 Thank you very much for the kind words and thank you very much for inviting me as a keynote speaker. I would like to discuss today the narcissist's conflicted attitude to disability, illness, accidents, mishaps and how this ties in into the pandemic, into COVID-19. The pandemic we are all going through had elicited two types of responses and these responses are both among individuals and among collectives. There are two families of responses, grief related, responses of mourning, of grieving and the second group is narcissistic defenses. Recently, a group of mental health practitioners had suggested a neologism and new diagnosis, coronaphobia which encompasses extreme anxiety and phobia reactions to the coronavirus. They define corona phobia this way, an excessive triggered response or fear of contracting the virus causing COVID-19, leading to accompanied excessive concern over physiological symptoms, significant stress about personal and occupational loss, increased reassurance and safety-seeking behaviors and avoidance of public places and situations causing marked impairment in daily life functioning. Narcissists, especially somatic narcissists, the narcissists who are concerned with their bodies excessively, these narcissists are far more likely to experience coronaphobia or generalized anxiety disorders than the general population. But before we go to narcissistic defenses, which are becoming more and more widespread in the general population, before we go there, I think we need to discuss grief. The pandemic had taken away from us everything. It had taken away from us our habits, our lives, our livelihoods, our access to other people, our families, our familiar sites, our neighborhoods, our communities, our hope, everything, absolutely everything, and it took away everything abruptly, unexpectedly. So the grief, the mourning reaction is enormous. The Swiss American psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler-Ross suggested a five-stage model of grieving in her 1969 book On Death and Dying. Her model was actually inspired by her work with terminally ill patients. Similar models were suggested long before Kubler-Ross by Eric Lindemann, Colin Murray Parks, and John Baulby, among others. But her model, because it was very catchy and it had five stages and it made a lot of sense, her model caught on. And this is how we understand grief and mourning, the process of grieving nowadays. So let me apply each of the stages of this model to how people are reacting to the pandemic. Denial. The first stage of the model is denial. When we are confronted with a massive disaster that had taken away our lives, we tend to deny that anything untoward or unusual is happening. So we saw these reactions. People denying that the virus exists, there's no virus. People denying the diagnosis. People denying the mechanism of action. People are saying the medical knowledge is wrong. The statistics are skewed. It will go away soon. It's not serious as it is made out to be. It's a conspiracy. The next stage in the Kubler-Ross model is anger. As the pandemic persists, as the disease ravages millions of people, denial becomes impossible. Too many people around you are getting sick. Some people you know have died. How can you deny? You can't deny anymore. Instead, frustration sets in and frustration becomes aggression according to Dullard's frustration aggression hypothesis in 1939. What do you do with this aggression? You're frustrated. You're regressive. What do you do with it? You directed at other people. You directed at institutions. You directed at authority figures. Why me, you say? It's not fair. They're out to get me. How can this happen to me? Who is to blame? Why should this happen? It's a conspiracy. It's some malign endeavor to harm me, harm humanity. Claims of mistreatment, ronious guidance in efficiency, and discrimination mount. That's the anger phase. The third phase is bargaining. Gradually, the anger abates. It's ameliorated. Anxiety and anger are reduced. And then you start to bargain. You're bargaining with reality. You're bargaining with yourself. You're bargaining with other people. You're bargaining with authorities and institutions. You're bargaining with God. You attempt to mitigate the grief by avoiding the cause of the grief. So you try to change your lifestyle. You make various compromises. Here, I'm putting a mask. Here, I'm socially distancing. Please, I don't want to be infected. All these changes in lifestyle, in personal behavior, these are offered as sacrifices intended to secure health, to secure an extension of life expectancy. Very much like in the ancient primitive times, where people were sacrificing animals to the gods in order to secure health and longevity, religiosity, conspiracy theories, some forms of environmentalism, a belief, a surging belief in the occult or in esoteric practices, the attempts to use placebo or irrelevant medications, all these are variants of bargaining. They involve rampant, magical thinking. I could, and even the sentence, I will trade my life for his life. I will trade my life for her life. That's also bargaining. It's also trying to strike a deal, a transaction with someone, some supreme being, some power, the universe, fate, destiny. The next stage is depression, capitulation in the face of overwhelming odds, learned helplessness, hopelessness, owing to all pervasive and extreme uncertainty. People say, I'm so sad. Why should I bother with anything? I'm going to die soon. So what's the point? I miss my loved one. Why should I go on? I can't continue to live like this for much longer in the lockdown. During this fourth stage, which is depression, the individual despairs at the recognition of their own mortality, of their own helplessness, impotence, in the face of overwhelming odds, regulations, and nature. Body language and affect regulation, they're both impacted. Moodlability increases and sets in. The affected people suspend communication. They become schizoid, lone wolves isolated, avoiding all contacts, all interactions with the world, sinking into unhedonic inactivity. Finally, the last stage, those who made it, is the stage of acceptance. Finally, people become used to the pandemic. They become habituated to the new normal, to the natural or man-made disaster as an inevitable part of life. Life goes on. Time heals all wounds. Better give up the fight. A new narrative accommodates and incorporates the hitherto unthinkable and gives rise to tender tendrils of hope in a peace and restored emotional regulation. The cycle ends with people coexisting with the virus and the pandemic in the long term, because it's here with us to stay, whether we like it or not, it's not going away. This is the first group of reactions. They're known as grief reactions. At the same time, the pandemic provokes narcissistic defenses. Narcissistic defenses exist in every human being, whether he is or she is a narcissist or not. Narcissistic defenses are inculcated and triggered in early childhood, and they remain with us for life. They're intimately connected to healthy narcissism, but when they go out of hand, when they involve other pernicious processes, they become problematic. When narcissists fall victim to chronic or acute disease, when the narcissist survives a traffic accident, a natural disaster, they react in one of four typical ways, depending on the type of the narcissist. Number one, the schizotypal reaction. The belief that the narcissist predicament is a part of a larger cosmic plan, some blueprint that governs the narcissist's life and inexorably pushes and leads the narcissist to greatness, to a fulfillment of some mission. It's a form of magical thinking, of course, trying to imbue the meaningless pandemic with some meaning. The arbitrary, capricious, vicious, and cruel virus with some purpose. It's a hopeless mission, but it's one of the typical reactions in the face, typical narcissistic reactions, in the face of the unthinkable. The second type of reaction is narcissistic rage. Narcissistic rage is intended to allay, to defer, to ameliorate, to reduce feelings of helplessness, loss of control, and impotence, and to reestablish the narcissist's grandiose omnipotent self. This is frequently followed, such rage is frequently followed by a schizoid phase, withdrawal, avoidance, and then by a manic spurt of activity seeking attention, narcissistic supply, support of some kind. The third type of reaction is a paranoid reaction. The narcissist deludes himself that the natural disaster was not a disaster. Someone is out to get him, someone had planned it, the pandemic, the whole thing is contrived, powerful interests, some elite secretive cabals there at work, engineering this whole thing. The narcissist casts himself in the role of a victim, usually in the framework of some grand design, grand conspiracy, or as the outcome of merciless fate. Again, it involves magical thinking, it's a schizotypal element. And finally, the final type of reaction, the last type, is the masochistic reaction. In the wake of the illness, of the accident, of the disability, of the pandemic, the narcissist's constant anxiety is alleviated, and he is relieved, having been punished properly for his inherent worthlessness, evilness, and decadence. Narcissism is a compensatory mechanism. Deep inside, the narcissist feels inferior, he feels unworthy, he feels like a bad object, so the pandemic is a kind of cleansing, kind of catharsis. He had paid the price, the due price, and now he can proceed, gone with his life. More generally, narcissists hate weak people. They hate virulently, viscerally sick people. They hate it even more when the source of narcissistic supply ceases to function properly. So, if one of the narcissists circle of nearest and dearest intimate partner, children, colleagues, if one of them is struck by the pandemic, by COVID-19, struck by an accident, or by disability, or by chronic illness, and can no longer gratify the narcissist's wishes cater to his needs, the narcissist becomes disdainful, contemptuous, furious, disparaging. Most narcissists just move on, just abandon the dysfunctional intimate partner or colleague or children. They abandon the sick spouse, they find another. They find a healthier spouse, they abandon the sick colleague or the disabled colleague, and they move on to another firm. They can't abide by weakness and sickness, and they definitely cannot accept when their needs are not immediately attended to. They have a sense of entitlement. Some narcissists play the role of martyrs, victims, selfless saints, and they garner narcissistic supply as they treat the bedridden spouse as they help the sick or disabled or accident struck neighbor or colleague. They ostentatiously, they are ostentatiously altruistic and giving just to attract approbation, approval, and affirmation of their value and worth as people. The permanently disabled narcissist adopts one or more of these strategies, and we are likely to see these strategies in long COVID, when the effects of COVID continue for months and possibly years, we'll have to see. So in this case of long COVID, chronic illness, chronic disability, we have three possible defenses, narcissistic defenses. One, exaggerated helplessness, which justifies emotional blackmail and the kind of insidious dependence that cripples the caregivers. The narcissist is going to leverage his newfound disability and illness in order to extract benefits and favorable outcomes from his human environment. The second response is control freakery. Focus on control, obsession with control in a frenzied attempt to reassert the grandiose sense of omnipotence now gravely challenged by disability, in validity, being crippled, being sick, being bedridden, and so on and so forth. And the third reaction is sadism. Sadism which renders his victim, the narcissist victim, as helpless as the narcissist is and as frustrated as the narcissist feels. He wants to drag everyone to his condition to bring everyone down with him. Misery loves company and no one loves misery more than the narcissist. So when the narcissist is struck by a disease, by an accident, by a disability, he wants everyone around him to suffer with him, to commiserate, he wants to level the playing field, to normalize his disability. Everyone is helpless, everyone is sick, everyone is frustrated, so there is nothing really wrong with me. I am after all still perfect, still in control. Thank you for listening. It's in India. So as per her request, I just read the abstract once again for your information. And after that, we'll end the event for the day and we'll again start it up to some days with our three valuable speakers from Germany who were not here due to some sudden unavoidable work responsibilities. Dr. Bhakti Mulke, she was from India and she had a presentation. Her presentation was lip-sided intracranial epidemics. She's presenting in psychosis, a case report. She will definitely present in a moment, but she was not here. We'll again conduct this event within two weeks with our four to five speakers who were not available today for some work responsibilities. All the afters you submitted that we'll publish in the journals and we'll send the links within 15 walking days. And also certificates we'll provide you within two walking days. All the certificates will be sent to you through email and WhatsApp, mostly through email only. And also we'll announce our next event within five walking days. And that is also a webinar, as we know that the pandemic situation is going on. So we are unable to conduct any physical conference right now, but we are committed that within four to five months, we'll conduct a physical conference, physical conference very soon. And also we are at the physical conference, we'll provide pre-order accommodation to every speaker and delegates. And our physical conference will be conducted in the end of this year. But for the now, within two or three months, we'll again conduct online event with some new speakers, new delegates. So thank you very much and thank you very much for this lovely event and have a nice day. I think Jessica wants to ask something, if I see correctly. Absolutely. If it's okay, just a couple questions. Sam, I have a question for you. From the survivor community, a lot of domestic violence actually happens because of narcissistic abuse, it's narcissistic abuse or psychopath abuse and being able to kind of understand like that was part of my processes to discern, you know, who was I dealing with and what type of toxicity, because that's it's extremely important because you don't handle it and you guys are all professionals so you know they're not the same. Some of them might step back a little bit, especially the grandiose ones because they don't they don't want to get embarrassed. Whereas psychopaths in my experience are like, okay, it's game time and then they'll try to destroy you because that's just a game to them. My question is from a survivor perspective, one of the things that a lot of the people that I've worked with and also been on a parallel journey with, sometimes we have what's called like fleas. So like narc fleas, I'm sure that you've covered that in like all of your studies and all of your research and experience, perhaps even, but one of the things that was hardest for me in the beginning was I was convinced that I was a narcissist because I had dissociated from a lot of my emotions and since I was displaying what I thought was like the checklist of some of those things. And as you're reading or as you're talking, I was like, oh my goodness, it's time for me to reevaluate. And I think that that's something, I mean, my personal opinion is something to kind of address that at some point, everybody does have narcissistic traits. It's just a matter of if you're flowing, ebbing and flowing and if you have that awareness and that consciousness to say, this is what I'm doing right now, perhaps even in the survival mode, but this isn't healthy and then being able to adjust. And that's my experience-based response and I wanted to get your perspective on whether or not that's healthy or even accurate. Well, that's your lucky day because I'm the guy who coined narcissistic abuse and narcissistic fleas in 1995. Oh, I didn't know that. Thank you so much. Maybe it's my lucky day. I don't know. And I came up with these phrases because at the time in 1995, I realized that narcissistic abuse is fundamentally essentially different to other types of abuse because the narcissist targets the totality of the victim, not an aspect. Psychopaths are goal oriented. So psychopaths usually would target your money or they would want to have sex with you or they would want to have power over you and to use you as a proxy. Or you're right, some psychopaths, especially if they're a bit sadistic, they would toy with you as one, as a cat toys with a mouse and they would find it hilarious when you suffer and so on. But the narcissist targets absolutely everything, every trait you have, every behavior, every vulnerability pushes every button. It's total abuse, total environment abuse. So I had to coin a new phrase to describe it and I coined the phrase narcissistic abuse. At the same time, I coined the phrase narcissistic fleas and I was not aware of the work being done by Judith Herman at the time. Now I am. And there are numerous, numerous videos referring to your question on my YouTube channel, by the way. So I was not aware that Judith Herman was blurring the lines between borderline personality disorder and complex trauma. And Judith Herman and many, many other scholars afterwards had suggested that victims who are exposed to complex trauma, that means trauma that continues for an extended period of time, has many repeated instances and is of the same nature, like domestic violence. So they had suggested that these victims would tend to gradually adopt narcissistic and psychopathic behaviors and traits. And they would be indistinguishable from borderline people with borderline personality disorders and to some extent, narcissists and psychopaths. Now today, the latest thinking is that borderline personality disorder is actually a form of psychopathy. It's a form of, it's what is known as secondary psychopathy, not primary psychopathy. Secondary psychopaths are psychopaths that have access to emotions and have empathy. So it's a kind of a bizarre hybrid. And today we are reconceiving a borderline of secondary psychopathy. So if you put all of this together, you begin to realize that victims of abuse and all victims of narcissistic abuse suffer from CPTSD. They all have complex post-traumatic stress disorder. So if you put this together, you begin to realize that having been exposed to complex trauma, having developed reactive CPTSD, you actually ending up very close to the end of the spectrum when it comes to psychopathy, narcissism, grandiosity, borderline traits and so on. In other words, you're infected. It's contagious. Luckily for victims, it's reversible because this is what we call, this is what Milman, another scholar called situation and narcissism. It's something that is acquired. It's a coping strategy actually. You have to out narcissize a narcissist in order to survive. You have to think psychopathically in order to survive with a psychopath. So gradually becomes a second nature, becomes a habit. Luckily, it's totally reversible, totally. So within up to five years, these things go away because there's no foundation. In the typical victim, there's no foundation which exists in the narcissist or the psychopath. But it's the dynamic online, which is where I will end my very long response with apology. But what I'm witnessing online is extremely concerning, extremely worrying because I'm witnessing self-interested people, self-interested because they make money, a lot of money, perpetuating the victimhood status of people, perpetuating it, for example, by engaging in what we call splitting, telling the victim, you're all good and your abuser is all bad. You had nothing to do with it. You had no contribution. You were a magnet. You were a passive recipient of evil, demonic. I'm serious. There are people who equate narcissists with demons. They introduce religious overtones. And so there's this new thing of empaths. Empaths, they are self-aggrandizing and their alleged empathy or excess empathy is their claim to fame and they can do no wrong. And you can never argue with them or criticize them or point out that the victim, the victim abuser dyad is a complex feedback loop and the victim does contribute to her or his predicament and it would behoove the victim. It's very beneficial for the victim to have an unflinching look at her own psychology and so on and so forth. But if you dare say this online today, you are excommunicated and castigated and decapitate you. It's ISIS. Absolutely ISIS. It's a cult. I am extremely worried by this development because it involves millions of people. Not a joke. I'm extremely worried because these people will never exit the state of victimhood. Victimhood becomes its own reward. Victimhood becomes self-enhancing. It is a positive reinforcement. They are among like-minded people in echo chambers and they're being told that they're angelic. They're flawless. They're blemishless. This is the ultimate form of grandiosity. It's narcissism. They are becoming, they're pushed to become narcissists. And just to refer you to some work which I think you may find very interesting. Lately, a few months ago, I think in March or something, there was an article, a paper, an academic paper published and the title of the academic paper was The Tendency for Interpersonal Victimhood. The tendency for interpersonal victimhood is a new construct suggested by a group of Israeli scholars headed by a woman called Gabai, G-A-B-A-Y. So, T-I-V is a new construct. And what she says is exactly what I've been saying for well over 15 years. Given the wrong set of incentives, given the wrong set of reinforcements and incentives, victims become fixated in the victimhood phase and it becomes a dimension of identity. So, it's identity politics. It's exactly identity politics. I'm extremely worried by this, by these developments. But you're right in your observation that victims do evolve narcissistic and psychopathic traits and behaviors. I mean to add on to what you're saying, I think that's why I'm a coach rather than a therapist. Because for me, I still focus on like the end goal. I mean, I've been very grateful for all the therapists that I've worked with. But it's also what I needed at that point because I needed to sit to understand. Whereas from a coaching mentality, it's what is your end goal? So, at the end of it, there's always something that you're kind of focused towards. Because a lot of the people I found, you know, in the beginning, early stages of my coaching business, my intention was to help people out of that cycle. And a lot of them, they, once they identified themselves as a victim, they just, that was their identity. And so, they didn't know how to get out of that. And it was very difficult because, and that's why I deal with high tutors now. Because I'm very low. Now that you mentioned therapy, I'll say, I'll say one sentence, and then Dr. Cuervan wants to ask something. So I will say one sentence about therapy. Therapy was constructed ab initio. When the first therapist came on the scene, boiler, Freud, others, they constructed therapy ab initio as a set of perverse incentives, perverse incentives. Because the therapist has an incentive, financial incentive, to perpetuate the condition. If he is a moral person, if he is a more, if she or she is a moral person, then at best they will have a dissonance. I mean, it's good when the therapist struggles with herself to terminate the process. But many, many therapists are unscrupulous, absolutely unscrupulous. And they would perpetuate willy-nilly the victimhood state or the mental illness itself in order to make a lot more money. I've witnessed it. I'm not speculating. And the good therapists struggle. There's not therapists alive who would say, I don't want to make money, but they struggle. They have this moral dissonance and they kind of say to themselves, it's not okay. You should cut it off. You should, you know. But it's constructed on perverse incentives to start. Thank you for your sharing. And thank you so much for coming up with the Nurses' Stick Abuse and NERC Fleas, a game changer for a lot of people within the... And I read your blog entry. I read your blog entry about grief. And that was my presentation also. I have a couple extra steps in there, but I was laughing as soon as you started talking about it. I'm going to stand next to her. Dr. Prabhupada, I'm sorry that you had to wait. Yeah. Please. You wanted to ask something? Sam, thank you so much. My first question is which part of Russia you come from. Second is, you talked about denial. Denial of individual is one thing. Denial of the countries like Russia and more so China in terms of the number of COVID patients and origin of the virus specifically in China. What do you say about it? Have you been able to talk to your counterparts in China to talk about this denial thing which can create great social and psychological problem for the population there itself? I am not from Russia. I'm an Israeli. I teach in Russia, in the Balkans, in Nigeria and many other countries. There is a program known as CS. It's a consortium of universities. And this consortium of universities, including minor universities like Harvard and Princeton, they have an outreach program. And the outreach program is called CS. Center for International Advanced and Professional Studies. And I designed the syllabus for psychology and finance in this outreach program. So I teach all over the world. And in Russia, I teach in Rostov, which is in the south of Russia. Today, we no longer make a distinction between individual and collective in anything because we believe that the concept of individual, the concept of a divisible atom, which is the person, we believe this concept is bankrupt, is defunct. We believe each person is defined by his or her relationships to other people. In other words, we went back to the British object relations school in the 60s. So today, you rarely talk, I teach personality theory, for example. And I rarely talk about an individual as an isolated ideal construct that has internal processes, which are utterly independent of his milieu, of his environment, independent of his interpersonal relationships, independent of his workplace, independent of his society, of his culture, of his country, of his period, the period in history in which he's embedded. I mean, it's totally inane not to say insane to make these claims. So today, everything is relational. Because everything is relational, the boundary between collective and individual psychology is very blurred. And today, we do in scholarly articles and so on, we do diagnose pathologies of collectives. And we borrow words, we borrow the language of individual pathologies to describe collective pathologies. So denial would be a collective phenomenon, which is the equivalent of denial in individual. But because collectives involve many, many individuals, the denial would be verbalized. And we call this externalized denial. Denial can be unconscious, as you know, denial can be unconscious. But denial in some disorders can be externalized or verbalized. So for example, typical borderline, someone with borderline personality disorder, or typical psychopath, someone with extreme anti-social personality disorder, they would deny and their denial would not remain unconscious. They would externalize it. And the reason the borderline externalizes is because her personality is not coherent. She has its identity disturbance. Nothing is, you know, there's no unitary self. So there's no control. It's chaotic. But I think countries like China, countries like Russia, and countries like the United States under the early months of Donald Trump, the pandemic, Donald Trump was denying that there is anything. He said, it's nothing. It's going to go away. And you have many, many leaders nowadays, like Bolsonaro in Brazil, who claim that it's actually a flu, type of flu, you know? So I think these denials are best conceptualized in terms of borderline and anti-social denial. So they are actually, I'm sorry to say, psychopathic acts. It's a form of psychopathy. I'm sorry to say, it's politically incorrect. I hope YouTube will not strike this off. But it's a form of psychopathy, definitely, because it's goal oriented. It's externally verbalized. It reflects deep, deep uncompromising denial, and it's aggressive. It contains what we call reactance. In other words, it contains defiance. It's not the same, no, it's no in your face. And if you don't agree with me, I'll decapitate you. It's like, it's an aggressive no. It's a violent no. And these are the hallmarks of a psychopath. You tell a psychopath, for example, I think you're wrong, and you will see what I mean. The psychopath will deny that he's wrong. Then he will beat you up. Then he will verbalize it. He will repeat 10 times. I'm not wrong. I'm not wrong. I'm not wrong as he beats you up. So it's a kind of psychopathic reaction on a collective level. And the distinction is no longer maintained between individuals and collectives because relational approach to psychology. I hope I answered. Yes, so my question was that we must make it aware to the scientific community that these countries who are denying the people behind denial must be, you know, held responsible because they are doing a great injustice not only to the world, but to their own people. Of course. So I think that's what is required. And I will ask Jackson to make it aware of that, you know, these kind of, you know, conferences should go and serve that purpose of helping the humanity and making people aware of the facts. And what is the solution to that? Yes, I fully agree. Thank you very much. I think Jason is abandoning us. We are abandoned children. But you're still there. You're still there. I badmouth you. I smeared you, smeared campaign, apologies. Yeah, I can't blame him frankly. Too much lingo, too much jargon. Psychological defense. It's a defense against us. He's denying us. Okay. We should request and we should have a Jessica, Sam, you know, your pleasure. Get the contact details of each other. Your pleasure. It will be very important that we should make people, you know, help responsible and help those who are needy, you know, with pleasure. Congratulations, Jessica for 0.05. So I think my little daughter is also trying to go into gymnastics. So I think you will be a role model. I loved your presentation, by the way. I unfortunately missed yours, but I loved your presentation. I had a client. Thank you. No problem. Thank you, everyone. We have it here with you. If you send me your email ID, you know. Yes, I don't know your email. My email is like my name. Dr. Pawan, excuse me. I'll share your phone number, email ID to each and other. Oh, okay. I'll definitely share to WhatsApp and to email. And so that you will you'll make a talking and we'll end it with a sense and Jessica's Jessica's as well. Yes, thank you. I have a question for Johnson before you publish at least my article. I don't know about others. You must run it through us. Basically publishing it. Yeah, definitely. Actually, we are sending it to our some of our scientific committee and they will they'll first read it and it will go through a perfect procedure. After that, only if any correction will be required, then we'll again send to you and after the final PDF will be made then only after your approval, we'll publish it. So it will take up to 15 working days. We'll encounter with you. Gally, he will send you Gally. Do it other way around. Send it to us first and then send it to your expert. Definitely, definitely. That is the that is. version. Yeah, yeah, sure. I hope you had a good nap. Poor guy. I would like to thank our delegate also Dr. Christina. She was a participant in this event. Dr. Christina is a health psychologist and she's working she's working in the hospital of St. Maron and she was also a great speaker in international webinar, but this event to see was participated as a participant and she was also have some good speaking abilities and also has some experience in speaking. So in the next conference, we'll also would like to request Dr. Christina. She will join this, join the event as speaker. She's also now here. Dr. Christina, can you hear me? She's silent. Yeah, I think. Wisely, wisely, wisely. Thank you very much for this great day and we'll again contact, we'll again keep the contact with all of the all of you and thank you. The certificates will be distributed through the email and all the email ideas and phone numbers up for you as you as you are interested for Dr. Jessica and Dr. Samback. So we'll definitely have the contact details with each other. Thank you and thank you. Bye. Bye. Have a good day there. Stay safe.