 My name is Corwin. I am the co-founder and the designer of the Bountains Network. We are just going to come and introduce ourselves. We want to keep this a perfect day and spend as little time with us talking as possible so that we can give you time to get us out of questions. And as we get started on the workshop activities, which are, by the way, going to last until next Monday, the Bountains will be on until next Monday. We'll get started on them today. I'll let you guys ask some questions and then give you guys help with any setup or anything that you need to do. So just to talk a little bit about the Bountains Network, Bountains Network is a platform that allows individuals to create projects and incentivize other individuals to complete those projects and get paid in good currency. We use these sort of incentive mechanisms for a variety of experiments and lately we've been training towards working with organizations and community-type structures to get those community leaders to incentivize their members to complete tasks, complete projects, to provide feedback to each other in a sort of decentralized manner, in a sort of a source manner. So we've actually done four DEF CON this year. Sorry, could you predict a little bit more? Yes, sorry. One of the things that we've done for DEF CON this year is actually set up a Bountains Network specifically for this DEF CON so that you go to japan.bountains.network and you will be able to see our Bountains Explorer which is dedicated to the dedicated Boydus Conference specifically. There are already a ton of bounties of that. Anybody welcome to complete and earn some ETH, some DAI for doing certain tasks around the conference. But this is also where we will be hosting the bounties that will be created for this workshop in particular. And here I can just find the information about myself and I'll let Zach himself in the room. Hi everybody, I'm Zach Kalman. I'm the product manager for RIMBLE. RIMBLE is an open source library of creator components, design patterns, and UX guides to help you make DAX that everyone can use. The Bounties Network and RIMBLE are taking off this little experiment to decentralize problem solving today with the goal of uncovering new UX patterns that might help improve DAX usability. RIMBLE is a research driven offering and we are constantly researching UX problems that are common among DAX and prototyping and testing potential solutions with users. And in doing that we've uncovered a number of challenges that people in this room might be familiar with but we want to bring a community around to coalesce around creative solutions. And so we're partnering with Bounties on this initiative to incentivize this collaborative generation of these creative and effective UX solutions in response to these bounties. So Corwin's going to talk a little bit about the bounties themselves and then we'll get into the need to kind of substance the prompts. Like Corwin said, we are going to try to keep this pretty casual and pretty quick because we want you guys to start talking about this. People in this room are going to do the interesting work here between now and Monday so we want to make ourselves available for questions but also just have you guys start to talk to each other about potential ideas as well. So Corwin's going to talk about the kind of structure a little bit of the bounties. So for this workshop we have four bounties that we've created for you guys to sort of stick on. Just out of curiosity, who in this room has an interest or experience currently works as... Couldn't hear it because the door was open. What? Couldn't hear it because the door was open. I'll say it again. Alright, so we have four bounties that we've created for this workshop and they're centered around design and UX and front-end and usability for DAFs. Can I get just a brief show of hands of who works in any of those areas who has a keen interest in any of those areas? Cool. Great, so what we want to do as we introduce these bounties is encourage you, you aren't extremely technical, you don't have a background in design, background in UX. I would encourage you all to still attempt to submit to these bounties. We're kind of structuring them so that you are being incentivized to participate and then there's larger incentives for people who want to go that step further to kind of go above and beyond in their solutions. So what I want to do is just talk about the submission requirements and the evaluation criteria as we introduce each of these bounties. So like Zach said, each of these bounties comes out of research that RIMBLE has done around usability problems that have been identified in DAFs common usability problems. And so we've created a prompt for four of these usability issues that we've identified and the first of these is onboarding new DAF users. So the submission requirements, and I'll just kind of go through this briefly and then show you what the other bounties are because the submission requirements and evaluation criteria for each of these bounties is going to be fairly similar. Like I said before, we want as many people to be able to participate as possible. So the minimum requirements for submission to each of these bounties is going to be a purely articulated written explanation of your solution and the pain points that it attempts to solve from the prompt and if possible some sort of visual accompaniment to that written explanation to sort of help you explain what your solution is and how you came to it. Ideal submissions would include design files illustrating user flows, prototypes, working demos, links to source code. Use of the RIMBOL component library is encouraged for those who are a little bit more technical and are curious or willing to experiment with that. It's really easy to get set up and we have the guys up here that can help you do that. For evaluation criteria, so this is how we're going to be evaluating each of those submissions to these bounties. I won't read through all of them there because they're available to you, but essentially does your solution provide a new and improved approach to these common usability problems? Because of that, can we expect users to be able to accomplish the tasks that they need to accomplish? Can the pattern be applied to a wide range of contexts? Not all dApps share the same usability concerns, but if you come up with a solution that can be applied to more than one context, then that's always plus implementation fidelity. So again, we want everyone to be able to participate, so technical implementations and high fidelity submissions are not a requirement. You can keep things simple, you can keep your submissions limited to just abstractions of ideas that you thought through, but you get bonus points if your submission is particularly complete and well thought through and thorough and has deliverable that are attached to that submission that can kind of show off what you have thought of and what you've built. The criteria are going to be accessibility and error handling, so is your prior students accessible? Consider states that a user might encounter when they come into contact with these patterns. These are more directed towards the more technical minded folks. So just to go through the props really quickly, so the first one is going to be about onboarding new dApp users. The second is going to be about smart contract interaction. The third is going to be about transaction states. And the fourth is going to be about the address explanation. So all of that kind of expand upon what each of those bounties are, what the prompts are and how they sort of came to be, how the prompts came up. So we tried to put a pretty good amount of context into the text of the bounties themselves, so I encourage everyone to get a view and to open them up and read through. I'm not going to go through like read through these line by line in the interest of time, but it could be a helpful reference. So the first one here is onboarding new dApp users. Rumble's research has told us something that probably everyone in this room knows very well that it is really, really hard for someone new to have the area to use in dApp. So the typical onboarding workflow has tons of pitfalls and areas for potential failure and abandonment and frustration. So the process usually at a high level including something like connecting to a wallet, signing in to a wallet, adding funds, connecting the wallet to the dApp and then proceeding to try to accomplish whatever they were originally attempting to do is a process that we have seen lots of attempted solutions, some more successful than others, and we think we'd all agree that this is a major pain point and one that is certainly confirmed as a challenge through Rumble's research. Unfortunately for us, none of these are, there's no one size fits all and global onboarding solution, and each application brings its own context and its own user goals that it's trying to fulfill. And it's really having its own, each application has its own conversation with the user and this is where I plug my friend Ryan's workshop I think on Thursday on conversational design later on this week. So the challenge here is to create a reusable pattern or set of patterns to improve upon some aspect of the onboarding workflow. This could be a model of the entire onboarding process or just a novel approach to some portion of it. So, you know, we have a laundry list of relevant scenarios that could be accounted for here. Checking for whether you're taking a browser or checking for a connected wallet and different scenarios involved there. Checking for specific network, signing a wallet message, funding the wallet and funding the wallet in different ways, getting the balance of an ETH address, displaying current ETH price or current gas price. So I just want to reiterate, we aren't saying this prompt is to create a perfect and onboarding flow. If you have that, that would be an amazing submission to this bounty. But improving in a novel way on any aspect or angle on that workflow is going to be valuable and collectively we're all doing that. We think that there's a tremendous opportunity here. There's also an opportunity for, if you have friends in the room or if you have any interest in collaborating, to sort of take these prompts piecemeal and sort of say, you know, I'm interested in this part of the process, this person is interested in this part of the process. Is there an opportunity for you to collaborate on a solution in an attempt to submit something that's a little bit more high caliber because there are going to be prizes that are larger than just the payout that you're going to receive for your submission being accepted. And I'll go over that at the end. So the second prompt is on smart contract interactions. So, on-chain interactions with smart contracts typically introduce some levels of complexity that are greater than just a basic wallet-to-wallet transaction experience for users. And our teams and users and users would all collectively benefit from having a set of consistent patterns for a lot of that common functionality associated with that process. Things that we've seen come up in our research. There are estimating gas costs, dealing with transaction time, but we've also looked at more complex end-to-end workflows like opening CDP. So similarly to the previous prompt, if you have a novel approach to any one aspect to smart contract interaction user experience, whether that's just one of those types of individual functionalities such as estimating gas price or a new approach to an entire workflow, opening a CDP, an ERC-20 token swap, all of those would be fantastic submission ideas for this prompt. So again, we've kind of included a little bit of a laundry list of possible ideas, but these aren't necessarily constraints. A place to get started. The third prompt is on transactions states, this is another one that has come up over and over again in our user research that everyone, nearly everyone we've talked to has expressed concern or lack of confidence around transactions. They're permanent, they're scary, they involve your money, and that creates a lot of tension and nervousness about that anxiety among users. If you're in this room, you probably know to look at EtherScan or MetaMask to understand more about the transaction, but a lot of users who aren't as familiar don't know to do that. So how can we create a set of patterns that can, that builders can use to provide a more informative experience that alleviates anxiety during the transaction process to help people understand more about what is happening without overloading them with information and accounting for different contexts? Some more information is needed, some more less information. So here we reference some potential, we can get into it, it's okay. But some of the things, some of those scenarios might be a user rejecting a transaction or a transaction getting rejected for low-gas, transaction start pending in the mempool to low-gas, resubmitting a transaction. So there's a lot of these kind of transaction-related scenarios that are severe pitfalls for the uninitiated user and really strong opportunities here. And then the last prompt we have is around wallet exploration, wallet address exploration. We recently performed an inventory of patterns, UI patterns, among a, you know, a pretty wide number of range of dApps for displaying information associated with an Ethereum address in the dApp. And we got this just huge, sprawling variance and type of information. Some were very simple displays of just an address and a balance and some were these rich displays of information including tokens and other assets and transaction histories and currency conversion. Lots and lots and lots of information. Again, each dApp has its own context and its own need and needs are all potentially very valid approaches but we've all benefited, I think, from more consistent patterns for displaying information associated with a wallet address in a dApp. And how can we start to create some of those models that recognizing each dApp has its own context but can we create elements that are recognizable to users and start to build some more of that confidence. So things we, possible scenarios to count for here might be wallet balance, recent transactions, dimension tokens, currency conversion to fiat, adding funds through a non-RAM. So again, we wanted to keep this short and put a lot of this into the bounties themselves because really we don't see this moment as what's important. What we see, where the value we see coming is in the work that hopefully you guys are going to do over the next week and we are here to answer questions now. We're here to be around to answer questions this week. Please feel free to put comments on the bounties themselves. We'll be keeping an eye on those. Twitter, really wherever you can reach us, we will be here to answer questions. Yeah, so just a few more housekeeping things before we open it up to any questions that you guys might have. So some requirements. We'll actually talk about the prizes first. So I've gone through some of the evaluation criteria for how we're going to be judging the submissions that anybody chooses to submit with their bounty fulfillment for any of these prompts. You're welcome to do one. You're welcome to do all of them. But basically, depending on that or based on that evaluation criteria, your submission will either be accepted or it won't. If it is accepted, you will receive the amount that you get in the payout for the bounty which is around $5.03. And this is just meaning having your submission be accepted that meets the minimum requirements again. So this is submissions that meet some of the criteria that will likely be accepted. You don't need to check every single box because there are some of these evaluation criteria that are more geared towards the technical folks in the room. But there's kind of a second tier of prizes that we want to give out for exceptional submissions. So these are going to be submissions that meet most, if not all, of the evaluation criteria. Sort of submissions that we see go above and beyond to provide demos, prototypes, examples of things that are maybe particularly innovative, particularly thoughtful, particularly thorough. And so for each prompt, what's going to happen is there's going to be a first prize winner and a second prize winner. The first prize is going to receive 0.5 for ETH and that's equivalent to $200 at the time of the activation of this bounty. And the second prize is going to receive 0.27 ETH, which is equivalent to $50 US. So we just really want to encourage, you know, we have that lower tier incentive because we want to encourage everyone to participate. You know, earn some ETH, have fun, talk to your colleagues about solutions that you have, ideas that you have. But then we also want to incentivize people that want to take that step further and really go team and explore solutions to some of these really common usability problems that you might identify. So some of the things we're going to need to participate are going to be a wallet and you're going to need to set up an account, sign up for an account on Valities Network. The sign up process for an account on Bounty Network is really straightforward. You essentially just link your wallet, you know, a minimum amount of information is really kind of up to you what information you want to provide and once you've done that you are free to submit to any of these bounties once your submission is ready. And again, there's a comment section on each of the bounties where you're welcome to ask questions. I will be receiving those since I was the one who created the bounties but we're going to be sort of collectively addressing each of those questions and those conversations can start on bounties or you can get in touch with us via Twitter or we'll get back to you we'll sort of be in conversation throughout the creation of the bounties active timeline which again is until next Monday. Also, we also encourage people to comment on other people's submissions. If you see someone submit something and because all of the submissions are going to be visible to everyone that's participating in this workshop if you see someone submitting some solution you know, tell them what you think about it tell them, ask them questions ask them, have you thought about this you know, because that really kind of opens doors and opportunities for collaboration which is really what Bounties Network is all about our focus is on community our focus is on collaboration and sort of incentivizing that and encouraging that and seeing in which ways we can use those mechanisms so please be as active as you can be and don't hold that so yeah, that's it any questions feel free to ask and as with the record many times if you want to stick around and start doing things like signing up for your account on Bounties Network reading the prompts you are perfectly welcome to do that and we'll be around to help you do that if you have any questions around setting up a wallet setting up your account and then you will also be around to answer questions about the specific prompts but the prompts will be active for the next week and you're welcome to work on them for that week once the deadline once you reach the deadline you will be accepting the submissions you'll be receiving your instantaneously once your submission is accepted and then we'll be contacting the first place and second place winners to receive those higher tier prizes for those exceptional submissions so any questions yes what's the percentage of Bounties that never gets even submitted to because I didn't even want to never get submissions don't know that off the top of my head but I can I can get back to you on that for sure Wall Park you guys Wall Park very few, very few a lot of the submissions or a lot of the Bounties Network that we created are in partnership with individuals in partnership with organizations because we've kind of created that grounds for experimenting since a lot of the Bounties come out of partnerships or events or conferences or efforts like that most of them see see activity and see the performance we don't see a lot of people at this point in time since Bounties Network is very young it's still in a very much better mental stage we don't see a lot of people creating Bounties just on their own so like we don't see a lot of people saying hey I'll pay you a zero point whatever if you're bringing pizza that actually happening although you could do that very easily but so yeah hi my name is Joey Rich this is my name I read all about NFTs and we'd love to talk to you about your great work on Bounties for our audience my question and maybe it's for the room this is $5 enough to get an engineer to actually make a submission and there's $50 and $100 at the beginning of the prize second question designer what do you people think no that was actually a good question so the reason we started off with like a lower submission payout for like the individual submissions is a couple reasons one is because the minimum sort of requirement for a submission is basically writing a paragraph about what you think of the potential solution or something maybe including a sketch of what that looks like and something very low fidelity and so for those less people who want to be able to reward them with something but we also recognize that for the people that are going to be spending more time and more effort in their submissions that's where the higher tier award comes in but this is actually a really great point because this is a problem that exists in the world where contest style freelancing I guess is what you could call it where you have a lot of people working who are not guaranteed to receive payment for anything this is something that is a huge problem on platforms that you see like Fiverr platforms that you see like Upwork like 99 designs where there's hundreds of people spending hours doing these things and they're not getting compensated that's something that we really care about that's something that we don't have a solution for right now that's something that we want to work towards a solution for so I just want to make sure to say that I also want to say that we are the type of platform and organization that is happy to have this conversation and if you in the room feel like you want to discuss openly about what a more reasonable payout would be for like those just initial credit submissions and as well as what those prizes might be for those exceptional submissions let's talk about it and we're totally willing to increase those and change those we're also willing to extend the deadline if you guys feel like the time given is not enough I will say one thing that we need to talk about was maybe having changing the prize to be a range and taking me to account the time and effort that has gone into the submission and paying the first prize amount increasing the first prize amount to account for those kinds of things so let's definitely have those conversations we're totally open to it and I feel like their hard work has gone un-rewarded and this is a problem that exists across all sorts of platforms that are sort of all this distributed remote decentralized work problem space and that's a conversation that we're interested in continuing to have Think the vote, have the room vote on the question I answered alone but let's see what the others say as well Yeah, who thinks that $5 is enough? Anyone? So I think a better question is $5 on that first submission because ultimately my submission to be a paragraph needs a two-minute sketch which I think that's fair Do you think it would be reasonable to maybe introduce additional tiers with additional criteria? Is that more reasonable? The submission reward is it could be zero it would be still okay The problem for me is I work as an designer and then my hourly rate I mentioned the winning solution should include the demos and prototypes and the clinician of error states and that's many hours and the best key scenario of $100 doesn't cover almost like a single hour and on top of that there's a risk that I will not even get that So I'm looking at that into hours, time to risk multiplier and that equals no Okay, that's totally fair Yeah, that's totally fair You know, one thing we had 111 people sign up for this workshop which obviously there's 111 people in this room which is great and can be a little bit more flexible with this So no, I hear you As a designer, I agree with you As a designer as we attempt to solve problems specifically for spaces like design and where are those kinds of projects and workflows and careers where do those fit into platforms like this and how do you address the problems that are innate to those spaces So again, you want to make sure that it's fair Also, one thing we're considering and this is not an excuse but one thing we are considering is that we are at the bottom of a bear market and offering half the beef and there's that potential that who says that it's never going to or who says that they know anything about the price of the beef But yeah, so let's like have that conversation, let's change the reward amounts I want everyone who participates to feel like it's fair and to feel like that they're not just doing this for nothing because ultimately that's how everyone feels that no one's going to do it One of the challenges with the, you know, making the criteria burdensome is that when we're talking about the challenges with the areas issues like error states are where a lot of those user failures are happening and so that was our rationale for elevating that as to the top level of evaluation criteria Normally that would probably be something as an afterthought in a competition like but just in the research that we've done that's where we see a lot of user failing and so we don't want that to be left behind in some of these solutions so I guess there's a little bit of an inherent tension in doing that but not necessarily but how do we make that work while and so maybe the answer is to make some of those evaluation criteria a little bit more flexible so that when we say how is it handling errors maybe we remove that from the like critical acceptance criteria but introduce it more as part of the prompt to recognize that that's part of the critical problems that we're solving so not necessarily saying you have to have comprehensive error state coverage in this or something like that Can I change the topic just for a minute to ask you a question Zach? I understand the problem that you're trying to solve with Rimbaud is to bring in non-blockchain users and to try and make the experience much easier for them I've just tried to use Grimbal app demo on my phone and it says your browser doesn't support our blockchain features and I'm just wondering why you assume that I have to have a wallet to be able to use your tools you must have put a lot of thought into that why do I have to have a wallet to use your tool? I mean that particular you don't have to use that is a demo of wallet specific that's not that's not Rimbaud's website or documentation or anything like that the tool is the component library itself for developers it's not it's meant for people No, but I think one of the big mistakes we make as a community is we assume that people A. understand what a wallet is and B. that they want to have a wallet and I think that's a huge that's a huge mistake absolutely we completely agree we completely agree with you I think we're at the point at this point in time what can be practically, right now what can we implement that's not what we already have which is wallets and the research is at those we have a guide we can connect on the UX guide on connecting to a wallet but I think better articulates our recommendations there I also want to say recently we found these other transactions that allows for new users who have a complicated process requiring to still be able to fulfill a bounty and basically what we do is we subsidize the gas fees for those users and so that's an example of a first step that's really cool and that's something we're looking to expand and to continue to experiment with is how can we use mechanisms like that because obviously there is a cost to the network and in the future hopefully people recognize the benefits outweigh the cost of things like gas and what not but until then there are things like meta-transactions that we can use to sort of offload some of that take some of that pressure off or use a side chip that's one thing we're talking about as well how did you decide about about engineering perspective because when you make a question for a broader answer and you have a lot of contributions to that you can have a lot of overlap on work somehow it's a very hard thing to do but somehow you can make the questions more specific and go filling them instead of having a few options with a broad scope that would really take a lot of times like I said there would be like a train or even a hundred of tasks that are going to be completed and don't need to do work on them anymore so in a few minutes or most of few hours I can make contribution that I am very sure it's going to be a concede and very good use of contributions for what you guys are asking it's much more secure for me to be a specific subject and try to win a prize for a broader perspective so breaking out into more specific counties that have more specific criteria just to build on this point I think the issue is working within the creative fields as part of the project so I think if you guys came to the front of the room and said you're going to do this for free everyone would be willing to do it as soon as you put a five dollar value as soon as you want consistency in our thinking so five dollars makes me feel attacked whereas you said hey do it for free I think everyone would be working right now instead of having these conversations so maybe you guys have to go back and look at what types of tasks that are actually geared it doesn't really work and that's like something that we're trying to figure out and that's something that I want to say first of all that I fucking love hearing all of this feedback from you guys because it's insight into how we can evolve the product and how we can it's affirming to hear you guys echo the same skepticism that I have the platform that I built for things like competition style anything really how do you make that fair can you make it fair how does it apply to specific skill sets does it work for some and not for others these are all questions that we're attempting to ask and that's why the founding network in particular is shifting our focus to be less on the sort of competition style freelancing platform and more about engaging with communities and getting communities to incentivize their community members to participate in some sort of collective collaborative action that sounds different than something like Fiverr which is like pay five bucks and you get a logo that's not what we want Boundies to be and that's not the direction that Boundies is to be in and so that's where if you have a chance just kind of I'd love that if you guys could go on and just check out some of the projects that we've done that are more like community oriented and getting partners and communities to work with us to incentivize community members to do things that benefit the community this this exercise in particular does resemble a little bit more of that competition kind of thing part of that comes from the fact that we have sort of this restriction this like a workshop type of and so that's not necessarily we're not necessarily saying that in this case what if we just get paper and some stuff and air stock just throwing out things and then in an hour say okay this is what we come up with maybe that's an idea just get your hands dirty and do something yeah well you have a week to do that and if you yeah the thing for me is I don't have a week because I have a very chair schedule so I don't know if everybody here has a whole week to spend but I would love to spend an hour with some people to come up with creative solutions and yeah we're absolutely welcome to do that and for the people who want to continue to engage in their conversation around these problems like I'd love to continue talking to you about that stuff those are the problems that we're trying to solve and they're hard and there's no clear answers and so I really appreciate everyone's to build on what Akil said I agree 100% and I agree with him as well I would do this a breakout rather and you probably put in on the wrong perspective like Akil was right saying if you put a price on it you're making that kind of an insult you should maybe focus on the intrinsic motivator like give something beyond the money like credit I don't know like you are going to put somewhere the visibility of somebody who has found the solution that is maybe for a designer that is entering the space a better solution than 5 bucks right right in this space we are like 200 designers and we know all each other it's a hyper technical space and we know that you need to know a lot you need to have studied a lot so it's a very specific kind of designer that can tackle these questions that you have so it's for specialized designers and again if you put a price on it you are pricing it wrong until you put the right price on it part of the goal in doing it this way was to try and get people that aren't necessarily that don't necessarily fall into that category and so you know we wanted people to come and participate and to think about these problems with us who maybe like first time users or what not who do run into these problems who maybe have like limited experience with DAPS and have run into these problems before and have thoughts about them that they would like to share can I just add sorry which one? Beltran Cameron and I are running a conference in 5 months in New York and if there are any designers who would like an incentive or bounty program that fits what you think is right we are completely open to an experiment in February this year in New York and so if you think we can do something that's better than $5 or $0 please tell us because we would love to run a bounty program during NFT NYC it suits what the community thinks is right thank you thank you yeah let's chat cool with that I think we'll just kind of let you guys go if you feel like you want to stay or have any questions about the bounty program in particular feel free and again I want to have a place to continue this discussion for those who care to continue the discussion around things like pricing and share rewards and things like that so let's what would be the best way to do that anybody help with top of their heads some kind of slack channel or telegram group or something like that I know there's everyone's in a million of those already but all of this feedback is valuable to me and I'm interested in hearing it and collecting it so the bounty is now alright I'll do that today I have Steven Pink redeem it he wrote a book on this that's right you're right it's called Drive autonomy master in purpose those are the three drives especially for creative kind of tasks for which he proves also that research proves that motivating through extrinsic motivators like money it's wrong you will not get the results as if you're using intrinsic motivators which is why I was suggesting you should look for other rewards or share could we totalize there can I have the bounty if we can join you can join the bounty slack so if you go to the bounty's network site actually that would be a great place to do it so I am actually going to do what you're suggesting I'm going to put up a bounty to continue this conversation and just have people that want to participate in the conversation and then there's also you have the option to join our slack which is like a community slack that the bounty's team has and we'd love to engage with you about these kinds of difficult problems is there like a rainbow X bounty channel and we recognize you know this was a very thoughtful discussion we hope you recognize we are kind of operating within the constraints of the conference schedule and that drove a little bit of the structure and planning this to be a week long kind of asynchronous thing as opposed to more of a dedicated person session we'd love to spend that time too and like I said before we are going to be here so you know grab one of us and we'd love to talk and encourage all of you guys to spend some time together if you are interested in participating look forward to seeing what people can come up with and I appreciate everybody's participation perhaps before people leave the room you get right at the conference on the board and people want to kind of pull a lesser on the topics it's a lot better opportunity