 Being practical in the face of so much diet tribalism is actually kind of radical, right? Like eat fruits and vegetables. It's that simple. You don't have to they don't all have to be organic They don't all have to be super fresh and perfect There's so much that complicates things that I was really trying to help almost Invigorate our reliance on our own common sense on kind of what we feel like is Right is reasonable, but we've been told is wrong by a million conflicting sources Sophie Egan is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 media and innovators magazine Sophie is a master of public health and is the author of How to Be a Conscious Eater Got it right here in front of me. Fabulous read absolutely enjoyed every page of it. It is a page turner and She was named one of Bon Appetit's favorite new books for climate-friendly Cooking and life and the founder of full table solutions a consulting practice that That is a catalyst for food systems Transformation she is also a contributor to the New York Times health section an Internationally recognized leader at the intersection of food health and climate Sophie serves as director of strategy for food for climate league co-director of the menus of the of change University research collaborative and senior advisor for sustainable food systems at our and D. Stanford dining for over five years Sophie has served as director of health and sustainability leadership editorial director for the Culinary Institute of America's strategic Innovatives group Sophie's writing has been featured in the Washington Post Time parents the Wall Street Journal Bon Appetit wired eating well Edible San Francisco food tank and sunset out of Boulder, Colorado Sophie welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me It's so good to have you here that you could take the time. You're busy 2019 two baby boys twins Congratulations a little late, but you're you're besides being Full-time family Woman a woman of power. You're doing all sorts of stuff in the food industry And I'm so glad you took taking the time to speak to me about your new book It's been out for a while. You've been talking about it all over. I Absolutely love that. I just have to tell you right now. It is It is a toolkit resource bit books super Graphics super tips and tricks at the end of the book It's visually stunning and I absolutely loved it But with all your experience, you've been doing this for a long time as we can tell in your biography I need to ask you the question. How in the heck hell have you weathered this crazy time 15 plus months of Black Lives Matters pandemic Asian racism Inauguration on and on and on and a lot of things around food and climate as well As all that experience that you had in the in previous your writing your family life giving you a little bit of a better Operating model a system to function on in these hard times to weather the storm Yeah, well, thank you for asking. I think this is a question each person is kind of grappling with as we round into Two sort of transitional times and and have this chance to reflect on how on earth. Did we make it through right? I'm grateful for some foundational Routines that have Pre that predated the chaos because it's harder, you know, my background is in behavior change and on the one hand Times of disruption, which the past year has been to say the least are actually really excellent opportunities performing new habits that can be Healthy beneficial sustainable, but they can also be difficult if it's something that let's say you weren't already doing it before It can be difficult if that's not kind of hardwired So exercise is an example where I was on the triathlon team in college. It's a non negotiable for me It's like sleep. It's like, you know drinking enough water in the day So I would talk to many people who were like I used to go to the gym and now how to figure out how to work out at home So I'm grateful things like that are just second nature to me food is like that too, you know, I really The pandemic I really found myself just Revelling in very very simple daily routine routines My one example would be my morning oatmeal I mean it could not be more basic, but it's the healthiest most sustainable thing ever and I would just sit there and savor sort of the peace and solitude of You know this peanut butter banana Bowl of oats that that was just nourishing me it felt very Stabilizing right there was so much instability that it's I think we all turn to what are those sources of Comfort of stability And of certainty there was also just so much uncertainty From one day to the next. I'm a big planner. I like to look ahead and plan great trips and adventures and and work projects and that was also very That was a major adjustment for me was to start to live very day to day Planning no longer than the end of the week and something about that I think really just brought a greater level of Presence to each hour sort of throughout the day because I wasn't my headspace wasn't in the future as much So it was it was an odd sort of reconciliation with my work, which is so about the future long long future right climate You know chronic disease development things that transpire over decades, but to have that that sort of Touchstone of just a very palpable very sensory very Boring in a way, but ultimately very stabilizing and comforting kind of daily habits Thank you for telling us about that because it's really We've all been struggling all around the world our routines have been disrupted we're we're social distancing we're Finding new routines building bad habits and some respects and finding hopefully some new habits on cooking and the way we act and And do things so that's perfect advice and it was good to see that you survived and that your family is has made it through and Honestly, what was this book launched during a pandemic? Yes, great question. So you mentioned it's been out for a while. It's interesting because My pandemic story everyone has the sort of where were you when the world changed right And I was actually supposed to be on a 14 city book tour It launched March 16 of 2020. So could you pick a worse time We my book tour was supposed to start in Seattle and that's where I'm from and so we were actually my family He mentioned the twin twin boys. It's it's a party. They're now two and a half. So it's it's real But we had decided to move out of our house in the Bay Area. We're moving to Boulder, Colorado And so we said hey, we'll go to Seattle for you know six weeks park the boys with my parents while I'm jetting around to these 14 cities We ended up living with my parents for about four months And and everything went virtual, of course. So so the book it's really interesting in a way because It was I think more relevant than ever because people are told me, you know I'm paying more attention to labels than I ever have I have more time to actually study the choices Study the producers before I make these decisions where so much of it before was sort of just fuel My first book is all about the American food psyche and how we actually don't focus on food And so it was so interesting to have these you know my favorite kind of interviews as an author is Live radio where you get callers. You never know what they're gonna ask And or what stories they'll tell and this this guy in in rural Wisconsin Sounded like an older gentleman. He he called in and he said Did you know there is absolutely no Oats in you know whatever cereal that was called like fruity odysomething something he's like I looked at the And there's nowhere to be found, you know and it's examples like that of you know really investigating your Cheerios kind of thing Or how many grams of sugar that I think made people feel like this was actually a really really relevant tool I appreciate the positive feedback and I really started to talk about corona conscious eating too I can get into kind of what that means if you'd like but in the short hand, you know the book is Three-part decision-making guide. It is really kind of a mental checklist of How to navigate the bewildering world of food choices So I suggest that to align your food choices with your values, which is my definition of conscious eating Not a diet by any stretch. It's really an intention throughout your lifetime I suggest asking yourself three questions. Is this food good for me? Is it good for others? Is it good for the planet and during the pandemic people would ask me, okay? How does this what's unique about this time that relates to that and one example was in the category of others Which I had I consider all the animals and people from farm to fork throughout the supply chain I think people really started to have a greater appreciation for frontline workers as an example right there were more kind of readily available Examples or we saw everything happening with slaughterhouse workers and thinking oh my gosh Those are the humans who actually make my meat available right the amazing horrifying amounts of food loss and waste that were occurring This these elements brought many people to these topics and and I'm really cautiously optimistic that it really will continue And and there's a lot of you know indications that that it will So I bet your family is just the static even though oh no the the pandemic you're stuck with with your parents now But I bet they're enjoying your two wonderful twin boys and and so blessing in disguise, but you know it's a crazy time There's been so many authors that I've had on the show same launching the book during the pandemic had a plan beforehand same stories And yet you were able to the to the power of the pivot come up with a new plan and new operating system and probably worked out better for you in the long run especially with the boys and other things I I still heard about your book but I might my ears to the ground always it is such a fabulous read and I really want to go deeper into it but you tingled on your your previous book and work and I've got a copy right here devoured I know you have another cover one that's totally red I don't know if this is the first edition or the second or if it's a Yeah, the yeah okay there's a paperback cover beautiful read absolutely loved it. I just need to mention that because I didn't have a podcast back when you had this but I would have loved to review it with you and talk to you about it because it is really a journey into the American psyche food psyche and it is such a fabulous read I just absolutely devoured it read it a couple times. Some things that I really had never I mean I don't I always thought about it and have been kind of thinking about when I talk about the innovations that have occurred since the Industrial Revolution in food. There's maybe five that I can count me you know if we push real hard six or seven really ground baking breaking innovations and one of them you spend a lot of time researching was the microwave supposed to make our lives simpler reduce food waste and give us more time and you devote a little section in the book about that I absolutely love that because most people don't realize how something that really was intended to be good as has a good and a bad side to it and I love how you you talked about it and brought that to life. The other other two things that I really enjoyed in your in that book was the psychology of lines and waiting for food and you know it's almost like something over the years there's like you're standing in line for Disneyland or Universal Studios or you know to get on the Eiffel Tower in Paris but no you're just waiting to get a taco or you know matter of fact in New York is crazy those just those three taco vendors you know there'll be lines miles long people you know in advance craziness and you really talk about that and what the psychology behind it is and then and then the brunches the the history of brunches and hotels and how that came and and and this is kind of a separate thing but also the buffets that have emerged you know all you can eat and the buffet type of styles where there's are no ingredient lists that are no this is made this way and this has this ingredient in and things and absolutely just like the book says I devoured it it was a valuable resource and I could really tell that Michael Poland is kind of your mentor and help and over the years that because there's I mean it's just chock full of tons of other wisdom and you you mentioned to refer to them as well so I wanted to thank you. I don't know if you want to tell us a little bit more about that and how how you even decided to go down the road to write that and then will I promise we're going to get on to your other book I just you've spent so much wonderful time doing this we should address and let our listeners know that you you have more than one fabulous work out there. Well I was so kind I really really appreciate that and it's fun to hear what stood out to you it's always interesting to me to hear from folks. So yeah so that book was really anthropological social science in a way it was this the back story to answer your question is I was a grad student at Cal getting my master's in public health and studying eating behavior and food systems and I had the amazing privilege of working with Michael Poland so I took food writing class with him in the journalism school and my first kind of breakthrough in as a food writer was actually wrote the cover article for Wired magazine's first food issue. And it was all it was a Doritos Locos taco. If you remember this it was a bright neon it's to this day one of the best selling fast food items in American history. And I was just so baffled by its success quite honestly because it was coinciding with this narrative about Americans love a farm to table and eating clean label foods and I thought you know how can these things be true simultaneously. And also just it seemed disgusting as an item so I was sort of fascinated by the item itself, and I had the chance to go to talk about headquarters in Irving California interview the CEO and interview the the inventor of it see the laboratory. And I really just went way into the weeds on on that item, but it really kind of set off the course for this book because it was this truly American food phenomenon stunt foods where it's limited time offers it's these mashups. It's things that are so shockingly gross or bizarre that they get they get you they get you hooked. It's a very effective marketing tool. There's examples in the past like KFC's you know the sandwich made out of two pieces of bread and chicken. There are many many other examples in packaged foods as well. But you know it was this phenomenon and I thought what are the kind of collective phenomena that define American food culture. Part of this also is that I spent a lot of time I lived in Italy, twice in my life, and there's such a strong food culture in many countries Japan is another place I've just fallen in love with, but have these very very strong food cultures as a country. And so often you hear America doesn't have a food culture, you know where this amalgamation of all of the food cultures of immigrant groups that have arrived over the centuries right. And so how do you really put your finger on it and I was like, I want to find out what it is. So that led me to really this kind of exploration of what defines how we eat and why in the US. And so my second year of my master's program I had the chance to work under Michael Pollan in independent study, and he really helped me structure the book, go through that whole process. So the gist of it is how American values separate from food, which I define really kind of honed in on work and productivity, individualism and independence, freedom, and then progress that innovation side. So how those shape our eating habits in profound and often rather awful ways, but where there are some silver linings. And so it's everything from sad desk lunch eating at our desks, the dismal amount of time that school kids get for lunch, all the way up to Doritos Locos Tacos and beyond. You talk about holidays you talk about Super Bowl you talk about events you talk about Doritos Locos Tacos and the different types and what spawned out of that and how much money was made and many, many other things for anyone listening I highly recommended it is a plethora of wisdom and knowledge and deep look and behind the scenes and into the psyche of food and how and why and also the history that really anthropology what you said I absolutely loved it and I also see how the evolution is now even to this. We have a bunch of mutual friends I had Eve to roll Paul on the show and on the podcast she's along with you in the food for climate league and also Dana Gunders who wrote waste free kitchen and had some absolutely fabulous work and also things and so somehow our passive cross and you're very focused in on the United States and I'm from America I live in Hamburg Germany and kind of focus a lot on Europe and Asia. And but my listeners are all over the world and I really personally I can relate to those holidays and the way the US psyche works around food. And it's just, it's a total different beast when you, when I first moved to Germany, I brought some products from the US over I was always drinking a type of a green tea and so I brought some of those with me and I'd let other people try or they'd ask me what I was always drinking and they're like oh that's too sweet I can't drink it that's way too sweet and the taste buds here are much different the pallets different the sweetness level is much different. And now I think we're going on 11 or 12 years that I've been here full time. And every time I go back to visit family or go back to the states. I have the same type of experience when I eat the breads when I eat the products that are made for me even with with my family. They're so sweet I mean even the, the coffees are just unbelievable I just as a different palette that you build and changes over time and I really like how in through your first book and that you kind of you say how the Americans are different in the food culture and how that's evolved your, your new book you really and I think we've touched upon enough of the other stuff that we can go into it but you really go into a bunch of different things so it's, I just want four different parts. So the book stuff that comes from the ground stuff that comes from animals stuff that comes from factories and stuff that is made in restaurants and kitchens. And then you really as you just said earlier before I went back to your other book as you really asked those three questions the three criteria. And for me is it good for others is it good for the planet and I love that because you really tie in the importance of sustainability and on our planet and long term things, but you also break it down how do we, how do we influence how do we change the system of highly processed food and in some respects how do we get is it made in a factory why is it made, how can we change that system, have we been come reliant upon factory food. And I don't, I didn't have any of the pages bookmarks so I could show but I mean this is an audio podcast, but there's just fabulous visuals and at the end of each section. You can give not only tips and tricks kind of the five takeaways so to say, and, and, or the takeaways from that section. Easy to read, beautiful to read but also it's very powerful to give you that knowledge that you need when you go to grocery store when you're looking at products before you get to cooking. So when you go out and eat, and I don't want to give it all away but I just tell you, I read it I loved it I, besides Dana's book and maybe one or two others I haven't found such a plethora of resources that people can use and their daily lives because we're overwhelmed we're like what do we do there's so many choices and you do talk about choices as well. So, I guess, I just really want to start out first and say, Have I surmised that good enough for you and what what were the real, besides what we've already touched upon some things for you now that it's been out of wall and you've been speaking about that is coming back as resonance during the pandemic that people say wow this book really has shown me a different world that I didn't know just some takeaways that you've seen and feedback. Yeah, well thank you I think you summarized it beautifully. I think one of the big pieces is actually about sugar it's interesting that you commented on that. I have a section in my first book about the desertification as in desert as in desert not desert of breakfast and how there are so many foods in the American marketplace right just the food supply that really should be categorized as dessert. For the impure amount of sugar coffee is another great example, breads even soups sauces, things that really you know when you look at it's like is that where you want to be blowing your sugar budget. And it is that sort of retraining that's needed of our palates, the same as you on the sodium side, the level of saltiness to sort of expectation for flavor that sadly begins really an infancy and early childhood I've been so in the U.S. to read the number of you know children in the U.S. or pre-diabetic and who totally exceed sodium levels at age one or two right. So I really definitely have heard from people how much just the bottom line facts about sugar are helpful because it's something that people really are I think there's been among the many many topics. So there's been quite a bit of consciousness raising in the U.S. documentaries like fed up, for instance, have helped kind of raise that on the national scene. And so you'd hear from people like, Well, I used to think this or I've heard that and one of the kind of pieces I'll add to your summary of the book is that it's meant to be the bottom line answers to the most top of mind questions about what on earth to eat, because there's so much decision fatigue information overload, but also misinformation and disinformation. And I'm glad you mentioned the resources that I pulled together because a big part of the service of this book and really my intention was to scan the evidence base and say, Okay, this is the tiebreaker. If your Facebook friend or your neighbor or your cousin is telling you, you know, this or that diet or I tried this and this work great. There's so much diet evangelism as I described in devoured that people really are not making fact based decisions. And so I also call this book radically practical in the sense that being practical in the face of so much diet tribalism is actually kind of radical. Right. Like, eat fruits and vegetables. It's that simple. You don't have to. They don't all have to be organic. They don't all have to be super fresh and perfect. There's so much that complicates things that I was really trying to help almost re invigorate our reliance on our own common sense on kind of what we feel like is right is reasonable. But we've been told is wrong by a million conflicting sources. Right. You can search the internet for and get any answer. So part of this is really just saying, here's what the evidence base, the science actually tells us and therefore what you should do about it and sugar is one example. But in terms of what is really resonated with people, I think it's two main things. One is around plant based versus plant forward, plant centric, flexitarian eating. When you talk about how to eat at the intersection of human environmental health, one of the biggest ways very simply is to emphasize foods from the plant kingdom. That's why that's the first section of book. It's the stuff that comes from the ground that should make up the bulk of your diet. But there's a lot that makes people think, and this is related to food for climate lead, which you alluded to, that the only way to eat for climate friendly is to go full vegan. You must completely exclude plant based foods. And there's such a narrative, especially in food around all or nothing. Right. Like you're in or you're out in group out group. And I really was trying to in this with this book say, you can eat in ways that are good for your health and not a planet, just by the ratios, emphasis, plant forward plant centric plant rich, whatever you want to call it. And that felt I think very relieving to people. Oh my God, I don't have to go completely vegan in order to optimize my health and not a planet like thank goodness right because it's it's felt very exclusionary in that way. The other big one, I think is around the holistic nature of the book. So it's those three questions, which are, I think of as apertures, right, like, if you can see the world with a set of three lenses simultaneously, because there's so much siloed thinking, you know, I'm all about animal welfare and therefore I'm vegan or I'm all about, you know, my nutrient density, and therefore I actually, you know, really count my calories and I'm using tons of single use, or single portion foods, tons of wrappers packaging, not at all paying attention to the environment. So I was really trying to help people see the interconnections and also just add some lenses to the ways that they're evaluating foods. And I think that was also especially again, nuance is not something that is always easy to deal with that was refreshing for many people. Yeah, I mean, you really need that balance everything in a balance and not this extreme one where the other. I've been a global food reformist or talking about global food systems reform or transformation for many years and speaking about food I come from long history of organic farmers in Europe and I've really been involved in that for a while, as well as climate and environmentalism and that type of thing and the minute people hear that they're automatically marks a vegan and that's all this extreme and there's there's these things that come out and not all life doesn't work always in an all or nothing or a siloed linear lateral approach is very complex many systems and it's different all for each gender and age and place that we live in the world is it's very different. Well, some places in the world don't have a lot of processed foods and other places have tons and a lot of, you know, different types of choices. So I really liked how you address that in the book and it's really you give the choice back you give the, the not even choice the suggestions or the, the education or the tools there so that they can say oh how can I improve my situation do it for what I can eat how I like, but still be good for my health and the planet and for others and I really absolutely love that you you also kind of tingle on some things that Michael Poland said as well as far as the balance goes as well his famous, his famous words, I always say, and kind of maybe want to get into this a little bit more is that it's really not about the brands of the future or the food products of the future or the future of food in that respect it's not about how we produce food that will have the biggest impact on human suffering human health and, and our environment if we produce food without aromas flavor sugars added as preservatives chemicals pesticides what you know whatever else and without in that process there's a lot of waste a lot of greenhouse gas emissions a lot of external externalities. It's really hard to make a bad product you know there's this really hard to say okay is all these blue dyes and these lists of ingredients you've never heard of. Plus in the process the planet doesn't suffer on long transportation ways or the way it's produced. That creates emissions or some kind of a waste that comes back to bite us exponentially and so I don't know how much you agree with that line of thought and how would you phrase that in your words on processing food or factory food. I completely agree with you and it's interesting because there's actually so humans are looking for mental shortcuts right again the world is complex information overload we all have a lot of busy lives and it's difficult. And so I don't think that's going to go away, but what can happen is that we either oversimplify at the at the detriment of all these other things you mentioned in the, you know, other examples of technologies where there's actually unintended consequences. I would say that one unintended consequence of the focus on local food is that people have reduced climate smart eating to food miles. When you actually look at the breakdown the pie chart of emissions from food transportation is about 5% production is like 60 to 70%. And I really think there needs to be greater attention to it's not only the processing but you mentioned your family history which is really interesting. How is it grown, what state is the soil in as a result. What is the impact on surrounding wildlife and ecosystems, right and so it's the entire process from seed to to the packaging and people often also forget about what happens afterward right the downstream effects. Is it compostable is it coming a rapper that's compostable. I really love human. You know there's Ellen MacArthur Foundation and others who are working on this idea of circular economy. It's a wonky term and I can talk about why for many eaters right now that's like what on earth are you talking about. But in principle it's just this idea that could we have kind of back to nature everything in a cycle, as opposed to extraction to you know waste right. I definitely agree with you that they're there that is far more important. I'll give some examples just briefly. One of my favorite things in in general I mentioned my mail is I'm kind of a whole grains fanatic. And I think they're really under appreciated. But one of the craziest things that happens to me that happens in my perspective doesn't happen to me is how so many food products start with a whole grain kernel. That is perfect right nature's beautiful package the germ the brand and the end of sperm and it's stripped of its most beneficial parts, which by the way now is a huge food waste crisis. There's a fantastic scientist named named Steven Jones from the bread lab at Washington State University you should have him on your podcast he's brilliant and fascinating. Yeah, so he he has really kind of started to raise this point that not only is that so stupid nutritionally, but it's a huge food waste problem right. And sometimes it's going to animal feeder or whatnot but what happens is that now you have the least nutritious part that gets manipulated bleach turned into whatever horrible thing it's going to become has all kinds of stuff added to it. And then sometimes the manufacturer will actually add back in a form of fiber and say you know that it's that it has a value at. So it's now sort of inferior to how it began. And plus has a bunch of weird new things. So that's just an example where we can really start to look at how do you kind of undo some of those those systems and processes and it doesn't mean. I don't believe that people are going to only eat whole foods forever. I, that's great if you can do that for the bulk of your diet. But I get that there's going to be obviously a role. But I mean, I'm heartened by at least things like upcycle foods, the new upcycle foods Association and certification is really fueling more of these kinds of products that start with by products as an example, and especially when they can also reclaim some of the nutritional value that's just totally being wasted at the same time that we have these other, you know, human environmental health crises. Absolutely. I mean, Dana talks about that a little bit in her book as well. So what can you do to avoid that waste free kitchen and, and there are so many tools and tricks out there to do that. It's also that psyche of convenience. Do we have the time you and devoured you talked a lot about we're eating at work if we had reduced working hours and there wasn't this extreme pressure then we wouldn't eat while we're working or in front of the computer or one handed, which also has a huge effect on how we eat and how what we eat because it's about convenience quick and it's it's not this, you know, even though we've both spoken and been involved in many different eating conventions and organizations, where they're saying food and you know family food is how family and culture gather and there's this exchange. Yes, to some extent but there's also as you have shown from your studies and research that that used to be the case and it's kind of changed over the years, especially as we've seen cell phones and other things that are just kind of taking us away from that reality. And especially in the holidays like you mentioned the Super Bowl and Thanksgiving and some things that where it's really not the focus around the dinner table on the TV or some other type of a way of doing it so I absolutely love that there is some kind of questions along that lines of process food factory foods and things that I want to see what your experiences are and I'm not sure that I totally read it's not part of part of your book but I want to ask your opinions and advice you do consulting so if anybody wants to know I'm still in some free consulting and there's in the climate arena and this is another thing that that I really need to say about you in 2018 you completed this executive education for sustainability leadership program at Harvard Center for climate and health and the global environment and you're really big about that the state of our planet and health and environment and how the climate and you're probably still learning, but I'm the same way and so I also think that in food for a long time. There's been this big mess of natural capital true cost of the products the, the harvest time the labor time the transport time the water the energy that goes into produce that. And I'll give you an example, I love cashews and I love avocados and I love mangoes and in Germany, they don't exist so they come from Vietnam they come from Thailand. They're thousands of kilometers away thousands of miles away for American friends listening add their, then they're sold in the grocery stores here, even in a whole foods are natural. In a grocery store or grocery store, they would sell for, you know, a mango for one euro or maximum two euros, or a whole bag of cashews that are salted and roasted for a euro 50, and there's no way that the embedded water the transport the packaging and so we've seen more of this white labels no name brands and also since 2008 when we had the financial crisis and all food systems kind of went into commodity thing that the natural capital and the true cost of food is totally disappearing out of those products. And there's not a lot of thought or ethics or consciousness when people say, Oh yeah, I'm so glad that's a euro 50 for a bag of cashews and you pop it in your mouth and you've just eaten a tree a tree and a half of cashews right. So I kind of like to get your thoughts and feelings or how you've dealt with that and maybe where there's some places in the book if you tickled upon that or if that's a whole deeper subject. Sure, but I definitely have a lot of thoughts on it and it's interesting that you ask in terms of the timing because just at the start of this year I actually started to co lead a working group on true cost accounting true cost of food. There's many different terms for real cost of food. That's part of the Google food lab and I have the pleasure of co leading this with an amazing amazing food systems leader named Mara Fleischman who's the CEO of chef and foundation, another person you should have on your podcast. We're really trying to figure out how to accelerate. I don't love the term consumer, but either awareness citizen awareness policy maker awareness, and also buy in on the business side. I really stopped skirting this issue because what you spoke of is dead on there is a long rooted artificially low priced system to food. One of my main examples that I give for that is the dollar menu at many fast food chains. I mean, how on earth a hamburger can cost $1 should really make you wonder how were the workers treated, how was the animal treated, what was it fed. How was it cooked or put together that in any possible realm of reality made it cost $1 right and there are many examples like you said that really what happens. The most powerful framing that I've seen so far about this is to demonstrate where those costs actually do show up. So they're not being owned by the company they're not being paid by you the person buying in. Where do they go and so there's a there are some some organizations starting to capture this and it's fascinating right I mean the biggest one is healthcare costs because all that crap produces a lot of disease. That winds up costing, you know, in the US we have the highest healthcare costs imaginable that's definitely its own topic. But then there are ecosystem impacts, right, you have to deal with the damage that's being done, someone has to clean that up right that the water quality perhaps from let's say CAFOS confine animal feeding operations. There's a sludge that might be emerging from that you have air quality impacts. Some of that goes into healthcare costs, asthma and so forth, some of that goes into environmental costs, but just really trying to capture and make visible those externalities that you spoke about. So I would say that it's an incredibly important topic. It's still very early days at for sure from a kind of eater or public awareness standpoint. One of the things we're talking about is even how to talk about it because I think true cost accounting for example is a very wonky description that's not going to get it's not going to rocket this into pop culture. And so instead it's you know it's really trying to say, how do we make this palpable and feel relevant to you as the eater, because one of the important considerations is equity. We're not have a situation where it's like, okay, we're going to start reflecting the true cost of this food. And now all of your foods are going to cost six times what they cost now. And how on earth are low income people going to eat real food right how are they going to eat the foods that are now the better foods that are priced accordingly. All the worst foods are still going to rate that's how is that going to end up in a situation where everyone has access. So we have to do so in a way that leaves no one behind. This is another really big challenge as you start to look toward that because what we don't want is the situation where again sort of it's only available to the elite. And this is a really big part of what the future climate league is all about is democratizing sustainable eating a big piece of that we focus on narrative, how to talk about it. And I think that language is is something that I'm especially focused on. But in the case of true cost of food, the actual costs have to also change before the narrative can even be applied. You're also part of your company is food table solutions and consult consulting practice that basically as a catalyst for food system transformation and so you can have a lot of people and have portfolios center around defining decade projects and concerted effort to address urgent need, especially towards this climate action by 2030. That leads me to a couple of things that also tied to the book. In 2020 we started the UN, Antonio Guterres are the UN food system summit because of that with 2020 we really couldn't do anything now we're starting to realize this year the food systems dialogues we're having the pre meeting soon and in Rome. We're going to have a summit in Rome at the FAO and then we'll have and hopefully in September, keep our fingers crossed we'll have the actual physical hybrid event of the UN food system summit there. The topic, the theme around food and how it affects human health human suffering and our environment is to the forefront it's risen to the top it's the number one thing it's the biggest way as Paul Hawkin would say and others who speak about this the biggest way to draw down the problems that we're having in our world, and I know you've been involved with this they started out with the eat form this year online you did a talk with with them online and touched upon your book but upon other things and and the eat form came out with the eat lancet report and food in the Anthropocene and basic things and so I just want to know kind of going forward. What are the tools and tips and tricks things that you've been talking about and what what is your view of why we really need to find some urgency around reaching some of the goals and targets in 2030 and how that ties to your book and also the other work that that I see you doing around the globe on an offline for this. Thank you yeah so I won't bore everyone with all the stats of the climate science but the the gist of it is that there's broad consensus that 2030 is kind of this tipping point this deadline, if you will I'm a writer of that we have to avoid the worst effects of climate change. We already see awful effects of climate change around the globe, all the time, right? Climate change is not a hypothetical future state, it's here at our doorsteps and it's real. So really it's up to us to achieve drawdown as you said which is the point at which emissions stop rising and eventually start decreasing. So we have this time sensitivity. In my realm what I've seen is just often overlooking the powerful role of food as a tool for climate action. Project Radon is one of my guiding lights because they have this amazing list of the top 80 plus it's growing solutions for reversing global warming. Number one on their list is reducing food waste. Wow right I mean this beats out the usual suspects in energy and transportation things that most commonly are associated with the tools in our toolkit the areas of investment where we should be focusing our time energy policy. Number three on their list is plant rich diets. To me this is so exciting because I've been working on food waste and plant rich diets for years and it just was wind at our backs to double down and to accelerate. Part of why I designed my consulting practice in the way that I have is I've seen so much great work among countless organizations who are trying each in their own way to tackle a piece of this right at the intersection of food health and climate. But most often it's not coordinated. It's not measured the impact of the things that they're doing are not measured. It's not moving fast enough. And so my goal is not to invent a new solution. It's actually just to propel the solutions that we know we have at our fingertips in principle in practice to propel those forward to get more companies more governments more NGOs more developers more any stakeholders relevant eaters embracing them. So that we have this this chance to really use the tools that are at our disposal. So some of the ways that I do that one really strong example is the menus of change university research collaborative. So this is an incredibly exciting consortium global network of 60 plus colleges and universities all around the world. We have other chefs dining directors academic researchers senior university administrators and other food leaders from universities as well as other research collaborator kind of organizations NGOs including eat that you mentioned. And we use campus dining halls as living laboratories to understand how do you get people to waste less food how do you get folks super excited to eat platform and so forth related to healthier more sustainable ways of eating. So what we've done recently really over the past four years is embraced our collective purchasing power. So we have an initiative called the collective impact initiative that takes this concept from Stanford social innovation review the the organization is led co founded by the Culinary Institute of America and Stanford and I'm the co director alongside Eric Montell who's the executive director of Stanford dining and this collective initiative is really embracing the power of collective target setting. So so often we have pledges from individual companies individual city governments. And it's really saying when we all work together towards we have a shared goal of 25% reduction of food related emissions by 2030. Each institution we have Kansas State University in the heart of cattle country they may move a little bit slower than you know, Cal my water right the Berkeley kind of hub of the food movement. But we're all moving in the same direction and sharing learnings about what works to shift our protein portfolios to reduce emissions. So I really think that there's in particular shared data sharing in general and understanding more on an open source level versus here I'm my company with my secret roadmap to net zero and more of a collective approach to this effort that I think is one tool that can really help accelerate. There are many others the narrative is a big one. But those are some some of the examples I'll just close with cross sector learnings is another super important tool that's often under underutilized Stanford dining. We actually just joined drawdown labs which is project drawdowns consortium of bold climate leaders from mostly private sector companies who are working together to scale climate solutions. And what's so exciting about that group is it brings together, you know, all birds fashion, for example with CPG impossible with tech companies like Google and into it with us were University, and we're really now able to do kind of what I was describing on the collective impact, but cross sectorally, all of this in turn I have tremendous optimism and energy, just by the possibilities of what's been sort of untapped or undertapped. As far as the tools we have available. I love it that is such a heartwarming. I don't know if you know, Paul Hawkins coming out with a new book in September it's called regeneration. So excited for it. Yeah. I've had a couple of the researchers. Tony's Meyer was he did the carbon farming solution book and he also wrote the big sections around farming and permaculture and regenerative agriculture in the drawdown and was one of the researchers in there as well and so I've had him on the podcast and absolutely I just love those thinking about the drawdown project and I guess the drawdown labs as part of the NCSE drawdown project labs something it's a climate based science project is very fabulous so I'm excited to hear you're involved with that and thanks for kind of going deeper and giving us that insight because it's so important. The real crux of it all is I want to ask in in simple terms. What's your what's your best advice how do how do we become a conscious eater. Yeah, so the way I have started to think about introducing this to people over time you mentioned you know now that it's sort of the benefit of time it's been out in the world for a year the audio book just came out read by your history. Can I say something that I actually wanted to mention that as well so I highly recommend everybody get the get each of the books devoured and this book because they're great reference resource book to you'll probably be going back and looking at them tons of times, but both of her books are on audio and she reads them and they are beautiful if you can tell from her but wonderful voice so thanks Sophie but sorry to interrupt. Thank you know I know this podcast I hadn't mentioned it. That's true conscious eater for sure as such spectacular visuals so so hopefully kind of a mix of of both and I have to give tremendous kudos to Iris Gottlieb who is that incredibly talented illustrator and conscious eater. But yeah so I think what I've started to really do is situate the advice and conscious eater within a very wonky framework for behavior change and systems change and it's called social ecological model if you've ever come across this. It doesn't matter what that academic model is the point is to think about the different levels or different levers of influence that you have. So I am an individual I put food in my body. I need to make choices that align with my personal values that leave the least imprint on the people and planet that optimize my own health, but I'm also mother and I feed my husband. And I have to think about it on a household level and the collective footprint of now the four of us. Then I have my immediate neighborhood community level. I may want to influence the school that my children eventually go to the institutions that are in my community and neighborhood have huge purchasing power and volume just of the total footprint that they that they have through purchasing and then also on the populations that they serve. Then there's just these concentric circles right and it grows from there to the state regional national and ultimately policy level. So my ultimate goal is that people really practice, get in the habit, get some small wins with conscious eater. Okay, something so simple like I feel like I should probably stop having toast with butter every morning. Okay, try out peanut butter instead. Or let's say you eat a sandwich with turkey and cheese every day for lunch. Maybe you try with hummus and avocado. You get a positive feedback loop. That actually wasn't bad. I felt great afterward. It saved me money. It tasted awesome. It snowballs from there when you have these small cycles again feedback loops that then become just the defaults in your life. And you don't have to invest the mental energy. Once you've already invested in each of those changes. And I really encourage people on the individual level to focus on your scrutinized habits. Your coffee ritual. What do you eat every weekday for lunch? Not what do you eat on your birthday or on vacation or, you know, on a special date night surprise, you know, special celebration. Because of the total impact that those scrutinized habits have is way greater on your health and on the planet. Then once you have that kind of empowerment and and really the knowledge base and an evidence base, use your voice vote with your grocery basket vote with your vote also to really advocate for the same kind of framework at those other levels at your community level. The institutions, do you have an employer? What is their food program at schools again colleges and universities and ultimately at the policy level. There may become or you can help bring about legislation that can make a huge difference and I allude to some of that in the book food waste is one example date labels is like the craziest thing we have of, you know, best buy best before all these very confusing labels. You can vote, call your Congress people and and express your support of things once you have that sense of what are the general production methods, the general types of foods that are going to really support that intersection of what's good for us others. So, both your books were really America based so a lot of America research study which is fine, but I have a kind of a global question for you. Do you feel like a global citizen, and how would you feel about the removal of all borders walls and limitations humanity one from another. What's your view on your understanding of this, and especially with the lens of food. That's a fascinating question, I can tell you I've never been asked that. I don't think I personally feel well, I do and I don't in feel like a global citizen. The pandemic has changed this in a way right because we've really each of us I think gone deep into our immediate surroundings. Even because of everything being virtual, we are also in places we never were before we're interacting with people across every time is unimaginable. So it's it's an odd thing we're in my mind in the ether internet world, I absolutely feel like a global citizen, but in my 3D body, I feel so deeply attuned to my immediate surroundings to, you know, the mountain air to the spectacular. You know, plants that are appearing that are driving allergies crazy. And in those ways it feels very it's both like, there's a great term called local, which is global and local right. And I also feel that sense of I'm just so eager to connect with my next door neighbors right or or the producers that are a bike right away from me. So I really have been pleased with how virtual engagements, you mentioned UN food system summit and I've been so delighted by the ways that I can participate in things I never could have traveled to physically before. And, you know, many of us will rethink should we be traveling to those for the, you know, the air travel missions. But I'm having dialogues with people across the entire world and that is a really good outcome. I feel, should we dissolve all borders in the, for the sake of food I think is the second part of the question. Oh, that's a tough one. I don't know if I have a good answer. I think the main thing I would say is that there's a great tagline from a sweatshirt I have from a I gave a book talk at Northeastern University. And then the sweatshirt says food is the universal language. And that I 1000% agree with. I do really feel, you know, there's other terms like, if you, if you want to understand someone, eat their food. And there's so many things about that that are so true. It's, it's a powerful tool for diplomacy. I've been admiring programs that you know send chefs abroad to, to broker peace deals and so forth. So I think it's one of our best vehicles for global community for understanding across borders across languages religions. And it has, it's hard to think of something that could beat it for for that potential of kind of dissolving barriers, overcoming those differences. I don't know if I can say we completely get rid of borders, but I'm excited for sure about, you know, again even the power of the internet to share food ways to share food knowledge to share trends, and to help us feel connected to people who in your 3D body you don't interact with who you start to feel a sense of connection with, because you understand their food. Thank you for, for addressing that the reason just so you know, and the reason I ask is because during this crazy time of the pandemic and lockdown and social distancing, really, air, water, food have all been global citizens the pandemic was a global citizen species have been a global citizen. We're breathing the same air that Gandhi or Caesar or Plato Socrates or breathing it's just been regenerated a few million billion times more the same water as well. And all that goes back to the waste there is no throw away on this planet or for all crew members of this, this grand spaceship Earth. And, and this kind of interesting to see those in Europe and especially in Germany there's been a couple grocery store change that in local stores or local areas they've taken all of the non local foods off the shelves to show the customers what it would be like to not have food or the diversity of other foods from other places that weren't locally grown and harvested and produced off of the shelves and it's been a grand experiment of how global our world is and how global food is and you know, I don't know you've been a lot to Italy I don't know if you ever dealt with this but it's probably been since 2010 even stronger majority of the tomato sauce for pizzas and sauce comes from China for for Italy, you know, and some very fancy restaurants and very fancy producers will will do local stuff or get stuff from Greece and but the majority of tomatoes tomato sauce and pace comes from China. And if you know it Italians like I do and they really knew that they would pull out their hair they would be embarrassed because of their strong pride and in their cuisines and so this time is also driven a lot of nationalism in this around the world and food has really been the sufferer in some respects I don't know if you know how much food was not harvested and went to waste because we didn't have the migrant laborers who could harvest that we didn't have enough people to produce it. And then that doesn't even go to say all the in Germany we had a big problem in the chicken and meat processing areas during the pandemic, all sorts of important conditions and in the US as well that these times where we have pandemics or catastrophes or energy crisis or financial crisis, where our basic resource which is food or basic energy source in this world where those really the problems these global problems and the systems are really the cracks in the system I guess really shine to light and so that's kind of how why I asked you that question to kind of see your feeling and and the bigger perspective I believe you answered it absolutely beautifully thank you about that I always nice to see another perspective. The hardest question that I have for you today is really the burning question WTF and most people like the swear word no it's not the swear word, although probably in the past 15 months you said this especially when I oh now we're going to be with my parents and the kids or whatever somehow you you you you might have said that with all the craziness going in on our world. But it's what's the future and kind of your vision your lens for you what's the future, especially since your company consulting is the 2030 so give us that vision. Yeah, absolutely. So a couple of things. One is currently why I even had to write how to be a conscious eater is that the marketplace is set up so that if you want to eat in ways that are best for you others in the planet, you really have to go out of your way. You are like a salmon swimming upstream. The future, my hope true belief is that the defaults will be that way. The marketplace will shift consumer signals will shift the urgency of climate change will require from a production perspective these shifts so that the food environments that we inhabit globally won't feel as much like you are that kind of going against the counter forces and having to sleuth out the options that are better. I described you know at the end of the book, you will call it conscious eating you'll just call it eating and it will be inherently conscious. Why do I think that's possible is because every year there's been greater demands collectively for transparency traceability accountability. You mentioned true costing is going to absolutely kind of start to enter that and the level of granularity. Not only who made my food but how from where exactly I only see that going more, more precise through, you know, the many technological tools that are enabling this AI machine learning right. And also just through that cultural the cultural wins that that propel it forward. The other thing I think is is the the mirror of that is that climate smart eating will become the norm. The sustainable eating will be just it won't be the niche as it's long been where it's sort of only for you know the people who can afford it or only for people who you know are tree huggers or whatever. It can just be the defaults it will be. It will be the defining elements of food culture again because it must, but also because the options available will increase right to the to the counterpart on I always think of my work as both consumption and production top down bottom up transformation of the food system. Another major element I see in the future that's part of this, both for our health and planetary health is a dramatic increase in the diversity the biodiversity of foods that we eat. We eat through a Paul or others who come on your podcast have spoken about this crazy situation where something like 75% of what we eat comes from 12 species, you know 12 plants and five animals something like that. And it's awfully boring, right when you really start to look at it that way. From the perspective of resilience from the perspective of cultural diversity and culturally relevant diets. There's so many reasons so many sort of confluences that point us towards a future where our diets are plates are just comprised of a much greater range of foods and we're going to really look back and say, how lame was that how narrow. And, and, and just the the explosion I think of kind of reconnecting with the hundreds of thousands of species that are available, but just have yet to sort of be re rediscovered. They're not new there and they're really just been pushed to the margins for all the reasons we've talked about in the name of, you know homogenization and convenience and all these other drivers that I've really believe will become our hope and believe will become less important, so that other things can become more important. And hopefully, those other things will be all the parts that I talked about in the book, right. Absolutely our own health and and social welfare animal welfare and and planetary health above all. I absolutely agree with you and I think that not only will it happen, it's just the better operating system it's a better model not only for those. Those past factories of food or the high process food producers they'll realize that there are some better models there with better diversity better products for customer residents and. And for that that are not only better long term for business and they're not at the cost of finite resources are human health and the ripple effects are up. But that it's a one that eventually that that consciousness and that shift will change in such a way that we will hopefully have to spend less time looking at labels and ingredients list because there will be better processes for food producers of food and more whole foods more clean foods more once where the labelings is is not the factory can say I trust or I can. I don't even have to look because I'm can rest assured that the food systems have solely begun to change the way we, we look at the world and food and that diversity comes back. And that is there I really think see that as well. This is kind of similar to the future question is a little bit different. What does a world that works for everyone look like for you. I've facilitated ideations like this, and it's very hard to say kind of to your earlier question about global local. It's very hard for people to describe this as a globe. I mean you can kind of get the view from space, right. I even have a children's book for my, my boys that's about climate superheroes and it, it shows how the earth went, you know, was sick, went to the doctor got diagnosed, and then it basically got a giant bath and came out clean and better and healthy and happy. So the view from space is that animals are thriving, plants are thriving, waters are clean oceans, right so it's all in balance, you know, and, and of course there's the term planetary boundaries those are being exceeded, and so forth. The air is clean and pure it's like those ads for allergy medication where you peel it back, you know the clarity and it's like gray and murky and then you peel it back and it's like you're seeing through contact lenses for the first time. So that's all like as a, as a whole, the planetary system. What that means in terms of day to day life for humans, it's easier I think to think about on your neighborhood scale. And it's really, it's really these kind of utopian visions that kind of started to appear during the pandemic in many ways. It's people slowing down, eating at a table, cooking way more than they ever did, growing way more food than they ever did. It's using as opposed to Michael, you mentioned Michael Pollan, he has a great book, one of his earliest, that was all about how stupid it is to have lawns. And you can really imagine that people start to just totally change how they use their space, right, everywhere can be a vertical garden, it can be an herb garden, it can be a chicken coop, a lot of communal food sovereignty that way. A lot of just time spent outdoors. And a part of that, you know, there's, there's ideas such as like universal wages, which could even more bring this about because one of the biggest crises on the level of good for others is really about how food workers are paid. And, and, you know, restaurant workers and tipping and so forth factory farm food, farm workers the whole range. But if you imagine that everyone is has a basic income level that secures their core human needs housing, and so forth, sufficient nutritious food. And there is that utopian vision that can be possible. That's not only for the people currently who have enough income to make all those things possible. So there's policy changes that will have led to that being, being possible, and you can kind of, again get the kind of view from space but also the just almost like the best block party you've ever been to where everyone is is is growing and cooking and celebrating the simplest pleasures in life right of sharing food and and sharing connection and that's the last thing I'll say on that is, it's one in which our core human needs and the rest of the Food for Climate League ethos, our core human needs of control, community and purpose. All of those are in alignment and being reflected in the broader food system that exists at that global scale. I want to come to that block party that's for sure. I want to be part of that. Yeah, I'm growing more food than ever. And I've always grown food but growing more food than ever. It's a beautiful experience and I think that really that's, that's what we're going to see in that overview effect I also speak about just being environmentalist and kind of a climate you, you tend to touch upon that as well you touch upon that spaceship Earth. I only have three questions left left for you and they're really for my listeners there. For them to kind of have a sustainable takeaway if there was one message that you could depart my listeners, or even two messages as a sustainable takeaway that would have the power to change their life. What would it be your message. The message is food is one of the most powerful tools that any of us has on a daily basis for individual climate action. Climate change can feel incredibly overwhelming. It can feel distant. It can feel like someone else's problem to solve. And it can feel very in amorphous, but very practically. To say that we eat three times a day or more. Each of those is an opportunity for you to feel empowered as a kind of hero. And it's not a one size fits all there's a vast menu of ways to eat climate smart. But the big picture message is embrace the power the agency of food as a tool for climate action, and so much will follow from that. What should young innovators, writers, public health advocates and your field be thinking about for ways to make a real impact. I really think that systems thinking should become requirement of the K-12 education. The more that people see what they're doing and how it fits into the whole transdisciplinary. Again, we talked about, you know, when these things become default, you don't even need the term. Everything should be multidisciplinary and transdisciplinary. Food touches everything. And that's part of what I love about it. And the more that those all the types of folks that you mentioned, understand the whole the interconnections. These are not linear. And they're not static. If everyone were a systems thinker, and it's hard and it makes your head hurt. But it greatly enhances your ability to channel your time and energy towards things that are truly going to be helpful. One of my biggest gripes. I've spent a lot of time living in Silicon Valley. Innovators are often designing solutions to problems that don't exist. And it's a huge waste of time and money and resources from my perspective. I just think about the possibilities of every, you know, tech genius out there spent all their time and said trying to talk with climate change, how better off we would be. Or any number of other, you know, racial social issues related to food and everything else in society. So if you are in any of those positions, and you can find ways to take an online class or just even look at visual examples. What is a food system? What is a system? How do I fit into the system? How does my work fit into the system? And really, Kathleen Merrigan, former US Secretary, she really points out that it's systems, plural. There is not one system. And as you start to think about these layers, again, it can become heavy and complicating, but it can also become clarifying because you see that you have no time to waste. And the more, the more you'll be, you'll be, as I said, channeling your time and energy towards things that are really going to make a difference. Beautiful. What have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start? Oh, that's interesting. I discovered one of my closest mentors other than Michael Pollan is Will Rosenswaite. I'm going to just fill up your podcast with future guests. He is an original systems thinker and founder of the Center for Responsible Business at Haas Business School, among many other things that he does. He introduced me to a really fascinating construct called Ikigai, I-K-I-G-A-I. And this is a diagram that comes from Japan that is how to align these different imperatives to figure out your kind of life purpose or life career path. And if you just Google it and you will see that it is an incredibly helpful compass for figuring out how to spend your time on Earth. It's really kind of this alignment of what you're good at, what the world needs, what you can get paid for. And there's a fourth one that I'm forgetting, but it just helps you see if you can figure out that intersection, you will feel challenged, proud of the strengths you're bringing forward to your work. You will feel fulfilled by the purpose and mission. And I sure could have used that a long, long time ago. Food systems work is very, it's hard to see the on-ramp I describe. It's not like other career paths, you know, you're studying law and you go to law school and you become a lawyer, you study medicine and so forth. It's very hard to see how do I get onto that superhighway of food systems change. And if I had that diagram, and not to mention if there were more food systems curricula and colleges and universities, something I'm working hard on, it would just be so much easier to see where I could fit in and really try to do work that's meaningful to me individually, but that ultimately has the big impact that I'm looking for. I love that. Yeah, icky guy, Japanese. I've mentioned that before, but we'll also put a link where people can find that online in the show description with all your websites, your book references and everything that we've talked about. We'll do in the time stamping put in the show description so that everybody can go and look up and order their books and reference manuals and to get the empowerment that you give as such a wonderful person helping the world to really become better conscious heaters. I really appreciate your time, Sophie, and for letting us inside of your ideas you have wonderful ideas and I'm expecting many more over the years, because I can tell your concern not only about your children and your family but also for many other human beings that we get into a better place when it comes to food and our climate and our earth and that's all I have for you unless there's something you forgot to tell us or didn't get to get out, this would be your chance before I tell you goodbye. I think you asked phenomenal questions so it all came to the surface. I just am grateful for the opportunity to share this work and so admire your leadership as well so thank you so much, Mark. You're most welcome. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day.