critical phase. During times of crisis, the EU has attempted now both during the pandemic and during the Ukraine war to keep momentum up for the European Green Deal and show that it is a viable strategy for European development also in the future. We think it's actually amazing that the European Green Deal is not only alive but still very much at the centre of the European project today. And today's conference will explore what this means in different dimensions but also looking forward into next year parliamentary elections, new commission, how can the European Green Deal continue in the next phase. And we will consider this from the perspective of the Swedish presidency but also from the future presidencies of Spain and Belgium. Think 2030 dialogue is a follow-up to think 2030 biannual conference that was held in France last year in Paris in July during the French presidency. Before that there's been conferences in Berlin and Brussels. We are based on, we can go to the next slide. The conference and the content is driven by something called the Think Sustainable Europe Network which is a network of European institutes and think tanks. And we are one of the founding members, SEI together with co-hosts today Institute of European Environmental Policy that you will meet shortly. It was founded in 2019 and we've grown from five founding members to today 15 members around the European Union. And we have assembled today both people from policy audiences around Europe from this network of institutes and think tanks and of course many interested colleagues and partners within business, science and civil society. And with that I'd like to say welcome again and I'd like particularly to welcome our co-hosts of today. So please come up to the stage. Anna Jöborn, Chief Executive Officer of MISTRA and Jöran von Südov, Director of CEPS Swedish Institute for European Policy Studies. Jöran Schülengschärner, Director General of FORMAS and Eero Irjokoskinen, Executive Director of IEP, Institute of European Environmental Policy. So we have together organized this conference and I'd like to thank you for your contributions. It's been a very wonderful process. Instead of having long boring opening speeches from all the co-hosts I thought we could have a little chat and a couple of questions to you all. If I start with you Anna. As leader of MISTRA you are a research funder that is tasked to promote sustainability transitions but also to promote competitiveness in Swedish business and Swedish industry. Where do you see areas where Sweden and EU can enhance competitiveness and promote ambitious sustainability action on climate and environment in the future? Mons, I think as you started introducing the conference I think the Green Deal is a good start because it's creating a platform for us to meet and I think it's not only a question about Sweden, it's a question about Europe and the rest of the world. So I think we really need to collaborate and that's why we are all here today and I think that we need to be able to think long term to handle these complex crisis, triple crisis or even more crisis at the same time. We need to be able to think long term and also act on the knowledge we already have and that's why it's so important that we are here now. We actually need to use our knowledge together. So I think that's really key. MISTRA is kind of a special thing in Sweden that we're very lucky to have. A foundation which is away from the government and is able to take long term funding positions that your board decides on. Normally you have a couple of calls per year and you find large programs that will hopefully last for a long time. So can I ask what's on the horizon coming up in the MISTRA think tank? It's actually always a question of course and I think the main point is that we always try to be brave. We try to be bold. We try to be ahead of the curve and at the moment we have two programs here in one of the sessions and that's MISTRA Geopolitics and we also have MISTRA Food Future. This is examples of programs right now in our portfolio and I think they actually match these criteria very well. At the moment we also look at, as most of you, of course to the energy transition and then we need a lot of raw materials. So at the moment we have a call on that and addressing the issues of environment 50 years ahead of us. Are we creating new problems by acting too fast? I mean we really need to handle these complex issues together so that's our call out right now. But in the future, since we are a foundation, that's why we are here. We want to listen to you. What are the big issues? What is the demand of new knowledge? We are looking for new ideas. That's right. To come to us and discuss what is the next call from MISTRA. Go see her in the break. Johan, Director General of FORMAS, quite large research funder and policy agency here. What do you see are the EU green policy challenges that you think need more research funding? I think you summarized it quite well in the beginning months when you did mention all the different challenges we have in terms of sustainability and how they obviously are interconnected. And as you say, we are considered quite often to be a funder more in the environmental sphere, the green areas. And I think that this exactly is one of the challenges that we have ahead of us where we need more research funding. The systems approach, really, of course, how do we connect the whole EU green transition that you mentioned is still driving a lot of the vision of the EU where we want to go with broader development, the broader development agenda. And that is also linked to the whole issue now of acceptance, the speed of implementation that everybody talks about, impact research, what actually works. How do we make sure that research results also really being communicated into society? I mean, this is SEIs, of course, CORE, the science policy. So that is one critical area. But I also would like to stress that we need also deep research, basic research. That's essential as well because we know that the impacts of the transition, you talked about it, we should not create new challenges, that will have impacts on a lot of different systems. We have to understand what the impacts will be on natural resources in Europe and elsewhere, and this is, of course, very critical right now in Sweden, but also in terms of policy and management, but also business models. We have business here and we see a rapid development of business models. I would argue that we also need more research there as well. And then the third area that I would like to stress that we work quite a lot with is the interacting governance levels. I mean, we talk a lot about the EU green deal, but at the end the implementation is quite local. And we see that from FORMAS as a critical area. How do we connect the local level management or policy, which really are at the municipality level, with the regional, national EU level, and also understand the global flows and the global level of governance. So these are three areas where I think we need much more research, both deep research, but also understanding impacts and interactions. That's good to hear. We had a network meeting yesterday. We talked a lot about the widening, we think, widening implementation gap. The European Union is full momentum with regulation, legislation, and the packages of the green deal. It's mind-blowing and probably overwhelming for the ministries about the implementation, what's going on on the ground, what's stopping action, what's driving action that we don't know enough. Thank you very much. Do you feel that research plays a role now in the Swedish presidency? I think it does. I mean, it's always difficult to exactly monitor and assess. I know that FORMAS and I know that other research funders are active in various processes linked to the presidency. I know you are very active. The conference is an example, both where I think we are directly invited. We have a lot of examples of that, so different processes, but also where we take the opportunity as a research community. It's not just waiting for us to be invited, but also to be proactive. What I hope, however, is that we also in Sweden are open to maybe learn from the European Union, from the governance processes that are driven through the green deal, how science can be informing policymaking. I think we in Sweden have a lot to learn from Europe as well, and as you said, it's an interesting example where we now are in all these crises where I sometimes can feel that sort of national level politics and policy is struggling to keep the long-term vision while we can see that the commission and EU has managed to do so through the crisis. And I think that this is partly based on a firm sort of scientific platform that they can do so. They can argue and demonstrate that this is the right way forward. So we can learn also, we shouldn't forget that from Europe as well. Thank you. It's interesting. Now going to Europe more broadly, of course, CEPs, Jöran that you're a director of, you're a research institute on European policy more broadly, not just on sustainability and so on. What are you focusing on that have sort of connections to the Green Deal or sustainability policies? Yeah. Well, first of all, thanks Mons for having us here as partners as well. It's a great privilege for us, being a small institute, primarily dealing with general issues of European affairs, European politics, but of course we also have a specialist in this area. But I would say that one reflection that connects a little bit to what you once said earlier, I think what we see is also the extent of both leadership and organization at the European level, which I think is quite important that the commission has provided in putting this big platform and also keeping up the momentum and pace of it. So that's one of the areas. Normally we study the institutional and political developments of the EU. The second part of that is that what I think is quite interesting in this broader field is the sort of the placement of different issues alongside each other. And we see that with the Green Deal or rather some of these horizontal takes on various policy domains and the new linkages. And right now we are focusing quite a bit on, let's say, the Green Industrial policies that we think are quite interesting how you mix. The second element of that kind of new mix is that the dimensions of external and internal policies are increasingly interlinked. So you see very much how so many of the Green policies but also how they impact on each other. So the most recent example would be, for instance, the European response to the Inflation and Reduction Act or indeed the geopolitical conditions in which Europe tries to respond. So I think these are a few strands, but I would also, a final point where I also connect a bit to you and I think it's quite important to see that Europe, while leadership is provided at the European level from Brussels, it's still what we have seen at least there are some heterogeneity within the EU. It's a union of 27. There's a precondition for the member states' capacity to actually do this. That really differs and that we have invested some time in recently. Yeah, yeah. Any thoughts around, of course, you are on the national news every week talking about... Fortunately not. Ukraine war, how is it affecting the current policy making during the Swedish presidency and connecting to environmental policies as you see it? Quite a bit, of course, and we know that generally speaking, crisis when they occur, they normally create the momentum to move forward in policy areas where it was previously a bit stuck. Security policies, of course, in defence, et cetera. But what's striking to me, and you mentioned it as well before, is that through the last couple of crises, the COVID pandemic and now the aftermath of the Russian invasion, actually the pace has been kept up when it comes to the green transition. And that's quite interesting as a general reflection on how the EU can operate also at various places simultaneously. Thank you, Jan. Just last turn to Eero. You recently took over as executive director of the coordinating group for our network, IEEP. Also, of course, the National Finland which I think is the best neighbour any country can wish for. Thank you. And you know, with your organisation, you're in Brussels and you're quite close to engaging with the commission. What do you see are the key challenges in kind of confronting the EU when we need to advance the European Green Deal this year? Are there things that are close to being finalised and wrapped up and ready to go? And what are the problems that we need more time to solve in your perspective? Well, I think first of all, thank you for inviting us here as well. I think Jöran rightly mentioned the impacts of the Ukraine war and I think that has been a catalyzer in a way in discussions both at member state level but also in Brussels. We all know that costs of living have increased in the member states. It has affected a general attitude towards the European Green Deal, which is a challenge at the moment. So I sincerely believe that we need to proceed in that direction but also make sure that the implementation gap that you mentioned most earlier is taken care of. But the main challenge is at the moment clearly these populist movements coming from Finland. We've actually had parliamentary elections there and you all know that the truefins gained their historic success and they will most probably join the government for the next four years, which might have an impact also on the Finnish attitude towards promoting your environmental issues at the European level. Obviously IEP will continue its efforts in providing new ideas how to find solutions to the most pressing problems, but it will have an impact if at the European level next year after the European elections we will have a similar counter reaction, let's say and thereby the representation, not only at the European Parliament but obviously also within the commission might change. So we will see, we definitely hope that the impetus to continue to promote the European Green Deal will not end with the current commission. We see that the next decade is the decisive one if we intend to achieve a low-carbon circular economy at European level but all this requires constant activities in that direction and that's what IEP is working for. Thank you, Eero. We will be able to enjoy listening to your remarks also at the end of today in your final remarks. So with that I'd like to ask that we give a hand to our co-hosts and that we can thank you very much. And I'd like now to hand over to our today's moderators Njendo and Rob my colleagues from SEI who will facilitate the coming session. Thank you Mons, thank you for that powerful conversation on navigating crisis in sustainability. My name is Njendo Mashua. I'm a communications officer at SEI and I have the one honor and privilege of introducing and welcoming Daniel Vestlian, the State Secretary to the Swedish Minister for Climate and Environment. He will be speaking to us about the agenda for the Swedish presidency of the Council of the EU and ways forward for sustainability and the informal meeting of the environment ministers in the EU so we are hoping he can give us a little snippet of what they discussed. Thank you. Let's hope so. Distinguished participants, dear colleagues, good morning. I am Daniel Vestlian, as you heard the State Secretary to our climate minister Romina Promokhtari. First I would want to thank you for inviting us and the minister to come here to speak today. I think the platform is an important arena for discussions between policymakers, research institute, business actors, think tanks and NGOs. I really value this opportunity for me to briefly discuss here in front of you the priorities and the work of the Swedish presidency so far and reflect on the outcomes of the informal ministerial meeting that we just held as we heard this week, Tuesday and Wednesday. So you will see me here today with the presidency hat on though I guess we can also discuss what the government has, the government's position but still I want to report a little bit from the presidency. I hear the theme of the conference today is navigating crisis through sustainability. Both the EU and the rest of the world have had to focus on crisis management for quite some time now. We had the euro zone crisis, the migration crisis and then we had the COVID-19 pandemic changed the lives for all of us and but we managed to get through it together. But just as COVID was almost coming to an end Russia invaded Ukraine and created a security crisis with historic proportions. We in the European Union haven't had to endure the same direct and tragic effects of the invasion as our Ukrainian friends have. Nevertheless, this is also our crisis. The war has forced us to deal with a broad range of consequences not the least skyrocketing energy prices and as we still struggle with general inflation. At the same time we're facing a triple planetary crisis. The issues of climate change, biodiversity loss and pollution have devastating effects on our environment and on our health. Without question our presidency takes place in a turbulent time. We are now more than half ways through the presidency as you know they are for six months we entered the presidency the first of January. I'm happy to say that we are on back on delivering on our four overarching priorities that is security, the green transition, competitiveness and the rule of law. The single most important issue for us obviously is supporting Ukraine in their defense against the Russian aggression. In only 12 months EU member states have managed to reach consensus on 10 sanction packages against Russia where we have united in unity. We have also made an historic agreement to jointly procure and provide Ukraine with ammunition. This is a great achievement and a testament to the union's strong support to Ukraine in these difficult times. Some people I guess among them Putin didn't think that Europe would stand united but we are and we are united and we will keep being united in supporting Ukraine. The aim of our presidency is to make the EU greener safer and freer. These matters are not isolated but deeply intertwined. If we accelerate the green transition we do not only reach our climate and environmental targets but we will also increase our security our competitiveness and our European autonomy. I said if we accelerate we have shown really good progress which I will come to but I would rather want to change that to when we accelerate the transition because there is still a need for further accelerating the work. This is why the green transition is one of Sweden's overarching presidency priorities and why we are committed to delivering on the objectives of the European Green Deal. Much work remains but we have already achieved a lot during these first three months. This may be a long list and if you get bored of listening to it just wave your hand and I will shorten it but just to mention what we have been working on of course one of our main priorities is to finalize the remaining files of the Fit for 55 package which as you know aim to ensure that the EU reduces its net emissions by at least 55% by 2030 as compared to 2005. A lot of progress was achieved already by the previous Czech presidency but we have managed to take important steps forward this spring. Since the beginning of March preliminary agreements have been reached on the energy efficiency directive sustainable maritime fuels alternative fuels infrastructure and on the renewable energy directive. In addition the presidency achieved a council mandate on the gas package which is a big step forward towards shifting away from natural gas to renewable and low carbon gases. The Fit for 55 package truly represents a landmark in the implementation of the EU's climate ambition and I want to repeat that this is really a landmark this is a great achievement of the European Union and its member states and institutions. Another milestone so far is that the environment ministers agreed on common position on the industrial emissions directive the 16th of March in the environmental council. This directive regulates pollutant emissions from industrial installations and from livestock farms. We have also made significant progress on other important acts of the Green Deal among them the natural restoration law the files of the zero pollution package the packaging and packaging waste regulation and the certification framework for carbon removals just to mention a few as I told you it was about to be a list. I would also like to say a few words about the international negotiations that are important to securing future sustainability and resilience both within Europe but also overseas. In these negotiations the EU must lead by example and ensure that we deliver on our targets. As concerns the climate the EU has consolidated its role as the global climate leader with the increased 2030 targets and the adoption of the fit for 55 package taking us to our 2030 target. We need to show that we all rally behind this ambition also in time of simultaneous crisis in Europe and I'm really proud to say that I think we have, we have been able to rally behind the need for action on climate despite the crisis we have experienced. The COP28 meeting in December will of course be important as it will be the first global stock take of the Paris Agreement. Another global priority is to stop the loss of biodiversity. Last December the world agreed on a historic package of measures to address the ongoing loss and restore ecosystems. The agreement, the Kanming Montreal Global Biodiversity Framework was reached there in December. Already at COP16 that's the COP of the Biodiversity Convention. Next year all parties need to report on how the framework is implemented and how action is actually taken on the ground. Now is the time for us to step up and to get to the implementation phase. And in a month time the world will gather in Paris again for a second meeting to negotiate the new internationally binding instrument to end plastic pollution. This is another worldwide agreement on a pressing environmental matter, this time plastics and plastics pollution which, where the aim is to reach a negotiated agreement in just two years, which is for those of you who have been involved in such negotiations a very short time. Anyway, second meeting will be in Paris now in May. The European Union is already a frontrunner in this field and has a responsibility of course to contribute to the negotiations with solutions. For the second half of our presidency our ambition is to keep progressing and to reach as far as possible on the important negotiations that still are ongoing and that the environmental ministers have on the table. With the right framework in place, the EU and its companies can deliver on the objectives of the green deal. It is my firm belief that the targets can only be achieved through a collaboration between member states, the European institutions and the private sector. After all, the change is performed by it happens through decisions at kitchen tables and in board rooms. Politics can support that by deciding things in Brussels and in Stockholm and the other capitals, but the change has to happen through individual decisions in households and in companies. That's where the actual reductions in emissions happen and that's where the changes take place that lead to improvements from the biodiversity. This brings me to my second point. I was asked to make some reflections from the informal ministerial meeting that took place here in Stockholm this week. To this meeting we did not only invite the environmental minister which is the standard procedure, but we also asked them to bring a business representative from a frontrunner company in terms of green transition. We spent two days reflecting and discussing competitive sustainability where we asked ourselves how we can build on the knowledge and innovation power between the European green frontrunners and what we can do as policymakers to reward and further stimulate businesses to contribute to fighting climate change, preserving and restoring biodiversity and reducing pollution while closing material loops. The discussions during the meetings were fruitful and interesting. We talked about firsthand experience of preconditions, bottlenecks, challenges, driving forces and effective models of collaboration between policymakers and businesses. Now it seems like I'm reading from a card and this was written in advance but I can assure you that I was there at the meeting and we wrote this after the meeting. Throughout the meeting I noted a sense of urgency and I will and a will to increase ambition. The input from companies and legislators focused mainly on creating economic incentives for circular materials and products, how to access to skills and knowledge is current bottleneck for especially innovation and that infrastructure is one of the key factors for the green transition and to increase the resilience of our societies. The invited delegates further raised that we need efficient permitting procedures and development of effective policies without lowering environmental standards. Collaboration and transparency of data is key along with the whole life cycle from manufacturers to recyclers and that public-private partnership can help realize this. I guess most of this was not unknown to the ministers and my fellow state secretaries that attended the meeting but still it was very important for us to hear this from the people that actually perform the change by their actions within their businesses and it was very interesting for us to get these real-life examples but also to get a chance to discuss how the solutions could be achieved. If we as policy makers enable for our businesses to accelerate the green transition by providing the right regulatory framework it will help strengthen Europe's competitiveness in the longer run. Early movers will have a competitive edge in periods of industrial and technological transition this we can see clearly all over Europe and maybe especially in Sweden where there are many examples of this. European companies that provide green solutions will be in high global demand and can help drive the transition towards the circular economy. As I started off here a while ago some 10 minutes ago Europe has focused on emergency measures for a long period of time but one put one fire out after the other but now is the time to build a stronger Europe with a green robust and future proof economy that can spur prosperity for future generations. We must return Europe to its position at the forefront and ensure that we don't lag behind our partners in competitiveness and productivity. I would claim that is a prerequisite for the green transition. The Swedish presidency has put the issue of long-term competitiveness on the top of the EU agenda since day one and I'm therefore very happy that the commission in mid-March delivered a strategy to boost competitiveness beyond 2030. This strategy addresses a wide range of areas and has a set of key performance indicators to measure the progress. This cannot be described as anything else than a breakthrough. Finally, we're back to discussing one of the reasons we have the European Union in the first place. Obviously peace is the fundament and then working together to increase European competitiveness is a very important part of this project that we haven't been talking about enough in recent years. To conclude, we cannot predict the future nor what challenges awaits us or what lies ahead of us but we can build a stronger, greener and more competitive Europe to help future generations meet the challenges that we can still not foresee. I'm looking forward to the discussions that are going to be held here today which I'm sure will provide us with valuable insights and perspectives for our common work ahead. With that, I want to thank you. Thank you very much, Daniel. Very succinct remarks. It would be unfair of me to release you without asking you this one question. You've talked about green transition specifically for the EU but how can we what is needed to ensure other parts of the world can also pursue sustainability efforts that are needed to gain access to the EU markets? Maybe this is the most important question of them all. We tend to, here in Europe we tend to have a European perspective. We think that the green transition in Europe is demanding and it sure is. We think that reaching the climate goals is tough and that we have to increase competitiveness to achieve that which is also true. But then again, when it comes to when you take a step back you can realize that Europe is probably the region in the world with the best chances of achieving the climate goals in time and where we have a chance of protecting nature preserving and restoring areas that have been destroyed previously. It may be America can also reach the climate goals. They are making a good progress. But sometimes we tend to forget the rest of the world in this discussion and obviously as we know, especially for climate we cannot solve the problem without everybody getting along. Reaching all the way to zero is difficult. It means that everybody everywhere in every country has to do everything. We cannot leave any fossil fuels any use of fossil fuels we have to leave it all in the ground so it means that we have to make this change everywhere. I think the main tool for the European Union to achieve this is through its trade agreements where we can through giving some carrots and putting up some requirements for entering deals we can we can explain our views and we can get people interested in following the same direction with the carrot of the trade agreement. And this has been quite productive in there are several examples of how this has been achieved and there has been a change in other countries. There are some recent examples the coalition of the trade ministers for climate reached in Davos where European Union Ecuador, Kenya and New Zealand launched this initiative to make trade a better tool for climate change or for mitigating climate change. I would also want to mention the extensive aid from the European Union which also has a strong climate focus and which is also connected to trade the aid for trade initiative which is intended to make developing countries more involved in global trade. We know that global trade makes all of us better off we live better lives when we collaborate with each other and trade is a perfect example of collaboration between between people. Finally, I think carbon border adjustments being set up by the European Union may help they may also lead to disagreements since they can be seen as customs. Now the really good effect that we already see from coming introduction of the carbon border adjustments where we put a price basically on carbon content of imported products in some categories cement, steel, electricity, fertilizers and so on we put a price when importing from parts of the world that do not have a price on carbon dioxide comparable to the European Union. The first thing that happens is that countries put up their own systems for pricing carbon which is obviously what the European Union wanted. It's better for other countries outside of the Union to tax carbon emissions themselves than to let the European Union tax them at the border. So I think that's already making an effect and I expect that to increase as we go along. Great, so incentivizing through trade. Yeah, in different ways and also through aid but most of all through trade I would say. That would be a shorter way to say what I asked. More efficient and I'm happy to hear my home country Kenya being mentioned in there so we're making good progress. Another round of applause for Daniel. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now I want to invite my Able co-moderator Rob to take us through the next session. Thank you very much thank you again to State Secretary Vestlian. I'm going to beg the patience of our online audience for a moment and we're going to do a little Swedish lesson for those in the room which I'm sure you weren't expecting. I understand some people are looking to get on to Wi-Fi and not sure how to do so. The Wi-Fi network is big yet Wi-Fi and here comes the Swedish lesson. The first word is konferens spelt in the Swedish way which means it starts with a K ends with an S and doesn't have an E on the end. So it's K and that's a capital K O N F E R M S Okay. Wonderful. Now it's really my great pleasure to invite a policy panel up on stage now and I think I can spy them over there in the corner. So why don't you come up and please my wonderful policy panel. Janes Pratocnik who is former commissioner and now the co-chair of the international resource panel Norbert Carilla who is senior advisor to the Slovakian president on the green transition and Claudia Hahn from the European Commission responsible for strategy. Claudia, you should be in the middle. Yeah, somewhere around here. These three look good and I'll put myself on this. It's okay. Thank you. Welcome all three of you to this policy panel. We've just been hearing from the state secretary who talked about and listed up a whole range of different crises recent but also he referred to a triple planetary crisis something a term actually that I've heard the UN secretary general use and he talks about of course the climate emergency talks about ecological degradation and he talks about the growing waves of pollution and I want to turn to you Claudia first of all and thinking about this these poly crises the word of the moment I'm just wondering how is the commission or how has the commission been trying to respond to this triple planetary crisis? With the European Green Deal so we can stop here. Yeah, I think the commission was very ambitious in 2019 in putting forward the European Green Deal it is sure that the overall context in 2018-19 was very it helped having the European Green Deal we had just left the financial crisis behind us Covid was not yet seen the economy the economy was recovering so it was really a period which was favorable to have long-term thinking instead of short-term emergencies the previous commission had already obviously worked with environment but it was still a strong focus on both circular economy and CO2 reduction still sometimes we forget for me my personal the moment where I thought okay now I've signed something is the plastic strategy I think it's the first time that the commission dared saying stop using this so it was those ten plastic items found on the European beaches and my personal impression was okay now we tell people what they are not allowed to do anymore we prohibit children from having balloons for their birthday parties it means we are getting serious and for me it was the first sign of getting to sufficiency I should not underestimate and I always tell it to my children the effect of the Fridays for future movements my children always tell me why nobody cares about it I can tell you I saw commissioners not the green ones I saw their faces when there was a climate march in Brussels on Rue de la Loire and it had an impact they had not expected this and the European elections obviously the green and another point the STGs were very high on the agenda in 2018 we don't speak so much about them in Europe at the moment but on 2018-19 they were very high on the agenda we had prepared the AIDS environment action program and it was full of systemic transition the European agency had really started to look into systemic transition not only environment policy all this made that in 2019 it was a green deal which is somehow an STG strategy not everything is covered it's not about inequalities the gender inequalities obviously there are things missing but it's a systemic approach to the change we need that's this reply to you this is a brilliant and I think it's useful to have our minds cast back to the period in 2018-19 when there was this possibilities you say to think long term I think that's worthwhile since we've been through so many crises in the meantime and a lot of firefighting has been undertaken I want to turn now to Norbert if I can because as part of the more recent set of firefighting emergency measures there's been an opportunity for member states to put together national recovery and resilience plans so again here we're talking about measures to actually deal with current crises the emergencies that need to be addressed now and Slovakia has put forward its own national recovery and resilience plan and it's really ambitious when it comes to its green investments Norbert can you tell us a little bit about the priorities that has been set by Slovakia and how you chose those priorities for this national recovery and resilience plan Thank you very much and thanks for having me here I'm happy to be here today and happy to contribute So coming to the main question and how we designed the national recovery and resilience plans it was of course in response to to make sure that the sustainability is very much embraced in the endeavour of the government so just for information we put aside roughly 43% out of the total envelope towards the green measures green also accompanied by strong reforms and around 20% to digital so being the sort of also even the front runner in terms of how much money we have allocated to the green policies and if I would be more specific coming from central Europe there's also very strong legacy of very inefficient building stocks and old houses so obviously very strong focus was on the retrofitting of houses and focusing on energy efficiency gains I think even almost half of this envelope was towards upgrading the buildings in wider sense and going more sustainably targeting the energy per se but wider elements another area since we are very industrialized country I think the second in Europe after the Czech Republic so we have also very high share of energy intensive industries so we put very solid envelope in modernizing the energy efficient industries decarbonizing and putting a framework to make them more competitive and third area is the area of clean transport Slovakia is automotive superpower producing the most cars in the world per capita by the way but we are still lagging behind on new types of transport that is very much electrified so lots of investments is coming to the charging stations and also upgrading the fleets and as well to the railways so I think these are the three main areas and in combination with digital I think green and digital is the headlines of our recovery plans so hopefully we can deliver on that and once we have also very robust legislative framework behind that I think we can be successful at the end of the day and these priorities they were the ones that matched the imperative that you were facing with the energy crisis the ones that really mattered to deal with that is that there no this is actually coming already now since very strong new chapter is being now put in place basically targeting the energy crisis so this is now based on of course the situation Slovakia as at the front line of war which is happening in Ukraine so we were severely hit by these circumstances and by these aggressions but now we are having as I said new chapter that is helping diversifying that is helping changing energy mix promoting renewables especially in the heating sector and making our economy more resilient also in terms of energy Thank you very much Norbert Janes There is a phrase that one should never let a crisis go to waste Do you think that we are letting this poly crisis go to waste or are we making the best use of it? Thank you Rob and first thanks for invitation actually I am absolutely convinced that we are not doing enough in a way we are not seriously dealing with the system transformation which is needed economic transformation and I tend to use sometimes the phrase if you want to protect the elephants in nature you first need to extinct the elephants in the room and we haven't yet even started with that to be honest because the major elephant in the room which we have is who is surpassing planetary boundaries who is overshooting the planetary boundaries consuming too much and actually it's not so much about the consumption itself it's the wastefulness of the economic model which delivers these human needs and that's where it's the problem so we have created an economic system in which it's simply economically attractive if you use more and more resources and destroy nature and this will not end up well and if we will not ask that question by the way also in the whole story of climate negotiations there is nothing about sufficiency which you mentioned or there is nothing about how to limit the consumption or how to limit the use of those resources over consumption which is naturally connected to high income countries so as long as we are of what if I give you an example as long as we are stuck to that in all those talks how to clean up the steel industry and it is extremely important to clean it up but not ask the question in the first place how much of that steel is actually used for underutilized cars for empty houses practically not used for meeting the needs then we are starting the whole economic story at the end so I think there are if you would allow me there are four fundamental shifts which I see necessary if we are actually serious to start talking about implementing the European Green Deal we would need to shift from considering humans being in function of economic success measured in a simplified measure of GDP to an economy which will be again in function of meeting human needs in the most resource-efficient way so that's the first thing which we need to do second we need to start looking at us humans not as external and the one who are actually managing the nature but as part of nature so destroying nature is simply destroying ourselves because we are part of nature third we need to move from production resource intensive based system to a creative system which will not reward those who are using more resources but rather those who are in a creative human needs by using less resources and finally we desperately need to change the governance system we are actually the first generation on this planet which is living in socio-ecological space of planetary scope and all those crisis you mentioned at the beginning actually the crisis of our generation so I don't know if you know how much was the population when the Club of Rome released the limits of growth it was 1972 3.8 billion now it's over 8 so this is 50 years if we think that the world is the same come on wake up so all the governance systems which we have created in that world are not there and fitting for purpose to answer the questions of this new world so basically there are only two avenues either we wake up and start cooperating trying to find answers together including the whole economic story and sustainability story my point is basically that the whole environmental transition it's actually the story about will we secure peace will we secure human normal human relations in the future it's not only environmental story those who understand it in that way are simply living in the world which is not existing so the world has changed remember that and accept that and we need to accommodate to that or the world will accommodate us because this is the second option which is not a good option thank you it's a reality check and for very clear broad that clear tasks ahead of us I want us to make sure we mark down that the word sufficiency has been mentioned by both Claudia and Janesh here and I think there's a conversation that we can come back to around contrasting sufficiency with competitiveness so let's put that in the back of our minds but I actually want to pick up the words you mentioned as well which is implementation which came up in our opening panel and the importance of the Green Deal also being about implementation and getting it done and making a real change and if I can turn to Claudia the Green Deal has the most incredibly ambitious set of goals about being net zero in terms of greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 decoupling resource use and economic growth there are social goals in there as well can you tell us a little bit about where the commission sees the Green Deal are we still on a conveyor belt of more proposals coming out or is it a matter of implementation if it's a matter of implementation what are the challenges to getting things done on the ground that you see Yes very good question I'm in digital environment and I think like my colleagues in digital climate, digital energy I'm not sure we even have time to think of all will this be implemented because we are so busy on delivering because he sees this window of a political opportunity and I think the commission president vice president they really want to use as long as the Green Deal is alive we don't know what come next one thing is sure the next mandate will be more complicated than this one so we continue to deliver the Swedish presidents and said they are very busy we are busy we are making many new very systemic transposals even in 2023 we will have a soil health law which has been tried for decades it has never worked there will be something on release on microplastics there's still a lot of ambitious proposals reach will come this year so perhaps we are not yet really thinking on how we make this happen but it's clearly that the more targets we set ourselves the more the implementation gap is increasing we have a commitment proceedings again several all member states in some areas and some of these infringement proceedings are for legislation which was adopted 20 years ago so we know that we need some time to digest and we know we need creative solutions you mentioned creativity I think creativity is needed everywhere it's not only the commission infringement proceedings which will make things happen so governance and the principle perhaps moving from setting rules to more market based instrument and there we come what you mentioned about the economic system the recovery and resilience plans are a new attempt to link targets and long term planning to commission funding we will certainly look to how to make better use of this one we have seen how it works in practice there are some calls from environmental community to have a governance and environmental governance like we have for climate governance there's absolutely no decision yet but we see that there are reflections at the same time there's also some risk of going into silos again if we have our own beautiful environmental governance what with integration into climate and agriculture so it's just we just start thinking about it and implementation also means so many delegated acts on the sustainable product initiative and there's just one thing I want to mention I'm fully on your side about the elephant in the room but I think something has changed the elephant is mentioned now in Brussels you are allowed to speak about planetary boundary reducing our absolute footprint it is the common wording now in the commission sufficiency is a bit far for me the problem is not anymore the mentioning the elephant but how quick we want to get the elephant out of the room so the pace for me is the main challenge thank you very much the elephant isn't invisible we're just trying to work out how big it is and whether we need to knock the wall out of the room before I go away I just wanted to ask you implementation gap you mentioned that as well are there particular barriers, systemic barriers or generic barriers that you see when it comes to implementation that you feel worth pointing out for our audience perhaps we should turn to the member states here I mean one particular barrier will be that the money is getting scarce administrative capacities are getting scarce we hear that the environmental authorities have less resources in the member states and this will not get better but I think the main obstacle is about the way our own economic system is still framed we still put too much money on destroying things and then we complain that we don't have enough money to to protect nature there is there is some room for coherence improvement now as I know you want to come in but we have a member states representation here and I wanted to ask you in that case do you see in terms of implementation particular challenges for Slovakia or more generally for the region yeah absolutely I mean as many others as you are busy with designing the laws we are of course overwhelmed by you know even taking care that everything is well understood and actually put in place so we can move ahead so of course there are many risks associated with implementation we were in the previous talk we were mentioning the recovery plan of course it was designed to actually provide and rebuild the economy after the Covid times and then the war came and all this energy crisis that's why a new chapter in resilience is coming but it's very hard to cope with all this many initiatives many legislation even for the smaller country like Slovakia it's very hard to even follow so there are certainly risks associated but I'm sure that once we prioritize I think we can be better of at the end but I can say that the scarcity also human scarcity financial scarcity is happening in certain areas and we need to make it work in a more sustainable and long term perspective. Do you think there's a danger that with this raft of legislative proposals and requirements on member states that you know some countries might get a bit left behind when it comes to implementation and actually making the change on the ground? Absolutely and we see it as now we are experiencing the world with the high inflation and rising living costs as we've heard you need to have also solid backing by citizens by companies by stakeholders and once people cannot really survive it's very hard to talk about the long term you know perspective and try to maneuver in that regard definitely we need to make sure and this is perhaps for the next phase perhaps also for post-2024 European Green Deal that we really focus on the social transition on the social cohesion on the social part of the things because people and companies can cope with that for longer. Slovakia has gone through an extraordinary transformation in many ways and you've outlined how that is continuing through the National Recovery and Resilience plan. Are there lessons that you feel Slovakia has learnt through over the last two decades or more about how to do transitions, how to cope with transformations that you think are worth sort of sharing for other countries? Yeah absolutely we have a real time experience coming from the Soviet or communist times and we have actually perceived and went through in the 90s through the collapse of the industry of the regime so the social impacts were very very harsh and of course we are learning from that and we are also trying to work with our neighbours within the eastern partnerships Balkans and other let's say surrounding countries to learn and set up the scene in a better way so we avoid those social negative social implications so we are working on that of course we cannot solve everything we need to also be coherent and cooperative and push as a block together in the regional terms but of course we are trying to pass our lessons learnt from this transformation and I see some similarity with now the carbonising strategies and going let's say also resource efficient around the system that we we can learn from there are certain similarities that's why I'm underscoring this social dimension that we really need to make sure that nobody is left behind Thank you Janusz, implementation what did you want to come in and tell us about that? No I wanted just to say that there is one fundamental thing which we need to understand on one hand what decides how we behave of course the rules and regulation but on the other hand it's actually the major distributive mechanism which we call market and market it's actually not sending us in the same direction as the regulation and market is telling us it makes more sense if you destroy more it makes more sense if you consume more so that's what market is telling us and basically we are constantly approaching consumer behave more responsibly and buy things which are more environmentally friendly but yeah you have to pay 30-40% more come on, they taught me in economic faculty that you are stupid if you act like that so you need to align those things as long as environment is simply not or environmental degradation it's simply not part of the cost structure we are where we are and then of course with all the efforts which regulatory bodies are trying to achieve they try to remedy and bring the public interest into the center but what they create it's a lot of confusion on the market and a lot of lobbying of business organization against the changes which they want to introduce which is logical so I think it's really really important that we start working on the market incentives and it would be in particularly important that finance ministers would start to understand what is their role their role is not only to keep the budget in balance but actually to tell producers and consumers with the tax structure with the levels what they want we consume more what they want that we consume more less to tax more resources to tax less labor to go into direction of that all the public money is used for public purposes so I've been in many governments including European commission where nobody was against that we would remove the state subsidies and use it not for environmentally harmful purposes but we have never done that why we are not doing that it's no brainer that we would need to close the tax havens because it's a escape room for rich companies and rich people and we don't do it you know it's so no brainer and with that we basically stabilize the economic system as it is and the interest as it is and with all the regulation if we would for example if I give you just one example about the refrigerator because by the way if we will not switch this off I will be like I'm sitting in the refrigerator here there's an extremely cold breeze coming from behind us three of us are freezing on stage it's like you would be from freezer talking to you about this so just imagine because human needs is of course cool and safe and healthy food it's not having a refrigerator at home but we currently have it so we own it so what is the interest of producer if we own the refrigerator the interest is selling us as many refrigerators because this is the base on which they create their profit correct even they are interested that it's hardly reputable or if it's reputable that it's cheaper if you buy a new one and we are many times doing that and if you would ask anybody who is a bit older between us 20 to 30 years was not exactly like that but imagine that you would switch the system to something which would be the producer of the refrigerator is the owner till the life span and you still have it at home that it doesn't change anything but you would pay for example 10 euros per month for cooling so what is the what's actually the consequence of that the consequence is that the refrigerator becomes the cost and actually you create the system in which economics are working in the direction to use less resources which is essential and you still have the same human needs met the same even easier because having a refrigerator at home and being the owner is just a problem we all know that so I think it's really those kind of shifts and you can extend it on whatever you wish with this kind of thinking because the core question we have to answer is how to meet human needs by using less energy and less resources so IRP which I'm co-chairing it's not against developing of well-being of course we are human humans will always develop their way but we are against using more natural resources for that because it is clearly shown that with the growing population and growing economic development this is in contradiction it will not end up well what you're describing is a very different business model for many of the companies that Daniel Vestlian has invited to Stockholm over the last few days it's an amazing idea Norbert can I just say one sentence because we have so many times mentioned competitiveness in this room today we look to the World Economic Forum 10 top 10 risks which were released in January this year if you look to 2 years span by the way they are based on the survey among the business makers if you look to 2 years it's a mixed back if you look to 10 years it's all green among 6 first 5 environmental there is no business success without taking that into consideration that's what business people are telling us so Norbert you mentioned the extraordinary world class vehicle manufacturing that is now in Slovakia and Janusz is sort of rather challenging the idea that everybody needs to own a car or own a refrigerator how do you think how would you go about persuading companies that their business model needs to change in order to make sure that we do decouple the economic growth from our resource use is it possible I mean everything could be possibly done but this is a really a master task but I think I would put it in other perspective I think perhaps tackling the same nail you know with all the climate and environmental legislation and also putting let's say circle economy also at the heart of the business case I think this is the way that we need to incentivize and drive them into the direction to be more let's say resource efficient to be focused on elements that do not require further exploitation of natural resources but rather to be more smart and efficient using the existing ones the same goes for other areas but this is just an example that perhaps what Janusz is talking is really a systemic change that perhaps is definitely required once the planet will be with 10 or even more billion people around but for the time being I think to make it work in a more effective way is to integrate environmental and most environmental sustainability concerns in their business models because none of them are doing that and I think there is still enough maneuvering making them more efficient in resource world energy world, materials world and innovation that is actually around those areas I want us to move on quickly actually now to look at the international dimension but I think there is a connection here I mean in a sense what we are trying to look for is if you like the spotify but model I mean I used to own loads of CDs but no one buys a CD anymore you can just simply have your subscription to music, your subscription to cooling your subscription to mobility so we are looking for these disruptive models do you have any examples of this actually being the case? you mentioned the example you actually don't know what you do with your CDs at home correct? there we go so you mentioned yourself a very good example that is how we go so the systems are possible but of course some are introduced by economic it's actually how to meet human need in a more simple way and if I can via the phone or whatever get the music and listen it and I just need a device for even that not always to listen to it of course it's easier and if it's easier it's easier also to introduce and it's by the way in this case also cheaper but it's a nice model which is telling you how some of the resource use is getting redundant I would not be so worried about even it is true that my point is actually that it's very important not to look to the interest of car industry but to look to the interest of consumer and mobility needs so we need to develop alternative ways of how to meet these needs in the most effective way and of course we will never switch from car to something else if we would not have a good alternative unfortunately reality looks like but we need to look through the mobility angle if we don't look through the mobility angle then we don't get the proper answers but I'm not worried also of the producer so much because you know the population you are in the country where the population is stable the population the world is growing and there will be definitely definitely the increasing need also for the car manufacturers production but the fact the problem is actually are you producing it in a competitive way or the others actually surpassing you so I'm not so much worried about those things but in the saturated world where we are living you said that the core question is how to get the others on board and it's very telling if you look to the climate talks the loss and damage is the major success but frankly loss and damage it's not limiting the warming for a single zero degree but what is with the fact that we have acknowledged the loss and damage we have actually acknowledged that we have more responsibility than the others and you have only two ways to acknowledge that responsibility one is either to look to your material and consumption footprints and to commit in those that you will lower them which would be the best way because with that you basically address the environmental pressures the other which is happening is just increasing the and that's what is currently happening in the talks that the low income countries are just increasing their needs and righties so often more and more loss and damage help but fixing you know taking painkillers to fix chronic diseases normally does not end up well so the advice is rather to start looking to the to the medicines for chronic diseases we do need to get the others on board and in particular I want to just ask a quick question to you all three of you which is does it matter internationally the sort of sustainability regulations green deal directives does that matter in terms of shifting the international agenda both in policies but also decisions made in the board room and at the kitchen table as Daniel Wesleyan said does it matter Norbert do you think definitely it does matter and of course Europe needs to be involved and engaged globally the situation and the debate you are having in Europe is very unique and it's not happening in other parts of the world or in other countries in that sophisticated manner and way that we need to cherish that and actually maybe one or two examples Europe used to be a front leader in the logical innovation for wind and solar but unfortunately we cannot scale up those innovations so I think there are other regions like China or the United States that are now surpassing European Union which is of course very unfortunate that's why we need to be present we need to be engaged and we need to use our strength and develop those strength and I see it in this industrial greening or an area for industrial innovations that perhaps Europe could be setting the best and front leaning examples not to lag behind so I think we definitely need we have a super capacity in policy and legislation making I think there is loads of inspiration coming from European Union and we need to make sure that we remain the front leader so I think it's a must for us We've been talking about the European Green Deal but is there any discussion within the commission as seeing the European Green Deal as having an influence on an international stage does it actually is it something that is an aim of the commission It is Green Deal is now in the European Green Deal we have a Green Deal diplomacy some of our development funds are linked to the Green Deal and we are seen as very active on the UN side the COP the plastics agreement now the water I also hear we have this policy with deforestation and we already heard about the carbon adjustment sometimes there is some reluctance from other countries who think it is also a way of promoting our own interests but I think you have more better view Janusz on the international side No I could actually say since I was sitting in two commissions European Green Deal was a miracle and it was a real vision and by the way the question which you are asking for today's session can you become number one exporter of sustainability and resilience it's totally wrong question we are underestimating our position and our impact and the real question actually is can we maintain that and can we do everything to implement it at home in our policies and also including the policies which are linked to our international relations so to keep this consistency among the policies really through that angle but don't underestimate the real question is really will we under the pressure of this current development which we have will we understand that even upgrading the European Green Deal it's actually the same time answering also the resilience questions and the stability questions which we are currently dealing in Europe with just very quickly and it's actually related to the current stage of European Green Deal and what I see a little bit missing at the moment that of course the focus and the shift is towards regulating the industry and energy sector and what I perhaps missing in that perspective is the focus on the food systems and the nexus agri, water and food nexus I think we are sort of losing the side and perhaps not investing enough attention towards those systems because we can also help in developing world and other countries actually in that regard perhaps we've got just a couple of minutes left I'm going to take two questions from the audience I can see an eager hand is already raised here at the front Alessia could you give the microphone please to this lady at the front thank you it's coming behind you so a nice short crisp question please I'm not sure about short and crisp but I think it needs to be said thank you so much I really want to pick up on this theme of today because I absolutely agree with the last speaker Janusz when you said it's not a question of can we we are and we have been I'm Indian Europe has been for decades and there's so much of the earlier conversation which was about well Europe needs to do this needs to do that actually we are now bearing the fruits of 30 years of proactive leadership on setting the standards for sustainability 25 years ago when I started working with Indian business to promote corporate responsibility in India there was no shortage of Indian entrepreneurs who were eager we have the capacity what we lacked was the leadership and the governance mechanisms so what I would like to hear from much more is the way in which we can prime governance readiness to address this issue and Claudia I loved your answer when you oppose the question about what has Europe's response been to the poly crisis and you said it was not blinking it was a might drop moment the answer is the European Green Deal because that is now so mainstreamed it doesn't require any lobbying by anybody to understand that this is the way in which we address the crisis of our times but governance institutions around the world are not of the type in the EU the EU is miraculously unique because you've got commission you've got parliamentary engagement and legitimization through the parliament you've got citizenship engagements and you've got the you mentioned it you've got the infringement mechanisms which make sure that delivery happens look at the anomaly I live in London very important you look at what happens when a country peels away from that architecture of governance we now have a major issue in the UK around sewage in surface water and this is now becoming an election issue why because we have let go of the water framework directive which was the rulemaking set of institutions and the law which governs water quality in the UK there is no infringement mechanisms the enforcement agencies are not working so let's get to the real issue which is good governance it was an agenda 20 years ago we've let go of it we've become defensive other parts of the world are becoming defensive let's just be confident about what we're good at and speak with respect to the rest of the world I would like to see it adopted my own country in India anyway I'm sorry I didn't want to take this you know take this long but just wanted to thank you for the work that you're all doing thank you you bring us back to one of Janesh's four key messages as well which was around governance so Janesh can you give us a very sort of brief answer as to how we begin to if you like not export the rules but rather export the model of governance that we have in the EU that enables these sorts of sustainability transitions to happen that's difficult to say in my own area I just know that because you mentioned for example that it's a global agreement on plastic and so on and the only thing which I don't agree with you about the plastic it's actually started in my mandate so the first legislation on plastics was adopted single use plastic back and it was the first legislation going against the internal market rules at that time which was great but really we would need something more on international level to deal with resource management we simply don't have it we have a convention on we have a convention on impacts we have zero practically conventions which are serious on drivers and pressures and the resource story it's pretty much in the essence of everything what is happening but I think if you look it from politically wise we all see that the western world it's quite seriously challenged and that we will have to look into the mirror also a bit thank you very much to my panel thank you very much for listening we're going to say goodbye to our online audience thank you very much for being with us and I would like to invite you to give a round of applause to this fantastic panel thank you