 Wydwch chi'n mynd i'r cwmhysgau. Rwy'n cais i'n meddwl Tessa i'r holl ffawr o'r pryd yn gweld y pethau ac rydyn ni'n ddiddordeb ar hyn o'r cyfeisio ar gyfer cyfweld. Rydyn ni'n rhaid i'r ddweud yma yn ymddangos ymweld i'w ddiddordeb ar hyn o'r cyfweld. Rydyn ni'n ddiddordeb ar hyn o'r cyfweld. Rydyn ni'n ddiddordeb ar y cyfweld. Rydyn ni'n ddiddordeb ar hyn o'r cyfweld. Mae'r cwysig o'r cyffredin ni'n gwybod i'r cwysig o'r cwysig o'r ffordd. Mae'n gweithio'r llyfr, o'r llyfr o Aberystwyth, yn ymwyaf, yn y Cwysig, yn y Ffwrdd, y llyfr, yn y llyfr. Mae'n gweithio'r llyfr, ac mae'n gweithio'r llyfr, ac mae'n gweithio'r cwysig o'r llyfr yma, mae'n gweithio'r llyfr, mae'n gweithio'r llyfr, ac mae'n gwneud dy'n gweithio'n ddefnyddio i'r grifith ciydd eich wlad, arbod wedi gael Punkt 5 ym youtube? Rydym yn rotate? Mae'n ymweld fyddeol, mae roi i, Ie wedi bwysig creu cymaint gwrs... жyw hun i pop Fuus, mewn fóleio a phob angen ar y cyddog angen y maen leading Ac mae'n ddechrau'n ei chwanhau ein ffg o'r ysgol. Mae'r gwneud hynny. Yn gwneud hynny. Mae'n ddiddordeb yn 30 yma. Chwethech chi i'n gwneud yn gyflawn i'n meddygau ac mae'n gweithio'n meddyl. Mae'r cwmwysigol yn ddi-ddiwedd. Mae'n gweithio'n cymunedol. Mae'r sefydlu, mae'n gweithio'n gwneud i'r programau sydd gennym iawn cyflawn a'r cyflawn i'r cyflawn i Wales. ac mae wedi cael mwynfodol iawn a'r dwylo'r dismysgol yma, i bobl i'r pobr, i bobl i'r pobr i'r dweud. A mae, a pobl yn iawn, yna'n gydag i'r cyf Everywhere. Felly, rhaid i ddweud i ceisio fod y cyfeiriau, ond yw ymarferio �ztod o'r bwysig, ac o edrych gyda'n gwneud y prosiectau i ddechreu. Rwy'n fwy risio i ddechrau'r prosiectau i ddechreu. Mae'n ddiwedd fel healurau. through policy and theories that I've used in the program, and then I'm gonna talk about the program and give you some of the quotes, particularly just a few quotes from some of the countries in that course. So, all of us have a context and I think it's really important as a researcher and a mindfulness practitioner and trainer to know your context and to state your context. Rydw I gael mwy'n amser hynny cos mai yw y nesaf â'r ffordd. That's where we come from in the forms of what we do. Maybe speaking to what Joe was saying as well. Rydw I live in Wales. I like road biking, as you can see. When I was young, I lived in Croyden. I lived in quite a working class area. I defined my place of origin, like a working class family, and I cycled round Croyden. It's quite a thing for me now that I moved from the streets of Croyden I speak Welsh as well, which is apparently unusual for people from Croydon, I don't know. I have a practice so obviously the practice that I have done informs my work and I started off with a Gwenchor course. I started off doing yoga and then I actually trained as a yoga teacher. I trained, I taught yoga for 15 years alongside my main job in Wales and as a passionate course and then the standard 10-day retreats for a few years I've also done the mindfulness training course as well. I've got a practice that has a Buddhist context as well as the secular mindfulness context a'r context fighor ffrindwydd i'r gweithio. Rym ni'n rhaid i gweithio ysgol ffwrdd yw ysgol. Rhywbeth ychydig. Fe wneud hynny, mae'r gweithio i'r rhywbeth, ac mae'n gweithio i'r hynny, mae'r gweithio i'r hyn yn ôl. Ar y ffrindwydd, mae'n gweithio i'r hyn ar hyn ar hyn oedd y cofau sydd ar y cyfarfod yng nghymru. Rwy'n gweithio i gweithio i'r hyn, ac mae'n gweithio i'r hyn y gweithio i'r hyn. mae'n gweithio y tu fantau neu amdd zamanaeth. Mae'n gweithio o fewn ffordd y model wych. Mae'r gwaith a'mdd cymdeithas. Mae'r blaen lle o fynd yn gweithio. Felly mae'r iawn yn y mod i'w maen nhw. Felly mae'n gweld yn cynnig. Dyma'r sylwyddon yn ymgyrch yn yr unig ond dyma. Fy fydd eu rhan fod yn y ryw i yn gwasanaeth hefyd. I've worked for shelter and I've worked as a VSO and the picture here is with Ronda McGee who currently is really doing excellent work around colour insight and mindfulness so I'm kind of positioning myself there as somebody who works on these issues, has an interest in these issues. I ran a social enterprise in Wales working on environmental issues, my last job but now I'm a researcher which is kind of strange for me, well no it's wonderful, it's a wonderful opportunity and here I am at the Amsterdam conference which happened earlier this year which is one of the big mindfulness research conferences and we had a little with some people actually that are here today and some wonderful people here, Christina and David Forbes and Nick all kind of working on different aspects of mindfulness and how it can make a difference in the world so that's wonderful so all of that informs everything you're going to see and I'm going to add another thing which is a bit vulnerable for me I have to say I could even feel it now so I'll just name that is another key thing that informs that I need to tell you informs the work and my approach is that I have a high adverse childhood experience score and some of you might know about the ACE score if you don't you might want to go and have a look because it's a list of questions that you fill in and it looks at things like whether you experience divorce, whether you experience emotional or physical abuse and if you've got a score on this over four then it means that the statistics are kind of against you in terms of what might happen next in your life so I mean these are a few graphs if you've got a high ACE score then you're more likely to have early teen sexual experiences you're more likely to have underlying chronic depression more likely to be raped as you grow up it's yeah it's not very cheery I have to say more likely to have a suicide attempt and kind of fits with everything else really more likely to be prescribed with antidepressants now probably the reason I'm standing in front of you now is because I've got a high level of resilience which I got from my family who were very resilient but there's also a lot of trauma there as well and if you're going to look at this you need to look at the two together you know resilience and ACE scores go together so why am I bringing why is it important to me to bring this up because when we're thinking about mindfulness or and what we're using this for sometimes we think quite rightly well how can we help the individual you know how can we do something that is going to give deal with the suffering deal with the individual quite and a lot of the work has been around that a lot of the work has been around that and and that's brilliant and I myself have benefited my practice certainly helped me work with trauma and then it's kind of moved forward again one step forward well okay that's good but how do we actually look more widely about how how people are impacted you know why well let me say there's two things here one is like why people end up having adverse childhood experiences and can we do anything about that number one and number two can we look at the wider issues of adverse childhood experiences and then what that leads to because you know most people in prison most people in prison are some great work by a guy called Gabor Mate I was listening to this week I'd recommend him to anybody interest I see a few nods you know who really is very interested as like well if you look at most people in prison you know a lot of them have had adverse childhood experiences they've got high levels of adverse childhood experiences so we've really got to look at that wider social implications of adverse childhood experience which is not just about giving the mindfulness or giving the mindfulness in the context in that wider context so I hear some of you see some of you nodding and I'm yeah you hear that that's great and the other thing that we need to do is um is consider new ways of working and this is a quote from John Kabat-Zinn as you can see in a conversation with Angela Davis in East Bay Meditation Centre and she was saying well yeah she's actually been in prison she's an activist some of you might know her she's been in prison and she said it's great I'm kind of loosely remembering what she said she said you know it's great doing mindfulness in prisons John but does it really address the wider kind of social issues you know and how can we actually do that how can we address those issues and he said well we need to develop new models we need to incubate these new models you know are there strategic and tactical ways we can find to develop different orthogonal orthogonal he uses that word a lot John Kabat-Zinn orthogonal models that work better so that's kind of the invitation to us while we're looking at this wider debate is we need to be we need to be developing being creative making mistakes testing models so the work which I've been doing has been trying to address this trying to kind of find new ways of working look at problems differently looking at new ways of working okay and that's mainly through Abriswith University so we're a bit out on the edge as well so this work maybe a little bit out on the edge and and also the University of Birmingham I'm now actually writing up a PhD which will incorporate most of the work that you're hearing now some of this work is slightly older looks a bit dull as well I have to say I'm looking for something that might look a bit more yeah funky in the next stage okay so when I started the research and even today when when we start to ask this question and some of this has come up already how can mindfulness address these wider issues we all care and we want this to do a little bit more maybe when it's doing so I'm just going to quickly this just quickly show you that this this area is huge because as some people I said I think Jamie said it already we could just we need to make it more accessible you know that's that's really important that we make this work as it is more accessible and I'm using nbsr nbct is a a kind of shortcut for secular mindfulness we need to make sure that trainers actually represent a wider demographic not just delivering it to a wider demographic but actually representing which the two are obviously linked a wider demographic we I've worked in sustainability education for a long time we need to really consider the frames that we use in any training are they the best frames you know are they using examples that would support our environmental change I mean people might think this is a small point but actually the frames you hear all the time really tell you you know really informing you about your world so I've got my nbsr training book and I think there is one about taking the rubbish out in my book anyway I don't know if it's changed but yeah we need to change that that needs to say taking sourcing my recycling we need to reinforce these positive frames all the time do we just look at mindfulness do we there's lots of papers which just attempt to prove that mindfulness does make people pro-social that that's how it is um and yeah I'm not sure that the evidence is is is as strong as we would like in the way that we would like it do we need to revitalize it in terms of its you know Buddhist ethics as it lost its ethical roots that's another way people look at it do we need to emphasize the compassion now the compassion is a topic I hear about a lot there was someone over here talking to me about it just now um I mean great intention um yeah and I think we need to really look at that is that what we need to do maybe we need to deliver an advanced or second tier mindfulness after someone's done nbsr maybe they can do another course on top of that that looks at wider issues well that's great too isn't it because it kind of expands the thinking maybe we should develop nbsr for people who are creating change activists or just people working in organizations trying to develop corporate corporate social responsibility anybody who's out there and trying to make a difference maybe we could do do things to help them with mindfulness maybe we could develop nbsr for people responsible for policy and change and we've already heard Dan and Jamie discuss one way that we might do that and this is this is just a few I have three slides with things we could be doing that like around this in this area and some of it look quite small some of it look quite big some of it conflicts with each other you know some people think so we should be doing something but there's lots that can be done in this area and there's a huge amount of research that can be done in this area meanwhile and this is the thing that kind of blows my mind a little bit as well a lot of the the research you know on mind on emotion on things that inform our programs well there's huge amounts of interesting things happening in those areas as well so actually we know we don't actually agree on what we're not we don't actually not agree but there are many different definitions of mindfulness there is no agreement on what mindfulness is there actually is no particular agreement on what mind is or perception or cognition which actually came as a bit of a surprise to me as well as to how much debate there are in this in in these areas as for emotion I got a book out the other day with all about 100 papers on you know what is emotion and really and I've done lots of reading before that because I included it in my course but there's not really much agreement on what emotion is in fact there's a lot of disagreement on what emotion is emotion regulation similarly the function of the default mode network that a lot of us kind of take for granted in our training actually there's people can test that what what what is actually there for and whether it's more social or self-referential the amygdala there's people don't all agree on what the amygdala does and the big thing really is well you know you have these pictures in neuro imaging and like who's actually putting the theories onto these pictures they're pictures you know and there's a lot of kind of very interesting discussion about that out there about you know who's making who's doing what relative to these images who's saying what okay so that's the context okay so with all that in mind my particular context has been has moved from could just looking into where the mindfulness creates more pro social or pro environmental behaviors to like okay well actually what could what could we do here and I work in Wales um Wales is a great country and it's quite a small country and it's also one of the few countries that's actually put legislation in which requires the public sector to be more sustainable it has a something called the future generations and well-being act and so and that includes changing ways of working them changing ways of working so they've really appreciated that they need to change ways of working in order to get a paradigm shift in in sustainability and well-being so my context has been there and um the thing is what you quickly realise and I did work in the public sector for many years so I kind of had a sense of this is the world has changed since the civil service since policy makers kind of policy making was designed you know policy making was designed to regulate and count things you know just tell people what to do and to count numbers but the world has become really complicated you know we've got five as already been mentioned you know we've got these wicked problems you do something over here and something goes wrong over here there's multiple stakeholders it's really complicated out there meanwhile um the job has become much more relational still quite hierarchical system as we know but um it's become much more a job of relating um 90 you know 70 to 90% of their jobs are talking to each other this is funny oh let's see if this works shall we um did this weird okay kind of flips it's weird right so just just have a little look this is a little um this is a little snippet from a meeting in keridigion where I live um a health board having a meeting so just consider this for a second oh it's nice okay so they're having a meeting this is a board meeting it's really important now just let's see if we can pause it there bronglies hospital they've had to close down they they're wondering about beds they haven't got enough beds and it is an emergency um an A&E department I think just closed down and they're having a conversation um now it does this look to you like a good way to have a conversation you know to have a conversation about something that's really important where you need the people to be like really relaxed and to really be able to talk properly to each other and maybe come up with some creative solutions and you could maybe see you know they're hunched behind their computers there's this strange row of seats opposite them that are empty um you look at that just look at them they're slightly stressed we know that this is not a um a good way to operate so why why do we still do it is so we might say what actually happens is because these situations are so stressful you know people end up on the other end of them kind of having small breakdowns and then maybe we give them nbsr to kind of wipe them up and put them back in that's probably a little bit but you know I do feel quite strongly about it because really what I want to do is stop having meetings like this then make people stressed would seem a much much better thing to do and meanwhile very relevant to this is yeah I'll just a couple of points um I mean I I there's a whole bit of theory that I kind of is the basis for the program that I'm doing um you know theory on emotion and cognition is changing very fast and um it's gone beyond emotional intelligence this idea that emotion and cognition interact so strongly that demarcation between them um turns out to be a fruitless exercise in the end we must talk of an emotion cognition amalgam and so it's not about heart and head it's about heart head and I know there's you know that that will come into the mind from us too but mood and thinking are completely interrelated and so that is really important for the people who are making our policy to understand really important um here's a picture of Angela Merkel with with yeah Putin and it's quite a famous picture because he allowed his dog to come in knowing that she um had a very bad experience with dogs when she was younger so he knew that it would stress her out and you can see she looks slightly nervous and for me this is you know a lot of um our politicians a lot of people um who were making policy they they've got emotions and these are really in effect how they are interacting and how they are doing the work we need them to do so it's really important that they understand all this that they really understand emotion and cognition and we use the best science that we can to help them meanwhile there's a whole load of work around bias and we understand what we understand the mind to be that we understand the mind to actually be more predictive than reactive there was some discussion about um us being less reactive and of course mindfulness you know puts that pause in and that's great but actually there's some science out there that actually probably fits better in terms of for me anyway and and I've heard others say so too in terms of how the mind operates it's much more predictive and that it will actually create bias and this um this is problematic for um basic decisions that we make that will tend to look for information that confirms what we already know rather than seeing new information and it also has an effect on unconscious bias because um you know we will um prejudice will come from that relative to you know all sectors gender race sexuality and and so that's all in there so that's a really important shift in how science in is starting to look at the mind which could really inform how we deliver mindfulness okay I'm a bit am I all right with time okay so on the basis of all that for the last seven years actually I've been working in Welsh government um in some relation to this um to this act um and now ending up uh with a phd piece of work I didn't ever feel on it and I've worked as a research associate on it um but finally doing a phd um which was with the scs the senior civil service this is Catae's probably hardly any of you have heard this is where this is in Wales the world's civil service a lot of them are um we have people who work opposite to this building as well um part of the university is just around it so this we call it mindfulness based behavioural insights and decision making uh because they were able to kind of take that you know it's not mindfulness for stress management so they were eight if I called it mindfulness for stress management then a lot of people wouldn't have come on it the managers wouldn't come on it that I was working with and also it's not so much what they were interested in we had senior civil servants on it um the head of treasury as she was a champion for the program I did for the phd um deputy director of the NHS people working on tackling poverty in um really poor areas in Wales childcare you can see the education so really working on a wide areas eight sessions over three months possibly unusually for um a mindfulness course actually starting with the day's session very interactive so that's another way we can talk about mindfulness being more social is actually by making it more social in the learning um and I used some of these novel theories I was using behavioural economics theories of bias predicted mind constructed emotion and I was supported by caliper academy chrystam gd great guy who really has supported this work in the public sector um and with their app so they had a mindfulness app that they they did the practice that supported the practice um and I used novel research methods this is sense maker um and it through this they collected narratives over the three months period so almost like journaling and they had to signify themselves what these narratives were and I think the key takeaway I mean I could talk about this in itself was that we expected on the I'm going to put my glasses on we expected on this that I've got here maintaining relationships at the top in this first um triad reason thinking and taking action at the bottom and we were kind of expecting I was expecting that they were going to say most of their work was about reason thinking or taking action because that's what civil servants do but actually it's all about maintaining relationships that is what their job is and that's what they continuously said and what the data said and and then in interviews I said to them um so it looks like actually your whole job is about maintaining relationships and they said yes and I said it is now you say it and I said well that's kind of facilitating people isn't it embodied extended minds social and they were going yeah well it is yeah so what training do you get about cognition perception emotion because that's kind of what you're doing isn't it and they were like none none just kind of crazy isn't it when that's your job so I'm just going to give you a few quotes that came out of it that kind of really fits with that with what I've just said really so the first one so this is one of the senior directors in charge of the health service so this is before the course before the course I know I had a reputation as a fairly clear straight talking person who says it as it is not in a demeaning sense but with a clarity in fact I was described by a previous boss as their Rottweiler which I think I wore as a mark of pride for quite a number of years I was sent in to sort things out when they were not going particularly well but I think what I realised was how frustrated I got when despite the right answer being obvious and the next steps being obvious people didn't couldn't or wouldn't take them and what I didn't have was a wide enough range of responses to cope with continuing difficulty so I would find I would be repeating myself in subsequent meetings I would say well you haven't done that so try harder it's not actually a very satisfying message to deliver and I'm not sure it's a particularly helpful one to have but that's what my team would have seen of me it's fairly hard edged clear demanding not I hope unreasonably demanding approach but that's what would I I would have done and he cared he cared wasn't he didn't care since the course I've been putting myself in the other person's shoes and trying to see the world through their eyes and understand why they find these things difficult and why they or their organisations find these things difficult then trying to be much more empathetic rather than judgmental I didn't mention empathy once to them I we talked about how minds work about how bias works and perspective taking really kind of understanding the other person's perspective I actually find more about what's going on than you do in a more adverse serial relationship where people hide things or just share with you what they want you to see not the bit they are worried you might have a go at them about so we go on courses to how to have difficult conversations and you get a checklist but that is not the same as having a culture in which difficult clear conversations are expected and expected by the individual or the other half of that clear conversation so I think we shy away from making from it making the problems worse because you create a conversation when no one expects to have clear conversation so the programme included dialogue and it included mindful dialogue together with bias people looking at their bias as they had mindful dialogue so they and then they go out into the world and they would kind of practice then watching bias using the capacity of mindfulness whilst in conversation and strangely enough it makes them compassionate when they actually hear they actually realise what they've got to do someone's enabled them to kind of investigate that and they do something different so here's another one so I think my normal approach is to before the interaction decide what I want the outcome to be and then I'm going to channel everything towards that and if I don't get that then that will be a bad outcome or I will have to come back to it again or whatever so I've changed my approach I now start by asking the team what they think crazy in a meeting yesterday I listened to theirs used first and surprisingly decided that their approach was better than mine isn't that wonderful isn't that wonderful um so I didn't need to intervene this saves energy for me and them because they don't have to push back against the position I reached which is key isn't it if all your work is like this pushing to and pro it makes you stressed but if we actually create working relationships that are you know positive informed engaged then all's well so I'll finish I gotta cut just this this one maybe a couple more or not a couple more maybe one more so this is a classic one an email somebody sent to me I really dislike this person so really understanding that and I know I dislike this person I was about to reply with a really really nasty email back and I stopped myself and I reread the email in fact I reread it about two or three times and realized that I completely misread it and I'd instinctively replied if I'd just incorrectly instinctively replied I would have caused myself and others no end of grief that's me this is really interesting how you found a strong felt sense stopped you seeing information yes so I found particularly with this email I was kind of in an agitated state because this person had sent me something and I was reading it so fast I was looking for things to find fault with because we looked at confirmation bias how that interacts with mood and therefore how this just is inevitable and then they done the practice so they've been able to see that themselves I wanted to find things wrong in it and it was only in the second third reading where I kind of bought my agitation levels down so we've got that sense of regulation but then I could actually read it properly so that was a bit of an eye opener in terms of how we deceive ourselves I'm thinking how often have I done that how often have I not read something and then drawn a conclusion that's completely wrong and these small like micro interactions are what make up our policy making and what make up our political process and so this person working on poverty said I have a narrative that enables me to understand what's going on and not suppress my emotions but notice them and decide whether I want to behave in line with them or choose some other form of behavior I think I went with emotional suppression before but it's about noticing and understanding what it is and deciding whether you want to go with it or do something different I actually think this is all much more important than values I think it's actually in relation to some of my colleagues who I have a lot of respect for but I actually think because we need to you know we all share I did work on values before we all share the same values is how those values then get kind of enacted I think we do need to connect with ourselves and what we care about but then we need to be able to have difficult conversations and kind of work with how we're going to do that just just quickly despite the fact that I didn't really talk it wasn't a classic mindfulness course I wasn't talking about stress or about presence in the same way it still actually did incredibly well on all the mindfulness scores because Calypher Academy did it before and after survey and relative to all their other courses which were a little bit more traditional in the way they work this program actually did exceptionally well so I'm going to finish now this is a Australian jewel beetle and Australian jewel beetles this is a male Australian jewel beetle finish on a lighter but but point point the female is brown and bubbly and so the male is kind of designed because we're all just designed to see patterns to go for a brown and bubbly thing and the brown bubbly things across the Australian impact it out back these days are beer bottles so unfortunately the Australian jewel beetle is attempting to mate with jewel with beer bottles instead of the female and I put this in because it just sums up that the that the we're not really designed to see reality that's not actually what serves us in evolutionary wise mostly what serves us as being able to see patterns and that's what this program was about and that's what the works about and in a way that's for me what ultimately Buddhism is about you know how do we see how do we construct reality and how can we use that aspect to kind of really develop programs and ways of working that will make the change that we want to see thank you thank you Rachel I think this might be more of a confused comment now rather than a question I'm thinking about the examples that you gave you know in in the workplace and before I ever heard of mindfulness teaching people how to have difficult conversations and introducing motivational interviewing and all that sort of thing and good quality leadership and management training would have been designed around these principles so part of my question is is this just putting the mindfulness tag onto something that we've already got because we've mindfulness is the involved thing so that's one sort of question in my mind and then the other one is um we've talked about people in governance we're talked about policymakers we're talking about people in the workplace we're talking about mindfulness for stress is is it a different form of mindfulness depending on the context or I'd sort of come here with the sort of maybe naive understanding that mindfulness is something that we could easily explain and I think the first presentation um echoed my view of what I understood of mindfulness but as the afternoon's gone on I'm beginning to wonder if there are other strands to it that I haven't been aware of so I suppose the number the question is are we using the term mindfulness because it's the in thing to cover things that we've already had thank you thank you thank you for that question yeah both great well actually I I kind of see them a bit together really in the sense that yes um you know a lot of this work in terms of listening difficult conversations has gone on possibly not always in the public sector you know little bits in the public sector so my context sometimes with all due respect you know they're different to other organisations so there's a specific context there but also my experience of the kind of work um that you're discussing is it doesn't necessarily include developing capacities in metacognition so a first person inquiry whenever into um what's happening in my own mind as I'm having these difficult conversations usually the work so it they actually work really well together you know actually exploring the felt sense you know there's there's very I haven't come across very much work that actually builds capacities for exploring the felt sense alongside those management type listening type work that you've done and then putting that in the context of bias which has a maybe a social context and I I completely agree with you what what we actually need are trainers who can work in a particular context understand that context understand the wide net of mindfulness and then design something that's going to work in that context so I think the whole thing is a lot more complicated than maybe some of my colleagues if we really want to make change thank you very much for the um excellent presentation I just want to go back to one of the slides when you said there was a lack of consensus and certainty over many of the definitions of psychological components and cognitive components I'd like to add that the default mode network DMN which is the the part of our brain that's active when we're not actually doing anything there has been research over the last two or three years that's taken that thinking forward both with traditional forms of meditation um and with secular mindfulness so I think that's that's a field and it's actually revealing some new things about meditation and mindfulness generally but the the idea that there are these areas which are which and I'd agree completely there's a lack of consensus over the definition of mindfulness we don't have we don't have measures for compassion within the cognitive community that everyone agrees with it it draws out the question how can we then understand the effectiveness of meditation and mindfulness if we don't have the instruments to measure the effect of mindfulness yeah and um yeah thank you for that um exactly yes how do we having that is the question isn't it and can we I'd love personally uh you know to have research bigger research centres maybe with a wider kind of remit more kind of um more of these areas I don't see a lot of um research that actually widens widens it out um a little bit in terms of yeah we've got this issue about the actual definitions and then about the scales and how does this all fit together and how can we take it out of the well-being right it's always in the well-being on the mental health kind of frame um so I just think it needs um funding in different areas and in different ways to kind of look at look at this really and then how do we train our mindfulness teachers as well so that they actually can they actually be trained in in more of this and then be more kind of contact be able to deliver relative to a context and then how can we design research that will actually then tell us something about that and obviously qual quant research and widen up more social sciences coming in perhaps to actually um look at different ways of getting data out of out of this whole system yeah yes indeed well I'm putting it out there hi yeah um having uh had personal experience of quite a few meetings that looked like that nightmare that you described or put on the slide what would be your idea of how those sorts of meetings in the public sector should be taking place given that you're often talking about large numbers of people with very intense stakes in particular issues sitting in the room together vying for the control of a mic um yeah and really what I want to bring into the field is that those systems are based on a particular view of what the mind is you know that's based on a historical kind of view of rationality and hierarchy and that that's how we best come up with a decision um what I'd like to put in system is and then kind of what we did with the senior civil service is like well if the mind if it's more like this and when I say mind I mean extended social I don't want to be too neurocentric here um is like this yeah how do we design systems that are going to better facilitate that and really the piece that we can bring in is helping people to understand that and then design systems that work better according to that because what what's missing is that piece from my perspective that I could bring in is that they they're kind of not seeing their blind spot um that that this isn't the best way to work with the mind and it's that that's the bit that's the kind of the elephant in the room because we could start to look at people like google or whatever that we you know we hear all you know that they're constantly working in more innovative creative ways there's lots of examples out there of how that's done um but the civil service needs to find their own way really um and it's how we what we can bring in I think as mindfulness trainers to help to facilitate that and not to just maintain it by just kind of dealing with the stress aspect hello I'm Hilda and I come from Belgium and we work also in the public sector and I want you to ask to show the slide with the different issues that we have to um that you should interrogate your directors it's three slides ago I think okay thank you this one no no this one you want to see this one thank you thank you thank you