 Everyone, my name is duration. I'm here as the host of think take what you show called finding our feature. I'm here every other Wednesday from one to one 30 and this show is called finding our future because we talk about issues that matter to young people or anyone who cares about the future. And we cover a lot of issues from sustainability to spirituality, many things. So today I'm really excited for our guest, my Issa there, and I met my Issa through her role as a yoga teacher at surfighters beach cleanups. And we got into a really great conversation about divine masculine and divine feminine energies and kind of a lot of things around gender in the modern world. So thank you for being here, my Issa. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be on think tech. Yes, awesome. So I guess just to start, I love if you introduce yourself and why you're passionate about this. Okay. Well, my name is my Issa. I was born and raised on the east side of Oahu. And I got really passionate about this because I worked on the waterfront on the waterfront driving ships for Matson and different container ships. I worked for no region cruise lines, just wasn't a really male dominated environment. And so I took on a lot of male dominated trades to get to be successful in that environment. And kind of in my late 20s realized that it really was rejecting the feminine through doing my own work. And so I got really passionate about understanding kind of in the discovery of what is the feminine and what is the masculine. Right. That's interesting. I didn't know that about your history. Well, I think the way that I relate to this topic and that many people have maybe heard about it already is maybe in the form of toxic masculine and I think that's kind of freeze and topic that's been thrown around a lot, with the rise of awareness around male dominant cultures and what we've grown up within that as women and as men and as boys and girls as young people too. So can you kind of explain what toxic masculinity is like how you would define that and what kind of the other side of that is. Yeah, so I think that toxic masculinity is when the masculine gets really out of balance. And I want to be really, really specific that it's not just to gender, you know, sometimes women can take on a lot of masculine traits and become oppressive. And that's when I what I see most with the wounded masculine or out of balance masculine is that oppression and control become very important. Yeah, that's really, that's really important to distinguish that it's not about being a man or being a woman but it's just like an energetic definition of these two things. So when it comes to masculine and feminine, what do you see in terms of like where our culture has been and where it currently is in terms of stepping into that or being disconnected from that. Yeah, that's a great question for what's going on today. I think that where there's like you said a lot of awakening and that awareness. And so in moving forward, it's really going to take us to understand what the behaviors are on the day to day that are being rewarded in patriarchy. Right. And a lot of the masculine traits are being rewarded in this society that we live in. And I think now because of different things that have happened to me to movement and all these sorts of things, the feminine is starting to rise and also be valued. And that's going to be really important in I think what we the skills that we need for things like sustainability and caring about those issues. Yeah, exactly. And I wonder if do you feel there's a what do you feel is the opportunity in terms of like where we are with the environmental movement and in our potential to succeed or fail in solving the climate crisis. Like do you see that there is kind of a potential or connection there. And I guess the reason I thought of this is because like this whole mother earth and is there like something in you know why is the earth considered feminine and what do you see as the opportunity for us to recognize our environmental solutions. Yeah, I think that's a great question as well. I think the thing is all these women step up into politics right now all over the world and they're coming in with a lot of environmental issues, because the feminine and very connected to her. And maybe it'd be helpful to just distinguish what the different things are masculine and feminine. So, when we're talking about the feminine we're talking about process energy we're talking about success through relationships we're talking about nature feelings emotions spontaneity. Dependency and understanding relationship dependencies for feminine and that's why we understand relationships and we value relationships. It's not a negative. It's only negative if it gets out of balance that's something that's really important with these two dynamics. And the masculine is kind of a more linear straight cerebral mental rational structure and order to things and it kind of identifies more with technology and having the success be seen through finances or providing. And that's the difference between I would say the two dynamics. So when you have one really out of balance which I would say the masculine is you need the feminine to rise to bring in that point of view that been kind of lost. Yeah, what ways would you say like specifically would you say that the imbalance has occurred. Yeah, I would say specifically not valuing feminine traits because if you do listen to like a lot of the feminine traits, such as feminine traits are emotion and male traits are our ration or rationalization or logic. A lot of the masculine traits were birthed out of feminine right like we have to remember that because logic is secondary to emotion. I mean if you think about like how the world evolved people like had to listen to their insight and their intuition before they had logic. They didn't know that a plus B equals C. They just had a hunch they had a feeling and they went with that feeling and then time over time it kept working and that's how logic got created. So I think that there was a disconnect for a long time and just being in the masculine and forgetting about where we come from and valuing those other traits that are really important for solving solving the dependency and relationships of humans to to the planet. Right, it's that connection to the is the feminine. And I think that that piece is huge. As far as understanding like if you have a feeling you need to listen to that feeling that it's not right to walk the beach and see plastic and and the masculine is also important in doing something about it. But listening to the feeling first and foremost I think is what is so important about the feminine rising. Yeah, I really like kind of like this concept that we all come from women and therefore like the feminine births all other kind of aspects of our essence whether you know we have the masculine or feminine dominant and energy. Why do you think, I guess historically you know what's we live in a patriot patriarchy male dominated society for the most part, with some exceptions why do you think historically that was the path that we went on like do you see any clear signs as to why that was you know like why didn't it go the other way. Just curious what your read is on that. That's a that's another really great question and I, I think that may track he did, you know, rule at one point we know that it did a very, you know, a long time ago, and there's a reason for it. Not really now and it could be that the mate the mat the feminine got out of balance at one point, you know, because as feminine rising it's really rising strong and the pendulum swings right. And I think that the masculine was like maybe the feminine really got out of balance and needed to find some type of container reason ration structure and order for the amount of people that were now in society. You know, you just go well in small tribes and villages, but when you get to cities like order boxes right like that's all very masculine the structure of a city, very square, you know feminine is circular. So, it's just efficient and time and the more we try to fit into a little box right with all the things everything we have now as a box. It's it all has to do with efficiency and resources and being more efficient which the masculine is better, you know, is great at the feminine is spontaneous. And so in some ways when you have so many people, you that can be dangerous. I understand possibly why the masculine got so extreme. But it got disconnected and is now out of balance so yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I didn't get it like you know it's like the right angles and straight lines like it's probably just easier for building and what yeah it is like the efficiency thing and I think that is extremely important when I just think about like the work many of us do like efficiency is so important in productivity. But given what's happened, you know where we are now with like capitalism and overworking and hyper focus on productivity and efficiency like there, there is a need to reevaluate. And I've kind of been noticing over the last several years where there's been a huge uptick in female empowerment and women's movements and like just this uprising of women saying you know we know our power and we're going to claim it and you know this is our time. And so I wonder, like, I've kind of heard from some men how they're feeling about I think it's mostly confusing, although they're like overall supportive but I think for from a male perspective it is confusing in terms of like identity and uncertainty for the future. So I'm wondering if you have experience talking to men about this and what you feel they feel about this or think about this and kind of like what how they should feel like moving forward or what their vision is what their path can be moving forward in this space. Yeah, I get this question a lot because they do a lot of work in women empowerment and I get the question like are you anti men because you're so about the feminine rising. And the answer is absolutely not I understand that the masculine being out of balance means that the masculine was wounded right like the masculine really like wounded at some point was like I need structure because something created chaos that didn't feel good for the masculine so the masculine overcompensating now with so much structure and so much rationality and and that has made hit made the masculine very unhappy in the long run I think we're seeing because the feminine traits of feeling spontaneity or really nurturing are really what you need for a wholehearted life. And I think that what has been difficult is is women rejecting the feminine and men is something that needs to be addressed as far as what we as women can do for them in this process of this balancing out. Because if we continue to ask them to change and don't really get specific about what that looks like or accept their feminine traits you know when they cry or when they do express emotion we're like oh like act like a guy and you know how do we value those traits overvaluing masculine to think that women in general need to come back to the understanding that we oftentimes choose alpha with who we give our attention to we also choose alpha of the traits that we choose to get attention to as females. So I think that's a big piece for us to remember but as far as men that feel this way. I think that they need to reach out to to women and relearn how to hold space for the feminine for the feminine chaos and for the feminine expression because it's been stomped out I mean they've murdered women before because of their expression. So there's a lot of fear of women to fully come into that expression and so men need to also honor women's expression of the feminine. So just the expression of the feminine genders needs to be relearned in some ways and then allowed for like you know when you're learning something you're not going to come out really fluid. You're going to come out maybe talking like a five year old or you know just having patience with that process. Yeah this kind of you kind of mentioned there's like violence against women sometimes and and how this manifests maybe because of this female expression that men have you know aren't used to or aren't prepared to like honor and hold space for. And this kind of reminds me of you know what's happened this weekend with the with the shooting of the police officers and the fires and kind of how that you know tragedy here on the island. And how it fits into the statistic that men are almost always the perpetrators of violent crime and mass shootings and I mean just destruction overall destruction and obviously that's not a spiritual or conscious manifestation but there is you know something that's occurred and manifested to lead to this pattern and I'm wondering like what you see as you know like specific actions you recommend to an individual like somebody who's watching who's like okay perhaps I have toxic traits you know no matter what gender you feel or are like what specific action items can you give to people who really want to work on this and want to contribute to you know a more conscious form of themselves. Yeah I think it's really sad about the that you know men are the ones who usually you know commit murder but they're also the ones who usually the ones that can carry out their suicide you know two time they're doubly likely to carry out their own suicide as well so just in saying that the masculine is just extremely wounded and that attributes hurt people hurt people and they're hurt but not in saying that it's the women's fault to fix I want to make that very clear because it is not. It really takes their self insight but some things that I would recommend one thing is that kind of made it my life work to kind of allow the feminine back in so I am holding a workshop here at my yoga studio. And it's basically geared for skills for women to tune back in to feminine expression without fear I think a big piece is that women are looking for permission constantly looking for permission to be full fully feminine their full expression because of being told they're too much and being told their stories are not believable and the feminine needs to get permission again so this workshop we're going to work in connecting the woman to allowing herself to full expression. And then we're going to also have a male facilitator who helps men learn how to hold space for the feminine. And I think that a big piece is that our society is so results based because we're so masculine that men are always. And so they're like how can I fix this how can I fix what I've done to women how can I fix. A woman when she comes to me and is upset I want to help I want to help and that's the masculine to want to protect and to want to get the result. Basically the skill that we're asking men to gain and through this workshop is to learn how to just hold space for expression full expression and then receive it and not need to linearly walk anyone through anything or try to fix anything but learn how to hold space because that's the biggest piece in healing people are going to find their own journey to that healing but we have lost the ability to have those tough conversations. Yeah, yeah just kind of pops up in like relationships that I've been in and that my friends have been in my girlfriends and you know we they are like these two types of men that I've encountered even in like the workspace where it's like you know the one type of man that is like the whole man explaining like they want to like teach you things and explain things and they also want yeah they want to fix things and like create the solution and repair and I think in some ways that's very beautiful and like needed in our world. But on the inverse of that is that you know women vent you know they vent a lot and they have feelings that they need to express and whether they have a solution or not is like really irrelevant. Oftentimes the woman like we usually just like want to express it all of the like you know thoughts and feelings and even the crazy ones and then once it's like out in the world it's like therapeutic and like we can move on. Typically is what I found especially when I think about like me when me and my girlfriend hang out and we mostly just talk through things and explore things together and we have answers mostly questions and we just talk through it and there's no like you know strong desire or necessity of like a solution and so I think it is important for men and masculine energies to like you know understand that the space holding and like the listening and being is like sometimes like the most valuable thing you can offer. You know to someone who's expressing challenges or thoughts. And listening wholeheartedly without bringing in assumptions or bringing in you know your own kind of goal for where it's the conversation supposed to go in and really seeing someone in their expression seeing a female because I hear you on the two different types of guys there's usually like the type of guy that really wants to mansplain and like tell you the way out like this is going to be the way this is the how I'm going to help you through this like you're damsel in distress that needs the masculine right and then there's the kind of guy that's completely aloof and doesn't even try to help at all. And the middle ground is kind of like a guy who comes and just can hold space and see and ask and then be okay with whatever the outcome is kind of. Yeah and when we talked about this topic first which is why I wanted to interview you. You kind of talked about how the ego plays into like the divine and masculine so you mentioned like that stepping into the masculine and stepping into the feminine means to step into or back off of your ego so can you explain that further. Yes, I love this quote that I told you. So Elizabeth Gilbert, I have to give her the credit. She said that the divine masculine is when a man puts down his ego and the divine feminine is when a woman picks hers up. And I think that how how I see that interpret that quote is that when a man is willing to put his own needs and aspirations goals down. He will really open up to hit the fullest and the and the, the not wounded piece of the masculine but the empowered piece of the masculine because ego is something that you can hide behind. You can hide behind goals and accomplishments you know your real self can and the feminine picking up the ego is her picking up her shock the energy which is like more of that sensual sexual energy and not in a way of needing to be seen but just needing to hold that for herself in an empowered way. Holding it and being like, you know, I'm going to shock me myself up I always say that just to like just for me, and, and that empowering feeling of connecting to self requires the female to her divine feminine to pick up a little bit of that energy and the mask and I'm going to put it down to see himself. Yeah, and it almost seems like that's again like rebalancing because you know the way many of us are brought up and raised. You know as woman to be like a little bit more passive and quiet we learned this like through our families and schools and and how men are kind of like old boys are always taught to be ambitious and motivated and successful. And you know the girls are like, you know, as long as you're pretty you'll be successful like there are few things that provide us value, if any outside of our physical physicality, kind of in the mainstream culture. And so it seems like that, you know, recommendation is a rebalancing of that and it makes me think about the. I don't know if it was a study but I've heard in several podcasts and books and stuff that women say sorry, like way more often than men and you know I think most people experiences I can name several people who are women who say sorry, excessively in situations they really don't need to just like all the time and yeah so what are your like what are your thoughts on like that like how we're taught and why women like are more apologetic and why men tend to be more confident at least you know generally. Yeah, I think that it really has to do with the effect of society and the collective on the female right like like you were talking about women are so much susceptible to that dependency to trying to please the need to please and the dependency of now really pleasing this external validation and so when I say a woman picking up ego I mean like picking it up and holding it unapologetically not needing to please other people and have them see her but picking it up and knowing her sacredness and knowing when she can say no and not feeling the need to sort of bleed out into everyone else's expectations. Yeah, totally. And another thing that I've been thinking a lot about is this gender roles you know and how there's been a whole feminist movement to almost eliminate it and say like these don't exist gender doesn't exist and all this stuff which I think you know in some ways is progressive but in some ways also ignores this like natural feminine and masculine essence and so I've kind of been leaning towards saying you know like I think gender roles exist for a reason and they matter in some ways as long as they're not oppressive and promoting inequality so what are your thoughts on gender roles? Yeah, that's a really good question. It's a hot topic right now. I think that it's great you know to be progressive and to just move into the energetics of it but I also think that polarity is really important polarity of like this is feminine and this is masculine because polarity is what creates that magnetism you know and if we so one in it's really beautiful to be like super balanced beings but sometimes the polarity is makes for faster shifts like we saw like Trump is like polar right and we've got the polar left like that is creating a lot of change right now versus like for a long time we had this you know very close to close parties so I think that I agree with you I think that gender it can be a really beautiful margin like Yin and Yang at some time. Yeah, okay we're in our last little bit here so I just want you to leave us with any kind of like you know message that you would put on a billboard or something that you would want to tell everyone if you had a moment to share something. Oh wow. A message I would want to tell everyone is that you know this type of thing takes intention and attention. So just kind of like finding your awareness of where like just noticing oh man I'm really my feminine and having what's the intention with that why are you using that energy so I guess just attention and intention is so important for anything any type of work that we do healing or just walking around every day. There you go yeah I like that billboard awesome well thank you my ESA maybe I'll have you back on Monday we can explore this and other topics but it's awesome to have you on and it's been cool learning from you. Thank you for having me Doray yeah I would love to come back and check out the feminine archetypes those are really helpful to women as well. Oh yes oh we didn't get to that but yeah sounds good feminine archetypes okay thank you. Thank you.