 Hello, I'm Kim Robledo Diga, interim director of education at Cooperview at Smithsonian Design Museum. We're delighted to be celebrating the Detroit month of design with our juror just announced 2021 National Design Award winners. I'm pleased to welcome you to our panel discussion today, looking at contemporary challenges and opportunities in design, including equity and climate change, as well as the role of collaboration, particularly with local communities. We're hosting this important conversation as part of our National Design Awards Cities initiative, bringing together our esteemed National Design Award winners and jurors virtually to cities around the country to share the power of design to change the world. Thank you to our winners and jurors for continuing to support our mission. The National Design Awards is our largest education initiative, and we're celebrating design throughout National Design Month this October. We invite you to join us throughout the month for free design education programs and activities. Visit Cooper to work to learn more and sign up for a program. We invite you to join today's conversation using the chat box. And at the end of the hour will open up for live questions and comments. Feel free to add any questions for our panelists along the way to the Q&A box. It is my great pleasure now to introduce our moderator, Kofi Boone. Kofi served on the jury for the 2021 National Design Awards, helping select this wonderful group of winners. A Detroit native and a graduate of the University of Michigan, Kofi is a university faculty scholar and professor in the Department of Landscape Architecture and Environmental Planning at NC State University in the College of Design. His work is in the overlap between landscape architecture and environmental justice with specializations and democratic design, digital media, and interpreting cultural landscapes. He serves on the board of directors of the Corpse Network, as well as the Landscape Architecture Foundation where he's president relaxed. Boone serves on the advisory board of the Black Landscape Architects Network. Welcome, Kofi, and thank you for leading our conversation. Thank you very much, Kim, and thanks everybody for being with us today. It was a great honor to serve on this jury. We were blown away by all of the entries. As a Detroit native, I'll first acknowledge my people and give you a salute and say what up, though. But also I'd like to offer a land acknowledgement because now I'm in North Carolina. So I'm coming to you from the land of the Eno and Soponi and the Sikori and the Cherokee and many other indigenous groups and from them we ask permission to share these words with you. As stated, it was a great honor and when the opportunity came to share these wonderful people and projects and thinking with you and Detroit, you know, jumped at the opportunity so glad to be here with you. We'd like to go through their introductions. I'm going to introduce each one as they are listed in the program and then allow them to share a few minutes with you about who they are and what they do and then we'll engage in a moderated conversation. That will hit some of the topics that have already been foregrounded by Kim and that great introduction and other topics. So hopefully it's a great use of time and then we welcome your questions. So please, if things come up, please put them in the chat in the Q&A and we will try and address them towards the end of the program. But beginning, I'd like to start with Dore Sun, who is the winner of the Climate Action Award this year. Through her work, Sun seeks to make building skins sensitive and responsive to the changing environment. She's the founder of Los Angeles-based Dosu Studio Architecture, the director of undergraduate programs at USC, and a recipient of fellowships including Google's Research and Development of Funding for the Built Environment, as well as United States Artists and Rockefeller Foundation at Bellagio. So with that, welcome, Doris, if you have a few minutes to introduce yourself. It would be great. Yeah, thank you very much. I will expand on that a little. I'm also co-founder of TVM Designs. I'm in a decision to the other hats that I wear. To describe myself, I am Asian. I'm five foot tall. I'm in my fifties. I'm medium build and I have a pixie haircut wearing yellow rimmed glasses today. I have to say those change because I don't always wear these glasses. I'm going to share my screen right now so that you can see a few slides. Let me do that quickly here. I hope you see, you probably see a black screen at this point in time. I want to say that I was originally a biology major when I was in college, but decided to follow it up with architecture school instead of medical school. I can go in that a little more detail, but not at this moment. After working in the profession for 15 years as an architect, I decided to convert my client-based practice into a research-based one in 2005. Since then, I have been working with smart materials, namely thermal bimetal, to develop building products that self-shade, self-ventilate, self-structure, self-assemble, and self-propell. Sometimes people will call that robotics, actually. With some of the technologies, I can generate energy and filter smog as well. The product that I received the Cooper Hewitt National Design Award is for a self-shading window system called Invert. It is trapped inside the cavity of a standard double-glazed window and react to the moving sun by flipping and blocking the solar radiation from entering the building. Many people say it looks like fluttering butterflies and keeps them in tune with what is happening outside in the environment. The result is a reduction in energy used for air conditioning, which can be up to 25% and an improvement in human wellness due to the reduction of tinted coatings on windows. That means more natural day lighting and color spectrum, both essential to human wellness. It's like removing sunglasses and seeing a world full of colors, both essential to human wellness. And finally, because this product needs no wiring and controls, it's very affordable and low in maintenance. So thank you very much for having me. I'm super happy to be here. I will stop sharing. You're fantastic. We're going to move on to Brian Lee Jr., who was winner of this year's Emerging Designer Award. Brian is the founder of Colocate Design, a multidisciplinary nonprofit design justice practice based in New Orleans with a focus on expanding community access to and building power through the design of social, civic and cultural spaces. Brian. Thank you, Kofi. I appreciate it. Alexa, I don't know if you're sharing or if you want me to share. I can, I can share. Oh, there we go. All right. And you can just flip through these. I'll talk a little bit about where we are. So again, thank you very much, Kofi. It's a pleasure to be on this panel with all of the other awardees. Again, my name is Brian C. Lee Jr. I am the principal of Colocate Design out of New Orleans, Louisiana. We just opened up in office in Portland as well. And I'm a black man about six feet tall, a mustache and a beard about dark skinned. And I've got a short Caesar haircut. I also have headphones on at the moment. Just to kind of give you a sense of the work that we do, our work is kind of centered on design justice, the kind of definition of our firm Colocate is based on the sequence of people in place juxtaposed at a greater frequency than chance. It is fundamentally about power and place. It's about people power. It's about institutional power and the way that those things manifest themselves in the physical environment. It's about power from the perspective that for nearly every injustice in this world that we know, we know that that there is an architecture of plan of design that sustains it. We understand that power in earnest is a way for a recognition that all histories of revolution are based in based in land based in the derivatives of land and how we negotiate our environment relative to that power is extremely important. We are, we also recognize that our values are validated through the spaces and places we design, and that ultimately, it is about how we care about our communities so design justice is what love looks like in public spaces. This is cribbed from corner West where he talks about justice is what love looks like in public it is fundamentally about our way to consider what culture looks like in physical space and talk about culture as the opportunity to to recognize a program. We recognize a protest as the, the protest is to have an unyielding faith in the power of justice society it is fundamentally about our collective hope for what might move us forward. And then lastly, I'll just, you can flip through any of these. Sorry, let's just pass through so each of these images you'll see that there are people and there are outcomes. There's a lot of cultural renderings here as well. But again, just to kind of close out design justice for us is, is a way for us to kind of forward a radical anti racist vision of racial social and cultural reparations to the outcomes of outcomes process and outcomes of design radical because it asked us to get to the root of a particular condition I say reparations because all of our work requires us to consider how we repair and heal our communities as we move forward and then fundamentally I say process and outcomes because it is not enough just to have a pretty picture, but it is necessary to invest the communities we serve into those spaces, or else those spaces will then be rejected long term. And lastly, design justice calls on us to challenge the privilege and power structures that we use in architecture to maintain systems of oppression. So how do we challenge that moving forward. I like to think and I think part of the recognition of this award is that all of our work seeks to do that and to rethink how we bring communities into a space where their power is the driving force for the architecture you see in the world. Thank you. Thank you Brian is fantastic. Our third panelist is me a layer who is our winner of the landscape architecture award. Mia is the president of studio MLA which integrates landscape architecture urban design planning and creating places that inspire human connection night communities and restore environmental balance advocacy by design is a foundation of the practice. Mia. Hey, hello and thank you. I'm in native of El Salvador, oops, Latina. So, although I'm white and I have today I have actually my hair in a ponytail brown hair ponytail. I speak multiple languages and have lived in many other places in the world, and I arrived in California 40 years ago from some East Coast time, but here I am and thank you. Hopefully that gives you a visual, but I'm often judged about where I'm from. And being that I've joined been joined in LA with many Central Americans they always love to, to talk to me. As we do our community workshops in Spanish and really spill their, their hearts and and souls and and we share a lot together. I'm a member of the studio and a fellow of the American Society of Landscape Architects and former member of the US Fine Arts Commission where I was named by President Obama, where I had a fantastic experience and immensely proud to be the newest member of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, the largest public utility in the country. And for the first time in all female group of commissioners, and an amazing honor that that was bestowed on me by the mayor, Eric Arsetti, and one which holds a tremendous amount of responsibility and little did I think when I was in graduate school at Harvard, that I would be prepared through my experience, not only at the school but over time to take on this rather interesting set of challenges and, and sort of be able to contribute to the important intersections of our times that have to do with power and water and many other sort of climate change issues. We're focused at Studio MLA and landscape in on landscape architecture urban design and planning and we live and practice by our core values we think holistically looking to build places that create justice and equity, delight and prosperity. We do so through working collaboratively with nature transforming places to perform multiple purposes at once and designing them to adapt with your ability for future generations. We see design and the creation of parks and open spaces is a way to advocate for communities. We know that government leadership leads to vision and as we implement that vision we look for opportunities to tell the stories that are layered within places stories of neighborhoods and you can continue changing it. Stories of neighborhoods, hope and conflict, water, air ecology and empowerment. Here you see a project Mr. Mosa Park before that we had Hollywood Park where we had the opportunity to build a central park for the Inglewood community. We never would have thought we would be involved in which was a large theater and also a stadium. Our mantra advocacy by design in the built environment we advocate and we understood over time that leadership leads to vision, policy leads to funding, funding leads to planning and if you're tenacious design materialize materializes and empowers. So that's really been our mantra which is basically helping people understand our design and a sort of methodology and what we can contribute. What you see here on the images is you see two mayors and two council people and one assemblyman all taking credit for the funding of the project that was built which was Mr. Mosa. And on the bottom right one of my major sort of here I'm his major hero if you would say that he's one of the three member one of the three leaders of gangs in this in the area around Mr. Mosa who became our best friend who has kept the place safe and has tried to transform himself and has really absorbed the opportunities that community work and bring to him that are positive and and sort of that really contribute to the community. So with that, I sort of, I hope this this helps us understand sort of some of what we do. It's fantastic Mia. I still get energized seeing these it's been a couple of months since we were pouring through many many many entries but hopefully the audience can see why these rose to the top they're just fantastic projects and people and work so. And I'm remiss and not describing myself. I am a middle age and the 50 year old black man medium complexion something pepper here glasses and had a few too many hostess 20 so hopefully that describes me on the screen. I like to jump into some of the questions that hopefully will guide our discussion and one of those that's come up several times as we started to prepare for this session and something that we did not talk about as a jury but might be of interest is your journey, your design journey how you arrived at your chosen profession in your field. I know that it's important we've discussed off camera the importance of helping young people in particular diverse communities to see design as sort of a pathway moving forward and curious if you could share a little bit about your journey how did you get interested in design. Mia you're on my camera so would you like to start. Sure. Interested in designed or inspired it are two kind of slightly know they're they come together. I grew up in the tropics and my. You know with incredible volcanoes and mountains and unbelievable sort of tree cover and hummingbirds and many other types of birds surrounding the small city that I lived in. And my father who is an immigrant. It from Europe. It was like giddy about nature. So there was no weekend that we weren't going somewhere just to take a walk to to go to a waterfall to go to the ocean to reach a little island off the lake or to climb a volcano where you have the time you were going up you were coming back down. But at the end there was a beautiful view of a crater. So I just, you know, that that sort of, it was in my DNA to sort of celebrate when orchids, of course, everywhere. And so I was very, you know, sort of passionate about the world around me and really started this construct and I think I didn't know how that would materialize. Just to make it short. I mean, I was reading. I was studying environmental design I found it a little bit esoteric. And then at some point I walked into a, an exhibit of six foot long drawings of Central Park by Frederick law homestead. And I looked at it and I said, Holy cow, what is that? You know, I'm 19 at that point. And the drawings I've seen seen the drawings and they were nine feet long. And I thought, I want to know what that is. And I went into the library and talk to the librarian and I was sent upstairs to talk to the head of the department and, and then I was just, you know, I was hooked to this profession that could do so much. Little did I know what, you know, what I would uncover and how much it would unfold and how relevant our profession is to our time and to my sense of play my sense of our place in, in, in our communities and what I can actually offer back which is just awesome. It's fantastic. And next year is Frederick Olmsted's 200th birthday. So we'll be many, many events and activities sort of honoring that that legacy. So that's great. Thank you for sharing that. Brian, what was your journey? How did you get interested in design? Oh, long one, but I'll try to pace it. So essentially when I was about seven to 10 I lived in Sicily and call me so my mother was a military commander, and we traveled place to place and so from Trent, New Jersey. When I came back to the States, you kind of are completely aware of the dissonance between those two type, typologies of space. And, and that kind of stayed with me so about 1011, when we were moved in with my grandmother and Trenton, I said I want to design a space that feels like that for you, basically for my grandmother and my parents said that that's, that's what being an architect is. And so that was kind of the initial impetus moving forward and move on into high school I had the opportunity to take a mechanical drawing class and then an architecture or a set of architecture classes and got really excited and you know, probably not supposed to say this but, you know, back in the day people used to copy CDs of Autodesk, sorry Autodesk, but one year I took all of the Autodesk CDs from school and brought them to my house, copy them my parents were livid, they were like, what are you doing you can't steal Autodesk CDs will buy stuff for you. And that was kind of their inspiration to help me move forward. And then from there, there's a couple other just like quick things one is that I went through school and felt a sense of loneliness right and as a black person in predominantly white institutions. I joined and helped to run the National Organization of Minority Architects students at the Ohio State University and then President both at Ohio State and at New Jersey Institute of Technology where I went to grad school. When I finished grad school I was pretty done with architecture and, and so I decided to kind of write and try to understand how I wanted to be exist in the world and exist as an architect in this space and. And so I wrote a lot of what we did today was kind of the origins of what design justice really is. And then a few years later I got the opportunity to start a little program called project pipeline, which had its origins in Cincinnati, David Kirk in 2005 by 2012 I got to run that program locally. And then nationally we turned it into a design justice or social justice through architecture and design camp that now has served over 17,000 kids for the last over the last decade. And so that's been the kind of pathway the man, you know, being able to teach was really really fascinating because it then led into a lot of the groundwork and foundational work of our practice right a lot of the stuff we did there because of the way that we had to communicate with with young people allowed us to kind of communicate with communities in a very specific way as well to build the tools to be able to have more proper conversation folks so sorry long long story but that that's kind of the pathway. That was fantastic actually we're right on time so don't feel restricted to keep moving and I won't report you to Autodesk so we'll work that out. Doris, how about you about your journey. I guess different than the others, I did not think I want to go to design at an early state I having immigrant parents, they basically saw, you know, you either a doctor or a lawyer or you go into business. And that where was the choices so when I went to college, I fortunately liked biology I like the sciences so I was a biology major. I studied arts at that time, and I even asked my parents if I could major in visual arts and they said absolutely not again as immigrants they said there's no way you're going to do that in college but I secretly did take studio course courses every single semester. So if there was such a thing as a minor that I could have done at that time I probably minored in visual arts, which was significant because I think he gave me the introduction to using and touching and working with my hands and materiality. So when I was in college I was going to head to medical school that was what I thought I was going to do and my advisor told me that it would be really cool if I had a different major when I made my application, because it was sent me apart from all the thousands of other biology majors. And so, at that time it was a liberal arts school so we took a lot of different courses and I thought oh well architecture sounds kind of cool it seems pretty easy, you know, like, I'll just do that. So I started taking more architecture courses and started becoming interested in doing that. When I graduated, I then decided not to apply to medical school but to go to work and the only skill I had to get a job was in architecture by drafting. And so I started working in an architecture office in Boston. They offered to pay for graduate school for me. And I thought wow I must be okay at this. And so I actually didn't take their offer because it required me going back to that office but I really started to think about what architecture was and and how I'd enjoy it so I did go to architecture school. Architecture school I think the good and bad thing is without having any preconceptions of what architecture was supposed to be. I asked a lot of questions that maybe some people thought was off. You know what I mean, outlier type of maybe even stupid questions. And so the question that I always asked when I was in architecture is why architecture was static and why it didn't move and why could it not breathe and why couldn't it be like clothing even. If clothing could move with us, you know what I mean then why couldn't architecture do the same and why couldn't it be sensitive. And so that was a question that I often and always asked all the way through my thesis projects. Fast forward I then practice as an architect for many years licensed thought I had aspirations at that time to become a great architect and early 2000 started getting really concerned and obsessed with climate change and the problems of climate. And so I started looking at architecture again saying well why isn't architecture changing and doing anything about this why aren't we, why don't we have more products that that are looking at you mean issues of climate change. Why are we just sitting here building houses the same way we always build houses and then of course we see things that are happening with weather and the, the devastation throughout so. In about 2005 I decided to change my practice as I said before from a client based practice into a research based one. And I thought, if no one's going to do it then I'm just going to try and go in that direction and, and you may get go after grants and those kind of things to develop them. So that's kind of the route that I took and that's kind of leads me to where I am and a lot of people ask me the question of how you mean. I get the aesthetics to what I do and the work that I do and I think some of it comes from again the art background that I have in the interest of materiality. And the other is still from that biology background because I still look to biology both plants and animals and things for inspiration as and and for ideas on how these things should move and and activate and be dynamic. So, it's kind of around about waves is probably later than everyone else and if you asked me in a different points in time. If this is where I ever thought I would be I would say no I never imagined I'd be here at this point in time in my life. Now that's really rich and you know they're clearly moments at decision points and everybody's stories when they could have gone one way or another. And you found the perseverance and the clarity to move forward with that like to just follow up with everybody. You know, your individual pathways in your journey so very inspirational, but I know in Detroit and in other cities, in terms of getting another generation excited about the opportunity of design. You know, we've had a few conversations about pathways, you know Brian's work required pipeline maybe the most direct, but I think all of you have had have considered this. There's one thing that an observation you would make in terms of a pathway for others who may want to, you know, move forward in design what would you put out there as a, as a as a way of doing that something that we should take on. Anybody can answer. I'll just do a quick one which is for those who have not really had to deal with marginalization or some some version of injustice or oppression. It's easy to see architecture as a formal pursuit of objects. You know, young people like in Detroit like in New Orleans like an LA across the country who have faced those things. The object disconnected from the humanity of the individuals turns people off. And, and so whether it's migrant backgrounds, or just those who have diasporic backgrounds I think, recognizing that there's so much power in the humanity of individuals and our architecture has spent so much time landscape and the physical architecture spent so much time trying to be disconnected from that humanity that that it will continue to shun people until it until it finds a way back into into that space. Well, I would thank you for. I think that, you know, it's obvious that the three of us come from, you know, the opportunity and privilege of studying and, and having parents who who understood and cared about our our understood the future I will say, although my parents grew up in teenagehood in Europe, they did not finish high school. They left. There was a war there was persecution and they left and so. But this the what I what I think is this the sense of opportunities that exist, where the newer generation, or sort of the, the, you know, the communities that arrive in America, just don't have no. There's there's it's there's so it's so complicated. And it's, and the pathways to entry are so hard. They just don't get it. I mean, somehow you get on a soccer team. Right. I mean, they look everybody does sports, they do go to school. Most, most of these days this next generation does go at least through high school. But then there's no sense of what's possible next. And there is no models and at home and, and they will say that, you know, they will, if you talk to a group of them. So, I, I, I mean, I, I work really hard and it's been hard during COVID, right. I mean, I know a SLA American Society of Landscape Architects, and I have programs in high schools for students. And many of our of ours are our colleagues here at the studio are committed to to to those programs, but it's been really hard. So I think that, you know, I see this group actually is, you know, just being able to inspire that next generation by virtue of helping them with these pipelines and going I had the pleasure. And one of my focuses at the Department of Water Power is jobs and the opportunities for jobs and pipelines and what are some of the engineering management and other opportunities there are and one of the women women presented to us and that what's inspired me is that she was the first person to get a special certificate that was just created like five years ago to be a line worker. That means she climbs up large immense poles and gets hooked up and she's a woman doing it that's always really special. So she described her experience because she was almost on the street and this job has kept her family, you know, housed and she's so excited about her work. We call her the first lady. So I'm determined to introduce her to the first lady, very soon. But that program is amazing. And so like that, I really think it's important to have, you know, be able to introduce people to the design fields to the, you know, creative fields as fields that can be appreciated, respective and well compensated. And that there are, there are souls around us that really need that kind of opportunity and that know they don't necessarily, they probably wouldn't make great, you know, firemen for a or b reason or a great other thing but that this is this is a pathway that is multifaceted and so interesting and that architecture is different from landscape architecture different from urban different from urban urban design. And, you know, that the that's the hard work. Our generation has to do to to help people kind of understand the opportunities. Yeah, and I'd like to add, I'd like to first say that the nice thing in our industry in the environmental, you know, built world industry I think is that we need. Not only diversity but diverse ideas and people with diverse backgrounds and diverse interest in it. It's something that we benefit from no matter what that you don't have to come from, you know, again the straight path to enter our field. And that's that's the great thing about it which I think is is maybe a little more difficult in other fields, because of the steps that you have to take to get into it. The work that we have to do that I think me as I'm referring to and also Brian is that we have to find ways to make those pathways a little more open and available. So that, you know, I mean that it's not. It doesn't feel like a closed system or a closed path to the future because I actually think it's something for everyone. You can even see on the panel here how diverse all of our backgrounds are and not only that about the areas that we work in architectures not necessarily in the capital a architecture, but a little more in the purple way which is very robust and very broad. It's, I think we do have our work cut out for us in and trying to open up and make those pathways happen, but at the same time, I think it's a field that is welcoming and open and meeting more voices and diverse voices. Fantastic. And I'll be honest. I, until we started talking didn't see the composition of the panel. Now I see it with clear eyes and I think it's a great representation of the many pathways the many interests sort of validating that doors your point about diverse points of view as being necessary moving forward. I'd like to move on to another topic. Detroit has a lot of your valuable legacies, but one of its legacies is design, and it was home and still a place where making this value, right and moving forward. How do we begin to make things that help us deal with these grand challenges, climate change, justice, you know, a number of other issues. And part of that requires collaboration and working with other people. So I wanted to start with Brian, if you're willing to share an example of how collaborating with people and responding to local culture impacted your work. Yeah, certainly. You know, I've done a lot of work around advocacy and justice work in New Orleans. So you two quick projects one is is called lights out and lights out was a assessment analysis of the landscape of housing after post Katrina. Right so lights out was a kind of creative endeavor that connected artists and architects and community members to not just assess properties but to understand the cultural value. And so our job was both to educate a public and to demonstrate physically by going to these these these places to acknowledge not just the passing of these physical spaces almost in the, in the way that a human passes right to honor them right to their passing to some extent. And so part of that project was to think about the kind of language of of culture interaction in New Orleans one is like a second line. So a second line is a way for us to kind of acknowledge those who have lived and passed in New Orleans and it's a celebration of life and death essentially so we dance through the streets it's a parade with a band and it's such a lovely event and it's a connection to culture if you if you don't know what it is please look up, look up a second line. We did that language that idea of a second line. And we did that as a cultural assessment of properties so we instead of going from bar to bar or from from from organization to organization, we went from derelict property to derelict property. We talked about the property values we talked about the, the under how much these properties were underwater how how they were kind of connected to the overall larger system of housing in the city. And so, instead of it being a drab dire report, we actually were able to communicate with hundreds and hundreds of people and a second line about each of these buildings. And talk more openly about the history and stories of these places. One of the images you saw earlier was of this this project. So anyway, that's a that's a really direct way in which we connect to culture. The second one is just briefly is about paper monuments paper monuments was way for us to kind of reconsider Confederate monuments that were littered across the city of New York from, you know, 100 125 years ago in a present. So we were 2015 we started this process this movement to remove monuments across the city and in doing so really wanted to make sure that whatever came next was a was a reflection of the community and the culture that existed here right in the city. And part of that process was through paper monuments was to make sure that the visual artists were connected with true community members. So we collect thousands of proposals from, you know, young people and our elders. From everyone we could talk to. We talked to 10,000 people we made 20,000 newspapers to share out the community voice. The artists took those respondents of those thousands of people who responded, and they translated that kind of cultural aspect that they kind of overlaid into the work and made public art that was based on it. We worked and coordinated those artists. We designed pieces ourselves to hold some of that art. And it was really a massive planning process that sought to embed culture in public spaces. It was huge. So, so I think those are the kind of anchor ways in which we do this work and you know our current project is called story, which is really started in 2014, but got new life last year. The original project was called the culture and civic museums project. Right. And so it is fundamentally about how we embed larger and larger scales of cultural memory, anchored to site. Right, we start from paper. We might move to markers in place we've been moved to memorials to monuments to museums, and just continue to grow the and hold space for culture for justice and the like. So that's the frame around culture and how we think it invest into all of our work, not just some. Bless you. Fantastic. Mia, how has collaborating with community working with local culture impacted your work. Yes. Thank you. So, one of the, we've been working on rivers and the river in Los Angeles for a few decades, and inspired originally actually by a poet from Texas, who actually saw the saw the, the possibilities. As he wrote about the river with the, the possibilities of that channel would be, and could be interesting Lewis McAdams. But more recently, and it dovetails into this whole thing about advocacy and also how policy leads to funding and that helping people imagine what we do by drawing it by quantifying things really helps. So all those day, all that work and then the work of course of some of the community groups that we work with like he'll debate like the green LA coalition, led to some funding that was associated with basically environmental and social justice and economic justice funding became available. And you could then, if you proved, you know, economic environmental and social justice issues for an area, you would get funding to then produce some studies and then actually soon implement some of this work. So, in doing that, we studied at the time it was in the upper LA River, it's the tributaries. So, everybody had been calling the river is the stem. Oh, that's just the stem, which was always like it just became a term recently and what the stem. Okay. And then it occurred to us, yeah, the tributaries, you know, they're part of a system, you know, where were we. And so we started we there we want we want the project to study the tributaries and there are 16 of them. And we studied only some because of the because of the half of them didn't have environmental or economic or social justice point the same amount of points. You know, we all, it's all going to happen. But going through each of those tributaries and understanding how they traveled through communities and the emotional connection that people had to these just path, you know, basically some of them are channels, some of them are naturalized. But there was a connection that was rather different from the connection to the stem. And we had we worked with like eight environmental nonprofits and community groups that were also nonprofits. And it was led by one of the council offices, who is very passionate about their community. And it was just the meetings were really very, very productive, helping people understand that this, you know, what, what could be changed. How could it be changed. You mean if you put a pedestrian bridge, I can actually walk from my house to the school, and actually go have a nice path, not just like go around, you know, some big, you know, potentially under freeways and over, you know, under freeways really. And just industrial areas and so it really led to a and then everybody understood that they weren't there, their tributary was had different characteristic that other tributaries right. So there was this sort of sense of weaving of these community groups and of the stakeholders and the community members that where they started understanding, you know, what was up. I remember sitting with, you know, Monica Rodriguez, the council woman in that area and her team and they were describing how how much asthma there was in that area. And I hadn't, you know, it's like in all the times I've been working in some of these communities, I had not experienced a lot of people with cases of asthma. And two of the people in the room out of eight, who actually work in the district had horrible cases of asthma. So it really became clear, and it was like just this weaving I said of these communities, understanding one another, having a better sense of, you know, what the process you have to go through in order to get to to designs to to ideas designs and then projects that can be pushed for funding. That was really meaningful and I said, we did storyboards for each of the tributaries that the children and the high school students actually worked on with us, so that they had this, this sense, you know, like, what's a section what's a plan and how do you know pictures that you could actually put together in collage form. So that was that. And since then, of course, now we have another set of tributaries that are pretty, pretty incredibly interesting and we're all very, you know, we now know how to go through this process. And I think we're on to something that could be where some of the federal funding that will be coming in will be able to help with this infrastructure. And then lastly, not least importantly, but really a very meaningful is destination Crenshaw. So then destination Crenshaw is a quarter, Phil's firm, you know, Phil Friedblum's firm originally started has been working on that project. I was with Phil and the Commission of Fine Arts, that mile and a half on on Crenshaw where they built a basically a rail line and oops, they forgot well because we don't really care about these communities, they didn't, they didn't do it, you know, they didn't do it underground and it what it's not overhead, it's basically somewhere in the middle. So the, the, the, the absolute havoc sort of urbanistically of crossing, you know, to the line and then crossing across to the next, you know, sidewalk is just a mess. And so we, we were hired would put concern well to look at that corridor led by an amazing. So you originally a labor community leader and now a councilman to actually to actually look at the district and try to get a better understanding of what the, you know, what the opportunities were to connect east west north south. And to create a series of moments throughout the community where there was nothing. I mean, it was really, you know, even the parking lots and I'm not talking covert the parking lots three years ago were just these desolate places. They had taken down a lot of the trees that I had been involved in planting with an organization 10 years before, in order to build this, this, you know, area. And so my quiz. Hiro Stawson was is the councilman and he has managed to get very large grants and also funding from, from our Metro group to actually make some of this start happening we're starting out with the park and the Merck. And then it's moving forward with a series of these like pocket parks along the way. We call it a linear museum because you'll be able to experience it by foot by bike and from Metro and bus. And, you know, I'll just tell you, in terms of the art community from the area all being engaged, having opportunities to actually create art in all these spaces. It's been awesome. And sadly, we we actually witnessed closely the Nipsey Tussle murder, meaning we weren't there but almost and we had gotten to know him and he had been very generous and very involved. And it's, it's a pretty, you know, it's, it's a big loss obviously to the community at large. So those are two projects, two sets of projects that we they're messy, you know, I tell students. Don't, you know, if I was you, my son who went to, to, to architecture school, I asked him what should I talk to the students about and he said, talk about how to, how to, you know, how you got to where you got to. And one of the things I realized is that we all have to find our own voices clearly the three of us have. And that, although for decades I've been moaned not being on the cover of landscape architecture magazine. In the end, my, my amazing sort of, you know, I'm, I'm so appreciative of being surrounded like people like the community from laf the community, you know, from all my the nonprofits and you, and you all on the dies here just like it is, it's, it's important to, you know, to think about that you don't don't don't go to work for someone so you could be on the cover magazine, find your path find your voice and follow it and, and just this is a profession that this is not a job nine to five. This is a calling and something to really think about as you move forward. Fantastic. Thank you for that. I wanted to move on to another topic. And then at that point we'll probably be ready to open it up for question and answer because this one's a bit more involved, but want to give everyone enough time to address it. It's sort of the ecosystem of social change. We started even with the intros with people's declarations on their perspectives of justice reparations, the roles that design plays and one real privilege with all the work was that, you know, usually when you're talking about design and the jury, you know, you end up focusing in on the formal qualities of the artifact right the aesthetics the form that kind of thing and what was nice was that everybody had cleared that level. So, although they were important, you know, to hold the level of rigor and clarity that really wasn't, you know, the highest level the highest level was each one really celebrated how design plus design can do more than just provide, you know, beautiful artifacts that there were there was an underlying sort of ethic to it. I wanted to leave this section off with Doris like in the context of Detroit, which is in the process of going through a number of changes and for a number of us. We hear pandemic we hear the public health part of pandemic we hear at the Kobe 19 pandemic but in actuality we've dealt with multiple revelations that have been revealed to that process from the aftermath of the murder George Floyd 2020 to our lack of preparedness dealing with the after effects of Hurricane Ida, I mean they're just multiple layers of challenges that we're all facing but we've all kind of carved out niches where we think we can do the most good and make the most change and endorse one thing that really struck the jury was with your work, the potential to scale up right so it's really about the potential to even adapt existing structures right with this particular innovation and if you've had any thoughts about what that scaling up might mean, you know, might that seed small business enterprises is something where local businesses could take this technology and make it locally or have you thought about the dissemination and how this spread in the context of dealing with climate change. Definitely was a, it was a component of the development of the project itself. The, I mean just to back up a little bit to I mean the, the, you know, I mean the technology that I developed is a combination of engineering and design and I say that because this line was really important. I mean, you know when they, when they make things there's these small tweaks and there's a whole methodology of scientific method that they have to follow to develop some technology. But the beauty of design is, we don't have to follow that methodology necessarily and we have these kind of, you mean moments where it's like oh I have a great idea and we execute it. I think that happened a little more also in commercial enterprise so for example, in developing the iPhone. They did not have to publish, you know mean and wait till it comes out in publications there was basically an attitude of first to market. And I think that speaks to a lot of architects and landscape architects and advocacy we don't sit there and think about how we're going to patent this thing we just get it out there as quickly as possible. And moving forward to which for us was a big learning curve because I don't know very much about commercial commercializing products, or how to bring things to market. But with the real drive that we had to bring these things because because who else is going to do that again, except if it's not us and so we started this startup company to do that. And the model that I think you're talking about of scaling up was really thought through carefully to because typically you would, you mean, build a manufacturing plant. Start building it you know me and shipping it all over the world get the orders out and and that would be the most efficient way of handling it. But in the case of these windows that we made it turned out that the manufacturer there's no single large manufacturers of what's called igus or insulated glass units and what that is is the double glazed window system that you see on all commercial buildings now. And so that system already was decentralized, and there's thousands of smaller companies across the US around the world that actually make them. And the nice thing is because they're made locally they don't have a very huge footprint when it comes to carbon footprint and transportation. And so using that type of system, we are connecting with all these different manufacturers of it use and there, I guess you can call them a little more like micro factories as opposed to very large ones just burst all over the place. And so we can have them and our windows built very local to the construction site to reduce that as well as increase the amount of commerce in the area with that kind of product. The inserts that we have in there the smart buy metal that actually does the shading can also be done locally because we're using what's called cam or computer aided manufacturing. And so because we have these all digitized, and we can use laser cutting or stamping in anywhere in the world by sharing that information. It can also be done in different countries in different locales simultaneously. So it's a whole attitude to how this is going to be dispersed, manufactured locally, and then installed. So it's a whole attitude to thinking about, again, the carbon footprint and greenhouse gases and what we're doing to the earth and human wellness or sorry planet wellness, as well as trying to uplift the local economy and help those micro factories and supporting them. So I think this sort of consistency right so part of the challenge of what you created was dealing with climate change, you know, not having to rely on those polluting infrastructures and those systems that perpetuate, you know, the emissions that contribute to the problem but you know really taking full advantage of this decentralization as a way of working and just really a nice, nice synergy there. And I want to continue on that with regards to the role of research and innovation. How do you see that within this whole system of trying to use design to implement social change. Well, I think it's interesting that you asked that in regards to the last question to that you were talking about the collaboration. Collaboration is really key in research and development now I think in everything that we do it is, it is not done in isolation or in a bubble. And there's another project for example that we're working on which is to filter air in urban canyons. We're working with civil engineers we're working with aerospace automobile engineers we're working with people in preventive medicine and public policy we have a very large team of trying to think of using building facades for the public good for actually for public health is a different attitude to how it's ever been done because that's owned by usually private developers or private owners, but we're trying to figure out a way to make it make that surface potentially be owned by the city actually can be used for many, many different things if we really rethink the structure of what those surfaces can be so it can clean air and in our case and the project or it could clean water or it can provide me farming surface all these different things. If we separate that that liminal surface from the building. The big task is, I think it's very ambitious, I think it's crazy idea. But like I said before, I think that's the beauty of design is we can sit there and think in terms of crazy ideas and really try to move forward to to change the world and make it much more equitable. So, that's that's fantastic and then the manufacturing and that whole world of collaboration is a whole separate thing too. In the gap I didn't follow up with our collaboration clearly your work is collaborative as well. So that's fantastic. Like to move on to Brian, and we've gotten a little taste of some of the responses to this next question but the role of mobilization and activism in some ways, you know your work is sort of a response to the call made, you know over 50 years ago from Whitney young, you know the classic AIA keynote address that really challenged the profession to look at itself and change itself so that it aligns and reflects and represents the communities at Austin's and we served so Brian I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about the roles of mobilization and activism as we move forward and design. The thing is, you know, it's a great question you know I think it's a huge consideration for me I think most of my research and precedent and heroes are outside of the world of architecture, much more centered in worlds of social justice and activism. And so our elders and our ancestors who have gone through movements and built movements towards justice have been the inspiration that have led to a lot of the work that we do and that you know I often pinpoint the kind of conversations around WB Du Bois and Booker T. And in the late 20th century. I'm sorry 19th century that that really helped to define the kind of practical considerations of people in relationship to place so if you're thinking about the Philadelphia Negro by WB Du Bois which really started to understand and assess the kind of sociology of people in place and in ways and understand that even if that sociology exists 10 blocks away. The, the definition of the culture of the people is somewhat different and so acknowledging that those the spatial consideration plays an impact on on how people maneuver and understand their space to Booker T. Washington which helped to create the Washington Rosenwald community schools, which during segregation helped to landscape the south with about 5300 schools that was a direct representation or direct response to kind of Jim Crow pig laws all of the black hoes that they came about so that was a mobilization of you know WB Du Bois mobilized not just the Seventh Ward in Philadelphia, but researchers and community members kind of go and knock on every single door they knocked on 10,000 doors to kind of get that research conversation going. Every single one of the buildings that were built by Booker T. Washington had communities making up more than you know 40 to 50% of the funds to build the building in the first place but to organize and build these spaces that were not just spaces but where we're also communities spaces community centers. So, you know, I center things maybe starting there but thinking about the black Panthers and all the many different types of spaces that they created to maintain hold and lift culture and community to think about. You know, a lot of the work done in the 60s and 70s in in not just in the civil rights movements with churches and like those types of cultural spaces, but thinking about the kind of black utopia spaces from Tony Morrison and Audrey Lord and all of these writers that kind of gave us a sense of what fantasy and future might look like if it's rooted in a present condition of a people. And so I find all of those as generative opportunities to lead into the type of movement work we've we've done. So over the last decade you've seen movements around again educational movements around project pipeline which you can you've seen thousands of young people kind of engage with to design as protests again thousands of people across the country are a part of this organizing effort, which has nine demands we don't you know over the last year or so we've grown potentially internationally and we've you know forced institutions like a New York and a national that could reconsider their their conversations around building jails. So that's a tremendous feat for this organization to organizing folks around dark matter university which is another organization that helped to to one of the committee co founders of that organization, which is trying to really think about educating the public around architecture and so I think those are, you know, the inspirations that led to a series of movement works that we've been able to put in place and all of that has a direct high back to how we produce architecture and service of people. None of it is just just for the sake of it right because if we go back to the kind of anchor condition of design justice, it is really to understand how we create racial social and cultural reparations through the process and outcomes of design. Right. It has to start there. Fantastic. Thank you, Brian. Mia. You've already illustrated many examples of the roles that designers can play outside of the traditional client relationship so as an advocate it's built into your, your firms DNA. And, in addition to that, this sidebar there was an interesting question that was just asked about what's happened in the last year and it happened to hope it and I know in our previous conversation you talked about that advocacy interest pivoting and and with a lot of things that in the traditional purview of the designer you would consider. So, like you to maybe offer some of your thoughts about what advocacy means to you and particular in the near term garden. Yes, thank you. Well, in the near term, the first six to nine months was you know, action associated with community groups, community members that you've gotten to know and the issues of displacement as a result of, you know, basically sort of owners of large pieces of real estate who are just, you know, basically taking advantage of the moment and food and just, you know, just the basics right. Parks are not open. A lot of young people when they were, you know, studying at home. There wasn't enough bandwidth for people to do their work. So, you know, being able to occasionally pick up the phone to people in in the know and who, you know, like the head of the school district and just saying you know, how can can one help you know, like is it so I mean I don't as far as thinking about design associated with the times that we're going through is, you know, obviously, in terms of climate change the urban forest, really thinking hard about how we use these artificial spaces that are sidewalks but not and not streets but that are also need to be gathering spaces and thinking about, you know, all those edges along these rivers the tributaries the lakes and, you know, making the cities more livable but I think of one of the things that also it highlighted for me and going to the images on the covers of magazines is the notion that as you're making your choices and it's clear with Brian and and obviously co the two of the three of you which is I was once called a regionalist, kind of as a critique, right like oh she's just a regionalist, and, and I was then sort of within the year invited to go to one of those countries were where I'm not comfortable going because of the politics and I don't want to mention necessarily you went up to to go and do like this amazing project along the river as sculpture garden and I'm, I'm weighing it and I'm thinking, no I can't get on that plane. So I think that I think what you, I'm hearing also it was so, you know, interesting to hear from Doris is this idea that as you scale up that somehow you give back to certain, you know, to the, to the communities and other places by allowing them to participate in, you know, the endeavor and the, you know, commercial endeavor if you could call it that. And, and that I think that's, you know, that that that's great. I don't know if that answers the question other than I think COVID has made us realize how we are connected across the world in in ways that are very productive and in ways that are very sort of destructive. So, that, you know, it's allowed at least some of us to pause to take more time to be more empathetic to to to be to live slower better. And one of the things I learned was how much food you can buy for $300 and fill your car up and go to do the food bank. And I was already had deals with you know we had already arranged for deals with two big food banks but there was still so much need. And I would go and the market would give me just say you know, you know me today we have a deal on this this and this and this and we put it aside for you. And, you know, and the pleasure that I had in giving giving out sort of sort of, you know, not not just food for for today and tomorrow but sort of culturally relevant relevant food that people really appreciate because, you know, that's not where they were at. That's fantastic and I just pulled out a quote to live slower better. I think that that's a, that's a fantastic framing of the possibilities the opportunities the upside of the time we have now. We have about 15 minutes left and definitely welcome questions but we have one that's been offered that I think everyone on the panel. We'll probably have a good response to the question is as an emerging designer. How do I find a mentor. How did you meet your mentors. Doris how do you meet your mentor, or do you have a mentor. I never had a mentor. You know, people ask this question all the time and I never really had a role model either and I always felt on the fringe and a little bit on the outside. Being, you mean both Asian and female in a field that has very few females and BIPOC people. But, you know, I mean I think the nice thing is there's different avenues of finding mentors. I, I wish there was maybe a more national organization at our school at USC we have a mentor, we have multiple mentor programs for example we have it from the profession. We have a group that actually connects mentors to our students, we have our students who are now mentoring the high school program that we just started this year called a lab which is connected to la usd. So that we can mentor those young people coming up because again, you know we we don't want to make a mentor system where it's just so far and distance but can give you the steps forward. I myself am part of a program to mentor black women in architecture and trying to bring them up through the program and have been over COVID and speaking about something that happened during this pandemic was matched with a young architect who we've been only working with via zoom, which is actually again has been a very nice tool to be able to do that and we speak once a month, and it's nice because you might already helped her find a position and now she's working at morphosis already, and it's fantastic and she's never thought that this could ever happen to her. So, I, I wish I had a more direct answer to to this because I wish there were maybe some more national organized ways to connect. But I think that you would, you know me if you reach out to the local university the local design programs that they may have some of these programs locally, so that you can hopefully even meet mentors in person now and not just virtually. Brian or Mia about mentoring for you. I can speak to it a little bit. I want to speak a little bit too. So, a couple things as the emerging designer award winner on this, this particular panel. One thing is that you'll always be emerging. That is something that I've learned in this. This is like the third emerging designer award. So, kind of continues to happen which means that you're always looking for folks that can kind of help you and guide you in the next steps. And that's that's a good place to be. For me, my, my kind of strategy with mentorship was that everyone was my mentor, and they just had different amounts of times that they could kind of engage with me and so. So I had a lot of mentors and some folks were able to dedicate more time and some folks weren't the key to that is to not hold grudges when people can't, you know people get busy because lives are hard and things get busy. So, luckily that meant that I had a lot of I ended up gravitating towards a lot of a lot of friends that are still with me to this day, whether that's Kathy Dixon or I mean a lot of Noma friends Kathy Dixon or Kevin Holland or Steve Lewis. I think that was a shang has been a tremendous mentor of mine so and you know I think the folks I would consider Kofi a mentor of mine as well. And peer and I'd also say the other thing is, don't be afraid to have peers as your mentors as well right like that's a huge thing people who are with you or maybe a step ahead of you, relative to whatever the, the, the place that you're trying to go. And an honor that you know everyone's journey is going to be slightly different than yours and you can learn from one another it doesn't mean that you only have to have a one way relationship. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned peers because I was going to also go there but I think my, my first sort of mentor was Peter Walker. He was the chair of the school. When I went to school to the Graduate School of Design at Harvard and he was just he was incredibly young he was 40. You know, basically just really yearning for new ideas and the relationship of architecture landscape architecture and art. So it was a fun time to be around him and then around the same time. He was my mentor. I, but I did study under him was Jack Dangerman, who was doing systems thinking associated with GIS and everything else we do which came comes from I've got to claim it from landscape architecture, by the way, the systems thinking about this. And, and then there was Cornelia Oberlander, the Canadian landscape architect who was just amazing. And so she used to grab us all that, you know, the SLA conferences and just like lap us with stories and with questions and with support and, you know, and just send us letters saying go go go and she was like very a wonderful woman she just passed away. And there was an, and she was also the first one of the first graduates from the GST, the first woman from the programming landscape architecture. And she and that there was Rosa Clea's in Brazil, who is similar sort of at of the same age of as the people graduating from Pete's class, but the way I, I vote, I think for me my peers and my cadre of folks, then not all women, you know, the people I've met at at LAF, for example, and, and women that, that, you know, that I appreciate respect who are also in architecture, and, and other I like professions where we share and advocate for climate change issues at the intern at an international level and we're making a lot of progress. And so there's, you know, Kathy Blake and Martha Schwartz and a few others. And I always take time with some of the, some of my California mates or younger people who are working with me or teaching is to share the good bad and the ugly, you know, what have you know, things that you uncover about how contracts are divvied up given out in the public sector or the private sector. What lists should be on so you should, so you have opportunities because you know, you have to go through certain conventional processes and how to you know engage in in in the process, for example, of community plans or, you know, how important it is to participate in that way in the city. And, you know, encouraging them all to realize and learn something that nobody shared with me, but which some are taking it to a whole other level one of them was at landscape foundation was an homestead fellow at LAF and it's been just wrote a book on schools. And so how important, not only, you know, how important schools are places for learning and and and living in in big cities and cities in general, what, you know, education means with better nicer greener schools. So, I think, I think that there was, there's a lot of that interweaving of, and of course people you admire and then you just, you know, gravitate to for some lunches and dinners that just, you know, give you some wisdom. That are, you know, some of the professors that us school at UCLA at the school of the environment and others that I also participate in, in some of the nonprofits and foundations that, you know, are advocating for climate change and just sitting down and getting to know each other's families and sharing, and then connecting people to each other. That seems to be really important to was a great answers. I wish I had all of you and I was in school. Glad to have all of you now I should just be counting my blessings right now. It's been a terrific conversation we've only got a few minutes left, but we do have one more question. Unfortunately, it's the second worst question to ask at the end of the session. The first worst question is how do you get paid. But the second one is how do you deal with burnout work life balance. So this could be an entire panel on its own just that one topic. But I wondered if we had just a short take about what you do to recharge and stay inspired. So I would say that I recharge and stay inspired by visiting my grandchildren. And now you're supposed to say you can't possibly be a grandmother called Kofi. You can't possibly be a grandmother. But I am possible for for for. And that's so fun. I mean, it just takes you away. I do art projects with them. I plant. I have to say they're one of the nurseries that I buy plants at sells a sort of like the tops of worms and tops of ladybugs and top, you know, and so I mean they expect me to show up with with worms and ladybugs at all times. And that's one way to recharge. I wish I took more vacations and and I want to do that at some point but I'm not very good at at disconnecting. What can I say. I guess I can add a little bit and and like Mia I guess I can say what helped me and hopefully can help others to as I actually think being outside really helps a lot right getting to the outdoors and spending as much time outside as you can. And ideally doing a little exercise while doing that right so again it can, you know, it's always a positive thing getting those endorphins going. And so that I think I was able to spend a lot more time doing during the pandemic. The other thing that I did and I didn't have the foresight at that time. And maybe I'm generally an extrovert person and like to socialize but when we went to lockdown I realized it's like I can't see my friends anymore and I can't do all these things. And so I actually set up some small group groups that we actually met weekly on zoom. And I actually ended up seeing some of these groups and these people more often than I ever would in real life, because we made it a weekly thing. And because it was weekly to and things were slowing down I think it was mentioned earlier, you mean, I guess living slower better. We started thinking about what we could do during these times. And so we started making activities that were, were, I mean, at that time, you know, or in retrospect seem a little silly but were a lot of fun so we decided to watercolor together we're not we don't watercolor we don't know how to watercolor we don't know how to do that and so we then sought out people to give us advice on it. And so we would come and almost teach us or guide us on our independent water coloring. Little activity, we did knitting, we did all kinds of things, and actually kept us together so it was a togetherness that ended up. I'll just say it's these six women who are designers that we ended up designing a COVID table together as a result of it too. I don't know will ever use this COVID table. We're thinking about trying revealing it possibly to the public but it's actually a very interesting design exercise that we did in the end, where we have six independent tables that lean on each other in order to stand up. And so, as a funny thing we call our table I leaned as a little topic so it was a fun thing, and we are continuing this as we move forward as we move in person more, because it was such a great exercise and one of our group members now has moved at a distance and so it's a great way that she too can continue. My book group would be very disappointed but I didn't mention that because we have a wonderful book group that gets together also on Zoom and has for before COVID and even more importantly now. And also my walking group, and there is a woman's group national women's group that also has had some fantastic programs, you know across across the country so hooray for zoom I guess. And like that I think, unfortunately, if you would like to hear Brian secrets, I encourage you to go to collocates website and to reach out directly I'm sure you have some great secrets to share with us but I'd like to take the time to thank everybody to thank the people of Detroit for hosting us virtually to thank Doris and Brian of course for incredible insights and conversation today I know I personally got a lot out of it I hope everyone else did as well. And we wish you well. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks everyone. This is great talk awesome. Absolutely.