 Scrimmage three o'clock rock. I'm Jay Fiedel here on think tech and we're debuting a new show and new a new stream in series today Called changing the world for people who are interested in changing the world like sky cone Welcome to the show sky. Thank you so much. He's a committed activist. We talked about six months ago maybe and wow, that was like it was like Getting high and what and what sky was saying, but it was also an entire universe I walked I walked out of there thinking that well sky is sky is the limit. That's what I said Okay Today with the sky cone. We're gonna talk about what can we do about Donald Trump? It's a sort of an action question, but let's talk about first. Let's talk about Donald Trump What do you think happened and what do you think of Donald Trump sky? I think Donald Trump is an effective representation of where we are as a country of 250 years at least of active colonization of active imperial policy Donald Trump in my perspective was an effective Reaction to the last eight years of Barack Obama again representing the high-water mark of American liberalism And because when we look at Barack Obama Donald Trump's election, it wasn't just marginalized white folks in the rust belt It was the entire white echelon. They all classes were represented and so I The last thing that I want to feel is that Donald Trump is an external Imposition onto our country. We elected Donald Trump. This was a collective effort And the Democrats helped as well the left helped as well. And this is part of an extensive neoliberal policy that lasted Started at least 25 30 years ago. So let me throw a soccer ball in there And and that is you know, what about what I call psychosociology, or maybe you could call it social psychology The fact is that if I feed a given population a demographic enough crap on the media I can change the way they think I mean, that's the way politics works If I give you a million billion to do TV ads, I can win any any candidate Isn't that kind of what happened here? Isn't that kind of what happened with Barack Obama? and when we also look at the amount of Amount of capital that Donald Trump spent on advertising it paled in comparison to what Hillary spent What what did mr. Putin spend? Right, you know, I mean everybody was but I mean even even that conversation over the past month again has been incredibly problematic because from the left it was this hope that there was more of an intervention from Vladimir Putin Vladimir Putin didn't really have to do a lot It wasn't nearly the same sort of interventions that we've perpetuated in the global South like again Donald Trump is Is not Pinochet He did not dispose a democratically elected leader Yeah, it was waiting to happen the people who voted for Donald Trump were waiting for Donald Trump to come around And I agree with you and he represents something that they were after that they were waiting for and and he has arrived And they voted for him because he is what they were waiting for and it's really sad because what they were waiting for is not what you And I would have preferred but what they're waiting for again is a cultural response It's that if we're talking about the history of the United States there's been only one black face as a representative and Over the past eight years. We've seen effigies burned. We've seen Images lynched this has happened throughout the continent or United States in response to we've seen a lot of racial strife too on top of that Right without a doubt and that was also again I'm not defending Barack Obama whatsoever But the response to that I think helps to inform where we are now with Donald Trump and where that comes from But also what's incredibly problematic is that Donald Trump Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders all talked about Reviving employment programs when we know especially folks who are part of the think tech extended community That because of our relationship to technology and automation these jobs are not going to come back Yeah, Cole is never coming back Cole is not going to come back And when our steel isn't going to come back either large-scale industrial manufacturing of automobiles isn't going to come back And it doesn't make sense and it's not something we should actively advocate for we're in a unique position Historically where we can get to a point where potentially we can be post scarcity where because of the rate of automation because of our advancements in technology and Robotics and nanotechnology We should in theory be able to get to a point where it is no longer viable I mean we are here now where it is no longer to meet your subsist needs through this was obvious that you know The the vast middle out there was you know waiting for Donald Trump that the country has shifted so to speak And and so he he wins on the basis of an electorate perhaps that had not been that had not coalesced so much before in the past Why didn't we know it? Why didn't we see it? Why didn't the best journalistic and analytical minds in the country? See what was coming down the pike. Why would we all fool that way? Well, I think for the most part there were a number of individuals who were talking about like the the specter of Donald Trump Who have been talking about it for the past year who have been taking his candidacy and his run seriously? Mainly because the Democratic Party didn't seem like they were taking their position very seriously and running Hillary Clinton after a very charismatic 40-something-year-old black man to run this grandma imperialist Who is part of the historical legacy of the the Empire of the United States? It it didn't seem like the Democrats were taking a very serious So if they had taken it seriously sky and if they had found somebody to continue the and Exceed the Obama initiative, you know to to take a natural organic flow post Obama What would that person have looked like? I'm not entirely sure that we there's a condition that exists to Cultivate that person. I don't think the Democratic Party was interested in that. I don't think the electoral politics I mean the what we've seen from the party leads us to believe that that was really their intention If if we see the the logical extension of the past eight years We see an incredibly comfortable relationship with the fossil fuel industry We see an incredibly comfortable relationship with deportations with increasing police budgets And so I'm not entirely sure again. I think Hillary Clinton would have been a better A better individual to resist a more effective individual to resist than Donald Trump because Donald Trump is incredibly confident with his policy Is he's incredibly policy confident with his picks? there is unanimous agreement in his regime and in his administration that climate change does not exist Which is impressive which is incredibly impressive that they would be able to find that many people who are in positions of power Who all agree on this point? Yeah, I'm quite amazing actually It's it's I mean all the entire science science community is to the contrary and yet he persists and Apparently will continue and appointing all these people who agree with him on it But you don't seem upset you you don't seem concerned. I mean Well, what's your what's your worldview of this? Is this something we simply have to accept because the you know He got elected even though not by by the popular vote. I mean, how do you feel about its guy? I mean, it's obviously something that I'm concerned with something that Looking forward into the future over the next four years potentially over the next eight years it puts ourselves in an incredibly precarious situation, but where we ended with the Barack Obama administration Still again, if we had elected Hillary Clinton and we had a more centrist or liberal electorate We're still on track to losing two-thirds of me of the world's megafauna in the next ten years We're still on track to Again with deportations with income inequality these things that these policies were solidified under Barack Obama And so I wasn't particularly hopeful over the past eight years Especially when you come from a perspective of climate intervention, but you've been you've been Fighting for a more progressive more liberal approach on things and you're putting in your really Early discussion your whole life on it and being an activist in every way you could be And you know now the worst possible Candidate has been elected. What are you gonna do go to Canada? What what are you gonna do? Well, no, I mean go to Canada and deal with Justin Trudeau like like Trudeau is doing a lot of the same things Except with the pretty boy liberal face in the United States in North Dakota There was a temporary injunction in stopping the pipeline From the back in oil fields and the response from Canada because that's the largest supplier of petroleum in the United States Are the the tar sands they opened two large new? Pipelines and that was all from Justin Trudeau's regime. He defended it He said that he would use the state that he would not tolerate any sort of misgivings from the left or from indigenous populations and so no and we're talking if we're talking about Collapse and we're talking about ecological collapse and a regime the That the policy that they all agree on is ecocide There's nowhere to run There's no way to run you heard it here on think tank. I'm upset to hear you say that um But I'm not I'm not upset to think it. I'm not a set to feel it Because then we find ourselves in a situation where the conversation is now about immediacy Because we're all impacted by climate change if you have children if you have grandchildren Yeah, if you interact with we don't do something about it We're all gonna be they are all gonna be victims of it, but we were having this conversation four years ago We were having this conversation eight years ago. It's worse now. It is of course because it compounds And so the question becomes it's not how the periphery is going to act But how is the center going to react and so until we get to a point where comfortable Democrats where? Comfortable boomers are putting themselves in a situation where they're going to compromise their comfort Against ecocide against rampant development Then I think we're kind of in a state of law. Yes, we have to go there We must go there ultimately will will suffer, you know huge damage to humanity if we don't go there But when exactly are we gonna go there? What other conditions that will force us may I say force us to go what has to happen and Honestly, I thought that was Katrina If you were asking for my honest opinion I thought Katrina was the linchpin moment when we would have an honest conversation as a global community About the implications of climate change And then after that it was when the president of Kittibati came forward and said they were planning to move the entire populace of Kittibati to Fiji and that was another linchpin moment Or the fact that during monsoon seasons a third of Bangladesh is underwater. Maybe that would have been a linchpin moment and I think the serious conversation that we have to have and especially in regards to Donald Trump is the distinction between public capital and him as a representative of the federal government and Him as representative of private capital and how there's an active contention between the two the federal government at this point exists to secure borders and To create a municipal infrastructure, which he's obviously not very interested in and private capital is the market It's about generating revenue And so I don't nobody is really focused on the big problem I mean it becomes difficult to especially if as individuals We're working constantly to meet our subsistence needs if we're having a hard time paying rent If we're having a hard time sending our kids to school all the disparities all the sadness all the homelessness It's all there right and you know, let me suggest that I think what inherently and what you're saying is that he's not going to Address those things. He's not going to address those things and we know he's not going to address those things and actually he's very honest about not addressing those things and but What we should be and I think is important to talk about is again that Exacerbation of the income inequality the answer is an employment And the answer at this point and from this point on will never be employment So we have to have conversations potentially about universal basic incomes We have to have conversations about Interventions, but those are top-down interventions It becomes very difficult to have conversations about universal basic income with people who are not engineers with people who are not at the heart of Silicon Valley who are not those who are in the process or in the position to produce abundance You know that there's actually universal basic income is happening In Finland in parts of Scandinavia and there are projects in Ottawa as well It's a project coming on board in this country, too I want to say California and in Oakland Oakland, but again it it's not universal basic income They're giving people $2,000 a month which is essentially paying for rent almost paying for rent in Oakland Yeah, that's not what universal basic income in part of universal basic income is The ongoing guarantee that people will be able to meet their subsistence and Beyond that be able to like choose how they interact with the world either as artists or scientists or philosophers Okay, so you're I guess you're treating Trump as a phenomenon but the basic problems remain and the basic the basic mission of fixing them remains and when we come back from this break sky I want to know You know whether your approach about how to do that has changed because of his election and right now What you would do going forward after all we are here to quote may I say change the world? That's why we're here sky cone. We'll be right back Hey, how you doing? Welcome to a bachi talk. My name is Andrew Lanning. I'm your co-host and we have a nice program here every Friday At 1 o'clock I think tech studios where we talk about technology and we have a little bit of fun with it So join us if you can thanks. Aloha Aloha, I'm Richard Emory. I'm the host of condo insider, you know Associations are really prominent here in the state of Hawaii and they have a lot of complex issues with elected boards of directors Repairing and maintain the building how to make it quiet enjoyment to live there So our show tackles the issues of living with an association by bringing in experts on various topics from owners rights To association living to reserve studies to pipe repair the new law regarding overtime You will find it very useful in living in an association as well as we serve on our board of directors of learning all the Risks and rewards of living in an association. We hope you can join us every Thursday at 3 o'clock on think tech Hawaii Thank you. Okay. It's just getting good with sky cone Okay, so my question that I would put to you after the break is so you had you you've been involved in number organizations trying to change the world in every way you could trying to reach out to these major issues of the survival of humanity nothing small and And Donald Trump gets elected and my first reaction which which I think you must agree with me at some level is that he's not good for that Okay, the question then is whether your effort before has changed now When I say effort, I mean your approach your strategic approach to this and what is your strategic approach right now? We got work to do you have work to do. How are you gonna do it? What are you gonna do? It doesn't happen in a vacuum it can't happen in isolation And so the work that I do as an individual is secondary to the collective response that happens and again that Conversation about the periphery in the center is that if we're constantly doing work in the periphery People that don't care and we've established that history has established that I think what's happening with the indigenous populations in North Dakota is a perfect example It's the only demographic that we care less about than black men or indigenous people And we watch black men being murdered on television for sport That's what happens and the only population that we disregard even more our indigenous populations And so while I do support what's happening in North Dakota and indigenous resistance around the world It has to be more than that because that's been an active resistance for the past 500 years. What do you do? You must be getting impatient. I've been we've been I've been impatient people that I surround myself with are impatient And that's the conversation is about if there are people who are still comfortable if there are people who are still stable Those are the people who are going to have to change the people who are Comfortably middle-class or who find their situation slipping a little bit and so they entrench themselves even further until that sort of like Cultural lifestyle ism is addressed then there isn't going to be any sort of real political Transition you know about complacency on a huge level right right, especially in the global north particularly in the global north And I think and it's really unfortunate to say this but I think one of the most successful or Potential interventions is going to come from technological advancement. It's going to come Because technology has rendered employment obsolete is because between uber and their subsidiary auto All large-scale trucking is no longer a viable employment option for middle-class Middle-aged white men who no longer can one-for-one replace those jobs critical questions. So what do you do with them? I mean and there'd be more of them all the time What do you do with them and and that's the conversation that the state has to have we can't do we can't do that as like State I make a mistake. What do you do with it? Well, we don't deal with demographics in isolation We don't say that like oh you just truckers or people who are working for McDonald's or who are working for retail We understand that employment is no longer effective means of meeting subsistence needs and we accept that we accept it and move forward and Universal basic income would put us in a situation where we could get rid of The hyper bureaucratic welfare state where we're giving people out food stamps and then cutting them The idea is making a political commitment that deals and is mirrored in subsistence one of the interesting questions about the universal basic income thing is How will it affect the people who get the two thousand dollars a month or whatever it might be right? Are they still going to be motivated? Are they still going to have a reason to live an identity of a persona? If they don't have a job per se of course and I think that's a really problematic characterization that is Primarily means is he doesn't agree with me. It's primarily represented by boomers because for the most part the boomers have an Entangled identity with employment and it's very difficult to have conversations with boomers about Addressing and trying to explore individualized identity outside of employment But believe me when I say that as somebody who works with Marginalized populations with work with homeless populations with imprisoned populations that people are interested people are artists if you give them an Opportunity to go to school to go to learn to be productive members of society people will do it Nobody wants to just sit at home. It's actually very difficult to sit at home in a vacuum and stare at a wall I'd be impressed if somebody was able to do that for you He agrees me there are people who do that now which I think is fine And I don't think that's necessarily a problem that we should the idea is that if we give people the access to the agency That the hope is that if along with the agency we're giving people access to education We're giving people access to resources that why wouldn't you become a scientist? Why wouldn't you become an artist? Yeah? Yeah? Well, if suppose you became a really successful scientist or artist Would you be compensated for that or you still get the basic living wage? The idea is that we move beyond the I mean yes, so initially is yes There are still jobs there are still people who are being employed But the idea is people aren't working for subsistence their rent is covered. They don't have to worry about food Everybody has a decent life when which is a pretty it it's unfortunate. That's a revolutionary concept But it seems pretty straightforward, you know But it's not entirely revolutionary in the sense that technology in the past what couple three generations has shown us that we can do Extraordinary things without a lot of human toil without that and it's really incredible and that we can support ourselves as a population Even a growing population even an enormous population through the leverage of technology And so it is possible it become possible your argument about this today is much more probative than it might have been 20 years ago So but how do we get there though? We're talking about upending the entire system here sky Well, one of the biggest problems with this like post scarcity luxury communism is the market and how the market at this point is the purveyor for a lot of these technologies and Two weeks ago a week and a half ago. There was a meeting that Donald Trump had with the leaders of Silicon Valley so from Tim Cook to Bezos and Musk and the entire infrastructure was represented and for the past eight years There was this wrong assumption that the left made that we assumed that Silicon Valley and technology was inherently ethically and morally on The side of the left Yeah, I would have assumed that well, which was the wrong assumption that we made which side were they really on what on the side of the market? That's the side that is not the left which it doesn't matter to them And it would have been the side of the left if Hillary Clinton was elected president But again when Donald Trump talks about creating a registry when he talks about creating a wall when he talks about any of these draconian policies He needs Silicon Valley When he's building a wall, there's it's very unlikely that it's gonna manifest itself in brick and mortar And so if he's creating a situation where he the wall is mainly Observed via technology those are contracts that you put up not just a Boeing but to Silicon Valley as well Yeah, sure Well in Silicon Valley is actually making this happen as we speak, you know all these gizmos that that avoid human labor It's really incredible. They're doing it for a buck, of course, but they're doing it They're achieving it and the question really is The bottom line how you get the money for this what a good basic living Right income from the government presumably To the people to all the people. How do you how do you do that? I mean you you'd have to convince an awful lot of Legislators and policy makers who are kind of in in a way. They're in the pocket of the market They're in the pocket of the the capital concentrations. How are you going to change the way? How are you going to get them to do that? My answer is it's not going to happen I'm not a utopist and I'm definitely not a techno utopist as a student of history as a student Who's who studied the market? I'm not really surprised about Kakako or like hyper gentrification that's happening in San Francisco or New York There are quite a number of people that I work with on the left who Who don't believe that cities are for sale I mean and that becomes a point of contention is that I'm starting from point in saying that the basic nature of the city Especially the American metropolis is that of displacement and gentrification. It has nothing to do with housing It has everything to do with generating sure. There's a condo here for sale down on come a K Street for a hundred million dollars Right, then it looks down on the people below in the tents, right? So, you know, it's getting more impossible as we go this gentrification is a kind word for it It's you know, it's huge let levels of disparities when it is so but don't you think we have to fix that without a doubt And I like obviously at this point we realize that electoral politics are not an intervention It does not work and as we talked about before with electoral college They were actually a number of democratic representatives that changed their vote to Donald Trump when we all hoped it was the otherwise that the Electoral College would have some sort of like conscious awakening and Right without a doubt without a doubt and so if we're talking about intervention, that's off the table Or else we're waiting another two years four years or whatever and whenever we talk about the possibilities of like electoral politics What we're talking about Tulsi Gabbard in Hawaii and she's the best representation of Like centrist to state Hawaii state politics She's not an interesting individual and if that's the best who I can do then I don't think electoral politics is really the answer I think a lot of people agree with you right after this election I mean, maybe they didn't think about it much before but now electoral college Where do we get that from and and why is it different from the popular vote and how come it came up with this outcome? So the question is who that's a constitutional amendment That requires an awful lot of effort and you know public agreement, right? We don't have public agreement or make it or time or time This is all gonna catch up with it and it has caught up with us and that's the that's That's my sense of immediacy and that's I felt this sense of immediacy for the past eight years for the past 12 years And at this point it's sort of just waiting and waiting for other people to also Feel the same way again, if we're talking about not just Donald Trump as a Representation of where we are as like a global community if I were to say that today in Named country there was a representative government that went into a village and or a town and Burned and murdered and raped individuals and refused to let them to to leave That particular town. You don't know if I'm talking about Aleppo You don't know if I'm talking about South Sudan You don't know if I'm talking about Yemen Gaza if we're talking about Kashmir or if we're talking about the Philippines and so we've entered into this new global paradigm where not only is Climate change going to exacerbate these problems because if we're talking about migration There's it's impossible to separate the two you you you know, you're a committed activist Would you say that today sky you were more committed and more an activist than you were five years ago without a doubt And would you say that the people around you the people you talk to the people who agree and engage in the conversation with you? There are more of them would you say there are more of them in this country and maybe outside this country Sure, I'm just in the same way that I would say that it's Problem mainly because the periphery has gotten larger and so there are more people who are working poor That throughout the content United States But in Hawaii when you read statistics of close to 60 percent of working adults are housing precarious That's an incredible problem that we know is only going to be exact So something has got to happen something something is got to give and either we're going to be pre-emptive about what that something is or It's it will happen by itself and and it'll be incredibly disorganized and it will be easy easy to reappropriate And so if we're having conversations I mean like Hawaii is a perfect example because it's this like self-contained little microcosm It's very difficult to generate revenue in Hawaii people stash their capital here as the Chinese housing market collapses in Beijing You have a lot of billionaires and millionaires coming which affects policy without a doubt without a doubt and is if we're talking about migration and The conversation about migrations are always about those who don't have access to capital We don't want like migrant workers who don't have wealth, but it's never about folks who do things are going to change The winds of change are here and sky cone is a perfect example of somebody who's been following the winds of change Who is part of the winds of change and who can tell us in the future step-by-step? How the winds of change are going to change things? Thank you for coming down, but you're not finished We have to do this again and again sky. We definitely do today. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Aloha always