 What up, what up, what up, I'm Brand Man Sean. And I'm Kory. And we are back with another episode of No Labels, Necessary Podcast. You can catch us every Tuesday, every Thursday on YouTube. Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you stream your podcast. Chopping it up about music. Chopping it up about money. Content to create an economy, entrepreneurship as a whole. And today, talking about entrepreneurship, this first topic is beautiful and unexpected. Very unexpected. This man, and I wish I had his name, this rapper is making $82,000 a year on Fiverr. Fiverr. Now, we can't play the clip because it's like a whole little mini doc and that's just too long. But just breaking down his process and what he's doing, essentially he's creating jingles in many cases. And in some cases, it sounds like he's creating personal songs. All right, so someone might say, hey man, I just wanna write a special song for my boo on Valentine's Day. Can you write a song for me? And either he performs it or it seems like there might be some cases where I might be the person performing it. He just might write it for me, all right? But he's a work for hire. And he says his numbers were, I think it was $140 for, what was it? Like for a 30, no, for 30 seconds? Or no, 16 bars. It was $120 for 16 bars and then $200 for a full song. Yeah. That's a lot of music right there. That's a lot of music, man. Like I ain't fly doing the math. Actually, yeah. I wonder how long a full song is, but let's just say this. So it was $83,000 a year, $83,000. All right, divided by $200. I'm sure there's some things given take that might change, but 415 songs that he wrote, somewhere in that vicinity. That's a lot of writing. But if you're writing every day and you can move fast, that's a great lick. Because what this guy said was, he only takes about 30 seconds to write a song. He said, he was a client might say, all right, I'll wait these three days that you said that it takes on fiber, but it only takes me about 30 seconds. So I guess he comes on in, get inspired. And you gotta think, he's not saying, hey, I'm gonna write you a song to win a Grammy. And these are regular people. So they're looking for very basic topics that if you're a really seasoned artist, you can probably damn near freestyle. Like all of this and just be done with it. Yeah, reuse some of it. You know what I'm saying? This person ain't never gonna hear this song. That's true. I didn't even think about that. I didn't even think about that. Might have that thing optimized. Shoot. Oh, man. So I hate this. We have a topic that got cut out of the last episode. And it's not our fault. I know y'all hate when we say that we took an episode down or took something down. We've seen the complaints. Cause we're trying to keep quality control, but literally the audio just cut off mid episode. And we talked for like 12 minutes and. Inspiration was gone. The inspiration was gone. It was such a great conversation. It was such a great conversation. And we're gonna rehab that conversation one day. But for now, I'm gonna reference the conversation that they didn't get to hear. Imagine this. So we talked about the AI bot voice, right? Okay. King of the Martyrs, the AI bot. So now we have the AI that can actually recreate your voice. Imagine me combining this with the Fiverr concept. I can write songs on chat GPT damn near. Yep, knock them shits out. And knock them all out. So bump taking 30 seconds. I'm just gonna type the concept into chat GPT. I'd be surprised if he's not doing something like that. Right. And then I can have it rap my voice. Oh, with the voice thing? Yeah. That's what he was going to ask you. So they really think it's me? Yeah, that'd be crazy actually. It's a lot of things to combine and streamline. So also a buddy might want to watch out because your job can be taken possibly real soon. We definitely want to interview them. I want to talk to them about that. But the concept of making money like that on Fiverr is a beautiful concept because artists, I just hear again and again and again and again. Y'all are struggling to have this singular version of success, right? When it comes to music, but there's so many different paths. I'm going somewhere with this because there are thoughts that are flooding into my mind at the moment is some things like I come in and I'm like, how come I didn't see this before? Y'all are going this path. This was the path that was sold to us when we were kids, right? We saw the in front of the scenes. Not even intentionally like they were trying to manipulate us, but those were the artists who were in front of the scenes. That's the vision you see the Jay-Z on stage, Beyoncé on stage, Tupac on stage, Taylor Swift, whoever, Garf Brooks, he's like, what the hell you say Garf Brooks? You didn't see that coming. I don't think I was like what? You see these folks. I saw Garf Brooks. Right? And so that's what you want to be. You don't want to be something that you don't see, right? And now there's a lot of artists who have grown up now they're in a position and they're chasing that singular vision of what they saw, even though there's way more to the music industry, whether that's composing music in the back end, whether that's doing things specifically like jingles and writing music for people, whether that's just being a songwriter. All right, all of these different things. And as a recent, I found out my homeboy, all right? Shout out to Nick, all right? He's actually a rapper for somewhere in the military because I don't know if I could say that actually, now that I'm thinking about it. But shout out to Nick. You know what you do. You're the assassin of it. Yeah, you know what I mean? There's a government, there's a government umbrella that is hiring and paying salary to be a rapper almost as a marketing arm. And he's literally rapping, right? For a career, getting paid salary. And yeah, again, I'll leave it at that just cause I don't know what I could talk about. But maybe I can interview him. We can have him on at some point. Now, riding that back and I'll tell you where it was leading me though. J'corei, I feel like you're familiar with the concept of high value men. Okay. I feel like you watched Kevin Samuel's videos before. Okay. And, you know, very controversial figure. One of the main concept of this high value men concept was these guys are a very small percentage of men and they come with certain standards, things you have to do, things that you might not even wanna do. Yet most women are chasing that. Now, this is not me saying this. This is me repeating his talking points, right? That's what people are chasing. In a very similar fashion, artists are doing the same thing. Okay, I know what this is. I'm not trying to get you in trouble. I'm not trying to get you in trouble, but the concept is similar. The perception, right? Because, and that's the funny thing about it. When you actually looked at the definition, it wasn't all, see, I think people got confused by the idea of value, right? But the definition was had to do with more things than value, like in terms of like, whether this is a valuable person, a good person or not. Had nothing to do with none of that. Just these superficial things that you look at in these categories. Like experience of value. Right, exactly. They come with this and some of that is perception. So if you look at the career, high value music career, there's a perception that people like associated with it. You know what I'm saying? And there's a certain level of exclusivity that comes with. And then there's a certain amount of things that you are going to have to do that many artists say that they don't want to do. Cause that's what we always talk about, bringing in the business and the 80% or 90% business and only 10 or 20% music, right? The whole sell out, all that concept. And this isn't me to demonize. If this isn't me saying this to demonize following that path and following that dream. It's just me reminding people who want to live as an artist that there are other paths. And I think a lot of people, cause initially they wanted that because they thought that was what living as an artist look like. There is no other option, but there's so many options. There's always been a lot of more than one option. But now there's even more options. You know what I'm saying? Like that are coming like fiber. Bro, you're writing music on fiber. Instead of having to go to a big marketing agency in Jingle Factory before now, you can go direct that way too. Yeah, right? So I was crazy, bro. I was just big enough fiber like a couple of days ago. Yeah, you were. Yeah, I was, bro. Teen fiber over here, man. But, and I think it's one of those things where to your point earlier, people didn't really know. So like when that Pusha T clip came out about him writing the jingle of McDonald's way back in the day, I learned that within the last like two, three years. You know what I'm saying? But that happened like 20 years ago at this point. So think about that whole generation of artists that didn't even know that they could do that. You know what I'm saying? Because the information wasn't out. They thought it was just a joke on Jamie Foxx show. Remember he worked going jingles. Yeah, exactly, bro. Oh, it's a real career. And I mean, I remember the first time I personally started to kind of see it was I had a mentor, not a famous guy, not even close to being famous. Yeah, he has his, you know, his entertainment industry club. He's not famous. And I always remember like one day he just was like, yo, like, you know, come take a look at my tune core and they had me like $40,000 in like one month. And I was like, damn, that's crazy. Like, you know, famous, you know, you're not doing the typical artist things, but there it is right there in your tune core statement. 40 bands, you know what I'm saying? But for this period. And so that's when I started kind of see that. Oh, so there's like different ways to make money in this music thing other than like I said, the very traditional linear path of ground zero artists to superstar doing superstar things. And especially as we've gotten more information about superstars and what they have to do to your point, I don't even think every artist wants to be a superstar, you know, it's like, man, I could do this level of work to be super famous or I could do this amount of work and make 200K a year. Yep. I'm going here because it's easier. Here's more manageable in here. I can leave my house and go to McDonald's when I feel like it. Yeah. Right. And so I think that it also makes me think back to the Vince Staples pose. Did you ever see the Vince Staples conversation when he talked about how he got into the scene for gaming? I'm not sure. So he essentially just was making the point of, you know, I think it was like, you know, industry music money was kind of slow and he was just a fan of like certain games. And I think the first big game he got in might have been like FIFA. Okay. And he saw the check from FIFA. He's the other gaming thing. She was like, you know, where it's at. So then he spent like a whole, he talked about he spent like a whole like year, you're going to have just like diving into the sync world, researching the people, pitching the different games. He had a good year, like FIFA, Grand Theft Auto, like a bunch of like really big games. And, you know, that's the path where like he was able to flip his influence into it. But I'm pretty sure there are probably some artists out there were like, that's their whole thing. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, if you watch like anime, there are like music artists in their world who make a living just making music for different TV shows. Like all they do every time the studio got a new song coming out, they go in the lab, write a little jingle form, cut that shit, sell them the rights or give them the rights and then they on to the next batch. There are these like very, very untraditional ways for artists to make money. The tour cruise people, you told me about like a year ago. Remember you told me about the girl that helps artists get booked for cruises and they be making them back there? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Shout out to Christine Morel, yeah. Yeah, so it'd be all these obscure-ass ways that artists be making money that the artists who are chasing that superstar path either don't know about or they think they're too cool for. Yeah. Now the latter one is the one I've heard a lot, man. It's like, you know, I've met smarts that would rather struggle on the traditional path than deviate even a little bit to go make some money, which I personally think is crazy, but they exist, you know what I'm saying? They're out there. This is when you ask people about why you wanna do this. Why you wanna do this? Why are you really in this thing for it? Cause some people say, hey, I just wanna do it for the music, do it for the art and I wanna make a living. But then if you're struggling in one path where you don't have to struggle in another path and still do the music and make a living, then it has to be about more, which is fine, but then be honest with yourself about it. It's like, nah, hey, I wanna be this type of star. Yeah. But that's why when some artists try to shame the artist is only in it for money, like, ah, he's only in here, she's only in for money. I'm like, bro, there are some artists who only in to be famous. Now I'd much rather take the artist who's in it only for money rather than the artist who's only in it for fame, you know what I'm saying? Cause that causes so many other insecurities and there's actually so many insecurities and personal demons they fighting through that. I don't want nothing with it. That is what my invoice paid, you know what I'm saying? The artist is all about his money and it's all he care about or she care about. They gonna take care of that. So, you know, there's a million different ways to get to the same destination as an artist. If your destination is to just make a livable income as an artist, right? There was a Spotify report that came out like a year ago where they mentioned it was something crazy, man. Like a very small percentage of artists even making at least 10K a year. So it's even becoming, you know, I think for artists the ultimate goal always seems to be like millions of dollars in fame because they think that puts them above the average artist but it's like, bro, just making like 30K a year as an artist puts you up into like the top 1% of a music artist. You know what I'm saying? She making any money really puts you in the top 1% but you talk about making a livable wage. Hey, I ain't like balling but like I can cover a basic apartment and cover my bus pass and my groceries off of my music. That's a crazy accomplishment. I think sometimes artists don't think about because they look at it as fame and rich as the destination not even just, you know, being able to stay playing the game. And I feel like every artist's first real goal in music should be the first one should be to make money. This is hard to make money in music. And I think the second goal should be to make a livable income music. Once you've done those two things then the sky's the limit, bro. Go for fame, go for riches, go for whatever you wanna go. But you can't hit those two goals, you know what I'm saying? You got a long, you got a long, long path to hell you. You know what I'm saying? Because those two things usually come for a lot of artists, at least the artists that build foundationally a lot faster than like the mega fame does. You know, like I know artists have been working for years and like they pay all their bills and offer just music, but they're not like super famous yet. You know what I'm saying? They're still on the way to that. So it's doable. You know what I'm saying? We've seen it. We've talked to clients that are like, you'll talk to them and you get online, like they're not moving crazy but then they're showing you, I'm making six bands a month. You know, I'm making four bands. This ain't, I ain't rich, but this is the equivalent to a person with a good degree. You know what I'm saying? Would they get paid to come out of college and not just make music all day? So yeah, man, the path is different, but there's a lot of different ways to make money in this shit. If you willing to like, you know, walk the unbeaten paths a little bit, 100%. Let me take a quick second to say if you're an artist trying to blow your music up or if you're a manager, a music professional in general, trying to help an artist blow their music up, I have something that's a game changer for you and it's completely free. As you may know, we've helped multiple artists go from zero to hundreds of thousands of streams. We've helped multiple artists go from hundreds of thousands to millions of streams, chart on Billboard, GoViral, all of that stuff. And we've now made the way we've branded multiple artists and helped them go viral completely free step by step in Brandman Network. All you have to do is check out brandmannetwork.com. You apply, it's completely free, but the thing is we're not gonna let everybody in forever. So the faster you apply, the better your chance of getting accepted. Brandmannetwork.com, check it out, back to the video. Now, taking that into the next topic, right? Making money, moving right. The legendary Ellen John dropped some game on how he sold out every single show, how you can do it too. Now, I got the headlines pretty quick. I could have played bigger venues than I was playing at the start of my career. But Howard said, no, you have to go out and play second on the bill to great artists like Leon Russell and Derek and the Dominoes in areas where you're not so popular and you have to get the experience of playing to another audience that isn't your audience. Also, when you're in places like New York and Los Angeles and you can sell out big venues, we're gonna put you in smaller venues and create a ticket craziness. So you sell out straight away, I know we can get a ticket. That means the next time you come around, you're gonna sell out a bigger venue. If you're good and you're building your career, just take it in stages. And then when you do play big venues, you will really relish it and you'll be ready for it. Playing somewhere like that and you're not ready is a disaster waiting to happen. I've been around for a long time, 50 years, and I can tell you that's the truth. Just take it easy, know what you can do, and then build up to playing something special, but don't do it straight away. Don't. I'm rocking, man. Is that your only song you know by? Yeah, but I'm singing the one with him in your boat. Oh, man, that's funny. That makes a lot of sense. That's hilarious. Obviously a lot of game in what he just said, key term to me is just patience, right? Being willing to go the steps versus just hopping up to something that, just because you can do it, because you'd rather do it a lot of times than just do it once. Yeah, one big time. One big time. It sounds like whoever he was giving him that game was seasoned, I don't know what those people are called, was seasoned, I guess, talent development for tour stuff, even a lot of the advice were hey, let's not make you the headliner, let's put you second to some acts because you need to, one, get exposed to the audience. It's not your audience. And two, you need to learn how to win over a crowd that isn't your crowd, you know what I'm saying? Things that like, you know, that's like really good advice in the show world, you know? Cause to his point, it's like, hey, I could feed my ego and go straight for my crowd and kill it, but these skills I'll learn from putting my 70s position gonna make me longevity. Cause anybody can perform in a crowd full of their own fans, everybody can't perform in front of people that don't know them, you know what I'm saying? Any artist now that does like showcases and things, you know how hard it is to perform in front of a room with people that aren't there for you, you know what I'm saying? Drake at Camp Flock, no. Great example, actually, yeah, exactly. It's a hard thing to do, so, but it's a skill set, like if you are an artist that's playing on being in this forever, you're always gonna run into that wall, right? Like you're always gonna hit the wall of like, hey, I'm performing for someone that doesn't know me. Cause even like someone like, like I said, Drake, Drake hit it randomly going to Camp Flock, you know, he didn't expect that. But then I even think about like, every time my artist pops up, pops the first thing I do is take him to like, Jay Leno or some night show. And you think the people on Jay Leno are listening to go over a little on a regular basis? No, she gotta walk in this building and win over this crowd of people that probably don't listen to her on a regular basis. So even like, like the bigger you get or the longer you stay in this, you always gonna hit a situation as an artist where you're performing for people that don't know who you are. It's gonna happen one way or another. So I think it's a valuable skill set to learn. So yeah, man, he was spitting on this, man. The demand part, I think is crazy too. Cause it sounds like he's saying like, hey, I know I can sell out 5,000, but let's go up probably more than that. I feel like it's disrespectful numbers to him, but you know what I'm saying? I can sell out, I know I can sell out 5,000, but I'm gonna go do 3,000 because I know the 3,000 is gonna sell out. So it's gonna look good for me and my, and the venue, the 2,000 people that could have got in that can't come be anxious about and get into the next one and make sure they cap when the next ticket come around. And I also can still use this opportunity to build a good relationship with the venue and the people that work the venue and the promoters in the city and things like that. So when I come back around, my overall experience from promotion to performance is gonna be even better because I already built the foundational work to make sure the next one is great, right? So now that 2,000 people that couldn't get in are gonna be down to pay a higher ticket price because they couldn't get into the last one and the experience is better, crazy. I think that's exactly it, that's exactly it because a lot of people are prone to try to get as much money as they can in the short term but leaving some money on the table, leaving some of that brand equity, allowing that energy to build up is a long-term play that starts to train your fan base on, hey man, when I come to town it ain't nothing to play with. Like people knew when Beyonce tickets went on, all these things about to go. Like the one they knew they were gonna be expensive and they knew that even though when they found out how expensive they were, they still knew that them things were gonna sell out. You just know in your head. And at some point there might be moments where it's not necessarily true at all selling as fast as you think but the psychology is already built, right? So establishing that type of behavior that when I say that they're scarcity it really is scarcity, right? And now having people experience not being able to get in and even sharing those stories of people not being able to get in low key on the back end. That's what your PR team or your management team might be doing. Then put out that word when I come to town. Get your shit together. Get your shit together. Period, all right? So now I love all of this. I love all of this and it goes back to that conversation of people who do want to go the traditional route and go for the big dream and visibility that, hey, yeah, if you wanna be that you are gonna have to be able to perform in front of different crowds. And you can't get stuck in this circle and cycle of just playing to the crowd that loves you. Yeah, man. It's dangerous. It's stunt show growth and like if you are growing as an artist it's an unavoidable situation being in front of people that don't know you. So why not try to learn the skill as fast as you can? Cause it's the same muscle, man. Trying to figure out how to win over a crowd of 10 people that didn't come to this showcase for you is the exact same muscle. It takes to win over a crowd of 2,000 people when you open up for bigger artists in the future. You know what I'm saying? Like exact same muscle, bigger people. So, yeah, man. I think that's an underrated. I don't know. I think performing skills in general underrated. We always talk about music development and like overall talent development. I feel like in a different world, man, I should have been a performance talent developer, man. Cause I'd be seeing the holds and motherfuckers performance strategy, bro. Like, and I was like, I could get you so right, bro. But you're not gonna pay me enough for it. But I could do it. You know what I'm saying? But yeah, I would definitely put down the list, bro. Like you said, like, yo, like let's create long-term demand, which is a long-term play that you gotta believe in yourself for. Cause like you said, like if I feel like I ain't gonna be here next year, no, I'm capping right now. If I feel like I'm gonna be here in the next five years plus, then you're doing yourself a great service. You know, like you're really just helping future you be a lot better. And then, yeah, like we already said, like you never go wrong with learning how to win over some strangers. You know, that's your whole, that's your whole job as an artist. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, no, I think that's it. I might want you to actually, I might want to add anything to that. Cause I'm a rocking man. With that same type of mentality, it alludes to this next clip with Cash Doll, but there's a couple of different angles when I see this. So I'm gonna say it like this. Cash Doll reveals how she played herself early on in her career. Oh, this is executive decision of God's, you know. It's the fly decision of God's. Oh, let the clip play. I was talking to people on my email flying to other cities myself. Yeah. By myself. Anything could happen to me, but I did all that stuff by myself. I didn't know the business. I didn't know, girl, you can get, somebody could come pick you up from the airport and they'll never see you again. Right. You know what I mean? Or you got them book at your hotel that can come up in there in the middle of the night. You know what I mean? Or you put them up to the club, tell them I some where your back in that they won't get you shit. You know, I did it on my own cause there's so much, it was people around me that love me. I was trying to teach me, but I wasn't ready to hear that. You gonna be ready when you ready. And when I finally was ready, that's when I sat there and said, oh, I gotta pay taxes on that, huh? Oh, I was just blowing that shit. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, shit. Damn. Oh, I got a show that on paper where I need a paper. I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking I cashed out. That don't mean nothing if you ain't got no credit. Transactions. I was booked. All right. That's the clip. Transactions. I would not see how she did, how she played herself. Now walk me through it. She spoke. I don't even think that she was speaking from an angle of flexing. Most artists have taken this from an angle of flexing and I think there is inspiration here, but I think she was speaking from a space and place of being real, including her bad decision-making. What she said is, hey, I didn't realize that you can go looking, looking for your back end on the show and not get that money. All right. You can be in a position, especially her as a woman, all right, where it's dangerous, people can pull up into your hotel room, right? Or you also get a ride from somebody and you never see that person again. Like some of this stuff, you can tell she was saying like, nah, like this happened type of thing, right? Exactly, yeah. But then she also said, hey, there was some people who were trying to tell me. Yeah. But she wasn't ready. So this goes to not listening to people who are giving you that advice, who are giving you that game, but you don't want to hear it for whatever reason. That's the area that she played herself in, all right? Where it just not taking the pieces of the game and not having your business in order early on, especially today, not for her necessarily when she was speaking for this period, but today there's a plethora of advice and things to take on. There's only, you should only be able to play yourself to a certain extent. Because of the plethora of information out there, right? Yeah. Now, with that being said, the flip side, trap star, Jolene, I love that name, in the comments section said, this makes me understand you really don't need a manager, but you can manage yourself. Now, war there, I don't know about need at all, but especially starting out, there's a lot you can handle and people do underestimate how much they can do by herself. And that's where you get hella respect for Cash Doll. Hey, I'm flying myself out. I'm booking my shows, I'm handling all this stuff. And then, of course, she does get the benefit of learning the game in and out on the way up. Yeah, and that's the fun part. Apparently, yes. I personally think that's the fun part. I don't think the fun part is learning the game. I think the fun part is knowing the game after you learned it. Because I went through these experiences, right? And saw it inside out, but I don't know, being inside sometimes ain't necessarily my cup of tea. Now, probably my first show for RSI work with, we booked it through Promoter, we got the car, we drove the Nashville. It was a lot of work, man, but I learned a lot, you know what I'm saying? And now I can use that information all these years later to make me money in connection. So, you know, good investment. Yes. I would say so. Great investment. Great investment, yeah. Again, using that, getting the investment side, you know what I mean? That OI, part of ROI, like that, actually the R, the return on the investment is the best part about it. That being up in an I, plus you were riding with R, she probably had like a little fun, you know what I mean? It felt like a moment beyond the road. She was just out there fucking it by herself, which much respect to her. Yeah, no, that's the crazy part. They know I would have went to a state for the first time by myself. You ain't got no friends, guys, no, no, no, come on, man. Particularly in her demographic too. Exactly. That says a lot. Now, again, with that being said, like learn the game inside and out, beautiful, that is something that many artists can do early on. And a lot of artists do not understand how much that they can do by themselves. However, she said, hey, yo, some of this stuff I didn't need to learn this way. So you want to get some things vicariously through others. There's this mentality that you have to know every single thing that's a part of your business from a practitioner standpoint. But do you believe, you know what I mean, when Jay-Z bought title, that he ever programmed a thing in his life? You know what I'm saying? I read a little one-pager, got the key points and was like, okay. All right, and I know that's a more extreme example, but I think we have to get accustomed to there are multiple ways of learning, all right? You do things hands-on a lot from the beginning and you should like do that where you can, but at some point the scale and it grow quickly, you're not gonna be in the weeds of every part of the business that is required of your new level of business. So you have to be able to learn through consultation, all right? So you might learn through hiring a consultant so they can teach you some things and then you have that advice and then you no longer need the consultant because you have seen enough reps and now you can hire somebody and watch them, right? Maybe you decided to do it in reverse, but really the consultant and way in is a good way or you have an advisor, somebody who's watching and they're trusted or whatever, or you just hire somebody who is a part of the business or you do like Jay-Z does oftentimes, he will partner with somebody who's an expert in that space. I don't know real estate, so I'm gonna go to the best real estate person in the game, I'm just making something up, right? And we're gonna start this real estate company and then I'm gonna learn and watch what he does and then I'm gonna decide one, do I wanna keep going in this game? Or two, do I wanna just get up out of this? And it's great because I've mitigated my risk by being with somebody who's already in there and I got a chance to learn on somebody else's dime. Well, no, not always someone else's dime, but I got to learn deeper then you'll get just from like an advisory call because I'm in business with them, right? Or a live nation, like looking at an agreement like that, so partnering to hedge some of the bet before you decide to go all the way is a great strategy. She could have probably did that early on, it sounded she had some people who knew some game, but much, much, much respect to her because she's alive and well today. And I mean, she did some stuff that most of these artists aren't gonna do. Yeah, that should work, man. Somebody on the other side of it, because it don't sound like a lot like booking on hotel but there's so many other nuances that go into it. You're thinking about distance from hotel to venue and things you wanna do and what's that gonna make the Uber cost be? And a lot of little things that kind of go into it, which I think to the anti point of that comment is why I don't think every artist should take that route. Like, sounds messed up, man, but all of y'all are in crazy organized. Some of you, our organization is not just showing suit. Some of you guys, the girls' communication is not just strong suit. Some of you guys, the girls' money management isn't just strong suit, right? A lot of little different factors that I would still point and say like, hey, artists need a manager at some point, right? I'm assuming she's talking about early stages of her career, like before she was probably somebody. And already said that stage where you don't really have anything going on. Yeah, you could do all this. We actually got a client, it's actually funny, one of our clients did DM me like a week ago and was like, yo, I'm thinking about making a fake management email for myself. Should I do it? And I was like, yeah, go for it. You know what I'm saying? Like, the next these motherfuckers, they find out. Let them learn that you don't have a manager when you don't pull it to the show to collect their money. Let that be when I figure out that you don't have one, you know what I'm saying? But if that client keeps moving and growing as he should, then it's gonna be a point where it's like, hey, it doesn't make sense if you be doing any of this because to your point, your return on investment is dwindling at this point from you handling this thing. We're in the beginning and nothing is going on. Return on investment is massive because you're not paying people for nothing. You know what I'm saying? You're learning things that you just didn't know. It's giving you cool stories to talk about in your fate or interview, you know, five years from now. But then once you like drape or something, let's not even take it that extreme. Once you like, who's a good like artist that's not drape level? Let's say, cause we talked about Keeglock last episode. Let's say you Keeglock, right? Keeglock ain't drape level, but he's big. He has a massive audience. Doesn't make sense for Keeglock to be booking his own hotels and calling his own Ubers and riding his own tours and collecting his own money. Hell no, because the risk that he's putting himself in as an artist is not worth the money that he's saving for doing those things. What's the risk? Well, ours and his demographic can hurt, you know what I'm saying? Being put in a situation where someone can, yeah, just hurt you, you know what I'm saying? Which if you out again and we all lose a job, you know what I'm saying? Whole infrastructure fall apart. I think time management, right? Hey, it's gonna take you 30 minutes to scroll through Airbnb to find the perfect Airbnb for all of us, but in that 30 minutes, you could have wrote a verse or, you know what I'm saying? Respond back to an artist we need you to collab with a went live on Instagram and talk to your audience or responded to comments, right? So then the usage of time becomes more valuable in certain areas than in others, right? So like I said, if I'm key gloss manager, I would much rather you be responding to comments than booking Airbnb. He's just like, no, that's what we gotta intern for. So he's like, go back to doing the part of your job that keeps this whole operation going, you know? And so I think there's a point where early in the artist's career makes sense to kind of balance those things. You don't have enough going on either side to what you realistically can't do both of those things. But there becomes a point where it doesn't make sense for you to do all of it and something has to start getting cut out. Which to the point of the artist, there are some artists who might be like, hey, I like booking my own Airbnb's for whatever reason. But I don't know. I don't like carrying, being the one to take the equipment to the venue. So I much rather get smarter, handle that for me and go handle setup and all that stuff. So to each their own, but I do think there is that diminishing return on doing the things to save money and time in the beginning that like eventually you have to kind of look at and go, okay, it makes more sense for me to put my time in other places because of what's gonna happen for that. But yeah, like I said, you rising, you growing, there's no reason you shouldn't. Like you should be doing all this stuff and going through the weeds to see how it turns out. Like my very first show, like it was a Nashville show for the artists I was managing, like we booked it. We drove there, you know what I'm saying? We booked the Airbnb's. We did all that shit. And I learned a lot about doing that at one point in time. And me feel like I could ride a tour. Like this wasn't that hard, you know what I'm saying? I could do this eight times, you know what I'm saying? Or 15 times or whatever. But it was like looking back on it now. Like I said, there's so many things I learned from those first few situations doing that that I can apply today. So that's why I said, if you're a growing artist, do it just to get the reps in and get the information. Once you are beyond that beginning artist phase, don't do that shit. Hire somebody to do it for you. Fair enough, fair enough. I can rock with that. Now let's switch it up to this clip right here. Because Ms. Fantasia, she airing it out, unfiltered. But we're gonna let Fantasia talk on that cause she's talking about her own personal experience. Do you have more money than we have Fantasia's? You don't know that. A lot of artists that you see, they look like they have it. And we smile and we come out and we put on a good show. But in real life, some of them are struggling and we don't have it. I'm just now building myself back up. I lost everything twice. Yeah, but you have more money than we have Fantasia's. You don't know that. I just needed you to hear that one more time. You don't know that? Get out of my pocket, shall I do it? So you got more money than we have, right? Man, she's like, that's the point I'm trying to make. Exactly, exactly. You just assuming and me saying that, hey, I don't have money or it's harder, but you got more money. That's the crazy part about this perception, right? Because we always look at classism and think about top down, but there's so many people who are top up classes, thinking, oh, your problem's on matter because you got more money than me. And then when it comes to a lot of these situations, the more artists, celebrity type situations, a lot of times they might not. Like you don't know, right? So the interesting part about this, like she said, I don't know when it broke into zero a couple of times and had to bounce back, figure my way back. And don't say I got more money than you because you don't know what I got. Now, we've heard plenty of real situations where artists that are notable are broke, right? And I think we think about the ones that have come and gone or you see some story, like what happened to that artist and how they go broke with all that money that they made in that short period of time. But what people miss is the Kanye West saying, I'm broke. See, Kanye, so Kanye, people don't even believe Kanye or process Kanye when he says it. He's like, no, when he said he was broke, he meant it. Like, you just like, oh yeah, but you're still rich. Yeah, he might be broke on a more expensive lifestyle, but to produce at the level of what he's trying to accomplish, he's broke. I need some money, bank loan me some money. Mark Zuckerberg, please, sir, give me some money. However, then there's some other artists that aren't out there. So I'm not gonna put them out there, right? Have been behind the scenes and heard certain people talk who are closer to these artists that are well known and they too are broke. Or they've been living off of label deals only, right? So it was like, is that really a lot of money? Like let's just say you get 10 mil from a label deal. Yeah, that's a lot of money. But if you're only living off of that and we know that that money has to be paid back. So yes, you're living a 10 million dollar lifestyle, but when that 10 million dollar lifestyle is alone, are you broke or are you not? You're standing on the ground as crumbling. Yeah, exactly, crumbling ground. So like, what's yours really ain't yours because it's all alone. So these people are building to perception, but they really can't cash in. And there's artists who finally escaped that velocity. But I think we underestimate how high you have to jump to get over that damn hill. You know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, you could be a legendary artist in your generation killing it and nobody has a doubt that you got money, but you really don't have money. And you're just lucky because you got that perception because I could put on a fake chain and no one would ever think it's fake because I'm me, which is also great and small in your part. I'm not against that at all. Hey, rock all the fake chains, save your money while building the perception for these folks. But on the other side that messes with you mentally because the world think you have this and you don't have this and you know that you're running on crumbling ground. Yeah, I remember maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago, listening to this TikToker speak on Clubhouse about how he was catching like this massive viral moment, like jumped up to like 5 million followers or something. But he was still working at like a clothing store in LA, like broke, you know what I'm saying? People were coming like, you the guy from TikTok, right? You the guy. I love your videos and blah, blah. And like how much it just will fuck with him because he was like, man, like, you know, like I should be better than this situation I'm in right now. Like shit's moving for me. And one thing too was actually kind of crazy about is like how much the industry itself helps that. No, I guess not help, but like age that, right? Cause if you think about an artist in the situation like Fantasia, getting free travel more than likely, right? Hey, we want you here. So we're gonna bring you out. So, hey, you hop on this jet. You look lit. Sank yo shit, right? Or you getting free clothes from sponsors. So you wearing all the best shit, it looks good, right? But you remember that, pay for it. So I think that there are certain things that come afforded with the superstar lifestyle that helps trap them in that perception, right? Cause like people naturally want to give you free things and put you in things and, you know, lots of companies will much rather pay you and product than exposure than an actual check. You know what I'm saying? Especially if it doesn't change the bigger you get. You know, people think that's an issue that only small credit have. No, that's an issue everybody has. Hey man, your audience is worth five million. Can I just give you a car? You know what I'm saying? Like can I just give you a car and like a chain and we call it even, you know what I'm saying? So, so it happens in all of them. I'll be so dem offended someone's tried to prove that shit on me, but that's just me. Right? What? My kind of car, a Honda Accord, Bugatti, maybe, maybe. It's a car that can be flipped and maintained value because it has that culture that's different. I was just thinking about the chain specifically. Oh yeah, the chain is super different probably. Cause to me it's like, pay you in the chain but it wasn't so I can't shit on you and you're not even a rapper. Sorry, that is racist. You can't say that. I got this chain. You can't offer that to me. Cause I will be mad because it's like, man, you are willing to help me look the part but not willing to actually help me be the part. Like you are willing to help me look rich but you will not help me become rich. That is a fact, sir. Yeah. To be the part takes more away from me. It's a lot easier for me to look. Helping you look the part brings more to me. Exactly. Cause everybody, other artists watching like, man, now I want a chain. Not knowing, hey man, this motherfucker, this motherfucker couldn't get a chain. You know what I'm saying? Like he only got it cause I fucked with him and I threw it to him for a 90% discount or to be on my YouTube channel or whatever that looks like. So, man, and I know we talk about it, man. It's really only an issue that seems like rappers and pop artists have to deal with. It's like that perception of being more grandiose than you really are. So I feel like they're the ones that fall into the trap the most. Yeah. You know, I don't think other, like I don't, I ain't never heard a country artist complain about those type of things or like a house music artist. Oh yeah, man. That's what I love about that, bro. They didn't build that culture. Hey, they be wearing the same brown shoes and boots that everybody else wear. They up the jeans, the plaid shirts. They might get a little bit more expensive but they only give it so much more expensive. Country artists drop bags on they built bookers in their shoes. I learned that once. I'm gonna spend a country artist who like his belt crazy. I draw like 20 bands on it. Flexing. Yeah. It was like flexing in his way. It was like the hat, the belt and the shoes. Everything else basically. So it doesn't get spent a little bit. Yeah. Man, gotta drop some money. I guess every artist got their itch in them. You know what I'm saying? To spend it. Yeah. I mean, everybody wanted to get money. A lot of people spend it on something. Yeah. But only two, like two, three genres specifically careers bank on it. You know what I'm saying? That's a fact. Yeah. So like their careers are really good. Like as a pop artist, your career is defined by like how opulent can you be as a rapper. Your career is definitely defined by how opulent you can be. Even artists that don't. A specific type of rapper. Even the ones that don't want it. Like J. Cole for that. I was just talking to somebody about this the other day. Do you remember when J. Cole did that collaboration with Bally, the shoe, the shoe brand? I forgot about that. Long got something. Because the shoe was ugly as fuck. It was ugly and it was expensive and it was outside his demographic, especially at that time. And I was like, who on J. Cole's team told you him like, hey, we need to partner with a high end shoe company and sell these $600 shoes to your fan base that's buying a dollar and a dream tour tickets. You created the wrong funnel. Like who put that together? You know what I'm saying? But I always thought it was interesting. Like man, even an artist like. He's ain't that bad, man. I'm just ugly. He's ain't that bad. I don't see people wear plenty uglier for more hype. They just didn't put enough hype be surrounding it. But J. Cole ain't exactly. I was just about to say that. J. Cole is not the artist that can convince me to wear ugly clothing. I was about to say, bro, like this whole game is about convincing people to wear ugly clothing and thinking it's cool. Bro, that's just like fucking glugs, glossy. I won't put this on the screen. Please, man. Please so everybody can be on my side. No, bro. This is not ugly enough. I don't remember nobody buying them. I ain't seen that. That's the marketing machine. Cahiers convinced people to wear far uglier than they should. That was wrong demographic wrong. Like J. Cole fans on my valise, you know what I'm saying? Especially sometimes when these came out, like what year do you come? Can you click on that one of them and see what year these came out? Let's see. This has to be like 20, like 15 or 16 or something. You gonna show? August 2015? 2015, bro. I was currently getting kicked out of college. And I remember looking at this and being like, I don't have $600 for this. Who the fuck is J. Cole saying he's talking to? Yeah, that's what it is, man. I hear it. I hear it. The ugly comes from that hate. You can't get them. So you call them bitches ugly anyways. It's like a dude who don't get the girl. She walk away. Man, I ain't wearing your old ugly ass, did he? I ain't wearing your old ugly ass. Hey, that's what it is. I ain't wearing your ugly ass. Shoes, old lugs, little glossy ass. That's all you doing, bro. Come on now. Come on now. That's just ugly. That's just like lugs. But it was interesting that even an artist like J. Cole, like with his brand archetype, still felt the need to jump into the high end space. So that's a rap thing in general. Like every rapper feels like at some point they have to cross over in a high end fashion. I wish y'all, there's so many other verticals y'all could do that with. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't have to always be fashion. I feel like dentistry and like forestry needs y'all. You know what I'm saying? You get a lot of money made off of like making like a deforestation deal with business or something. I don't know, man. It's something, man, but. So yeah. So those gentlemen, I think get impacted by the most. They have to deal with the most. But yeah. Yeah, man, like it sucks. It sucks being an artist like trapped in this. Traction. This character that you built for the world. You know what I'm saying? It's like almost like you just knocking on glass. I was like, oh, this ain't me. We're just like nah, bro. Like I just seen your last music video but you had on a $10,000 Gucci shirt. You good as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to hit none of that shit. Yeah. This is how fans react to it, bro. As soon as you're already talking planning, nigga, you just, I just seen you at a clip on the shave room throwing 50 bands at the strip club. You want me to feel bad for you? This was like the interview with Fantasia. Fantasia, you got my money to me, bro. It's just like, like she had to say, hold up, man. Like, get the fuck out of my pocket, bro. And that don't mean that this shit still don't hurt just because you ain't never lost $5 million. Don't mean they're losing $5 million. I don't know if that's the number. I'm just saying that. But it don't mean it don't hurt. This is the thing, bro. So there's a couple things. One, you don't know about having one money in you. Two, people always judge off of their personal context. Like you said, you don't, all right. Maybe you can say I got $500K and you only got $50K but you don't know what it's like to go from $50 million to $500K and feel that pain. All right? But that's what I, look, it always comes down to this. People don't really give a fuck about most of the stuff they complain about or pretend to have empathy for. All right? It's all about their personal experience. All right? So people don't care, oh, this rich kid is complaining about something but you gotta realize the context. If he's only been rich in his life and he feels ex-pain, it's contextual to his experience. That's the real thing. It's real for him. Your stuff, all right, is real for you. You feel like, oh, that's a great position to be in. Well, you ain't been in that position yet. And that's only gonna be so great because it's coming from where you came from. But that's probably someone who had it worse than you and wouldn't complain about your stuff. All right? So people spew all this stuff like they do on social media or in all that stuff. But the reality is people care way more about a paper cut on their finger than they do a child in a sweatshop across the world. What the fuck? In that moment. What the fuck? Yeah, you got all this stuff you say you complain about but in that moment you get that paper cut. It's all you think about. As small as that pain might be contextually you care about your own. And I mean, I think as a musician they get the worst of that because you have people who are giving you rich people dismissiveness when you don't have rich people experience on the back end. Yeah, it's crazy too, bro. It comes as soon as you start cracking like a million views on anything. It's like, oh, it must be paid. Fuck you when you're rich, you're rich n***a problems. Like, oh, bro, like what? Yup. Well, this is just a job. People forget this is still just a job in many ways. But I kind of feel it though, man. I told the story on a different episode about the first time I ever seen a rapper like Check His Bank account in public. That didn't fuck me up too, man. It just shattered my whole reality. That's the illusion working, right? Yeah, yeah. That's the illusion working, but man. We got a mature path that allowed these artists to be real people, spread their wings. I remember August Alcina talking about people asking him for money. And he was like, bro, my mom's still living the hood. Like, I haven't seen a check yet. Like, I actually haven't seen it. But you have to worry about me giving you money. It's like, my mom's still living the hood. I have not, like, gotten myself into a better position. Yeah, yeah, bro. Shit crazy. Shit excited. But it's the whole that dick themselves there. Just know that's what comes with it. That's what comes with it. Now, on the other news, oh, this is the irony of it, actually. Yeah, but you have more money. That's why I look at it. I look at the screen and was like, oh. Yeah, but you have more money. We got to get into some of these comments real quick, right? So, you know, facts, you break even you're killing it really. Social media presents massive or nothing. But the reality is, if you can make a living off of music and pay your bills and eat off of it, just wow. Recognize how amazing that is. You didn't have to say that. Appreciate you, man. All right. Whoever that was. Black's hippie says, got to be a hustler outside of music if your music hit one bonus. What? No, hit one day and becomes lucrative. That's a bonus. But music isn't lucrative for a majority of artists. Do it for the love. It actually made a really good point. She does come from a different era of music artists. Well, like they weren't really super capping the way artists did because they were on everything. So that's a great point. Exactly. Don't let what you see to see you. There's a lot of behind the scenes that we don't see longevity in this music game requires a lot of effort. Now, there was one person where they say, y'all keep telling the truth. People won't listen and be more specific with names because if at least one of the people on Playlist don't really got it, I will be very surprised. I don't know what Playlist is. I'm guessing me Ray will play. So she just want her to start calling up broke artists. Yeah, which is why am I going to call out other people who are broke? That's messed up. Why am I going to put them out there like that? But it's funny. The artists she's talking about are taken care of. They don't have it. There's one person that they say, that's what I'm damn sure ain't talking about Pluto. I know that for sure. Never going to be talking about Pluto. Never going to be talking about Pluto. And that's what brings us to the next topic. Because that man Pluto said, he dropped 250 bands to break his music. Keep that in mind. So yeah, she with that show want to talk about Pluto. She want to talk about Pluto. Last year I was getting 3,500 shows at this time. And this show I'm getting 20 because I always wanted to see myself go up to here, nigga. I did this shit in a year. If you really on your grind, man, it can happen. The only thing you got to do is believe. So when I'm throwing numbers, I'm throwing numbers for the dude who ain't getting the 20 a show, who trying to get it to let them know. It didn't take me that much of a year. But the only thing, it did take a lot of hard work. It took 24 hours being in the studio. It took my girl being mad at me. It took me not being around my kids like I want to be. It took me doing interview after interview. It took me doing phone numbers. It took me doing drops for different DJs. It took me to go to the club. Throwing got them over a quarter million, just blowing it. Every time I go in the club, making that impression, making sure everybody on the music and doing it for a cause. You got a hot song. You give whatever for it, you know what I'm saying? So really, I wanted to spend my money, my own money out of my pocket every time I go into the club. It took a lot to get that 20. It just didn't come just from me just rapping in the studio the next day I performed. And they told me they was going to give me 20. Last year, I was getting 30. It's crazy, man. He literally is the anti to the last topic. Because he's like, hey, man, you know what I'm saying? I'm selling his audience, his rich lifestyle before I got it and it worked. But to be fair, he's spending it wisely for what his brand is, right? So we talk about some of these artists being broken not having the money. Well, what are they spending it on? Him, his was specific path. He was spending it to make more money. His goal was to go from 3,500 a show to 20K. And he did that in a year, doing exactly what he just did. So yes, in the audience, we know that a part of the perception is throwing money in the club, right? That can still look lit. But that's marketing, right? So he was spending money on marketing while in some of these cases, you're just talking about straight up maintaining lifestyle and perception, which is such a fine line, right? Such a fine line in Fantasia's demographic, I don't think would benefit from that perception like futures would, right? So that's a whole other thing. There's a lot of artists who are caught in that loop who don't get a direct impact and level of growth from appearing to be rich. Futures, and then the type of music you got, like, come on. That's what it is. And that's the environment that he wants his music to play in. You're throwing it in a strip club. I wanted to play in a strip club. So I'm setting the tone, setting the experience. So it's a little bit different. But I think bigger than that is just his mentality. He's talking about even the sacrifices that he made. I know a lot of people like to be like, hey, future. I got a lot of kids and I like to kind of give him like a footboy brand. But he said this right here is early on. I don't want to miss my kids. I mean, I'm not not be with my kids, but I got to work. He talked about it as a sacrifice, which I think I feel like me and kind of like get a word am I looking for? Like this for that a lot. Like the entrepreneurial man is like, no, just because I made the decision to do it. It don't mean that I don't miss the thing that I'm not doing. I might I really want to be at that birthday. This hurts me too. You think you're the only one hurt. You know what I mean? So for those people who are inspired by that and need to get that understanding that you are going to have to miss some of those things. And you want to have some of those discussions, which actually lead a lot back to what we were talking about before we started five. That's a little too deep for the day. We're going to wait till the brain expands a little bit more. It's a real thing. There's moments that you miss, right? So the way future moves, like people said, couldn't have been Pluto. I think it's very clear. This is why we questioned. I think that was last part why we were like, future wouldn't turn down a million dollars. He's very much so about his money and very strategic, although people wouldn't give future smart. A lot of people wouldn't think smart just because of his brand. You assume at the same time, you're not still stupid. But just being a street artist for whatever reason, like Jay-Z is like the only one they came out with a brand of people thinking he's smart from any kind of street hustle. That's true. I think Future's brand is getting better. Because I think the more people start to learn about how long he's really been around, because it's surprising. I saw this thread on Instagram the other day. It was like just songs that were written by artists and you didn't know it. And it was going through like Future on there, bro. Future wrote some stuff back then that I didn't even realize he was in the music industry yet, you know what I'm saying? And it's like, bro, like old Ludacris songs. He's in like the video for like Bubba Sparks and this new blue. Like a point in time when I didn't even know. I didn't even know he was in music industry yet, because I feel like for most like future fans, like he started to appear familiar around, you know, I don't know. Probably like, well, Rax, you know what I'm saying? When Rax first came out, that was the first time I ever heard of Future. That shit came out, you know, and that was like 2000, like 11, 10, 11, something like that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, definitely like 2010, 11. So it's like, like you said, bro, to be an artist that was like, let's do like the one he wrote was like Blueberry Yum Yum by Blueberry, that was the one I learned about. That's like 2004. So to be from 2004 to 2011, seven years of career, that's already impressive. Yeah. And then to go from that 2011 to today, which is another 13 years. That's also impressive. Like, oh, that shit is crazy. You know what I'm saying? Like when you think about it. This industry especially. Yeah. But remember, he came up with a dungeon family. Yeah, that's true. You know, like being around, you know, that different. He wasn't technically in it, but he saw some different things. And that probably is what allowed him to navigate and get that game. He just doesn't present like the rest of that dungeon family. You know, the people don't know where you came from because you're not presenting like where you came from. And that's where it shocks them. Yeah. Because then if you think about what Future does, and again, because of the category he's in, him, originally when they first came out, they didn't get the respect for the creativity that they had. He was like, oh, what's this Rumble Rapper? Like a lot of people got thrown in that category when it wasn't even all the same, right? And like, what is this? They're just making noise, dah, dah. But then if you rewind, and then you say, hey, some of his lineage is dungeon family. And then you look at an Andre and Celo and people like that. Mm-hmm. You know, then you sprinkle it with some street shit. You know what I mean? Just like get me talking about it like, I mean, we were street dudes, a lot of us. And we had street things going on, but we just didn't talk about it in our music. So it was just like you repackage the same type of creativity. So if, you know, in the future, I would love to see his story when that one come out. Yeah, his documentary on the cards. His would be dope, his would be dope. But yeah, man, look, like he said, some cases are spending money and that percept is making them go over. Some of them are spending to win, and it actually is helping them level up. But I think there is like just a fine line in how you do it. Strategic brand spending is what it's about. Like I said, like, I'm going to buy this $10,000 because I have two shows and an appearance that I can make while I'm making that money back versus I'm going to buy this $10,000 outfit to sit in the house. Thanks. One is going to help you go up. The other is just going to fuck you eventually, you know what I'm saying? So that's why I got it up. And we'll leave it at that for today. I'm Red Man Sean. And I'm Corey. And we out. Peace.