 Welcome to Sister Power. I'm Sharon Thomas Yarbrough. Our guests for this episode, attorneys, Rachel James, Leslie Matthews, and Daphne Barbie-Woochen. Ladies, thank you for joining Sister Power. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you, Sharon. It's great to be here. My hello. Oh, I love it. You know, we're here live in Honolulu, Hawaii, everyone. And I would like to start with Rachel. Congratulations, Rachel James, and the attorney with the Hawaii Public Utilities. And you were on the cover of Hawaii Business News, right? Hawaii Business Magazine. And it looks like, you know, I want to hear, Rachel, you can unmute. I want to hear when you receive that information that this is 20 for the 20. So explain to the viewers about 20. It's 20 for the next 20. Yes. Thank you for just welcoming me to be here, Sharon. It's a joy to spend time with you. And thank you for this opportunity to share a little bit about the honor that Hawaii Business Magazine bestowed upon me and 19 of my peers throughout the community. So each year for about the past, I believe it's 15 years. It might be 14. But Hawaii Business Magazine has looked across the landscape of people doing work across Hawaii. And they have selected people who they think are visionaries or leaders, people who have aspirations for progress for Hawaii. And they do this thing each year where they just honor these people. They do a little bit of like a short bio some information about the work that they've done and just ask about their aspirations. And so in November, I learned that I'd been nominated and I hadn't actually known about the nomination until I was selected. So when I got the email that said I was selected, I kind of was like, oh, it's worth that they're asking for an interview. Do they always interview nominees? And I had to like reread the email and I was like, wait, I've been selected. That's why they're interviewing me. So it was a real pleasure and it's honored to be selected. And it's something that people can do for peers that they've worked with for years or worked with anew, but someone that they believe deserves recognition for their efforts for the state and for the people of the state. Well, congratulations. We are so proud of you, very proud of you. And I'm loving that we have Leslie Oren and Daphne Barbie-Wilton. And Leslie, you're a prosecutor. Tell us about your day. Tell us what happened with a black woman prosecutor. Thank you, Sharon, so much for having me on with these incredible women, all of whom I admire. And I just first wanna say how proud I am of you, Rachel. It gives me great pleasure and joy to receive the messages from people all across our network and those out of our network celebrating you. So Sharon, thank you so much for having me on today. I am an attorney, a social worker and an advocate for social justice and change. And I am Hawaii's only black female prosecutor. And, you know, it's important for me to be, you know, I started my profession in law enforcement working at a police department when I used to live in Texas. And when the opportunity became available to return to law enforcement, I had to be very honest about my feelings as a advocate for social justice. And so I'm very passionate about the work that I do. And I am a justice reform attorney. And really what does that mean to me? That means occupying spaces that were typically designed to keep us out and typically designed to keep us from progressing. And so as a social worker, there was so much that I could do in advocating for my community and for my clients. And as a justice reform prosecutor, what I like to do is look at how can we use my power as a prosecutor to help heal the harm that crime causes? If we are not thinking about our justice-involved folks and only thinking about jail as an option, we're not looking at how we heal the harm. So I like to try to use my experience as a social worker to be able to connect people to resources. That's one of my biggest things is connecting people to resources and also looking out for the community's good, how can we help those impacted by violence? How can we help those that are the ones that are committing the harm to really move our community forward? So it's fast-paced every day, but it's worth it to me so that people see someone that looks like me in their situation. And so I can bring my whole self and all my experiences with me to help in the pursuit of justice. That's wonderful. And you're the only Black woman prosecuting the state of Hawaii? I am, I am. And I encourage any of the listeners and the people that are watching, this profession is open to you. It didn't used to be, but you're looking at three Black female attorneys. And I hope that by seeing us, you see this as an option for yourself. I would love to not be the only one because I think that our diversity is our strength and we have so much to bring to the table and all of the different venues that we are, that we, the spaces that we occupy. And you're located in Maui? I am, so I work for the county in Maui, state of Hawaii, and it's really a blessing because I spent time here growing up. So to be able to return in this capacity to serve my community, it's surreal and it's an opportunity to advance justice in a different way that really looks at the system holistically. Thank you, thank you. And we have, you know, Daphne Barbie, my friend, my colleague, you know, she's not my colleague, but she is just been there with me from day one. And Daphne, could you just tell us a little bit about you? You are the number one civil rights attorney here in Honolulu. I'm happy to go to this entire state. Tell us about what you do. Thank you, Sharon. First of all, I'd like to congratulate and thanks Leslie Matthew and Rachel James. They are paving the way for many other people to come as it should be. And so we let everybody know that there are African-American women attorneys in Hawaii that are working hard and making sure justice is properly enforced. And so thank you guys for being here. It's wonderful. And so you were asking about what to like to practice here. Is that the correct question? Yeah, the practice here and you are a civil rights attorney, right? Yeah, so of course. I've been in civil rights for forever. I was born in civil rights. In fact, I was doing a speech on civil rights and a young man was talking and he's a professor and he said, the students asked, so when did you join the Black Lives Matter? He said, I was born in the Black Lives Matter. So same for me as civil rights. So I was born in the civil rights. My father is civil rights activist, legislator. He filed lawsuits desegregating the North, not the South. And came over to Hawaii. I was one of the first, well, I was the first Black female in the public defender's office many, many, many years ago before many of you were even, before all of you were born, tell you the truth. And so I've been practicing. I was on the first of the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission and then I was a civil rights commissioner. Then I was on the EEOC as the first senior trial attorney where I prosecuted civil rights cases, not only in Hawaii, but in Samoa, in Guam, in Saipan, as well as Hawaii. But moving forward, if I could just say, I am just so proud of everybody. We are gathering a lot of African-American attorneys now. At one point it was just six of us and now it's like 25 to going on 30. And many of them are women. I'd say 12 are women. And I'm just really happy to see this expansion. I am too. I'm so thrilled about this forum and very thrilled. Rachel, I want to ask you, what made you go to law school? Thanks, Sharon. I didn't have an aspiration for the law. It was a, I've always wanted to help people. Like my default is that I want to be of service. And I think that can happen in a lot of different ways. And so I had done a number of different, both like paid and volunteer things. So I'd worked with some homeless communities. I'd done some work with veterans. I worked in Congress for a bit. And I thought that when I was working in Congress, I was like, this is going to be the place. This is where laws are made. This is where change happens. And I had a rude awakening. I was like, this is a mess. And I remember running into so many attorneys and like they just had this way of speaking about things. And I'd have some friends, one good friend particularly who was a professor at the law school and was like, Rachel, you should really think about this. But I certainly had a disposition that like attorneys were just out to get people. But the more I learned about the profession and the more I articulated my desire to like really help humanity heal. And I come from like an environmental justice background. The law just seemed like the place like I needed to be. So when I applied and got accepted, that felt like affirmation that this was a path that I should be pursuing. And then certainly attending Richardson has just been an incredible blessing and continued affirmations that I'm doing the work that I meant to do. Great, wonderful. Leslie, I want to circle back to you. Do you have any suggestions for African-American women who want to go to law school? I do. And that's actually where I met the Rachel James and in law school, I also met my mentor, Daphne Barbie-Wooten. And for those that are thinking about law school, do it. For so long, we were prohibited from even being able to apply and if you applied, you would get rejected because you weren't allowed to be in that space. My mom just celebrated her 70th birthday and it's such a miracle. I'm so proud because I almost lost her at the beginning of this year and she's my hero. 70 years ago, schools were, there was segregation. So for those that are thinking about law school, I say do it. I say that everything that can be, that's brought to you can be conquered. Law school is hard. You have to find your circle. And I found my circle in these women and I found my circle even with you, Sharon and the events that you host that really uplift and empower women and just know that one of my mentors told me, Leslie, everything that you have, you already need. And so when it comes time to take your tests, when it comes time to take the bar, know that you can do it. And I had to go with that mindset because we have to be very honest. This system is still getting accustomed to seeing black female attorneys and this system is still getting accustomed to seeing us show up in spaces. But if you have that inkling, do it. Another one of my mentors said, when I signed my name and she's a judge, she signed her name judge, people listen. I do not want them to listen to me, but I do want them to listen to the same underserved communities that I've been serving and dedicating my life's work to. So if it meant going to law school to do it, investing that money, moving away from my family and doing that, it was important to me to show people that it could be done and prove it to myself to be the first attorney in my family. And so now other people have, they won't say, I'm the first, they can see it, they can do it. I also say, get involved in your local chapters. Rachel and I served on the National Black Law Student Association together. That's an incredible group to be connected with that really understand the struggles and the successes. So find your network, believe in yourself and go do it. Yeah, I remember having a business mixer, sisters in part in Hawaii had a business mixer and there was a picture of nothing but attorney stand there. There was Daphne, you and Judge Sandra Sims and Red Salta, who's moved to New York. And it was just so thrilling to see these powerful people. I think Andre, your husband's an attorney also, Daphne in the picture. So this is what people have been asking me to ask you ladies, but I want to direct this question to Daphne. Are you treated differently because you are African-American? Depends. When I first started, some people, because I'm light-skinned didn't know I was African-American. So they felt free to say racial, prejudicial negative things about African-Americans. Some of them were in high positions. You'd be surprised what people say behind your back. And I would just stop them and I would tell them that that's discriminatory and they'd look at me like, what's your problem? And I'd tell them why and a lot of them were not white. A lot of them were different races in Hawaii. And I had this one guy, he was Hawaiian, he was going off about black men, although he didn't call him black men, okay? And I told him to stop it. I told him if he was in the South, he'd be treated as though he was African-American. He needs to realize that and he needs to stop being so prejudiced because the way he treated African-American men is how he would be treated if he was in mainland Hawaii. So there was a lot of discrimination, I'd say back in the 80s, 90s. It kinda, when Judge Sander Sims finally was the first female African-American to point it as a judge, I think a lot of the people in high places, well, they didn't say anything to her face, but they kinda mellowed out because if you're in a conference room with other judges or other powerful people and Judge Sander Sims is there, they tempered their remarks. Just by her presence, they tempered those remarks. Moving to present day, I think they're more accustomed to African-American women in powerful places because you have a vice president who is now an African-American female. You have Michelle Obama who was an African-American female, married to President Obama who was from Hawaii. And we also have beautiful, wonderful, strong African-American attorneys now, Stacy Abrams and Attorney General of New York, Latisha James going after the prior president, 45. We also have Fannie T. Willis who's Fulton County prosecutor looking into election fraud, soliciting election fraud by the former administration, 45 and Trump. And these are powerful women because you could get an indictment against someone who did wrong. I'm so proud of these women. Yeah, I'm very, very proud of these women. It just makes me feel so good. And Rachel, I wanna ask you, any advice to those aspiring to become attorneys? I'd certainly echo much of what Leslie shared. Like if you have an inkling or an interest to do it, finding your network is definitely important. But really understanding why, like law school is hard. And for people who say that it's not, either they haven't gone or when they were there, I don't know what they were doing. But I mean, it's hard for a reason because the pursuit of the law, like getting that knowledge with an understanding that you then will have just a responsibility of navigating somebody else's life. And whether that's because you're advocating for civil rights or fighting for social justice or if you're trying to be the most zealous advocate for your client, like someone is placing the livelihood of their lives in your hand. And so I think having that keen understanding as you pursue law is important. So that would be probably my biggest advice. And then to just trust your intuitions. I think people often can approach the law with an understanding of its rigidity, but perhaps a little less understanding of its flexibility. And then also, particularly for black women or just women of color who are pursuing the law, like the law wasn't made for us. It was made by white dudes. And so like it wasn't made by white dudes who cared about us. Like it was actively made to just devalue us as human beings. And so without understanding, I think it's really important to challenge conceptions and to ask questions about why things are the way they are. Cause it's very likely that they should be changed. But I think the law can be intimidating where you kind of think like, I just got to learn this thing and just encourage people to question it because there's more flex in it. If we are asking those questions and to Leslie's point of bringing our full self to spaces, it's important to introduce that diversity. So we don't need to come into the system to conform to it. I actually think us being here is necessary for it to change. Okay, that's amazing. Okay, you're right. That's on, it's on, you know, Leslie, you and I had a deep conversation yesterday. And I want to talk about that briefly. Have you suffered from being tight-cast? Yes, and I have to, my spirit was full whenever I heard everyone speak, but when Rachel very pointedly said that this system was not designed for us, it was not designed with us in mind. And I recall several occasions, but one particularly sticks out in my mind. And that was when I was, because I previously served as one of the attorneys for our county council, and then I came over to the prosecutor's office. And I was so excited for my first trial, not as an advocate or a social worker, but as the attorney, the prosecutor, and I had all my exhibits and everything ready. And they said, the defense attorney said, well, we need to make sure that the witness exclusionary rule is invoked. And what that means is if you're gonna testify at a trial, you cannot be present because you need to be outside of the courtroom. And I said, oh, that's right. Check that off my list. And he said it again. And I said, well, who else doesn't need to be in here? He pointed to me. The judge says, you mean the prosecutor? So it's, this system was not designed with me in mind. It was designed, and we have to look at the history of policing. Why did policing start? And it was designed as slave catching, as to keep those that wanted equal rights and equal protection to keep them from rioting and demanding those rights. And so every day when I walk in, what am I wearing? How is my hair? What is my, it's more than just, do I know the law? Am I ready to fiercely advocate? And that happened just a couple of years ago. And so, every day there's something, but what I'm empowered by and inspired by is women like you that we can get in spaces and share our authentic feelings and say, you know what, I have to keep going. Because if I don't keep going, there's no more representation like us in this system in Hawaii. So I understand the heavy burden. It is a heavy burden. But to whom it much is given, much is expected. And I believe in God. And I know that this is the path that I'm supposed to be on. So he's got to keep me strengthened every day. But I think about the people. I'm in this role because I got into law enforcement. My best friend was murdered by her husband, stabbed to death. And I have a passion for ending violence against women, bringing communities together, enhancing services, and building community with unlikely allies. And so to that other attorney that mistook me for someone that didn't deserve to be there, I'm here. I'm staying here because we have work to do. Well, that's what it's all about, ladies, stay present. It's all about staying present and keep rising. You know, rise up and keep rising. And Daphne, I want to come back to you. And I know that your father was a civil rights attorney. So you're an author of this book, Justice for All. Do you have any other mentors? Let's see. A lot of them are on the mainland. And here in Hawaii, as far as mentors, I have friends. And it's okay, Daphne. You can mention your mentors that are on the mainland. They'll be watching this too. Okay, well, like Leslie said, it's important to have a connection to the African-American attorneys on the mainland because a lot is going on there. They have black judges, senators. I mean, they're working it, working it, working it. And so I'm part of the National Bar Association. So in fact, this weekend, they're gonna have a little session on black women lawyers. And so you meet and you network and you hear their stories and you work with them and they work with you. Very supportive people. And they wanna know what's going on in Hawaii because we don't have an African-American judge anymore. We used to, but we don't. And it's been too long. It's time that we get one. And in fact, we even had the Chief Justice meet with the African-American Lawyers Association to encourage people to apply for a judgeship. So Leslie and Rachel, hey, it's your turn, it's your turn. But I would say Michelle Obama is, although I have met her once, but I don't call her up and say, hey, what's going on? She definitely is a mentor with her wonderful book and also, of course, Vice President Kamala Harris is a mentor and she also wrote a book which I encouraged all my book clubbies to read because she's the most powerful woman in America. And I think it's understated to certain people but not to African-American women. We're watching, we're watching and we're learning. And I'm very proud of her accomplishments. I'm proud to have an African-American female attorney as Vice President of the United States of America. And I do worry for her because I just read in the paper today that an armed man was captured outside of her house with a gun and rifle and ammunition. And I'm very upset about the trend going on in America, this hate towards women of color, Asian-American women and Atlanta where Stacey Abrams, a strong woman is there trying to make sure that our voter rights are not repressed again going back to Jim Crow days. But to have this guy shoot up and kill six Asian-American females, I think it's racism. I think it's genocide and also think it's sexism to the nth degree. And this needs to stop. And because if it doesn't, then you have people who think that they are entitled to do away with civil rights, do away with the progress that people have made with regards to race and sex. And that's not gonna happen. But anyways, I just bring that up that we still have problems but we're gonna keep going. Like Leslie says, we're gonna keep going and keep going. That's right, we're gonna stay present. So in closing ladies, we have, Daphne, you've mentioned three black women, powerful black women who were not silent or silence. And you mentioned Stacey Abrams and Michelle Obama, our forever first lady and our madam vice president, Harris. So I wanna start with you, Rachel. And then Leslie, you can close. Describe how you exercise your power. Rachel, how do you exercise your power? That's an excellent question. I find that, I'll try to be brief but that there's a little bit of a story. In law school serving alongside Leslie in the Black Law Student Association, we had done a community service event at like an alternative high school. And we were meeting with students who were in this program, like street law. And I remember we walked in and there's a gentleman, an older black man who looked like he was like the maintenance person and he was just floored that so many black law students were walking into the building. He was like, I've never seen so many black attorneys. And then we met with the students and I remember there was a student there who was Hispanic background and we chatted for a while and she like shared with me that like I actually wanted to become a attorney but like I didn't really think I could but she's like, I've never seen a black attorney and now seeing you like I think I could be an attorney. And so that for me was like I understood that power was showing up. I'm gonna get a little emotional because this is a story, sorry. So I understood that like me being in spaces and just letting people know that I'm a black attorney or at the time I was a black law student that like they didn't have to know me. They didn't know how hard I worked. They like they didn't have to know anything other than like a black female attorney can exist. Like I remember the look on the gentleman's face and like he was near tears. And then I remember this girl like I could see her mind working and like I could do this thing too. And she didn't have to know like where she needed to go to school. Like it wasn't all those kind of nitty gritties like how do I get there? But like that she could understand that this was a possibility for her. That for me showed me like the power of showing up. And so I take that seriously. And sometimes people ask like, well, Rachel, why are you here and why are you there? Because it's a place I haven't been before and I need to be there. And that's really the long and short of it. Like my power is just showing up but being intentional about that and sometimes being uncomfortable but knowing that it's necessary to let people see me. So you know that's a good point because I had a show on Sister Park that being was never stopped showing up and we can never ever stop showing up. And so in a minute or less, let's take us home. We describe how you exercise your power in 30 seconds or less. Excellent, I echo Rachel. It is showing up, show up. If there's not room at the table, bring your own chair. If they're not gonna give you the table, build your own because you deserve to be there. But the social worker and me is not gonna let you get away with saying self care. Take care of yourself. Be honest with yourself about how you're feeling. And this time especially, it's okay not to be okay but choose joy daily. Love yourself, believe in yourself. You are worthy and reclaim your time, your space, your mind and know that you can do this and you do so much just by showing up. So I'm so thankful that you gave us an opportunity to show up today. I can't tell you how this has rejuvenated my spirit. I'm gonna have a pep in my step when I go back into court tomorrow and I believe in you ladies, I love you ladies. There's no separation in this distance or space. We're here with each other and for each other. Thank you ladies. Thank you Daphne. Thank you Rachel, Leslie, ladies keep showing up, keep rising Aloha.