 Coming up on this edition of Able Den On Air, Washington County Mental Health Services, Mary Moulton, the Executive Director, all that and much more. Plus, May is Mental Health Month, all that and much more when Able Den On Air starts right now. Welcome to this edition of Able Den On Air, the one and only program that focuses on the needs, concerns, and achievements of the definitely able. I'm Lauren Seiler. I'm Irene Seiler. And on this edition of Able Den On Air, May is Mental Health Month. We would like to welcome Mary Moulton, Executive Director of Washington County Mental Health Services, former commissioner, a whole lot of things. Mom, mom, yeah. And she's the big cheese of Vermont. Welcome to Able Den On Air. Thank you so much, Lauren. Welcome to Big Cheese. Thank you. We're in the cheese capital of the world. Well, Wisconsin is the cheese capital. Well, I don't know. That's the variable. It's the dairy, the dairy. We won't go there. Yeah. Anyway, what is the missions and goals of Washington County Mental Health Services? Well, primarily Lawrence to serve. So to serve those in our community who are in need of mental health services, who are in need of services if they have a developmental disability, if they have a substance use disorder. Anyone who is having a difficulty in their life that feels as if they need some help for it. And that's our main message. There's a lot of trauma that people experience in their lives. And for example, what exactly do you mean? Since this is Mental Health Month, and we're gonna deal with a lot of different things, what is trauma and the mental health definition of it? So trauma is unique to the individual. So I would never tell you if you told me of something that was very sad or say you suffered some abuse in your life. I and you and it was traumatic to you. That is how you define it. And I would never tell you that wasn't traumatic. It's something that affects you so that it alters how sometimes you view life. And it's something you might need to seek support for over time and helps to form your thought process as you go forward. So a significantly hard thing that happens in life that causes us to have some physical or mental reaction that we have to work through. That can be the base of that can sometimes be a traumatic event, like say abuse as a child, for example. Or a post-traumatic stress disorder. Absolutely. For our best. Well, a trace center or more or something. Absolutely. Now May is Mental Health Month. Explain what that is and how Washington County Mental Health is working to help. Well, I think, you know, I'm really glad to know we have a Mental Health Awareness Month because Mental Health hasn't always been the thing we pay attention to most. We pay attention to our health. We think about whether hopefully we're eating right. How are we feeling? We're taking care of our heart. We're watching our blood pressure. We've got all those reminders. People don't always or often say to us, hey, how's your mental health? How are you feeling today? It's not a natural conversation. So it's good to bring that up because mental health is health. And we aren't just a body. We are a mind and a body and a spirit. And so we have to absolutely take care of all those parts of ourselves. So Mental Health Awareness is one way to be talking about that. And we're doing it by coming on your show, for example. Talking about it. Having people realize that if they're having any kind of difficulties, they should talk to a friend. Give us a call. Find out where they could get some help if they've been experiencing depression or anxiety. Now, the history of... What is some of the history of how you came into the field? Tell us a little bit about that. Sure. Well, Washington County Mental Health has been around longer than I have, which is good. I'm not that old. It's been around for 50 years. I've worked at Washington County for 28 years, and I started working as an emergency services screener on a mobile crisis team. And that's about a 24-7 hotline that we have available in our community for people to call anytime they might feel the need to reach out, ask a question about themselves or their family. And we have people that answer that line. I was a screener. That means that I answered the line. I gave people support. I worked to plug them into services, maybe some therapy, maybe seeing if they needed a case manager, someone who could help them with housing, perhaps, or a job, depending on how severe their needs were. And then getting a call where you might have to go out with a police officer. Someone might be, you know... There's been some scary stuff I've had yet. Sure, yeah. So wherever you go, you go to where you're called when your emergency services clinician. So it might be to a home. It might be to a police station. It might be to a nursing home, to talk to an elderly person who's having difficulty, to someone who's having suicidal thoughts. And it's always confidential. Always confidential. Yes, absolutely. Yep. The exchanges that happen in mental health have the same cloak of privacy as do health. Again, it is health. So, you know, exchanges that happen between therapists, clinicians, or anyone who works in Washington County mental health is private. Explain some of the programs. Well, do you, Washington County mental health runs a suicide prevention program or part of the program? Explain some of that within Washington County mental health. Well, certainly our 24-7 hotline is all about that. So, you know, from just maybe exploring a small problem to if you're feeling suicidal. Or if you have a friend who's feeling suicidal and you just wanna call and ask what you might do, you can do that. And so, the people that are on the other end of that line are trained clinicians who spend time exploring with you what might be happening in your life, how we could get you into some services, whether it's immediate, if you need to, you know, maybe go to an emergency room and be seen by a psychiatrist immediately. We work to link people in at the right time to the services that they need. So suicide prevention is something we really wanna work on because as I'm sure you know we have a, we actually have a high rate of suicide in the state of Vermont. And- The highest or? No, we are not highest, we are not highest. But we are among the highest. So in, you know, top 10 states and I for rates of suicide per 100,000. And so that's an area where we do need to work. Even though we have great access to mental health, I think what we have as a challenge is that I was speaking about which is to have people feel comfortable to come in and kind of lose that stigma to say, I'm having a hard time, you know, I need to come in and talk to someone and see what kind of help there is. We discussed this in past shows, we watched the county, but what is some of the stigma around people with mental illness or mental challenges? You know, people might be afraid of a person with a mental challenges, why or why not? So, you know, people who have serious mental illness, there is no evidence to show that those people are violent. There are people who are experiencing, say a crisis and have a mental illness and at that time they might have a time where they're escalated and their behavior might become violent, but that happens with anyone who's in a tough situation. So across the board, we wanna kind of diminish that notion. But, you know, I think the reason people don't come forward is just historically. We have not made it a normal thing to do that and we need to normalize mental health. It is a part of our health and I'm really happy to say that in Vermont, our medical community is seeing that. They're beginning to talk about how to incorporate mental health supports even in their doctor's offices. So, you know, we evolved as community mental health centers over time in Vermont when the state hospital emptied out and we began to develop services. What state hospital was that? So that was Vermont State Hospital and we really have been working on this since the 70s and we call it de-institutionalization. And so, you know, the idea is to have people living in their communities and, you know, being part of. In 1964, 63, 64, President Kennedy signed into law the Mental Retardation Mental Health Act, Mental Care Act to get more services or to have more services for people who are mentally retarded and or, you know, mentally or physically challenged. Explaining how that has changed over the years. Do we need to work on more stabilization, de-institutionalization, et cetera? So a lot has evolved since that time and, you know, including our language on that and we just did a 50 year history because Washington County Mental Health is 50 years old. Really showing graphically how that's changed and indeed we used the terminology as you just pointed out, Lawrence, mental retardation and we don't utilize that terminology anymore. We say a person has a developmental or an intellectual disability so that's one thing. If we look way back, we used terminology to describe people with mental illness that was what we would call derogatory these days, right? So we now, you know, speak of someone who has a mental health challenge or is experiencing a mental illness. Some people say labeled mentally ill. So, you know, we keep evolving as time goes on and our programs evolve. Back when that happened, money came to the communities and the idea was to empty, to bring people out of hospitals and Vermont did a little better than some. There was, well, yeah. A little. In New York, there was Willowbrook. Yes. There was Creedmore, Bellevue Hospital and others. Now, in terms of, and then we're gonna split questions. In terms of staff, right? Is there a high turnover with people in the mental health field or people who especially need certain states? Yes, certain states, no. Is there a high turnover with your agency? Why, and then the second part to this is why is it that sometimes people don't wanna work in the field of disabilities or special needs. Are they scared to? Well, you know, I think people who come into our field are really passionate. So, my staff, I am very fortunate at Washington County Mental Health. I'll put them in, I'll ask you a question. Yeah, no, it's a good question. And so there's wonderful passion. The pay doesn't equate to that in other areas that in healthcare, for example. So that's one reason that we have turnover to your question. Yes, we do. Our turnover has gotten better. The legislature in Vermont saw fit to help us last year with an increase that brought our staff up to $14 an hour and we were able to push the scale up a little bit. So with that, we went at Washington County, for example, from a 19% turnover rate, which is high if you talk about the private sector to a 16%. So one of the factors are dollars. I think that, you know, it's a real good question, you ask, because I don't think of, certainly people who come into work at Washington County Mental Health or other community mental health centers throughout the state know what the work is. So they come there knowing. Are they scared, though? I don't find that to be the case. There are certainly, I think what our job is to give proper training so that people know that folks that are having, if you're working with children in a school, for example, and we have that, that kids in schools act out, we know that. They do that in the public school system. They do that in our school system where we have a specialized school for a small group of kids. Oh, you do have a specialized school. Yeah, and we also have staff that work in all the schools in Washington County providing supports to kids. So, you know, our goal is to make sure they stay in their school system. And they can experience some kind of high episodes. You wanna ask a couple of questions? Go ahead. Anger management. Yeah. Someone has anger management. I have to work at that all the time now. Now, do people in the mental health, how does your program deal with that? Do they deal with that daily? For people who we're helping? Yeah, like with anger. Anger management. We have anger management. We have groups that assist people with anger management. There's a crossover, certainly, with corrections. Corrections might refer some folks to us with anger management. So it's generally a group management session that happens where you have peer supports and I just wanna give a shout out to peer supports across the board because that means that people with that experience. I mentor people and peer. Exactly. Exactly. So the anger management model that we have used at Washington County is that kind of support. You know, then you also have the opportunity to call out with each other. You know, behavior maybe. That wouldn't have the same effect if I happen to call out that behavior. So we certainly do offer that, Arlene, and also help in therapy one-on-one with people who are having a difficult time with their anger. I think someone got raped. Gufford, do you help with that? If a woman got raped? Yes. So that might start in an emergency room. And you know, the emergency room has specially trained staff for that through nursing and examination. And sometimes we are in... If Washington County has to be... Sometimes we're involved. Sometimes we're involved for some supports, you know, for a person who has been victimized by rape. Because a person with physical or mental challenges, if, for example, they were raped or sexually abused, it might hit them a little bit different than... Yeah, yeah. Well, we're all normal. And we're all, you know, we're normal people. We just might learn differently, but it might hit someone differently. Yes, because of trauma. That brings us right back to the trauma. So, you know, if they've had experience, if they've been traumatized earlier in life, perhaps, if they've been abused as a child, and then they experience another sexual assault, this is extremely difficult. And that is, in addition to the wonderful supports we have through our domestic violence support systems here in central Vermont, through Circle, for example, we might, though, because that emergency services team is available to the ER through the job I used to do, which was the screener. You know, we would be going out just to provide support. A screener does an assessment of a person who's having a mental health crisis. And that is a very wide range these days. So, the example we just talked about, which is, you know, just support knowing emotions that a person might go to and being able to help them to become and work through the moment to actually doing an assessment for someone who might be experiencing any kind of feeling to harm themselves or harm someone else. So, let's take a typical day, right? Your typical day. Yeah. You're the executive director. Knowing the fact that you've worked for 28 years, now there's pros and cons to a job. Bad work, best moments, worst moments. How can you change that within your position or so on? Well, you know, I think the best laid foundation I had was as a screener because I learned a skill set of working with people in really difficult times. So, whether you're working on a policy, as I might now, to working with someone who is feeling like they want to die and by suicide, you know, you're sitting and you're building a relationship. You want to work with them through that moment. You're building a skill set actually to help just work with people. And then you have to interface with other providers to try to get them the help that they need, which is another level. So, you know, I think the hardest times, certainly and most humbling times, are sitting with folks. I used to do sudden death notification and a really hard piece of work. I've worked in hospitals. So, that's one of the hardest pieces, I think, is to tell someone that kind of bad news and be with them and present in the moment. I have a deal with it, yeah. So, you actually had to, I apologize for interrupting you, you actually had to go to someone's house, not going to do it like a police officer does the same thing or with the police or with veterans, whatever, and notify a family member that's like, wow. So, or being at an accident scene. So, that kind of work I found humbles you and helps you put your feet on the ground. And so, while those were really hard moments, they were the greatest teaching moments and I never forget that. I never forget the work, the hard work every day that the people who work for our organization do in helping others. It really is service. It goes back to that mission and yes, we get paid for it. But, you know, I think- It's not all about the pays sometimes. It isn't. It's knowing at the end of the day that, you know, you're reminded how hard people's lives are sometimes and that you can be a part of maybe trying to help. When you can step into someone's shoes, example, someone doesn't know a person with mental illness or someone with autism or on the spectrum, step into that- That's right. Into their shoes and then get to know them. That's right. Yeah, yeah. And that's very hard for any of us to do and I have tremendous respect for people with those challenges every day. And so, you know, how do I translate that to what I do now and the good and the bad is- The good and the bad, the ugly. Is, you know, whether you're trying to fight for more dollars for the system, the community system that assists people the way that we do through outreach, whether it is working with our hospitals and medical now providers to bring more information on mental health to them and to try to integrate systems so that we're not paying more for our citizens of Vermont but that we're using services that are really, really professional services as we have at Washington County Mental Health and trying to bring those in more and integrate into healthcare. That's one of our great challenges. Last one, one question. Have you gone to high schools in case like teenagers need counseling? Yes, so we have a whole children's division that works with kids in high schools. You know, certainly for myself, I've gone into classrooms and talked to kids, young teenagers about some of their struggles, you know, and educating about mental health. We have a course called Mental Health First Aid which you might talk about, so we talk about first aid. We think about physical care. Again, we have a mental health first aid course. Yeah, if someone wants to take that course. Yes, they can do so. We have it available. Yes, can you explain a little bit about it? We give it to groups. There's one called Youth Mental Health First Aid and so that might be teaching children or teaching teachers, for example, about signs that they might be looking for that someone's having a mental health issue, an emotional issue. Would you teach advocates? How do we respond to that? We would absolutely teach advocates. We teach groups of lawyers. We teach, you know, people from our community, just generally people who come to us or call us because they've got a group from a church that wants to learn more. So we do Youth Mental Health First Aid and Adult Mental Health First Aid. Is it a free course? Free course. In some cases, we ask for the provision of the materials to be purchased, which is just partial book charges. But other than that, we provide that service. Okay, now how long has that been going on? We've been doing that now in Vermont for probably the past five years and at Washington County for the past three or four. And in Vermont, we have trained over 2,000 people in Mental Health First Aid. Do you get a certificate at the end? Yes, you get your certificate at the end and it's an eight hour course currently. So we're even able to split it up because it's hard sometimes for someone to come together for an eight hour day, so we'll do a four and four, you know? Now, Washington County Mental Health has been around for a long time. Yes. Let's go back. Back in the 1970s, was it evolving? Yes. Explain past, some present, some future. Who created Washington County Mental Health? Yeah, so again, I think it was, you know, as you talked about those acts that came about, there was a move and that is that late 60s when Washington County Mental Health evolved. It had a different name at the time, Winooski, something. I can't quite even remember what it was, but shortly thereafter changed its name. So it started with helping people to come out of the state hospital over in Waterbury. There were over a thousand people there hiring actually through a grant that was creating the emergency services team, bringing people on out, creating case managers, then moving along toward adult services, giving therapy, so we hired therapists. The progression came over time and Roger Strauss was our first executive director. We've only had three executive directors at Washington County and the third one. And Paul Dupre. Roger Strauss, Paul Dupre. I've heard of Paul Dupre. Yeah, and then myself, I'm on my fifth year. So. How many years are you allowed to be? There's until you're retired or they throw you out, but you know, both Roger and Paul worked through a number of years until they decided upon retirement. They were excellent executive directors who continued to grow through the need. And I think that's what we do at Washington County is recognize where the gaps in our community are and then really try to work to fight for dollars so that we can develop the programming, whether it be for adults, children, families, our developmental services division came along back then too. We closed Brandon Training School. In the early 90s, we took the last person out of the Brandon Training School. Was it similar to a Willowbrook type of? It was specifically for people with developmental disabilities. So. Now was it like atrocities and different things? You know, I mean through the years, there were all of, I'm sure, those reports, but no, Brandon Training School, you know, again, we have evolved and I'm sure there were practices back then as there were at the state hospital, which we would call atrocities these days. There were certainly episodes reported of abuse, but there were- I'm not asking a bad question. Right, no, there were those thought practices that would be helpful, like putting people into ice baths. We would never think to do such a thing these days. But that, so that, you know, these were closed institutions. Really what we recognized is the need to get people into our community and have them have more healthy, holistic, integrated lives. And on the developmental- To be more independent. Yes, for people with developmental disabilities, I think, you know, really working very hard in Vermont, we have people who are working, you know, in our communities, they have jobs, not in a sheltered workshop. They have jobs in our businesses, in our community. And that is an advancement that actually we received an international award for in Vienna two years ago as a state in the state of Vermont, for being so progressive. The country of Vienna. The state, yes, Austria. Austria. Now, how, what are some future goals that Washington County Mental Health might have, or is having, because I understand that you're writing policies, so explain some of that. Well, you know, our future goals are to continue to find the needs in our community. I just had a wonderful panel we did last night in Plainfield, and I think it's to help our communities become more trauma-informed. It's to help people in our communities who feel like they're outside of the community to be more included. And the other part of that is for us to, again, integrate our services into healthcare services so that people see that mental health is actually health and taking care of oneself. So, you know, we've done this approach for years. We've done case management. We've done care coordination. These are things that now our healthcare partners are becoming much more aware of and that expenditures could be reduced. So I deal a lot now with the kind of the money side of the house, that's, I change that skill set from the street to, okay, how do I convince people to, you know, see the best practices and can we get paid for those? So my job is to continue to see that we might be able to grow our services as needed, integrating with health and community. And that's kind of the crux of it right now. Last question. During mental health awareness, what do they do it, explain, like, when how people, different mental health issues? So different, you know, we have 10 agencies throughout the state that do this work and people, you know, they recognize mental health awareness by getting out in the community, making special efforts to talk about it more. One thing we are doing this month, and I had one of these sessions last night, I was just mentioning out in Plainfield. We had a small group that gathered and we held forums last year in the community to talk about mental health crisis. What does that mean? How are our communities doing? What do we do to respond to that? That's raising awareness and just talking together. So we had a great group out there last night that gathered at the town hall. There was a nice circle of people. And we talked about, you know, the needs in school systems, getting upstream a little bit so that we can talk about healthy lives and including mental health and how we treat each other and how we stay healthy and do that before we get older and we've created bad habits. You know, making sure we have hobbies, making sure we have things that are healthy and of interest, making sure we explore whether we're happy. What is it that creates happiness? And, you know, that's the crux of our mental health. You know, some people think that sounds kind of fru fru, you know? But it really, it's at the core of us to look and see. Or if someone needs, for example, if someone needs, they call it, oh, I'm taking a mental health day. A mental health day. For myself. Yeah, that's great. Or for us, you know. Yeah, so, you know, mental health awareness day, I encourage everybody to take a mental health day. Think about where your life is, what's giving you some pleasure, how you give yourself some positive thing that's happening in your day, recognize it. Even if life is really, really hard, what is one thing today that you could do to go out, even if it's taking a walk down the sidewalk and feeling this kind of chilly air outside that we're having today, but a beautiful sunny day to say, this feels invigorating, this feels good, I'm doing this for me. Taking a deep breath with it and just being aware. That raises our spirits, and that's why I talk about mind, body, spirit, because it's how it raises our spirits to keep us more emotionally healthy. And physically, now. It pays off, otherwise your physical health goes into the dumper. Do you guys do anything, well, we're talking about mental health. Yeah. Do you have any physical exercise programs? We do. Or do you do anything for the physical body besides the mental health? Absolutely, absolutely. We have a place in Berry at 23 Summer Street, we call WellSpace. And that's a place where we invite people in, we have exercise there, we have classes, we have yoga classes. Cooking classes. Cooking classes, learning to have better nutrition. We do mindfulness if people find that that would be helpful. We also, in different programs, we do have wellness segments, so we help people if they'd like to track their blood pressure, if they'd like to stop smoking. And they'd like to. Well, you have a cessation program. Absolutely, we have tobacco cessation program throughout our entire agency, so. Now, from what I understand, that tobacco cessation program is only for clients of. Washington County. Washington County Mental Health. And staff. And staff. So explain a little bit about the tobacco cessation program. We've had that, we've been working on that for several years. We have a clinician in one of our programs, Bill Faggenauer, who works on that with one of our nurses, Rachel LaValley. And we do a screen with a person to find out what their habits are. And then we start plugging in supports, which are group supports, as well as individual supports. We also make sure that people have tools so that when they're trying to, we give them tools like if they're trying to give things up, do they wanna suck on a lifesaver? What are those things that would be helpful with their habits? Recording those. And then celebrating when you have a success. And that's that part around recognition that you've done, even if you go back to smoking. So we have people who've quit smoking, people who have some significant mental health issues they're dealing with every day. Because a lot of buildings are now smoke-free. Ours are all smoke-free, yeah. So, but say you have a lot of struggles emotionally and you're a smoker. It's really hard to give up a habit. So, yeah, people wanna do it. They know it's better for their health. So they try and then they go back, but that's okay with us. So you go back to smoking, you're gonna come back to the group, we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna try to, you know, if you're ready to stop again we're gonna support that and- Do you have an AA program? Back and forth. Alcoholics Anonymous or 12 Step type of thing? We don't sponsor that. AA is AA. So we support- Okay, I apologize. No, we support people going. And we absolutely let them know about that resource because it's so important. We also let them know about our recovery centers, the turning point over in Barrie. And we want, what I've learned through time, I think, is that it's different strokes for different folks and what might be helpful to you, Lawrence, might not be for me- One resource, yeah, exactly. Right, so I might really need talk therapy and talking to a therapist for 50 minutes might be helpful to me. For you it might be more helpful to do that yoga session and do some mindfulness. And what we find in talking to people- Alternatives to medication. Yep, yes, and those do assist with alternatives. So what we find is in asking people after all those things what helps, they let us know. Some might say, wow, the most successful thing to help me cope and to help me reduce my anxiety was mindfulness. Someone else might say, you know what's helped me for a long time over the last three months has been that I could speak to my therapist. Some might say, I did both those things at Washington County Mental Health. That's what helped me get to success so that I don't need that support anymore. So, you know, our mission is also to help people move on so that they can not need us. That's great. We're gonna ask you a couple more questions. Real quick, alternatives to medication. Yes. You know, it's one thing for a pharmacist to give you medication. Well, you mentioned some of them. Are you guys expanding on more alternatives to medication? Certainly, you know, we listen to what the people who come in to see us need. And we have psychiatry. Our doctors are there to prescribe medications to assist, but we have therapy, which we often, when we see a person come in, the first thought is not medication. The first thought might be you're having a traumatic event. Let's see if we can get you into this service to help first. But that medication piece is there, and for some people is essential, they feel to their well-being, so others would not find it helpful, or would be worried about side effects. So, you know, we just talk. It's a one-on-one experience. The other thing that we're gonna begin to examine is open dialogue. You know, that's another way for people who work for us to be thinking about talking with people who have mental illness and being accepting of where they are with their mind, which is really important. So, there are people who don't accept people. Absolutely. Sometimes with mental illness. And sometimes in accepting, it can help a person to accept their experience a little bit better. So, it's a combination. Again, different strokes for different folks. What are some misconceptions around people with mental illness or physical challenges that might be when they first meet them, in your opinion? That people with severe mental illness aren't smart. You know, that's a misconception. Absolutely incorrect. Or that they don't graduate college, which isn't true. Right, absolutely untrue. So, but I think whether we're talking and that people with developmental disabilities are limited and can't grow any further. That is totally untrue. We're watching people just absolutely blossom as we give them opportunity. So, I think one thing we need to remember is that in the course of a mental illness, people can work toward recovery. And we talk about recovery. Didn't used to. That's another one of those evolutionary things. You know, we used to put people in hospitals and that's where we thought they should be. We want to be very careful as we look at the problem of emergency room backups and the need for hospital beds that we don't overshoot, that we don't build too many hospital beds. That we don't build too many hospital beds. That we make sure that we continue to have the money within our communities to support the community services. This is the upstream piece. If we can do more here, we don't need higher levels of care. Yet, we might need a few more beds, but let's not build so many that we find ourselves back to a self-fulfilling, let's keep more beds full because we have. And another misconception, if I can put it, just because your relatives have had a mental challenge. That's a mean you're gonna. Exactly. So, explain a little bit about that misconception. So, we talk about mental illness now and we consider it a physiological, a physical illness that's working within the brain. And so, that's our challenge and that's why doctors think about medication. But that's also why alternative ideas come about because there's a certain way that we can work our minds and our bodies. We know we have great strengths we sometimes don't tap into. So, the mental illness piece is we talk about recovery and for people with developmental disabilities, we talk about, in both cases, we talk about self-determination. We shouldn't think that people cannot achieve because they certainly can and they do. And it's remarkable. And we simply need to give opportunity rather than making assumptions. Making assumptions is a bad thing. That's a mistake. Why is it a mistake really quick before we ask? Yeah, it's a mistake because we're forgetting that whole person. And we're forgetting that if we give children an opportunity to achieve, they will. If we give adults the opportunity, they will. The problem often is that our community and our society may not have, people may not have the money to be able to access some of the things that would give them more opportunity. So as a community, we're challenged more and more with expanding beyond ourselves to include others. Well, I would like to thank you for joining us on this edition of Abledon On Air. Thank you, Lawrence. I really appreciate it. For more information on Washington County Mental Health, you can log on to their website, www.wcmhs.org, or you can call their emergency number if you have an emergency. You can call their emergency number at 802-229-0591. That's 229-0591. This has been Abledon On Air. I'm Lawrence Seiler. I'm Lawrence Seiler. See you next time.